Where the Wild Things Are

(939 Posts)

I have an eight month old Border Collie called Meg. She is far from perfect (and so am I).
Today she has been about 60/40 good. The 40 included chewing up my camera memory card which DH is sure he put safely on the mantelpiece. Every time I look down at this screen she takes a quick munch of the coffee table with her eyes on mine. This despite a 2 hour walk which included much in and out of streams.

Gooner123 Sun 23-Feb-14 17:34:09

I don't think it's possible to wear out a collie,I'm afraid,our old one would chase a ball from morn.till night if you threw it for him.

sewingandcakes Sun 23-Feb-14 17:35:56

I've got a 3 year old one and she's still bonkers. Not as bad as when she was younger, but not perfect in any way!

Ours started chilling out a bit when he was about 12!

Having said that, he was still saying 'go on, throw the ball...!' the day before he died.

He truly was the best dog in the world grin

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 18:44:03

Signing in. Great idea to have a support thread for people who have teenager dogs.

Pip will be 9 months old on 1st March. He's generally pretty good but like, many teenagers, has moments of selective deafness and erm, questioning whether he really has to do what I say.

He's back on the longline at the moment. Used to have great recall, but has decided on occasion recently that he enjoys his freedom too much to have it curtailed by me, so better safe than sorry.

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 18:47:27

Have to agree about not being able to wear out BCs. they are just designed to go on and on ... and one.

Oldgirl was a BC x Belgian Shepherd and she was still full of energy when she was nearly 14 and we had to make her slow down when she was diagnosed with osteosarcoma. We knew the end had come when she didn't want to run around like a fruit loop anymore. I was just watching at a video of her haring around the garden with Lurcherboy a month before the cancer was diagnosed.

People would regularly ask us if she was a pup, right up until she was around 10 years old.

Crikey Blackbird 11 years and 4 months to go. We had a border collie so idle you had to roll him off the sofa to get his breakfast. He used to dig himself caves to sleep in all day. He watched a lot of telly too. I can see him yet. My mum had one sunbed and he had the other and when he was hungry he used to stagger off his chaise longue and go to the pantry where the tins were kept and pick one of dog food (he could read- he could tell dog food from peaches) and drop it on her head.

Ok, where do I fit in? smile

16 months old Springer and 13 week old cocker, I can't straddle two threads!!!

My Springer is 6 and is fab in the house. Now.

Why did you choose a working dog?

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 20:40:43

Needa, I'll still be on both. I'd feel bad if I decamped and left the newer members.

Exit, even within breeds dogs differ greatly in their development and behaviour. As barbarian said, they've had a BC before who was nothing like this one in character and behaviour.

Barbarian does a lot of training and work with her dog, many people have issues at around this age and their dogs, with the appropriate amount of training and exercise, turn out to be fantastic, well mannered members of the family. The dog I mentioned upthread was the nightmare puppy from hell, but turned out to be one of the easiest, best behaved dogs we've had. She took her own sweet time to mature, but with time, patience and consistency she got there in the end.

Cool, I will inhabit both then Moose too.

Our Springer is and always has been chilled, the cocker is showing worrying signs of having rather more energy, but also is exceedingly quick in the brain department, already outwitting his 'brother'.

Personally, I don't mind the energy levels and exercise needs, most of the time!!

Just asking. confused hmm

I just like BCs Exit, Meg is the 3rd, although the 1st bitch. !st was the lazy one, second a rescue that we got at about 2 so didn't see the puppy months with him. I wasn't being serious, we all adore her. (DM anyone who wants to see Meg learning to load washing machine!)

Moose, thank you- they are all different and all fun and PLEASE don't leave us for the little puppies!

Fabulous - a teenage thread. Thanks barbarian for creating one and love the name!

I have a 7 month old English sheepdog asleep by my feet right now but frequently challenging in terms of behaviour!

Recall is really tricky but most other things have improved and settled except barking which is worse. He likes to make himself heard and gets easily wound up by the boisterous 8 yr old in the family!

I took heart though recently when I was walking with a very experienced dog owner - had 5 at one time and lives on a farm with horses - a real no nonsense woman, mum of a friend of mine. We walked for 40 mins and she watched our dog tearing around, coming back 80% of time and at the end of the walk she said what a lovely dog he was, that he had a way to go but that he was going to make a lovely well behaved dog. I was dead chuffed!

How do people that do very little training/rule setting manage teenage dogs?

I know one of the answers to your last question, Mint, they give them to their mums to look after. My friend with house lined with pale cream carpet has just been donated a large black only slightly trained 7 months old spaniel from her lovely dd!

No! That's terrible! I made my DSs start going to puppy classes with me - the teenage son was very reluctant - just so they'd be aware of what was involved.

I seriously hope neither dump me with a half trained teenage dog to mind!

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 21:48:40

Exit, my apologies. Just re-read my post and it did sound snippy. I didn't mean it to. Actually I read your post wrong and thought you were saying you had a perfectly behaved 6 month old Springer. Doh!

Sorry, I'm not firing on all cylinders at the moment. blush

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 21:52:47

Barbarian, I know someone else that did exactly the same. Kept her as a handbag dog/baby until she became a teenager, then basically dumped her on her parents whenever she couldn't be bothered with her.

Poor dog is totally unsocialised, completely untrained and snappy with both people and other dogs.

Interestingly, she is also a black spaniel.

Lilcamper Sun 23-Feb-14 21:59:18

Do I count with a 2 year old Lab? He is almost through his teenage phase but not quite smile

On the positive side - you can really see the personality come out in a teenager! I was wrapping a couple of parcels today with duck tape so noisy. I was standing at the kitchen counter next to dog bed and wondered my the dog wasn't lying at my feet on his bed as he usually does.

Then I noticed him, he'd squeezed himself under a kitchen chair and was staring up at me scared at the noise I was making! Only thing was he's too big to fit under a chair so was half under- well, head only with 3/4 of him sticking out!! He did look funny. But I'll remember he doesn't like duck tape!

He also stands and barks at the kitchen bin if the lid is up - he just barks and barks until someone flips the lid shut!

I think spaniels can be as hard work as collies actually, Moose. This one (nice, not snappy) came to her first season and that was that. But she is in a good place now.

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 22:09:10

Yes of course you do, Lilcamper - the more the merrier!

I know what you mean mint. As you know I've not been too well. Pip has been so sweet with me. He's changed from his usual gung-ho "come on Mum, let's play" mode to coming and putting his chin him my hand or his head on my lap.

I was just thinking how extra sweet he was being when he came up and rested his chin on my shoulder yesterday - that was until after a couple of seconds, the little darling reached round my neck and yanked my ponytail! shock Cheeky little monkey! He was so pleased with himself too! grin

We've just bought a new bin. We keep ours in the back porch area and h'd learned that he could ask to be let out, wait a few seconds until we'd left the porch, then let himself back in and have a snack. hmm He seriously doesn't like our new metal pedal bin - too clangy and it doesn't dispense treats as he believes all good bins should! grin

You know that if you flip the lid shut every time he barks he's never going to stop don't you? wink Clever Minty, has you all very well trained. grin

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 22:12:58

Glad she's in a good home now barbarian.

The spaniel I was talking about is show-type and absolutely tiny. I've never seen one so small. She came from a backyard breeder and has had endless health troubles. It breaks my heart.

She doesn't live with the parents, but is constantly shunted back and forth between the two houses and spends more time at the parent than she does with her owners.

She's getting on now and is always at the vets. Her owners are already talking about getting another dog - large, highly unsuitable working breed this time. hmm angry

Oh sweet Pip. It will be interesting to have a 2 year old Lil, something to aim for!

Meg climbed on my lap and put an paw round each side of my neck and her head on my shoulder when I was sad the other day. How do they know? BC1 used to go and fetch his old blanket for miserable people and drape it over them. Very endearing.

Ha ha you're right Moose he does!! There's no end to his control over us - he stops our conversation mid flow by barking, gets us to leave shopping by the door and go and fuss him by barking, brings me downstairs when I'm settling DS2 into bed by barking, gets me up off the sofa by barking and on and on!

BUT you can't ignore a big deep old English sheepdog bark, you really can't. It's penetrating and we're in a semi detached. Hopefully our training is complete and he'll start to leave us alone soon!

Pip sounds so sweet and loving.

When I was a teenager and prone to bouts of desperate crying over boys/friends/random existential crisis, my dog used to sit next to me on my bed and lick my tears! We adored each other and I confided in him totally. Dogs can be so loving.

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 22:23:47

Aw, Meg sounds like such a sweetie - and fetching a blanket for sad people is just the sweetest thing ever.

Pip brings his favourite stuffed toy to people sometimes. He doesn't want to play with it, he just likes to give it to to his favourite people to hold disgustingly manky thing it is too. You know he really lurves you if he brings you Goosey Lucy. grin

Mint I know - well you know what I'm like about worrying if my dogs might disturb my neighbours - I'm the absolute worst for it. It's hard to ignore them when you have attached neighbours to worry about isn't it?

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 22:24:56

Pip is sweet and loving ... most of the time. Other times he's a typical norty teenager and loves nothing more than pushing the boundaries.

Lilcamper Sun 23-Feb-14 22:26:39

He is a lovely cuddly lap dog that loves nothing more then to flop upside down across my legs for a cuddle but recall and LLW is a serious work in progress. It has been said that Labs are eternal puppies...meh!

Teenage border here...but of the terrierist variety. Lots of energy but with renegade terrierist tendencies. Eeek!

Luckily he does not seem to be a furry killing machine but he does harbour the usual terrier propensity to throw himself into heart stopping situations with relish. Has anyone ever read Jeremy Strongs 100 mile an hour dog to the kids? Well the illustrations are wrong. Streaker is not a laid back pointy hound...she is a fully fledged terrier if you ask me.

He is very sweet and loving but only comes in two speed settings - off and on!

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 22:35:25

Lilcamper, isn't it funny how they can drive us to distraction with things like recall and LLW, but all they have to do is give us a nice big floppy cuddle and our hearts melt? I honestly believe that dogs are far smarter than they'll ever let on to us daft humans. grin

Fanof, I've not read that book, but am now looking it up. Sounds like my dcs would love it! I love Border Terriers. That's what we'd agreed we were going to have this time around, but when the time came I knew in my heart I wanted a rescue Lurcher pup.

Dh wanted a greyhound/whippet/lurcher and we did go to see a rescue grey x whippet who was lovely but he set off DS's dog allergy. We decided to look at BT's for their low allergy potential at first but I think I'm team terrier for life now...suckered in!

lilcamper - nice to have all who wish to contribute I reckon smile

fan - can't imagine having anything else but a spaniel now, apart from a retired greyhound when I am retired and grey myself.

I realised recently that our old BC was far too intelligent for me - well, he was cleverer than me.

Our Springer x is really quite dim - suits me perfectly. When I mentioned this to the husband, he just nodded sagely and quietly agreed with me. Ratbag!

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 09:24:00

I have that with my two. Lurcherboy is gorgeous, but thick as two short planks. Clicker training him is painfully slow - you can see him trying and almost hear the cogs in his head squeaking, but he takes forever to make the necessary connections.

Pip on the other hand is sharp as a knife, super fast with clicker training and you can kind of see him weighing situations up, considering his next move. He's a crafty beast when he's in the mood.

Both totally different but utterly lovable for their own quirks and ways. smile

Lilcamper, do you have any thoughts on what might be going on for Lurcherboy as per my other thread here. I'm really worried about him. He's booked in at the vets later this week. There's something I just can't quite put my finger on about his general demeanour, as well as his change in behaviour out and about. If you have any thoughts I'd be really grateful to hear them.

ShadowOfTheDay Mon 24-Feb-14 09:59:13

we have a "teenaged" Westie - 2, so just coming out of it now (only teen behaviour he still exhibits is the sheer exuberant joy of chasing a bird off his patch - including those on the telly)

He is the cleverest dog I ever had... the girls were playing with monkey toys the other day and he dragged HIS monkey toy over as if to say "come on - can I play too"... he also got given a toy at Christmas by my MIL - and whenever she comes he goes and gets it and sits at her feet as if to say "I've still got it, come on play with me"

And my girls have trained him so that when they say "where do you want to go?" he makes a warbling sound that everyone says sounds like "wa-wa-wa-Walk"

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 10:28:02

Your boy sounds lovely - and very bright, Shadow. smile

I thought our Springer was pretty bright, he picks stuff up quickly. The cocker puppy - blimey, super clever smile

Funny how they are all so different isn't it?

The springer has been house bound for 3 weeks due to a paw injury, I noticed on our first walk yesterday some selective hearing, so I will be working on him this week smile

ShadowOfTheDay Mon 24-Feb-14 10:33:25

smile he is....

mine also does the Pip thing with the "most valuable" mankiest thing he owns - and drops it ON you to let you know you are part of his family and he loves you......

my hubby particularly "likes" the way the dog shows he loves him by occasionally putting a mouthful of food in his shoes....

Shadow smile

NigellasGuest Mon 24-Feb-14 11:01:59

Are we too young to join? My 5 month old cocker puppy shows distinct signs of teen-dom. He regularly gives me the finger [figuratively speaking] when I ask him to "come". Happy to circle round me, keeping close, but actually come up to me so I can put on the lead? No way. I have resorted to sneaky luring tactics......

Hey moose no problem.

At 6 months old my springer used to frequently reduce me to tears. wink

Ok, I am pleased with my mutts today smile

Just come in from a walk at the local park/public space. Lovely day here, so it was packed, clearly a lot of the schools had a training day too. Lots of dogs.Lots of dogs with owners not in control. Which is unusual, as this place usually has tons of really well behaved dogs.

Pleased with ddog1 for recalling brilliantly, even after having 3 weeks of not walking so he was highly excited, but even more so with the puppy, who recalled just as well, and did every 'watch me' or 'sit' that I asked, even when out of control dogs were charging around us, with owners trying to catch them. All of the dogs also stole my dogs balls, but they didn't react, so happy with them. All of the dogs followed us, rather than their owners smile

Three incidents of dogs chasing us as we played, an insane Labradoodle, whose owner I did judge, until I chatted with her, and found she had only had her 2 months, then an insane pug, then a lovely but boisterous lab.

All good experience for a 13 week old puppy smile

There will be many many posts moaning about them, so I will take the good days while I can!!!

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 14:44:24

Needa - will you come and train my two please! grin

Between Lurcherboy's odd behaviour and Pip's attempts at being a teenager I am feeling like a pretty useless trainer just at the moment. sad

No moose, because next week your two will be fabulous and my two will be driving me batty smile I am sure it works that way.

I think I have found the last three weeks harder than the dogs, lack of routine, exercise etc.

It just went well today, tomorrow will bite me in the bum smile

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 15:16:37

Finn is beginning to show signs of being a teenager and I was only saying earlier we need to go back to basics. I find it difficult with three different people walking to be consistent. DH is especially poor, training school for Husbands anyone?
I think he thinks dogs arrive fully trained and doesn't quite get the hard work I put into our previous dogs but this time I'm working full time so he has to do a lot more.
I've got a uni end of module assessment due in next week so keep promising myself I'll get stuck in to some intensive training after that.

EvenBetter Mon 24-Feb-14 15:42:47

My pointer cross (apparently) is about 6 months old and is so wonderful.
Unless you try to walk her on a lead, or let her off the lead then she fucks off and all the things she loves indoors hold no appeal. It's pure luck that we ever get her back, she just goes onto another planet when she's sniffing and all her other senses shut down.
I heard that pointers stay in their rebel phase for about 2 years. FFS.

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 15:47:49

Nigella, sorry, missed your post somehow. Everyone's welcome, we just didn't want to scare the younger puppy people with our tales of delinquent teenager behaviour! grin

Needa, I don't believe a word of it. You are so dedicated and put in all the time and effort, therefore you deserve the well behaved dogs you have.

NCIS, how old is Finn now? Please excuse my dreadful memory.

I made dh sit in on all my dog training sessions when we lived up North. He even switched the times of his lunch hours and worked late so he could take me to the puppy training group I wanted to go to, as it was 40 miles away.

I can't wait for the fields to dry out so we can get some non-park walks and my two can have more freedom. The way down to our local fields is impassable at the moment, as there's a flood under the railway bridge.

Laughs at Evenbetter, Liver is my friend, or those cheap dreadful hotdog sausages smile

Nigella - all welcome, nice to chat smile

NCI - I am sort of in between moose and your DH re my own DH. He actually did all the KC training, and gets up every morning with the dogs, does lots of training, but doesn't do clicker, or interact as much with them and is more likely to tell them off, thinking they understand. He loves both tons though smile

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 16:44:34

Lab lump seemed to have forgotten all his LLW today and literally pulled me all the way to the field. Always a reason, he was desperate for a poo and was good as gold for the rest of the walk. Even chose to ignore some other dogs in favour of doing some trick work with me smile

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 16:48:00

My secret weapon for recall (well not so secret now I suppose) is chorizo (I buy the pre cut snacking stuff from Tesco as, being veggie myself, I can't stand the stuff). I find my two love it because it's so stinky. I also use little trays of good quality cat food and the occasional mini tray of Butchers dog food - but only the ones that are just meat and rice or meat and veg. wink I try to vary the rewards, throwing in super tasty surprises every now and again to keep him guessing. So, a basic recall where he comes back with no enthusiam or speed might get a bit of cheese, but if he stops what he's doing and comes flying back at rocket speed he gets something much tastier.

Pip is at that nearly always responds, but every now and again decides to push the boundaries and ignore. He's been on a longline anyway due to a recent leg injury, so I've been working hard at getting him to recall shorter distances on that and building up the distractions.

I could really do with finding an enclosed field to hire so we can start working on free-running again - if the vet says his leg is ok when we see her this week.

Like Evenbetter's girl, he is unlikely to be mature until 18 months - 2 years though, so I'm not thinking he's going to be reliable any time soon. He's still very much a pup, full of cheek and fun, he doesn't cock his leg yet (still squats to wee) and doesn't appear to have noticed he's a boy. Mind you, he's my third male dog and none of them have ever shown any sex related behaviours because I am a horrible prude and constantly interrupt and redirect the poor sods. blush

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 16:50:33

Lilcamper, at least he didn't do it right outside your neighbour's house, as is Lurcherboy's favourite trick. I think the excitement of a walk makes him need to go right now, so I've taken to doing a couple of circuits of our own driveway before we go, then I can clear up and bin it in our wheelie before we go out. Which would be great if he wasn't a double poo-er. hmm

Meg doesn't retrieve her ball and bring it to me. She shows it to me and then goes and chucks it in the stream and then races off to catch it further down. The stream has an orange clay bottom and now so does she.
NCIS was that book you got about things to teach your puppy any good?
Moose, I hope you are feeling better.

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 16:52:37

Finn is nearly seven months now. Normally very well behaved. DH does loads of walking with him, easily 2+ hours especially at the weekends but doesn't practice recall on those walks, atm Finn is fairly well attached and refuses to lose him but I can foresee a time when he is braver and heads for the hills.
At home DH seems to think the dog understands long complicated sentences telling him exactly why he shouldn't jump up. I know Border Collies are clever but not quite that clever.grin They do love each other though and DH says he's hugely rewarding to walk.

Moose- I am so glad we don't have to do park walking, I only saw one dog today and it totally ignored Finn despite him doing his most seductive wiggle at it. If a dog shows no interest in him, Finn will move on and not approach which I'm pleased with.

He spent the walk sniffing out baby soldiers who were trying to sneak around, not much point when you have a dog whose senses are never switched off and can smell, hear and see them blink!

Ooh I have a 17 month old staffy who is actually the work of the devil. grin
Well, not all the time. But he can be an absolute nightmare sometimes. The "bad" today included refusing to move from the park. Literally sitting down and refusing to move. And chasing the cat across the dining table.
Staffy pups are quite, quite mad until about 4 years old IME. Then they turn into BigDog who likes to sleep for about 21 hours a day, refuses to set a paw out of the door if it is too cold or raining, and hides if he thinks he will have to walk in the rain.

I make all 3 of my DCs go to puppy classes every Saturday. They were not impressed at first but they love it now. Most of the time. They were not quite as keen when LittleDog was the worst behaved dog there by a mile.

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 18:39:15

oh the shame blush the lovely and very experienced dog walker who has Fitz for daycare on Mondays has just dropped him back and said that he'd had to have him on the lead the whole time as every time he let him go Fitz would leap onto the nearest dog and hump as if his life depended on it

he was completely ignoring the dogwalker and took no notice of the other dogs telling him to get lost sad

wahhhh

He started when he started cocking his leg at about 5.5 months (he's now 7 months) and it's built up over the last 6 weeks and now it's really starting to cause problems

He's booked in for castration on Thursday as the vet says this may well help but the effect won't be immediate - how do I deal with this in the meantime?

He is absolutely lovely in every other respect - he's very bright, mostly well-behaved, completely non-aggressive, is a star at training class, very affectionate - it's just this sodding humping ....

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 18:54:57

Humping isn't necessarily solved by castration if it is triggered by over excitement I am afraid. Even spayed females do it.

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 19:00:43

But dealing with it means distract and redirect before he gets to the humping point.

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 19:02:38

As Lilcamper said the castration won't necessarily help - but it does for some dogs so don't lose hope.

If it is excitement he should calm down as he gets older, but you'll need to do lots of work on interruption and even better, getting his attention onto you rather than other dogs until he's matured and calmed down a bit.

What's his ultimate reward - toy/food? Can you possibly transfer/redirect the excitement onto that?

Alternatively, if he's just really hyper-excited and can't seem to come down, you could just go for calmer, quieter walks and do lots of work on capturing calmness (Kikopup has quite a few videos on this on YouTube) until he starts to settle down a bit. He's still getting socialisation at training classes, but in a very controlled way, which will reward/reinforce the appropriate behaviours, hopefully leading to the undesirable ones going to extinction.

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 19:02:43

im spending my sodding life distracting and redirecting - he's better with me but it's becoming really anti-social

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 19:04:42

Sorry, thinking on the fly here, I would say if he runs after other dogs to do it you have a recall problem not a humping problem. Common in teenage dogs, back on a long line and loads more recall practice. Don't let him run off because the more he does it the better he will get at it.

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 19:04:46

ultimate reward is a squeaky ball ... I can usually keep his attention on me with that but his socialisation is limited at the moment

interestingly he doesn't do it anything like as much with his friends he's known since he first started going out to the park, much more with new dogs

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 19:05:24

no he's not running off - recall mostly fine

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 19:05:49

hated using the longline - got us both completely tangled up in knots

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 19:06:39

it's dog central here - there's nowhere I can go where we won't meet dozens of other dogs ...

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 19:11:06

It could be displacement behaviour if he is unsure what to do around these different dogs so resorts to one of the 4 F's. Fight, flight, fornicate or fuck about.

moosemama Mon 24-Feb-14 19:18:30

shock Lilcamper, back in my day we used to say Fight, Fight or Fiddle and Fart about. I must be getting old! grin

basil, did he start doing it around the time he started going out with the dogwalker? Just wondering if Lilcamper is on to something there. If he's feeling a bit unsure of how to interact with the dogs he's being walked with he could be just getting it monumentally wrong and they getting overstimulated and zoned, iyswim.

If the walker is happy to keep him on the lead, it might be the best way for him to learn to relax around the other dogs. Could he perhaps start off keeping him on a lead until he shows signs of starting to relax and then move to a longline.

How many dogs is he walked with?

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 19:27:04

Hehe, I was loosely quoting David Ryan smile

EvenBetter Mon 24-Feb-14 20:43:06

I carry smelly biscuits, meat slices, stinking dried liver and a dried chickens foot on walkies, and the adorable little bastard couldn't care less. Leaving me looking like I'm on my way to some kind of satanic ritual.
Think I'll put her on the long long long lead that was meant for my step-lurcher...

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 20:50:24

The good thing is, when I take Finn for a walk he comes back to me, possibly because I fix him with the same evil glare I used on the DC's when they were small.grin
He is only a (minor) problem when the others take him out.

I have never found a treat or toy that is more attractive to the terrierist than another dog. Puppy in my pocket anyone? grin

Had a situation that could have been potentially very scary today. Dog was at vets and the clip on his lead clean broke off...cue dog skittering round surgery in delight. Dread to think what would have happened if walking at roadside!

basildonbond Mon 24-Feb-14 21:09:05

it started when he started to cock his leg - about 5-6 weeks ago now and has just got worse and worse (I'm assuming as the levels of testosterone rise)

I think today was particularly bad as this was a new bunch of dogs - there's 6 in total with two adults - and although part of it was almost certainly to do with being wildly over-excited that's not the only reason

the dogwalker is lovely - and the best round here by miles as he takes them for proper dog walks and really focuses on them - rather than the majority of dogwalkers I see who have about 10 dogs on the lead and mooch them slowly around the common for about 20 mins then they're back in the car

Next time he's just going to go out with 2 other dogs to try to keep things a bit calmer and we'll see how that goes

it is frustrating as apart from this he's pretty much perfect!

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 21:15:14

I think I'm going to push for neutering ASAP just as soon as I get this OU assignment in as we will probably have to use day care for Finn soon. DD has got a job now which will involve her moving away(pesky child, first ever interview and she bloody well gets the job, proud emoticon smile) so if DH's working from home and my shift patterns can't be dovetailed then it will be doggy daycare for the hound.

sweetkitty Mon 24-Feb-14 21:24:55

Oh here you all are grin

I have Nala a 7 month old Rhodesian Ridgeback bitch, she can have great days and other days drives me mad. She's very food orientated and a complete food thief which is hard when she can counter surf with ease. She will steal food off the dining table or out the DCs hands so anytime food is out she's either outside or in her crate.

Today she was great on her walk her BFF is a 7 month old Doberman and they adore each other hooning around, we also have two older dogs who come on out walks, they have told her in no uncertain terms who is boss and she's find with that she follows one around like a big brother.

Recall can be touch and go about 90% there. As you have said just as well they are just adorable.

smile at Evenbetter.

I suspect my success today was due to wearing a different coat and finding in it half a dried up hot dog sausage. It hadn't gone mouldy, just rock hard. Kept letting the dogs nibble a bit every time I recalled them!

Poo bags. Now in every pocket, on the bedside drawers. Stash in the car. Usually one in the washing machine. Found one in my work handbag the other day.... They are all empty btw...

Basildon. I don't know about the cocking leg thing though, Harry cocked his leg from about 15/16 weeks but was obviously still very much a baby, I actually felt sad!

Hector humped Harry tonight but they were play fighting and getting highly excited.

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 21:40:31

Hector humped Harry? Sounds like a title for a porn film. grin

My whole last sentence does smile

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 21:46:25

Possibly because I'm halfway through a bottle of wine after a run of horrendous night shifts. My thought processes are slightly suspect.

Lilcamper Mon 24-Feb-14 22:12:55

Going to seriously rock the boat here, my dog was 2 on New Year's Day, still intact with no intention of neutering!

Well that's okay Lil, these puppies that we worry about so much were not found under gooseberry bushes!

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 22:48:41

Are you sure Barbarian? I'm sure the little angel asleep on my feet was. grin

I wish my little angel was NCIS. Instead she is trying to extract chicken liver pate off a teaspoon taped into a toothpaste box trapped under a laundry basket with the hearthrug on top. On a shiny floor. It isn't very restful.

NCISaddict Mon 24-Feb-14 22:57:56

grin grin That's border collies for you. It's why we love them.

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 09:23:37

Pip still isn't neutered either. Appointment at the vets tonight to discuss his leg and whether she's happy to speak to the rescue for us about delaying neutering further. Also need to get her to look at his eyes as they seem a bit red and irritated.

Think I've found a decent dog walking service locally. They are behaviourists, run training classes and do dog walking and home/pet sitting. Think the best course of action is to get them to take Lurcherboy out (after he's been checked out at the vets) on his own at first, then when they have the measure of his behaviour, with a couple of other dogs (they only walk a max of 3 at a time). Then, while they're out I can concentrate on training Pip, who doesn't need such a long walk, but does need lots of stop, start training and work around other dogs. Only downside is they have no prices on their website. Hoping they will be able to wear Lurcherboy out, as like Needa, I do find my two's differing exercise needs awkward to balance and Pip can't do long walks until he's quite a bit older and skeletally mature.

Going to give them a call and arrange for them to come and meet the dogs. They do a free home visit to start with to discuss what you want and be introduced to the dogs.

Lilcamper Tue 25-Feb-14 09:41:00

Oh Dog no, I have no intention of breeding from him, big Lab lump has some fear issues that we are working on, if I take away his bravery hormones it will reduce him to a quivering wreck. That's why his plums are staying put grin

I haven't decided yet about Hector yet. Harry was 'done' at 6 months, but he was going under a general anyway due to having a tumour (common in puppies, not serious) removed from his foot anyway, so we had him done. Had I known that he would be so accident prone, and that there would be further opportunities later on, I might have made a different decision.

I think I am going to research it more thoroughly this time. Would having a plum free dog and one with plums have any bearing on my decision, love the description Lil smile

Thought Harry wasn't recalling today, he stood in the middle of a field while I shouted and shouted him. I walked over, trying to be calm and not show any frustration (failing probably) and it turns out his boot for his poorly foot was hanging off, can't wait to get rid of the boot, the damn dog limps when it's on, walking normally when it's off!

Let us know how the vet visit goes, we have our first puppy class at the vets tomorrow, I am going for the socialisation reasons really, plus it's free, the dog trainer we use has a course but charges.

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 20:03:25

Dh just back from the vets.

First off it seems Mr Pip has a respiratory tract infection, so that was eyedrops and antibiotics £70.00 thank you very much. hmm Vet thinks it's highly likely that Lurcherboy has it too and needs the same treatment - so that'll be another £70.00 for him at his appointment later this week. Not sure if that has any bearing on his behaviour over the past week, I know I'm a right grumpy cow when I've got a cold/flu, so it could at least have a bearing I suppose. Interestingly I did notice that Lurcherboy appeared to have a runny nose this afternoon. I noticed it, thought it was odd, then just assumed he had got hot all snuggled up in his memory foam bed. blush

He was supposed to get his kennel cough vaccine this evening ready for us to start acclimatising him to kennels, but that couldn't be done because of the infection. We were supposed to taking him for a walk around the kennels next weekend, then leaving him for an hour while we have lunch at a local pub the next weekend, then leaving him for an afternoon (to include a good romp around their fields), then leaving him just before they close and picking him up first thing. Obviously dependent on how well he does at each stage. We need to leave him for 2 nights in May and another 2 in July so he has to get used to it. Annoyingly the people we've found to do dog walking also do house/pet sitting, but they leave the dogs for 3 hours in between walks, while they walk other dogs - so that wouldn't work for our two.

She's manipulated his leg fully and watched him walk and said he seems ok and there's nothing obvious, which is reassuring. She's going on holiday at the end of the week, so she said, keep an eye, see if we notice a pattern of specific times when his gait seems off and come back to her when she's back if we're still worried and if we want her to she'll organise xrays, but as it stands she doesn't feel it's necessary.

Finally the neutering. She doesn't want it done yet and she's happy to speak to the rescue about it directly if they want to call her - so that's a load off my mind. Problem is they have to call her either Wednesday or Thursday this week or it will have to be in a fortnight's time, as she'll be away. Dh is going to call the rescue first thing tomorrow to discuss the situation and give them the vet's details.

Apparently she couldn't believe how big he's got and told him he has legs like stilts! grin

Lurcherboy is now in a big old strop because Pip went out without him - he wouldn't have minded a vet visit himself, as he absolutely adores her. Daft dog!

Barbarian - what an assault course you set your dog for a lick of pate! He must love it and I think I will copy your idea and see how minty gets on. Must be fun! We use lots of boxes for food and sometimes under tea towels but nothing as complex as you!

Moose- sounds great dog walking people, hope it works out. Do you think it would be suitable for your overnights though if they're together in a different house, being left for the 3 hrs? The change in environment might mean they respond differently. What a pain about the health issues you're facing though, poor Pip and Lurcherboy

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 20:31:50

Barbarian, I missed Meg's pate assault course challenge - brilliant! grin

Mint, they stay with the dogs in your home, so it's really not an option.

Forgot to say in my last post. Dh said Pip was a star at the vets. There was another dog in there when they were waiting to go in and he was really good, able to focus on dh, happy to take treats and absolutely no fuss or hiding. grin

Oh I see they stay in your house! After packing/departing for a holiday there is no way in a million years my house would be tidy enough for visitors!

What about the kennels? Are you happy with them? A pain to have your well thought out settling plans set back though. Hope you still get pub trip!

You lovely people came into our tea time conversation tonight!

We have a massive family dilemma about minty. It's really dominating family mealtime conversations, DS2 has been in tears about it and I dreamt about it recently so there's a fair bit of worry going on. Anyway we had a breakthrough tonight when DS2 said "I know what to do! Just ask your mumsnet friends" DS1 then said "yeah just ask Moose, she'll know"

Funny when MN comes into RL! So our dilemma is coming up in a sec - just got to settle DS2.

Moose, poor Pip and Lurcherboy and your bank account! I hope they are better soon. I will never forget the winter our vet spent swanning around the GB Reef entirely funded by our rabbits teeth...
Or so it seemed at the time.
the assault course started out as good as a short walk and I highly recommended it as a boredom buster. But here it now takes 4 minutes and is more like a party trick.
The other good boredom buster we have is hide-the-kitchen-timer (in one of those kongs that unscrew). It is a nice quiet game because they have to listen for the tick.
I need to start clicker training again soon- I think she might be ready for it now. She was too hyper when we did it at puppy class. However, I am running out of ideas for reward treats- tried chorizo and she was terribly sick- no good with rich food in any sort of quantity which also rules out cheese and too much pate. Chicken is loosing the novelty as is Primula cheese.

Mintochick, sorry cross posts. I hope Minty is okay. Yes, Moose will know.

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 21:16:16

Oh blimey, I barely let people over the threshold of my house, let alone stay here overnight without us around to hide all the mess in our bedroom! blush

The kennels are brilliant. My dogs have been going there since the early 90's with just a few years off when we moved up north. The lady that owns them is a total softie and always tries to fatten Lurcherboy up whenever he goes there - she can't bear skinny Lurchers - so he gets tonnes of treats. They walk them three times a day in their own, well fenced fields and all my dogs have always been happy there - to the extent that most of them have tended to drag us down the drive to get there when we drop them off.

We just need to handle things very carefully when it comes to getting Pip used to going there - although he is now doing an hour and a half in the kitchen with the door shut during the day and doesn't make a peep. I am in the house, either in the next room or upstairs and haven't tried it with me going out the front door yet, but it's hopeful.

Very blush that your ds2 thinks I am a doggie know-it-all Mint! grin

Barbarian, I know what you mean about funding the vet's lavish lifestyle. Why is the treatment always just under their insurance excess as well. Blooming £40 odd quid a month to cover both dogs every month and so far only one month without a vet bill on top - that isn't covered. hmm

A few on here that might!

Our dilemma is that my parents have had a timeshare holiday cottage in Scotland for the past 30 years for one week in April. I / we have gone every year without fail whether the week falls in school hols or not, because it is a beautiful place with gorgeous walks and peace and we all get on brilliantly. However my dad has been poorly recently, is sort of better but now very frail, in his 80s and doesn't like dogs. My mum is fitter, loves dogs, adores minty!

Should we take the dog or leave him at home?

Minty jumps at my dad, not often but frankly once is too often as my dad is frail. He barks at my dad and my dad doesn't know what to do so holds his hands up and issues long complex instructions to minty which makes it worse. Minty is big, boisterous, noisy and can't really be ignored.

I'd rather leave minty at home as I keep thinking this is my dad's holiday, he deserves peace to enjoy it and who knows how long we have my dad for. I'd hate my dad to be upset. BUT the boys have been looking forward to having a dog at the cottage for years! They talk about the walks we could have with minty, it would be our first holiday with him and they would be gutted to leave him behind. The cottage is open plan so stair gate at stairs but whole kitchen/dining/sitting area is open and too big/wide to section off. Minty is too big to crate now.

My dad will spend most of the holiday in the cottage as he's too poorly to go out far - maybe a daily trip to a tearoom but not out for more than an hour a day. Minty also spends most of his day inside with one long walk a day. We normally cycle, swim in the pool on site, go to restaurants, go to islands for day long hikes (that wouldn't be suitable for minty as they are 6 hrs out so too much walking for a 10 month old and there are free roaming sheep on the islands and they'll be lambing and I wouldn't even risk taking him on the lead)

Any ideas? We are really stuck with this one.

Sorry for the pressure Moose! DS1 didn't say it in know-it-all way, he thinks you're cool knowing all this dog training stuff! I didn't realise how frequently Ill be on my iPad and will read an idea out to everyone. They love it!

Your kennels sound fabulous.

Mint, I have an idea because I know the kennels we looked round the other day (lovely place) offers it for people on holiday around here.

Is there a kennels local to Scottish cottage you could leave Minty in, and collect him for day time walks?

How long have you got to train? My BIL is seriously afraid of dogs. Meg is very very bouncy. We have train her to lie flat at his name. I know it sounds silly but it has worked. DM me if you like with your email, and I will send you a quick video clip of what it looks like.

Wow that sounds amazing. So she will lie down when BIL name is called and you can do that when he walks in the room? I will PM you but might have to do it tomorrow as I'm up and down stairs after DS2 who is as unruly as the teenage dog! Teenage boy, no problem!

I think DSs would be heartbroken to leave minty in kennels each night. I don't think they could cope. Leaving him at home once for the week would be easier. Plus our drive to Scotland is 9-10hrs so I'm also worried about the journey and thinking easier on dog to stay local, easier on dad too. But I love the training idea - that would help no matter what we do about the holiday.

Mint, yes, we started it seriously about 8 weeks ago. Now if his name comes up in conversation down she goes. You don't have to call it, you can just say, "What will you do when K arrives?" in a normal voice. It was easy to teach.
BIL seriously bitten 3 times as a boy, and properly scared. He finds it hilarious and reassuring. Once down she waits for 'OK' to get up. However BIL not frail at all and really he is at no risk from Meg. I mean if she did jump him (she won't I don't think) she wouldn't hurt him.

It is a real problem. If I had no other choice, like you, I would leave Meg behind. Unless worth investing in a bigger crate?

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 21:52:26

Mint, in your position I would do one of two things - or maybe three things.

1) Leave the dog at home but agree with the boys you will take him somewhere equally lovely for X weekend as compensation. (Could you sell it to the boys by explaining that he is too young to join in most of the activities you normally do. So, either they will be disappointed at not having their usual holiday fun or they will have to do it with only one parent, so someone can stay to look after Minty as he can't be left with Grandad or alone in a holiday home.)

2) Look for accommodation close to your parents' holiday home, so you can take Minty and spend time with your parents - although that idea will limit you in terms of hiking etc and some places may insist on crating. Some B&Bs take dogs or see if you can get a late deal on a self-catering place.

3) See if anywhere local does dog daycare or is a home pet-sitter that would have him in their home for a few hours each day.

Thanks to you both .

We have run through the idea that dog in cottage = no day hikes, no family cycling trips, one parent only trips everywhere etc. So been very stark. Both boys are saying they'll gladly miss those things and stay in cottage all day (except for one long dog walk) just so minty can come. They love their bikes so I'm amazed at this.

Good idea to research dog sitting, I'll do that. Also the cottage site has several cottages and there are some available to rent and they all allow dogs uncreated. BUT they're gorgeous cottages, we couldn't afford to rent a week. My parents bought their week 30yrs ago when it was a derelict set of old stables /farm buildings. They cost next to nothing as it was all dreamy plans of one guy and was high risk. It's worked wonderfully as a development so they're expensive but very dog/child friendly. My mum suggested they rent another cottage on site but I told her that was a ridiculous expense. Now I'm thinking maybe we could go halves and take the hit - if it's one of my dads last holidays it will be worth it.

Sorry - they allow dogs uncrated!

We used to take our family dog when I was a teenager and my mum and I walked him locally/pottered while my dad went off on long solo hikes with his sandwiches in his backpac! There are loads of dog friendly walks as lots of forestry commission land so no sheep/lambs there.

Pubs also very dog friendly so maybe we could be out as a family more than I'd imagined.

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 22:06:56

Sounds like perhaps going halves is a possibility or how about telling the boys you can only do a weekend (if they'll take short break bookings) if Minty comes too?

That sounds the right idea- you won't get the time back.
Maybe by next year you can share a cottage again- Minty will be more steady by then hopefully.

You might still consider teaching Meg's name trick. Maybe the boys could do it.

DH doesn't think we can ask my parents to half fund a second cottage when they already pay the annual maintenance fee and then open it up to all 4 of us freely! He has felt slightly awkward since we had kids that we invade the place with our noise, muddy boots, cycle helmets etc and then apparently I tend to share out the child-related jobs amongst all four adults blush

So I can see his point though my parents always say they love having us there. No way we can afford a week but they do part weeks so I'm going to explore that.

And local dog sitting. The thing is I wouldn't mind upping the daily walks and doing two big ones assuming minty would then sleep in between and in the evening. But I think he's too young for that (maybe I should ask vet) and when he was younger we worked out that he was most hyper when he was over stimulated. His trouble has always been locating his off button - he tends to have a silly hour in evening just when me and DH are sitting down to relax and he'll leap around, bring toys to be thrown, bark at us, then finally settle and flop at our feet - but it will be 9pm by then and my dad is going to bed at 9 nowadays.

Maybe we need to spend the next few weeks working on a down command to my dads name and more self control around playing/ settling in evening. I find training him easy when it's just me and him but even one extra person in room has him all excited and skittish.

Really not wanting to place a downer on any ideas of taking him mint.but really think long and hard (and I know you are smile).

I'm just thinking of how my grandad was in the last year. I saw very little of him as he couldn't even cope with toddler ds. I know he would have struggled with dog.

I know the idea is perfection meaning you all go together (my destination plans have moved from padstow to filey to better suit the dog!) but this could be very important time with your dad too.

I think I'd only do it if there was a way round having the dog in their house else I think your nerves will be shot.

I know fan I get what you're saying.

I am worried about us trying the training route and finding it goes well at home but less well in a new place especially if I'm tired after the journey. It's our first car journey with dog and as this is the first year my dad can't drive we are trying to persuade my mum that me and DH will share the driving of their car with her so me and DH will be doing more driving than usual, plus dog issues. Me being tired is a worry as I'm the one the dog listens to most.

But my mum keeps saying "it'll all be fine, we can't leave minty behind" and she is insistent that he's part of the family now. But she is a big dog person and she doesn't get that my dad is not, she's not being unkind to my dad, just thinks he should enjoy 'normal' life without lots of change.

So I'm stuck between kids/mum and dad with DH unsure too. DH thinks we could make our bedroom the dogs domain as the cottage is on a hill so you can access bedrooms by climbing short hill and going in top door so no stairs. But he settles less well without us - he really needs company not bring shut in a room. He lives in our kitchen and it works fine because there's always someone in the kitchen and when my dad comes for tea he stays behind stair gate and we eat in another room.

Could the big compromise be that someone stays in the bedroom with him at all times other than mealtimes? With the kids taking turns too?

I know it isn't ideal but I think a perfect solution is going to be hard sad

Yes I can see that we would need someone responsible at all times - maybe we could use his indoor lead all time (currently use it if he jumps at someone) but it could always be on and someone tasked to hold/train him
All time that he isn't lying sleeping.

Sorry to dominate and thank you for some really good ideas - let's chat about something else now!!

moosemama Wed 26-Feb-14 11:33:42

Hope you manage to come up with a solution that works for all involved Mint.

Pip has had two lots of pills and eyedrops and has been a right pain-in-the-rear all morning! grin He must have been feeling rough poor thing, but other than intermittently pink eyes (which we thought were probably an allergy) there was no clue he was poorly. I daftly thought he was maturing a bit and that's why he'd been a touch calmer than usual. blush

Feel like such a bad owner, especially as Lurcherboy has the same thing and it's more than likely that's what's behind his odd behaviour. blush

My only excuse is that I have been ill for weeks now and perhaps if I'd been well and more on the ball I'd have spotted it myself. Still feel awful about it though.

Mint (will shut up after this!)
What about one of those hands-free cross body leads for indoors? And anchor him with a boy? You could start getting him/them used to it before you go.

Get well soon, the Moooses! grin at bad owner!

moosemama Wed 26-Feb-14 12:14:21

blush

Dh has also gone down with nasty cold and is convinced that both him and dogs caught it off me. hmm

Typical male reaction Moose! Doesn't sound like you could possibly have spotted that type of illness in Pip if red eyes/slight oddness were the only symptoms!

I've never seen cross body lead free harness but I'll look online, thanks.

Barbarian - just learnt a bit about salsa dancing there during my search for 'cross body lead'!! But I did change it for leash and get there in the end. I'll shut up about this soon too - looks good and has got me thinking that maybe we could get his harness out and start training him that in the sitting room at home, harness goes on, attached to chair leg say and his job is to settle. Maybe I could clicker train him to settle when harness is on? That and really sharp control though Megs down command might make a big difference.

How you doing Moose with your dog walker? She sounds so much better than some out there judging by the dog walking thread.

LadyTurmoil Wed 26-Feb-14 13:39:31

Give yourself a break Moose! You're a fantastic down owner by the sounds of it, have had a lot to cope with recently, they'll be fine grin

mint - sorry, I have missed contributing to the situation, I hope you get it sorted, it's hard that you are juggling that many folks wishes at the same time.

moose - give over, you are a fab owner, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. At least you knew to consider a medical reason first before going down the behaviour route.

Puppy party for Hector today, who spent almost the entire time under a chair, venturing out sporadically to sniff bums!

He's a lot shyer with dogs than Harry, although has no issue at all with any sort of person that I can introduce him to, but I need to up the ante with other dogs. Trying hard, we are meeting lots of dogs daily but I know I don't have all that long to keep going with this before 16 weeks.

So, I took them to the public park again and he was quite brave with 4/5 new dogs, shy sniffs of bums.

Harry was manic, having had so little exercise and knocked the scab off his paw, just superficial though thankfully. Revved up by the lady with the labradoodle who has no recall whatsoever but still lets her off lead, steals my dogs toys and chasing them all over the park, rolling Hector twice.

Did meet another couple with a small terrier, who bent down to pet the puppy and Harry ran up and stole his hat, I was mortified!! This has stemmed from DH thinking this is hilarious to let him do this to himself... luckily he did drop on command. The guy just laughed though thankfully.

Then, Harry ran over to a stone monument where this poor toddler had scattered loads of bread for the birds and stole some of the bread. He did recall on command, but with a huge mouthful of bread and a devastated toddler.

Told you, it would be me the next walk!!

Sounds a hilarious day for you needa! You're going to have great fun with those two.

I wouldn't worry about hector - as long as he's seeing dogs daily he'll gradually come out his shell. He's got big brother a protector too!

NCISaddict Wed 26-Feb-14 19:11:15

We've had a lovely walk today, for the first time the flag was down on the ranges so I could walk up there. It's totally fenced in and acres of heather and woods for mcsquidgygorgeousness as Finn is nicknamed to bounce around in. Felt so lucky this afternoon, beautiful weather and the sound of birdsong and my little loon bouncing through the heather.

We only saw one other person who had a very dignified dog with an elegant coat who looked utterly disgusted at this scruffy collie leaping around the heather like a jack in a box after a crate of red bull! He didn't go near her though so all was well.

moosemama Wed 26-Feb-14 19:19:22

You are all too kind. I am a long way from the perfect owner - but I do try my best. blush

Needa, you sound like you've had a fun filled day! grin Our best friend's brother is a gamekeeper and trained his first Working Cocker to leap up and take people's hats off on cue - it was his party trick and very popular by all accounts. smile

Lots of my dogs have started off under chairs at puppy classes. Oldgirl famously ran under a stack of about 100 metal church hall chairs at her first class and didn't come out until everyone had gone and there was only the trainer with her Border Collie pup (Oldgirl's best mate) left. The next two weeks were similar, but thankfully with her under our chair instead of the big stack. She soon came round, although was never all that fussed by other dogs. She had great communication skills, never had a cross word with another dog in all her 14 years and would generally say a nice hello, but that was it - she preferred to ignore other dogs if not approached. Bloody great from a dog walking perspective, as she never ran off after other dogs or got into altercations.

I was laughing this week in relation to needa's post from a few days ago about poo bags everywhere - even in work bags - I was at a work meeting yesterday rummaging about in my bag for a small thing of post-it stickers - came across a little scrunched up sandwich bag with few scraps of old sausage chunks in! Must have been from weeks ago so glad no one noticed any smell emanating from me! Or maybe they did and too polite to say.

Just changed minty over to Simpsons salmon and potato after researching whichdogfood website and finding a fantastic indep dog shop where the owner is trained in dog nutrition and only stocks really good makes. So will see if it calms minty down as his previous food was science plan which is full of maize.

Mint please tell me what the new food is- we need to change here too. Hard to know where to begin but Meg is turning up her whiskers at Burns (she is 50/50 kibble/proper food) and very far from calm.

PS those cross shoulder leashes- saw them being used at puppy class- have never tried them myself though.

Mooses, hope you are all feeling much better.

basildonbond Thu 27-Feb-14 12:41:02

Have taken Fitz to vet this morning for his op - poor little thing bounded into the surgery as they always make a big fuss of him and give him treats - wonder if he'll be so keen next time??

Barbarian - we are trying Simpsons puppy sensitive salmon and potato. We are aiming for the Simpsons 80/20 meat/veg (it's all grain free) but shop owner thinks we need to use this one first as it's lower protein so is a step in between the Science plan and Simpsons that we are aiming for.

The owner has an 11 mth old lurcher that she rescued from Ireland (or from a UK rescue that had brought the lurcher puppy over from a rescue in Ireland where it was about to be PTS) and he was used to scraps so very underweight. She has built him up using Simpsons puppy, now Simpsons adult and really rates it highly. Her lurcher is gorgeous so clearly it's working.

Why are you changing Meg?

Poor Fitz. What time will you get him back?

Changing Meg just because she only eats it as a last resort and I feel sorry for her! (I know, I know, but in the interests of research I tried a bit myself and I could see exactly what she meant).

basildonbond Thu 27-Feb-14 14:54:08

Have to call at 3 to check how it's gone but can't pick him up until he's come round fully, has eaten and wee'd etc so prob will pick him up at about 5

He just couldn't understand why I wasn't giving him breakfast - he was doing his best appealing face too!

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 14:58:05

No time, got to fetch ds2 and dd, but Mint the cross shoulder leads are double clip police leads. They sell them on ebay and I recently bought one for Pip from the same people that made his longlines.

Basil, I know how you feel - perfectly normal to fret a bit while they're in the vets, but he'll be fine - the two dogs I've had neutered barely seemed to notice anything was - ahem ... amiss.

BB - Harry was running around the next day, which wasn't strictly allowed but he was absolutely fine. Both mine get knocked out by a general, other dogs leap up and are happy as can be a couple of hours later. In fact, Harry wobbles around like a drunk smile

Laughs at mint re the sausage, dog stuff gets everywhere doesn't it?

And mint, you were correct, Hector had no problem at all with any of the dogs we have met today, about 8 in total!! I am trying hard smile They were all little .models of politeness to be honest, and he gently greeted them all too. Met a super cockerpoo, so different to the labradoodle we keep meeting

Harry's paw is nearly better, just the last tiny bit to close up, so he's had a good run over the grass of the park, mecca for other dogs, so great for Hector. Don't usually drive this much to walk the dogs, but it's so rural where we live, we don't always/often meet other folk with dogs.

Harry is pulling like a sod on the lead though now, and I need to perfect my technique with two leads and dogs!

moose I remember your posts previously about puppy classes. Hector has been fab today, but I fully intend to keep going to this park, it's so soft for Harry's foot and full of dogs. He's 14 (I think) weeks on Saturday, so if I can expose him to as many different dogs just for a few more weeks at least, it will be worth it.

basildonbond Thu 27-Feb-14 15:43:27

All went fine smile he's awake but a little wobbly and I'm picking him up at 5 - yay!

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 16:04:15

Glad it went well and Fitz is awake and ok. Good sign that he's already eaten - sounds like he's going to be one of the dogs that recovers from the GA quickly.

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 16:11:29

mint this is the lead we've just bought. It comes with a leaflet to show all the different ways it can be used eg cross body, round the waist, short/traffic, long-lead etc.

Example of one in use with an OES! grin

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 16:16:29

Eurk, just seen the reference to a certain dog trainer I definitely don't want to endorse. angry Sorry, just Googled for an image of the lead in action and chose the one with an OES.

Thanks Moose and don't worry we"ll ignore reference to that trainer.

Have you seen any of the David Hogan dog trainer videos - he uses an OES called Tiffany and he's lovely - the trainer and dog!

You're doing great Needa with all your socialisation.

Great that Harry is all fixed and nearly home. Quiet few walks for a week or so?

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 17:07:57

Not heard of David Hogan, will have to look him up.

Pip is obviously feeling quite a bit better today. He's been far more lively than he's been and spent much more time running around outside. Hadn't consciously noticed, but thinking about it he hadn't been doing his loopy Lurcher impression churning up the lawn for a few days.

Lurcherboy's turn at the vet's tonight to get his medication sorted. Poor dh has the vets at 6.00, then parents' evening for ds2 and dd at 7.00. I'm not well enough to go to either unfortunately, so he's flying solo for both. I missed their last parents' evening, back in October, as well - as that's when I had the previous vile fluey virus bug. hmm

Roll on the spring, dry fields and parks and no more colds/flu's!

NCISaddict Thu 27-Feb-14 17:10:24

Finn mugged a baby soldier today for his cereal bar, he snuck up on him as he was lying on his tummy in the undergrowth, the chap in charge was snorting with laughter. Apparently my dog could teach them a thing or two about sneaking up on people unnoticed.grin Finn did leave it when I told him to which I was pleased about.

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 17:20:02

Norty Finn - but very good boy for leaving it when told. grin

Glad they saw the funny side. Perhaps you could sign them up for a 'stalk like Finn course' and make a few bob on the side! grin

LadyTurmoil Thu 27-Feb-14 17:26:23

NCIS you'll have to get Finn a camouflage dog coat like this

NCISaddict Thu 27-Feb-14 17:30:44

He doesn't need any camouflage, he's silent and deadly grin, the army have always been lovely with him, they've said before they could do with him to round up the youngsters when they get lost. he generally stays away but the food smells were just too tempting and i must admit I didn't notice them lying there until it was too late. Not sure the poor lad will ever live it down!
He was extra good after that even leaving a ball another dog walker threw in our direction, very good for him as he is obsessed with balls.

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 20:23:20

Good news. Dh has had an email from the rescue saying they are happy for us to delay neutering until it's the right time for Pip, as long as we are still committed to neutering long-term.

I was so worried they were going to make us do it and mess up all the behavioural work we've done and are still doing, not to mention the potential for osteo issue in later life.

He's making such good progress, I'm as confident as I can be that if we wait till maturity, by then he'll be fine.

It's a huge load off my mind. smile

I got in a muddle there with so many of the puppies poorly recently. So sorry to Needa and BB, I got Harry muddled for Fitz!

Hope Fitz is back home and happily sleeping off his op.

Your location sounds great NCIS - lovely to feel so safe walking amongst soldiers!

That's really good news for Pip! Great he can stay intact till ready for the change.

Moose - are your potential dog walkers happy to take him on on that basis? I've been checking out a dog boarder for a few days in May and she said she has no blanket rule re: intact dogs, but assesses each dog individually in terms of how well they get on with the other dogs which seemed sensible.

Mint, I think I managed to send you Meg.

NCIS, wish we had somewhere like that to walk. I am so tired of the same muddy tracks.

NCISaddict Thu 27-Feb-14 21:21:26

We are very lucky, acres of heathland/woodland in every direction, I have to drive there but only a ten minute drive. There are advantages to living near the home of the British Army.

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 21:30:05

The dog walkers we've found take entire males. The only rule of that type they have is no in-season bitches.

Still not sure if we're going to go for it though. I keep clinging to the hope I'm going to start improving soon and won't need to.

No worries, thought you were talking to me anyway!!

We are lucky to where we live, a long rural walk in any direction I go from the house, although I will drive too, to get to other close by places that I know are good for dogs too.

Good news moose.

I was wondering how much variety folk 'do' for their walks. I have a friend who does the same route in the morning and then another one in the afternoon and never varies. That would drive me bonkers as I love the variety and happen to think we are lucky where we live to have so many lovely places to walk. Also like to give the dogs new sniffs smile but what do other guys do?

smile at Finn

moosemama Thu 27-Feb-14 22:16:24

I find the dogs get bored, as do I, if we do the same walk at the same time every day. Walks are adhoc here, they happen when I feel like it, when I've finished my chores or when I am avoiding them depending on my mood! grin

I have about 6 routes I can do from the house, encompassing 2 parks and the fields (of which I can pick and choose from several). I don't tend to do the fields on my own often though, as I always feel more vulnerable there - despite having two great big hairy hounds with me. blush

When Pip's older and able to walk further on lead I will have 2 more (much nicer) parks to choose from.

Weekends we do various country parks or if pushed for time, one of the 2 parks that are too far to walk to with Pip.

That said, if I'm not in the mood for a big walk or lots of 'handling' with Pip around other dogs, I do know what times to take certain routes so we can have a nice walk without meeting any other dogs. Most people round here seem to walk their dogs at the same place and time every day - you can set your watch by them.

NCISaddict Thu 27-Feb-14 22:49:08

I have three or four 3-4 mile circuits I do which are all on common type land. One depends on if they are live firing on the range but the others are always available so I rotate.
Like you Moose i find there are certain time that are quieter, weekend early mornings at about 7.30am are really deserted, especially if it's raining. Sometimes I don't mind company and sometimes I'm really antisocial, fortunately Finn is always sociable.

kippersmum Fri 28-Feb-14 00:58:33

I am so pleased to have found this thread! I have a male 6mo BC called Kipper who we all adore, but he drives me bonkers at times! I havent read the whole thread (it is v late & I need to go to bed after working late!) I would be interested to know how much I should be walking Kipper. At the moment he has 1hr morning with beaches & fields, 30 mins after school pick up, again beach time with ball playing plus an extra 40 mins first thing on the lead for school run when it isnt raining & 30 mins in the evening 2 days a week when it is cubs / rainbows nights. I have had people tell me I'm either walking him too much, or not enough?!?! opinions please...

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 06:53:58

Finn, also a BC, who is seven months old has up to three hours a day, nearly always two hours,sometimes more at weekends mostly off lead. He sometimes gets a thirty minute on lead walk in the evenings too.

basildonbond Fri 28-Feb-14 07:36:58

Goodness that's a lot!! Is there not the same kind of worry about joint problems with collies as there is with retrievers? We were told very little exercise for the first six months then gradually build it up over the next six months and then from a year onwards he should be able to cope with however much exercise we can throw at him (building up gradually of course - I don't intend to do a full day's hill-walking on his first birthday!)

We have a springer, who is 16 months. He was getting about 45mins to an hour am, then about an hour in the afternoon, off lead by 6 months, if I remember correctly. Obviously, we built up to this, but it came very quickly.

I 'think' the longer legged breeds have to be more careful in the early months and those with known hip issues (Labs etc), but a BC is about medium sized?

Training and toys that they have to think about such as the Kong range prove useful in our house, plus treats wrapped up in boxes etc.

I like a quiet route too quite regularly. I enjoy walking with friends too, but it's harder to concnetrate on what the dog is doing smile

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 08:08:18

I've been told by my vet ,and I think that Lonecat confirmed it on here that the limited walk idea has been disproved or at least not proved for dogs like Border Collies.
Finn is a nightmare if not walked for at least 2+ hours and have never managed to tire him out since he was six months old. I read somewhere that a working BC covers up to 75 miles a day. shock

Wow you BC mums walk loads! You must be super for yourselves!

I have an old English sheepdog who has one walk a day of an hour (20 mins on lead, 40 off) and that's it except he has free run of medium sized garden and some days will sit, some days will tear around!

Each school day we take same route to school for the 20 min on lead bit followed by 40 mins through a wood but there are 3 paths which interconnect at several points so our route varies depending on whether I'm trying to dodge other dogs I can see ahead of us or one path is bridle way with horses so I take that one on days when my treats are top level for horse practice!

Weekends we are loving exploring different woods, rarely same place twice but they usually involve the car as downside.

I'm hoping to age more slowly through these daily walks - not 'age' from a maintaining-beauty point of view as I can't say I particularly had a ticket for that show! But 'age' from a mobility/joints active point of view!

Super fit!

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 08:27:14

DH and I do share the walks! I am definitely not super fit although I think it's helping.

I don't think it's been disproved as such, more that vets are trying to highlight the fact that obesity in dogs (and cats) is a far more serious issue, putting far more strain on joints, than over exercising when young.

I will find the link, give me a sec!

I doing the vast majority of the walking. I have a long term back issue but used to run competitively, right up to the marathon distance (6 times), so used to cover 50 plus miles a week. Walking for 2.5 hours a day has made me feel almost as fit as I did before, well, in a slightly different way to running, but definitely in a positive way.

basildonbond Fri 28-Feb-14 09:44:51

I have a Very Sad puppy sad

He slept ok but keeps trying to get at the wound so the CoS is staying on - we have a comfier version arriving today which I hope will make him feel a bit better

He's had painkillers, has eaten and drunk (turned up his nose at kibble but managed to force himself to eat a little chicken) has wee'd and poo'd so I think he's fundamentally ok but he's just lying at my feet very quietly sobbing - I feel terrible

Ahh bless him. Poor chap. Hopefully it'll only be short recovery and he'll perk up later. You are good doing him chicken! That on offer for little nibbles and you around are all he needs for this stage.

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 09:54:01

As I understand it, forced on-lead walking, where the dog can't stop, start, meander and choose the pace is generally a bad idea.

Also, too much free running with other dogs and repeatedly ball/frisbee chasing, where the dog get's hyped up and stops listening to it's own body telling it to slow down and rest, are similarly bad.

Obesity is now being considered to be one of the major factors in elbow/hip problems, but it still holds true that repeated or excessive pounding on young joints is also a bad idea, particularly in larger/taller/heavier breeds, especially as in pet homes it's usually confined to short, frenetic periods as opposed to dogs that have been developing fitness from birth - as in the study cited on that thread.

Working dogs and those that remain with the breeder tend to have lots of free-play opportunities in paddocks and runs. As this is the norm - compared to shorter, defined, walks in pet homes, the pups don't get hyper and charge around like lunatics, but do romp and play, steadily building muscle and fitness, which supports the joints and encourages healthy symmetrical skeletal development.

That's how I understand it anyway.

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 09:58:38

Ah, poor Fitz.

Hopefully he'll gradually start to feel better, but if you feel he's in any pain, call your vets and ask for some pain relief for him. Iirc, most vets give a pain killer injection that lasts roughly 24 hours, but some dogs need a bit more than others. Vets are aware of this and are usually happy to supply you with a couple of days worth of pills if the dog is really not happy.

It could still just be the after effects of the anaesthesia though. Some of my dogs have done better than others after GA and the ones that didn't tended to keen a bit for the first day, I assume because they were feeling that horrible woozy, weird feeling you get when you're head's not right on medication.

Basildon, when ours was done he cried all evening on op day. He woke up miserable the next day and I gave him a dose of metacam as advised by the vets. That knocked him out and when he woke up that afternoon he was back to himself. So fingers crossed for you and him for later.

Walk length wise, Mario is a small breed (Border Terrier around 8kg), 19 months old so fully grown and has between 1 and 2 hours a day. Off or on lead depends on how appropriate the environment is for his excitement led dodgy recall.

Weekends and days out can be longer though.

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 10:47:07

We certainly don't force him to walk and he doesn't have a huge amount of play with other dogs, just brief plays as we pass if the other dog wants to. I do notice he doesn't do tearing round when out like he does at home if he hasn't been walked. It's more of fast trot with bursts of cantering rather than galloping. BC's seem quite good at pacing themselves perhaps also because he comes from a working line.
He's a marathon runner rather than a sprinter I think! He rarely goes at top speed.

Basildon, he will forget it soon. A dab of honey to lick off paws is a great cheer up in this house.

Mint, Meg is on the way to you sorting the socks.

NCIS I worry about walking Meg too much too- she doesn't get quite as much as Finn, but pretty near. We have been told no jumping much while you can still see their knee joints. She can manage on an hour and a half a day with games, hide and seek, training etc indoors.

Meg is doing 2 nights in kennels this weekend. I wish she didn't have to but she does. They seem lovely, clean and warm and lots of playtime plus a machine that blows bacon flavoured bubbles but I still feel wicked.

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 13:32:27

We acquired a lost dog today (see my thread about ID tags) and they played constantly. Lost dog is being collected later today and is lying down happily ripping his way through some toys.
Was rather looking forward to being a two dog household if he didn't have a chip but pleased for the owner/dog. I would have been frantic.

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 14:21:29

Am a bit surprised, the lost dog has been collected now, we've had him for three hours and the owner hasn't even called us. He sent a friend over to collect him, apparently he escaped from the garden when he was let out first thing this morning so has been missing at least seven hours!
I would have at least called to say thanks for looking after him even if I had to send someone else to collect him for whatever reason.

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 14:52:24

Blimey NCIS, when Oldgirl got out (through a fence that blew down overnight and out through next-door's poorly fenced garden into the park) she had no collar on as she'd just had an op on her neck - typical. hmm

The people that found her actually caught her right behind our house in the park, but because no collar, took her home and called the dog-warden. We called ten minutes later when we realised the fence was down and she wasn't in the garden and they got the rescuers to call us (rather than give out their number). Dh took a bunch of flowers when he went round to pick her up (left our house immediately after they called) and I sent a box of muffins and cookies round for the family to share the next day.

They had fallen in love with her and already decided they were going to keep her if they couldn't find her owner! grin She was busy playing ball in the garden with their dcs when dh arrived and didn't seem to be in a particular hurry to come home! shock

Well done for reuniting them, but it's probably not the first time and almost definitely won't be the last the dog escapes with owners that have that attitude.

Barbarian, we're about to start getting Pip used to kennels. I think it's important, especially if you don't have anyone that can dogsit at short notice. When ds2 was rushed into hospital with near fatal pneumonia when he was 4, all three of our dogs went into kennels and stayed there for a few weeks. There was no way we could have taken care of them properly ourselves as we were living at the hospital and juggling looking after ds1 and getting him to and from school with my Mum. I think you do need to get them used to some sort of dog-care situation for emergencies. She'll proabably have a blast - especially with those bacon bubbles. smile

basildonbond Fri 28-Feb-14 15:04:53

Well ... The comfy collar lasted all of ten minutes before he managed to puncture it grrrrrr. So it's back to the cone again

I tried leaving it off for a bit but he went straight back to licking the wound site

Glad you reunited the lost dog NCIS but I'm v surprised by the owner's attitude

And just wow at bacon-flavoured bubbles grin

Meg left tearing round a paddock with 6 other dogs. Not a glance as we wiped the tears and staggered away. It's just like when dd started school and didn't bother to say goodbye.

Moose, it must be lovely to find your dogs!

NCIS, how rude (unless they were teachers- DH is a teacher and does not communicate with the outside world between 8am and 4.30pm).

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 17:34:43

No apparently the owner was at home. I get he might not have access to a car but a phone call to say thanks wouldn't go amiss. And the dog, lovely though he was, methodically destroyed most of Finns toys. I know I could have taken them off him but I felt sorry for him. Retail therapy at the pet shop tomorrow!
I know, like Moose, I would be upset but also really grateful if someone had taken the trouble to make sure my dog was safe and cared for and would want to say thank you.
Glad Meg was happy to be left, our old Springer used to trot into kennels without a backward glance. We don't need to worry at the moment as my sister will always have Finn as we have her two.

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 17:52:10

Barbarian, that's what my lot have always done when we've taken them to kennels - drag us down the slope to the kennel block, then disappear off with the kennel hands without so much as a glance over their shoulders. hmm grin

I cannot tell you the relief when you find out someone has your missing dog. It happened to us with Oldgirl twice - both times when nextdoor's shonky fencing fell down overnight. The first time the little madam took herself over the fields and then down to a dog show at the local riding club! shock A lovely couple grabbed her and called the warden. They described my 8 year old Belgian x Border Collie as a Border Collie puppy and when I rang the warden they were closed, but the lovely security guard who was on duty put two and two together when I described her to him and put us in touch with the people, who kept hold of her while dh ran up there to fetch her. Again madam was having a ball playing with her rescuers dogs and being fed lots of treats, so wasn't too fussed about coming home. hmm We sent a bouquet of flowers and a card that time.

It's extra stressful for us because we lost our first Lurcher when she escaped from my Mum's garden while she was dog sitting. She was missing for 48 hours and then hit by a car and killed instantly - right outside a veterinary surgery. sad

basildonbond Fri 28-Feb-14 18:22:09

Meg will be absolutely fine - I was really worried that Fitz would be ok with the dogwalker bit I've been there a couple of times when he's been collected and Fitz is all wiggly and giggly and trots off without a second glance

He conked out for a bit this afternoon in his crate (took himself there so must have been feeling shattered) but since he woke up has been a bit manic, chasing around everywhere, jumping on and off the sofa - I had to put him back in his crate just to calm down - I think he's feeling a bit better...

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 19:19:09

Good to hear he's feeling better basil. Sounds like you'll be having the same problem as I did - trying to stop him popping his stitches through being manic. Daft dog! grin

BB - that's good to hear. You know they're well when they return to the loony charging around act but bit different when you know they've got stitches.

NCIS - I think that's odd too. I'd be straight on the phone to offer thanks and also find out what my dog had been doing - making sure no damage had been done which I'd want to replace etc.

Talking of kennels - what are people paying for decent kennels? I've been recommended a place to look at and the website is fabulous but £19.50 a night plus few pounds extra if you want 'add ons' like daily brush, extra long walk, doggie taxi service to collect/drop off. I've just added it up in my head for a 4 day stay and it's a bit eye watering! But maybe that's what the going rate is and I just need to accept that.

Mint, we are paying £20 a day (one night=two days I am sorry to say).
Looked at some £13.50 a day ones- awful metal cells- very noisy and cold.

Have no choice but to use them from time to time.

No choice but to use kennels, I mean, not the horrible ones. DH actually booked and took Meg into them for one night, and then sprang her after 15 minutes because he was so worried.

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 21:39:14

I think we pay £15.00 for one night, but we've been going there for over 20 years and I think we may get special rates. It includes a daily brush/groom, but you have to pay extra if you want them bathed before they come home. They provide the food as well, a choice of good quality kibbles or raw. The kennel block is heated and each run has a heat lamp that can be put on in cold weather as well.

Well I'd rather pay the £20 and feel happy with it than save a small amount and be worried the whole time.

And I know this whole 'dog being happy' thing is slightly unknown as they can't tell you when they get home, but bouncing away full of beans is a massive positive sign.

We used a particular kennel a few times when I was a teenager. I always went on the drop off and was heartbroken that our dog had to be literally dragged away. It was awful and I cried all the way home because I was so worried about him and he was obviously so unhappy. Now as a new dog owner 30yrs later I've checked out this place and local dog owners do NOT recommend it - infact they all say to avoid.

So a good place where your dog is happy to be left is well worth it.

Yes, me too Mint. Where Meg is now there is a webcam so you can see them when they are indoors but have been warned they will be mostly out or in the playbarn if the weather is awful.

(emailed you)

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 21:50:23

We looked at a kennel more local to us as it's a 45 minute drive to the one we use and were horrified.

It stank, the staff were really young and clearly didn't have a clue what they were doing and during the day they let all the dogs, of every size/breed/gender out into a central area where they were left unsupervised.

They told us they walk the dogs in secure fields, but as we left there was a 16 year old girl being dragged down the road by about 8 large dogs. I asked why and was told they walk them up the road (no pavement) over the motorway bridge and down a lane into a local field. shock

Unsurprisingly they only allowed 'visitors' for one specific hour a day, presumably so they could present the best possible image. Dread to think what it was like when they weren't making an effort! Our current kennels is happy for people to drop in anytime - because they have nothing to hide.

Thanks Barbarian - just seen your Meg loading washing machine! Fabulous and wonderful that a jumpy boisterous dog can be trained that well. It gives me hope. Did it take you long to train the lie flat for your BIL name? How did you get that sideways lie in the first place? We can get a 'flat' but it's a flat from sit and he won't stay in that position so it's a quick in flat, treat, stay, treat then he's bouncing up again! Your lie down looked like a relaxed stay-lie.

Oh yes Moose I had this with DS1s nursery too - one we looked at had a viewing hour another was open doors (though of course you needed to phone in advance to arrange). Really telling though. The kennels we are looking at is open all day for viewing and we will view and do some settling first.

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 22:12:18

I don't expect them to replace anything and wouldn't have told them he destroyed anything and tbh I looked after him because I would want someone to do that for mine, but I wouldn't be human if I didn't appreciate a thank you. It's a bit like picking someones purse up, when an M&S employee did that for me a while ago I made sure I bought them flowers but for me, a thank you for caring about my dog would have done.
I would still do it again though, even if it was the same dog.

Mint we did it in three stages at first, sit, lie down, 'name'. Coaxed in 'name' position with cheese (following nose!).
At same time (but at different times of day) we taught 'stay'.
At first (for a day or two- it was really quick to teach this stage)- she was only in 'name' for a second at most.
When she knew where she was meant to be we added 'Stay'.
It was really quick- a week or two at most to get her to do it, but to do it reliably and relax took maybe a month. We tried to keep it really calm- quiet voice, quiet stroking, stopped when she got bouncy. We did it every day, maybe 2 or 3 times a day, but only for a few minutes a time. We were really keen to get it right.
(Did it first alone, then in room with other people, then outside. Managed outside-with-another dog the other day.)

Some people teach 'settle' which I suppose it very similar. But it made BIL laugh very much to do it to his name (he says he wants a dog now).
Good luck!

basildonbond Fri 28-Feb-14 22:25:52

Eek I'm paying £30 per night for Fitz to go to the Dogwalker when we're away at Easter, but on the plus side he'll be with someone he knows well, he's in a home environment and will be going for fab walks every day with his doggy mates

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 22:28:20

If anyone's on the surrey/hampshire borders and is looking for someone to walk with I'd be happy to link up. We're quite nice honestly.grin

I'm a bit far myself in South Yorkshire! But good idea....

NCISaddict Fri 28-Feb-14 22:48:06

Perhaps we should have a doggie dating thread but without any sex, we don't want that sort of malarkey, just a nice walk with like minded doggie owners. smile

moosemama Fri 28-Feb-14 23:01:29

Basil I would pay more for a home/pet sitter. The one I looked at locally is £45 a night.

No-one ever lives near me. I knew so few people when I lived in Lancs, but since moving down here all the people I've wanted to meet that I've met on MN or Lurcher Link have been in Lancs or Yorkshire. hmm People always seem to be up North or down South and I'm smack bang in the middle. hmm

I'm in S Yorks too mint smile

But don't worry if you ever see me in the distance I shall probably be rugby tackling the 100 mile on hour dog to stop him hurtling at you!

Actually he was really good in the woods today. I managed to recall him from a badger sett he'd stuck his head in shock no mean feat for a terrier! And I managed to keep him from racing off to anyone for long enough to clip on lead which was good as the usually quiet woods were pretty busy for mid week. smile

But if you ever happen to be in the wood when a boy emerges and suddenly starts shrieking ' Muuuum there's people......and they have a doooog!' in an alarmed fashion and then just when you are at high alert for what rabid dog they are so concerned about a little BT appears, it is us grin My lead ninja routine to stop ddog racing in paws first has put ds on hyper alert!

basildonbond Sat 01-Mar-14 07:56:09

Hi mint

Fitz's down isn't as impressive as Meg's sounds but we've gradually built up the time he'll stay down so now I can pootle about around him and even leave the room and he'll stay on his bed (or just down, depending on whether I've told him 'down' or 'go to your bed'). I just very slowly increased the amount of time until I treated him and now just randomly chuck him a treat to keep him down

basildonbond Sat 01-Mar-14 08:00:16

oh and the other thing we did which helped with his downs was to make them really fun - we did quick downs, starting by teaching him to target a piece of paper with his feet and once he was doing that adding the command down and keeping the energy levels really high, so moving the target around and being really excited. He'll now flop down from standing in an instant whereas before we had to get him to sit then lie

(wasn't my idea btw, got it from puppy class!)

Another Yorkshire lass here, but West/North border for us.

Barbarian - Meg sounds fabulous, really clever girl. I might use the settle command and teach it to my two, there are pretty chilled but another skill is useful, especially when we have non dog loving visitors.

We are spoilt, Harry goes back to the breeder for £10 per night, she's going to have Hector too. She has Harry's grandma, mum and sister so he comes back much loved but slightly manic too smile

Had an early morning potter with my two and it's gloriously sunny. Everything is very low key at the minute, so as to not tire our Hector or damage Harry's paw, so no toys or scent work, but it felt spring like and lovely.

Going to plan my study time also this weekend, Pony Club has started up again so my weekends get busier.

Fan - we have one of those alert systems in our family too! DS2 who is 8 keeps watch on walks and if he sees people with a dog will try and work out if it's on a lead or not as he knows I clip our lead on straight away if the other dog is but he takes this rule SO seriously and leads can be hard to spot from a distance! No chance of maintaining a conversation as the 'is he, isn't he' lead issue dominates!

I've also had to be really strict with DS2 about not yelling 'there's a horse, quick it's a horse, mummy - HORSE" as by that stage the horse was upon us and minty was well hyped up and difficult to control! So he now whispers 'hooorse' in my ear!

I am afraid rule is enforced all the time due to the 100 mile an hour dogs untrustworthyness with his paws blush He jumps up at people if he is excited do he is only allowed off lead if I am with people who undersstand he is a work in progress and are willing to take the risk.

I have got a regular group I meet in the local country park who meet most weekday mornings. There often ends up with anything from 4 to a dozen plus dogs romping around and they are assisting me with that! The problem I have is that I have 2 different dogs I think. The one that lives at home loves a good play and clicker training and is all round super chilled if not invited to play. He really is the perfect dog...doesn't steal, chew, jump up or bark.

But out of the house the 100 mile an hour dog appears, high on life and determined to fly by the seat of his pants! He generally does walk lovely on his lead 95% of the time but every now and then can't resist trying to get to other dogs but most of the time we can pass without fuss. He recalls brilliantly without distractions. But he is an utter attention tart blush there is just no other way to describe it! He loves everyone and just assumes everyone wants to say hello. Obviously I do not indulge this and allow him to run wild but it takes some careful management.

I am often nodded at sagely by other BT owners who asssure me they settle eventually. We did puppy classes but they were a waste for us really as he was hyped up beyond sense by other dogs then. Regular socialising has improved that. The local group that does KC scheme has no venue until May due to renovations but hoping to go then. I think he is ready to listen whilst in the company of others now.

He is easier to recall away than he every was but not 100 % and therefore I cannot trust him yet around others.

Training not to jump is taking time too as he just doesn't do it at home! He knows how to do a doen but still to excitable to respond to that when faced with someone to say hello to.

moosemama Sat 01-Mar-14 12:49:13

Basil, I love that method of teaching an instant down - great fun for the dog. Might have a go at that with Pip.

Fan the BT at our puppy classes was full on 100 mph too. She was absolutely tiny and gorgeous, but I have scars on both arms where she sank her teeth in and wouldn't let go when we were doing the vet-handling part of the certificate. The owners love her to bits, but said she was exhausting! grin

They dropped out after the basic puppy class, probably because it was just too high stimulus for them to try and train with a group of other dogs all moving around her.

Dogs are having to take a back seat today, as we have back to back children's clubs and birthday parties. hmm I hate days like today and dh has manflu a cold and is in the foulest of moods, just to add to my joy.

To be fair we were told to keep their walks short and make sure they get plenty of rest while they're getting over this resp infection, so two short leads it is for today.

Lurcherboy is like a different dog already. He's seen plenty of dogs since he started his meds and not had one reaction, so it seems that was our answer to his strange behaviour. <<phew!>>

I think you need to be a certain kind of person for BT's moose (I think if they were human they'd be hard working manual labour types, party hard and tend towards anti establishment but be great fun to be with as long as they didn't get you arrested whilst dragging you on a crazy scheme grin) They are full on for a tiny dog that looks like a teddy bear but loving and rewarding too.

Puppy wise we were the asbo kids of the puppy class. There were 2 cockers who gave him a run for his money but the rest (dogs and owners watched us in stunned silence) He was 3 kg and actually had a lab pup climb into a holdall to get away from his border boxing blush He was constantly in timeout at puppy play breaks. He bit and nipped shockingly as a pup too but is utterly gentle now, even when been fed his favourite treats or when we play rough. He knows the boundries and is 100% reliable. Even vets surgery said his personality is so gentle they really had no worries at all whatever they need to do....which is great as he scared me to death having his 2nd puppy vax snarling aways. I think they are born a little feisty before they chill smile I joke that is is Napoleon syndrome when they are super tiny as they really do think they are a big dog!

Glad to hear Lucher boy is settling too after being poorly smile

Moose and Basil would really like to know how you teach 'down' like that with the paper, if either of you have time.

moosemama Sat 01-Mar-14 14:02:55

Blimey Fan, you make BTs sound like most of our friends! grin

Barbarian, I'm going to let Basil tell you ... and then I can copy her! grin

grin ahh then you need a BT in your life at some point moose!

basildonbond Sat 01-Mar-14 14:30:33

Hi barbarian - we started by getting him to target the paper with his front feet - we used a paper plate to start with as it was a bit sturdier then moved onto a post-it note

We encouraged him to be interested in it and as soon as he touched it with his feet clicked and treated

when he realised what we wanted him to do we added the cue word 'feet'

Then we started moving it around and getting him to touch it as soon as it stopped

Then we added a down so 'feet, down'

Still moving it around and keeping the energy levels really high, then phasing out the feet but keeping the down really exciting

The targeting can be used for all kinds of things later - the trainer's collie does a very impressive jump and push off from the wall which started off with him targeting

moosemama Sat 01-Mar-14 14:30:53

Funnily enough, we always said we'd get a BT when we were left with just Lurcherboy, but when the time came I just knew we had to get another Lurcher.

I'm a great believer in fate and knew Pip was my boy from the second I saw a photo of him at just a few weeks old on his rescue's website. He looked such an odd little fella - dh said he wasn't drawn to him because he had an odd face - but I knew.

It wasn't easy, we were going away on holiday right when he was old enough to leave his fosterers and we were turned down as a result. But, fate intervened and someone I know on a Lurcher rescue site, knew his fosterers, knew I was looking for a pup and asked if I'd seen him. I explained I'd applied and been turned down and she was really cross that they'd turned down an experienced dog and in particular Lurcher home. She told the fosterers all about me and they in turn went into battle with the rescue society and told them they wanted me to have him.

The rescue still wouldn't commit, but said we could go and meet him on our way to our holiday home, as we were driving practically past the fosterer's house anyway, but this didn't mean we would be able to adopt him, as they have a blanket policy of not allowing people to reserve dogs while they go on holiday and if someone else turned up in the two weeks we were away they would get preference.

We went to visit him on the way out and it was love at first sight. He was so frail and sweet. I felt sick thinking someone else might adopt him while we were away, but as we left the fosterer said "He's yours, no questions asked. We'll see you in two weeks when you come to take him home." grin She then text me while I was on the ferry to tell me she'd spoken to the rescue society and they had finally agreed to formally reserve him for us. I have never wanted a holiday to end more quickly in my life! grin

A BT is still high on our list of must have breeds. A friend at the dcs' school has three that do agility and are absolute sweeties. smile

moosemama Sat 01-Mar-14 14:32:11

I haven't taught Pip to target with his feet yet, but he does a really good target with his nose, which is so useful when you want to lead him somewhere or guide him through a narrow gap etc.

I think we have said before that they are natural bed fellows to be honest. Dh wanted a grey or lurcher but ds's dog allergy put paid to that as he reacted.

I know a few round here with a small pack of lurchers with a terrier tagged on!

moosemama Sat 01-Mar-14 14:57:30

Yes we have. I could really see Lurcherboy with a little BT best buddy - but the timing was off, Pip needed me.

The Lurcher, Terrier combo is very common, they compliment each other's hunting skills, so lots of people that 'work' their dogs have both.

Interesting training talk today, we have the boys 'touching' my hand, and Harry will paw his ball, but I need to up the game. Getting Hector has meant I am only really reinforcing the basic commands with Harry, as it's hard to train both together.

I think that I am a spaniel person through and through, although I hanker after a pointer breed, as I think they are so graceful when running. DH thinks they are too big though, and I do see his point. The traits of the spaniel just suit us well.

That said, whether I would always want a full on dog is debatable, I can cope with a retired greyhound in my dotage too.

Rare peace in the house, DH is out with the dogs smile

That's a lovely story Moose - lucky Pip and lucky you all!

BB that's fab - clicker training is fantastic, I must try that.

I have steam coming out my ears - mind if I rant? DH just walked minty in the woods and came back saying he's really badly behaved shouldn't be off lead and has no discipline. Turned out they saw our babysitter on bike, said hello and then minty gave chase (without babysitter realising) through a stream and over a road. DH called but 100yds behind and minty zoomed across the road himself.

I can't believe minty gets the blame. Of course he's going to run after babysitter whom he adores especially on a bike. I'd have clipped lead on for the hello and pottered along till bike wel out of sight.

As I say I'm steaming. I think DH just doesn't get the difference between a pup now teenager and his last dog which was an elderly GSD who would politely dawdle to work with him each day then sleep at his feet all day. Well perhaps minty will be like that at 10yrs plus but right now he needs us to mind him properly. Someone could have been killed - I know the road and all traffic is at 30 plus with poor visibility. Rant over - I'm off to tidy a sock drawer!

Oh dear mint, did you say anything to DH? My DH can bit a bit old fashioned at time, thinks 'a stern no' should be understood, and less inclined the embrace the new training methods like clicker training etc. Hope the sock drawer is theraputic, I generally pair socks from the ironing pile smile

I start agility with Harry next week, I am quite excited!

moosemama Sat 01-Mar-14 16:40:46

wine Mint - bit early, but sounds like you need it. Glad Minty was OK and came back in the end, but it sounds like your dh needs to recognise that it can't just be you doing the training if he wants Minty to respond to him as well.

I've spent the last hour whiling away the time waiting for the party dd was at to end looking at property porn. blush I've found a fantastic house, just up the road from us, 5 beds, enormous kitchen, two gigantic sitting rooms plus an orangery type room that's in a suntrap, 2.5 acre gardens with massive lawns plus loads of beautiful mature trees and access directly onto open countryside walks, plus a 2 bedroom cottage set back from the house that would be the perfect solution to where ds1 is going to live when he's older. All I need to do now is win the lottery (preferably Euromillions) as its £1,950,000 ... and it needs renovating! hmm grin

Love the property porn Moose, great way of spending a few spare moments!

DH was aware of my views about minty running off and I had a great stomp through eldest sons entire wardrobe - first time been cleared out in about 2 yrs! I came down to DH saying he realised it was his fault. Think he was a bit shocked and defensive when he'd first got home. Thankfully it was a lesson learnt without any damage.

Our change in food is going well - no problems after day 2 so going to increase the proportion of the new - been 75%old 25% new so gradually will swap that. Minty needs to put on weight as he's underweight according to trainer - hard to get it right though.

Glad to hear Minty came to no harm despite the ordeal. I'm with you, any distraction at all and I try to set him up for success!

With regard to him being underweight, how old is he now? I only ask because even people who should know sometimes forget that pups aren't like adults in terms of build. I have worried myself to distraction at times as was faced with a skinny pup with a really dicky tummy who can go days quite happily walking away from all offerings. This is how I ended up raw feeding...an I'll try anything moment! It did crack the dicky tummy! But a year on it is only now at 19 months that he is finally starting to fill out and I think it is just an age thing. I think he will always be lean but tbh I think that is better. It could just be his age yet.

I don't get the food / underweight think Fan.

We were feeding the correct amount of Science Plan Puppy according to his weight. So we weighed each week and increased till he was on 550g a day - quite a big plastic tub worth.

But he is ribby and lean but checked with vet who said he had good muscle tone, daily walks were fine and she said food was fine so it was just a matter of time. But then I looked at Ingred of Science Plan, listened to people on here and decided it was better to go for good quality kibble and he'll either put on weight or I'll at least feel happy that washe is eating is good stuff.

Where does the phrase puppy-fat comes from if puppies aren't a bit chunky? I've never had a puppy before but had a whippet/collie x in past who was beautifully lean so I think you're right dogs are meant to be lean.

Our whippet/collie x did that thing of leaving food for a day but he seemed happy - like he was imposing a 5:2 fast diet on himself!

I'm off for a Christmas-present spa day with my SIL today so have cooked 4 sausages for DHs walk with minty today. I noticed after yesterday's disaster that the sausage treat bag that I'd given DH was barely touched in walk. No wonder minty didn't bother listening to him. So no chances today - loads more sausage than I usually take and DH knows to use it frequently!

Out of interest how many treats/sausages/ cheese chunks do people take on off lead walks with their dogs? I have been used to cooking 1 sausage each morning and cutting up & mixing with bits of biscuit so I have a bag that is a fist sized and we get through whole thing over 40 mins off lead.

Do others use more? More variety?

NCISaddict Sun 02-Mar-14 09:22:45

I don't use much as Finn isn't food orientated on walks but I do have a few dried sprats in my pocket. He might deign to nibble at one if not distracted but otherwise its lots of excited sounding praise, I sound like a demented loon most walks.

I have to be careful as raw seems to be the only thing that doesn't give the runs and I draw the line at a pocket full of raw meat! I use cheap and nasty gravy bones as they seem to be as addictive as narcotics to the 100 mile an hour dog...more than cheese or chicken. Maybe get through half a dozen broken into pieces. More would be better but I have to balance it with not making him ill. A couple of pieces of sausage is enough for alot of mess here!

NCISaddict Sun 02-Mar-14 10:15:12

Dried liver? I also buy the beef jerky from Natural instincts which Finn does like but even that doesn't get his attention on a walk weird beast!

I have got some dried liver and he'll eat it but not go nuts for it. Also, his raw has offal ratios in already so again, a little is okay but I wouldn't want to give too much.

I have gut problems...cannot believe we have managed to find a dog just like me grin

basildonbond Sun 02-Mar-14 10:46:36

Like Finn, Fitz is not particularly food-oriented on walks as there are too many other Really Exciting things happening and hot dog can't compete! He will do anything for a squeaky ball though so I always make sure I have a couple hidden away somewhere

For training at home and puppy class we use a mixture of chicken, ham, cheese, primula, hot dog etc

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 14:09:33

Mint, little pups - so from newborn to 8-12 weeks tend to be little pudges, then they lean out as they grow. When their testosterone kicks in they tend to go skinny and gangly, a bit like spotty great human teenagers really.

In my experience they tend to fill out a little, then suddenly drop weight and go skinny as they have a growth spurt. Then as they start to develop an adult shape and size their muscles build and they loose the half-starved look.

Dogs are meant to be lean, you should be able to clearly see their waist from above and their ribcage should have a lean covering. The vast majority of dogs these days are overweight and it's what's been implicated in all sorts of health problems from hip and elbow dysplasia to diabetes and some cancers.

The guide for a healthy Lurcher is that you should be able to see the last three ribcages. Pip is extremely thin, but fits that description. Lurcherboy has put on too much weight recently (2kg! shock) mainly due to less off-lead exercise while dh was walking him and is now on a diet as a result.

Your Whippet x Collie was a Lurcher! grin Lurcher = any sighthound x any working breed or terrier. smile

Re treats, I have 2 x fist sized bags with me, for two dogs, plus a couple of catfood trays in case I want to jackpot recalls. I usually get through one bag on an average walk, maybe with just a few bits left - but - if it's a busy walk with lots of other dogs, I can get through two whilst shoving treats down Pip's neck for counter-conditioning purposes.

I use, fresh cooked chicken, chorizo, cheese, primula, fish4dogs stars, kibble and catfood trays. I've just bought some chorizo cocktail sausages and for some reason my two go nuts over those, far more than proper chorizo. The best puppy-crack training treat I've ever used was Morrison's turkey sausages. They were really greasy and smelly and worked like a charm, but they don't seem to sell them down here.

Not all dogs are food orientated though and for those dogs I'd get them hooked on 3 A, B, C graded toy rewards that they only get as a reward for training/good responses.

Lurcherboy is food oriented, but tennis balls trump everything else on the planet, so I can use both with him. For Oldgirl, who was a total glutton, her frisbee still overrode food when out on walks.

What do I do moose...mine isn't motivated by food or toys for distractions from dogs or people. His favourite toy at home witheld and saved for this purpose held no value whatsoever in face of a playmate sad

I really do need a puppy in my pocket don't I? grin Gravy bones will cut the mustard when on lead but debatable off...he weighs it up!

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 14:58:05

You probably need to work A LOT on getting and keeping his attention at home, making the game with his favourite toy mega exciting as reward. Then you'd need to, extremely gradually, increase the distraction level. So first of all perhaps just someone else in the room, then the other person being busy, then doing something he really likes to be involved with etc, building up the distraction incrementally.

To do it well you'd need reach a point where you start to involve friends with stooge dogs and get them working with you inside at home, then in the garden and go from there.

Ultimately he needs to have it so ingrained in his head that when you give him his attention or recall cue, what you have on offer is worth leaving the other people/dogs alone for.

Ideally you should have more than one favourite toy. His absolute best should be reserved for 'ultimate reward' (A grade) then there should be one a step down from it (B grade) and another that's rewarding but not as desirable as the other two (C grade).

It's a very long, slow process to do it right.

I do understand what a massive undertaking it is with a high energy, highly sociable dog and whilst it can be done, I'm not saying I would be up to doing it, just because I know how to do some of this stuff, doesn't mean I have the stamina to actually see it through myself. blush

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 15:17:30

I'm thinking I have no choice but to buy Pip one of these. grin

It just scares me as there is no game he likes more than being a hyped up maniac and that is not helpful! He is like a tiny boy child, capable of focus for the teeniest amount of time but preferred mode of fun is careering around with puppy zoomies or romping and wrestling with 2 or 4 legged companions. And yes...I have hit the deck shrieking legs in the air to get his attention but again, he can be a tough crowd! Ball is fantastic fun...at home only. Completely ignores it outside. Even on his own. Same with tuggie, best thing ever at home...no interest at all even on our own when out.

Damn terriers and their independant personalities. You know how you see spaniel and collie owners with a high energy dog twitching but utterly focussed on them? I can behave like that owner on speed, pockets overflowing with treats and squeakies, leaping around, animated and he just looks mildly amused at me with one eye over my shoulder to see what the next adventure is.

He is great at learning daft clicker tricks at home and picks things up so quickly but he is two different dogs.
We got so far through total recall book before he decided I was just a twitnd that was before

Post went wrong there! He just decided I was a twit with a whistle and not worth getting up for. It was as soon as you had to drop high value treats (hot chicken!) I did it letter for letter too sad. Too self aware for his own good!

Oh pip NEEDS that! grin

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 15:34:20

I can imagine what he's like fan and totally get that it's a massive uphill struggle. Some of it will be immaturity, Oldgirl was a nightmare for the first couple of years, she had zero recall and pulled like a train, but did calm down eventually and ended up as a fantastic companion. I used to cringe out and about, because she looked exactly like those highly attentive, super motivated Border Collies, but behaved like a teenage hooligan. blush

Essentially, what you are trying to achieve is counter conditioning him into automatically reacting to your cue, as you have made it soooo exciting at home in the house, then garden etc. So he wouldn't stop and think - "Oh yeah, but Mum only has that toy - whereas those are OTHER DOGS Whoopee!" The response would be a conditioned one, where he comes back to you without thinking and for that most of the groundwork is done at home in the house, then garden, then you'd longline him while gradually building up his response outside. If he fails at any point you'd go back a few steps and really ramp up that stage before moving on again. Tiny footsteps.

It is a huge undertaking and it really depends how much of a problem he is to you out on walks as to whether you feel you want/need to do it.

With the Total Recall, if he didn't respond when you dropped the high value treats, he wasn't ready to move on. Each stage can take massively different lengths of time to move on from, depending on dog/breed/personality.

Have added the Moose to my wishlist and will get it when dh isn't looking! grin

grin you had to have it!

He is improving gradually so we will keep trying. blush to admit that if I am honest we have settled into a routine of management really. It just feels like such a mountain to climb from here it is hard to keep faith!

He is good onlead and when he gets excited by other dogs onlead I can get him to watch me and sit easily. It just offlead. I just get envious in my local park (5mins away but a spot that attracts alot of out of area visitorsso very busy when I see dogs having fun off lead. He is perfect in every other way and is so even tempered and fun I can forgive him. It just means I have to work hard to not let him be a nuisance to others because don't misunderstand me, I don't allow him to just have his 'fun' at anyone elses expense. We end up driving miles and micro managing off lead and meeting people we know for play.

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 17:13:38

I think most/many of us have challenges with our dogs that we choose management for, over incessant hours of repetitive training that takes months to make even a tiny improvement.

It's not like we've all got top notch working dogs that have to be immediate in every response. Ultimately, they're part of our families and lets' face it, there are things we could probably change about our dhs and dcs, given the right amount of time and effort - but sometimes life's just too short and you'd rather just enjoy them - warts and all and get on with your life, iyswim.

I didn't know that was the definition of a Lurcher Moose. We used to say he was our Heinz 57 dog - he had a collie head and a whippet body and was adorable but never off lead as he had no recall.

Minty was great today apparently and the treat bag was emptied so an improvement all round. I've noticed some really wild behaviour with one particular dog owned by a friend of mine so I've decided not to walk with them tomorrow so I can have a solo walk and sort of assess minty for myself.

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 19:52:43

Mint, "never off lead as he had no recall" - yup that'll be a Lurcher! grin

Glad Minty's walk went well today.

Did you have a good spa day?

Owllady Sun 02-Mar-14 20:36:09

We could never let our collie lurcher cross of either (she was a stray until 2yo) lined I always blamed myself for never getting recall right. She became a bit better as she got older..
Then she went deaf confusedblush
I have a collie too. I am just sick of people with the same age or older dogs telling m e what to do (she is 20 months)as they think I am not training her well enough, just because she is a normal collie (one and opinion)

Owllady Sun 02-Mar-14 20:37:30

I am sick of this kindle
Decifer my post if you can confused

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 20:40:50

It's not uncommon for some Lurchers to only ever get let off in secure, fenced fields. Plenty of Greyhound and Lurcher owners rent fields by the hour so their dogs can have off lead romps. Unfortunately there are none around where we live.

Owllady, I know what you mean, everyone seems to have an opinion on how you should/shouldn't be training your dog - even those that don't have and have never had dogs of their own. hmm

I have just developed 'the glaze' followed by smile and nod and they do exactly what I was going to do anyway - same with dcs, everyone else thinks they know best and that they have the right to tell you so. hmm

Owllady Sun 02-Mar-14 20:52:22

My neighbour is the worst, she keeps telling me I am making mistakes
And lectures me and she is very blunt
I m sure she doesn't mean it. She is eastern European and I think some of it is lost in translation but she really makes me feel shit
I have always had collies. This one, I have not trained like a race, we are having a meander I think. But I am letting her grow. The behavioural stuff is fine. She loves the house, garden, walk a, people, dogs. We have a bit of a herding issue but I know how to deal with it
And I just want to say to people, bugger off tbh blush

Oh Moose I so wish I'd known that 30 years ago! I tried really hard to have our dog be allowed some freedom and each time the lead came off, he ran chasing something or just running for fun. My mum had to drive round and search for him as he'd properly run off. When he got home, which he always did, I used to tell him off and be so cross with him. I feel so bad now, I loved him so much in that totally over the top teenage girl way! Bless him, he came to us at 2yrs and I was obviously out my depth in terms of training.

Owllady - by the sounds of it, not your lack of training but just nature of the dog.

Spa day lovely thanks. Super warm and I came home to boys steaming kitchen floor, dog tired & happy and tea cooked!

Really useful info on dog size thanks Moose.

Sounds like you have all had a great day Mint smile

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 21:36:46

Mint - he was loved and he knew it, that was the most important thing. Don't beat yourself up about it. Honestly some of the mistakes I made with my first dog would have your hair standing on end! blush

Glad you've had a lovely day and didn't come home to chaos. Dh has obviously earned some brownie points back! grin

Eek, just re-read my post about weight. Lose not loose. Ribs not ribcages. blush In my defence I am make far worse mistakes when I'm speaking. Poor dd keeps asking me why I said something - I swear emphatically that I didn't, until dh says "erm ... yes you did" and it's always something that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Good job I'm not an overtly social being, as I'd be getting a lot of funny looks in the playground while my neuro problems are flaring up! grin

It must be really tough having neuro problems so don't be silly about your post. It made perfect sense and little mistakes can just be explained away as typos! The information was useful and reassuring.

Do you feel up to walking yet Moose? Are you able to train from the sofa or train in the garden?

Yes, that dog was certainly loved! This one is too in a different way. I think I'll always have a dog in my life from now on, but I suspect the breed might change!

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 22:44:20

Not up to walking far, unfortunately, can only manage short trips to the dreaded local park. hmm Dh has been taking them out separately though, which is better for them both and means they both get some individual attention and a chance to run off-lead without turning into complete Lurcher loons. At least it's not dark when he gets home now, so they can have a decent walk with him.

Dh is away for two days this week though and am not quite sure how we're going to cope with that. I tend to overdo things at the start of the week and am useless by Wed/Thurs, then crawl through Friday and have to rest all weekend. I know how to pace myself, but there's always just too much to get done/

I am feeling a bit brighter in myself though, so am able to train and play with them from my perch and we've been doing lots of taping treats into various boxes etc. The garden is still a horrible quagmire, so I'm avoiding it apart from poo picking or gong farming as my dh calls it - we have Horrible Histories to thank for that little gem. hmm grin

haggisaggis Mon 03-Mar-14 16:49:14

It's really interesting reading how all your dogs are getting on with their training. We are a bit behind - Angus does a good recall at home but when there are other dogs he can be a bit reluctant. Does come after a bit but will run back to the other dog sometimes. He is HIGHLY food motivated though which is really good. Does a great walk to heel on lead and off gazing lovingly at me (sorry - that should read treatbag!) DH is the same as Mint's with training - wouldn't think of taking / using treats and thinks if he yells "COME" in an angry voice that Angus will come running..
You've got me panicking about boarding costs - Angus is booked in with our dog walker (who he knows well and loves him) for 3 weeks in June...I didn't even ask the price when I booked it. (mind you - we have no option. Dog walker loves him and he loves her and we wouldn't want him to go to kennels)

I don't get the 'gong farming' Moose - am I just slow or is it an in joke!?

I also avoid our garden for same reasons! Is it time to call in dog walkers for help this week Moose? Or just use a trial walk as a bit of a break for you while DH is away?

Hi Haggis, lovely to hear from you! I hope your DH doesn't need the sort of shock mine got this weekend to change his view of dog training - dog running free across a road is not good control. I really think DH is 'getting it' - he's come in from work and bent down to do a proper hello to minty, proper as in chatting & rubbing and giving really focused attention for several minutes at Mintys height so all paws stayed on ground. Wonderful! Usually he says quick hello then gets annoyed because minty leaps up to him for his cuddle and he's tall so minty seems to fly up off the ground trying to get close!!

Don't worry about the cost haggis - I'd pay a lot for someone to give that type of care!

basildonbond Mon 03-Mar-14 19:55:23

just got back from vet - he thinks that Fitz's immune system has been slightly suppressed by the anaesthetic and has let an infection which he was keeping under control pre-op get the upper hand

he's got a temp and very sore bottom (did not like having his temp taken at all sad) - he's on boiled chicken and rice plus pro-biotic paste for 3 days and the vet wants to see him again on Friday - if he's no better we'll send off a stool sample

vet thinks his eyes will clear up as soon as his gut gets better

on the plus side his wound is healing up really nicely

moosemama Mon 03-Mar-14 20:12:27

No Mint, Gong Farming is from Horrible Histories. Ds2 is obsessed with that programme. Apparently the people that used to go and pick up all the poo that was used for tanning leather were called Gong Farmers - hence dh using that term when he sallies forth to clean up the lawn. grin In the summer we go out and clean it up every time they go, but with the weather as it has been, we've tended not to, so dh has to go and pick it all up in one go, iyswim.

I just can't bring myself to book the dog-walkers. I can't let go of the worry about someone else handling them. blush I will just have to take them out myself and maybe sit on a bench, let them off one at a time and chuck a ball for them or something.

Glad your dh has taken his wake-up call seriously.

Hi haggis good to hear Angus is well. Recall sounds pretty normal for a pup to be honest. The world is just too exciting when they're this age.

Basil, poor Fitz. sad Hope the probiotics sort out his digestive problems and he's able to fight the infection off quickly.

basildonbond Tue 04-Mar-14 09:24:45

Glad I took him to the vet yesterday as poo now completely liquid - obv not right! I have to collect a stool sample but it's quite tricky when there's nothing solid to get hold of envy (not envy ...)

basildonbond Tue 04-Mar-14 09:30:49

Moose - if you really can't bear the idea of a Dogwalker then don't feel you 'have' to have one - however it might make a big difference to your life on a short-term basis and help your recovery

I felt awful about sending Fitz to daycare when my mum was so ill but knowing that he was safe and was very happy when I couldn't be there to look after him was invaluable

We're keeping daycare going one day a week so that he's completely familiar with the set-up when we go on holiday at Easter

moosemama Tue 04-Mar-14 10:09:15

Sorry to hear Fitz is worse this morning Basil. Poor lad. Hope the vets get to the bottom of it quickly.

Re dogwalking, the thing is, I think I should hire a dogwalker for the dogs' sake. They are getting walked, but nowhere near as much, particularly in terms of off-lead, as they're used to and I don't think that's fair on them. I keep living in hope this is going to be a short relapse and normal service will be resumed.

haggisaggis Tue 04-Mar-14 11:53:29

Poor Fitz - hope he feels better soon. Re daycare / dogwalking - although Angus was already going to daycare a couple of days a week so I could go to work, it was a lifeline when I broke my ankle as otherwise don't know how we would have coped - and he was used to going so was happy to up the days (she really is lovely and helped with a bit of training when I couldn't). It is a bit like sending dc to nursery though - you know they're happy but it's weird them doing stuff without you.
dh really doesn't get training I don't think - he greets Angus by encouraging him to jump up for a cuddle, fed him at the table now wonders why the dog's such a scrounge...he keeps saying that last dog wasn't like that - forgetting all the food that got stolen etc before last dog grew up.

Checking in. Although, nothing of any excitement to say!!.

Boys are fine, had a super walk in the woods and sunshine this afternoon. Hector is probably walking a bit too far but I just let him potter about by my feet as Harry flings himself with abandon all over the place.

So much easier when the sun shines smile

How's Fitz? Hope he's ok.

moosemama Tue 04-Mar-14 15:56:39

Same here needa. Have just had a moochy day. Steady stroll in the sunshine - very therapeutic. It makes such a difference when it's not all standing water and slimy mud and the sun on your face (or back on the way home grin) really lifts your spirits.

I do the same with Pip. He stays on lead with me while Lurcherboy charges about snuffling all the hedgerows and marking everything that has a vertical surface. On a good day I can get lots of counter conditioning in then, while other dogs are still a good distance away. All depends whether Lurcherboy is in the mood to wind Pip up by doing constant fly-bys when he knows Pip can't give chase. I'd swear he was laughing at him sometimes - he's going to get a big shock when Pip's fully grown! grin

basildonbond Tue 04-Mar-14 19:53:42

Fitz seems quite chirpy in himself, is still eating (boiled fish or chicken and rice) and is desperate to run around with his friends - it's just this awful diarrhoea which is completely liquid and stinks to high heaven plus his eyes are still v gunky so he's not looking his best sad

Poor Fitz. sad I hope he is better soon.

Poor Fitz. I hope he hasn't picked up Giardia - that gives runny/liquid poo and the most dreadful 'high' smell. Apparently adult dogs rarely succumb despite coming into contact with the bug because their immune systems are stronger than puppies. That and the smell made me wonder.

Are you already collecting a sample? I managed to get enough by collecting a leaf that had been dripped on by Mintys behind! That was enough to prove positive.

It's a tough bug to shift and highly contagious to other dogs and people so be careful just in case.

Does anyone know if a dogs likely to become unusually hungry once they've changed from a rubbish food (Science Plan, maize main Ingred) to a really good gluten free kibble (Simpson - 45% fish, rest veg)? Minty literally paces the utility room where he's fed before and after mealtimes and he is clearly hungry. Not scavenger type hungry - he's always after our food and sniffs the air when I'm cooking. But this is different - he has a little high pitched bark while standing by his food bowl and I'm wondering if it will take a while for him to get used to not being full up of all the maize type stuff.

Sounds a lovely sunny walk Moose - great that you felt up to it. If that's right for you rather than bringing in dog walkers then that's the best for the dogs too - you know them better than anyone and if you're stressed about them going out with others, they're bound to sense that and be unsettled.

moosemama Tue 04-Mar-14 22:38:44

Poor Fitz. Fingers crossed it's not Giardia, but it does sound very similar. When I had to get a sample from Pip while he still had liquid poo, I quickly whipped a piece of greaseproof paper (baking parchment) under his bum as he squatted, then I just used that to tip some into the pot.

I bought a big box of those disposable, medical rubber gloves while he was ill to avoid accidentally coming into contact with anything nasty - but Pip's infection was zoonotic. I don't know about Giardia in that respect.

Honestly the things we talk about thanks to our furry friends! grin

Mint, he could just be adjusting to not having all the bulk. You could try upping it a bit and then gradually tapering it down so it's not such a big shock to the system. The guidelines on the bag aren't always right for every dog. Canagan is done by predicted adult weight and despite being a relative lightweight for his size, Pip is right at the top end of the scale for intake, so is probably getting what a Great Dane or Newfie pup would be on, but is still thin as a rake.

Measured him again this evening. He's grown another inch in less than a month and is now just a smidge over 27" to his shoulders. Being a sighthound he has an arch to his back, that actually means he's taller than his shoulder point. He towers over poor old Lurcherboy (at 24") now - and to think Lurcherboy's nickname has always been 'Big Dog'. grin

Pip still has a fair sized lump at his wrists, which I'm told means he has more growing to do - just how big is he going to get? shock

Moose - you must struggle to know how much to feed Pip if it's based on adult weight! Hard to predict with Pip by sounds of it. I might try upping amount - been giving him a 'fish finger' each evening to settle him. Not a findus variety but a type of dog fish finger bought from our indep pet shop!

Very posh is our dog, eats organic treats sold in sweet little brown paper bags! While me and kids munch on cadburys crap, the dog gets artisan organic gluten free wonders!

Am I dreaming or has the mud subsided? Kitchen floor seems dry each day, hasn't been like that in months!

Wish the mud was sudsiding ...100 Mile an hour dog went to meet his friends at park for 1st time in nearly 2:weeks (due to half term and me at work) and was so giddy that everyone left covered in mud blush . It is such a hard one to crack as he only jumps up when out, never at home. It is because they all give out treats. I am going to dig around on kikopup again and I may have to engineer some situations at home that may make him.jump just so I can teach him not to <sigh>

moosemama Wed 05-Mar-14 11:19:01

Mint your house sounds like ours, dogs fed like royalty and everyone else gets whatever's available. hmm grin

Our garden is a little better. Still muddy, but not liquid anymore. Pip still managed to charge through the back door and run into the living room leaving a trail of muddy footprints this morning though.

I used to estimate his adult weight at 25kg which is a good average for a reasonable height Lurcher, but am not so sure now, as he's still growing like a weed. He's 22kg now, so I assume will top 25 once he gains his adult muscle/condition. I just keep adjusting it according to how he's looking. He's currently having two sardine and kibble XL kongs a day, plus training treats on top of his kibble - we're still feeding him 3 times a day so we can get the food in without risking bloat and he still hasn't an ounce of extra weight on him. Wish I had a metabolism like his! grin

Just been on a lovely walk smile. I went to a local council owned stately home, that I used to take the kids to loads when they were little. Then, they started charging and I got cross with this and didn't go again.

Well, I went today and they have improved it no end, and dogs completely welcome, dog bins everywhere, bags of open space and they have opened more of the green space up. Had a super hour and a half with the dogs, lots of scent work, lots of retrieving for Harry to wear him out. Harry was insane with all the new smells but recalled whenever I needed him to, still charged round like a nutter. Hector pottered.

We met lots of well mannered dogs, including a Bedlington called Peter, which I thought was a great name smile

moosemama Wed 05-Mar-14 16:07:34

Sounds lovely Needa, mine have had to make do with a short trip to the local park when it was quiet today, as I'm on my own with the dcs until Friday and need to pace myself so I don't run out of energy. They don't seem too fussed though, both are snoring away in their beds. We have had a few really good 'sofa games' and I found some particularly robust boxes for playing hide-the treat in.

Dh's Great-Great Aunt was a massive animal lover - used to have an animal sanctuary in Wales, then move back to Warwickshire and took in every waif and stray there. She had a Deerhound called Peter. Lovely woman, very much on the Autistic Spectrum, with her obsession being animals. She used to encourage wild rats through the catflap and hand fed them! shock

When dh was lodging in Lancashire before our new house had finished being built the place he stayed had an enormous Deerhound cross called Dennis. I love that name for a great shaggy hound too. Couldn't use it myself though as it was my Step-Grandad's name and I don't the the family would understand, not least of all because the whole of that side of the family is terrified of dogs!

Pip has decided that he no longer has to sit when asked. hmm Now lots of Lurchers don't like to sit, but he has never had an issue with it. He does 'the Saluki bum hover', where they actually rest their bum on the backs of their feet, rather than putting it on the floor, but it works for him and sit has always been his default offering if when wants something. Well, not today. He has suddenly decided that if asked to sit he just has to skim the ground for a second then spring back up again. hmm So, we've been doing lots of ad-hoc two minute sessions reminding him what's expected today. Tomorrow I will be upping the ante and building in a short sit-stay.

Little monkey has started Saluki whingeing at me when I ask him to sit before he comes back in from the garden too. He used to sit automatically and wait until he was invited in, now I get back-chat if I ask! hmm

Thinking about heading for a beach at the weekend to let ours have a really good run. Really depends how well I am, but if we possibly can we will, as they deserve some proper freedom after all the shorter walks they've been getting. It's a long drive to any beaches from here, but we've done Blackpool before (great beach for dogs as it's so wide). The only fly in the ointment might be that Pip has grown so much that we can't use the crate for travel anymore. I was just about to buy a dog guard, when dh announced he wants to sell the car, so they'd have to be in the boot without a guard, which isn't ideal for a long run.

Dh's plan is to sell the car and the camper and buy a newer VW camper which will have more space for them to have a mahoosive crate with divider at the back. He doesn't use the car on a daily basis anymore as he now cycles and catches the train for his commute. Problem is, I know how long dh's plans tend to take to come to fruition and we still need to take the dogs out in the meantime. I was planning to get a dog-guard specific to the car this month and then a tailgate guard next month, but he's vetoed it. Think I may just overrule him and buy the biggest crate I can fit in the boot - not having any sort of car/dog control isn't an option imho. Men huh?

The plan was for me to restart driving lessons this spring and then have the car myself, but this health relapse has called that into question. Whatever happens, I am definitely not driving a great big VW camper on a daily basis after I pass my test, so we'll have to get another car, which could be the same as the one we've got, but newer and therefore use the same guard. <<apologies just thinking aloud>>

DH is away for a week from Saturday, so understand it's tiring, and I am not ill. Like the idea of your aunt. Funny, my DB is clearly on the autistic spectrum (DN is diagnosed), but it wasn't recognised 40 years ago. He's the gentlest, kindest person I know actually, who is absolutely happy with his lot in life.

I've got used to a bigger car over the years, but wouldn't have wanted to start with one, so understand that too.

The dogs are busy trying to get into an Amazon box as I type, it's only got carrot in though smile

Hector is so easy!! House training is getting a lot less frenetic, as he can last a few hours now, so I am not watching him like a hawk. He picks up stuff really easily and is a little love.

The puppy phase gets easier so quickly, you forget that bit too. Not that there's not a long way to go, just it's so much easier than at 8 weeks.

moosemama Wed 05-Mar-14 17:14:16

Dh's Aunt was awesome, I just wish she'd lived longer as I think we'd have got on like a house on fire. grin She really upset the family by leaving the 'family fortune' to a collection of rescue charities. They had to buy back all the family silver and other significant items and were absolutely livid about it. (If you knew dh's family you'd know why that's so funny. wink)

You can clearly see a line of relatives who have/had ASD on dh's side of the family. Going back to Victorian times they were very well known and regarded in their home town. The head of the family at the time was thought of as extremely odd/quirky because he was vegetarian! grin

I wouldn't mind another estate car - have driven this one a few times when I've toyed with the idea of taking my test - just don't like the idea of driving one of these.

Good to hear things are going so well with Hector.

There's one problem with artisan, organic wonderful doggie fish fingers - they give minty foul breath! Just been in for a cuddle after his nightly treat and it was horrid!

Are people teeth brushing once a week? We haven't started yet but I might start now!

I brush teeth now and then but it isn't weekly if I am honest as he doesn't like it. I am relying mostly on RMB's to do the job with a clean maybe once every 2-3 weeks.

Needa - our local park 5 mins walk away sounds very similar to the one you went to. Hall/Museum, tea rooms, lovely grounds with small woods and ponds. It is a lovely resource to have on your doorstep but you can understand why I am up against in for distractions recall wise. It is impossible unless I go meet the early morning dog walkers.

moosemama Wed 05-Mar-14 22:42:40

I try to remember to brush, but am a bit crap at it. I have bought some Plaque Off powder after quite a few people on the Lurcher forum said it had really helped their dogs to avoid veterinary dentals.

Lurchers and other sighthounds can be prone to dental problems, as they don't manage to get things far enough back in their long palate to scrape the back teeth - in some cases even raw won't do it. Lurcheboy's teeth are all fine except the top two big ones at the back, which are dreadful and Pip has already started developing a tiny bit of tartar on the same teeth, so I want to try and stop it before it starts.

basildonbond Thu 06-Mar-14 12:15:15

We have solid poo!!! Apart from being thoroughly fed up of being on the lead he seems pretty much back to normal smile

Hope you're all enjoying the break from the rain

moosemama Thu 06-Mar-14 12:25:03

Fantastic news. So pleased he's feeling himself again. smile

Ahh that is great news!

....but it is raining here!

moosemama Thu 06-Mar-14 14:12:45

It rained here at school run time - luckily dh was on duty for that today - but has been dry ever since and quite warm too.

moosemama Thu 06-Mar-14 16:45:13

Aw - just caught ds2 having a conversation with Pip.

"It's OK Pip I do still love you loads, but I can't let you in the living room while you've got muddy feet."

grin

Well, I made a couple of off the cuff posts on fb after spending too long mooching around online last night and now my poor head is in an absolute spin.

Many of you on here may know about the issues we have had with our dog (right, posting his name in full will completely out me in real life so I'll give you his nickname! Maz) I raw feed due to awful gastro issues he had as a pup.

Last night I was on FB and someone on a Border Terrier page I use posted a link to a breed profile. I was bored and clicked and it mentioned an hereditary disease BT's suffer from known as CECS or Spikes disease. I always thought it was just fitting. It gave a brief description and mentioned abdonimal cramps and gurgly tummies can be the only symptom.

I decided to post on a raw feeding BT's group I use to ask opinions describing what used to happen. I was signposted to a CECS group also and mutual.viewing of you tube vids of CECS in action and it is looking very likely. It would also seem there is alot of pedigree 'family tree' in common with the original 'Spike' sad

Now, the positive is that Maz has been doung well with only they odd 'poorly tummy' since going raw a year ago. And guess what the original Spikes owner managed the then emerging condition with? Yep, raw!

Feel a little bombarded with info at the moment which I will apparently more than likely need to fire in the vets direction.

basildonbond Thu 06-Mar-14 20:33:52

Sorry! Was being v London-centric with my weather report (just sooo glad to see the sun though!)

Fan - try not to worry - I've managed to convince myself the dc, dpets and I have all had dire diseases courtesy of Dr Google - but does sound like it's worth mentioning next time you're at the vet

Having chatted to some people with experience and watched these two videos m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=HSwa-VV-4CM m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=GCWLn9Om_m4 I am not in any doubt at all. This is classic Maz when he was having his tummy episodes and way I nearly drove myself demented trying to find a food that suits. sad

The good thing is that I have by happy accident done the very thing that the lady who did fought to get in recognised recommends so in one way, one worry is off as it is already under control. It has only happened a couple of times since raw feeding. He shakes too whilst it happens which is typical. I am just worried and want to ask questions about progression (if indeed it does get worse) as some videos are awfully upsetting as some dogs also lose control of their legs etc. Although they are aware and concious their bodies look like they are fitting sad

I should qualify that with I am not saying I don't need the vets opinion, I know better blush I just mean that with the people I have talked through symptoms with who have lots of knowledge on it (been lucky enough to be put in touch with the lady I mentioned earlier too), videos watched and comparing pedigrees (it is genetic) I just feel sure.

A few people have said their vets had never heard of it until they took their dog (I supose with it being breed specific and only recognised within last 20 or so years). Will I look like a pratt if I ring ahead and pre warn them what I want to discuss?

moosemama Thu 06-Mar-14 21:38:20

Fan, sorry, I didn't want to read and run, but can't really help tonight as I'm a bit of a mess with stuff going on with ds1 and have just managed to alienate just about everyone on the SN boards chat thread.

I'm so sorry you are going through this, you must be really worried. flowers

I don't think there's anything wrong with calling to have a chat with your vet, alerting them to your fears and asking them to either refer you to a specialist or book an appointment to discuss it all further. They can then do a bit of research before they see you and hopefully find out the best specialist to refer you on to.

He's a very lucky boy to have you. You've done all the right things instinctively and I think you should carry on trusting your instincts with this.

Thanks Moose...to be honest I don't think there is much to be done if I am honest which is why I haven't been banging down the door today. From what I have read most owners learn to manage it themselves and it doesn't seem to shorten life...just unpleasent when it happens. I think some drugs buscopan for one can help but a gluten free diet at the very least seems to help to minimise attacks with raw seeming preferable.

Been advised not to worm or vaccinate and do worm count and titre test too. This is where I struggle to go with the raw flow as every fibre in my body screams that this is what you do to protect your dog. Alot to read and discuss. Strangely I am awaiting coeliac screening and have chronic gut issues too, a 2nd colonoscopy is brewing I have been warned!

I am sorry you are having a tough day moose. Have thanks and either brew or wine as preference dictates but I'll join in with brew as my guts can't deal with wine!

I can always stomach wine smile

How do you feel about your discovery fan, in control, or wish you hadn't known? Can you find out for sure by medical testing or will you even ask the vet? Sounds like Maz is doing fine on raw anyway, and your instincts were correct.

Poor you moose, please remember to breathe! Had a quick scan of SN, can't see you've alienated folk, and certainly not us anyway smile

First agility for Harry and I tonight, and it was great fun! Harry is KNACKERED and ran to bed as soon as he got in. He did really well, considering it was a riding school full of strange equipment, noise and DOGS! His focus on me was excellent, his springer nose took over a few times, he never ran off when off lead, loved the jumps and was utterly crap at the tunnel as he couldn't deal with me going to the other end, his instinct is to follow me. He did get on top of the tunnel more the IN the tunnel tbh!!

I was just as crap with it all, but have no doubt we will learn, Harry is a very well behaved dog who does check back to me constantly, we will learn how to do the stuff together and it was fun concentrating on him alone.

We actually had great fun, the trainer is super and the people really friendly, we won't ever be at Crufts though smile

I feel that we have it under control at the moment but a little scared for the future if that makes sense needa? I know we have it in hand now by happy accident. However, I feel a little alarmed by the unknown quantity element. I understand it is now a medically recognised condition. It is always mentioned on any breed profiles you read. Most places suggest it is hereditery (sp?) but then others who opinions I have valued say no it is years of processed foods and over vaccinating and in all BT strains so not a genetic issue. I feel under pressure all of a sudden to decide about things I have been doing for 18 mnths withput thought which is silly really as I know one more dose of advocate won't kill him whilst I research more smile Does that make sense.

A lovely lady who is involved in the fb page for the disease who everyone seemed to say 'wait for xxxx to come, she knows everything!' has given me her number to ring her when crufts is over , so I will do so I think. I have cried today watching sad videos of the dogs on their backs thrashing around spasming sad I don't want that for my boy. The lady who gave me her number said you test to exclude other things first and then safe to say CECS but she did agree that yes, sounds very likely it is CECS, as have a few others and he presents exactly like the dogs in those two videos...stretching and arching with a really loud belly noise.

Anyway, that it pretty self indulgent stuff isn't it! blush agility sounds like so much fun! We'd love it, shame Maz would just run off to cause havoc instead. I bet you can't wait to go back.

You can have wine, I'll have a nice cuppa and we will sit here and wait for Moose to finally cave in with her beverage of choice!

Moose - really sorry you're going through a tough time with other things. Wishing you lots of strength.

Fan - what an awful discovery, how upsetting. Like you say, at least you're already on raw and doing everything you can from a dietary perspective. Sounds like you're getting really on top of it with lots of information and vet opinion.

Needa - agility sounds brilliant. Is it tiring for you as the human?! I find puppy class really hard on my back with all the bending down business and that's despite having a tall dog! But I'm hoping agility will be more about fitness, running around and quite good physically for me as well as dog!

Just been to visit a dog boarder - my head is buzzing after spending an hour in a house/garden with minty (super bouncy puppy) and 5 other dogs (all older, some calm pottery types some leaping, zapping dogs!). It was amazingly calm, though there were moments of growling and putting-puppy-in-place from resident terrier! We are going to try a 24hr stay and see how all get on before committing to a week.

moosemama Fri 07-Mar-14 14:19:07

Fan, not self-indulgent at all and what you are saying makes perfect sense. I will stick to the brew with you, although only decaff, as I sleep badly enough as it is.

Mint, thanks for your support - I really appreciate it.

Dh has just found out from our LA that ds1 and the other pupils from our LEA have basically been caught in the crossfire of a huge political and funding row between the school and the LA. Strangely feel better now I know it's not just us and I wasn't over-reacting or being unreasonable. We have a tough few weeks ahead, but at least we know what we're up against now.

Pip seems to be full of the joys of spring today. A bit of sunshine and he's bouncing around like a spring lamb. He's been a welcome distraction for ds1 and has even managed to make him laugh, which is no mean feat at the moment.

That's good moose, that you are armed with facts at least.

I can imagine agility being good for fitness. You need to be coordinated, and I haven't quite worked that out yet i.e. when to throw the toy just as the obstacle is completed. And, I crashed into a jump that Harry had done perfectly smile

Apparently, I will need to be able to command left and right (obviously) but always the dogs left and right, even if I am not facing the same way. I am crap at that so that should be interesting smile

I decided to join my local park for £18 per annum. It's so lovely and, because we are so rural, very quiet, far more so than the busy one I often go to that is more central to the city. We had a wonderful walk, the dogs were so good and charged around like mad things.

We met a plethora of cockers too, mainly all black, Hector was in heaven smile. All with ace names such as Doris and Maggie and Marge etc. All beautifully behaved with lovely owners so he got a great play, he's completely fine with other dogs now.

Was especially proud of him when we turned a corner to find a reactive JRT on lead. Didn't have time to put mine on lead so they sat quietly and did a brilliant 'watch me' until he was far enough away. Hector then tried to chase after him but recalled first time. This has been my first real test of his training so I was pleased.

And the sun is shining so life is great anyway smile

I am sitting on the info I have and reading and digesting as I have a few questions for those in the know that I haven't had replies to before I run to the vets. He is symptom free at the moment so no urgency. Basically I want advice on when to blood test. If we are looking to exclude other things should I wait till the next episode? I just wonder if say, he is prone to gut infections say, wouldn't testing now just come back neg?

Have checked care plan we have at vets (alongside ins) and include twice annual health check and annual disgnostic blood tests if deemed necessary so hopefully can be done with that. Not sure if need to wait for next health check or not but will speak to them sooner (due april/may) depending on what I am advised about when to test because as we speak he is fit as a butchers! smile

Moose...I take it I have a fellow insomniac here? I have huge problems with sleep and have managed to create a whole anxiety bubble around bedtime now...how dh bed shares with me I will never know! I really feel for you with the problems with school/lea. There is nothing worse than feeling like you are being sacraficed for the arguements of others. But hopefully you know what you are up against now.

Sounds like a lovely place you have found there needa...dogs are going to be shattered! (or am I just being hopeful on your behalf!)

moosemama Fri 07-Mar-14 17:29:17

Sounds like you have found dog walking heaven needa. Maybe there's a bit of a Simpson's theme going on with Maggie and Marge and you'll meet Bart, Homer and Santa's Little Helper next time! grin

Well done Hector on your fantabulous recall - what a clever pup! grin

Fan, it's great that he's so fit and it may be that they just want to monitor for now and will either test when you have your next health check or if it's one of those things that only shows up when 'active', as it were, they will wait until/if he starts to show symptoms again.

Yep, I am an insomniac, have been for years. I hate going to bed because, like you, it's become a flash point for stress/anxiety. I have restless body legs syndrome and also suffer from episodes that the neuro is undecided as to whether may be epilepsy related. The only thing that reduces the anxiety is to try and have a degree of routine, so a Pukka Night-time tea and reading a couple of chapters of a non-challenging book. It doesn't necessarily help me sleep any better, but it stops me stressing that I won't. If I've been really bad and not slept for a long time I resort to taking cocodamol to knock myself out for a night. blush

The only thing I've found that helps a bit is Nelson's Noctura. I was very sceptical about them, but I actually do think I have better quality sleep if I take them and unlike some of the herbal ones, they don't leave me groggy in the morning. Currently trying L-Theanine supplements, but haven't made my mind up about them yet.

Mine started after am episode of Labyrinthitis. After the initial can't stand at all vertigo symptoms died down one of the worst symptoms was feeling movement like being on a boat when laid down. In went of for about 18 mnths to settlenin which time I had managed to start with anxiety about bed/sleep. I feel like a crazy person at bedtime and now have allsorts of nonsensical things I 'have' to do to go to bed (ritual like I guess if I am honest). I can hack the none sleep better than I can the 6 hours laid there feeling my heart leaping out of my chest! I take piriton every night too blush so you are not on your own with med cheats!

My 'rountine' is verging on slightly nutty now and my latest addition to it is Vicks on my feet. I did it when I had a cold, it became one of the 'things' and now I can't stopblush

moosemama Fri 07-Mar-14 18:33:09

Oh Labrythitis is evil dh had it a few years back. Our local Osteopath was the only thing that helped and the GP was amazed at how quickly he recovered enough to go back to work.

I hate that feeling too, lying there wide awake and feeling the panic rise. There was some question that my 'query' seizures were actually some sort of panic attack, but they think they've ruled that out now.

We do Vicks on your feet for a cold too - but can't say we do it for everyday bedtimes.

Would you maybe consider trying some CBT for it? I believe it can work very quickly for specific anxieties.

I would Moose but these things seem to be near inpossible to get on NHS and I can't afford to pay...that money goes on sorting Maz out instead. He plays his part in ensuring I can't completely lose the plot anyway so he is worth it!

I muddle through in my own little way, and whilst my vicks habit is abit odd, it hurts no one. Thats what I keep telling DH when he rolls his eyes at me anyway grin.

I have more pressing issues at the minute to bother GP with as IBS symptoms have escalated to epic proportions now and have been quite poorly. Need that sorting before we tackle my erm night time quirkiness grin GP knows about it and agrees one at a time! Coeliac testing first and then camera to check again for Crohns etc which is an immediate family thing. Talk about dogs being like their owners eh? Do you reckon I need a raw diet? grin

I'd second that idea about CBT Moose - very good for anxieties and also for tackling insomnia. Much better for insomnia than sleeping tablets as the latter change the structure of your sleep so you miss out on some of the best restorative properties of sleep, even though they knock you out so you do actually sleep IYSWIM. Whereas CBT does not alter the sleep make up at all and can be very effective for some people.

GP should be able to refer for CBT though waiting lists can be long. But like you say Fan, maybe one step at a time.

Do you think changing a dogs diet to better quality food can change their behaviour in a week? And I hope I haven't already asked this as I'm sure I have asked someone this question recently and my head is full of migraine today so I can't remember if I asked in RL or on here!! Is that really embarrassing? Better not tell my teenage son that I'm confusing RL and MN or I would get serious eye rolling!

I changed minty a week ago and over the last 2-3 days I've noticed a massive change in behaviour - tonight for example 6 people for tea, loads of dishes being carried out, noise, smells and he lay beautifully by dining table watching it all save for few minutes of barking. We've had stair gate open - no charging upstairs, no leaping at my dad tonight, my dad stuck a newspaper between him and dog so dog walked off. Last week he was pawing at my dad then barking! Such a difference.

Moose - dogs really do play a wonderful role within a family don't they? With their capacity to distract and cheer people up. Hope your DS is OK.

moosemama Fri 07-Mar-14 22:06:59

Fan, definitely one thing at a time and ... step away from the raw chicken wings! grin Ds1 is gluten free after his coeliac test was messed up and I refused to put him through any further tests, as his food diary and reactions were clear enough. Paed said he couldn't give him prescription food, but that he wanted him to be treated as if he's coeliac anyway, as all the indications were there. It's made a huge different from him removing gluten from his diet and if he has so much as a tiny cross-contamination these days the results are nasty for him. Poor lad, he has so much to deal with.

Mint, yes diet can have a really rapid effect on a dog's behaviour good or bad depending on which way it's changed. So Minty's exemplary behaviour this evening could well have a lot to do with his diet.

Ds is doing ok thank you. He slept last night for the first time in weeks - once he knew he didn't have to face school today. We're going to have a quiet weekend and take the dogs out somewhere nice, as ds always does best out in the country or on the beach. Things are a real mess and very complicated with the LEA and school, but at least we know what we're up against now.

Caught the Irish Wolfhound winning the Hound Group on Crufts when I was channel hopping this evening. Now all 3 dcs want a Wolfhound! shock

I'm too scared to try sleeping pills anyway Mint. I think I have a reasonably good rapport with my dr but he always shakes his head at my refusals to try certain things...sleeping pills, anti anxiety meds and co codomol amongst them. I know, what I am like, I can see myself relying on them quickly and I am a firm believer in not giving in. But I do need to sort out the scariest of the ibs symptoms first.

DH is bi-polar, diagnosed for nearly 7 years. Finally decided to take medication precisely 5 weeks ago. The difference in him is remarkable, the change in our family is remarkable. I supported his decision not to medicate, but can't help but feel some anger that we have had to endure the last 7 years. (silly anger, will get over it smile)

Anyway, DH is now away on business for a week, the DC are at various parties, and I am here with a wine and a pizza, which is my own particualr medication!

The dogs have been great today, Hector is 15 weeks today and, so far, all his experiences have been positive. Lovely dogs we met today, and he's actively seeking introductions now, which have been politely accepted. Really hoping the groundwork has been worth it, and we get another lovely dog smile

Arudonto Sat 08-Mar-14 20:36:43

I heard a great quote on sheepdog/collies from a lady who has 6 of them!
"Walking them all day to wear them out doesn't work to keep them quiet...they just get fitter" :P
Trying brain and thinking related exercises as well as the exercise may help though....collies are the smartest dog breed in the world and there are hundreds of tricks out there to teach..youtube is great for ideas..

Shes also still at the age where he adult teeth may still be coming through. So having a good supply of bones and chew toys to give her when shes in chewing mode as an alternative to helping herself to the table or other undesirable objects can help. Helps if they are given rather than freely avaiable as this makes them more desirable.
if you see her eying the table or looking for mischief distract her with an approved toy or by getting her to use her head to do tricks or obedience training.
Kongs can be filled with food to keep them busy for a while for the smarter dog they can also be frozen to make them last longer....my mutt whos part collie(wasnt quite brave enough to take on a pure collie though they are one of my favourite dog types) is kept content and quiet by giving her a bone/pizzle stick or oxtail,in my case she is crate trained so she eats them in there as well.Keeps her busy while I can get on with things

Needa - if your DH has been coping with that for so long, it was a really brave step to start meds. You've just got to let go of the last7 yrs and think he was trying to do his best during that time, but would have had no idea what a difference medication can make. Brave step and it's really good that it's working out so well.

I would be there joining you in wine and pizza but I've had a pie, peas and cider night in the local with the girls! Funny how people divide into 'dog' people and 'don't get it' non-dog people! Hope I've not become a dog-bore with the non-dog people, I do try to manage a whole conversation without mentioning minty but I'm afraid I'm more interested in talking about him nowadays than almost any other topic! I'll get over myself soon I'm sure.

Ha - I suspect I am a dog bore now, but try hard not to be, get my fix on here. Pie, peas and cider sounds like my kind of night out. smile

Agree, my sensible head says absolutely let go, the emotional side is trying to catch up a little, it's been a bit of a rollercoaster at times. The illness doesn't just affect the person who has it, has such an impact on the folk who love the person the most, but hopefully, we are getting there.

Weather super here already, so might get some gardening done today, and just going to walk my two now.

MInty sounds like such a character. smile

Beautiful with us here too so just cooked sausages for minty for an early walk. DS2 just had minor meltdown as he could smell the sausage, assumed it was his breakfast and was rather upset to find his usual fried egg on toast and no sausage (he couldn't even pinch them as they're cheap & cheery ones not gluten free DS specials!)

Minty is a bit of a character! He gets lots of adoration for being so fluffy and knows how to get lots of fussing!

You're right Needa about impact on family. So many relationships break down before the stage you're at so you and your DH sound like a really strong support unit.

After a couple weeks discussing/persuading kids that we should not take dog on holiday with us to Scotland as him and my elderly father do not mix well and it's a 10hr drive which is no fun for a bouncy puppy - kids finally agreed but the dog boarder is full that week!

Minty passed his assessment at dog boarders, she has said she'd be happy to take him as he got on with her dogs really well but she's fully booked.

Not sure whether to look at either alternative local dog boarder who our dog trainer described as "chaotic" or the kennels nearby. How bad can chaotic be? Will
Minty feel forlorn and abandoned in kennels? My old dog used to not eat at all in kennels - he was skinny anyway but a week in kennels and he used to come home amasciated.

I think the word is emasciated - no excuse really for such shoddy spelling!

Mint, I think you live not too far from me. We have found a brilliant kennels for Meg- lots of play, quiet (only housed in 3 or 4 dog blocks so not noisy). Meg did not look at us when we went to collect her, ran straight to owner for another play. Believe you can watch them online when they are in their (underfloor heated bright airy) kennels but they are so often out. PM if you want the details (it is in Derbyshire nearish to Matlock).

Thanks barbarian, I've sent you a message. I'd travel an hour to reach a good dog boarder so maybe that would work out.

How was Meg when you got her home? Did she settle and remember how to do all her chores like loading the washing machine?!

Yes she did. It was like she had never been away. She did three days and then I had to be away for a night and she did another. The second time she recognised the place and tugged to get back.
The second time when dh and I came to collect her she ran to the owner, not us!

Glad your family is getting on an even keel needa.

Admitting to my crazy ways has obviously worked as I have slept like a baby the last couple of days grin I can keep a grip of it most of the time.

I hope you find somewhere for minty to go too mint. What a shame.

We have had some lovely walks the last few days whilst the weather has been nice. The downside being at the weekend when the sheer amount of people out meant that even a walking a mile or so from civilisation we still couldn't manage to find a quiet spot. The childish part of me wanted to foot stamp and demand to know why these people thought they had to spoil my fun when I had earnt the right by tramping the same riverside path in december and january and they can't just decide to have it now its warm grin You will be very pleased to know however that I put Maz in the dreaded evil flexi (which we still couldn't unlock due to 1000 cyclists) and greated everyone with a smile whilst pouting internally wink

Oooh andbjust because I have only just noticed we now can...I am going to introduced Maz properly. He is even sitting nicely for you all grin

moosemama Tue 11-Mar-14 14:32:04

Having a whole load of fresh hell here (non-dog related) so apologies for my absence.

Been curled up with ds1 on the sofa watching the Heelwork to Music and Freestyle comps from Crufts, as my old Trainer is in both classes. Silly moo that I am, everytime I watch it it makes me cry. Not sure why, other than it's a world I used to belong to but don't anymore. Don't think Pip would be very good at HTM! grin My Wheaten girl was an absolute star at it and best of all absolutely adored training, even nagged me to train her the whole time we were out on walks, but I let her down by being too shy to ever go in the ring with her.

Fan, I felt the same at the weekend, there were dogs everywhere, loads of dogs I've never even seen before locally. Do these people only walk their dogs when the sun shines? confused

Hope everything is okay Moose.

If it makes you feel any better I was really emotional watching Crufts and I have no excuse! The friends for life films in particular have me in bits!

LadyTurmoil Tue 11-Mar-14 15:52:59

Maz is lovely (i'd peeked at your profile pics already). I was glad the girl in Friends for Life won, although they all had very emotional stories. Glad you've been able to get some good sleep, must make all the difference smile

moosemama Tue 11-Mar-14 16:32:31

Things are a long way off okay fan, but we'll get through it, we always do.

The girl that won FFL had her last dog from the same Lurcher rescue as Lurcherboy. She has has such a terrible time of it, then her Lurcher died last year as well. I really wanted her to win and was so glad when she did.

I sobbed over the Scrufts winner as well. What that poor dog has been through in Afghanistan and yet he's still so calm and trusting. What an incredible dog. sad smile

Sorry to hear that Moose, I hope you manage to sort things as soon as.

I cried at the the Scrufts dog too. Great that he can still trust people after all that, and that the rest of his days will be his reward for not giving up on us.

Thanks LadyTurmoil smile

basildonbond Tue 11-Mar-14 19:48:47

ooh this new photo thingy is exciting grin

As you can see, Fitz has had a very busy couple of days ...

lovely to 'see' Maz, fan

moose - sounds like you're still going through a rough time

we're on a fairly even keel at the moment - Fitz has completely perked up after his op, tummy's back to normal and his eye infection is on the mend (needed antibiotics though)

he's bathing in reflected glory at the moment as one of his cousins won best in breed at crufts - oo-er!!

moosemama Tue 11-Mar-14 20:52:14

How odd. That post with the picture of the lovely Maz, has only just shown up on my computer. The post before mine on my screen was the one from just before 11.00 this morning. confused

He's a cutie fan. How could you refuse those eyes a thing! grin

Good o hear Fitz is fully recovered Basil - and we have puppy royalty on the thread then! grin Gorgeous picture of his all curled up snoozing. smile

I need to take an up to date picture of my lanky beast. Will try and get one of him standing up so you can see how ridiculously long his legs are.

Aww Fitz is lovely and I am glad he is feeling better. Looking forward to a nice smattering of pics from.now on - HQ is going to regret giving us this facility grin

Maz's gr gr gr grandad was crufts bob champion. Any royal BT blood has clearly been diluted as Maz is known as fleabag furry face. We did take the 1st place rosette in scruffiest dog in last years town show though grin

Oooh those pics are lovely. Fitz is gorgeous, what a lush shiny coat! The maz has such an endearing expression.

I must try attaching a pic!

Really sorry Moose, hope the sofa cuddling time helped. Your DS must have loved that - having his mum all to himself must be a rare treat in a busy house! I can understand why watching crufts would be upsetting - even if you wouldn't swap your current life for it in a million years, seeing a reminder of past happy times can be draining and confusing. I feel like that when I go to London for a work meeting - all these buzzy people in smart clothes dashing about, grabbing a latte to go into the office and popping into the wine bar on the way out - and I feel kind of sad that I don't have that adrenalin rush & high anymore, then I look at my short, unpainted nails and my out of date shoes & clothes and I feel a bit dissatisfied that I couldn't cut it anymore anyway and then I remember my warm snugly boys at home obsessing about their spellings or what page of Lord of the Rings they've reached or why the other boy has their favourite tea that night instead of them and I get such a rush of belongingness and calm that I forget the rest and think how lucky I am. Weird isn't it?

Going to try again for a pic of minty!

Aww Minty is just so cute...I just want to squishy cuddle him!

basildonbond Wed 12-Mar-14 06:13:46

Minty is so cute! Look at his paws!! How much bigger is he going to get mint?

Thanks! He is a super cuddly sweetie and likes to lean against us sideways for his cuddles as though he's giving us maximum opportunity to stroke his long torso!

I think he's nearly finished growing so his paws do look massive there - maybe phone angle!

Sorry fan to call your dog 'the maz'! Not sure what I meant to type there but he has a very sweet expression.

We met two women on a walk this weekend with a 17yr old lurcher!! He was so sedate. They were lovely women who asked if they could say hello to minty then one of them did a big hello, stroke, cuddle while the other stood calmly reassuring their old boy - then they swapped over! It was lovely the way they were so gentle and careful about meeting the needs of their own, obviously very special dog, while being really keen to cuddle our bouncy boy! The chat was great too - they were asking us about how minty had enhanced our lives. Afterwards I was struck by how supportive they were - sort of helped our bonding with him - not that we need much help but it's lovely when people are positive about your dog & lifestyle choices.

Maz is not very well today. He is having the first of his poorly episodes he has had since I started to suspect CECS/Spikes disease sad

I'd rather he was well but it is giving me the opportunity to look at the big picture and sadly seems to definitely be pointing that way. He has the obvious belly ache and I can see his back legs trembling every now and again. He is doing the slow deliberate steps thing but he is also stopping to look at his back legs and every now and then he is really stretching out a back leg. Coupled with mournful eyes and lip licking and alternating between slinking off and burrowing into me so hard it is like he is trying to be absorbed sad Poor boy. And I am afraid I am not even more convinced it is CECS. Luckily it only seems to last a few hours.

It is often diet related so I will have to consider what he had yesterday. I opened a new pack of feelwells liver treats which I specifically picked up as gluten free! He also had minced duck which he has had before, but not often. I may need to pay attention and see what happens next time he has it.

now even

moosemama Wed 12-Mar-14 12:36:38

Poor little Maz, it sounds horrendous. Sending healing vibes and hope it's just a short relapse and he's back to himself really quickly. flowers

moosemama Wed 12-Mar-14 12:37:50

Minty looks so cute in that photograph. Ds1 was totally smitten. grin

Pip has a long back as well and has now decided that if we can sit on the sofa, so can he, so he reverses up, plonks his bum down and crosses his legs. I swear he thinks he's human and that's why he doesn't trust other dogs! hmm grin

moosemama Wed 12-Mar-14 12:41:15

Fan, just reread your post and his behaviour sounds just like what Lurcherboy was like when he had a bladder infection that wouldn't go away and let to him getting a cystic prostate. Arched back, stretching out his back leg, especially when he rose from lying down, slow jerky back-leg gait, bit wobbly on the back legs too. According to our vet, any pain in the lower abdomen can display like that. We took him to the vet thinking he'd hurt his back or legs - had no idea that it was connected to his waterworks problems. He was thoroughly miserable as well and totally glued to my side, just like Maz.

Poor little fella. sad

Poor Maz, hope he's ok Fan. we worry so very much about our dogs don't we? Perhaps time to get the vet involved? Sorry, I have missed if you have said whether this has long term health implications, other than the diet, which you are already managing.

Fitz, Maz and Minty are adorable, I will post some pictures after this post, from my phone as it's easier. They all still look very puppy like don't they?

Been a busy few days, DD has been struggling a bit with DH's bi-polar and showing some anger, so feel for you Moose, although she shares emotion with her friends as well as myself now, being a teen. I hate my DC feeling awful, breaks your heart doesn't it? School has been excellent so she has good support.

DH is away too, which means I feel a bit stretched....!

mint - the Lurcher sounds lovely, 17 is amazing for any breed. I feel a bit like that too at times. I am scruffy all the time at th moment having the puppy, whenever I meet folk I am in dog walking clothes and muddy. Much as I love them, I do know what you mean smile

I make sure I have my nails done every 3 weeks, for no particular reason other than to feel slightly glamourous!!

It is worth mentioning moose and I will bear that in mind when I talk to the vet. I doubt it is an infection as it happens so infrequently (been about 3 months since the last time until today) and after anything between 30 mins and 4 or 5 hours he is back to himself, tearing the place up! Worth ruling out any other abdo pain possibilities too though.

It seems to affect his neck too...he twists his neck and stretches his head right out. Like his leg when he stretches it looks really still and rigid. He has only done that briefly this time though that I have noticed this morn. It is definitely mainly back legs and tummy this time.

He is sleeping now. Usually wakes up fine after a long snooze so we shall see. Dh says he took him out whilst he mowed the lawn yesterday and Maz found it highly amusing to dive in, snaffle a huge mouthful of grass and then dive off eating it so that is also in the mix of unusual things consumed!

Definitely intend to involve the vet needa, just needed to have a reason to go at the time rather than a 'well, you know how he is fine now but used to be ill...' I thought it would be best to do it when he has had a recent episode rather than talking about historic stuff iykwim? Plus I thought if they do blood tests to rule out other issues, it would perhaps be better if he has had symptoms more recently? He has been in vets with it several times before but because it is few and far between it has always been a pain killing jab and then when he is right as rain two hours later the vet has always said it must have been something he has eaten . Because it happens rarely now, until I have read about CECS, I have never put 2 and 2 together to think that they were maybe not individual episodes. Maybe they are, I guess time and several vets visits will tell (prays thanks I took out plan that covers all consults and disgnostic annual blood tests! Though he is insured)

Oh, and glamour for me means putting my hunter wellies ans berghaus jacket on to cover with mud....I can tell myself it is okay because it is functional quality! grin

<says it all when I asked my best friend if she had noticed the 4 inches I had cut off my hair this morn and she replied "Oh sorry, I thought you'd just brushed it!" >

moosemama Wed 12-Mar-14 14:08:36

Fan, I didn't mean I think you may have it wrong. I get the feeling that you are so intuitive about your boy you really should trust your instincts with this. It just hit me that I'd come across the same behaviour/symptoms before and how awful it is for the dog and how upsetting it must be for you.

I don't do glamour at all, especially not these days. I've gained three stone over the last two years and am desperate to lose it again, as when I started gaining I had just invested in lots of new clothes which are now sitting in my wardrobe taunting me. hmm

I am planning to have all my hair cut off and sent to the Little Princess Trust on, of all days, April Fool's Day! I started growing it when pregnant with dd 6 years ago, have had a bit of a couple of time since, but it's now mid/lower back length and getting on my nerves. It's always plaited to keep it out of my way and I keep lying on it and waking myself up when I turn over at night. hmm Had a look at the website and it says they take 7" in length or more, then measured mine and I reckon I can give them 11" and still have enough left for a decent short haircut! grin