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Anyone who has a child/children

(153 Posts)
holdenmcgroin1979 Sun 19-Aug-12 22:14:56

that hasn't vaccinated? Starting to think I am the only one as out of my group of friends I am the only one whose children aren't.

chocoluvva Mon 20-Aug-12 14:25:34

My DCs 13 and 15 have never had the MMR.

LeBFG Tue 21-Aug-12 15:49:59

Why are they not vaccinated holdenmcgroin?

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 08:43:26

Probably because she decided not to vaccinate them LeBFG.

Welcome to the board Holden. smile There are lots of people here who have opted for different vaccine schedules - delayed, more spaced out, selective vaccinators and people who haven't vaccinated at all. Some people aren't too happy about that but I'm sure you've had plenty of experience of that in real life anyway. Hope you stick around!

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 11:48:51

Ermm, bit circular don't you think bm? She chose not to vaccinate because she decided not too. A well considered argument, as usual.

By the way, you never did answer what the vaccination status for your children was (asked long ago on another thread). So, what is it?

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 11:58:05

One 'to' not 'too' obviously. Still waiting for a reply from holdenmcgroin....

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 11:58:23

You didn't ask why she 'chose' not to vaccinate them, you asked why they weren't vaccinated. They aren't vaccinated because she chose not to vaccinate them. Simple. Her reasons for that aren't really any of your business. You'll probably disagree with whatever reason she gives anyway.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 12:13:01

Oh stop being silly bm. She posted on here to tell the MN world she doesn't vaccinate. I asked a simple question 'why'. I take offense to your last sentence. A few posters on this board have given good reasons not to vaccinate - I wouldn't dare to presume she was just 'anti-vax' smile

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 12:18:24

smile

Machadaynu Wed 22-Aug-12 12:20:42

We've never got around to it. I took the kid for her first one and she got upset, so DP said she wanted to take her in future, so it's off my 'to-do' list, and seemingly has never cropped up on hers.

I think she has to be up-to-date to go to nursery though, so will have to get it sorted I suppose.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 12:27:02

Yeah, probably a good idea machadaynu.

LaVolcan Wed 22-Aug-12 12:31:44

She posted on here to tell the MN world she doesn't vaccinate.

How do you know this? What makes you think it wasn't a genuine question? She wonders if she's the only one - judging by the responses it looks as though she may well be.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 12:55:45

Ohh, 'Starting to think I am the only one as out of my group of friends I am the only one whose children aren't [vaccinated]' gives me the clue. Don't you agree this is announcing she doesn't vaccinate?

'What makes you think it wasn't a genuine question?' - absolutely nothing at all. I never insinuated that she was anything less than genuine. You're getting very touchy LaVolcan. I am genuinely interested as to why she has chosen not to vaccinate.

LaVolcan Wed 22-Aug-12 13:19:24

I think you're the one who is getting a tad touchy BFG.

I took the OPs statement at face value. How else should she have phrased it? Did you vaccinate your children yes/no? It's a bit blunt, and might elicite a response, 'non of your damn business' so to question if she is the only one softens it a bit.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 14:02:57

Err, I didn't say or even imply she was the only one. I also took her post at face value. Which is why I asked a perfectly simple and reasonable question.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 14:07:32

Oops, thought that was referring to me...heat getting to me. What a silly continuation however. I simply asked 'why' What's wrong with that?

BeaWheesht Wed 22-Aug-12 14:15:34

Ok, this thread is a bit mental is it not? Ask a simple question and all that...

OP - my kids are vaccinated but I did delay them and space them out. The health professionals I came into contact with were VERY anti me doing this so I can only imagine things must be tough if you don't vaccinate at all! You aren't the only one though.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 14:17:08

Did you have a reason for delaying and spacing them out Bea?

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 14:45:13

Why are you asking LeBFG? So you can find fault with her decision?

BeaWheesht Wed 22-Aug-12 14:46:34

Because I wanted to? ;)

Well quite a few of them were delayed because I wanted my kids to be 100% when they got them whereas the surgery do them unless temp consistently 38+ and they are lethargic and very ill.

Also spaced them out because I think its a lot for the immune system to handle all at once.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 15:11:16

Oh, bm. Jumping the gun as usual.

Bea I can understand why you delayed. Was it not easy to rebook very quickly? It does seem like they are given a lot at once. I'm surprised how well my DS was after each lot. Babies immune systems are surprisingly robust!

I know of two people who don't vaccinate OP (between them totalling eight children). You are not alone. One is religious and objects to things like GMOs, antibiotics and doctors as well as vaccines. The other is VERY woo and thinks her magic mud is more effective. Two contracted measles as teenagers and spent over a week in hospital. I have heard of posters on these boards whose DC have problems with their immune systems. Some have food allergies and would have/have reacted to the vaccines. There are many reasons why people don't vaccinate. I like to keep a mental record of why they chose to opt out.

LaVolcan Wed 22-Aug-12 15:21:34

Out of curiosity, why do you like to keep a mental record of why they choose to opt out?

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 16:45:59

It's a topic of interest. I was also a veggie once and like to know why others choose this lifestyle. I became very interested in vaccinations after assuming everyone vaccinated and then encountering the people mentioned in my last post. The risks of not vaccinating came home like a thump when the two teenagers fell ill a week after I visited their family with premmie DS (at that point unvaccinated). I knew they weren't vaccinated so my fault for the exposure. I then found MN and found others choose not to vaccinate as well. They do so for a myriad of reasons. Some valid, others based just on 'feelings'.

I want to know how much of why people choose not to vaccinate is a product of society and how much is truely personally decided. In France, people are fine with the MMR for example but make a fuss about heb B. Are you not interested in why people choose not to vaccinate?

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 16:50:50

How do you determine whether someone's reasons are valid or good?

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 16:54:34

I'll give you some examples: 'I have hayfever, my DC are likely to inherit this. I will not vaccinate as they may have a reaction'. Or, 'some of my friends don't vaccinate, there must be something wrong with the vaccine. I won't vaccinate'. Worse, 'I don't trust doctors. THe doctor says I should vaccinate. I will not do so'. Do you think these are good reasons bm?

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 17:13:14

I don't think it's up to me to decide whether they are good or bad tbh. I wouldn't tell someone not to vaccinate based on those reasons but then I wouldn't ever tell someone not to vaccinate for any reason! It's not my decision to make.

What about a child whose older sibling has been vaccine damaged? Is that a valid reason?

LaVolcan Wed 22-Aug-12 17:32:47

I don't think I have ever enquired as to whether people vaccinate or not, although occasionally the information is volunteered. I have never felt that it's any of my business. The majority of parents try to do the best for their children, and who am I to criticise if their ways differ from mine?

peanutMD Wed 22-Aug-12 17:42:26

Bloody hell OP asked a question and seems to have stumbled upon a rather childish argument.

Op there are many people on here who choose not to vaccinate for different reasons so toy are definitely not the only one, IRL however I don't know anyone who hasn't so think they may be spaced out across the country rather than concentrated to one area.

If you are looking for advice or support I would post a new thread a it appears this one had been hijacked grin

BeaWheesht Wed 22-Aug-12 18:17:03

In answer to the earlier question to me - no it wasn't easy to rebook - usually about a 4 week wait by which time they were ill again.

LeBFG Wed 22-Aug-12 18:38:17

What you are missing bm et al. is I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm not asking OP if she vaccinates - she volunteered it! I'm not going round with a clipboard asking everyone I meet if they vaccinate and if not, why the hell not! Far from it. I do many things with my DS that others disapprove of. But as this is an open forum I feel entitled to ask these questions given the right context.

Sorry if this appears to have derailed the thread. Thanks for the reply Bea.

Better get off this thread in case more things are read into my posts than were ever there. Blimin touchy lot.

Ds2 and ds3 are completely unvaccinated.

Many of the children we see regularly are unvaccinated as well (can think of 7 off the top of my head, and a bunch more who stopped after primary vaccinations).

Oh just remembered 2 more I know locally who are completely unvaccinated so that's 9.

I know many more that I don't see regularly.

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 18:53:52

That's quite a few saintly.

I was hoping you'd give an example of a 'good/valid' reason before you left BFG. Maybe another thread/another day.

Actually thought of 2 more that we see regularly - so that's 11!

The majority of those have at least part vaccinated siblings btw - before people start droning on about the crankosphere. So they have their reasons for changing their mind between siblings.

Tbh bumbley the threads the other week reminded me why I couldn't give a toss whether people think my reasons are valid or not. I can guarantee I will have read more than them and I am pretty likely to be suitably qualified (in their eyes - I couldn't care less what qualifications people have) to have made my decision. :shrugs:

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 21:01:46

smile

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:17:48

Oh crumbs! I didn't expect a fisticuffs on this thread! shock In answer to LeBFG's question, I chose not to vaccinate my children due to not being entirely comfortable with my children having chemicals and other nasty stuff in their bodies that may or may not work any way. I do feel like I am the only one that doesn't vaccinate, certainly in my circle or friends I am the only one with the guts to speak out and say I don't.

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 21:21:10

Don't worry holden, this is pretty tame in comparison to other threads on this subject smile

grin bumbley's correct; it is!

(you need to borrow some of my friends holden - I have just thought of 2 more potential but not sure whether they are or aren't confused ).

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:30:17

Thank you for giving me some hope BM, even though I am comfortable in my decision sometimes it is nice to know I am not the only one to be made to feel like a freak for not doing. I just want what's best for my children like any mother worth her salt but when you have people in your ear for months telling you your doing something wrong because your choice is different to theirs it does make you wonder. smile

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:31:15

Thank you saintlyjimjams. smile

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:35:22

If you could direct them to me i would be grateful grin

iggi777 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:40:26

Won't your children be safer if all your friends have been vaccinated?

We've only managed to catch childhood diseases (rubella and probably whooping cough) from vaccinated children so far. DS2 was exposed to (confirmed) whooping cough as a baby via unvaccinated children but he didn't catch it.

For measles yes I guess it is more likely to spread quickly via an unvaccinated group given the ease with which it spreads (although these are all individuals I know, they don't necessarily know each other).

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 21:47:05

Saintly, was it your DC that had mumps too or was that someone else?

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:47:07

Not at all iggi, as some vaccines shed, the recently vaccinated child can pass on the disease by sneezing or coughing on unvaccinated children or babies.

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 21:50:14

It is like playing russian roulette, however i would be happier my children fighting of diseases naturally than having it forced upon them.

DS3 was exposed bumbley (via a vaccinated child, oh and quite possibly all of them were expose via an unvaccinated child on another occasion - and that's another one I've just remembered grin ) but no-one showed any signs. I'm hoping they all had it an we asymptomatic - hard to tell in young children whether they've had it or not after an exposure really.

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 22:00:26

My youngest got whooping cough at three weeks old, we have never felt so outcast till all my other children got tested and came back negative, as soon as that happened all our "friends" came crawling out the woodwork again.

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 22:00:50

I remember someone posting about having mumps confirmed with a swab test (that they had to ask the doctor to do). Her children were unvaxed but there had been a 'mumps-like virus' going around the vaccinated children in school. Of course it couldn't possibly have been mumps for them! grin

Sossiges Wed 22-Aug-12 22:01:29

Would have joined in earlier but fell asleep putting dd to bed blush
My dd had her baby jabs but that was it and no.2 won't be having any at all. I don't care if people vaccinate or not, none of my business, so I don't tend to ask and therefore don't know if there are other unvaccinated children around, but I do know there is a support group for parents in my area, so there must be others locally who feel the same way.
Haven't seen a vaccination thread yet that didn't end in a bunfight grin

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 22:01:56

That's awful Holden.

LaVolcan Wed 22-Aug-12 22:03:24

Do you know where your youngest caught it from?

I never had mine vaccinated against whooping cough despite the HV trying to guilt trip me into it. My children never caught it; the only ones I know who did had been vaccinated.

bumbley - oh yes I remember as well, but not me!

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 22:09:58

No idea LaVolcan, I wish I knew.

holdenmcgroin1979 Wed 22-Aug-12 22:16:55

Did someone mention buns? I just fancy a nice cream bun now with icing on top. grin

bumbleymummy Wed 22-Aug-12 22:20:52

Oh, don't tempt me! I am in Google hell right now looking for a bathroom sink small enough to fit a new unit. I may have to numb the pain with a jar of nutella and a spoon!

LaVolcan Wed 22-Aug-12 22:23:51

Chocolate eclair for me...mmm yummy.

Sossiges Wed 22-Aug-12 22:27:03

Just fancying one of those doughnuts with jam and real dairy cream...slurp!

numbertaker Wed 22-Aug-12 23:12:16

my DS1 is vaccinated upto and including MMR, no boosters as MMR gave him a dose of measles that lasted 10 weels ish. Then he got a very serious auto-immune disease.

My DS2 is unvaxed, I have looked at vaccines for many years, I have read up how to nurse most of the childhood stuff, tetanus scares the shit out of me, IF i had not seen the damage done by vaccines I would happily vaccinate, I would prefer to vaccinate, but I am left in limbo.

We talked to head of immumisation about our family situation, he said he must advise to vaccinate, but could really understand why we are worried.

jazzandh Thu 23-Aug-12 20:37:34

DS1 is mostly vaxed - I delayed his schedule, gave him single measles at 6.

Ds2 has had the first lot at 6 months, then nothing since. The more I read, the less point I see to be honest. Will probably give him measles at some point.

We are a highly allergic family - and to date both DS seem to have escaped.....

I am vigilant regarding illness and watch carefully, and try not to expose others to potential illness, but I would do that when they have colds.

I find it aggravating, that virtually any other thing that you have done on the NHS, you have to sign a waiver after they have scared you with every possible thing that can go wrong.

they won't give my 65 year old insomniac mother sleeping tablets, as she may become addicted.

vaccinations on the other hand, are safe safe safe......jabs for all.......

It's called herd immunity for a reason....

sashh Fri 24-Aug-12 05:35:22

It is like playing russian roulette, however i would be happier my children fighting of diseases naturally than having it forced upon them.

Wow - just wow. Have you seen a child with measels? Whooping cough? Have you ever seen a child in ICU?

I said on another thread some people have very good, valid reasons not to vaccinate - but this is not a good reason.

seeker Fri 24-Aug-12 06:32:34

There are valid reasons not to vaccinate- but "never got around to it" or "there's no point" aren't valid reasons.

I'm old enough- just- to remember my mother's terror of polio. And to remember being in the middle of an outbreak of cholera in Italy. I have family members who died of TB. Without vaccination these would still be commonplace.

Oh, and not vaccinating against tetanus is, frankly, irresponsible. In the case of many illnesses, unvaccinated people can still rely on the majority vaccinated population protecting them. This does not apply to tetanus.

And how would you go about getting a single tetanus jab seeker? Or at least one without pertussis for a pre-teen?

Pray tell.

Machadaynu Fri 24-Aug-12 17:16:26

Kid is booked in smile

numbertaker Fri 24-Aug-12 18:42:08

I remember watching an advert of a baby near the edge of a cliff, and the message was 'would you put your child in danger' then vaccinate.

Well folks, I saw that, and took my kid along for all his vaccines, ONE TIME, and I would of called someone who did not a fooker for not vaccinating thier kid, until my child got ill, and sicker later on.

So dont give me the patronising crap, about being neglectful. I am so sorry that my child has blown the dream that vaccinations are totally safe, sorry they are not.

numbertaker Fri 24-Aug-12 18:42:42

*ON TIME

seeker Fri 24-Aug-12 18:48:30

I am very sorry about your son- i do hope he's better now.

Nobody has said that vaccines are totally safe. Nothing is. But they are safer than polio. Or diphtheria. Both of which were killers in my childhood, and now don't exist in this country.

I saw one with a lion about to eat a baby in a pushchair. I'd rather be able to have a conversation with my GP about alternatives to the schedule to be honest.

Seeker I'd be very interested to know how to get a single tetanus jab for an under ten year old btw.

seeker Fri 24-Aug-12 19:12:43

"Seeker I'd be very interested to know how to get a single tetanus jab for an under ten year old btw."

I don't know. Presumably you can pay for it?

Not very easily unfortunately. I can't as it would involve three trips to London which is impossible for us with a disabled child and too many £££'s.

Until recently you could get it on the NHS. Now you can't.

numbertaker Fri 24-Aug-12 20:36:37

@ jimjams...how do you cope with the tetanus fear thing. It dominates me every day. I carry around a massive first aid kit, with sugical grade tweezers, wound wash, homeopathy, and other things. I never let the kids wear above the knee shorts in-case they trip, i have educated them on thorns, splinters etc. My big worry is dog or cat bites, so I have memorized NHS treatment guidelines, did you know that a tetanus shot after a wound is useless, and you would need Tetanus immuno globlin, but most just give you a shot and send you home, potentially with tetanus. Tetanus only works after a full course. Even if you have a full course of Tetanus shots and your wound has horse crap or soil deep, they would still give you TIG anyway.

Oh, the happy land of non-vaxers.

numbertaker Fri 24-Aug-12 20:45:12

£130 a shot x 3 x 2 that makes £780 + train, all because you are so unfortunate as to have a history of vaccine traumas. Also its made by serum india, and I am not confident I want it travelling from india in possibly non-stable temperature containers.

TBH numbertaker I don't worry as much as I used to as tetanus injuries are so specific. I never worry about grazes for example. I do worry about splinters and dig them out with a sterile needle and am pleased to see blood. Also after having a panic attack about it one day my mum pointed out that she grew up on a farm without a tetanus shot - as did her 5 siblings. Until that moment I had absolutely no idea that she received her first vaccination as an adult.

But yes I would go to A&E and ask for (and check) for immunoglobulin for a deep puncture wound. I agree that in my experience (as an adult with more than 10 years since a booster) it's not given when it should be. And I sort of think that in some ways it might be safer to insist on the TIG that assume it's okay because of a previous tetanus shot. I guess they're more likely to give it to someone unvaccinated? I would worry about it a lot more if TIG didn't exist - although of course TIG has it's own risk. Splinters worry me more as harder to recognise the risk.

I do remember an alternative practitioner saying to me once if I was going to spend every minute worrying about tetanus then I should get the jab (this was when it was available).

I have my carer's health review soon I might ask then whether it's possible to give ds2 (now 10) a single shot. Although I didn't know about it travelling from India. Hmm. I would relatively happily give a DT as well - it's known to be a relatively safe vaccination, has been around a long time (need to check it's thimerosal free I guess).

I have had sleepless nights over tetanus, don't get me wrong - but the thought of giving pertussis worries me more.

silverfrog Fri 24-Aug-12 21:48:46

It was me with the mumps-like virus-ridden child grin

swab confirmed mumps. dd2's whole year was decimated with the virus (she was one of the last to catch it), and her school has the early years nursery/preschool in the same area as reception (dd2 was reception), and loads of the younger ones were also ill/off with the same thing.

I had to push really hard to get the doctor to swab dd2 - he was happy to send her home with 'mumps-like virus', until I told him I was concerned as mumps was notifiable, whereupon he sighed hugely, and called through for a swab kit.

ElaineBenes Sat 25-Aug-12 02:10:31

I think the op's children are very lucky that the friends they are mixing with are all vaccinated.

It's called herd immunity for a reason.

DementedHousewife Sat 25-Aug-12 09:48:04

My DC are unvaccinated.

Tabitha8 Sat 25-Aug-12 20:00:19

One child, unvaccinated and I know a few other people with unvaccinated children, too, of various ages.
Re herd immunity, Elaine: Who needs the vaccine to ensure herd immunity? Only the children? The parents? Grandparents? Neighbours? How many need to be vaccinated?

bumbleymummy Mon 27-Aug-12 19:25:28

Of course, silverfrog! How did I forget that? confused How are things with you anyway? Haven't seen you around for a while.

silverfrog Mon 27-Aug-12 20:03:59

all fine, thanks bumbley.

am reading a lot, but can't always post as am usually marooned on the sofa feeding ds - 5 weeks old tomorrow smile

bumbleymummy Mon 27-Aug-12 20:34:01

Congratulations! smile I knew you were due over the summer so I thought that a new snuggly little one may have had something to do with not seeing you! Hope everything is going well x

holdenmcgroin1979 Mon 27-Aug-12 21:13:54

sashh Yes i have witnessed whooping cough first hand, my baby daughter caught it at 4 weeks old and spent a week in hospital. She didn't however catch it from her siblings as all the tests they had (blood and mouth swabs) came back negative so it must have came from one of our vaccinated visitors as up until that point she hadn't been out the house apart from with her siblings in the garden. Funnily enough even though she caught it none of her siblings did even though they to are unvaccinated. This also kinda knocks the whole herd immunity thing on the head as being the only one out of my circle of friends who doesn't vaccinate either my friends or their vaccinated children made my daughter sick! I did wonder if it was something she picked up in hospital when she was born however the longest incubation period for this illness is 21 days and as she was 28 days there is very little chance of that being the cause.

ElaineBenes Tue 28-Aug-12 02:52:58

Kinda knocks the whole concept of contagious disease on the head as well. Maybe miasma theory is better?

JoTheHot Tue 28-Aug-12 08:01:44

How do you know the source wasn't one of the parents of your childrens' friends, or your partner, or...you?

Looks like the herd immunity thing lives to fight another day, and reduce infection among the unvaccinated.

holdenmcgroin1979 Tue 28-Aug-12 08:33:16

I know that it didn't come from myself or my partner as we both had to get tested as well (one of the nurses at the hospital who fully agreed and supported our decision not to vaccinate said all immediate family should get testing, as we don't vaccinate the DOH may investigate and for us to get tested to cover our own backs if nothing else). As it stands all my friends are of an age whereby they would have been vaccinated as children. Like Tabitha8 said in her post above, who needs to be vaccinated to ensure herd immunity? At the end of the day these illnesses are viruses! Anyone who does their research should know viruses mutate therefore rendering the vaccines useless as they are only designed to protect against one strain not several.

holdenmcgroin1979 Tue 28-Aug-12 08:33:50

get tested even.

JoTheHot Tue 28-Aug-12 09:10:33

To pick one glaring error, from what is a pretty wide choice: here we are discussing whooping cough, and you say, 'At the end of the day these illnesses are viruses!'. It's good to know you've done stuff all by way of background reading, before coming on here and spouting scientifically illiterate crap.

iggi777 Tue 28-Aug-12 09:21:57

Whooping cough vaccine wears off: therefore adults may well have had it. Not likely to kill you if you're 30 though.

ElaineBenes Tue 28-Aug-12 11:55:00

Just wondering - if whooping cough has an incubation period of 21 days, can you not test negative and still be the source of infection?

Im actually really skeptical about these stories from anti vaxers about how their kids all picked up vaccine preventable diseases from vaccinated kids. I think that herd immunity makes them feel really uncomfortable so they prefer to just deny its existence. But it's not a mythical concept, it's an empirically observed scientific fact.

ElaineBenes Tue 28-Aug-12 12:01:33

Good point Jo! That's the problem about google based research when you don't have a clue.

bumbleymummy Tue 28-Aug-12 12:27:15

What does picking up diseases from vaccinated kids have to do with denying herd immunity Elaine?

ElaineBenes Tue 28-Aug-12 12:40:11

Ask Holden. She thinks she's kinda knocked herd immunity on the head.

I agree though bumbley. I dont think they've 'knocked herd immunity on the head' either with these silly examples which are proof of zilch.

bumbleymummy Tue 28-Aug-12 12:56:07

I thought she was talking about the concept of herd immunity 'protecting' those who are not vaccinated. When your child is the only unvaccinated child in your 'herd' of friends and their children you would think they wouldn't catch something from them.

It is possible to catch diseases from vaccinated children (vaccines aren't 100% effective) so I'm not sure why you find it hard to believe. Unless you think that no vaccinated child has ever caught the disease they were vaccinated against or has spread it to others but I don't think that's the case.

Tabitha8 Tue 28-Aug-12 15:10:23

So, to maintain herd immunity, we would need to vaccinate the parents, grandparents and the rest of society, then, would we not? So, why do we not do so?
Why are we told to vaccinate our children in order to maintain herd immunity but never ourselves?
I had the whooping cough jab as a child. My immunity may well have worn off by now, so I could catch it and pass it about, could I not?

ElaineBenes Tue 28-Aug-12 18:20:06

Tabitha

With an illness with waning immunity like whooping cough? Yes.

If I had a newborn baby, I'd absolutely make sure that anyone in extended contact was vaccinated/had a booster against whooping cough. 40% of whooping cough cases in infants are from the mother.

Bumbley

Herd immunity is all about probabilities, not absolutes. The more who are vaccinated, the more protected the unvaccinated. Even if you do have breakthrough disease if you are vaccinated, you're still less contagious. Although the best way to protect your child (unless medically advised otherwise for a teeny number of kids) is not to rely on herd immunity but to vaccinate.

Tabitha8 Wed 29-Aug-12 20:40:47

So why are parents not told then when they have their babies?

kitsonkittykat Wed 29-Aug-12 20:45:31

We don't vaccinate and I don't give a flying fuck what people think of that decision.

ElaineBenes Thu 30-Aug-12 00:38:58

It is here in the us Tabitha. CDC recommendations

The uk seems to be a bit behind with vax, eg no chickenpox vax on the nhs. They probably want to pick their battles given the misinformation swirling about.

JoTheHot Thu 30-Aug-12 11:54:35

You're not the only person who doesn't vaccinate and doesn't give a flying fuck about other people.

Sossiges Thu 30-Aug-12 14:08:37

That's not what she said, don't be so inflammatory. She's entitled to vaccinate/not vaccinate as she chooses and it's none of your business what she does.

JoTheHot Thu 30-Aug-12 14:56:00

Did I say that it is my business? She says no matter how well founded and articulated someone's view of her decision is, she's going to ignore it and hang the consequences. I'm entitled to post/not post as I choose, and a stupid post deserves a blunt reply.

ChunkyPickle Thu 30-Aug-12 15:24:39

I was under the impression that shedding could only happen with live vaccines, and that DTaP isn't a live vaccine, so a vaccinated child couldn't pass it on from their vaccination

(although if they were one of the children the vaccine didn't work on, and they caught whooping cough then they obviously could pass it on)

I'm not even slightly medical, but I'm pretty sure that i read that on one of the many information leaflets I was handed before DS's jabs. (and it tallys with what I know about coldsore infection)

Tabitha8 Sat 01-Sep-12 19:57:56

That's interesting Elaine. Odd that no such information is given to UK parents.

bumbleymummy Sun 02-Sep-12 17:41:06

'behind with vaxed' suggests that you think the US is some sort of gold standard for vaccine schedules Elaine. I'm not sure I agree tbh. Yes, they have more vaccines, that isn't necessarily A Good Thing.

I vaccinated my first fully, my second partially and my third not at all.

I have become progressively anti, the more my first is failed by the government and the NHS.

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 20:42:33

Different set of priorities, bumbley. They don't worry about cost in the us, that's the individual's problem. As a system, I prefer the nhs. As a parent with good health insurance, I want to fully protect my children with safe and effective vaccines. It's not like they recommend yellow fever and Japanese encephalitis for kids here. But I'm glad my kids are protected against hep a and chickenpox which they wouldn't be according to the uk schedule.

Sorry, the uk does lag behind other developed countries in its vax schedule and the whole Wakefield/mmr debacle has a large part in this IMHO. We should be doing a better job in protecting our kids from preventable disease.

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 20:44:40

Is that all governments starlight or just the British one?

Not sure what trust in the nhs/govt has got to do with vaccinating since all developed counties recommend vaccinating and all health systems, private or public, the world over provide it.

I don't have a problem with vaccinating, but I have trouble believing that safety comes before money and that money rather than safety influences the governments prefered METHOD of vaccination. Rather than vaccinations themselves iyswim.

And that has nothing to do with Wakefield and everything to do with being failed by a corrupt system in the past in which the NHS played its part.

bumbleymummy Sun 02-Sep-12 21:07:29

We shall just have to agree to disagree on that on EB. smile I don't think I'm the only one who thinks the US vaccine schedule is a bit 'busy' but I suppose when there's money to be made from worried parents...

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:12:26

Not vaccinating your DCs is also playing Russian Roulette, with much worse odds than vaccinating! (Assuming you have no existing medical reasons not to vaccinate).

"i would be happier my children fighting of diseases naturally than having it forced upon them."

They stand a better chance of survival and life free from disability vaccinated than not vaccinated. That's the bottom line.

Are you aware that the many of the diseases they are getting vaccinated against are killers?

From the NHS website:

"Measles is a highly infectious viral illness. It can be very unpleasant and possibly lead to serious complications, including blindness and even death."

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:13:25

Diphtheria

"An estimated 5-10% of people who get diphtheria will die from complications that arise from the condition, such as breathing difficulties, inflammation of the heart (myocarditis) or problems with the nervous system.

Before a vaccination programme was introduced in 1940, diphtheria was a very common condition and one of the leading causes of death in children.

The vaccination programme has been very successful. In 2010, there were just eight recorded cases of diphtheria in England and Wales, and no deaths. Diphtheria is a notifiable disease, which means that if a doctor diagnoses the condition, they must tell the local authority.

Even though the incidence of diphtheria in England is low, there's a risk that an outbreak could occur if the number of people who are vaccinated falls below a certain level.

This risk was demonstrated by the epidemic that struck the countries of the former Soviet Union between 1990 and 1998. It resulted in 157,000 cases and 5,000 deaths."

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:14:08

Mumps has a small chance of leading to serious complications:

Rare but potentially serious complications of mumps include:

- a serious brain infection (encephalitis), which occurs once in every 6,000 cases
- permanent hearing loss, which occurs once in every 15,000 cases.

Encephalitis requires emergency admission to an intensive care unit (ICU). Unfortunately, there is currently no treatment to reverse hearing loss.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:29:22

Whooping Cough

"Babies and young children are usually most severely affected by whooping cough. They are most likely to develop severe complications such as:

- pneumonia, an infection that causes inflammation of the tissues in your lungs
dehydration
- temporary pauses in breathing as a result of severe difficulty with breathing
- weight loss due to excessive vomiting
- seizures (fits)
- low blood pressure, requiring medication
- kidney failure, requiring temporary dialysis
- brain damage, which can occur if breathing difficulties prevent enough oxygen from getting to the brain

However, these complications are rare.

Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage can be fatal, although this is extremely rare.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:32:37

Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b)

"Hib is a bacterial infection that can cause a number of serious illnesses such as pneumonia or meningitis, especially in young children. Hib infections are preventable by vaccination.

Hib can cause any of the following infections:

- meningitis – infection of the lining of the brain and spinal cord
- pneumonia – infection of the lungs
- pericarditis – infection of the lining surrounding the heart
- epiglottitis – infection of the epiglottis (flap that covers the entrance to your windpipe)
- septic arthritis – infection of the joints
- cellulitis – infection of the skin and underlying tissues

Some of these infections can lead to blood poisoning, which can be fatal.

Many of the children who get Hib infections become very ill and need hospital care."

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:34:47

And of course if your child gets Rubella they risk the lives of the unborn babies of any pregnant women they come across, or birth defects, known as congenital rubella syndrome (CRS).

Congenital rubella syndrome (CRS)

"Congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) can cause the following problems in unborn babies:

- cataracts (cloudy patches in the lens of the eye) and other eye defects
- deafness
- congenital heart disease (where the heart does not develop in the right way)
- a small head compared with the rest of the body, as the brain is not fully developed
- a slower than normal growth rate
- damage to the brain, liver, lungs or bone marrow"

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 21:39:23

Thought it worth reminding people what you're meant to be vaccinating against, as it's become obvious to me that many of those advocating not giving vaccines to children don't have a real grasp of the danger of the diseases they're meant to prevent.

Vacinnes have risks, sure, but infinitesimal compared to the very real risks of the diseases mentioned above.

Not vaccinating your child (unless they have a real medical reason not to) is recklessly putting your child at risk of awful suffering and death, not to mention the rest of society!

It's more complicated than simply stating that these diseases can be killers. So can others that we don't vaccinate against. So, indeed are these diseases caught be children who ARE vaccinated. Vaccines sometimes don't work, sometimes don't even protect against the current strain of the disease.

The percentages of people in the world killed by certain diseases are affected by the health of the people and their access to sanitation and antidotes. Diphtheria is scary but if caught in time can be treated which is very likely in the UK.

Vaccines DO cause damage to some people. Those people then go onto become vilified by society and labelled scrounges and though poor treatment end up in prison, many of them.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 22:01:11

Starlight I thought it worth mentioning as the people I know who are anti-vaccine seem to have done a lot of "research" into the possible side effects of vaccines but are woefully ill-informed about the risks of the actual diseases they're meant to prevent, having done no real research into them - instead basing their knowledge of the severity of them on their own memories of childhood diseases which "weren't that bad". (No shit, you survived! Also the people you knew as a child are not a reliable sample of the population!)

A friend of mine even said she'd rather have tetanus than ecsthma (a side effect of the vaccination)!
She had no idea how dangerous tetanus could be!

Another friend of mine said that she's rather her child fight off the diseases we vaccinate against naturally as "they're not that severe anyway". Again she seemed to have no idea that they could kill.

Thinking your child won't be the unlucky one as they seem healthy, is not actually an effective prevention against killer diseases.

I'm not sure that is true. Those who have not vaccinated that I know have STARTED with the disease and made sure they can live with the risks first. It woukd appear to me to be the logical way to do it. On balance non-vaccers tend to have done a considerable amount of research into their decision compared to vaccers.

Also please don't confuse anti-vaccers with non-vaccers. They really aren't the same thing.

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 22:06:46

Starlight - I don't know anyone who has become vaccine damaged, vilified by society and then ended up in prison. How many such people are there???

Actually bumbley the CDC makes no money as its a federally funded institution.

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 22:09:10

My experience is that non-vaxers are generally anti-vaxers to all intents and purposes and that the research they have done is not based on scientific evidence in the least. They've spent a lot of time on the Internet, true, but misinformation abounds and they don't have the scientifcally critical faculty to distinguish between good evidence and misleading information.

The prisons are almost entirely full of people with learning disabilities. Disabilities as a whole are vilified in this country. Therefore the risk of vaccine damage is more than a health risk. It coukd plummet your whole family into substantial poverty and the subject of hate crimes.

A tiny risk but a severe one.

Presumably these people you are Dx with impaired intellect are those you meet on t'internet Elaine !? And who you have never actually met!?

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 22:13:44

No, I've met many people with learning disabilities. Not one of them is vaccine damaged, quite a few were preventable disease damaged.

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 22:14:16

In real life starlight, btw.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 22:14:49

I don't know anything about vaccine damage and prison.

It is fair to say though that prison is full of people with disabilities. My cousin (a Doctor) was stunned at the high number of people with dyslexia, while working in UK prisons, for example.

However I feel that this is a bit of a red herring as the diseases mentioned can lead to disability, so ending up in prison as a result of the way society treats individuals with disabilities could be an outcome of not being vaccinated also.

I meant the people who you feel are too intellectually impaired to read the research in the way you do that convinces them to vaccinate!?

Sossiges Sun 02-Sep-12 22:16:36

Interesting 'fact' that "an estimated 5-10% of people who get diptheria will die " when by your figures, 5000 out of 157000 died. Just over 3%.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 22:17:13

AndI would wager that ending up in prison as a result of the way society treats individuals with disabilities would be more likely from damage from preventable diseases contracted after not being vaccinated.

discrete Sun 02-Sep-12 22:21:36

I haven't at all with ds2 so far (he is 2). Ds1 had 3 vaccines. Will probably give those 3 to ds2 at some point as well.

Will vaccinate at the appropriate time (puberty) if they have not contracted mumps during childhood, and as appropriate for other things if I believe the benefits outweigh the risks at that particular time. Might even do measles if there is an outbreak somewhere where there is a high chance of them being exposed to it.

Abra1d Sun 02-Sep-12 22:21:48

My father had polio at 17. Missed university and National Service. Recovered, after a year in hospital. Could never play tennis or football or rugby again. Is now, as an old man, completely crippled and cannot walk. He has never had the career he ought to have had as a result of missing so much.

Why would you take the risk? You can still catch it in parts of the world (South Asia, for example) where your children might travel when they are older.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 22:26:07

Sossiges good to question what you read. Let's try a few more sources and see what they say.

Mortality/Morbidity

"Before the introduction of vaccine in the 1920s, the incidence of respiratory disease was 100-200 cases per 100,000 population in the United States and has decreased to approximately 0.001 cases per 100,000 population.

The most widely quoted diphtheria mortality rate is 5-10%. It may reach higher than 20% in children younger than 5 years and adults older than 40 years.

Immunization patterns have the most influence on mortality patterns. Mortality rates have not changed significantly over the past few decades. Most deaths occur on days 3-4 secondary to asphyxia with a pharyngeal membrane or due to myocarditis. Mortality rates of 30-40% have been reported for bacteremic disease"

^Source: emedicine.medscape.com/article/782051-overview#a0199
(Epidemiology tab on left)^

It doesn't say the incidences were reduced by the vaccine though.

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 22:38:12

Sossiges also I think you have misunderstood how the figures work.

Saying "An estimated 5-10% of people who get diphtheria will die from complications that arise from the condition" is referring to all people who get diptheria.

"by your figures, 5000 out of 157000 died. Just over 3%."
This relates to one specific epidemic in the countries of the former Soviet Union between 1990 and 1998.

That it is 3% (as opposed to 0.0005% or 82%) actually gives me confidence in the 5-10% estimate as it's in the right region.

There may be reasons that that epidemics was not as fatal as other epidemics. Or the fatality figures reported for that epidemic might be off for some reason.

Or it may be that the 5-10% estimate needs to be estimated downwards. (Although i doubt it, it is a possibility).

But even if the fatality rate is "only" 3%, don't you think it's preferable to have a vaccination with only tiny risks, statistically, than risk getting a disease with a 3% mortality rate?! I know which I'd prefer!

aufaniae Sun 02-Sep-12 22:44:59

Or, if we're talking about under 5s, an estimated 1 in 5 who contract diptheria die sad

Personally I find that absolutely terrifying.

Have I vaccinated my child to protect him against that threat? Hell yes.

ElaineBenes Sun 02-Sep-12 23:56:54

Of course vaccines reduce incidence of diptheria starlight. This is why we vaccinate.

What happened in the former soviet union when diptheria vaccination rates dropped? Diptheria incidence increased dramatically.

aufaniae Mon 03-Sep-12 10:27:58

StarlightMcKenzie it occurs to me this morning that your way of thinking is a perfect example of what I was trying to say.

You correctly identify that someone with vaccine damage may have problems wider than simply the health risks. You mention that "it coukd plummet your whole family into substantial poverty and the subject of hate crimes."

I don't know much about vaccine damage but I suspect you're right to say that it's "A tiny risk but a severe one."

However you are totally ignoring that fact that many people are disabled as a result of preventable disease - and that they face the exact same risks - poverty and hate crimes.

So the problem you mention is not one which is unique to vaccinations, nor one which not vaccinating will protect you from. In fact the opposite is true - not vaccinating will increase the risk of your DCs suffering disabilities.

aufaniae Mon 03-Sep-12 10:29:15

Or to put it another way - you are focusing on the risks of vaccines, but ignoring the risks of the diseases that the vaccines prevent!

andrushkya Sat 17-Nov-12 13:44:24

Hey! I saw that at one point you discussed about GMOs. At first, I was scared that what I might eat, might affect me on the long run, but after doing some research I discovered that there are not any known consequences. I found this blog: foodfrap.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/true-or-false-genetically-modified-tomatoes-a-causea-cure-for-fatal-diseases/comment-page-1/#comment-5, which is quite useful, to say the least. Maybe it will clarify some issues for you. Good day.

claraschu Sat 17-Nov-12 14:09:25

Vaccinated 2 kids, third, I delayed till after age 2 and haven't finished-

The reason is that I know THREE families (one is my sister's friend, and I haven't met them), in which a child who was starting to speak had a severe reaction to MMR and became autistic. I know all about the research, but when you have seen a child who is saying "juice", "dada", "ball", etc lose all those words after having a vaccine, it is hard to ignore.

I also know that autism develops at certain ages, and we don't know about the triggers, but this was too much of a creepy coincidence for me.

sashh Thu 22-Nov-12 06:39:23

I know all about the research, but when you have seen a child who is saying "juice", "dada", "ball", etc lose all those words after having a vaccine, it is hard to ignore.

And as well as the vaccine I would bet they

All had milk, bf or formula
All pooed in a nappy
All cried

Just as much evidence that all of those things cause autism.

inadreamworld Mon 10-Dec-12 00:20:53

I haven't had DD (20 months) vaccinated and do not intend to get future child(ren) (DD2 due in just over a month) vaccinated either. So far (thank God) DD has been very healthy and the worst illness she has had is a slight cold - has never even had a raised temperature.

A few reasons fro choosing not to vaccinate, firstly I know a few people whose children have been damaged by vaccination. Like someone said earlier I know a child who developed loads of allergies after getting the MMR and another who suddenly became speech delayed. A friend of mine had the flu jab - she is a healthy 25 year old and she immediately became quite ill and had to take over a week off work.

As a child my Mum tells me I had a bad reaction to my first set of vaccinations and was ill for weeks although thankfully I recovered. I didn't have the MMR and had measles as a child with no ill effects.

Do not like the idea of all the chemicals in the vaccines.

Am suspicious that a lot of pharmacutical companies are more concerned with making money than with the health of our children.

I think it is signofocant that the number of children with autism is on the rise since the increase in vaccination. Interestingly enough, the Amish community in America who do not vaccinate have no cases of autism.

Some vaccines contain material from aborted fetuses. As a Catholic this is something I want to avoid for personal ethical/religious reasons.

I was thinking of starting a thread like this myself actually - I don't want to get into arguments with people who don't agree with our decision not to vaccinate, I just want to share experiences and find out how many other parents have also decided to not vax/partially vax their children.

So to other non vaxing parents:
Tell me about the health of your children - have they had any serious illnesses?
I noticed that an earlier poster mentioned worrying about her child getting tetanus - would appreciate other peoples thoughts on this please.
Have you had a lot of negative reactions from friends about not vaxing - of have you kept it a secret? I have only told a few friends so far.
Have you had any issues when deciding to send your children to nursery and school?

ElaineBenes Mon 10-Dec-12 04:35:47

Thank you for that post inadreamworld

I think many people who don't vaccinate share your views and your logic.

JoTheHot Mon 10-Dec-12 10:32:45

I agree. By following these threads, I've come to realise that faith is very important to people who don't vaccinate.

Tabitha8 Mon 10-Dec-12 14:03:22

Inadream We've had no issues over a nursery place for our unvaccinated child. They know about it, but haven't questioned it at all.

Faith in what, Jo?

drivinmecrazy Mon 10-Dec-12 14:35:14

took my DD2 (7) for her pre-school booster this morning after being pressured by my practice nurse. This was due to me taking her to the doctors for a sore toe last week, when the doctor seemed rather vexed and more than slightly concerned she had not seen either of my DDs for 5 years.
Neither child has had MMR, DH will not agree and I can not in all consciousness go against him.
This might answer inadreamworld question about the health of non-vaccinated kids. Neither has had an ear infection, tummy bug or indeed anything more serious than a cold or two and a sore toe. Many friends comment on the health of our DC but had never before considered their lack of intensive vaccinating as babies as a correlating factor. Maybe anecdotal but maybe not.
Perversely my DD2 actually seemed to enjoy her trip to the nurse this morning.
Wish I had read this thread this morning, it may have given me the confidence to turn down her booster.
I had to inform her teacher this morning that she had had some injections in case she had a reaction, and the teacher was shocked and almost mocking when she asked what she had had.
I wish people wouldn't treat those who choose not to vaccinate as is we are ignorant, uneducated loons, akin to handing your child a loaded gun. If the NHS gave parents more choice and access to how and when our DC are vaccinated I believe many more would

inadreamworld Mon 10-Dec-12 19:43:10

Tabitha glad you have had no problems with the nursery.

I think Jo might be referring to the fact that I mentioned one of my (many) reasons for not vaccinating was the fact that I am uncomfortable with the idea that some vaccines use material from aborted fetuses. I do not expect people in general to share my view and this is not a pro life/pro choice thread! As it happens many of my Catholic friends who don't agree with abortion are happy to vaccinate their children. I don't think religious people are any more likely not to vaccinate than atheists.

Drivinmecrazy Interesting. I know a few other families who don't vaccinate and their children do all seem amazingly healthy too. I am convinced over vaccinatiing compromises the immune system. I know a lot of other Mums with children of a similar age to my DD and all of them comment on how unusual it is that she has never had anything worse than a slight cold. They put if down to luck but I think not overloading her system with toxins has a lot to do with it.

CatherinaJTV Mon 10-Dec-12 20:12:22

I think it is signofocant that the number of children with autism is on the rise since the increase in vaccination.

Well, the number of children with autism is also increasing in line with the number of private TV channels and the use of hand held gaming devices and cell phones.

Interestingly enough, the Amish community in America who do not vaccinate have no cases of autism.

That is absolute hogwash. Amish do get autism https://imfar.confex.com/imfar/2010/webprogram/Paper7336.html

Some vaccines contain material from aborted fetuses.

That is about as true as to say "carrots contain material from manure". One cell line derived from one aborted fetus in the 1960s is used today to produce rubella virus for the vaccine. The virus is made by the cell culture cells. No cells or tissue go into the vaccine.

miku Fri 14-Dec-12 14:38:43

I would like to say that I find your attitude very aggressive LeBFG-not very supportive at all.

sashh Mon 17-Dec-12 02:34:05

I wish people wouldn't treat those who choose not to vaccinate as is we are ignorant, uneducated loons, akin to handing your child a loaded gun.

Sorry but some people are uneducated loons.

statements like "I'm not happy with all the chemicals in vaccines" can only be produced by someone uneducated. I am currently sitting here with two liquid chemical cocktails one is a glass of water and the other a cup of coffee.

Later I will be ingesting some more chemicals with the added bonus of a dose of radiation when I have a banana forr breakfast.

Yes I'm pro vaccine, and I have also stated numerous times that some people have very good reasons not to vaccinate but for the general population there are really good reason to vaccinate.

ElaineBenes Mon 17-Dec-12 05:28:54

The Amish also vaccinate actually. What they don't do, however, is watch television.

Personally, I'd attribute their lack of autism to no television. After all, there is a direct correlation between hours of tv watched and the incidence of autism (and we all know that correlation = causation), television watching is so dangerous that the American academy of pediatrics recommends that chikdren under 2 don't watch it at all, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that all the research showing that television watching causes autism is being suppressed because there is so much money in television ( just look at the levenson enquiry and tell me the press arent in cahoots with politicians).

even more worryingly, I personally know many children who got sick while watching television and some who even developed allergies after they watched a lot of television. I just think that's too much of a scary coincidence.

ElaineBenes Mon 17-Dec-12 05:34:16

And about the rubella vaccine being from fetuses, even the pope thinks children should be vaccinated, so I guess you're literally more catholic than the pope!

Ironically, the one aborted fetus from which the cell line was derived was aborted because its mother was infected with rubella, it wasn't aborted to manufacture the vaccine. However, people who refuse the rubella vaccine on this basis are then quite happy to run around infecting pregnant women who may then be placed in the awful situation of either aborting or potentially giving birth to a profoundly disabled child. So, in fact, you could be the cause of more abortion by not vaccinating. Not sure how that one works theologically, makes no sense to me, even the pope doesn't get it!

Tabitha8 Mon 17-Dec-12 13:31:20

www.cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm
That's not to say that the Pope would approve of the method of manufacture.

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