Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any medical concerns we suggest you consult your GP.

Vaccinations and nursery schools

(564 Posts)
Louise1010 Fri 13-Jul-12 00:04:37

This is my first post so forgive me if I do anything wrong!

I am just beginning to look at nursery schools for my 15 month old son, and I am a bit surprised that they don't seem to care whether or not he has been vaccinated. I expected it to be a requirement.

It seems incredible to me that I have to provide evidence of my cat's jabs to the cattery but when it comes to children anything goes.

Has anyone come across a nursery school in the UK that does require it?

LadySucre Fri 13-Jul-12 15:14:51

and mine was for chutney

Accuracyrequired Fri 13-Jul-12 15:17:30

also on the two threads I have been on the pro-vaaccination camp are very heavy on the CAPITALS and on the !!!!!!!!! it's so distracting

sorry little bit off topic and not relevant, I know I have to put up with it if I want to be on the thread

maples Fri 13-Jul-12 15:45:25

You can already see the % of children vaccinated in a given area as those stats are released by the health authority. In some London boroughs it is quite low apparently.

maples Fri 13-Jul-12 15:47:27

Stats up to 2010 here:

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/news-and-events/news/increase-in-mmr-vaccination-coverage-in-england-report-shows-but-child-immunisation-levels-are-still-lower-than-the-rest-of-the-uk

Tabitha8 Fri 13-Jul-12 19:09:14

I actually wish we would stop mass vaccinating against Mumps so that my DS could catch it when it wouldn't do him any harm. This is the problem with the MMR. It's pushing mumps into young adults.
Looking at the vaccination schedule as a whole, why do we still vaccinate against polio? Five shots between age 2 months and 14 years.
One of our local nurseries does ask if a child has had certain jabs, but I can't remember which ones they were interested in.

Don't worry Louise - ds1 caught rubella from a vaccinated child. Actually thinking about it ds2 caught whooping cough from a (different) vaccinated child. They've haven't ever caught anything from an unvaccinated child confused. Granted they may do in the future, we mix with a lot of unvaccinated children.

Yes Tabitha8 agree - I shoved ds3 next to a person with mumps, but no illness (although a third of cases in young children are asymptomatic so I have a little hope that he developed immunity).

ArthurPewty Fri 27-Jul-12 08:40:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EdithWeston Fri 27-Jul-12 08:51:19

"I look at this from the medical perspective, that measles alone can be a very dangerous and life threatening illness that was once almost completely wiped out"

measles has never been close to eradication, nor have uptake levels of immunisation in UK ever really been sustained at a high enough level to meet WHO target level in a population. The highest rates incidentally were just before the non-MMR options were removed. If your concern is to raise uptake of measles, then the logical step is (and always was) to offer the population what it wants (ie choice of jabs).

I assume the poster talking about 3month olds and MMR make a typo.

State schools in UK do not require any immunisations (and unless a jab were made compulsory for whole population, it would not be legal so to do as right to education is in law). I suppose a private school could have this as a stipulation. If there were demand for it, I suspect some such schools will become established. Perhaps OP could put her energies into establishing one? Or see if there would be a legal way to add immunisation record to admissions criteria (though unimmunised would still have to feature on the list somewhere)?

ElaineBenes Mon 30-Jul-12 01:37:22

Very glad Im in the us now where children have to be vaccinated to attend school, although not sure why their elementary school include hepatitis b on the list!

I completely understand your fears and think that if people wish to partake of social goods, they have to be socially responsible. Rather than the op having to set up her own school, I'd rather see unvaccinated kids at their own schools so that they can they can spread all the diseases they clearly want their children to have amongst themselves (note that this does not include children who are not immunized according to medical advice -they are the key beneficiaries of herd immunity). Children are entitled to an education but they're not entitled to put other children at risk, especially those who can't be vaccinated.

I did have to have a little chuckle about parents doing so much research and therefore knowing oh so much more than a doctor who has spent so little time on immunizations. Because the courses they have taken on immunology, infectious diseases, pathology etc have nothing to do with it at all. In fact, why even bother with medical school if you have the Internet?

ArthurPewty Mon 30-Jul-12 08:07:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crashdoll Mon 30-Jul-12 09:12:04

I did have to have a little chuckle about parents doing so much research and therefore knowing oh so much more than a doctor who has spent so little time on immunizations. Because the courses they have taken on immunology, infectious diseases, pathology etc have nothing to do with it at all. In fact, why even bother with medical school if you have the Internet?

This is the trouble with the internet. A little bit of research and people think they are experts. However, this is an issue in all areas. I'm sure there are some genuinely educated, clued up people but I see a lot of tosh too. Again, before someone jumps down my throat, I'm not specifically discussing vaccinations.

bumbleymummy Mon 30-Jul-12 12:15:44

Elaine, your logic is a bit flawed. If you think unvaccinated children are putting other (vaccinated) children at risk then what difference does it make whether they are unvaccinated for medical reasons or not?

ElaineBenes Mon 30-Jul-12 12:23:29

Because herd immunity allows for some to be unvaccinated without it posing a significant infection risk to others.

Unofortunately there is a bit of a tragedy of the commons situation here. If everyone piggy backs on herd immunity, it'll cease to exist and then everyone loses out.

ElaineBenes Mon 30-Jul-12 12:27:23

No leonie, hep b vaccine has saved the lives of many babies born to hep b positive mothers.

But if there is one vaccine I can understand parents (if the mother is not hep b positive) postponing, it's hep b.

No one is forcing you here to vaccinate. But if you wish to partake of a social good (free education) you need to be socially responsible

LaVolcan Mon 30-Jul-12 12:32:25

Ermm, if you believe that the vaccination protects you from the disease, why do you need to worry about herd immunity?

Re the OP and why nurseries don't insist on vaccinations when the cattery does - I wondered if it was simply that you leave your cat at the cattery, whereas if you child is sick you are asked not to send them to nursery/school?

ElaineBenes Mon 30-Jul-12 12:44:56

Some vaccines are more effective than others. It's not a belief system lavolcan!

But the main reason is to protect those who genuinely cannot be vaccinated. They shouldn't be excluded from school because of the selfishness of others.

3duracellbunnies Mon 30-Jul-12 13:17:52

The trouble is that views on medical exemptions vary. I have seen some drs who think I am evil personified for not giving my dc innoculations and others who say they wouldn't in my position either. Both my sister and I had severe (think potentially fatal/ brain damaging) reactions to two unrelated vaccines. Technically this doesn't put my children at higher risk, according to the gov, other research draws different conclusions. Ours have had their first doses in hospital, they and everyone else will have to risk that it hasn't worked as in both mine and my sister's cases it was subsequent doses which caused the reaction.

Where would we fall in the perfect nursery? Among the exempt if one dr signed it, among the excluded according to a different dr or in the middle of the somewhat inefficient who have only had one dose and if they don't get another one in the next 3 months then childcare will be withdrawn?

bumbleymummy Mon 30-Jul-12 13:30:17

Elaine, but those unvaccinated children (unvaccinated for medical reasons) are still capable of putting other children at risk. Why are you making a difference about what risk they pose to others?

Tabitha8 Mon 30-Jul-12 19:13:38

I see your logic Bumbley. Unvaccinated is unvaccinated, after all.

I completely understand your fears and think that if people wish to partake of social goods, they have to be socially responsible.

Does that include those that vaccinate being socially responsible enough to undertake the tiny bit of reading needed to discover that just because little Johnny has had the vaccination it doesn't mean he can't get the disease? The only childhood illnesses that can be vaccinated against that we've had in this house have been caught from vaccinated children. The parents didn't realise they don't always work. Or are those that vaccinate allowed to be ignorant?

ElaineBenes Mon 30-Jul-12 23:23:06

Of course a virus doesn't care why a child has not been vaccinated.

The additional risk to my vaccinated child from one unvaccinated child in their class is minimal. They are far less likely to contract the disease and in the unlikely event that they do, are far less likely to have it severely.

The children most at risk are other unvaccinated children, the ones who can't be vaccinated, the collateral damage of the crankosphere.

Saintly
Many diseases are contagious before the symptoms of the disease manifest themselves. Vaccinated people are also less contagious and if you do catch a disease off a vaccinated person, you will be less likely to have it severely.

It is generally considered socially responsible to keep sick kids home. It is also socially responsible to vaccinate them.

Gosh we must be really unlucky then as we've only ever managed to catch those types of things from vaccinated kids (exposure to non vaccinated kids wasn't transmitted).

Vaccination damage (even when not officially recognised) cones at enormous financial cost to the state. If you have done your research, have spoken to researchers about their models and questioned doctors and are left believing that your child is at higher risk than average Joe, it could be argued that you would be socially responsible to not vaccinate. After all ds1 will cost the taxpayer millions in his lifetime (24 hour care with a near normal lifespan predicted) - wasn't it my social responsibility to prevent his brothers becoming financial burdens as well? In fact I pick up most of the bill for ds1's care currently but there will come a stage -possibly very soon- when he is too strong for me to do that - then it is over to the taxpayer.

See how ridiculous the arguments become? Until there is a test to predict with 100% accuracy prior to any vaccination who will be damaged by it (and that sounds a tall order) the social responsibility argument is weak. Particularly when those individuals who have 'events' following vaccination have to struggle for so many years to get their vaccine damage recognised. If you want people to be socially responsible you need to be socially responsible to those who are damaged as well. One small start might be to pay out if a child is recognised as dying as a result of their vaccination (currently the vaccine damage compensation scheme only pays out for deaths from vaccination that occur after the age of 2).

ArthurPewty Tue 31-Jul-12 08:45:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LaVolcan Tue 31-Jul-12 09:18:20

I can't see why Elaine is getting so aerated about it. She chooses to vaccinate her children - that should the end of of the story.

It's very noble of her to worry about children who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, but to what extent is it her concern?

Vaccinated people are also less contagious and if you do catch a disease off a vaccinated person, you will be less likely to have it severely.

To quote one of my teachers at school: 'On what basis do you make that assumption?' A reference would be useful.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now