Mumsnet Talk

Am hunting on Monday it.l be the 4th time I've ridden the horse though he has hunted, I've popped over some small jumps in the school but I've never ever jumped a hedge, will I have to jump? if I don't jump am I likely to be left behind massively that's something he really doesn't like. I don't mind popping over small stuff but not huge hedges etc.

I'm sure whatever you're hunting will have a fantastic time.

(Hides thread).

Are you in the UK? What are you hunting?

Yes am in the uk.

What kind of hunt are you going on? (Depending on this depends on if you may have to jump or not)

You'll be fine. Assuming you are foxhunting (which will, of course, be done within the law as it currently stands) then when you get there and pay, introduce yourself and say it is your first time, and do they know anyone who might look after you. They will probably be really friendly and there are bound to be some others who won't jump or will only jump small fences. Have a fab time!

(P.S. I am assuming you are not drag hunting, although I haven't done this I think in some cases it is a much faster pace set over big fences.)

Good for you! Make sure you introduce yourself to the relevant people at the meet, and pay your cap (have you let them know you are coming?). People are usually very welcoming and happy to help - stick around the edge or back of the field, above everything make sure your horse doesn't kick people or hounds, say thank you to just about everyone you see, smile through the fear and have a wonderful time. There is usually a group of people don't jump so you won't have to if you don't want to. Depending on how fit your horse is, it may be best not to stay out too long - a couple of hours should do it for the first time.

Have a look at the hunting threads on the Horse and Hound Forum, there's a lot of useful info.

Thanks, yes I've been mooching around the H&H threads. It is fox hunting, I am going with one friend (hopefully lame horse ATM) who has hunted a lot but jumps and one who's never been but also jumps, I can jump but haven't really properly for years, it's the only thing worrying me really. I do know the MOH, from my yard though not terribly well.

How disgusting.

You'll be fine, a few folk dont jump generally. Kick on and have fun! Drag hunting is all go go, hunting as it is since the ban is very stop start whilst waiting for trails to be laid.

Thought it was banned. Cruelty and all that. I would also worry about the possibility of the horse getting injured.

if i had a new horse that was a bit strong and id only ridden it 4 times i wouldnt take it hunting! youre a lot braver than me!

brave? lmao

Saint I'm beginning to wonder if it's just stupidity, he's ok to stop but does a bit of head tossing.

Moomin, horses can get injured on any ride.

oh and foxy woxys arent hunted anymore they will have a runner laying trails for the hounds.

You will be fine, have a full hip flask with you.

Which hunt? hounds or bloodhounds?

Most will have non jumping groups and the master will point out leader of these at the start.

Have a great time & don't forget cap.

Hounds I think eve

I expect the foxes will be feeling a little bit terrified too.

And maybe up the bit or ride in double reins just to ensure brakes.:-)

a horse can break a leg in the field, not an excuse not to ride it. theres nothing wrong with taking a horse hunting, lots of event horses start their careers in the hunting field

He wears a 3 ring gag ATM and a martingale, it's on the second ring, I could move it onto the third? He came with a flash as well might it be worth putting it on? He's not worn it with me yet.

One of my sisters broke a leg standing in a field. One broke my leg whilst going demented in a forest (spooked by some arse on a horse who didn't have a clue what he was doing) when I was a kid and had I trouble controlling him. I don't like hunting. I'm a country girl, (farm girl) and see no need for it.

The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

Have a lovely time

You want sympathy and support for choosing to hunt an animal for fun?
How exactly will you be fox hunting within the constraints of the law? Another 'accidental' discovery? Our local hunt has lots of those.

I daresay you wont be as terrified as the fox!! Why do people still think this is ok?

People still want to do this? FFS.

No tough I'm not asking for sympathy but advice. You are well entitled to your opinion. I am well informed and happy with my decision.

I would put roundings on the gag or double reins.

.....and make you come back Mon and post pics of all then innocent animals you have killed on mumsnet to prove how awful hunting is.

Obviously 1 or 2 people breaking law means we all do

Good for you, tell your family then. I can find you some local cockfights too if you are interested?

That would be the 1 or 2 in your hunt who get to the fox first, Eve, while the rest hang about at a safe distance.

if he came with a flash i would probably put it on him for the first time to see how he reacts. can you easily take him home if you need to?

Nellyjelly- as far as I can see, hunts now have more support and better turn out numbers than pre-'ban'. Search for boxing day meet 2012 images if you don't believe me.

FirstHunt will you be hunting a fox to its death or not? It's unclear. Of course you don't have to tell me. But I thought fox hunting was now illegal.

Toughasoldboots- out of interest, do you think foxes should be left uncontrolled? Or would you prefer another method of controlling them? If so, what?

what toughasoldboots said, if you are happy with your decision, tell your family, im sure they'll be proud.

Why can't you just go on a hack? Why the need to hunt, i don't get it? I went on a horse riding holiday at exmoor we rode out in a different direction every day, belted around all over the place, was amazing, didn't have to add to the experience by killing anything though.

I am puzzled as to why you so confidently said that you were fox hunting in one of your first posts. Because of course that is illegal now.

<oh and foxy woxys arent hunted anymore they will have a runner laying trails for the hounds.>

Then surely that's called drag hunting rather than fox hunting. Op said fox hunting. The name does rather imply the hunting of a fox. Also, why would op's family be anti hunting if it was just drag hunting?

I was also in the belief that hunting with hounds was now illegal. And for very good reasons.

Don't bring out that old chestnut, yeah they need controlling, but you know, you could just shoot them, you don't have to enjoy it!

Greensleeves- it isn't as clear cut as that. The act was badly written with various loopholes. Most hunts still operate, 'within the law'. Firsthunt cannot say whether she will be 'hunting a fox to its death'. She's not even likely to see a fox, and certainly won't be personally hunting one!

Why no, jade, they prefer being hunted to the point of total exhaustion before being torn apart by hounds. It's absolutely the best way and hunt members are so very generous to give up their time to do it.

Not that they do it, of course, what with it being illegal and everything.

Good luck and have a lovely time firsthunt
I personally am not brave enough to take dhorse hunting, but love to watch, and there are always plenty of people around who prefer not to jump

I think it illegal to do what they used to do and go around and basically find the fox before the hunt, set the trail and send the terrier men around to block up the entrance to their shelters (brain gone, cant think what they are called, sets?) so they can't get away from the dogs and if they do, send the terriers in. But if they happen upon a fox on their lovely day out, then its fair game for the dogs to rip it to pieces. I mean, what can you do

Thought it was banned.

So did I, but I found this after googling

"At present, legislation in the Hunting Act outlaws the killing of wildlife by packs of dogs, however dogs are still allowed to chase the scent of a fox and flush out the animal, which is then ‘humanely’ killed by being shot."

In practice I bet most foxes get ripped apart by the dogs before they can be killed humanely. I live in a rural area and appreciate that foxes are pests, but I do not condone fox hunting in any way.

She's not even likely to see a fox, and certainly won't be personally hunting one!

Oh, that's ok then

They still block the dens.

Fox hounds hunt scented trails usually laid by a runner.

Its the same thing as a drag hunt.

Blood hounds also hunt trails.

So yes then, but really disingenuously.

Utterly repulsive.

Frustrated mum.

That is so far from my personal view.

I feel strongly that shooting foxes is far crueller. Shooting foxes often leads to injuries, resulting in a slow, cruel death. It is also totally unselective.

Whereas with hunting the fox is either caught or it is not. There is no chance of an injury and a slow death from gangrene or starvation (unable to hunt for food)- this is a likely outcome with shooting.

I find poisoning an equally unpalatable option- death by poisoning is a horrible,long drawn out way to go.

Hunting is more likely to result in weak foxes being killed, leaving a healthier population. As healthy foxes are less likely to prey on domestic animals this is also beneficial. Healthy foxes easily outrun hounds- I have seen it myself.

For you to blithley say 'shoot them instead' shows me that you haven't really thought about the implications.

I smell a troll

Oh that is all purely academic by the way. Hunting in the uk should now all be purely within the law, as announced at all meets.

They still do that Beertricks? FFS thats disgusting, the terrier man is a breed of man that needs flushing out, vile vile vile.

I just don't understand it, maybe its my working class background but just get on the horse, go for a good blow out ride throuh the woods and fields, have a race if you want some excitement. There is no need for hunting with dogs, for fun or for "control" its inhumane and a bloody waste of time. Id rather count my feet.

So hunting a weak fox is ok then?

Repulsive.

I think you are right fallen I am a bit slow on the uptake tonight.

I'm so sick of hearing all the contradictory pro-hunt bulkshit.

"It controls the fox population"
"We hardly ever see a fox on the hunt"

Hmm, not very effective then is it? Yet you'll tell us next that a marksman will often miss and is not humane.

It's not a class thing, frustratedmum. It's a cruelty thing.

Yes afaik the hunt will be within the law.

Headless that's reassuring, thanks.

Frustrated, the thing with hunting is it means you can ride through land you wouldn't usually be allowed to, that's what appeals to me.

I am absolutely not trolling, I've posted this in the tack room, not for debate but because I know there will be people who can offer advice.

All of those crap arguments were roundly defeated during the democratic process that led to fox-hunting being made illegal.

If your hunt is exploiting a loop-hole but will basically be hunting a fox, then you are in the wrong and you know it.

Usualsuspect- actually yes I believe that it is better for the fox population as a whole to be healthier and able to hunt wild prey. Rather than a large number of unhealthy foxes preying on domestic animals.

Better for the individual fox? If the other option is continuing to live in an ok way, then I agree. If the other option is a death by starvation, poison or injury not resulting in death from a gun then I disagree.

An accurate shot from a gun would be kinder, but this is not guaranteed- who is a perfect shot 100% of the time on a moving target? I am vegetarian, by the way! I have given this a lot of thought.

I'd also like to say that the old practice of digging out foxes that have gone to ground, I find thoroughly unpleasant. Firtunately I know no-one who does/did this.

My advice would be to not revel in the long drawn-out destruction of a living creature.

And not fall off and break something painful.

Yes, fox hunts are notorious trespassers. I know several farmers that don't want the hunt on their land, but the hunt repeated go across it like the entitled wankers they are.

Greensleeves- the 'democratic process' that wasted 500 hours of parliamentary time debating foxhunting? While giving some piddly amount of hours to for more important issues? Hmm, sounds logical...

Blocking their dens before the hunt is ok though, yeah, jade?

Beer tricks potter. I would say, honestly, that I've never seen anyone 'revelling'. I've seen people having a catch up with old friends, enjoying riding across land that is normally closed to the public, and having a great time jumping fences with their horse, but never anything as disgusting as the sentiments you suggest.

No, not at all, totally wrong!

Binarysolo- I am glad that my local hunt do nothing of the sort.

Yes, that's the one Jade, the democratic process that has always been regarded as a waste of time by people like you, but nonetheless had the authority to ban your backward behaviour. That democratic process.

Lots of hunts routinely break the law by simply lying about what they are doing. And being a pack of arrogant elitist inbred dimwits, they see no problem with this whatsoever.

Why not drag hunt then, jade?

If there was drag hunting in my area that's what I would choose over this

There's no Irish dancing teacher in my area. And until there is, I will carry on bear-baiting and blame someone else.

Come off it. Stop bleating. You know it's wrong. Even your family are against you.

At least they treat their hounds properly, eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3691527.stm

I find the "I'm vegetarian" comment hilarious!

I think you believe what you're saying and probably have friend that hunt which muddies the waters, but I think you're extremely misinformed if you in anyway consider hunting with packs of dogs a humane option.

If hunting was a working class persuit it would have been banned years ago along with badger baiting and cock-fighting. I absolutely believe this to be true.

Me too frustrated

You should choose nothing in preference to this, FH.

^^ agree totally frustrated, find this thread utterly depressing

I agree too. Which is why it is such a great leap forward that parliamentary time was "wasted" on this, and it is illegal.

Unsurprisingly, there is still the element who can't understand why they shouldn't just do it anyway!

Oh, I don't know, girlie. It's given a good heads-up to an illegal hunt and enough identifying info to do something about it, so not all bad

So if you're not a troll, did you name change to start this thread?

Why did you need to if you believe hunting's fine?

You say they banned it, so how come the loopholes left (intentionally?) were large enough that the majority of hunts still operate, looking forward to repeal?

I have to say that I haven't come across any arrogant elitist inbred dimwits. Most I have met seem to be nice people, a few I have thought not so nice, but no higher a percentage than the rest of the population. Many have gone out of their way to be welcoming when I knew no-one.

Why not draghunt? The nearest drag to me is know for being a fast hunt over large hedges/fences. My horse isn't that expensive, nor I that good, we can manage maybe 2ft6?!

Also, as I explained above, I think that hunting is better than shooting, poisoning or trapping. There is obviously more to my views than mentioned above, that's just a brief outline. Overall, I believe the ban was an ill concieved, badly worded piece of crap. So I support the hunts and hope they make it through until the act is repealed.

I am open to discussion, I know many have very different views to me, and my views are not fixed.

Your horse isn't good enough and you're not rich enough, jade?

Heard it all now.

Binarysolo, I don't have 'friends that hunt'. I do hunt. With a pack that currently hunts within the law. I will support them whether the ban is repealed or not.

Hunting is disgusting and I hope the one you are planning to go on gets cancelled or even better, banned. You and all the other poncing bloodthirsty twats should be ashamed and deep down you know it. Hopefully foxes will mutate in a few hundred years and get their own back on the hunting country cunts. Do excuse my French.

I didn't say not rich enough, now did I? My pony is not a posh hunter. I love him to bits, wouldn't swop him for a £5000 posh hunter, although he cost me less than £500!

Beer tricks not once have I said its an illegal hunt

You did say it was a fox hunt though, didn't you FirstHunt? Which is..... illegal. Even if you really really really want to do it.

Well I guess traditionally its a fox hunt as opposed to deer.thats what I meant. Not that it is an illegal hunt.

Fox hunts still meet greensleeves. They simply work to ensure they are hunting within the law.

By "hunting within the law" you mean lying, basically. Fox-hunting, but dressing it up as something else. If the dogs scent a fox - which is what they are there for - they will hunt it down and rip it to shreds.

The arrogance is unbelievable.

You do realise that you'll need to be "blooded" as its your first hunt - you'll have to have the foxes blood daubed on your face.

OK so you probably wont hve to do this, but that is the tradition

Which is impossible as how do you stop an excited pack of dogs from killing the fox when they catch it?

You've spent lots of time at the front of a fox hunting field then, have you? As I've said, the way you imagine it is not what I have experienced at all.

Feel free to correct me and say that you are basing your views on actual experience rather than just something made up.

I will ride safely and take care, thank you. You too- if you're a rider that is, I'm not sure from what you've said.

I think there is alot of ignorance and niavety surrounding fox-hunting, mostly within the ranks of folk like the OP who think they know better because they are "horsey"

I can never understand the argument that hunting the foxes with hounds is more humane than killing them. If that is the case why does it take 50 people all dressed up 'to have a jolly good time' to hunt down the fox? Why not send out just 2 people and the hounds to get the job done quickly and quietly. Why is it such a celebrated occasion?

It's the blatant killing for fun that I can't abide.

I speak as a person who has worked in a hunting yard and has hunted in my much mis-guided youth.

That's not what I've been lead to believe is the case green.

If I was fox hunting I'd be too embarrassed to ask for advice on a public forum.

Don't you know that most people hate it? Or is that why you started this thread?

Could you not ask your friend who you're going on the hunt with?

They represent a tranche of society who have NEVER believed that the common law applies to them. It's nothing new. That is why parliamentary democracy is so precious - it simply isn't possible to turn people like this into human beings, so we need to be able to ban their disgusting activities in law. And as BeerTricks has pointed out, OP has obligingly made that a bit easier.

Greensleeves. No, that is not what I said at all. Please dont put words in my mouth. I believe current options to 'hunt within the law' include following a laid scent, using hounds to flush to guns and using birds of prey.

I have quite clearly said that I feel hunting (as was) is a kinder control method than the other options. This is my view and is so far unchanged by the insults slung on this thread (notably lacking in actual coherent arguments that might actually, you know, make me consider my views.)

I've never taken part in a hunt, jade, that's true. That does leave an awful lot of other enjoyable horsey stuff that doesn't involve chasing a wild and harmless animal to its death, so you go right ahead and dismiss me as some numpt townie if you like

Binary, you don't. The law left loopholes, it was never designed to stop these people doing what they love to do.

I have experience of hunting, and have witnessed it first hand - its vile although most the people on their horses are probably genuine in their "lovely day out" mentality don't tend to see the kill. It is the terrier men and hangers on that get down and dirty and take their spades to the foxes. They are usually the ones who take out the fox hounds when they are old and of no use anymore.

Oh come on, don't engage. No one would come and post on Mumsnet about this without wanting to start a bunfight. It is a construct!

Getting people like you to change your minds requires a transplant surgeon, not a reasoned argument. Which is what's so great about parliament having criminalised fox hunting.

You're basically spouting this 'humane' crap in order to defend something you enjoy doing. I'd have far more respect for fox hunters if they just admitted that they didn't give a shit about some random bit of wildlife being ripped to pieces because they got to have a jolly nice day out in the process.

Ah wait, actually, no. I'd still think you were cretins.

Anyone that thinks chasing a live animal to exhaustion for sport can be justified in any way, shape or form, is utterly repulsive.

*...chasing a live animal to exhaustion, to then suffer a cruel death being ripped apart by hounds, can be justified....

Lost a sentence there somehow.

Beertricks, I'm not dismissing you as anything, as I said I'm happy to listen to the views of others and if I hear a convincing argument I may adjust my views.

Greensleeves. Great- so you're happy that parliament criminalised fox hunting. I'm happy to continue supporting my local hunt, riding across lovely countryside with some interesting, lovely people.

Binarysolo, I can't speak for others, but I don't agree with your assessment of my motive at all. I won't resort to calling you a cretin though!

You're happy to continue breaking the law and torturing wild animals. Why doesn't that surprise me?

I have done neither of those things, thank you very much.

Coherent arguments, jade?

Ok, if the fox population has to be kept down (leaving aside any arguments that it doesn't), then hunting with hounds and horses is the least efficient way to do it.

There's an expertise to pest control. The modern version of the hunt is an elitist and ritualised version of its origins which has no place in modern society. Your game little £500 nag bringing up the rear serves no purpose and would be glue 100 years ago.

Rural pest control techniques are dying out as each generation dies out. Hunts are a useless throwback. If you want rid of foxes you need to tap back into the old knowledge and do it quickly and humanely, not sneak around guffawing about loopholes.

Fucking disgusting. I hope you tell your family, and they are suitably horrified and ashamed, and tell you so.

ok.
im a bobbie (at least i am for now)
i love horses and i love riding but hunting foxes with dogs is illegal. im sick and tired of going over the legalities of this.
its illegal to intentionally hunt a fox with dogs and horses. illegal and wrong morally in my opinion but opinion is just that - the law is the law. why the chuff do people think this is a law its ok to break?

im anti. i love horses. i love riding. i hate cruelty.

we used to go to the town hall in Loughborough and heckle the Quorn hunt on Boxing Day. I can still see my Dad shouting 'You'll need your Dutch courage' and they sat on horseback in the centre of town sipping sherry.

We don't have foxes here and so it has always been drag hunting, and rightly so

DO PEOPLE THINK THIS IS A REAL HONEST GENUINE POST, REALLY?

You just keep repeating yourself, jade. Same old humane argument which simply isn't true. Oh but that's right, your vegetarian, so it must be humane if you hunt.

As Beertricks has said hunting is inefficient. So how is it still the best method of control?

The 'convincing arguments' in parliament are surely what caused the changes in the Law in the first place.

Hunting with hounds is the selective way to do it. Sick foxes are killed, leaving a healthier population. Shooting, trapping and posioning are all totally unselective. For me, this is the nub of the whole argument. The most 'efficient' way would be shoot the buggers, all of them! But extermination of foxes is hardly desirable, is it? (And who cares if many are wounded but left alive to suffer for weeks?) I find this idea much less pleasant than foxhunting.

Thanks for the comments about my 'game little nag' I still think he's fab!

Just out of interest, what is the 'old knowledge'?

Please ensure you only go over land you have permission to if you do decide to undertake this barbaric pursuit.

I spent one year delivering stillborn lamb after lamb as the Hunt went across our land without permission and caused all the ewes to miscarry as they went so fast.

It doesn't matter where the fox or trail goes. Just make sure you have permission. And it wasn't only the one time.

Binarysolo- to reiterate, I think it is better because it is selective. 'Efficient' is just about numbers killed- more killed=more efficient. 'Selective' is about leaving a healthy fox population, not cutting numbers as much as possible!

Like fuck do you cull just the old and the weak. Come off it.

Hunting with hounds is illegal jade. Even if you think it's better.

Mentioning that you are a vegetarian was a bit odd, given that you are so wholly convinced that you are doing nothing wrong. Are the dogs veggie too?

I'm sorry to hear that sharpkat, how awful, I hope it never happens again.

Beertricks. Again, I can only speak from experience. I have seen foxes outrun hounds several times. I have never actually seen one caught.
Vegetarianism mentioned purely to illustrate that I'm not a dyed in the wool animal killing, steak knawing, right wing toff (you'd never get a veggie one of those!) No, the hounds aren't vegetarian. Nor is my pet dog!

Approx 5,000 fox hounds killed by hunt masters each year. Quite an outlay in canine life when a decent gamekeeper with a gun could keep the fox population down.

Oh and I know it's illegal, I'm sure I've referenced that myself once or twice this thread!

Yes, and the gamekeeper can still do just that, and will need to, as currently hunts are not hunting foxes with hounds.

Well, I think it's all eloquently been said by earlier posters.

Your proposed behaviour disgusts me, OP.

Shameful.

It's not selective. Just because you catch the fox it doesn't mean it was ill or injured or old or whatever it is you tell yourself. It's just the hounds were faster.

Foxes have gone to ground then been dug out and thrown to hounds. How was that selective?

Unless you're trapping foxes, medically examining them, then killing the weaker ones, you are not being selective.

Also, 'efficient' when talking about keeping down the fox population would imply a certain 'hit' rate as it were, so I do find your arguments contradictory and illogical.

As for your mind could be changed, I think it's pretty obvious that this isn't true as you're breaking the law due to the strength of your beliefs.

Sharpkat, thats horrible for you - not to mention the cats that are often killed by foxhounds. I daresay the huntsmen and their nags do far more damage to farmers land than a few foxes.

To go back to OP, you have just bought a horse and you are inexperienced and you want to point it at and jump hedges and walls in the countryside?

Fuck ooooooooff.

I'm a vegetarian too.

I find that I also don't like partaking in activities that are likely to lead to the cruel death of a live animal.

Funny that.

No liner inner,mi don't want to jump hedges and walls that's what I said in my op. I also didn't say that I'm inexperienced I've ridden for years, I can jump but haven't done a lot of jumping recently.

Terrible typos there, don't know what happened.

Let's hope it all goes well for the OP, Liney <crosses fingers>

Currently, jade? Why not leave landowners to it then?

Binarysolo. I am not breaking the law. I hunt with a pack that operates within the law. Even people hunting with a pack that did break the law would not be charged themselves. Perhaps a master who broke the law might be charged, but I don't think a follower of a hunt has ever been charged with breaking the law?!

Leave landowners to what, sorry?

OP - I may have missed it, but if this hunt is not hunting live foxes (even if "oops accidentally" and thus "within the law" ) why are you ashamed to tell your family what you are doing?

If only nature had some way of disposing of sick old foxes by itself, eh?

Am dipping out of this now. Thanks for those who gave advice.

I'm not a vegetarian, i am very objective about animal welfare - I do not however take any pleasure about participating in an animals death and do not understand anyone who does. I extend this to people who go shooting, and whilst i understand that certain animals need controlling, to do it for fun?

I don't think it matters whether the OP is a troll or not actually - its a valid debate.

But as someone pointed out, new, young horse, unconfident rider - its an accident waiting to happen and i genuinely hope that niether the OP or her horse sustain an injury as a result of her foolhardiness. Also, if he is nappy and strong aren't you putting other riders at risk?

Well quite, theoriginalnit. However, the fox has no natural predators in this country.

Hahaha a vegetarian fox hunter.

What a load of shit

Oh I'm lates but another big fat hairy troll

< leads goats over with the v's>

Mmmm nice untrodden grass over here

OP, put the horse back in the stable and do not ride it in a hunt.

i hope you are suitably put off this vile sport then when you see the reality of it.

and its illegal i know the law - ive spent the last 3 years studying it - im a police officer.

vile vile and vile. how anyone can sit and watch dogs kill a smaller wild animal is beyond me.
foxes - if you actually do the research - are self regulating.

if you want a jolly hack cross country then do it - i adore riding and i adore my time at the stables - i want my own horse and i love everything horsey. except hunting.
i will never ever stoop to that.

Yeah, and sick old foxes tend to live indefinitely, right?

OP you won't need to jump at all. Introduce yourself to the Field Master at the meet and they will point you in the direction of whoever leads the no-jumping group.

I'd have thought you'd need more experience of riding/jumping your new horse. However if you're set on it then put on your flash and reins on the lowest ring of your gag just in case. Consider parking up a distance away and hacking to the meet to get him a little tired and relaxed.

At the meet keep him moving and once they start keep towards the back.

Don't forget your Cap (you should have called the Secretary in advance to say you'd like to come and find out how much) and say good night to everybody when you leave. Finish as soon as you find that he is tiring - probably less than 2 hours - you'd be unwise to keep going to the end or past second horses.

To sorting out the Fox Menace themselves, jade.

Funnily enough, since the Ban I've not seen many sadfaced landowners on the front pages holding aloft prized livestock cruelly whipped from this life by an increased fox population.

Will MNHQ let us Troll Hunt the Fox Hunt, just this once? Pretty please?

Frustrated- I don't take pleasure in deaths either, why would I, that would be sick. I do support fox hunting though, I don't believe this means I take pleasure in foxes dying. It means I believe it is the best method of controlling them. Although obviously this is theoretical as hunting as it used to be is currently illegal.

<scatters aniseed round QLB's feet>

Really, REALLY sick. You are going out to KILL a creature weaker than yourself, and you are worried about YOURSELF.

Shows what sort of person you are.

Jade, you don't take pleasure in the deaths because you are on a cheap horse at the back.

Frustrated- I don't take pleasure in deaths either, why would I, that would be sick. I do support fox hunting though, I don't believe this means I take pleasure in foxes dying. It means I believe it is the best method of controlling them. Although obviously this is theoretical as hunting as it used to be is currently illegal.

This has my vote as most disingenuous post ever seen on MN.

How can it be the best method of controlling them if it only kills the old and sick?

Ha ha I've been at the front, middle and at the back! All rounder, me. (More honestly, I have ended up at the front when the braking system failed at least once!)

Will no one attempt to explain or justify the 5,000 fox hound deaths?

They are on your side, after all and do all the dirty work.

Oddly enough one of my chickens was eaten by a fox last week. It didn't make me want to dress up and go and meet up with a pack of rabid rural psychopaths and spend several hours participating in a mediaeval death ritual

guess I just ain't got the breeding

Bollocks have you. Hunt formation doesn't work like that.

Sabrina- why do you feel I am not being honest?
Nit- because killing the old and sick leaves a healthier population more able to hunt wild prey and less likely to kill domestic animals.

Jade, you are a true altruist, giving up your time to control a country side pest, when you don't even enjoy it

foxes are actually self controlling. they dont need controls

and which is it?
either its a successful way of killing foxes or its not. im sick of reading shite about the fox escaping etc - if thats true then why bother?
ill tell you why bother - because its fun for those chasing.

dont dress it up.

and its illegal its time more prosecutions were brought about. If while on patrol my attention was brought to an illegal hunt i would have no hesitation in going for a prosecution.

Hunt formation?! News to me!

all underhand isn't it? You are so sure it is humane and fulfills a need which cannot be met as well in any other manner, yet you are doing it in secret so your family does not know. You are hunting a fox with hounds in such a way that you believe you can circumvent the law, knowing full well the intention of the law is to prevent fox hunting as a blood sport. Presume you name changed for this since it is unlikely that FirstHunt is your regular posting name.

Oh and individual hunters don't actually get charged, do they? So you know you are doing something that could lead to you being charged. You sound dishonest to me

That you bought a cheap horse and are going to take him insufficiently prepared to a hunt since he didn't cost much, doesn't surprise me really

Frustrated- sarcasm duly noted! I do very much enjoy the ride though. I don't, however, sit there drooling at the thought of something being caught. I've never even seen a fox caught! (Not even back in the days when it would have been legal!)

LMAO at your last comment ther jade!! Leaves a healthier population more able to hunt wild prey and less likely to kill domestic animals Foxes will hunt where there are easy pickings, they wont descriminate and will go after domestic animals if they are not protected and easy to get at. They wont think to themselves, "well im perfectly well enough to go hunt myself a wild rabbit, when there are domestic animals there for the taking" They will take them. Maybe the key is adequate fox proofing of land? But then if they did that, the hunting dogs wouldnt be able to get through - oh the dilemma

I didn't once say he was. A cheap horse or that he is unprepared. He has hunted before.

ZZZ- the op didn't say she bought a cheap horse, are you confusing her with me?

OP, your reply to me referring to your OP was incorrect, wasn't it? Or what we call an untruth where I was raised.

Vicar, yes. Foxes are territorial and thus self- controlling. So when one is cruelly and inhumanely butchered erm, controlled by the Hunt, another soon comes along to takes it's place.

Which is jolly convenient for the Hunt is it not?

Well I've taken no chances frustratedmum- my chickens are kept in a run as fox proof as I can make it. I can't speak for others.

I've never ever jumped a hedge

From the OP's OP.

I feel sorry for that horse.

Is it, jade? Now why doesn't that surprise me

You're inexperienced, you are just in it for the lulz, your horse is a bit cheap and not adequate for a hunt......so many gaps in your story i don't think I can be arsed any more really.

FWIW i don't think you are scum of the earth or anything, i know a lot a fair few people who hunt and they are perfectly nice, but they are still wrong to do it. I did use to be a hunt sabbatour, back in the day (so you may think im a scummy hippy do gooder if you wish ) when hunting was "legal" and i can tell you how scary the terrier men were, nothing refined and "nice" about them, i can tell you. Thugs, the lot of them.

OP, frankly you be getting riding lessons. In a meadow.

yes, possibly

I've never even seen a fox caught!

Thought you were at the front sometimes?

I'm not inexperienced, I'm just not into chucking myself over massive hedges! Call it a sense of self-preservation, or maybe I just don't drink enough at the meet! My horse is cheap, but he suits me and does everything I want. There are no gaps in my 'story' as you phrase it.

Yes line I have never jumped a hedge that doesn't mean I've not jumped at all. I have jumped over logs, streams, ditches and jumps in the school, I mentioned the hedges as I wouldn't feel confident going if I thought leaping over huge solid hedges were a must, I wanted to know if there was an option to dip out. Not quite sure what you think I'm lying about.

Thanks for your post but kin, we are going to hack there it's a short way and hoping it'll mean they are a bit calmer

Beertricks- yes I have been at the front, but only in the last few years (as a kid I hunted a few times, always at the back) and it has not been legal to kill foxes with hounds in the last few years, has it? Hence why I've never seen it, I imagine.

Firsthunt- hacking is a great idea, your horse will be much calmer. I'd also not arrive too early- he may get wound up if he has to stand for a while. Keep him facing hounds so there is no chance of him kicking one. Consider a green ribbonon his tail to warn people you're inexperienced, or a red ribbon if you think there is any chance he will kick.

Don't you think they were more honest somehow, frustratedmum, the terrier men?

I mean, if foxes need to be culled (and I don't think they do), isn't it better that it's done quickly and efficiently without all this palaver?

All the twats in red coats are just window dressing and have been for quite some time.

If hunting was a working class persuit it would have been banned years ago along with badger baiting and cock-fighting. I absolutely believe this to be true.
I'm working class and I've done it!
If pursuits were banned for being working class, then surely fishing would have been banned years ago!
Working fox hounds is not illegal. If it was, presumably the regular police presence at our local hunt would be arresting huntsmen, rather than trying to get between the hunt and the rent a crowds?

OP - if you're legally drag hunting then why are you ashamed to tell you're family?

*your

Why do you think some of them wear coats a different colour to the rest?

5,000 fox hounds killed each year

Soz to shout but no one has actually commented on this as a byproduct of the thriving hunt industry.

It is not a working class pursuit just becuse they let a few plebs in saggy

Maybe fishing isn't banned because its managed generally and people fish for food (as well as fun, which again, im bemused about).

You are posting about hunting, OP.

'I've never ever jumped a hedge'

got responses, and then you say

'I can jump'

I think that's at best disingenuous.

Sabrina, you were right the first time

im going to have a chat with our wildlife officer. He just brought about a successful prosecution for badger baiting and sent an email to every officer on our patch to watch out for it.

im going to have a talk to him about fox hunting and see what his take on it is.

it is illegal to hunt a fox with hounds. i work a rural area so im going to ask him about it - i have talked to many gamekeepers etc over the time ive been in the job.

i know that foxes are self controlling. Its a total fallacy that they need to be culled or controlled.

its a sport. hunting is sport. people do it for fun. it pisses me off that those who hunt try to dress it as anything else.

Yes you've hit the nail on the head, the coat colour is related to the price you paid for your horse. An easy way for the hunting fraternity to identify who is worthy of being acknowledged!

BeerTricks I hate to even think about that statistic. 5000?

Poor hounds. Just shows that the whole Hunt is just a shameful sporting pursuit that has no regard for any animal welfare.

Vicarinatutu, you seem to be missing the point that foxhunts are no longer hunting as they used to pre-ban.

bollocks jade

OP, I would avoid horses until you know what you're doing.

They're still using hounds though? And 5000 hounds are put down every year?

That's worthy of note. How can that be justified?

I don't think she's missing the point jade, I think it's just really obvious that it's a lie.

The hounds are there to hunt down a fox. That is what is likely to happen.

Dedicated rural police numbers have been cut so much it's virtually impossible for them to make any meaningful contribution to preventing hunting or any other wildlife crime without specific and detailed information as to where and who.

I can jump but I've never been in a situation where I've a jumped a hedge, hedges scare me because they are solid and unmoving, I don't want to have to jump a hedge on a horse I don't know well yet and injure him. When I said about popping over jumps in the school I meant on new horse not that that was the extent of my jumping. But you're right that possibly wasn't very clear.

It is a sad sounding statistic. But what should happen to old hounds otherwise, they aren't usually suitable to be family pets, they are working animals. I imagine a large number of pet dogs are put down in pounds and animal rescues every year, but no-one says ban pet dogs, do they? It is no sadder than animals being raised for meat and killed to feed the food industry, really.

Apparently any hound owner can legally kill a dog with a bolt gun?

Any animal sacrifice can be justified for your 'sport' can it Jade?

Foxes... hounds... horses even... no matter?

If you injure him he can be put down, First. It is no sadder than animals being raised for meat and killed to feed the food industry, really. To coin a phrase.

Vicarinatutu- it isn't bollocks, at least not in my area. At every meet there is an announcement, part of which is a statement to the followers and landowners that the hunt will at all times be operating within the law. I have not seen any evidence that my hunt is not adhering to this.

(Whereas dogs in rescues and family dogs are injected.)

Same as greyhounds, Line.

LOL jade.

there speaks the vegetarian

your posts are full of holes, jade.

No, Sabrina, that's not what I said. All dogs, hounds and pets, grow old. Working animals tend to be put down when they have no further 'use' to their owner, sad though that is. Meat animals are killed at the prime time for their meat production. Pets (the lucky ones anyway) are kept alive to the end of their natural life, with medication if they are ill, and sometimes put down if they are sick and in pain, sometimes dying by themselves. This is how it is, the world over.

I might add that I remember one of the heartfelt arguments of the hunting fraternity, when the outlawing was being discussed, being that all the hounds would end up being put down?

Well. They're bred for purpose anyway (unlike foxes) and are put down in their thousands each and every year.

But somehow this is all justifiable... er... Why?

Very few sports fishermen would kill their catch! The local angling group round here would have your arse! I'd love to know how many swans are killed every year by discarded hooks and weight shot, or how many fish die a lingering death after being impaled on barbed hooks, exhausted from thrashing around in terror being 'played', dragged from the water and left gasping for breath before the hook is wrenched from hopefully their lips, but quite often their throats, and then dumped back in the water! But that's ok, because commoners do it!
There are plenty of PLEBS who hunt. The "sport of the rich" argument is used by people who don't actually know what they are talking about!

What holes?

Saggy, I agree re. fishing for sport and throwing back and your points about theimpact on wildlife, totally. From by a 'pleb who hunts'- ha ha.

I hate fishing too, Saggy.

Like I said, it's not a class thing.

Fishing sucks too.

I think everyone who hunts are arseholes to the foxes; most of them are arseholes to the dogs; and far too many are arseholes to the horses.

You say it's not a class thing, but you've been throwing insults that suggest otherwise, haven't you? Apologies if I've confused you with another poster!

No, that was me

i say again.
bollocks.
it is bollocks. most people have the intelligence to read between the lies lines.

or why bother?

the RSPCA just brought about a recent prosecution in Berkshire did they not? because hunters believe they are above the law.

if its ok to fox hunt then its ok to speed and drink drive, imo. (and i say that as as someone who has lost friends to that justification) the law is either there for everyone or no one.

and yes you talk bollocks jade and you know it. many hunts still operate totally illegally using bollocks excuses and loopholes in the law. Dont treat people as if they are stupid. thats just insulting.
punkatheart is a wolf conservationalist who posted a you tube clip of a hunt filmed in 2012 well after the ban was in place in which a hunt objector grabbed the fox from the hounds. it looked terrified and tiny among all those dogs.

thats not sport. its barbarism. dressed up.

Human beings exploit animals. It's what we do. We are the dominant species on this planet, we got that way through exploiting other species and the environment. Foxes are no worse off than cows, sheep, pigs, fish, budgies in cages or goldfish. Personally, I'm more disgusted by hamsters and rabbits being stuck in tiny cages and given to small children to neglect.

No, that was her ^^

I'm firmly in the camp of any tithead can buy a horse and try and keep up with a hunt.

Ha ha, true greensleeves (do I sound posh though?!) I'm sure beer tricks was the one making insinuations about cheap horses (i.e. rich people are 'proper' hunters) and 'twats in red coats' though!

Oh ok, fair enough, if you're of the opinion it's fine for me to try and keep up I'll carry on doing just that!

I am so heartily sick of the endless assumptions that fox populations need controlling. For one, they are territorial - you kill one you get another one. Secondly, learn some history. Foxes were hunted to extinction in mainland uk in the 18th century and reintroduced from the continent - purely for the purpose of hunting. They were deliberately introduced to the Isle of Wight as late as the 1930s for the same reason (although pro hunters will try to argue it was to control bunnies). And, anyone who actually hunts and is naive enough to think only sick foxes are killed (cubbing, anyone?) and that foxes don't get deliberately released after being kept in a sack overnight so they stink to high heaven or that terrier men don't dig them out is a fecking idiot.

punkatheart is a wolf conservationalist who posted a you tube clip of a hunt filmed in 2012 well after the ban was in place in which a hunt objector grabbed the fox from the hounds. it looked terrified and tiny among all those dogs.

I wonder if that was the same fox released into our local pack BY animal rights activists a few years back so that they could film it being ripped to shreds?

Your horse is cheap and you don't have the status to wear the red coat.

That's not a Class diss, it's just an observation.

There's a difference though between domestication and exploitation.

I couldn't care less whether a certain class practices fox hunting - it is an illegal, barbaric, bloodsport. The end.

How did they get access to the pack, Saggy? Thought it was all battened down, access-wise?

Of course it wouldn't be the hunt supporters themselves would it. Not with their track record of the humane and speedy dispatch of foxes.

Lurchers, the sack and digging out you mention is disgusting and I don't think would be accepted anywhere as appropriate. I take it you have no actual examples of hunts that do this? If you do, they should be reported.

Saggy, that is awful, but sadly only too believable given the things some so called 'animal lovers' do.

There's a difference though between domestication and exploitation.
No there isn't. Domestication is just exploitation given a different name. There are many many domesticated animals which are treated far worse than foxes.
The difference is, man relies on domesticated animals to live.

The status, beer tricks? I ask again, why do you think some wear that colour coat? It's nothing to do with how rich they are!

Like i said, naive.

Rent a crowds can gain access on meet days, there's no ring of security, it's called a 'field' for a reason!

*Your horse is cheap and you don't have the status to wear the red coat.

That's not a Class diss, it's just an observation.*
Hunt staff wear red coats. Generally paid employees. Working class?
Everyone else wears black.

So if you know something, get on and report it. If you don't, stop pretending you do.

i doubt it saggy judging from the distress and risk the woman took in plucking it from the hounds mouths

here you go

hope this shows exactly what hunting is about.

No, it's because they are huntsmen, masters (past and present) or those otherwise asked to wear the colours. None of whom got there by riding cheap horses, as you (or OP) yourself said.

You are confusing class with money, which is understandable if you think joining in a hunt is a good way to spend a day.

and that woman kicks her horse

Cost has no bearing on a horses suitability to hunt.

Saggy

Domestication is a scientifically documented process involving changes to animals' DNA and human-faunal interaction but I doubt you could tell me what part of which millennium it happened in for, say canines, wthout googling it.

I am still unsure what the price of horses has to do with coat colour. People who have bought less expensive horses or even not paid for them at all- maybe bred their own- are not precluded from being able to wear a 'red coat'. I do not find myself at all confused about the difference between money and class, thanks. Katie Price would be a prime illustraion for this

i <3 that woman who got that fox out of those dogs mouth.....tiny little thing being set upon by all those dogs and people just standing and watching except for her.

its bloody illegal.

i hope she gave her footage to the RSPCA.

Really Saggy?

just in cast anyone missed it

poor little sod.

AFAIK Katie Price is a pretty decent rider. Not sure of the relevance of that, but hey ho, you're determined to turn this into a Everything-But-The-Kitchen-Sink debate

Pretending nothing. Some prosecutions have resulted from activity i and others have filmed. Unfortunately far too few, and the reality (as well you know) is that the change in the law has done little to change that.

Vicar, I didn't miss it. I've seen it before and I'm not going to watch it again.

She may be a decent rider, but that doesn't affect what she brings to the class vs. money argument!

Lurchers, well good for you for doing something about it, that sort of thing is wrong and I would never support anything like that.

thats fine beer - its for those who think hunting isnt cruel.

the fox was released unharmed. i just want people to see what this "sport" is in reality. im a horsey person, i am going to have my own horse, i spend every weekend at the stables, but i would rather eat my own eyeballs than condone this disgusting practice.

Oh, I heart that woman that saved that fox too. Bloody amazing. Thanks for posting, Vicar.

Sickening that this still goes on because of 'loopholes' in the law.

Pro-hunters know it's bloody illegal - shame on them.

Of course they do. They pretend it is for the 'good' but I have seen grown men blub over a beautiful horse getting injured in this 'sport'. Stupid activity.

There's no class v money argument. It's an Inhumanely Killing Animals Argument.

Sorry vicar, that came across a bit abrupt. Sadly, I don't think that footage will change the minds of people who are pro-hunting. how could it? They're immersed in that world and it's not about the animals to them, it's about the kudos. They aren't going to change their minds.

The vixen saved by the hunt monitors in that youtube video certainly didn't seem 'sick' or 'old'.

Kind of blows Jade80's theory out of the water.

Nope. Best hunter I've ever seen was give away to my friend.
LineRunner
I don't see what when domestication happens has to do with anything. It's still exploitation. Humans spotted that dogs predators hung round their habitations looking for food. They also noticed that dogs hunted for food, and kept other predators at bay. They exploited these traits to make their lives easier. However scientifically and patronisingly you describe it, it's still exploitation.
Vicar, there is nothing in that video to show that sabs hadn't just released that fox. Those hounds weren't hunting it, they were just milling about. They clearly hadn't just run the fox down. The hunt were just standing around.

That was healthy young vixen in the video?

right saggy....so that horn blowing from the bloke in the red coat means nowt then?

Saggy

You don't understand domestication. You see everything as exploitation when it isn't. There is a wealth of recent archaeological, gelological and genetic information on the prehistory of human and canines.

linerunner the video isnt horrible.

watch it. a hunt monitor saves the young vixen from the hounds and runs off with her.....she certainly didnt look old or sick to me.....

and the huntman blew his little horn to alert others to where it was - bollocks to that argument from saggy im afraid

saggy i really respect you as a poster but on this issue we will have to agree to disagree.

you know you are talking rubbish but you are being careful due to the law. i get it. but that fox was hunted. in november 2012 - that fox was hunted. well after the law changed.

My pony is not a posh hunter. I love him to bits, wouldn't swop him for a £5000 posh hunter

Quite a price range in horses If they are all that good why pay £5000?

It's an Inhumanely Killing Animals Argument. Millions of animals die Inhumanely every day. I don't remember ever seeing a hunt sab hounding the small children who starve bunnies to death in hutches! Or people who flush goldfish down the loo!

Quite a price range in cars. If they all move, why pay £5000?

vicar I'm looking at the video. Looks illegal hunting to me.

Ah yes, Saggy, the Overton Window argument.

oh saggy - mute argument.

im as against that as i am hunting.
if i come across cruelty in any guise i act on it. i have done several times now.

and the huntman blew his little horn to alert others to where it was - bollocks to that argument from saggy im afraid
Huntsmen blow many different calls. Not all mean "kill the fox"
As an ex hunt servant, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

If you would like to start a thread about those things I may contribute, Saggy. For now I'll stick to a time consuming, labour intensive, neglectful of animal welfare thread such as this one.

Goldfish? FFS.

linerunner - its illegal hunting and there is no disguising that.

i hope very much that the hunt monitor gave that footage to the RSPCA.

i believe they brought a successful prosecution not that long ago for similar...

Saggy - that isn't a valid argument. Hunting is a routinely cruel bloodsport. The cruelty is part and parcel of the 'sport'. And as we've seen, not just cruelty to the wild foxes. Cruelty also to the hounds and even the horses.

It's just basically crap all round. Nice red jackets though. Not.

'hunt servant' - wow.

Do you bow as well?

Do you mean moot?
I am glad you act on cruelty. i think the issue is what you define as cruelty. Take fishing, shooting, trapping, hunting, killing for meat, the milk industry, leather, producing eggs and any one person will have a range of views on which if any of those is cruel.

saggy i really like you and your posts - on this issue we will just have to agree to disagree!

no hard feelings.

but im anti hunting. its cruel.

What did it mean, Saggy?

If the sab was about to plant the vixen as false evidence wouldn't he have shouted "Oi! Where'd you get that bloody fox!"

Yes, I do as one person have a view on what's cruel and act on it including posting on this thread.

Does a goldfish not have rights then?

yeah i meant moot

forgive me grammar police.

its still a sick practice though....chasing down animals to kill for pleasure no matter how much you pull my spelling apart.....

Divertionary tactics are so infra dig.

Why on earth would you imagine those observing & protesting against cruelty to animals would have released that vixen, Saggy?

I know it's a tricky concept for those who hurt & kill animals for fun to get their head around, but y'know, the rest of us tend not to.

I don't think you can use the term 'sabs' anymore, either. If hunting foxes is illegal & you only kill them by accident these days , it's hardly 'sabotage' to aid in the prevention of an illegal act.

Love the way you and jade keep trying to widen the debate. To the dairy industry, meat, fish, pets, goldfish, Katie Price even.......

You chase (or have chased in the past) a fox to a slow and needlessly cruel death.

How about we focus on that? For this thread, about hunting with dogs, illegally, how about those who do it address just that.

Dog fighting is also illegal. Folks who organise this don't get a 'free pass' because the dogs just happened to bump into each other and get into a fight, or because they really really really enjoy the 'sport' amd don't see why they should stop just because 'Johnny Politician' says they should.

'to kill for pleasure'... yes of course, that's exactly what I've been saying

I agree, Beer, although I am keen to discuss palaeolithic caves at any time.

op is an arse. So is anyone else who tries to justify this horrendous act.

Just watching those other Hunt Monitor videos on Youtube, the pro hunt lobby are just vile. I do wonder just why it is so important for the hunt to get at a wild fox like this. Because that is what they do, even though they pretend to stay "within the Law".

They want to hunt a wild animal into exhaustion and a painful death, for what? To prove how 'superior' they are? To show what good horsemen/women they are? All the ones I've ever seen just look like idiots. (Oh, but they'll pretend it's all for the control of fox numbers, even though anyone remotely educated knows that this is a complete fallacy).

I really admire the Hunt monitors.

That's what you do, jade. You get pleasure out of it. If you didn't you would just ride. You're not happy with that though; you have to see a living creature ripped apart at the end of it.

Bit screwed up, when all's said and done.

beer thats not going to happen.....its much easier to talk about the meat industry.

so lets talk about those horses that go for meat then and end up in burgers....all those needlessly bred horses that end up going to the continent for slaughter and who are kept in abysmal conditions.....i jsut read a horrific expose in an old Your Horse magazine.....and my mate just posted something that i couldnt even watch on facebook about a slaughter house in the UK that wasnt even stunning horses properly before slaughter.

cruelty abounds in this world.
its not right though is it?
foxes, horses, - all the same to me. sentient beings that feel pain.

beer tricks, I currently support a fox hunt that hunts within the law. There is no hunting illegally with dogs for me to focus on, because I dont do it. Should the law be repealed, my views won't change. Should the law stand, I will continue to support the hunt as they work with the law.

But beer tricks, there are no animals being ripped apart, as the hunt I follow hunts within the law. I still follow them, in support of what they stand for. So your argument is invalid- no deaths caused by hounds, yet I go anyway?

Fwiw I don't think I will go now.

jade80, what you, and your hunt are doing, is exploiting a loophole in the law - and that is morally wrong and you know it.

Saying that you want to do it, or that you think it's right, is not a defence.

Aw bollocks. It's illegal, it's cruel. Let it go the way of bear bating and shoving children up chimneys. Find a passtime that doesn't kill anything or karma will bite you on the arse.

oh jade come off it.

we are not that thick.

please.

Line runner, I am also up for a discussion of paleolithic caves!

firsthunt if what you say is true i salute you. Its a very thrilling experience i am sure - but so is drag hunting or hacking with experienced riders cross country.

start eventing or something equally thrilling.

Firsthunt - I cannot tell you how pleases I am to hear that.

Take your new horse for lovely hacks etc, instead.

Don't participate in anything that might lead to the needless cruelty of a live animal for sport.

All the best, OP.

Sabrina, but the loophole was deliberately left to appease the animal rights brigade while allowing hunts to continue operating for the time being. Was it not?

I am not defending anything, simply stating my views. Others are entited to their own views.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'not that thick' vicar- I don't think anyone is think, just that you have different views.

You're lying, jade. It's to be expected - I wouldn't admit to an illegal act on here even under a nn, so I don't really blame you.

Anyone who chases a fox for fun and lets the hounds rip it apart at the end i.e every hunt between Oct and March is a little bit sadistic. Wouldn't mind if they admitted it, but this mimsy What me? Oh no, I operate within the law dont you know!.......give it a rest, you're fooling no one.

Why on earth would you imagine those observing & protesting against cruelty to animals would have released that vixen, Saggy?
You don't have much experience of hunt monitors do you!
We try and widen the debate because the issue of animal exploitation is HUGE! it's an insurmountable problem which encompassed the whole world. And whether or not the animal in question is 'domesticated' is totally beside the point! Fox hunting isn't even the tip of the iceberg, it's a flea standing on the tip of the iceberg!

Start eventing, now you are trying to kill me

Jade80, sorry but you are talking bollocks. You will continue to spout such bollocks as long as you support the hunt. Because spouting bollocks is the only way to justify it.

OP - I sincerely hope that this thread has opened your eyes to the reality of a hunt.

It's like Starbucks saying 'we don't need to pay tax - technically'. We all know is't a crock.

Nope, no lies here. What's to lie about? I occasionally follow a hunt, who I have no reason to believe do anything illegal, I've found the people to be pleasant and I've never seen anything horrific. I'll continue to do so until i hear an argument that convinces me it isn't a good idea. You're free to do as you wish too. Best of luck to you- you won't find me resorting to slinging abuse like some on this thread.

what beer just said ^^ is what i meant by us not being thick....as in not quite getting the whole "what us guv, no guv, we operate within the law now guv...." thing.

which is clearly absolute and utter bollocks.

i do hope that clarifies what i meant.

firsthunt.....well i know....just a suggestion! i would break my neck im sure....but there are very thrilling ways of getting horsey kicks without killing things is what i was trying to illustrate!

best of luck

Totally agree with Saggy's last post- Saggy I envy your eloquence!

Did canines in fact domesticate early humans? Our 'problem' as a proto-sedentary species was always food and faecal waste. Scavengers and processors were essential on the edges.

Just perspective, really. Humans needed them much more than they need us.

The palaeolithic coprolite evidence from Sudan is amazing btw.

I have a good friend who is as huntin' shootin' fishin' as they come.

We have table-thumping arguments & he enjoys winding me up by sending Countryside Alliance Xmas cards.

I respect his right to vote for any political party that'll bring back legal hunting, to lobby the government of the day & to engage me & anyone else in impassioned argument on the subject.

His views on people who do the whole 'oh yeah, we're hunting within the law. Whoops. Accidentally killed another one' are if anything less tolerant than mine.

Even if you can convince yourself that ripping an animal apart for fun is an enjoyable day out for all the family, to slide around the edges of the law in this dishonest, sniggering manner is morally bankrupt.

It's one thing my blood-sporty mate & I can agree on without hesitation.

Shameful.

You want it back, campaign for it, & see how many of the public agree with you.

I sort of see what you mean vicar, but still I haven't seen anything illegal myself- yes hunting has changed since the act, but that's to take account of the act and stay within the law!

Saggy

'You don't have much experience of hunt monitors do you!'

Enough, actually.

I'd love to see you provide evidence of one releasing a fox to the hounds for the sake of a youtube link.

Linerunner, what was your degree in?

The problem of animal exploitation is not helped much by the hunting of a wild animal to a cruel death, in the name of sport, Saggy.

But I can see why you'd want to deflect the argument - after all fox hunting has no justification, per se.

But, maybe, just maybe, if you start talking about other cruelties to animals, people will stop making such a fuss about fox hunting? And then you just enjoy your sport in peace. It must be a pain having these Monitors spoiling your fun by mentioning these pesky Laws and things.

well said raven

and on this note i shall now have to get to bed - im at the stables tomorrow! riding lesson and then helping out.....no good if im yawning my head off!

goodnight all and please lets keep the debate civil and honest. im pretty sure that most people dont support hunting with dogs.

its just a shame the law is flouted so openly.

No. Cainines exploited early humans for their own ends. They took advantage of our habitations and early ways to make their lives easier, just as we exploited their ways for our own ends. Not sure what this actually has to do with hunting?

Night, enjoy your lesson!

<shoves aside Sudanese fossilised poo>

Just own it, those who hunt. I'd respect someone more if they said "Yep, my job is to keep foxes down on X land and this is how I do it"

Vicar, I'm sure you'll be careful not to accidentally kill any foxes that cross your path tomorrow

I have a number of pointless degrees in the equivalent of the Geology of Human Shit.

Ok beer tricks, I allow the hunt to cross my land to disperse foxes (not to kill, as this is illegal) I also allow one man to shoot them with a shotgun as none are now hunted. Is this ok with you?

thanks jade - i will, i love being at the yard. It really helps me get through the week.

goodnight all.

If I had known I could get a degree in the geology of human shit there is no way I would have done the degree I did!

Night.

Has been interesting.

Or should that be "kill any foxes who accidentally cross your path tomorrow"??

Who knows? If there's a loophole to exploit, you'll always find some dick in a red (or black) jacket to exploit it.

I had to do maths and everything

Or tweed?

Yeah, I had to count for mine too, bugger, hey?

But, maybe, just maybe, if you start talking about other cruelties to animals, people will stop making such a fuss about fox hunting? And then you just enjoy your sport in peace. It must be a pain having these Monitors spoiling your fun by mentioning these pesky Laws and things.
Maybe if people stopped making a fuss about fox hunting, they might actually turn their attention to the much larger issues out there. I never said that I was for or against hunting. Frankly I don't like cruelty to animals, i make sure that any animal that i am involved with leads as good a life as possiblee. But focussing on something because it's a rich mans sport is hypocritical. As are plenty of hunt protesters, who will happily endanger the lives of the hounds horses and riders in order to help the fox.
Our local hunt has a regular police presence. I'd imagine that this has an impact on its ability to break the law.

Jade, when you're in the back end of a sub-Saharan malarial cave all week trying to get data to write a research paper on the shitting patterns of early human infants, then Any Other Subject seems just grand.

Saggy, if you're against cruelty to animals, genuinely, you will be against fox hunting.

How can I put it? Fox hunting involves cruelty (ripping apart of a live animal by hounds) to foxes (said animal).

It really is that simple.

If he does it quickly and humanely I don't have too much of a problem with it beyond the fact that I don't see why they are that much of a problem to you, jade. It's your land to manage, after all.
Don't see why they need to be culled in the first place and certainly not by a load of bloodthirsty throwbacks.

I'd imagine the police have better things to do.

We're all paying for them to make sure some twat on a horse doesn't a) accidentally allow the pack of hounds he's been yahooing over the countryside after to actually kill a fox, not that that's the point of the exercise oh deary me no or b) get into a ruck with a fox-protecting lady in a Puffa jacket & her mates.

Frankly, I don't think that's the best use of taxpayers' money, & it'd be unnecessary if you all just went for a nice unambiguously legal hack instead, no?

Saggy, I think fox hunting is awful. Yes there are other things that are arguably more awful and to be honest I do devote more time to those, such as fighting for the rights of victims and political prisoners around the world. But fox hunting in my eyes is still awful.

And indeed illegal.

Well, and as for the OP, I hope she keeps her horse safe.

Saggy, if someone in The Doghouse had posted that they were taking their terrier out to flush badgers I'd have the same opinion.

You missed one:
3: or get into a ruck with a sab who has just stabbed his horse trying to cut the girth, or let off an air horn in its ear...

Why would you take a horse into harm's way?

Why would you go out of your way to deliberately hurt or scare a horse if you are against animal cruelty?

Oh I am quite prepared to accept that there have been, historically, a small number of appalling nutters linked with protesting about hunting, Saggy, & I condemn their behaviour just as much as yours.

Although there never seems to be much evidence, as opposed to anecdote, about their activities.

The argument that it's all a monumental waste of police time & budget stands.

No-one would.

I've just watched a number of hunt videos that were filmed since hunting became illegal. I don't anyone touching the horses except the riders or the hunt, and some of those riders look lost.

Saggy - it's a little condescending to suggest that if anti-fox hunting types stopped fussing about fox hunting and turned attention to the bigger issues, the world would be a better place. We can actually concentrate on more than one thing at a time, you know. Personally I think that there is way enough cruelty in this world without deliberately adding to it so that some folks can have a jolly day out.
Actually, that sounds way too restrained. What I actually think is that people who deliberately indulge in any form of cruelty against defenceless beings, whether that be animals, children or other people, are utter fuckwits.

There's little evidence that hunts break the law. Apparently it happens though. Sabs are well know for bully boy tactics, just as much as huntsmen.
line would most of those videos be filmed by monitors?

Saggy - you can't put the onus on the Hunt monitors here.

The Hunters are in the wrong. They can't engage in a cruel sport that has a very real chance of the death of a defenseless animal, due to a loophole in the law, and then claim that those standing against it are in the wrong.

It's filmed evidence, Saggy.

I don't think it's CGI.

What is the need to hunt with hounds at all? It's just a barbaric throwback sport.

Evidence, Saggy?

I did a fair bit of sabbing in my younger days. We weren't terribly effectual, in fact we've all sworn never to mention the time some numpty reversed our van into a pond & the hunt followers kindly went off, found a local guy with a tractor, & pulled us out , but I never saw evidence of any of the Antis behaving in a manner that might harm horses, hounds, or members of the hunt.

I'm not saying it's never ever happened, & I've also heard rumours of the occasional headcase joining the sabs just in the hopes of a punch-up & being disinvited next time - I'm saying 'well known for' does not = evidence.

Whereas it's a tad difficult to argue that the Hunt aren't going out en masse for a day of premeditated 'being unpleasant to animals', isn't it? No argument that mostly you wouldn't hurt a fly but regrettably you have to boot out the odd weirdo who likes ripping foxes to bits for fun?

No, not cgi, but would you post a video showing yourself doing something wrong?
I'm not putting the onus on anybody. As I said, I never said I was pro hunting, I do however find sabs hypocritical. They have no regard for horse, rider or hound in their quest to protect the fox. I've seen their behaviour and have had plenty of anecdotes from others over the years. They have absolutely no room to shout.

Saggy - I think your use of the word sabs is another diversionary tactic. Yes, there are nutters in the anti-hunt movement, just as in all walks of life. Doesn't detract from the fact that the vast majority of people in this country are against a practice which often involves the lingering and unecessary death of a defenceless, terrified creature for the enjoyment of a few people devoid of compassion or (I would argue) real intelligence.

Sabs, hypocrites, rent a crowds, animal rights activists...

Still waiting on evidence, as opposed to anecdotes, of animal cruelty inflicted by the 'sabs'.

Remind me again - what's the life expectancy of a foxhound?

12-15 years naturally, or somewhere below 9 years if put down when they start to slow down a bit, which is what routinely happens with no attempt at re-homing.

I find it hard to take seriously the apparent fretting of the hunt lobby over 'sabs' showing a lack of concern for the hounds.

God, those awful animal rights activists - stopping FoxHunters from killing wild animals in the name of sport. What are they thinking??

Is it true about the bolt guns?

I mean, greyhounds and foxhounds being killed by bolt guns?

The average age of a fox hound put down for being 'too old for the hunt' is actually nearer 5yrs. Hunters are notoriously cagey about the inbuilt cruelty of their 'bred' animals for the hunt though. Cruelty is by no means reserved for the wild foxes - it also operates much closer to home in the breeding of the hounds too.

God, those awful animal rights activists - stopping FoxHunters from killing wild animals in the name of sport. What are they thinking??
By endangering the lives of horses and people? How is that right?
A horse is an innocent participant. Airhorns, knives, both cruel things to use on a horse.
I have the evidence own eyes. For me that's evidence enough.

As a hunt follower, Saggy, or were you a random bystander?

Either way, I hope you reported the miscreant with the knife/airhorn to the police, & I hope they threw the book at them. Were they prosecuted?

As an aside, I also, in my idealistic student days, went on a few anti- BNP marches.

We definitely used to attract the occasional oddball who was just out for a rumble. They were discouraged as best we could, & we didn't lose too many tears when they got themselves arrested for punching the nearest skinhead.

Their behaviour may have been unacceptable, & an embarrassment to the rest of us, but it didn't make the BNP any more loveable or racism any more excusable.

Equally, if the best you can do to defend hunting is 'but I've seen hunt protestors behave badly!' then I'm sorry, but I don't think it's enough.

To go back to the OP, I think it's irresponsible to contemplate riding a horse in a hunt when you aren't experienced or confident enough to keep it safe.

Why can't hunters just follow a scent trail instead? I have no objection to that if no other animal gets hurt or killed.

Are new hunt participants handed a script of 'why hunting it ok' when they join? Same tired arguments with no evidence to back up what you're saying.

Arguing that some sabs are badly behaved to justify fox hunting is ridiculous. As it mentioning other animal neglect.

I used to work for a landfill company and we had a contract to take the ash from the hunt incinerators. There were tonnes of ash this year. These are not people that care about the hounds.

How disgusting. This actually makes me sick.

Actually binary, converse of your argument ....why were also hunts branded the same when majority hunt within the law.

And....no it to left facts get in easy of your point, the hunts sf dispose of lots of fallen livestock for farmers.

Tons of ash will be from horses, sheep etc.

Most horse use the hunt to put therir animals to sleep when time comes.

Bunbaker, they want the thrill of the kill.

And then they pretend that their cruel sport is all wrapped up in the 'good of the land' and fox control, even when this has been proved a complete fallacy.

Do they still smear the blood of the fox on the cheeks of the first-time hunters? Or is that too grisly even for the hunters now?

Sorry Eve, I don't understand your second sentence.

I accept that the ash was not just dogs, HOWEVER thousands of fox hounds are destroyed each year when they have served their purpose to the hunt.

As for hunting within the law, well what bollocks. Oops we accidentally happened across a fox and couldn't call off the hounds. Even if you were 'hunting within the law' then you are running the risk of breaking the law at any point. The arrogance of the pro-hunt lobby is amazing.

Hunting is vile and barbaric and any loopholes in the law should be closed.

Hold your horses...... Not going to read 15 pages but

1) no hound can kill a fox
2) you hunt a trail
3) foxs are shot ( got to be really good to kill straight away....)
4) lots of townies I am sure are over run with foxes.... I see more in inner city brum where I work than rural Worcestershire where I live
5) first hunt, enjoy having a wonderful rude in nice country....
6) bottom hole of gag
7) sounds silly but first time out etc, attach a medical card as if you were hurt someone needs to know who to contact, where the horse goes etc..... Sounds stupid but hop ended to friend..ok yes only a broken ankle but no one had her yards number, hers etc or her husbands.

Sorry ride

ugh, can't believe I waded through this entire thread and you didn't even go after all that

and why do people get so worked up about it? Look at all the commercial shoots going on everywhere at the moment, why isn't that targeted? Most of the game is raised to be shot and never even gets eaten. It is becoming a really stupid sport I think.

"and never even gets eaten"

I never knew that. That is disgusting. Why can't they go clay pigeon shooting instead.

linerunner I think everyone who hunts are arseholes to the foxes; most of them are arseholes to the dogs; and far too many are arseholes to the horses.

I find that very offensive line runner, having just spent 2 days with 4 calls to the vet for my horse who has an infected leg (not from hunting by the way, just from the wet and mud) - including an urgent Sunday call. My horse, my dogs and my cat are much loved and cared for, they are the reason I choose to forgo other things and I wouldn't have it any other way. The assumption that because I follow a hunt within the law, I'm cruel is a pretty wild one. It follows a trail - 3 chaps dragging a duster - and haven't seen a fox ever whilst I have been out.

What I hate with this argument is the vitriol and viciousness of the language.

That's why I carefully used the qualifiers 'most' and 'far too many', not 'all', frosty.

I was brought up around working dogs and horses and did see bad owners amongst the good owners, unfortunately. People trying to jump horses without having proper control does my nut in. People owning dogs without having proper control or means of exercising them does my nut in.

As you have rightly discerned, I have no good words for the 'sport' of foxhunting. Never have had. I was pleased when it was made illegal.

At our hunts there are two types of 'antis'. The first and majority are the videoers and followers who can be a bit irritating but they usually keep themselves to themselves which is fine, occasionally they have placards with dead foxes on which always makes me laugh as the only time my dd has experienced seeing a dead fox was on their placards. Anyway they have a perfect right to be there and protest although our hunt always hunts within the law so they are wasting their time really but hey ho, they are quite old and one of the ladies is actually very nice and reasonable really.

The second type is the group of youngish guys with full face balaclavas who are trying to be as intimidating as possible who bang on car roofs and usually approach the children (because they are cowardly at the heart of it) and say things like 'arent you a bit young to be killing things?' etc etc. My dd has honed all kinds of smart remarks back (she's a fiesty young woman and won't let a masked bloke tell her what to do with her horse thank you) but I have told her in no uncertain circumstances not to say ANYTHING EVER but to move away as calmly as possible.

We also live next to a pheasant shoot and they are bred purely to be shot for sport. Why the antis don't target them I don't know. Probably afraid of the guns.

Agree Pony - there's nothing wrong with protesting legally, in the same way there is nothing wrong with hunting legally.

I too have been intimidated by balaclava wearing people, it is really scary and they are incredibly in your face too. I've had buckets of water thrown over me on one occasion, my horse's head has been yanked about by someone grabbing my reins and I've also been grabbed at by the legs - all of which is frightening. I have also had perfectly sane, civilised conversations with more peaceful anti's, we've agreed to disagree and each got on with things uninterrupted - that's how protest should be as far as I'm concerned.

I don't condone men in balaclavas hassling anyone - but the pheasant shoot is irrelevant - it's a bit like telling a policeman who has stopped you for dangerous driving to 'go and catch the real criminals' when dangerous driving is a crime.

When the law to ban foxhunting was passed several Hunt Masters went on record to say they would flout the law and continue to hunt. So I don't blame the monitors filming hunts - and indeed, some of them put up with an awful lot of aggression from Hunt followers - presumably because (unlike ponydilemma's Hunt) they are being true to their word, flouting the law and don't want it on film.

Absolutely Sabrina.

Yes, but if you, as we do, hunt within the law and are still followed, indeed harassed by people in balaclavas waving cameras in your face, telling you "we know where you live", pushing and crowding you and generally being aggressive how would you feel? That happens to us and it is horrible, frightening and unnecessary - they are self appointed vigilantes looking for a crime where there is none and scaring people in the process. The police, if notified are either too busy, or not interested and it doesn't get us anywhere.

Imagine yourself going about your legal business, perhaps walking down the road and someone does this to you how would you feel about it?

I would call the Police.

I don't believe the Police are not interested in harrassment and criminal activity.

If you feel you have had a poor response make a complaint through the proper available channels. I was interviewed as a witness once to an alleged 'Lack of Police response,' as part of an investigation by the Police Standards Department, after just one complaint was put in by a member of the public.

As said upthread, 'hunting within the law' is just exploiting a loophole within the law which says that if you come across a fox 'accidentally' it can be legally ripped to shreds by hounds.

The Huntsmen are meant to call their dogs off in this situation but there is plenty of video evidence (also upthread) that they do not.

Agree Sabrina. This 'hunting legally' thing is really quite annoying as if you go on a fox hunt now then you're clearly prepared to risk the hounds catching and killing a fox and therefore breaking the law.

I don't condone the bullying tactics, but I do understand where the anger and frustration of the balakava clad protesters comes from.

Just watched the video and there's no attempt from the hunt to call the dogs off the fox until the lady grabs it. Even then it's ambiguous as to whether they're shouting leave it at the hounds or the woman.

Also the hunt supporters filmed the hunt monitors, so if as has been claimed up thread, he monitors released the fox themselves why is there no footage of this? And an RSPCA prosecution too.

I'm not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of hunting a prey animal, as there are very strong emotions on each side. What I am noticing though is that there is as much defence of the balaclava-clad protesters aggressive and bullying tactics as there is of the right of hunters to hunt within the law.

I am another person who hunts who has been subjected to aggressive behaviour by those who feel the need to hide their faces. When I go hunting I take pride in my appearance, wear my best clothes and present my horse in a clean, trimmed and plaited way. It is drummed into us early on that manners are essential, and that you cannot be too polite when out hunting - to the other members of the hunt, to the general public, and yes - even to saboteurs. The saboteurs, otoh, are for the most part surly, rude, grubby-looking sorts - when you can see their faces!

Why, if the hunters are the ones taking part in the illegal activities are we so happy to have the police around, to stop and chat to the public if they ask us what we are doing, willing to have our photos taken and published on the internet by friends, official photographers and passers-by? Why, if the saboteurs are upholding the law and are taking part in legal activity, are they the ones who cover their faces, shun photography, and scarper when the police show up?

I have had to shield children from saboteurs - I put my horse between an 8 year old child and a bunch of men who were following her with camcorders. In what other situation can you imagine it being acceptable for a gang of men to stalk and film a child? I also had to get a 13 year old boy (who looked a bit older than he was and was on a horse) away from a group of sabs as they were threatening to pull him from him horse and 'f***cking beat him.' Their language is foul and abusive, even when confronting children. I've seen saboteurs punch an adult friend in the face, breaking his nose. Our old huntsman was badly injured when the sabs poked his horse with sticks and when it reared up they pulled it over backwards onto the rider, breaking his ribs. Article here. Weirdest of all, my friend (who is huntsman for a pack of bloodhounds - who hunt a runner with a map over a pre-determined trail) has been subjected to abuse and had eggs thrown at him by apparently clueless antis! Every hunt has tales of unacceptable behaviour from saboteurs.

So what I would like to ask the defenders of the antis here is - if we are hunting within the law, and most hunters genuinely do and set out with full intentions to hunt within the law, how on earth do we get across to those who disagree that we are perfectly entitled to do what we are doing? As someone said in an earlier post;

"it is horrible, frightening and unnecessary - they are self appointed vigilantes looking for a crime where there is none."

The majority of hunters are not out there to deliberately flout the law in a rampant blood-crazed way, despite what many anti-hunters think.

Back in the box those are awful stories. I can't believe people would deliberately pull over a horse and break its ribs. I don't understand how the same people can feel sorry for a fox and on the same day injure an innocent horse. Maybe these sabs are not animal lovers rather anarchist type people or the type that 20 years ago would have been football fans/ hooligan.

I'm always astounded by the depth of anti hunt feeling. Where I live and with my circle, everyone is pro hunting or hunts. It's just how life is. We all hunt within the law . Hunting is as much a part of life as riding and horses are. It's just what we all do.

Sorry, Lasvegas, I wasn't quite clear - they broke the rider's ribs, but they did injure the horse by poking it with a stick. In other cases (but not in hunts I know well,) the sabs have deliberately attempted to use a fox-scent or horn calls to try and get hounds to cross a railway line or road. Some (not all) of them believe that the occasional animal 'martyr' is acceptable if it is for the greater good - a stupidly misguided way of thinking! It is difficult to find news reports dealing with these instances, because the hunt saboteurs themselves flood the internet with stories of how they were using their horns and scents to try and 'save' a pack of hounds from crossing a railway line, when in fact the best person to stop the hounds from danger is the huntsman himself. Any actions by outside parties only lead to confusion and further potential danger.

Many of the more well know attacks occurred in the immediate years after the ban but there has been a rise in recent months. In January Horse and Hound reported a number of frightening attacks by masked men - in one case a man with his 10 year old daughter was beaten to the point that his skull was fractured. Story here.

You are right about it being more of an anarchist movement than one which supports animal welfare. The Labour party is quite happy to acknowledge that the vote against hunting was one that was class motivated rather than animal welfare related. I'm convinced that not everyone who goes sabbing is as interested in the animal welfare as they are in the action!

The class issue makes me laugh!
The hunting and horsey friends I have come from all walks of life.

I have come across very obnoxious behaviour from members of the Hunt when the hounds have come into my garden and been running all over the place,scaring my children and animals,completely out of control.

I would also be terrified going out hunting,OP,if I was with people as undisciplined and rude as those that I have come across within the Hunt.

Back in the box. Glad it wasn't the horses ribs. Obviously the sabs shouldn't have poked a horse, who the hell does that, pokes a rose till it rears FTF. By same token I don't condone poking any man or beast with a stick. I wish I was at the standard to ride on a hunt. Wouldn't care if it was a fake fox or a a scent of a real fox. Surely hunting is like Xcode it about testing the rider and horses skill not about killing a fox.

"The class issue makes me laugh!
The hunting and horsey friends I have come from all walks of life."

Exactly. I come from a very working class, non-horsey background. Doesn't stop other people thinking I come from a privileged background though.

It's surprising how often the Hunt is out and about all over the country lanes,behaving very recklessly with their horses and hounds, with little regard to the traffic around,much less pedestrians.

Definitely cause to be terrified. It's a bloody free for all at times.

Me too skittish.

Really it's a method of pest control. the same people opposing it would kill flies, mice or rats in their house.

I've never hunted but would if I had the time and money. I support the local hunt though and occasionally follow on foot.

'Really it's a method of pest control. the same people opposing it would kill flies, mice or rats in their house.'

You do understand that foxes don't actually require controlling? What with them being territorial animals? & if they did, it'd be the world's least efficient 'pest control' method, since 10x the number of foxes killed by the hunt are killed crossing the road?

I'm fascinated to see comments describing hunt protestors as 'surly, rude, grubby-looking' sorts.

The people the protestors are monitoring are a group who've made it clear that they would very much like to indulge in cruelty to animals legally for fun, &, failing this given overdue legislation against their antics, are amusing themselves by 'acting out' a cruel sport in the hopes of having that anti cruelty legislation repealed, & more immediately, in the hope of 'accidentally' committing a cruel act against a wild animal.

They have all the moral authority of a gang of teenagers tying a firework to a kitten's tail & sulking that they're only allowed sparklers these days & it was much more fun when you could do bangers.

I doubt I'd be terrifically un-surly to someone I knew to be involved in hunting foxes with dogs. I'd aim for civil but certainly not polite. As for grubby - well, I know who looks grubby from where I am. Ugh.

Well said,*ravenAK*.

"with little regard to the traffic around, much less pedestrians"

You've never seen a group of riders suddenly merge into single file as the call 'Car please' goes up from the rider closest to the car. It's utterly drummed into us that our hunts' reputations are based on what the public see and perceive of us, therefore we must be polite and not cause inconvenient wherever it is humanly possible.

RavenAK I merely comment on the hunt sabs we have around here. One of them in particular is a man we call Rasputin - he has slightly mad-looking eyes, dirty matted black long hair, long blackened finger nails, and his clothes are always dirty. Not in the 'I've been out jogging in the mud but will wash these when I get home' sense, more the 'I've sweated for the sake of the fox in these pants - I'm never washing them again!' sense. He does not wear a balaclava though, so fair play to him. Frankly, if you see him even look at you, you duck, hide, wander off. He has the look about him of someone who would attack you just because he happened to catch your eye.

As for this paragraph;

"The people the protestors are monitoring are a group who've made it clear that they would very much like to indulge in cruelty to animals legally for fun, &, failing this given overdue legislation against their antics, are amusing themselves by 'acting out' a cruel sport in the hopes of having that anti cruelty legislation repealed, & more immediately, in the hope of 'accidentally' committing a cruel act against a wild animal."

So much lack of understanding I don't even know where to begin.

Did you have any erudite thoughts on how to defend a gang of full grown men in face masks videoing an 8 year old girl? Or the masked chaps who beat a man senseless in front of his 10 year old daughter?

I go out hunting without intention or 'hope' of catching a live animal. I DO have a need to ensure that the fox population is controlled on my property - last year I went out to my chicken run and found a vixen and her 3 youngsters inside, having scaled a 6ft high fence, and they had killed or maimed nearly 20 chickens. Thankfully my children were not with me, as they like to feed the birds with me. It may be lovely to let the foxes go where they want but the world does not work like tah I use a mixture of cage traps, snares, and a man with a big gun to kill them. Is this more acceptable? They are certainly legal.

On the very first page of this thread there was something sneery about "posh country cunts" - it's a stupid class war and those idiots probably buy battery chicken from Waitrose in Putney. Boo fucking hoo.

As for "blooding children" - omg - that's akin to saying "all city kids are ragamuffins, urchins and work up chimneys". Where do you even begin to get this nonsense? Have you been reading too much Enid Blyton?

@Backinthebox - I've said, any number of times, that I don't defend unpleasant behaviour on the part of hunt protestors. At all.

That sort of thing pisses me off enormously, because it allows the 'well, yes, we do rip animals to pieces for fun, but see here! Blokes in masks! Behaving appallingly! Therefore, we fox-rippers must be lovely!' fallacy which seems to pass for argument amongst the hunting fraternity.

& you can control the fox population legally on your land all you want, of course. Just don't insult our intelligence by claiming that you + a big gang of your mates + a fuckload of horses & dogs is a cost effective way of doing it. Chicken really isn't that expensive.

Back unfortunately it has been my personal experience that huntspeople on horses can be all over the road in front of our car.I have also had to hang about while walking with my children (who were very scared of dogs at the time) because the pack was in the road with no sign of a Hunt member controlling them.

It's rude and arrogant,and I am glad to hear that you take measures not to do this.

FWIW,I also keep chickens and have lost a fair few to the fox over the years.

I still believe and have always believed that fox hunting has no justification whatsoever.

My feelings of horror and disgust run strong and deep.

The weird thing is that even when fox hunting wasn't banned,the gamekeeper still needed to shoot the foxes that were taking the pheasants for the shoot.

Then the pheasants are shot,with numbers of them being disposed of uneaten.

Where's the point in it all?

Oh yes.

'Sport'.

VerySmallSqueak - quite so.

ravenAK you say:

"you can control the fox population legally on your land all you want, of course. Just don't insult our intelligence by claiming that you + a big gang of your mates + a fuckload of horses & dogs is a cost effective way of doing it. Chicken really isn't that expensive."

Firstly can you point out to me where I have said that I use a big gang of my mates and a 'fuckload' of horses and dogs to control the foxes on my land? Or where I even mentioned anything about the cost? I was quite explicit about the methods I use, and at no point has a fox ever been hunted with a pack of hounds on my land.

Secondly, to say 'chicken really isn't that expensive' is a ludicrous comment. Does that mean that it is OK for me to keep chickens and not make efforts to prevent the fox from killing them because chickens are cheap and foxes are wild and that's what they do? FWIW I value my chickens - much more than you can appreciate, by the sound of it. I have spent a lot of time and effort breeding them and trying to maintain purity of old breeds. It's really disheartening to check on your birds one day and discover that several years of breeding efforts have been killed for whatever reason it is that foxes kill many more than they can eat. Two of the breeds I keep have taken me years to find enough unrelated stock of sufficient quality that I can use for breeding. Your comment is a cheap one (pun intended.)

I reckon any insult to intelligence going on around here is being done by you - your second paragraph attempts to put words into my mouth too.

You can make all the efforts you want to protect your chooks, & I don't blame you in the slightest for doing so.

I'm a bit baffled by the somewhat overdone outrage at me saying that hunting with hounds is not a sensible or cost effective method of safeguarding chickens, though.

It seems like we're in agreement over that at least.

I would say outrage is a bit of an overstatement, more a weary, exasperated request for you to point out where I said (as you clearly state) that I claimed fox hunting was a cost effective pest control method. Hunting in it's present, legal form - which combines the public face of trail hunting within the law alongside the engagement of various forms of legal vermin control such as shooting and trapping - is a convoluted and expensive way of doing things.

Many people still enjoy the ability to ride across land that farmers would not otherwise allow them to ride on (the farmer is able to access the hunts' fallen stock and vermin control services for free - our hunt even provides a rat control service for free to anyone who asks! Rentakill, and even the council, would charge you.) It's a quid pro quo - the farmer benefits, and allows the hunt on his land. My horse is used regularly by a member of a bloodhounds hunt staff - they are loosing meet after meet this year because farmers gain nothing from bloodhound and drag hunting, and the higher speed and jumping involved in these hunts is not good for the wet ground in weather like we are experiencing.

I'm quite OK with antis having their thoughts and opinions, and I defend the right of anyone to make reasonable representations in defence of their beliefs. But I am quite within my rights to be irritated that you are trying to put words into my mouth. Point out where I said it was a cheap pest control method and I will back down. I have often found that empty vessels make the most noise, and much of what you can find on the internet about hunting, the ways things are done and how how the law is being upheld or not are posted by the saboteur community. I begrudge having false statements attributed to me, whatever the subject.

I also lost a line of chickens I had bred.

Even if hunting that particular fox responsible was an effective way of dealing with the problem,there is no way I would resort to chasing it with hounds until it was exhausted and terrified. Not now,not ever.

I am a countrywoman. I respect life and I respect nature.

How did you get on OP ?

I think, many pages back, OP decided not to go.

Oops ! got tired of the arguments so didn't read it all

Amazed she considered going on a horse she has ridden, what was it 4 times ? braver than me !