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Aluminium in vaccines

(501 Posts)
bumbleymummy Sat 11-Aug-12 18:51:15

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA smile

ElaineBenes Sun 12-Aug-12 03:36:02

Reposting Bruffin's link - fantastic summary
great link including why aluminium in vaccines isn't a problem

I'm not a toxicologist so can't really comment on the technical issues. What I'd like to know though is what problems do you think aluminium in vaccines causes? Why does it concern you so much?

bumbleymummy Sun 12-Aug-12 09:51:05

Thanks for the link bruffin.

The article links to a paper by Hem(2001) and your first quote is from from its abstract. Do you have access to the full text for it? In the abstract, it first talks about in vitro dissolution experiments which demonstrate that the alpha hydroxy carboxylic acid from interstitial fluid is capable of dissolving aluminium containing adjuvants although they did say that the dissolution experiments were 'perhaps not at typical body concentrations and temperatures'. Now, because I can't see the full text I'm not sure if they've gone into how much it is actually capable of dissolving and how that may differ under typical body concentrations and temperatures. Do you know?

Next, it mentions the New Zealand rabbit study which I think is Flarend et al. I do not have access to the full text so I can't confirm that in the references but I have seen it elsewhere. The abstract states:

"This study has demonstrated that in vivo mechanisms are available to eliminate aluminium-containing adjuvants after i.m. administration."

It doesn't say how much is eliminated and how much is retained but the ATSDR toxicological report on Aluminium also references that study and states:

"Following intramuscular administration of aluminum hydroxide or aluminum phosphate vaccine adjuvants in rabbits, increased levels of 26Al were found in the kidney, spleen, liver, heart, lymph nodes, and brain (in decreasing order of aluminum concentration) (Flarend et al. 1997)."

as well as looking at other studies and stating:

"Human and animal studies have investigated the aluminum retention in the body. Within the first day of receiving a single injection of 26Al citrate, approximately 59% of the dose was excreted in the urine of six subjects; 72 and 1.2% was excreted in the urine and feces, respectively, during the first 5 days (Talbot et al. 1995). At the end of 5 days, it was estimated that 27% of the dose was retained in the body (Priest et al. 1995; Talbot et al. 1995). "

Your second quote is from the article and is based on the Hem abstract so both quotes are effectively from/based on the same paper which didn't mention the retention of Aluminium from Flarend (the study it referenced) and has only said that the interstatial fluids 'are capable' of dissolving Aluminium containing adjuvants (albeit not in the typical body temperatures and concentrations) and that in vivo mechanisms 'are available' to eliminate Al-containing adjuvants. I'm not sure what they based 'rapidly eliminated' on either.

EB, it may not cause any problems and I haven't said that it 'concerns me so much' but I would like to find out how it was determined to be 'safe' (what has convinced you that it is?) and find the answers to my questions and so far I haven't been able to do that.

PigletJohn Sun 12-Aug-12 15:30:20

Do you have some reason to think that it is not safe?

What is that reason?

PigletJohn Sun 12-Aug-12 15:32:48

p.s. You say:
I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is

I think it is very unlikely that anybody is going to experiment by giving increasing doses to infants until they find the dose at which 50% of them die. Can you guess why?

Tabitha8 Sun 12-Aug-12 16:53:40

Someone said on another thread that aluminium has been in vaccines for over 70 years (or was it 75 years?) without any problems.
How many vaccines were given to children way back then compared to today?

bruffin Sun 12-Aug-12 17:05:33

Tabitha
If you at the links I and others provided, its not actually used in all vaccines. It's not in mmr for one.

Tabitha8 Sun 12-Aug-12 17:09:42

Oh, no, I realise that and the amounts in different vaccines differs, too.
I was just trying to guage the difference between 70 or 75 years ago and the situation today.

bruffin Sun 12-Aug-12 17:35:32

All the studies show it is within safe parameters.
And as pointed out in the other thread, neurological damage from vaccines is incredibly rare, there is study after study that show there is no more autism in vaccinated children than in unvaccinated.

I and a few others are more than confused why you and bubble keep bringing it up. There is no evidence that it is harmful at the levels used in vaccines.

monsterchild Sun 12-Aug-12 17:44:03

I think it's also important to understand the difference between "accumulation" and one dose. After time (according to the info you have posted, the body does pass aluminium from the system. So if vaccines are not given within days of each other it seems that there is not much in the way of accumulation. Obviously, as Piglet pointed out, they are not testing on human infants so can only conjecture at this time. No research can say "it worked in mice so it will deffo work in humans."

You should go pay for those articles, as they were written in peer review journals which require subscriptions. Or hie on down to the uni and look them up. I find many of the journals actually group studies so there may be more in that volume than you knew you wanted!

Also consider contacting the research department at some of the larger universities, I've found most researchers (if they have time) are more than willing to share info.

Hotpotch Sun 12-Aug-12 21:13:16

Bruffin can you post the links of the studies that show there is no more autism in vaccinated children than non-vaccinated? I thought I read an article that showed the Amish community (who don't vaccinate) had a zero rate of autism?

PigletJohn Sun 12-Aug-12 21:23:24

I definitely read an article that showed the Amish community have an unusually high rate of some neurological disease with autism-like symptoms.

lljkk Sun 12-Aug-12 21:27:20

There is no safe chemicals, there are only safe ways of using chemicals.

That was up in huge letters on the wall where I used to work. Only took me about 4 years to understand it.

monsterchild Sun 12-Aug-12 22:00:53

In many Amish communities, they do vaccinate their children.

PigletJohn Sun 12-Aug-12 22:50:38

Well, I suppose they would, now.

I understand the last significant polio outbreak in the US was among unvaccinated Amish, and they subsequently accepted the protection it offers.

monsterchild Sun 12-Aug-12 23:14:45

There was a study out of Japan in the late 1990s that showed after the MMR vaccine was unavailable due to health concerns (meningitis) the rates of autism continued to rise.

bruffin Sun 12-Aug-12 23:41:58

I will give the links later

bruffin Mon 13-Aug-12 00:31:39
monsterchild Mon 13-Aug-12 01:00:59

Thanks for those bruffin.

bumbleymummy Mon 13-Aug-12 01:09:16

Piglet,

"I think it is very unlikely that anybody is going to experiment by giving increasing doses to infants until they find the dose at which 50% of them die."

I'm pretty sure that it is possible to determine toxic doses without giving increasing doses to infants until they die smile How do you think they do it for various drugs? Paracetemol for example? They don't just keep giving increasing doses to babies until the die!

bumbleymummy Mon 13-Aug-12 01:18:37

Bruffin, what are those 'safe parameters'?

Monster, I think you would need to know how much Al is absorbed from the vaccine and whether that exceeds the excretory capacity of the child to determine how much could actually be retained by the body. The amount of Al in vaccines is considerably more than that contained in IV feeding solutions but obviously the vaccine is not administered intravenously! I do not want to be accused of comparing apples and pears (again!) but people keep trying to compare an intramuscular injection to ingested aluminium which is like comparing apples and pears too. No one seems to know how much of the Al from a vaccine is absorbed. (0.3% orally vs 70% intravenously - I'm guessing that intramuscular is somewhere between the two but no one seems to be able to say where)

bumbleymummy Mon 13-Aug-12 01:21:47

Bruffin, why have you brought up autism again? It has nothing to do with what I've asked. There is another thread about it already. Perhaps you could continue your discussion over there so that this thread doesn't get derailed?

bruffin Mon 13-Aug-12 01:26:16

If you told every what your problem with aluminium was then we wouldnt have to guess.
You have asked numerous times and won't say.

bumbleymummy Mon 13-Aug-12 01:34:26

I have said a few times now that I am not saying there is a problem. I want to know how it has been shown to be safe. If people have been so convinced of its safety then you would think it would be very easy to answer the questions I asked. Apparently not. I may have to just take myself off to the university library as monster suggested because I don't think anyone here has the answers. It does make me wonder how you all know it is safe though...

PigletJohn Mon 13-Aug-12 01:37:59

Bruffin, why have you brought up autism again

It was "Hotchpotch" that brought it up

Hotpotch Sun 12-Aug-12 21:13:16
Bruffin can you post the links of the studies that show there is no more autism in vaccinated children than non-vaccinated? I thought I read an article that showed the Amish community (who don't vaccinate) had a zero rate of autism?

Not fair to have a go at Bruffin for trying to answer the question

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