"if we do badly your pay will drop"

(40 Posts)
Verycold Thu 10-Jul-14 07:56:31

"So you will make sure we don't"
is a comment I've heard in more than one class now. And which really sums up a lot of what is wrong with the education system...

whereisshe Thu 10-Jul-14 08:00:25

Pay based on overall performance of the organisation is fairly normal, at least in the private sector. Horrible way of putting it, however - threats are not a successful way of motivating people.

Verycold Thu 10-Jul-14 08:00:58

This was a comment made by pupils

VivaLeBeaver Thu 10-Jul-14 08:02:45

The comment isn't correct though is it?

Teachers pay isn't affected by pupils' grades. There are kids who will do badly no matter how good the teaching is.

Verycold Thu 10-Jul-14 08:04:09

I know, my (badly made!) point is that the pupils' attitude is very telling - some take no responsibility for their own progress

VivaLeBeaver Thu 10-Jul-14 08:05:23

You're right. I hope you put them straight. grin

I'd be disgusted with dd if she had such an attitude.

Wait4nothing Thu 10-Jul-14 08:05:32

Tbh I don't think performance related pay is a bad idea - but only if it is true reflection of my performance - fair lesson observations/benefit I bring to the school ect. Not how the children I teach perform.
Unfortunately, some come from homes with no food, some don't have a good nights sleep and some live with drug and alcohol abuse and even domestic violence.
When a child can't access the learning because their little brother is in hospital or their older sister is dying - I don't carry on regardless. I support these children (while continuing to teach the others) and try to keep school the normal in their life.
Are these kids going to make at least 4 points progress? No - but they may just think of school as a safe place and their teacher as someone who cares.
We need to stop thinking of children as linear learning machines and we may have a chance!

JustAShopGirl Thu 10-Jul-14 08:07:14

welcome to the real world - performance pay, where similarly, the efforts of those more junior, on minimum wage (with limited possibility of advancement and hence could not give a damn) count towards your salary.... the attitude is already prevalent in the world outside education too.

Wait4nothing Thu 10-Jul-14 08:12:17

My pay is affected by the pupils grades Viva - one of my unreachable targets is 4 points progress average (this used to be outstanding progress but is now only considered good). So if johhny doesn't get a level 4 my pay may not progress. This is despite many good and outstanding lesson observations recently, as well as a lot of long hours and hard work. What johnny does for the other 18 hours a day doesn't play a part.
My husband works in the private sector - yes, one part of his pay rise is determined by over company performance but he also has an indiduvidual part - and has managed to get a rise above that expected due to his hard work - ever hear of that happening in schools?

VivaLeBeaver Thu 10-Jul-14 08:14:14

I'm sure a lot of teachers wouldn't object to performance related pay if its based on their performance, their teaching. Not on pupils' performance.

Pupils aren't junior colleagues. There's a big difference. If a junior colleague isn't pulling their weight, bunks off, sits in the office all day scratching their bollocks and not working they'd be sacked. You don't really get that options with students.

VivaLeBeaver Thu 10-Jul-14 08:17:56

wait4nothing. That's really bad. I had no idea that pupil performance could affect teachers pay!!

I'm in the nhs so I'm no public sector basher. I'm actually marching this morning even though my union isn't striking. Dh is in the private sector (not a high flying banking job either) and seems to still be getting pay rises, overtime, bonuses, etc.

I haven't had a pay rise in 3 years, working conditions are being eroded. From next month we have to work an extra hour a day, unpaid! Our pension contributions have shot up so take home pay is less every year.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Thu 10-Jul-14 08:50:23

Pupil attitudes like that are very prevalent.
Recently I have been told that various things 'are your job' - such as when I had peer marking of an exercise last week, I was told - 'this is a waste of our time, this is your job' and when sending a pupil to fetch some lined paper from an adjoining classroom as she had not brought her exercise book to the lesson 'It's your job to have it in the classroom'.
One of the reasons I will not be renewing my temp contract with this school.

Rainydayblues Thu 10-Jul-14 09:01:48

I'm not a teacher but what I have noticed is that we don't allow kids to fail, they don't learn from mistakes because we make sure they don't make them, we pack their bags, we make decisions for them, we walk them to school when they should be going by themselves. Parents take responsibility for the homework in both secondary and primary....teachers are incentivised to drag kids through exams rather than allowing them to fuck up and learn from that. Kids are not learning independence skills - they are not learning to take responsibility for their lives, their learning - who are the good grades for - parents and their boasting on Facebook?

If my kids do well in exams...I try to get them to focus on how it makes them feel not how proud I am of them because it's the inner motivation that will drive them through the hard stuff in life....passing an exam, getting a good report should be reward in itself, the child should be encouraged to feel proud not the parent!

13Stitches Thu 10-Jul-14 09:18:22

Rainy - you're absolutely right about not allowing kids to experience failure. And the consequence that they don't feel they need to work as we (the teachers, parents etc) will ensure they succeed.

And to a certain extent, if they turn up but refuse to focus or ever do homework, I can get most of them close to their target grade. Its an insane amount of work on the teachers part. In-depth learning (analysis/application) isn't ever achieved (a willingness to try is required). But I can just about get enough facts in to get them through reasonably.

Is such a shame. They could so so much more. But as you say, I'm now providing a service. It's my job not to teach, but to provide a C grade on a silver platter with peeled grapes on the side (metaphorical, of course).

ReallyTired Thu 10-Jul-14 09:27:08

Shitty attittudes of kids is not a reason to not have performance pay. Children can be mouthy and obnoxious and its up to head teachers to have have a strong behavioural policy.

Perhaps child benefit should be performance related. Ie. parents whose chidlren have attendence below 95% or those who fail to attend parents' evening without good medical reason could have it replaced with food stamps. The famiily would not lose out financially but parents would hate being given food stamps instead of money to spend as they pleased. The food stamps could even be used to pay for school dinners for key stage 2 to 5 children.

LostInMusic Thu 10-Jul-14 09:27:17

I think that the total disparity between the massive workload of a teacher and the complete lack of effort made by far too many pupils (to the extent of them barely picking up a pen for the entire 2 year GCSE course) was the biggest reason why I left teaching. It just became utterly soul destroying.

MissYamabuki Thu 10-Jul-14 09:37:46

Performance-related pay is good in some trades, it would be disastrous in others. Can you imagine if it was applied to the NHS? Surgeons might choose not to operate the difficult cases and only go for the easy stuff that would make their stats look good. Sorry if you're a tricky case!!

Same in a school - kids that need a lot of input to get a bit of improvement would fall through the cracks. We are human and most of us work for the money (at least in part!) so I think this would be inevitable....

I hope I never witness this as I think that's not what public education and public health are about.

ReallyTired Thu 10-Jul-14 09:42:18

Performance related pay can work provided that the targets are fairly set.

I done some exam inviligating and I have been shocked to see children turn up to a GCSE maths exam with no pens, pencils or ruler or calculator. I feel that schools should not lend equipment so freely. A child having a calculator with a flat battery or a broken pencil is different to a child who has made no attempt to bring kit. A child who tuns up for a public exam with no kit should be allowed to fail!

ReallyTired Thu 10-Jul-14 09:44:11

Why do some schools in deprived areas get good results and other schools moan about the kids. Clearly individual teachers cannot make a difference on their own. A good schools have dynamic heads to believe the kids can achieve.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Thu 10-Jul-14 09:45:15

Perhaps child benefit should be performance related. Ie. parents whose chidlren have attendence below 95% or those who fail to attend parents' evening without good medical reason could have it replaced with food stamps. The famiily would not lose out financially but parents would hate being given food stamps instead of money to spend as they pleased. The food stamps could even be used to pay for school dinners for key stage 2 to 5 children.

What good idea! You should lobby your MP!.
(Inevitably people will come along whining 'it won't work' but wouldn't it be good to try some stuff instead of giving up on them)

LumieresForMe Thu 10-Jul-14 09:49:04

Performance related pay is crazy for teachers. And in the private sector has never shown to improve results either.
Lots of studies have been done in the past with sakes people where their pay is directly related to how well they do. Except that they actually to better when there udnt he pressure to earn more/get more clients or orders in.
And this is in a case where you can easily measure if the sale person is doing his job well (ie how did you sell?). With teacher where the evaluation is tricky at best, it is obvious it will be very counter productive.

I'm really wondering if all these politicians have actually thought about their measures they are suggesting before implementing them.

Rainydayblues Thu 10-Jul-14 09:57:57

Dh used to work in the civil service. Performance related pay meant that only the top 10% in his team got a bonus. Despite dh being conscientious, hard working and making a massive, well recognised contribution it was someone else's year and they got the piddley poor bonus instead of dh....he swallowed his disappointment and found a much better paid job outside the Government sector where they reward him for his contribution and where he is not in direct competition with his colleagues to out perform each other and where his salary and reward are not set according to Politics and pleasing the Daily Mail.
Performance related pay and targets have their place but use them at your peril - they are subject to the law of unintended consequences, bruising and rewarding in the most unexpected ways...

LumieresForMe Thu 10-Jul-14 11:45:34

Tbh if teachers feel their role isn't teaching anymore but just ensuring the children/teens get the minimum required, then it's the end ifvthecefucstion system.
And I'm not surprised that bright pupils aren't stretched either. Why would you donthstvyhectescher your job isn't to gruntled best outbid pupils but to have them achieve scary level?

Not the fault of the teachers though. It's the fault of the politicians who think that education is working the same than a factory with clear set task to achieve at each if the process. As if...,

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Thu 10-Jul-14 11:49:39

autocorrect? grin

JustAShopGirl Thu 10-Jul-14 15:54:12

We "don't attend parents' evening".

Oh dear, didn't realise it was compulsory, or a sign of being a "bad" parent.

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