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MMR or single measles...please don't judge!

(47 Posts)
momacharlie Fri 19-Apr-13 21:01:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ladycelestial Sat 20-Apr-13 09:21:27

WaynettaSlobsLover, the overwhelming scientific evidence is what I'm going on, which is not flippant, or biased. Scientific research allows us to determine relative risks enough to make judgements on whether a medication is a good idea or not. MMR is one of the easy ones, the stats are so much in its favour as to make decisions relatively easy.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 09:34:55

Waynetta, don't confuse 'safe' with 'no side effects ever'. Aspirin can cause strokes. Paracetamol can cause rare serious side effects. It's about weighing the benefits against the risks.

Beachcomber Sat 20-Apr-13 09:57:46

There is a problem of basic science with Offit's article noblegiraffe - it is entirely theoretical. He theorizes that an infant could respond to 10,000 vaccines at one time. It is nonsense. Responding to an antigen is not the same as responding to a vaccine - one would have thought that Offit as a doctor and vaccine developer, would know this.

Is there anyone here who would be up for testing that on a real live human being? Giving 10,000 vaccines? (Perhaps Offit would volunteer and we could count how many vaccines his body could withstand before it went into seizure or heart failure.)

In the United States they used the MMRV vaccine Proquad for some time - it vaccinates against measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox. They had to stop recommending the vaccine because it doubled the incidence of seizures as a side effect. There was quite clearly an effect on children due to vaccinating against four viruses at the same time rather than three. That is the real life experience of multiple vaccination and it shows Offit's theories to be dangerous and utterly fanciful.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:29:39

Beachcomber, I have googled and found nothing apart from a vaccine conspiracy site to suggest that the vaccine was withdrawn due to increased side effects, merely that there was a manufacturing problem.

The doubling of seizures (an additonal 4.3 per 10,000) was compared to children receiving MMR + chicken pox in different syringes on the same day - so it can't possibly have been anything to do with immune system overload as the immune system was receiving exactly the same load. Your assertion that it was due to vaccinating against 4 viruses instead of 3 is simply incorrect as it was comparing 4 viruses to 4 viruses.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:34:52

Wow, I just checked and you were repeating an error made by Wakefield. More poor research on his part, or flat out lies?

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:41:02

Oh, hang on, I see, the vaccine hasn't been withdrawn at all, an advisory body has simply stopped recommending it over having the 4 viruses vaccinated against on the same day in two jabs.

Nothing to do with immune system overload.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 10:50:32

"Perfectly safe" is actually misleading. Nothing is "perfectly safe".

However, I have MMR'd my lot.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 10:58:15

Can I just clarify:

In an interview, Andrew Wakefield claimed that Proquad had been withdrawn because of a doubling of seizures compared to separate vaccines, suggesting that adding more vaccines on the same day is dangerous. www.whale.to/vaccine/mercola1.html

Andrew Wakefield was wrong, the vaccine has not been withdrawn. Andrew Wakefield is also incorrect to suggest that the problem was anything to do with an extra vaccine being given, because the rate was compared to MMR plus chickenpox vaccines also being given on the same day.

Andrew Wakefield either has not researched his claim correctly (the information is freely available from even the drug manufacturer) or he is lying to support his pro-single vaccine agenda.

Either way, it's not looking good for Andrew Wakefield as a source you can trust. hmm

taypottick Sat 20-Apr-13 10:59:57

I mmr'd my dd but reading all the information that is now available on the internet against vaccine I would be more hesitant nowadays. Mumsnetters seem so biased towards having the jab, but if you look on the David Icke forum you get a completely different viewpoint.

It is a tough one.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 11:02:42

You can find all sorts of bollocks on the David Icke forum. You know David Icke thinks the royal family are lizards, right?

The David Icke forum was behind a lot of the speculation that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile too, I seem to remember. Another win for the David Icke forum, no?

CatherinaJTV Germany Sat 20-Apr-13 11:10:00

if you look on the David Icke forum you get a completely different viewpoint

That is certainly true - but that doesn't mean that you get any real information there.

I got mumps as an adult and lost the baby I was carrying. There is a link between mumps and miscarriage in early pregnancy (I was 12 weeks)
I do not consider mumps a mild disease for girls. I wasn't vaccinated by the way, my parents are also well meaning but ignorant like a lot of parents who think vaccinating is more risky than not vaccinating.

CatherinaJTV Germany Sat 20-Apr-13 11:19:49

so sorry Ehric sad

AnythingNotEverything Sat 20-Apr-13 11:21:52

OP I have no research to back up any guy feeling about which you should do, but do talk to your GP about this, and whatever you do, please do vaccinate your children.

I weighed up any theoretical risk on the jabs with the actual risk of the illnesses. These are nasty illnesses.

Thanks catharina smile it was a long time ago, I have made peace with it, I'm just sick of people thinking these things are not risky. All 'childhood' illnesses are dangerous in pregnant women and due to successful vaccine programmes mumps was rare until the bloody mmr scandal put the wind up parents and now many, many unvaccinated adults are getting it. It's the 25-35 demographic who didn't have the vaccine and didn't get mumps as a child who are vulnerable. My brother got it as an adult and so did several of his friends, as you know it can be risky for a man's fertility. And having experienced mumps in my saliva glands I can't imagine how unbearable it would be to get it in your testicles shock

OP your dd might never be at risk from mumps but by leaving her unvaccinated you are risking a lot of other people's health.

Beachcomber Sat 20-Apr-13 11:59:44

Noblegirafe, I didn't say the vaccine had been withdrawn, I said they stopped recommending it being used. You may believe that they stopped using it because of manufacturing issues rather than the fact that it causes seizures if you wish. It seems odd to spend millions developing a vaccine, safety testing it and then having it CDC and FDA approved only to then not bother to produce it....(especially in the US where they just love their chicken pox vaccines).

The fact that a four in one vaccine caused a different reaction to a three in one plus a single surely bears thinking about rather than being dismissed, non?

There was a difference detected in how children reacted to MMRV and how they reacted to MMR + single V.

My first question would be are the units of virus the same in the two combinations? And is anyone looking into why putting the 4 viruses in one injection made a difference to giving 3 + 1?

The JCVI in the UK advised the spacing of live viral vaccines until the introduction of MMR.

noblegiraffe Sat 20-Apr-13 12:10:14

No, beachcomber, you didn't say it was withdrawn, that's correct. Wakefield said it was withdrawn. When I googled your claim, that's where I was directed and I got you and him confused, my apologies.

I'm about to start a thread about this as it has made me very cross with Wakefield and I think it deserves wider publicity.

I think (it was certainly tested but I'm not sure if it's the same for the final vaccine) that the chicken pox element of proquad is stronger than the single jab, so they are not completely the same.

Beachcomber Sat 20-Apr-13 12:24:35

No worries noblegiraffe, apology accepted, thanks!

I don't know what the viral load is of Proquad when compared to MMR + single V. If I have time later I might look it up. I know Merck had issues in the past with the mumps element of the MMR which led them to increase the mumps units although I believe they also increased the single but then the single is little used in the US.

Bugsylugs Sat 20-Apr-13 16:34:05

waynetta I became really unwell on the evening I should have had the swine flu vaccine ( first yr available) in the morning. If I had had it it would have been put down to vaccine reaction which would have been an error. You can never be sure

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 16:43:16

Ehric, sorry for your loss. sad

The mumps component if the MMR is the least effective component and is known to wane over time so many teenagers who had the MMR when they were younger are still vulnerable to mumps.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 16:46:56

So can you have a third MMR jab to boost the mumps component?

Given mumps as an adult is generally considered worse than in children would it be better to catch mumps as a child if the vax is weak?

bumbleymummy Sat 20-Apr-13 16:54:52

You probably could Winky and they may very well end up recommending one. Seems a bit unnecessary to have to vaccinate against two other diseases that you are immune to just to top up immunity to one though. Disadvantage of multiple vaccines!

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