New Puppy Mummies No. 4

(300 Posts)
SallyBear Thu 30-Jan-14 10:52:22

Have we really got to a fourth thread already?! grin Wow.

Please feel free to join in.

I have Toby, who is a 7 month old foxy coloured Labrador.

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 11:03:44

Jayne, I have a treat pouch I bought off Ebay for a couple of pounds.

If he has already sussed that stopping biting and sitting gets a reward, you need to start slowly increasing the length of time between the desired behaviour and reward. Just up it a second each time until he starts getting the message that he doesn't just have to let go, he has to stay unattached, iyswim.

Jayne (Meg 3rd bordercollie so we knew what we were in for) was an absolute devil for this- much worse than no.s 1 & 2, and in the end we used a small misting spray and it worked. I thought about cruel too, but not half as cruel as stepping on her (which we all did). I also used it for swiping things off tables (it hasn't worked so well there). I think there is a limit to how much rewarding you can do for positive and ignoring bad behaviour. We rewarded Meg too much (she would stop half way through an outdoor poo for instance to come for her praise and treat- with horrid results!)
Now we use praise and toys as a reward (and brushing) and kibble rewards for small good things with cheese for top work such as recall and (current effort, work in progress) loading the washing machine.

Thanks, Sallybear! These threads are such a help.

SallyBear Thu 30-Jan-14 11:20:58

You're welcome!
Did any of you see my disgusting poo eating thread? Any idea how to get Toby to stop? Why is he doing it, could it be nutrient related, is it a Labrador thing or is he just a delinquent?

Checking in smile

Yes I did, Sallybear. My friend's terrier does it too. He is such a contortionist that sometimes...
Well, you can imagine. He has a special place for doing it too, just outside their dining room window. I suspect it is absolutely natural behaviour in wolves etc (ask Chris Packham!) In the awful old antarctic days Amundsen kept the outdoor loos clear by allowing the huskies free access. Yuk, yuk, yuk.
Meg, dear little animal, has a passion for cat sick. Any ideas on that?

(This is an entirely unhelpful post.)

Racerider Thu 30-Jan-14 11:50:50

Any tips for keeping puppy of dishwasher while loading ? She even licks it when clean , must be salty. And same for Hoover Cable ? She doesn't like the kong enough to be able to to bribed with it yet.

Thanks for all of the play biting tips. Pup is only 9 weeks today and hasn't mastered sit yet but I'm working on it. She doesn't seem fussed on treats yet- she finds things difficult to chew unless they've been soaked in water.

My mum's BC is a poo eater. She's been advised to add something like pineapple to her food. The poo doesn't smell as attractive then apparently. She hasn't tried it and I haven't googled it (which probably isn't much help)

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 12:01:48

Distract and reward will work, but it takes a lot of time and effort and you have to be totally consistent.

I don't like water sprays really, as any negative reinforcement is only suppressing the behaviour, rather than actually teaching an appropriate alternative.

If they're going straight back to the behaviour you need to start extending the length of time before you reward. If they're interrupting the right behaviour to get the reward, you need to work on your timing and be sure you're only rewarding when they get it right.

A clicker really is the best way, as it doesn't take long for them to learn that they don't get the reward until they hear the click - which is always used to mark the exact moment they are doing what you want. So for toiletting outside, you would only click once they have finished, then reward. The click marks the behaviour, so if they stop pooing before they've finished and run to you for a treat - no click, no reward. A few goes of clicking at the right time - after they've finished - should get them back on track. It's not a quick fix, but it is totally positive and conditions the behaviour, rather than bribing or correcting.

Awks Thu 30-Jan-14 12:10:03

Hello again, long time no speak. Jarvis is 7 months old too and it seems a long time ago since the first few posts, it's lovely catching up with you all in my lunch break.

Poo eating? Yuk that sounds minging but it's pretty common isnt it? No idea how to stop them but pineapple does sound sensible.

Anyones dog do the subservient dribbling? Jarvis does it to dh, not all the time and there is no trigger, sometimes if dh walks in the room and says hello to the dog, he will walk over and dribble wee on his shoes :D Sounds funny but it's driving dh mad. I've googled and cockers are well known for this and sometimes they grow out of it but any hints welcome.

Moose, you are right and your way is much better. Sorry.
I wish we could get clickers to work here.
Meg goes frantic with excitement at the sight or sound, when she's a bit older we will try again.
It is nice that she works for hugs and pats as well as treats though, and very lucky that grooming is a treat- she brings you the brush.

NCISaddict Thu 30-Jan-14 13:28:01

On our 4th thread already, it's the longest I've ever stayed attached to a thread.
As I type I can hear Finn crunching away at a lamb neck in the hall, no doubt he'll leave it somewhere where I tread on it and nearly break my own neck.
We have training tonight, I wonder how it will go as we missed last week due to my night shift. I'm always rather nervous even though the trainers are lovely.

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 13:32:41

Barbarian. Don't apologise. I do understand that not everyone has the time to do it the long-winded way. I don't want anyone to feel bad about the way they're training, Lord knows we give ourselves a hard enough time anyway. Just thought I should explain the difference in the way the two methods work.

I am lucky enough to have a lot of spare time and really enjoy the training part of dog-ownership. Not everyone has that luxury - or passion.

I would be a big fat liar if I told you I've never used short-cuts or negative reinforcement in my training over the years.

If you do want to do clicker training, but Meg can't cope with the sound (very common in BCs by the way) you could try a marker word and see if that's any better. Quite a few people at my club use marker words and I use both for my dogs, as I don't always have clicker to hand.

You clearly have a lovely bond with Meg. It's fantastic that she'll work for hugs and pats.

Hi Awks. My first ever puppy used to wee on greeting as well. She was low in confidence but was also the most dizzy, over-excitable dog we've ever owned. She grew out of it as she got older and relaxed a little.

I have lost all my clickers!! How have I lost all of them? More ordered from Amazon.

All fine here, I expected the puppy to take up all my time this time round, so am more prepared. He's a good little soul. Toilet training has been a doddle for this one, someone said that they either 'get it' or not, I very much think it's true. 9pm til 6am last night, bless him.

Doing lots of small bits of training but not managing to train individually very well, but it seems fine to reinforce what Harry already knows. Lots of self control training. Haven't tried a lead yet but he will be fine, he takes it all in his stride.

Primula cheese spread is my jackpot treat for recall this week smile They both respond to 'whass ziss' (what's this, squeaked!)

Still glad to see DH in the evening though, or the kids back from school to share smile

grooming as a treat sounds lovely, although the amount of fox poo that Harry rolled in this morning, he's not allowed near me for approx 3 months

ps me too, love the training aspect smile

Can you tell I am skimming at present?

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 14:03:35

Needa, I use 'Wassis' as a positive interrupter/attention cue as well. I found I felt less daft saying that then 'watch me'.

Awks Thu 30-Jan-14 15:17:00

Thanks Moose - he is timid in some circs but massively confident in others. Just like the rest of us I guess. Hope he does grow out of it as he's such a little dote.

I use wossis too, he loves the ssssssss sounds :D

NigellasGuest Thu 30-Jan-14 15:44:12

can anyone give me any pointers on how to teach "leave it" please?

at Puppy class the trainer's method involved the puppies straining on the leash to get to a treat and waiting for the leash to go slack, but my pup isn't at all interested in treats at a distance.

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 16:14:04

Nigella, Kikopup's training videos on YouTube and her website, Dogmantics are fantastic.

I use the same method as her to teach all my dogs and as an example, Pip was able to leave things reliably from very young. It's works really quickly.

Your dogs are lucky to have you, Moose! Yes, I do have a marker word- just 'good girl' in a very happy tone of voice which works quite well. I didn't know that about BCs and clickers. I hope she grows out of it. The only thing she will do for a clicker is left and right, I think because that is pretty boring sitting down stuff.
Blooming Meg just took off after a duck on reservoir bank and went swimming!!! It is snowing here. Then she rushed out and hugged me. All her white bits green with goose poo.
Nigella, we taught 'leave' on lead, walking past desirable things (hairbrushes, other puppies, shoes), distracting with treat and rewarding the instant she looked away.

NCISaddict Thu 30-Jan-14 16:52:41

Now for a doggy AIBU... I should go to training class tonight but I don't want to. It's not that I don't like going but it's at 8-9 and I'm knackered, I've just finished a run of night shifts and need more sleep.
Finn has had a good walk and I have paid in advance so they're not losing any money but I feel guilty.
I know what I'm doing with training, he's not my first pup or indeed my first Collie and all previous dogs were well trained, not to competition standards, but good enough to walk and be sociable, come back when called, not jump up, walk at heel and leave things.
Would AIBU to give up classes? If I hit real problems with him that go beyond teenaged tantrums I'll give the trainers a call and book one to one sessions.
Someone tell me I won't have a delinquent dog on my hands by tomorrow who'll end up selling the dog equivalent of crack on street corners because I can't be arsed to go to training?grin

SallyBear Thu 30-Jan-14 17:13:22

NCIS YANBU. We went to one class. Haven't been back, and apart from the poo eating and being distracted by playing with other doggy pals, Toby is absolutely fine and isn't a teenage delinquent. wink

NCISaddict Thu 30-Jan-14 17:18:01

I've done the tiny puppies course, was hoping to make some dog walking friends but I obviously look too scary!
Just can't find the enthusiasm for the next step up course and it really isn't the trainers fault, they're really nice.

Will open a bottle of wine instead smile and hope we don't regress back to poo eating!

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 17:22:53

Barbarian, my dogs just take advantage of the fact I have no life! blush

You can get adjustable clickers that have different sounds, especially designed for more sensitive dogs. I think there are a couple of designs on the market.

NCIS yanbu. You need to think about your needs as well as Finn's - if you run yourself into the ground you won't be able to meet his needs anyway and missing one class isn't going to make that much difference.

I missed a few of ours for various reasons, like you, he's not my first dog, I pretty much know what I'm doing with his training (although I did pick up a couple of useful tips) and I don't want him to be an obedience superstar, just well behaved, responsive and sociable. I used to dread going to be honest, I felt like I was on stage and having to 'perform' the whole time and I'm not very well socialised myself! blush

We have completed the 'courses' now and moved on to the adhoc class, where you can just turn up if/when you want to and pay weekly. I've given it a miss for two weeks, first because of my chickenpox ridden dcs and no babysitter, then because I had a migraine. I will probably go back next week, but I'm thinking a couple of times a month max will probably do us. In our case I do need to keep going because Pip still needs to keep meeting new dogs to help with his socialisation. He's much better, but still has a long way to go before he starts being relaxed when he meets new dogs.

SallyBear Thu 30-Jan-14 17:23:22

Shhhhh!! We are making him paranoid.

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 17:23:55

grin

NCISaddict Thu 30-Jan-14 17:33:24

At least we meet loads of dogs and so far,touch wood, he's as sociable as I want him to be ie will leave other dogs and come with me but is happy to play.
I won't feel guilty then, it's worse than when the children were small and I didn't take them to after school clubs.

Awks Thu 30-Jan-14 17:38:42

Years ago, in the olden days there were no training classes and dogs still managed to get trained ok smile So enjoy your wine and your rest.

basildonbond Thu 30-Jan-14 20:10:09

Just checking in briefly - funeral tomorrow so not really in puppy mode right now ...

NCISaddict Thu 30-Jan-14 20:16:53

Thoughts and prayers with you Basildon, I've been there and its not a nice place. Make sure you look after yourself first. flowers

moosemama Thu 30-Jan-14 20:53:31

Basildon, sending much love and light your way. flowers

Awks Thu 30-Jan-14 20:54:50

Basildon, love to you x

I'll be thinking of you, Basildon x

sweetkitty Thu 30-Jan-14 21:05:29

Hi all I have a 6mo Rhodesian Ridgeback called Nala. January has not been a great month for us, Nala cut her paw deeply just below her dew claw, operation stitches and 2 weeks in a collar/sock and she was getting better, first decent walk off lead after that she took a chunk out a pad on her hind pawhmm back at vets antibiotics but no stitches just to keep it clean and it will heal itself, it looks like it's getting there slowly.

She's in general a good dog, recall is fab, she's so affectionate etc still need to work on the jumping and counter surfing and stealing food.

We've switched from Burns puppy to Millie's Wolfheart and she is loving it, hoping it will put some weight on her.

Anyway away to watch the dog food programme grin

Great to have a new thread! We have a 6 month old english sheepdog who has hit teenage boisterousness just as we were recovering from puppyhood!

With the water spray - we have started using this when minty barks to get attention (obviously not when he barks to be let out or cos his water bowl is empty blush ). At our 9th training class the trainer asked if she could do it - I asked why was it being suggested now rather than weeks ago - she said all three trainers were slightly annoyed with it, that they'd assessed him as not being nervous or anxious and had assessed me as not being an overly precious owner! I'm taking that as a compliment by the way!!

So every time he barked (he barks throughout every class except when actually working/concentrating) she sprayed him using a water bottle. He backed away pretty quickly and was wary of her - and quiet. I am doing it at home - say I'm standing in the kitchen sending a text - minty will bark at me just becuase he wants attention - quick spray of water and he backs off and sulks away. It's working and I think I'm ok with it but not altogether sure I'd be recommending it yet as a training technique! Feels a bit last resort-ish to me.

What d'you think Moose? I was going to ask you your opinion as our resident dog training expert!

By the way it wasn't confrontational with our trainers - sounds a bit as though I was squaring up to them! They are lovely and hugely supportive so I can question why they're doing things without them being defensive!

I also love "wassis" - minty can just about hold his gaze on me when I'm saying this even if smallies walk past which is massive progress in few months!

SallyBear Fri 31-Jan-14 07:52:17

I'd work on the 'good quiet' with a treat rather than a water spray. Toby only barks if he's surprised. We had a dog years ago that would bark if he heard a cat fart two streets away! So with our next dog we rewarded quiet behaviour and she was always quiet. It obviously had its disadvantages because she wouldn't woof if someone rang the doorbell! Toby does bark but only if its a doorbell or someone walking in unexpectedly.

NCISaddict Fri 31-Jan-14 08:16:21

Finn was driving us mad barking at everything, as we live on a main road it was constant. We taught a sharp 'quiet' followed by a 'sit' and treat. So far it's worked really well , he still barks to go out and at the doorbell but not at every other sound.

Yes I think I'm going to start a 'quiet' command as minty has started skulking away from me whenever he sees me with a water glass! I don't want him to start reducing his trust in me to be kind to him.

Kibble - I'm looking for a conversation, on this thread I think, about the best kibble if you want natural as possible but can't manage raw. Was Millie's Wolfheart rated by people? I have to change minty over as I am horrified by the ingredients in his Science Plan kibble - main ingred is maize. Can't go raw (just yet) as DH is not happy with salmonella risk and mess of it and we have no freezer space - but I'm working on him! In the meantime I need to change kibble but only want to change once to a good one - can't afford Lily's Kitchen though looks lovely.

NCISaddict Fri 31-Jan-14 09:11:14

There was some research to say that the poo of dogs fed on kibble has a higher level of salmonella in it than those fed on raw. I'll see if I can find a link to it.
I feed Natural Instinct which is complete raw and there's no mess, not sure I could manage to do carcass raw myself.
There are some grain free kibble manufacturers but I can't remember the name.

moosemama Fri 31-Jan-14 10:29:57

Mint, I'd have to agree with Sally and say it's far better to work on a 'quiet' cue. I'm very surprised trainers would suggest going straight to correction without even attempting to train the behaviour out first.

As you've already discovered, negative correction can cause trust issues, whereas training is a win-win - you get the behaviour you want and he gets rewarded and something new to think about.

I like this YouTube video for teaching it. You teach bark first, then quiet as the paired cue.

Kibble/diet. A manufactured raw, pouch or tray food would do what you want, if dh would go for it, the one NCIS uses is good and I really like the look of Nutriment Wolf Tucker looks good Nature's Menu is popular as well, but have a look on Which Dog Food and see which one you like the look of.

Millie's Wolfheart is a good one. Mine are on Canagan, but it's £57.00 a 12kg bag and that only lasts us just over 3 weeks with two large dogs.

NCISaddict Fri 31-Jan-14 10:43:45

I've just asked Natural Instinct and they confirm that their meat is tested for salmonella amongst other bacteria but you do need a spare freezer tray.smile

NigellasGuest Fri 31-Jan-14 12:12:32

thank you moose for the link to kikopup - she is brilliant! and barbarian that's a good way to teach Leave. Plenty of food for thought.

talking of food, I am now worried about my pup's food! I'm giving him Hills Vet Essentials, which I switched to from wet food (nature diet) on the vet's advice because pup had a slight infection at the side of his mouth. The mouth has since got better and I put it down to the food. However I'm now worried having read what is in kibble!

LadyTurmoil Fri 31-Jan-14 12:16:11

Nutriment and Nature's Menu are good starting points, but if you join Raw Feeding UK FB group, they have a huge file with all the advice you need plus a huge list of suppliers all around the country. Even if you don't decide to go raw, it's a good source of info to consider before making your choice.

sweetkitty Fri 31-Jan-14 13:39:29

Nalas been on Millie's Wolfheart for just over a week is far very impressed I think it's one of the better kibbles and is grain free. I would love to feed raw but she would need a kilo a day jugs and don't have the space for it.

Hello all,

Our lurcher pup Roo is almost 6 months now, she has been with us for 3 weeks.

So far so good! But wonder if we are in "honeymoon stage" and am keeping an eye out for future trouble!

Am not sure we will join puppy classes.

I have read some good books, read up on forums, and try to use "common sense". Wonder if I (she) am missing out though? She meets lots if other dogs on walks, some she plays with. Kids come to our house and she is getting used to that . ( Dss friends). I walk her past the local primary at pick-up time twice a week to teach her not to run up to children/prams. She seems very responsive to my tone, and hates doing something wrong. I mainly do rewards for good behaviour and saying "no" and removing from situation if undesirable behaviour. But is that too simple?

No fiscal, I reckon that you are spot on. I think that if you are willing to invest the time and make the commitment, most positive methods will work. I have two puppies, so I don't know about 'issues' though smile

Good luck, I hope you continue to enjoy Roo.

I feed raw in the main, but both my two much prefer the crunch/challenge of the non minced stuff. I did buy Hector some natural instinct puppy food, which he does eat but it seems no more exciting than a bowl of kibble to them. Give them a chicken wing etc and it's heaven in a bowl smile

That said, have just ordered some Millie's wolfheart, as Taste of the Wild (our kibble 'standby'), although very high quality, does seem to make Harry loose. And, the former is cheaper for excellent quality.

Must admit, I am a bit 'dogged' out today being on my own with the boys all week and trying to manage the puppy and ensure Harry gets my time too, I don't really feel like training etc

Meg is in her crate again.
How long do you crate your dogs for?
She has had a wet hour long walk, training, frozen kongs and antlers but once again she will not settle for two minutes. There is no entirely puppy proof room in the house- if nothing else she will take off the skirting boards. Wiring, furniture, are not safe. I have to work. Once in her crate she seems to chew and doze. She'll get more training and playing today, and another walk but I still feel bad. I didn't expect to have to use the crate this long. Never had one at all with previous BC. Any advice?

SallyBear Fri 31-Jan-14 14:51:41

Barb. I put Toby in the crate when I leave the house. As much for his safety as well as protecting the house. He sleeps in it when DH is working from home as it's in the study. He's quite happy in it. Meg sounds like a lively and bright girl who may benefit from Agility Training to help her focus her mind. Is she old enough for those classes??

sweetkitty Fri 31-Jan-14 15:45:27

Nala is still in her crate as well when we go out, at night, when we are eating it anything to do with food as she's a terrible food thief.

We went to dog training twice, I really didn't like it, 13 pups/dogs nose to tail in a small hall. Nala got sprayed for play barking hmm and the trainer would knee them for jumping hmmhmm didn't like the way they spoke to you like you were a complete idiot the guy said to me "if you tell that fog to sit one more time I'll slap you" ok meant as a joke but still. She wouldn't sit as she was too excited with all the puppies.

Sounds pleasant kitty [sceptical]

The first training group we went to tried to sell me a choke chain, but the one where we did our KC awards practised only force free and positive methods. This was a super experience and I will use this one again for this pup, but do the Bronze award, not start with the puppy classes (will go to the vets for these) There seems to be a lot of negative training out there still doesn't there?

The only thing 'negative', or close to negative was that our trainer showed us the correct use of a slip lead for a gundog, and in particular a breed like a springer that is so 'nose led' (high up the neck). We do use a slip lead, but after hours and hours and hours of ongoing lead work, he doesn't pull, and it is very very easy to slip over his neck when I have a wriggly puppy in my arms smile It's not used to control pulling though, I must emphasise.

sweetkitty Fri 31-Jan-14 16:50:40

We didn't go back funnily enough

NigellasGuest Fri 31-Jan-14 16:59:17

needa will you give Hector a chicken wing, or is he too young?
I've ordered some of the Natures Menu puppy nuggets.

NCISaddict Fri 31-Jan-14 17:09:47

I still crate Finn and will continue to do so as long as he seems happy. We rent so really can't have him chewing things and he seems fine in it. I sometimes give him a bone or his kong but he quite often goes in it just to sleep, never makes a fuss at night ever.
I buy him raw small play bones, turkey backs, lamb necks and beef pipes for when we need him out of the way whilst cooking or with guests who don't want to play endless ball games. He's been fed in it from day one so thinks it's the best place ever!

nigella - already do, he's had one for his tea 3 nights this week.

Thanks everyone, I'm really torn about the feeding issue. I think I'm unearthing deep seated psychological issues here - in that DH is a big meat eater, would have red meat everyday, forget the veg, if he could! And I used to be veggie, now a health conscious meat eater. I plan the family meals so we only have meat once a week, have meat-free Monday every week, several other veggie meals and otherwise chicken/fish. So DH constantly feels deprived, as does DS2 who adores meat- don't understand it myself and I hate the hard chewing aspect of meat and love the softness of a dhal! Part of DHs reluctance to give up freezer space (which is genuinely limited) might be this.

We will work through it gently - always the best approach in my book and I bet minty will enjoy the delights of raw within the year!! I drove past a local provider of raw dog food earlier today so might call in next week to chat - it's a warehouse sort of place!

Going to change kibble immediately though.

Re water spray - the trainer have been trying distraction and really help me control his barking. But I think they thought enoughs enough now and understandably felt it shouldn't need one trainer with him the whole time a trainer was wanting to talk and be heard.

Not getting tea ready with all this MN-ing and it's apple crumble tonight so better get skates on!

A

Applecrumble for tea! How lovely....

Thank you, dog craters, I don't feel so bad now. She is never banged up for more than 2 hours during the day.

I have discovered the perfect dog bride. It is haggis. For a teaspoon full of haggis Meg will put all dds socks in the washing machine. But it is going to be very inconvenient to always have a pocket full of the stuff.

Barbarian - I'm so impressed with loading the washing machine! What advanced training, we have only just managed 'drop' and are delighted with ourselves!

The haggis tip is wonderful as we're going to a delayed burns family lunch tomorrow but are 2men down due to illness so I will doggy-bag up leftover haggis for minty!

I think we've mastered sit todaygrin

I've spent the last five minutes listening to puppies barking on youtube. Pup seems to like it.

Can someone tell me about weinrights? Is it terrible?

Thanks fiscal the crumble was delicious and might have leftovers for supper later!

Like others have said, I wouldn't feel you need to do the dog training - you are doing so many other things for socialisation and education. I went because we were all new dog owners and needed the tips and professional support, and I have learnt loads - but then I was starting right at the bottom of the learning curve as I knew nothing about socialisation, positive training etc so I needed it. You sound like you're doing great without it.

It sounds better than it is because the long ones all hang out so it looks like old men eating spaghetti and she also put in my keys and a ball on a rope.

We have not yet mastered drop. In fact, we have only been house trained two weeks or so.
And we have selective hearing.

But so lovely.

Ahh bless her, good for meg! When I say "we've taught drop" what I meant was that while I was ignoring DS2 and puppy (likely MNing!) DS picked up a handful of treats, Mintys fav toy stood in kitchen throwing the toy. Every time minty brought it back DS2 sort of ignored then when toy was dropped he said "drop" gave and treat and repeated 20 or so times. Job done! When I then said drop to him he did!

So DS 2 is now our chief puppy whisperer and thankfully DS1 wasn't around as he thinks that's his job.

For anyone asking about dog food - try the which dog food website - it is fabulous! Think moose mentioned a while back, worth repeating for new puppies mums, gives really decent easy to read info. Sorry can't do kinky thing.

Ha ha meant linky thing !!

SallyBear Fri 31-Jan-14 22:24:10

Yeah yeah mint. Likely story!

moosemama Fri 31-Jan-14 22:43:45

shock mint! grin

The klinky thing is Which Dog Food

Fiscal - she's gorgeous. Such a pretty face. It sounds to me like you are being very sensible with her and no, there's absolutely no need to go to puppy classes with a 6 month old if you don't want to. As long as you're getting her out and about and making sure she has regular contact with and training around other dogs, people, children etc - which you are, she'll be fine. smile

Pickled well done on the sit. Pip used to run away if I played dogs barking on YouTube, but seems to have got over it now.

Don't know much about Wainwrights, but it should be on the site I've just linked to if you want to check it out. I think I've heard it's ok, but not premium - but I could be confusing it with another brand.

My two have missed their walks today, as dd is so poorly (temp touching 41 all day and refusing to come down with alternate meds) that I didn't want to leave her with anyone and dh was really late home from work and really exhausted. They're not impressed and have been doing an impression on dinosaurs wrestling in the middle of the living room to let us know. hmm Will have to give them a longer walk tomorrow to assuage my guilt.

Oh dear moose that's not great. She must be feeling dreadful. You using a wet facecloth and stripping back the layers? My mum used to say I should put mine in a cool bath if I was really worried but it never seems do-able when they're that poorly. Hope she sleeps.

I'm sure your boys will be fine without their walk today - my DS is off school with throat infection and I've missed two days but done lots of throwing toilet roll inserts into garden - despite them being full of treats he still flings them into the air and gets a good manic play with each one before settling down to open! Rather like a kid before Xmas!

Excuse my typing! -after two broken nights with DS I'm about as far away from kinky as I've ever been!

moosemama Fri 31-Jan-14 23:11:01

Thanks mint. She's in her vest under just a cellular blanket. We've been doing ice lollies and iced drinks all day, but her temp only came down for a very short while after each lot of ice.

We were told not to do baths, tepid sponge/wet facecloths or fans, when ds2 was seriously ill with pneumonia. Apparently it can make things worse, as you cool the outer surface of the skin, which makes the body try to heat it up. What you need is to cool the core temperature. We got through so much ice with ds2 that we ended up having to buy it in from the supermarket to keep up.

It has brought back horrible memories of that time. He was only just 4, I was almost 9 month's pregnant with dd and we nearly lost him. I spent a week sleeping on a z-bed at his side in hospital and got into trouble with my midwife, as dd was breech and they wanted me in for a c-section that week. Didn't have a section in the end anyway and she was born two weeks late!

We think it's probably proper flu. We had a note home from school saying it was doing the rounds the day she went back after chickenpox. hmm

Sounds like you and I are living similar lives at the moment - hope your ds is better really soon.

Thank you for the advice Minty and Moose!

Love the way your DS taught. "Drop" Minty! may try yo get my DC to practice that.

Hope your DC get better soon. I think they say call a doc when temperature over 40, of at least NHS direct . 41 is high, I would call.

Hope poorly DC get well soon!

moosemama Sat 01-Feb-14 11:36:18

Thanks Fiscal. I know dd always runs a very high temp when she's going through the virus crisis, then it breaks and she's better. The amount of times we've rushed to the OOGP and been sent home has taught us to wait a little.

Sure enough, no sleep for dh and I last night, but the fever has broken and she's currently sitting in the rocking chair singing and doing her new sticker book. I am so relieved. Even though I know it's her 'pattern' for this sort of virus, it still scares the proverbial out of me every single time!

New worry this morning. Last night Pip yelled out all of a sudden, then held his back leg up and looked really panicked. (This is the leg he had the knee injury on just before Christmas.) His toes looked scrunched up and leg tight, so I thought it must have been cramp. Massaged it and he went back to sleep. Then he went to get up from sleeping at my feet when we went to bed, screamed and couldn't get up. Can't work out why. Checked both legs and his back and he doesn't seem to be sore anywhere, but he did it twice. Tried to get up when I got off the sofa and couldn't so stayed there, then tried again when dh got up and managed it, but was moving very stiffly on his back end. Was all set to call the vet this morning, but he seems fine again. confused

I have noticed him being awkward getting up a few times over the past week or so and checked him over, but couldn't find anything and he seemed fine once up.

I think the two possibilities are, that it is the leg he injured or it's his back. Being a Lurcher, he has a long back and something about the stiffness of his gait last night made me think it looked more back than legs. Think I will have to book him a vet appointment early next week and get her to take a look at him. Problem being, it seems to be intermittent and even straight afterwards he doesn't have a problem being manipulated or have any areas of heat or painful points, which means she mightn't be able to get to the root of the problem either. confused

Moosemama, there is always something new to worry about, isn't there?

Hope Pip gets well, sounds very much like cramp, but I have to add that I know nothing!

Poor DD and Pip moose, sorry that you are having such a run of bad luck.

I know what you mean about Pip. Occasionally, Hector's back leg will spasm when he's been out and about in the garden for a period and he will struggle to settle as it juts out without his control, just for a few minutes or so. The vets had a look and doesn't think it's anything, but, apparently, their neurological pathways are not fully developed when young, so he couldn't say for absolute certain. I am sure he's fine (as does the vet), but it niggles me.

May I ask your advise re teaching 'down'? You know I love my clicker training. I have decided to concentrate on the 'self control' cues, so wait, sit, leave it etc. He's fab at leave it and will wait until I cue him to eat a treat.

The kikopup videos (and others) use the treat as a lure, but that's confusing him, he thinks he should show restraint. He also doesn't 'slide' into the down position in the way Harry just 'got'.

I am considering just rewarding/clickering the position whenever I see him do it naturally, then adding the verbal cue. Would that work? I don't expect immediate results.

oh - and took Harry for a long walk by myself this morning, and didn't have to take the puppy. We had a fab time, walking swifty and interacting a lot, it's hard carrying the puppy to spend that time.

moosemama Sat 01-Feb-14 15:14:08

Hi needa, I am thinking I must have been very bad in a former life to have deserved the past few months! grin

Right, for the down, yes - capturing behaviours is often seen as much stronger than luring. So it would definitely work, but as you've predicted, may take a bit longer to become concrete (although not necessarily, as some dogs get the 'aha' moment much quicker that way).

I remember the days of having to carry Pip and walk Lurcherboy at the same time - especially with 3 dcs in tow. It was ...interesting, especially as Pip was over 16 weeks old before he was allowed down and by that time it was like carrying an elephant he'd grown so much! I reckon my arms grew at least 3" over that time.

I can only take mine separately at weekends really. Pip would scream the place down if I took Lurcherboy without him, leaving him totally alone and although I think Lurcherboy would probably be fine - he was when we went to puppy classes - I worry about starting his SA off again if I do it too often.

basildonbond Sat 01-Feb-14 21:12:47

Trying to get back to some sort of normality now - funeral went as well as these things can do and I think we did things the way my mum would have wanted. Masses of people turned up, which helped my dad I think

Dh was in when the puppy day care man came to pick up Fitz and said that Fitz was delighted to see him - went all wiggly and didn't give dh a backwards glance when they left so I feel much better about having left him - there's three other puppies there plus a (very tolerant) 9 year old lab and Fitz obviously has a whale of a time

I am struggling with mud at the moment - the common is looking like a WWI trench and the mud seems to be stickier than normal - Fitz hasn't done his normal amazing self-cleaning trick today and his tummy and legs are still filthy ..

He's been fine on all his walks since the scary walk but is still quite wary of the bigger road at the end of our street - still anxious when cars went by but could be distracted by treats today so fingers crossed he won't be a scaredy-dog for ever

My challenge for this week is to get him to stay out of the kitchen and stop jumping up at the worktops - any tips? We have a large open-plan kitchen/living room with a breakfast bar and step up to the area with cooker, sink etc the gap between the bar and wall is too wide for a baby gate and we're in and out all the time when getting meals ready so I was hoping to get Fitz to stay behind an invisible barrier - humph ... he can rollover, touch with his nose, target with his feet, twist & spin, shake a paw, jump over my legs, do a figure of 8 and a few more things .. He got all of those almost instantly - but can he grasp the concept of staying out of the kitchen??? Hah! Any tips v gratefully received smile

moosemama Sat 01-Feb-14 21:33:00

Hi basil, glad things went as well as can be expected and Fitz was clearly happy with his daycare arrangements.

I'm only putting my head around the door as after a sleepless night with dd last night, I have now come down with the same virus. hmm Hope the following will help. Sounds like Fitz is doing so well, invisible barrier training should be a cinch.

Kikopup invisible barriers 1 and part 2

<<caveat: I haven't had chance to watch them, but remembered seeing them on the list and I trust Kikopup's training>>

Racerider Sat 01-Feb-14 22:10:51

Basil- not sure if this is of interest Depends on your layout /gap size, but we are quite open plan and bought a retractable pet barrier to keep puppy out of carpeted living area. Our gap is 170 cm wide. It's better than a gate as when not needed it rolls away and is hardly noticeable.

DragonPaws Sun 02-Feb-14 12:24:08

Hi Can I join this thread?
I have a 9 week old puppy who is absolutely gorgeous but we are having one problem. Every time he gets put in his cage he poos and then tramples in it and generally gets covered. We can put him in his cage just after he has been to the loo or just for 10 minutes and he will still go and get covered. Any tips?

SallyBear Sun 02-Feb-14 12:58:03

How big is the crate?? If its large for him to grow into then try and minimise the size.

I've realised I've been quiet
I've been working on getting him to leave things alone including trouser bottoms. Most of the time he'll let go and then look at me as if to say where my treat then. Sometimes I just praise him instead. He still often reattaches but I've been leaving him sat for longer and sometimes he seems to forget what he was doing so I think we'll get there. Thanks for the tips
He went for his first walk yesterday. He walked for fifteen minutes and then went in a pouch sling I have so that Roo and the children could get a decent walk. He was well behaved and walked nicely on his lead and then sat nicely in the sling nosying at the world around him.
Dh was on puppy duty last night as I went out. I reviewed a text half way through the evening saying
'Your headphones died a doggy death, Griff says he's sorry'
First real puppy casualty, they were only those white apple ones so I'm not too worried.

Oh dear Jayne, what breed is Roo btw? Having the same issue with the springer that needs 2 plus hours a day and a puppy that doesn't!

Dragon - how big is the crate, as Sally says. Ideally, there should be only enough room for his bed and possibly some water. The idea being, that dogs don't like to soil their own bedding area, therefore speeding up the toilet training process. Maybe section off the crate if required? Have you made the crate an exciting and positive place to be? Feed in there, toys in there, treat for going in etc etc?

Thanks moose for the down advice. It's hard capturing the behaviour as he doesn't exhibit it very often, but it's not essential either for the time being either.

Basildon - I didn't pass on my good wishes, I hope that you are ok. Can you teach Fitz to settle on a mat? Kikopup has a couple of videos I think, or if it's not her, then there's definitely some on there, clicker training related.

Harry has slashed his paw so badly that the padding oozed out this morning. Another operation and a £300 bill. He was walking in some woods with DH and came out of a bush, bleeding profusely. Vet said a classic glass slash. We pick him up later. That bloody dog has cost me a fortune, this must be the 5 or 6th thing to happen!! The receptionist at the emergency vet just laughed when she asked his breed and heard Springer.

Bloody dogs!!

NigellasGuest Sun 02-Feb-14 14:54:39

needa - poor Harry and how dreadful that people chuck glass objects into bushes! leaving you to pick up the vet bill! I hope Harry wasn't too hurt or upset? sounds like he's been there before....

Could someone advise me about treats for a puppy when you are raw feeding? Presumably all treats have to be raw as well?

He has been there before many times. Thorn in eyeball at 4 months, resulting in huge claim and many many trips to specialist. Puppy tumour at 8 months resulting in an operation. Severe vomiting at 10 months. Various thorns, now another operation. Not sure why we got another!!

I feed cooked chicken, cooked liver or cheese for treats, so natural but not raw iyswim? Plus primula cheese spread as a jackpot treat - not at all natural or raw!

Just realised Harry has lost nearly 3/4 of a kilo in weight, judging by the last weigh in and today, no wonder he looks so thin, poor love

SallyBear Sun 02-Feb-14 15:31:16

Toby ate half a punnet of grapes. Threw up, and seems fine but I'm mindful of kidney issues associated with grapes and raisins. confused

DragonPaws Sun 02-Feb-14 15:44:01

Thanks, there is a lot of room in the crate, mainly as he is so tiny. Will try sectioning a bit off.

NigellasGuest Sun 02-Feb-14 16:38:51

crikey, needa, he's been in the wars! and you too I bet - with the worry and bills!

so I don't need to panic about what I've read re. non-raw food slowing the raw food's journey through digestion and the problems that might cause?

One more question if anyone could help... pup is doing really well but annoyingly gets over-excited when the lead goes on, and bites my hand/arm which is getting painful. then starts rolling onto his back while I'm still trying to get the lead on, carrrying on sinking his teeth into my hand as I try to clip it on. I'm not sure how to train him out of this. He is often fine when the lead goes on - it's only when he's just woken up and is full of beans.

moosemama Sun 02-Feb-14 17:45:50

Sorry to hear about Harry, poor boy.

We've had a similar year as you vet-bill wise. Between three different dogs we've spent just over £5,000 at the vets in the past 10 months - this was after we'd cancelled their insurance too! shock They are now both fully insured, which is good, as Pip is shaping up to be a very expensive boy veterinary-wise.

Sally, with that many grapes I would be considering a vet visit.

DragonPaws, I second blocking of a section of the crate.

Nigella, it's mainly kibble that slows the gut, as it expands in the digestive system. Training treats aren't eaten in the same quantity either so should be fine. I use cooked chicken, dried liver, liver or sardine cake, cubes of cheese - and primula or pouches or fish4dogs mousse for jackpot rewards.

Re excitability around the lead. Kikopup has some videos around capturing calm and one on making your dog enjoy being caught, both of which might help.

Sorry I've been awol today. I have caught dd's fluey bug and it's truly evil. Been in bed all day, but just had to get up to sit with dd while dh went to fetch the boys from their grandma's house. Going back to bed now.

sweetkitty Sun 02-Feb-14 21:32:09

Needa - I feel you pain we've had 2 glass injuries in January, first one deep cut above dew claw, op to stitch it up £260 (excess of £105) second 2 weeks later took a chunk out her pad £50 for antibiotics can't stitch it.

Idiots and glass hmmhmmhmmhmm

Moosemama - hope your feeling better

Sallybear - hope Toby's ok

Thank you for your good wishes, Harry is being very chilled at the minute, bit morose, but ok. After a week of no exercise, I am not so sure smile

moose, how do you feel today?

*Sallybear *- hope Toby is ok?

Thanks Kitty, bloody glass. I won't mention the Dpony, who puts anything that we spend on the dogs into small change (broken elbow, big bill). Shame, as that route is a lovely route too.

moose - I really need some advice please!! Hector has started growling and I am not sure how to handle it as Harry has never done this. The first time was last night, he growled to warn me, but I had picked him up when he was sleepy. I had to pick him up, to go home from DSIL's, and collect Harry from the vet. I am aware he was just cross at being disturbed, if we had been at home I would have left him be to settle, so I ignored.

Today, at the vet to have his last injection. He let the vet examine him all over, weigh him, ears, eyes, belly etc. Again, he wanted to settle to go to sleep then, he was warm and cuddling me. This time, he growled twice, then snapped at the vet. The vet ruled out any medical issues and suggested crating him if he did this at home or at least ignoring him/not give attention. I understand that he is communicating his displeasure, but twice in 24 hours and I really don't want this to escalate? He's super, but highly intelligent and will be more challenging than Harry.

Do I 'manage' this, or use positive reinforcement in some way? He has to be handled on occasion/emergency. Also, two new environments and maybe overstimulated?

Help!!

NigellasGuest Mon 03-Feb-14 12:16:30

moose thanks for the info re. kibble in the gut - I won't worry too much about training treats then.
I will watch with interest on your reply to needa as my pup also growls if moved when sleeping. I know the saying "let sleeping dogs lie" but sometimes it has to be done.

Moose, I hope you are all well again soon, inc Pip's leg.
Sallybear, Meg needs to be older for agility because of impact on growing joints. Am looking into pre-agility but it might be no more than she gets in the forest here.

Antlers- a very large chunk (thumbsize) is suddenly missing from Meg's. I am sure she has swallowed it. She seems okay but should we be panicking?

SallyBear Mon 03-Feb-14 14:03:52

Toby seems in fine fettle today. I think that because he'd chomped the grapes and then about a hour later dd dropped a frankfurter which he snaffled it, that was what made him sick. Thank goodness! If he'd not eaten the hotdog and then been sick, I'm sure that we would be dealing with a sick puppy by now.

Needa - I'm sure Moose will be here later with some sound advice on the growling but maybe our experience will help in the meantime. We have to move minty when he's sleeping sometimes as his bed is in the kitchen in front of the drawers which houses the casserole dishes & mixing bowls! Really awkward but small kitchen and all that. I always grab few treats which are kept in kitchen cupboard nearby and lure him with those - he is so food orientated, he will always rouse his weary bones for treats! Because this has gone on for him every day several times, he is used to being disturbed frequently!

Would it be an idea to practice this with treats even if you don't need to disturb him, just so he gets used to it needing to be done sometimes and it being a pleasurable time!

Hope your poorly people are all better moose? I thought we were here - all ready for school run/dog walk this morning when DS2 flaked out in tears, too tired to move. Oh dear, more reliance on grandparents today as I had work meetings booked! I think ours was a virus so recovery can go up and down.

SallyBear Mon 03-Feb-14 17:47:25

Moose is in bed poorly. She's caught her DD's virus.

Re. Growling. We had a large roti cross who used to growl if he was tired. Very intimidating. I would definitely nip this in the bud now. I'd get him used to being handled while lying in his bed, just stroking and talking to him. I think that giving him a treat is rewarding bad behaviour for growling, so I'd work on getting him used to being disturbed / but gently. As for picking Hector up when he's asleep, I think that you'd probably caught him by surprise. So I'd work on a way to alert him that you're going to disturb him.

Hope that helps.

Meg growled over food bowl a couple of months ago- we (I) fed her for a few days in very small amounts so she learnt to associate having her bowl picked up with good things. This worked 100%. Perhaps you could wake from sleeping with a treat before he gets growly, so he learns to associate being woken with good things.

NigellasGuest Tue 04-Feb-14 20:55:54

started raw feeding with Natures Menu puppy nuggets today. I don't know if it's my imagination but pup seems calmer and slightly less bitey! Can raw feeding do this? <hopeful>

I've heard that raw feeding can have that effect - I'd be really interested to hear if it lasts Nigella as I'm thinking of going down this route myself. What are the puppy nuggets like? Chunks of meat? I was thinking of going for one of the raw ready made up minces to start with.

thinkingaboutfostering Tue 04-Feb-14 22:45:04

Hi just dropping in for some lead/ harness advice. Luna is now 12 weeks old and is getting much more comfortable on the lead. I bought a car/ training harness for her when she was 8 weeks old which is great in the car. She will soon be outgrowing it however and I'm looking into my options. She had been pretty good on the lead so far and is only pulley a couple of times when she gets excited. Have seen the perfect fit harnesses with the front ring and like the look of them but not sure if this might be going a bit OTT for her. I think I am right in thinking people on here have them so was hoping for a bit of advice on how effective they are/ what your reasoning behind having them was/is.

SallyBear Wed 05-Feb-14 06:59:10

I think that harnesses depend on the breed of dog. I have a car harness that you can attach a lead to. Which works fine, but tbh we have always used a traditional lead and collar with a ton of snacks to promote good lead walking!

picnicinthewoods Wed 05-Feb-14 13:17:41

We use harness with Legend (GR 7 months). Its been great for us. He walks pretty well on the lead with it, but I practise a fair bit with treats. I just prefer it that's all, I don't like the thought of him ever pulling on a collar & I find I have more control over him in that I can more easily grab the harness if I need to!

basildonbond Thu 06-Feb-14 14:42:06

I have a Houdini pup ... Fitz has worked out how to get out of his car harness angry - I watched him in the rear view mirror today and basically he hunches down and back and manages to wiggle it over his head - he then looks enormously pleased with himself ...

Any recommendations for reasonably cheap but effective harness? I don't want to spend £££ as we're getting a new car soon - it will be an estate so he will have a crate in the back

basildonbond Thu 06-Feb-14 14:42:30

btw - I hope you're feeling better moose

basildonbond Thu 06-Feb-14 14:45:11

oh and Fitz has gone off his kibble ... pah ...

there's still half a huge bag of it left ... he's just taking a bit of it in his mouth, sort of swilling it around then spitting it out ...

he did eat some when it was mixed in with wet food and he couldn't lick round every single bit

luckily the cat adores it - every time I feed Fitz I have to fend off marauding feline

do I keep persevering or give up and try another brand?

SallyBear Thu 06-Feb-14 18:08:33

Can you cook some minced beef or lamb with some veg and just add a couple of spoonfuls into his kibble?

NigellasGuest Thu 06-Feb-14 19:08:27

mint - early days but he's still slightly calmer. I've been giving him the raw food since Tuesday. This may be a coincidence, but yesterday morning and this morning he slept through from 10.30pm til 7.30am. In other words, since he has been on the raw.

The "nuggets" look like lumps of ground up meat (which is what they are)! They are hard,obviously as they are frozen. As they defrost they become gradually more sloppy and it becomes harder to distinguish one nugget from the next - not that that is a problem.

NigellasGuest Thu 06-Feb-14 19:09:54

ps. he eats them when they are barely defrosted (I guess it feels nice as he's teething) so they are still intact nuggets. He likes them fully defrosted just the same though.

basildonbond Thu 06-Feb-14 21:55:22

Lifelong veggie (hence the kibble ... Plus pouches)

I am sorry, I don't use a harness so no advice there.

Perhaps add some stock or rice etc to the food basildon/ Just to see if that perks him up? Otherwise, some of the companies will send you a free sample or small bag of their kibble to try. We've just changed to Millie's Wolfheart (kibble am and raw pm), and they wolf that down.

Struggling a bit with keeping an active springer entertained until next Wednesday. It's so wet too, if it were summer I could probably let him walk out a bit as the dressing is so large and padded but no chance.

Feeling a bit house bound sad

NigellasGuest Fri 07-Feb-14 09:51:54

needa is it ok to do kibble am and raw pm then? sorry to harp on about this issue, i'm just worried about doing it right!

NCISaddict Fri 07-Feb-14 10:26:26

I think the idea is to leave at least 8 hours between kibble and raw and to try and make sure that the kibble is grain free as this can cause problems.

Not an expert although I do feed my puppy raw and have really noticed the difference in his poo as opposed to my memory of my previous pups although that is purely anecdotal and I realise that it's not for everyone.

I am an experiment of one, but I have always fed both and both dogs are fine. I know that you shouldn't feed both due to the different digestion rates for kibble and raw but I can't quite get my head round this tbh.

I'm really interested in the effects of raw feeding and hear no negative effects at all. It all seems positive.

How are all the teenagers getting on? I have really noticed minty calming down at home in the last 2-3 weeks, since he turned 6 months. He's not grabbing clothes, leaping up at our backs as we walk away from him, not grabbing ends of dressing gowns or tea-towels anymore. Lovely home life is restored and I am much happier - I just don't get those feelings of despair and "WTF have I done?" anymore.

On the other hand he is MUCH worse out and about - really pulling on lead so I have hip ache and really choosy about when he comes back to me if there are other dogs to play with, so my walks are a bit less blissful than they were. Roll on adulthood!

NCISaddict Fri 07-Feb-14 14:40:10

We're doing ok, Finn is six months old now and pretty good, very little jumping up and gets down the moment you say 'off', no nipping at all and he's really calm most of the time. Recall is good on walks but not in the house so much, it's as if he knows he's safe in the house and we can't leave him smile whereas on walks we might go without him.
The only problem we have is pulling on the lead, he seems unable to focus, totally uninterested in treats etc. Most of his walks are off lead but I take him out once a day for a lead walk and it's really hard work.
He's raw fed (on a complete food not DIY) and I've had no problems with him in that respect, I wish I'd known about it with my previous dog.

basildonbond Fri 07-Feb-14 15:11:52

Fitz has definitely hit teenagerdom - he's never been much of a chewer so I can leave him for a couple of hours feeling confident that I won't come back to a wrecked house. He's stopped jumping up on the sofa and has never jumped up much to people so that's all good - however he has started jumping up at the kitchen counter trying to steal food. He's become quite selective about training - he's not keen on doing anything he perceives as boring so pretends he doesn't know what I'm on about if I try to practise down stays but he'll happily do fun tricks until the cows come home (or treats run out ...)

But it's when we're out that I'm starting to tear my hair out - recall is 100% at home and at training class and 100% outside as long as there's no other dogs around, however today he got it into his head that he wanted to play with a JRT who really wasn't interested - Fitz was bouncing around play bowing like crazy but the other dog would only occasionally react and tell him to get lost - unfortunately Fitz completely misread this and thought the JRT was play-chasing so was obviously thinking 'game on'

When the other dog left the field Fitz went chasing off after him - I got him back but then 2 mins later even though they'd gone round a corner so he couldn't see him any more he went haring off after him again - he is utterly oblivious to even the most tempting food treat at this point

But then I have days like yesterday when he recalled beautifully from playing with other puppies and I was looking like I had the best trained pup in the park .. So I never know which side of him is going to surface when we go out - bit stressful

Plus he's suddenly started pulling and pulling on the lead - and again I can be waving chicken or hot dog at him and he's not interested sad

haggisaggis Fri 07-Feb-14 15:34:40

I'm going to join back in now as plaster is off ankle and I'm back to walking again (though the family don't trust me to walk over the golf course by myself yet!)
Angus is now 5 1/2 months - and because I was out of action not a lot of recall / lead training has been done. Went to puppy classes for the first time this week - Angus loved it - all these puppies to play with! I found it a bit humiliating - but it will get better! He walks really well on the lead for me if there are no distractions if I have treats - which is good as I can't walk fast and can't handle pulling. Will also recall fine at home - just when there are other distractions he's a nightmare! I have to say that regarding feeding we went the other way and he's now on kibble. dh just couldn't cope with raw feeding when he had to do it - and Angus had gone off the chicken mince and tripe too.

sweetkitty Fri 07-Feb-14 16:45:14

Nalas paw is now healing nicely do we are back to nice long walks (well as long as you can with a large breed puppy). Her recall is good she doesn't like to be too far away from me so will go after another dog but if it's too far turn and come back.

She's doing great on the Millie's Wolfheart wolfs it down, poos are good on it too she's still on the skinny side though. The owner at Millie's was great he said the thing about raw and mixed has never been proven and it's like us eating a mixed meal of veggies, carbs and meat, it all gets digested at different rates.

Nalas main problem is jumping, she jumps up at the counter, jumps on us and will jump at anyone she mets outside hmm which makes me very anxious, I'm never worried about her meeting another dog, she always just wants to play and if the other dog makes it clear it doesn't want to play she'll leave it be but then she goes to meet the owner and inevitably jumps up on them and of course I don't want this as she's always muddy and she's a big dog. Am following kikopups advice on jumping just now.

There's a new dog training class opening 5 mins from us, there's nothing else for miles around so I might check it out.

Really lovely to hear about the others.

Sounds like few of us have this pulling on lead problem. I have a feeling I'm going to need to see a Physio soon but fear they'll say I need to stop your dog pulling to really treat the problem.

Any ideas of when teenage dogs settle with this?

NCISaddict Sat 08-Feb-14 08:29:45

Finn stole DS's leftover pizza from the table this morning, an hour later huge slimy horrible poos. Thank goodness he asks to go out now, I'd forgotten what horrible poos they can do when they've eaten something that doesn't suit them blush tmi.

In the last week I have three times managed to write long posts and delete them. I'm exhausted as dh has been away so have seemed to have spent my life with children finishing at different school times and doing pick ups.
So just checking and saying hi and will ask all my questions in separate posts I don't lose them (that just corrected to desperate...apt?)

Needastrongone - Roos is a gsdx (we think with some collie as she has collie ears) she's big so needs a decent walk but is also laid back and starting to feel her age, she's about 9.

Lead wise we've been using a harness. The type with a loop on the back and padding around the legs. Is this ok? I use a normal lead when out for walks and he walks fairly well, pulling a bit but is easy to walk with. We put him on an extending lead when he goes out in the garden to toilet (on his collar) as he's still small enough to get under the shed and other awkward things. We're in rented so not much we can do. When he's bigger it won't be such a problem and I am determined to get him recall perfect.

None of the books I have read have had decent advice on stuff like food and leads. I have to admit I feel rather overwhelmed by the food issue (raw? Kibble? Fresh?). I went on that site and it recommended the same food for both Griff and Roo and I thought yay except I can't buy it anywhere near. It's getting a balance between quality and cost I'm struggling with.

Chews- I was desperately waiting for him to be old enough to have rawhide. I did some research to find out what age is ok and it turns out they're not good at all. Kongs last ten minutes at the most and that's only if they have frozen yoghurt in them. Nylabones are ignored. Soft toys are shredded. My coffee table seems most popular and I'm not so happy with that. Help

NCISaddict Sat 08-Feb-14 11:39:29

Split antlers for the chewing? Our soft toys are disemboweled and I give him cardboard boxes to shred which makes a mess but thats life atm.
He's also crated when we're out and he's not supervised. Ended up putting a little very strong chilli sauce on the carpet at the bottom of the stairs as nothing else worked and we're in rented too so destroying stiff is not an option. He hasn't touched it since, one sniff, not even a taste, was enough.
I also put him on the lead for business trips to the garden as the fence has blown down and LL is slow at repairing to say the least.

Yes our living room is covered in bits of shredded card,
Will try split antlers. I would have thought they would splinter but obviously not

NCISaddict Sat 08-Feb-14 12:00:41

Mine has had his split antler wince he was 8 weeks and although it is getting smaller it hasn't splintered even when the visiting adult dogs had a go at it.

racerider Sat 08-Feb-14 13:31:19

NCI I also have a problem with the bottom carpeted step but does chili sauce stain ?

Any tips for when puppy attacks shoes while we are wearing them and trouser legs ? Am trying to walk in garden with her for her to wee and she's biting our shoes and sometimes through jeans to legs.

NCISaddict Sat 08-Feb-14 13:48:51

We put such a tiny drop on a couple of threads so haven't noticed a stain. With regard to the biting shoes I either yelped , really really high pitched as if you're in pain and also really concentrated on the leave command.

Pufflemum Sat 08-Feb-14 13:54:10

Hi everyone, puffledog is doing well, we have had her three weeks now and I can't remember life without her. I do have a really silly question though. Is it right that she is obsessed with food? We feed her the recommended daily amount of dry food (origen), spaced out over 4 meals in a day. But whenever I go in the kitchen she is looking for food. If anyone eats she goes wild trying to get a helping. Are dogs just all greedy? Or should I be feeding her more? She is gaining weight and the vet says she is perfectly healthy, but I feel so mean.

reikizen Sat 08-Feb-14 15:12:50

I would welcome advice on how to stop my 4 month old lab chasing our ducks in the garden! She responds very well to food treats but I just can't think what command to give for her to make the connection not to chase them!

NCISaddict Sat 08-Feb-14 15:33:04

I use the 'leave' command to stop my Border Collie from chasing joggers or bikes, perhaps that would work?

Nice pizza stealing Finn smile Glad he's ok.

NCI - You will need a very strong response for this one I feel. I can get Harry to leave ducks, but squirrels are 50/50! Perhaps try a 'positive interuptor' if poss? A very high pitched 'what's this?' and you jumping around and being very exciting with a toy or high value treat?' Use the command only for this instance? It's her absolute instinct though to chase them. Or, perhaps better, find the distance that is the closest that she will be to them without chasing, click and treat, then gradually move the distance closer. It does get easier, Harry is very used to ponies and livestock as we have the pony on a working farm. The constant exposure to them means he rarely even looks up now. This has has additional benefits, as we can now walk through a field of cows, and he will chase the rabbits!

puffle - Hector is similar if that helps? I feed three times a day at 11 weeks with the caveat that I do a lot of training with treats/food and they also have a kong. Both dogs are very food orientated but very slim, they seem to eat constantly. The feeding is just a guide, I never weigh ours out, just know the dogs are the right shape (slim) and have bags of energy. In fact, I did weigh it the other day, and was surprised that I fed quite a bit less than recommended. I am sure though that some dogs will need more though so don't worry.

Hector is doing great at 11 weeks, a few short lead walks to get him used to the sensation, feeding tons and tons of treats. He will clicker train all day, as will Harry.

Still no walking for Harry, which is driving me insane, and another week to go, he's doing fine, I am going insane!! Trying to keep his dressing dry even for a toilet break in this weather is really hard. Poo bags are my friend.

Jayne, DH works away a lot too, I know that it's very hard, I am exhausted when he comes back.

basildonbond Sat 08-Feb-14 16:49:46

Hallelujah! Have just dodged the deluge and taken Fitz out for a walk in his new harness and double-ended lead - and HE DIDN'T (COULDN'T) PULL grin - I feel like doing a happy little dance

We will carry on working on loose lead walking at home and in training classes and when he's not too excited but at least it means that pulling isn't being constantly reinforced (and my shoulder stays in its socket)...

Puffle - what breed is pufflepup? Some breeds are more food oriented than others - the labs we had as children never stopped thinking about food for one single second - they were perfectly well fed but would have eaten themselves into morbid obesity given half a chance!

NigellasGuest Sat 08-Feb-14 17:43:31

thank you all for the input re. raw / kibble etc. etc.
I've also found some advice on the cockers online website. There's just no hard and fast rule and it's about finding the right thing that works for you really isn't it!

as i type, he is tackling his first chicken wing.

proud of my pup - he now rings a bell to go out to wee/poo!

BB - was Fitz on a normal collar and lead before the harness or a halti type? We went from a collar & lead to a harness and D ring double lead up to a gentle leader which is like a halti. Nothing seems to reduce pulling but it's ages since I used the harness so I might go back to that.

No word of Moose? Not like her to be absent so long, I hope she's not really poorly with that virus.

Meant to say Nigella - the bell sounds great! How on earth did you train that behaviour?!! We let minty out in the garden then get on with our own jobs, TV, whatever but always close the back door and he leaps up at door to be let back in - would much prefer a bell as our back door is black, scratched and used to be smart white paint!

I would love to know about the bell ringing. Dh is impressed too. How old is he Nigella?

NigellasGuest Sun 09-Feb-14 08:38:49

Jayne he's 4 and a half months. mint these particular ones are designed for indoors to be let outdoors as they are on (tough) ribbon and also I don't know if the bells would rust. But I'm sure you could find some that are outdoor proof - presumably any bell would do, really!
The bells came with "instructions" - I started to read with interest, but all they said was to say "outside, ring your bells!" to the dog and encourage him to bash the bells with his paws, or ring them yourself, and then take him straight outside to toilet. dont reward for ringing the bells as he has to associate them with toileting.
DH was very very hmm but he's pretty impressed now! mint surely it would be easy for Minty - just put the bells where he jumps up, so he hits them by default? not quite the same but might save your door?!

www.dougalsden.co.uk/dogs/poochie-bells/poochie-bells.html

SallyBear Sun 09-Feb-14 09:47:48

We've not seen Moose on SN Chat for a week. Sending her healing thoughts as I don't think she's been feeling well at all.

Toby (7month old Lab) thinks he's a panda. I keep finding him casually munching on my bamboo bush. Silly puppy.

basildonbond Sun 09-Feb-14 09:55:16

Mint - he was on a normal collar and lead and walking beautifully to heel until about 10 days ago - dh took him out for a few walks and he's not as patient as me (and thinks all this positive reward training malarkey is a bit nonsensical ...) so wasn't prepared to wait or go in the opposite direction if he started pulling, so basically Fitz had a few walks where pulling really hard got him to the park faster (in his mind ...). I wanted to nip it in the bud as soon as possible as I know how difficult it is to eradicate once the habit's been reinforced

Nigella - those bells look great, and clever pup - Fitz has learned to do one low 'woof' when he wants to go out. It's amazing how quickly they develop - it was really only a few weeks ago that we were having to watch him all the time for signs that he needed to go but it feels like he's been reliably house-trained now for months!

Moose - if you're online, I hope you're feeling better

basildonbond Sun 09-Feb-14 09:56:44

Is bamboo safe for puppies to eat sally? At least it's better than poo grin

moose Are you ok? Hope you are, you are so lovely, I am bit worried about you. x

NigellasGuest Sun 09-Feb-14 11:10:13

same here, moose get well soon.

nigella - I like the bell trick, I am clicker training Harry to put his paw on a box, which I will transfer to specific toys and 'name them'. occupies some time while house bound!!

NigellasGuest Sun 09-Feb-14 11:26:07

a bit house bound here too, although of course Herts is not in any trouble compared with other counties.....

yesterday I took pup out into woods, bracken etc. Had a great walk off lead with him keeping an eye on where I was, despite me walking in different directions and being unpredictable. Recall was good, I put him on and off lead a few times so as not to associate lead going on with end of walk.

Then we got into the big field, the wind was really picking up, and he decided to make an idiot of me - ran miles off and just sat there looking at me from afar. Then charged at me a couple of times, veering away at the last minute the little shit

any ideas anyone how to nip this in the bud? I want to take him out again soon but can't have him making such an idiot of me - he's obviously pushing the boundaries. I can't be sure he won't do that again... HELP!

TheBookThief Sun 09-Feb-14 11:57:04

uuurrrggghhhh, please tell me I am not the only 1 loathing the whole house training thing in this weather sad (I live in south west just to qualify that!)

Last week it was pretty much impossible to take her outside at all on several days and although its been much better for the past few days, its very often absolutely wild and so we don't go out.

Its a bit depressing because I know that any toileting on a pad in the house just reinforces the behaviour but I do feel a bit stuck and wondered what other people were doing?

I did try a few times when it was a bit less wild but she still loathed it and I didn't want to completely put her off leaving the house sad

She's 9 weeks so we should be going out A LOT!!

I am trying to console myself with the fact that although its not ideal, given the reality of the situation and the fact that many many dogs (inc our last one) are partially or fully trained onto paper and still manage to be completely house trained its not the end of the world hmm

TheBookThief Sun 09-Feb-14 11:59:26

very impressed with the bell thing Nigella I will file that away for when we've got more than 10 seconds to get outside grin

NigellasGuest Sun 09-Feb-14 12:19:31

URGENThe just got a bit of toast with NUTELLA on - DD left on floor - how worried should i be???

NigellasGuest Sun 09-Feb-14 12:24:30

oh please ignore me, i always post first and think after. I have researched, and nutella doesn't contain much choc. and he only got a smidge on some toast blush

sweetkitty Sun 09-Feb-14 13:07:42

Windy rainy walk for us today not that she minded much as her best friend was there to play with, they found a deers leg and ran off with it but I managed to get her to drop it (eventually).

nigella - you could try running away in the other direction, using a high pitched voice, waving a toy/treat looking like an idiot In other words, you are the most exciting thing to your dog. He should be curious enough to follow you, treat profusely, do not tell him off etc.

I have heard that if you sit down and wait, that will gain their curiosity, but I know this wouldn't work with Harry.

Harry often stops at the end of the walk, as he knows it's over and will not come to the car, although he doesn't run off. I just calmly walk over, treat, praise and clip on the lead, bundle him in the car.

NigellasGuest Sun 09-Feb-14 16:41:53

thank you needa! Will try the running away, looking like an idiot exciting, etc.

it's one of those days - more advice needed - pup's tongue is noticeably red! could it be an allergic reaction to that nutella? confused

i've been googling and the only suggestion is heatstroke. No chance of that! Iv'e been washing the sides of his mouth with hibiscrub as suggested by vet (slight lip fold infection) - if some got on his tongue could it make it red??

SallyBear Sun 09-Feb-14 20:32:07

Heard from moose. She's been really unwell. Proper nasty bedridden, unable to eat, walk type flu. hmmhmmhmmhmm
Get well soon!

Thanks Sally for letting us know about Moose.

Really sorry to hear that Moose -what a lousy winter you've had there with various illnesses. I do hope that by the time you read this you're feeling a bit better and the rain has stopped. Hopefully if all the kids are well enough for scho you can take some time at home to recuperate and not worry too much about jobs around the house. Just look after yourself.

Sorry Nigella no idea about a red tongue. Hope better in morning

sweetkitty Sun 09-Feb-14 22:26:23

Sorry to hear about moose hope she's on the mend really soon xxx

Hope you feel better soon Moose

NCISaddict Mon 10-Feb-14 05:10:02

Take care Moose. Hope things look up soon.

NigellasGuest Mon 10-Feb-14 10:39:48

red tongue better, thank you mint - I think it could have been the hibiscrub getting into his mouth but I will keep an eye on it. Best wishes to Moose again.

poor moose, I hope you are recovering soon and that nothing else happens in 2014, or 2015 for that matter.

sweetkitty Tue 11-Feb-14 16:44:59

Took Nala out for a lovely walk yesterday and yes you guessed it another cut foot, only a small nick this time doesn't require stitches as it's across the top of her toe didn't bleed but still.

DP was really annoyed saying the dog has cost more money than he thought hmmhmmhmm I think he was just angry as he's ok now.

Might have to think about a new dog walking route

Poor Nala - she has really been in the wars in terms of her paw. Hope she's not worried about running about. Is there lots of broken glass where you walk?

Hope everyone ok in this awful weather. Trees are down tonight around us and masses of water about but no flooding where we are in Yorkshire - hope you all ok. Our puppy is going mad in this wind - hyped up and skittish.

NigellasGuest Wed 12-Feb-14 20:15:18

sorry to hear that, sweetkitty -how did it happen, was it glass? I've seen glass a couple of times where we walk. I just don't understand some people!

Fine in the weather here, being in Herts. My heart goes out to those more unfortunate people in other areas. We went out for a walk today in the wind - then it started sleeting. I was the only one out but at least pup and I had the woods to ourselves. He seemed pretty grateful to get back in the car at the end though - but it did pay off because he had a good long sleep when we got back home!

sweetkitty Wed 12-Feb-14 21:07:42

I think it must have been glass hmm that's 3 out of her 4 paws have been cut now. Yes where I walk is notorious for teenagers drinking at weekends and smashing their bottles. It's such a shame as it's a lovely walk along the river with a waterfall and loads of wildlife but to get to it there's a path full of glass hmm I try to avoid it as much as I can.

Weather wise we are fine (central Scotland) but shock at all the photos from down South. Poor people.

SallyBear Wed 12-Feb-14 21:46:47

Sweetkitty. Can you pop Nala in the car and drive somewhere that's glass free?
DH is forever picking up cans and bottles abandoned by teenagers, from our local park if the weather has been good. Not sure why anyone would want to drink in a park really.
Poor puppy.

sweetkitty Thu 13-Feb-14 11:22:07

Sallybear - I am on the lookout for such a place, I took her a different route this morning and we did some road walking on a very busy road to get her used to traffic.

SallyBear Thu 13-Feb-14 11:32:37

I'm very lucky where I live as its a modern city, so walkways are away from roads and generally are glass free. We have access to so many different parks, woods, river, canal and lake walks. Toby certainly gets a great variety. I don't think he'd be too good along a busy high street. He's a bit of a Jessie when it comes to lorries etc.

How's your girl's paw this morning?

sweetkitty Thu 13-Feb-14 11:45:52

We are right next to a large country park but to get to the wooded areas you have to go through the glass strewn paths hmm it's just feels ridiculous to put her in the car when there's a park 5 mins away.

Her paw is looking fine, it's more her toe this time so she's not actually walking on it.

That's a shame.
I take mine to Kelling heath most days and it's lovely. Except for the people who think the rule about being allowed to leave shit in the scrub applies to the paths too

Could you keep her on the lead for the paths and use that to practise loose lead walking with lots of treats?

I say that as someone who is desperate to get free from the lead at the first possible opportunity as my shoulder and hip are not coping well with pulling!

basildonbond Thu 13-Feb-14 17:55:01

Ouch - poor Nala - hope this is the last injury for a food long while ...

moosemama Fri 14-Feb-14 11:32:55

Hello everyone. I'm finally upright and able to spend a bit of time mnetting.

Sorry to hear about Nala getting another cut foot. I get so angry about smashed glass. The idiot teenagers around here favour the childrens' play area for their nocturnal get-togethers, so not a problem for dogs, but really dangerous for toddlers. It's the rubbish collections that seem to leave glass smashed on the pavements in our area, which is something I get really irate about, as the recycling isn't smashed until they get hold of it. angry

I think I'd definitely be investing in some dog-boots if I were you sweetkitty.

My two have been really bored while I've been ill. Dh tends to do fairly short lead walks with them and not much, if any training. First week I was too ill to do anything, but have been doing a bit of clicker training and chucking toys from the sofa for them this week. Got dressed for the first time in two weeks yesterday and they ran to the back porch and started snouting their harnesses enthusiastically. Unfortunately I am still very wobbly on my legs, so it will be a few more days until I can take them out, so they're going to be very disappointed.

Poor you Moose. How tough on you to only be bit better now - you must be SO frustrated with it.

Take it gradually now and don't feel guilty if it takes a while to get back to decent dog walking. They know you love them dearly!

moosemama Fri 14-Feb-14 12:28:03

Thanks mint.

I haven't got much choice really. Tried to get up and do the school run, but ended up nearly fainting and being sent back to bed this morning. blush

I'm extremely lucky to have had my Mum, Sister and dh covering the school runs for me. Don't know what I'd have done without them.

I haven't actually felt well enough to be frustrated with it yet, which is how I know I must have been pretty poorly. Dh said he knew I was starting to get better when I got cross with him for not doing something right! blush grin

Dh has his best mate coming this weekend for his birthday. So hopefully they can take the dogs somewhere like a country park to give them some extra stimulation.

Bit worried about Pip. He's barely seen another dog for the last couple of weeks, as dh can only walk them before and after work and doesn't meet many other dog walkers. He said he's been ok with the odd dog they've seen at a distance, but hasn't had any actual interaction at all. Really hope it hasn't set his socialisation back.

NigellasGuest Fri 14-Feb-14 20:17:16

poor Moose, I do hope things improve soon. Don't worry about the socialisation, I'm sure all the very early socialisation has been absorbed and he will be just fine x

moosemama Fri 14-Feb-14 20:44:45

Thanks Nigella.

Unfortunately Pip wasn't able to start socialising until he was nearly 17 weeks old, due to being very poorly when we first adopted him. By then he was fine with anyone and anything - except other dogs. He's petrified of them.

We've done a lot of work with him, he's passed his first two certificates at dog club and is happy to be around the dogs there - but unfortunately doesn't seem to have generalised that socialisation to anywhere outside of the club.

He usually just tries to hide behind me - which is no easy task given his size - but we have had a couple of little wuffs at other dogs recently and I'm really worried about his fear descending into fear aggression. I had a large-breed, fear-aggressive dog many years ago - pre dcs - and helping him took over our lives. I can't go through all that again.

basildonbond Sat 15-Feb-14 07:48:20

Welcome back moose - I hope you are completely better very soon

Hello I might be joining you soon. tomorrow we are going to see a Poo Shih and if all goes well put down a deposit and pick him up early March. We are really excited, been talking about having a dog for years but this is the first time we have actively looked. Hope to update and post a photo tomorrow.

moosemama Sat 15-Feb-14 14:45:53

Hi insantity.

Good luck visiting your pup. Definitely come back and post a photo, I need a cute puppy fix now my boy resembles something akin to a cross between a giraffe and a kangaroo. hmm grin

sweetkitty Sat 15-Feb-14 15:34:36

Glad you are feeling a bit better moose, poor Pip.

Nala is fantastic with other dogs, she will go and greet any dog but shows she is very submissive to the older dog. They usually either ignore her completely or have a play, if they ignore her she's happy to come away from them. Recall is very good.

Her problem still is jumping, she's so friendly she bounces up to anyone she meets, a lot of the time people might think I'm scared of their dog when I put her on her lead but it's fear of her bouncing on them hmm we use kikopups method of turning our back completely and ignoring her and praising and rewarding when she has four paws on the floor.

She got a fright this morning down the woods and we met two men with a large Harris Hawk, Nala was terrified but I think it was the bells on it as it flew.

New puppies gringringrin

moose - you are back, brilliant. I am glad you are starting to feel a little better. Poor you.

kitty - there's a FB page by Sally Bradbury, dog training advice and support, that has a file about jumping up, which is well worth reading, it's a topic that comes up often.

We are on two weeks now no walking so far as Harry's paw refuses to heal, it was so deep. We are on our second set of staples, hopefully this will sort it once and for all, poor Harry has coped admirably but seems so depressed! He's learned to 'spin', pick out various toys from a pile on request and used every kong toy I have going for food smile

Hector is a little dynamo of energy and spirit and is great fun, he's a very cuddly little soul and loves learning. Harry and Hector get on brilliantly, it's so funny to watch them play, I can't wait until they can both walk full walks.

Hector did manage to get a bit of chicken bone stuck going through his system though and last night had to have a general to remove it from his bottom, made me rethink feeding raw a touch to be honest, he had only ever had one or two small chicken wings as a treat. He bounced back within a few hours but I have a £200 bill and a bollocking from the vet.

Definitely going to leave it until he's older until trying again, I did try the minced stuff but he wasn't a fan.

moosemama Sat 15-Feb-14 17:26:16

Oh no poor Harry. sad Hope it finally heals up this time.

Sorry to hear about Hector's chicken bone problem too. Some dogs don't chew chicken wings up very well. Lurcherboy never got on with them, as he tends to swallow them almost whole and it scared the pants off me. He did much better with things like a slab (rack?) of lamb ribs all joined together or having a whole chicken frame to nibble and chew at, rather than something, bite-sized, iyswim. Oldgirl was an expert, three really hard chomps and she'd obliterated the whole wing. She started on raw at 6 weeks old - had jaws like a pitbull that girl. grin

I have started to ramp up Pip's attention training, thinking that I will concentrate on getting him to focus on me while we're out and hope eventually he will just get used to having other dogs around and nothing terrifying happening. Bought the Kindle book of Click to Calm yesterday when I was feeling particularly crap about it all. It hasn't really told me anything I didn't already know, but it's helped to reassure me that I'm doing all the right things.

Planning to work up to taking him to lots of country fairs and vw shows and a couple of Lurcher events over the spring and summer. They're always heaving with dogs, but all on lead and usually really relaxed, calm and well behaved. Hoping he'll be thoroughly bored of seeing other dogs by the end of the summer and we'll finally have got him past his wussiness anxiety around them.

Am also re-reading the book I bought about separation anxiety when Lurcherboy had it and have finally accepted that it's me, not him that has the problem. blush He simply doesn't do any of the things they describe, no elimination, destruction, salivation etc. He does whine a bit and he does get louder - but only if he's bored and run out of treat toys and things to do. I think that will improve with maturity. Mum wants to take me and the dcs out to lunch at the dcs favourite farm shop this half term, so I'm going to just have to bite the bullet and go and then hopefully it will be onwards and upwards from there.

NigellasGuest Sat 15-Feb-14 18:24:57

oh sorry Moose, I obviously don't read all the posts so missed that information, sorry to read that. Sounds like you are doing all you can do to stop him being afraid. He's lucky to have you! needa I am horrified especially as my pup is demolishing a chicken wing as I type!!!

Sorcha1966 Sat 15-Feb-14 18:35:07

Hi everyone. What a great tread

I am a first time proper puppy mummy, to Lola a 7 week old Border Collie. She came home today and seems very settled. Slept in her crate this afternoon. We have had a couple of accidents indoors but lots of success outdoors with tiny rewards - a couple of questions for those of you with much more experience than I

How often do puppies normally poo?

how many hours a day would you expect a 7 week old puppy to sleep ?

and what d you cleanup the accidents with so the puppy does not associate that spot with toileting ?

thank you all for any advice! I will try to put a photo of Lola on my profile - I have LOADS already !

smile

NCISaddict Sat 15-Feb-14 19:15:23

Hi Sorcha I've got a six month old border collie, Finn,,can't remember how much he slept when we got him but I got into the habit of feeding him in his crate and then leaving him to sleep afterwards for about an hour. If I let him out he couldn't relax unless we all sat still too! He had to be up following us and being nosy and generally border collie like.smile
I still have to enforce a sleep after a long walk or he's completely hyper.

I think Simple solution which you can get from pet shops is whats recommended for cleaning up accidents. Poos were quite frequent, at least four times a day but very small, he's fed on raw food so I don't know if that makes a difference to frequency, I know it does to size.

basildonbond Sun 16-Feb-14 08:54:54

Hi sorcha - we have a nearly 7 month old Toller puppy (sometimes described as being like collies with an 'off' switch grin)

When we first got him - at 8 weeks - he'd be active for 1.5 to 2 hours and then conk out for a couple of hours although he slept well at night right from the start. When he was very little and he needed to sleep it didn't matter what was going on when he was tired, he'd just sleep but as he got a little older and more interested nosy we started having to enforce naps in his crate otherwise he'd get horribly overtired (just like a toddler)

We still pop him in his crate with a stuffed kong for an hour or so once a day (not always at the same time as I don't want him getting neurotic about having the same routine every day) just to make sure he is getting enough rest

NigellasGuest Sun 16-Feb-14 09:09:42

hello Sorcha I am also a first time puppy mum and extremely PFB about him haha - he is a nearly 5 month old cocker spaniel. I thought I had put pics on my profile but strangely they don't seem to be there anymore????
anyway you will find I can't give you much advice as I am a complete novice but there are plenty of very very lovely, helpful people on this thread who have been an absolute godsend to me in the early days!

moose - If it helps, I am more anxious about the dogs then DH, they live their lives around him, despite him adoring both. he had no concerns about shutting them in the kitchen last night, despite Hector being wide awake and full of life, I would worry about toileting etc, but they just settled down. I always feel I need to do it 'right', lots of training, play, toilet breaks, walk, interaction etc. DH will play and train lots, but to his agenda. I understand your concerns and you will be on edge the whole time you are out, but perhaps if you do it once, that will be the spur to push you on.

Harry isn't great today, his leg is swollen and he won't weight bear, he's sleepy, I think it's infected. He's eating and drinking so we'll go back to the vet tomorrow rather than emergency today. He did lick a lot yesterday, but that's fairly normal, although in this case was clearly a sign.

Sorcha - my puppy has an older dog for company, so tends to sleep less, but a couple of hours play, a couple of hours sleep, repeat, is about right!

My two dogs toilet differently too, but I guess if you are feeding 3/4 meals a day, they will toilet more frequently.

Our floors are tiled or wood downstairs, so just a floor wipe for us, sorry, did you mean carpet?

SallyBear Sun 16-Feb-14 11:27:20

Drumroll please! Toby cocked his leg yesterday to pee for the first time!

LadyTurmoil Sun 16-Feb-14 13:33:11

When younger dogs are eating raw, you can bash things like chicken wings with a rolling pin or hammer first, so the bone is already broken up a bit before they get their teeth into it...

Lady - is that what I was supposed to do? I never did this with Harry and he was fine. Vet said usually, even big pieces of bone are broken down in the stomach, due to the acid content of the dogs stomach, but it did worry me. At least it got that far, it could have perforated his bowel, so I thank my lucky stars it nearly got out!

Vet also said he sees a lot of stuck bones, but he's not a fan of raw feeding, so I can see why he said that, although he didn't judge.

moosemama Sun 16-Feb-14 15:18:32

I was told not to bash the bones before feeding them as it makes the dogs less inclined to have a proper chomp themselves and can leave sharp edges which are more likely to cause internal injury.

Plenty of vets raw feed these days and it was a vet that wrote some of the first books about BARF. Look up Ian Billinghurst and Richard Allport.

My vet found a piece of bone in Lurcherboy's bowel when he was having a prostate exam. Didn't bat an eyelid - just said "somebody's been enjoying a bone or two - lucky boy". Some bone does make it's way through the system, but it's actually pretty rare for it to be of a shape/size to cause any problems.

Sorcha1966 Sun 16-Feb-14 15:27:01

Thanks - I have rolled up all the rugs so that Lola's accidents are less significant

She has done really well today although there are still lots of accidents. She has worked out that peeing outside gets her a treat and looks for it now!

The dog is great. my husband however has done exactly NOTHING for the puppy he was so desperate to get. Not even taking her outside when I told him she was about to pee. Am seriously fucked off; and worried. I work FT. We only got this dog on the basis that he is at home and can do the work...

CaptainTripps Sun 16-Feb-14 22:18:49

Owner of a mini labradoodle here. He is a miniature one so perfect size, lovely, cheery chappy temperament. And as bright as a button. M
He has a sweet character and is obedient. Very low maintenance. Am so lucky to have found him. Got him at 6 months pd so he even came house trained.

Looking forward to many happy times with our new, darling boy.

sweetkitty Sun 16-Feb-14 22:30:11

Hello captaintripps welcome to our little gang

Good day here had a last minute walk with Nala's brother and sister, she looks small compared to them but had a great time playing then we met a neighbours new puppy rottie/collie cross, their old GSD was PTS in the summer, don't know about that cross though. She's been asleep apart from dinner/pee/poo all evening.

LadyTurmoil Mon 17-Feb-14 00:57:27

needa That bit of advice was from the raw feeding group on FB, other people said it when getting small puppies started on raw... that's all I know, I'm afraid!

basildonbond Mon 17-Feb-14 11:28:25

Good walk in the sunshine (yay) yesterday - my car's broken down (again) so we had to walk to the park - it takes about 20 mins to get to the bit which is safe to let puppies off lead so up until now Fitz hasn't been big enough/had enough stamina and I haven't wanted to 'waste' all his walk-time being on the lead. He was fab - v happy walking, didn't pull (thank you perfect fit harness!), met a couple of his puppy friends, made a new friend, chased his ball lots and most excitingly of all met another Toller who turned out to be a relative of some kind (same breeder, different parents, last year's litter). They connected immediately and had the most fabulous play and Fitz worked out that if another dog tries to hump him all he needs to do is do a quick rollover and it stops - no need to get snappy grin

He's just been picked up for puppy day care and he loves the guy who takes him - he went all wiggly and happy when he saw him and trotted off without a backwards glance!

Oh I can join officially now as we have put down a deposit on our Poo Shih grin He was born Christmas Eve and he will be called Eric (dd's choice hmm). I've tried numerous times to upload a photo and failed so will email MN and ask if they will do it for me.
So can I ask for all your best tips for bringing a new puppy home and any recommendations for toys/bed/bedding or supplies I might need?

Don't know if this link will work as I'm pretty inept as a rule.

moosemama Mon 17-Feb-14 18:08:48

Hello and welcome Sorcha and CaptainTripps.

Sorcha - your profile isn't public so I can get my puppy pic fix! grin Sorry to hear your dh isn't doing his share of puppy care. Mine was quite hands off to start with, although I think it had something to do with him feeling he was being disloyal to Oldgirl, who we lost in the Spring last year. He's totally besotted now that I've made sure Pip is well trained and does do his share of feeding, walking and toilet trips.

Insanity - the link works and he is so cute! Same name as Simon Cowell's new baby. grin

I have spent a fair part of day watching a fantastic lecture by the American dog trainer Suzanne Clothier. It was about Arousal, Anxiety and Fear and helping trainers to understand the differences between them, recognise when they occur and approach rehabilitation. It's really helped clarify a few things in my mind re Pip's fear of other dogs and how to move forwards with it. Just the simple fact of saying that, when we say a dog is fearful or anxious we need to remember that it's far more than just a word - in that moment that dog is actually there with the heart pounding, clutching stomach etc real physical symptoms that accompany fear. The first and most fundamental thing we can do is make sure they feel safe. No training or rehabilitation can happen until then and we need to learn to recognise the individual dog's signals, so that we never push them past their safe zone. We can't work on helping them to develop the skills they need to handle whatever they're worried about until they feel safe. She's an amazing woman. It cost $20 to download, but was worth every cent.

It's made me rethink even bothering to take him in our local park for the forseeable future. His anxiety kicks in even before we approach the entrance and he clearly associates the place with fear. I have been trying, unsuccessfully to counter condition and now realise that it's never going to work. He can't counter condition his emotional response to the place because his anxiety levels are through the roof before we even get there.

So, I am going to try and find some way of helping him to develop the skills he needs to cope with having other dogs around in a place where he feels safe to begin with. It totally explains why I thought he wasn't generalising his feeling safe at dog club to our dog walks. I realised it isn't all walks, it's just that park and until his confidence and skills have developed enough for him to feel relaxed around dogs almost anywhere else, there is no point in keeping on putting him through the stress of going to our local park, as all it will do is freak him out and set him back. We need to build his skills and confidence elsewhere first and only when he's completely happy, start to address and counter-condition his negative associations with that park. That would be the very last part of the process, not the starting point.

I'm quite angry about it really, as if we hadn't had several bad experiences with out of control off-lead hooligan dogs there, almost as soon as he was allowed out, he wouldn't have the negative associations in the first place. He is a different dog in the other two local-ish parks. So cross with myself for not realising it sooner. sad

Moose I'm besotted already, he's a bundle of fluff and so calm and really loves being fussed over. The breeder's face was a picture when dd told her his name grin she said she'd never met another Eric before wink There was one boy left, I'm hoping he's gone before we go to collect Eric as dh was sorely tempted to get the pair.

SallyBear Tue 18-Feb-14 00:55:28

Toby is ill again. He's eaten something meh and has d&v. Been to the vets got him an anti nausea shot and antibiotics. He's been in and out all day to go to the loo. Taken up the rugs downstairs as I don't want any accidents again. My poor puppy.

moosemama Tue 18-Feb-14 10:01:38

Poor Toby.

I read somewhere that there is the equivalent to winter vomiting virus for dogs going around at the moment. Apparently vets are seeing an unprecedented number of dogs with d&v. So he may not have eaten something.

I think, Lonecat, one of the MN Doghouse vets said something about it as well.

SallyBear Tue 18-Feb-14 13:35:35

He's really not a well boy. Tired and sleeping lots. Drinking, and eating a small amount of food. DH decided to shove the pills into his food, so he's now suspicious of what's in his bowl. So I demonstrated my 'shove it in a lump of peanut butter and watch it disappear' trick and he conceded that my way was better.

moosemama Tue 18-Feb-14 14:10:59

Poor lad. I hate it when they feel so poorly and you can't tell them it'll be ok.

Hope he's has a swift recovery.

SallyBear Tue 18-Feb-14 14:16:05

He's wandering about now. Back door is wide open. Glad it's not a cold day!! Need to air the bugs out of the house, but you know I think that you're right about the doggy rotavirus. There has been so many cases at schools that it's no surprise if its spread to dogs too. They catch cold like viruses as well.
You can tell when they feel unwell. Toby curls himself into a little ball. When he's well and asleep he's just stretched out. hmm My poor boy.

Interesting post moose re Pip. In a way, at least you can avoid that park, and good that it isn't, say the vets etc.

ANOTHER week for Harry at least as the wound was so deep the pad is struggling to heal. I feel dreadful for him and am going stir crazy myself.

I am trying to do as much as I can with Hector, took him to Pets at Home today. He adore people and has no fear of anybody, he quakes at other dogs though. He was brave enough to sniff a couple after a while!

Will have to try and make sure we meet as many dogs as week can before 16 weeks, but he's different again when Harry is around, meeting dogs and off lead too. His short walks without Harry have been all about trying to get into my arms smile

Just signed up for the first part of the Thinkdog.org correspondence course, which looks interesting.

Poor Toby, hope he recovers soon.

moosemama Tue 18-Feb-14 15:36:03

Needa, I started that course when it first came out, but had to drop out. It was when we had our fear aggressive Boxer x GSD. I got myself in a right state, ended up having a chat with Sarah Whitehead and decided I simply didn't have enough time or energy to devote to both the course and his rehabilitation. At the time the poor lad was on Prozac and we were doing several socialisation trips a day, taking 3 of us to work him and ensure both he and everyone else was safe. It was pretty full on. Have to say Sarah Whitehead couldn't have been nicer, she was really helpful.

I later did the Federation of Dog Trainers and Canine Behaviourists, Canine Studies Level II course and loved every minute. You had to attend college with your dog once a week and there were several weekend sessions as well. The course was part academic, part handling and you had to do a year long study of three different dogs as well.

Can't find the FDTCB website anymore though - so not sure the course is still running. It was accredited by City & Guilds iirc, but I'd have to check my certificates.

moose - I am not sure where I will go with it, but would hope that I continue to do the further courses available, but one step at a time. I need to engage my brain with study again. I love my job, and it has fitted wonderfully well round my family over the years being so flexible and so few hours. I hope to increase the hours a bit too when the puppy gets older. However, it doesn't tax my brain and never really has. Perfect for a mum of young kids, having had a ridiculously stressful job pre children but I have a half decent brain that needs awakening and a love of dogs, plus my kids are teens now and it's time for me again smile

Hope to pick your brains a bit over the next few months?

Did you ever have a dog without issues? wink

moosemama Tue 18-Feb-14 18:36:23

I don't have any brains left to pick! grin

Yes, I have had quite a few that didn't have ishoos over the years, but often it's the ones you work the hardest with that stick with your the longest, iyswim.

It's really only been the Boxer x GSD and Pip that have had problems - well if you don't count Lurcherboy's, thankfully brief, flirtation with separation anxiety when we lost Oldgirl last year.

The Boxer x GSD was rescued from a puppy farm. His father was an extremely nervous and aggressive, massive, GSD and the consensus was that his problems were genetic as a result - exacerbated by him developing panosteitis as a youngster and missing out of months of socialisation because he was too heavy to carry - and then our vet deciding to neuter him at 6 months. He was a very big boy and we tried for years to rehabilitate him, but in the end, although he'd improved massively, we went for management and containment over keeping-on putting him through so much fear and stress. So, we had a huge outdoor kennel and run for when we had visitors he didn't know (he was fear aggressive to people and dogs) and knew when and where to walk him to avoid any confrontations. We had him trained to the point he would completely ignore other dogs and people and could go offlead to chase frisbees and would still ignore them, but were always exceptionally careful about where and when we took him.

Oldgirl herself was a monumental pain in the rear as a youngster, but nothing unusual for a Border Collie x Belgian Shepherd. She was just very young, very highly strung, brimming with energy and too clever for my her own good! grin She was an amazing dog once she'd matured and I still miss her sooo much. sad

My Wheaten girl was rock solid, super brainy, easy to train and had her bronze silver and gold by the time she was 1 year old. We never had any problems with her, could take her anywhere and do anything with her.

First dog was a massive long-coated GSD bitch, that MIL found under a hedge and close to death while I was staying with them. She was awesome - almost a human in a dog's body really she was so intelligent and an amazingly calm and centred girl. She was so well behaved that dh and I managed to live in student accommodation, on campus at uni, with her without anyone realising! grin

Second dog was a Lurcher, although we didn't know it at the time. She was a Whippet x Sheltie. Thick as bricks, really dizzy and super fast off lead, but very pretty and sooo sweet natured - loved nothing more than to jam her head under your chin and have a cuddle. Sadly she escaped from my Mum's garden when she was dog-sitting for us, was missing for 24 hours and was hit by a car and killed outright - ironically right outside the vets. She had somehow managed to cross the M42 motorway to get to where she was found.

It was having the Boxer x GSD with all his problems that got me interested in dog behaviour. If I'd never had such a difficult dog, I wouldn't know half what I do now about behaviour and training. Nearly every trainer/behaviourist I've ever met says the same about having a particular dog with issues that started them on the path.

Sorcha1966 Tue 18-Feb-14 18:52:18

Hi All and thanks for the welcome

Lola is doing amazingly well and we all just adore her! she seems very calm and although she is lively and plays adn nips and mouths up she will also lie down, snooze and chew some of her toys. Doesnlt lie the King much though (which is a shame! )

I'm looking into Pet insurance for her and have quotes very disparate in amount - what doe 'whole life insurance mean ?' will it be the same price for ever ?

how long does it take to house train a puppy ? Not that I am impatient, (i think shes doing really well already) but would like to have an idea of timescale to tell the children.

do any of you use puppy day care ? I'm wondering if we might need to at some point ? whats it like ? how do you choose s good one- how do you ensure the puppy doesn't get overwhelmingly stressed by it ?

so many questions ! (sorry)

Sorcha x

moosemama Tue 18-Feb-14 19:47:06

Hi Sorcha

You need a policy that gives lifetime cover - that means they won't exclude any conditions if they are chronic or reoccur after the renewal date. I would think whole life insurance would come under that category - but do double check.

Mine are with PetPlan, as I found their terms and conditions to be the best and they cover dental and cruciate repair surgery, both of which are more likely with sighthounds and other insurers often exclude or restrict them. There cover is £7,500 a year, I think, could be £7,000 and it's a lifetime policy so they will continue to cover any illness for the dog's whole life. Mine are both considered large crossbreeds and come it at between £21 - £23 each a month. I trust PetPlan as I used to use them with my old dogs and they always paid up without question.

Housetraining - how long is a piece of string. Each dog is different, some train really quickly and are clean in the house by as early as 10/12 weeks - others will still be having accidents at several months old.

I will be interested to read any answers re puppy daycare as I'm considering trying it with Pip once he reaches the point of being able to cope with being around other dogs. I think it will help his socialisation and help to ensure he doesn't get over-attached from me being around all the time.

sweetkitty Tue 18-Feb-14 21:28:31

I've had a few interesting dog walks the past few days, yesterday I parked by the playing fields (as I had DS with me who is 3 so didn't walk down) briefly spoke to a woman with an older GSD the headed over to a friends house who has 2 dogs, we headed down the woods where we met another friend with a 7 month old Dobie who Nala adores. Anyway we had a longish walk and on the way a helicopter was buzzing about including hovering above us for about 10 mins, DS loving this but were thinking they might be chasing someone. This happened twice. So got out the woods and the GSD woman came running over, she had phoned the police as she was worried about me going down the woods with a toddler and a dog for so long (hour and a half toddler pace). The helicopter had been looking for me grin

Today we went out for a walk met a 6 month old Staffy who was chasing Nala, the dogs ran round past some trees and we heard almighty screaming. Rushed round to fond a woman with two Lhasas under her arms and desperately shouting a third, she was hysterical screaming at us to put our dogs on a lead (none of hers were) the Lhasa not being held was fine really calm sniffing the pups, I was shouting to her they are both puppies they w. Ont hurt them. We put the pups on their leads and she calmed down a bit and actually apologised. How odd though if you have 3 dogs off lead in a public park the chances are they are going to meet other dogs.

Nala is great with other dogs, she will run up and greet them usually in a submissive position and ask to play, if the dog plays great but if it sniffs and ignores her she runs away, her recall is also pretty good.

As I've said before it's her jumping on people I have to watch and will put her back on lead if there's non dog walkers about or children.

Sallybear - hope Toby's better really soon poor boy

Moosemama - how you feeling now? Those courses sound really interesting might have a look

moosemama Tue 18-Feb-14 22:44:22

Blimey sweet, you live an exciting life! grin Can't believe someone called the police when you were an hour and a half walking your dog - how odd. confused

I'm still not feeling great. I've have underlying health issues that relapse and remit and I'm pretty sure that blooming flu has pushed me into relapse, which isn't great. I've been very down about it this week, but am trying to give myself a kick up the backside and take some control.

Dh and I have decided we're going to book Pip in at the vets to discuss this odd intermittent lameness/stiffness in his back legs. I think there may be the possibility of it being panosteitis and if it is, it will be like history repeating itself, as that's what my Boxer x GSD boy had.

Measured Pip this evening - properly with a spirit level to be sure - and he's bang on 26" to the shoulder. He was only 22" in November and I think Pano is often seen in large breeds that have rapid growth. The good news is that it's temporary and self-limiting and if it is that it will mean only light exercise, which will fit in with my not-so-great health, as I won't be up to long hikes for a while. Actually, this will sound terrible, but I'm kind of hoping it's that, as the alternatives, like hip issues for example, are too awful to think about.

While we're there we need to discuss neutering again and see whether the vet wants us to delay again. He should have been done by 6 months according to his adoption contract and the rescue are proactive in chasing them up and I'm told will take action to reclaim the dog if you don't comply. They were great when I spoke to them at 6 months and agreed that with his fearfulness and potential for osteo problems, being a large breed, they were happy to put it off. They did say to come back to them again, if the vet still wanted to delay, but for some reason I am really worried about contacting them this time. I'm pretty sure the vet won't want to do it yet, especially with him having the lameness/stiffness issue as well and I would rather put it off until a minimum of 12 months old - longer if poss to get him as confident as possible around other dogs before we mess with his hormones. It will have to be done, as it's the rescue's policy, it's just a question of when is best for him and whether or not the rescue will agree.

sweetkitty Tue 18-Feb-14 22:57:02

Moose - oh poor you you have been having a tough time of it recently hope your health improves soon.

I've been reading a lot about neutering/spaying recently and am going to wait until Nala is 2 and fully grown before getting her spayed.

Could you not commit to the rescue that you will definitely be getting him done but are waiting on the advice of your vet?

Thanks Moose - the Boxer cross must have been pretty draining for you. Interesting to read about all your dogs, did you have a favourite in your heart of hearts?

Feeling ill and being housebound is extremely draining. I have found this paw business with Harry pretty trying, and I have had had nothing like the confinement that you have had. Don't beat yourself up, it would get anybody down, you are not being self pitying.

I am sure the rescue will be understanding of Pip's circumstances and not subject you to a blanket policy if you chat with them. I hope to leave Hector longer than Harry, who was only done at 6 months given that he needed to have the histeocytoma (sp!!!) removed anyway, and I didn't want him to have another general. Shouldn't have worried on that score, he's had about 12 since then smile

Hello lovely puppy mums! What a lot you've all been going through recently.

Glad you're bit better Moose and don't try and rush back to walking as you don't want to set yourself back any.

I'm manic at work recently but chose a breed that would cope well on one good walk a day and lots of sleeping! OES are real couch potato dogs but don't do well without company so as I work from home mainly I can get the walk done early then work with minty around and we are both happy.

Do people insist their dogs sit by keen before crossing road? I'm trying but minty is way too excited by the toddlers, scooters and teenagers on our pavement bit of the walk to listen to me and I feel a real ninny standing there repeatedly saying SIT when everyone else is crossing the road!

basildonbond Wed 19-Feb-14 08:39:45

Hi mint - Fitz does sit before crossing the road but I'm not sure how we did it! We did quite a bit of heel work at home where every time I stopped I got him to sit by my side, clicked and treated - for some reason although he can't concentrate on walking to heel on the way to the park,the sitting when I stop has become completely ingrained - he doesn't even expect a treat now (although I give him one every now and then just to keep him guessing!)

moosemama Wed 19-Feb-14 09:04:51

Thanks everyone. blush

Needa, my heart was lost to my first GSD girl and my Boxer x GSD was also such a special boy, it honestly broke my heart when we lost him to cancer when he was 7 - 10 days after ds1 was born. He was the sweetest, most comical and loving boy I've ever known - a dog in a million and I think because he had the fear aggression, you felt exceptionally honoured if he knew and loved you. He stole my heart from the moment I first saw him and I would have walked to the end of the earth across hot coals if I could have fixed him so that the rest of the world could have seen how truly wonderful he was. I still miss him and he's been gone almost 12 years now. sad

I have had a bit of a meltdown/implosion about my situation this morning. Poor old long-suffering dh caught the brunt of it. He came up to get dressed for work and Pip immediately started yelling, despite ds1 and dd being just the other side of the dog gate. Being home with sick dcs and then ill myself has set him right back and I am really at the end of my tether with it. It wouldn't be so bad if I could see light at the end of the tunnel, but if I am going into relapse - and I know I am - I can't see me being able to go in and out and do the work necessary to desensitise him on top of caring for the dcs, doing school runs and taking both dogs for walks. Dh said this morning that if we were anyone else Pip would have gone back to rescue by now and he's right. He's not going - never in a million years, but when you feel this low it's hard not to think about how different your life would be if he wasn't around. I hate myself for even letting the thought creep into my head, but in truth am really struggling. sad

Sorry for self-pitying whinge.

Sorcha1966 Wed 19-Feb-14 09:06:03

Thank you moose. I'm sorry to hear about your (and Pips) health issues. I am sure the rescue centre will be only too glad that Pip has a very loving home with a responsible owner who is taking Vet's advice about the best thing for this particular dog ...

The quote from petplan for Lola is £31 a month - she is a pedigree BC is that why its more than a cross breed ? is that what it will be for the whole of her life or do the premiums escalate ?

SallyBear Wed 19-Feb-14 09:08:07

John Lewis and NFU Mutual were good too. We went to NFU as we could make as many claims in a year up to £4k each time. It's a whole of life plan. I expect the premiums will go up. Bit like car insurance.

moosemama Wed 19-Feb-14 09:08:34

Mint - at our dog club they don't insist on sit for sides of roads, as long as you can get a reliable 'wait'. You only have to do the sit if you're going for KC awards.

Basil's way of practising at home until it becomes an automatic behaviour is a good approach, but if he's that hyperstimulated when you take him out you may need to do lots of repetition just up and down the drive or the pavement outside your house before he starts to get it reliably. (I had to do this with Oldgirl - hours and hours of walking up and and down our drive working on heelwork and sitting at heel - it was really boring and annoying, but it worked.)

moosemama Wed 19-Feb-14 09:10:05

Sorcha - the premiums don't tend to shoot up massively with PetPlan until the dog reaches 8 years of age - then it gets a bit silly, but lots of insurance companies are the same in that respect. At least PetPlan don't seem to push up premiums just because you've had a claim or two in the previous year.

NCISaddict Wed 19-Feb-14 09:23:37

We've gone for John Lewis with our Border Collie, can't remember what we paid,(don't pay monthly) but it was cheaper than petplan for whole life cover. Haven't had to claim yet thank goodness.
We were with direct line for our previous dog, I would have gone with them again but for a rather silly reason. When my old Springer died we contacted them to terminate the insurance then got an email asking us to fill in a questionnaire about why we had decided to leave them. I know it wasn't meant to be insensitive but I couldn't quite get past the thought. I did email them to tell them but never got a reply. I know it was an over reaction on my part but I couldn't help it at the time.

We've gone for petplan. We've used them for our other dogs and had to claim a few times for quite large amounts and for protracted illness and they've been brilliant. I perfectly happy to pay a small amount more a month for the cover they've given us. Was surprised by the price though, thought Roo's was higher because of her age but they do seem to have just gone up as Griffs's is only a couple of pounds cheaper at £25. I wonder if it's because Roo is technically a cross Breed whereas griff is a non pedigree wholebreed (can't think of the term)

He is exhausting. Cannot wait for his puppy training to start next month

moose Be kind to yourself. You are feeling awful. You have hardly been out of the house. The puppy has a high level of needs. You actually need a break if you can. Even if you can just go and sit in a cafe with a coffee and large slice of cake and think of nothing but the luxury of having time to yourself.

I work only a few hours a week, but it gives me an opportunity to sit at a desk and engage in a bit of banter, a few giggles and not think about the dogs or what needs doing in the house. I stress about stuff that doesn't ever happen otherwise, like if the dogs are anxious or need to toilet or whether the kids have blown up the house (it's half term!).

Moose, you are important too, take some time.

Sorry - I did think I posted last night but it must have been lost. We use Petplan too and I have been very pleased indeed, and we have claimed a lot in a year. We use another insurer for Dpony, who are not as bad as their reputation suggests, but not as good as Petplan. Harry (Spinger, 16 months, 103848204 claims, £28 per month), Hector (12 week old cocker, £27 per month.

Another advantage of Petplan is that the vet claims direct, so you only pay the excess. I hear good stuff about M&S too just as an aside.

NCISaddict - I do know what you mean, it can be the little stuff that strikes an emotional chord.

mint - we do the sits, waits, leave it commands for the dogs self control more than anything, rather than necessity. I don't conform to any dominance theories, but waiting before coming inside going through doors etc just reinforces good manners for me (and helps with muddy paws!)

NigellasGuest Wed 19-Feb-14 10:51:02

Anyone asking about doggy daycare, my pup goes once a week for half a day. Highly recommended! if you're in Herts I can give details!

moosemama Wed 19-Feb-14 11:47:57

Thank you needa, you are very kind. Honestly, just ignore me. I'm a right misery at the moment - probably just need a slap and a swift foot in the rear end!

Good advice re the self-control training. Both mine have to wait before going through doors or being let outside (again, not dominance theory, I often then let them out in front of me, but they have to wait and go through the door in a controlled manner - it's a godsend on walks when trying to negotiate really muddy gateways etc) and both know to stop, wait and offer each paw for cleaning when they come in the back door. They also have to sit for food, treats, to have a toy thrown etc and do it all automatically, without being prompted. I think impulse control is one of the most important things we can teach our dogs to help them fit into human society better - ultimately it means they find living in our world less confusing and stressful.

Nigella, sadly I am a long-way from Herts. I can't find a daycare place locally that will take entire males over 6 months old. I'm considering a local dog-walking company that has a good rep though, as they are behaviourists too and might be able to help with his fearfulness around other dogs. I'm starting to think I may have to employ a walker a few times a week anyway if my health doesn't improve. I really hate letting anyone else walk them though - I'm even tense the whole time dh is out with them. blush

I have just invested in a new DAP diffuser and some Zylkene tablets for Pip. Trying to have renewed determination and believe we are going to get him sorted - somehow. hmm

basildonbond Wed 19-Feb-14 14:15:33

Moose - I'm so sorry you're feeling so rubbish - you're perfectly entitled to have a moan - not self-pity at all - you've had a lot to put up with and if you can feel you're about to have a relapse it's not surprising your mood is less than sunny

Re puppy daycare - Fitz goes one day a week - he absolutely loves it and comes back shattered - the company I've gone with has the dogs at home and then takes them out for proper walks on wimbledon common or Richmond park - Fitz has just 'graduated' to the grown-up walks as the other puppies on the day he went were smaller and less energetic than him - fortuitously two of best doggy friends also go too - the guy who runs it does boarding too so fitz will go to him when we're away at Easter which is much nicer than going to kennels

However I do need to get Fitz neutered before then as he won't board entire males

Re self control - Fitz has to sit and wait for everything - getting out of the car, in and out of doors, before getting toys thrown or food and at the road side - nothing to do with me being in charge, purely good manners and for his and my safety

NCISaddict Wed 19-Feb-14 17:25:59

I make Finn sit and wait before going anywhere so he doesn't rush through doors/jump out of the car etc. Had a lovely walk today, perfect recall although not many distractions just the gentle thrum of chinooks in the distance!
And no rain!!!!

Moose - everyone is right, you need to go easy on yourself. There is nothing self pitying about describing health related problems because it's in relation to your dog & puppy so you are explaining your situation and maybe people can help with suggestions or just listening - reading a thread must be the equivalent of listening!

I think if I was worried about a health problem/relapse I would try getting regular dog walking arranged early on so it didn't have to be in a rush. You know, this might be the ideal time for Pip and he'll get used to someone else walking him which might help other issues. Your dogs have such a fabulous home, everything you say and describe demonstrates that, so maybe get yourself that extra bit of support in place to help you. You need to save some of your energy for your own recuperation.

I love the sound of such well behaved and mannerly puppies! You are all very good to have got that self control in as a priority early on in training.

We haven't and I think it's partly breed related because OES are very easily stimulated and boisterous, so partly that, but also mainly due to the fact I have put less time in to training. Simple as. You get in what you put out and we're doing fine, I'm happy with minty but we could be better for sure. But I'm optimistic because he is still young and learns quickly as long as there's sausage on offer! I will get there with him, just will take longer as I get quite distracted with other things, like work and then do nothing for a week.

Self control is my next on my agenda - the way minty barges in front of me when we walk through a door WILL change!!

moosemama Wed 19-Feb-14 20:49:58

Thanks mint. I've actually spent a good part of this afternoon researching local dog-walking and daycare providers. So far there's only one I would consider and they don't do daycare, so it would just be walks. All the daycare places round here refuse to take entire dogs over the age of 6 months and some of the dog-walkers do too.

We're thinking of hiring a dog walker and also a cleaner, if we can find one that won't run away screaming when they see the dogs! I know I need to do whatever I can to conserve my energy so I can get better more quickly and to do that I am going to have to loosen my control-freak reins and admit I need some help. It's not going to be easy, but I don't see that I have any choice really.

My two have just had a merry old time extracting kibble from those really thick cardboard inner tubes from tinfoil. I got dh to stand on them and bend the ends in and it took ages for them to actually get through to the kibble.

Oh - and Pip actually slept in the kitchen for two hours this afternoon ... with the kitchen door shut. That's real progress, as he usually whinges as soon as I shut the door. I'm thinking if he carries on this way I may actually be able to go upstairs and have a nap in the day and that will be a good way of testing how long he'll be quiet for if he thinks I'm not in.

Sweet - you mentioned Nala jumping up as being a problem. I was watching some dog training YouTube videos and came across this guy called David Hogan. He has some really good demos of training a jumpy dog (Tiffany in his video is an OES) but would apply to any jumpy dog. Hope it helps! And hope my pasting of link works as it's my first attempt:-

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwsCRzMUOsE

Racerider Wed 19-Feb-14 21:21:58

Anyone able to give me tips for loose lead walking ? Beagle is 13 weeks old, settling in well. I've been shown the technique - pup walks on my right and I administer treats every few steps. However it's hard because a) she's so small and I am tall and b) more importantly she's so busy pulling ahead she ignores the treats. She managed ok indoors.
Will it get better as she gets older and is less excitable about the great outdoors or do I need to get it now by persevering? Is it something that takes ages to teach? Changing direction doesn't seem to help either as she's frantically pulling ahead and not hugely motivated by treats. It's frsatrating me !

DH lets her pull and walks very fast which isn't helping hmm

NCISaddict Wed 19-Feb-14 21:35:17

I've had problems with my Border Collie and loose lead walking until today. I knew the theory but he didn't and was totally uninterested in treats when on the lead. Today I remembered what my old dog trainer taught me, when you know the lead is going to go tight but before it goes tight give a quick check NOT a yank but more a flick IYSWIM and give the command, I use 'close' then praise the moment the dog returns to where you want it to be. She always said you should never haul your dog back but that the 'flick' was a reminder. Today he moved straight back when I did this, nothing else has worked and he's nearly seven months old.
It worked today for the first time ever, I've been turning round and going the other way and trying to treat but with a non food orientated dog it wasn't having any effect.

We have bought Meg (border collies, 7 months) a Halti chest harness with two attachment points so we use a double ended lead. It has transformed her relentless pulling (we tried all the training tricks for ages and none of them worked). She doesn't seem to mind wearing it at all.
Moose, I hope you are well again soon.
NCIS, well done on the recall. It's suddenly gone down hill here.

NCISaddict Wed 19-Feb-14 22:02:28

I've got the halti harness and a double ended lead but it still didn't work!
Really pleased with the recall but will not get complacent. Teenagerdom has still to hit!

I used a harness to reduce pulling then went up to a gentle leader head collar which is like a halti. It does help though some dogs just pull an awful lot when young and really it's time and consistent training that helps most.

The recall sounds good NCIS. I can't remember which of us is using a whistle for recall? I have been whistle training at home and in the garden for weeks though not every day there are so are big time gaps, but I'm wondering when it is sensible to start using it as a command. So far I use the whistle when minty is on his way back to me so it's building the association between running to me, hearing the whistle and getting fab treats. Not sure when to try it as a command without him already being in full pelt towards me? Maybe a solid two weeks of training before we take that step.

NCISaddict Wed 19-Feb-14 22:21:22

I'm not using a whistle yet, Finn doesn't like going too far from us which is a Border Collie trait, he likes to round us up so calling him seems to work atm. I am so lucky to be able to walk where all the other dogs seem to be well socialised and well trained. Thank you to the British Army although I am feeling a bit old today due to the number of 'Good Afternoon Ma'am's' I got today.grin

Moose - the dog walker & cleaner combo sounds perfect to get you over this tough time. You might feel anxious at first about Pip being out with a stranger but just like when you hand over your PFB for the first few times, you start off nervous and at a loose end but soon start to feel confident as you see that they come back intact and happy!

basildonbond Thu 20-Feb-14 06:22:38

Fitz was an absolute star at training class last night - he's been moved up to the next session and is the youngest in there - the first week was a nightmare as he was so unsettled - he couldn't concentrate at all and looked at me blankly when I asked him to do the simplest thing. Over the last two weeks he's gradually got more settled and then last night he'd obviously decided that this class and these dogs were ok and he did everything perfectly <beaming with pride>

I also had a bit of a 'duh' moment - we were working on retrieves and drops and I was trying to substitute a treat for the ball but Fitz wasn't interested. The trainer said I needed to offer him something that in Fitz's mind was of greater value and the only thing that would trump a ball for him was another,new, ball - ta-dah! I'd been so fixated on reward = treats that I hadn't looked at things from Fitz's point of view!

Well done Fitz! And to you, you should be proud of both of you.

It takes a lot to go each week doesn't it? Ours came to an end last week and we signed up to the second set of classes because our trainer runs a weekly dog agility class but you have to have done two sets of classes and be 12 months old so I'm up for that. Agility sounds brilliant fun!

Sorcha1966 Thu 20-Feb-14 21:57:37

What do you do with a very excited nippy puppy? Lola is only 7 weeks old, and generally pretty well behaved. We are working hard on toileting, and that's going well. This evening she was just hyper , jumping up at us, biting and nipping.

I put her in her crate, which I didn't really want to do as I dont want her to associated the crate with punishment. I tried ignoring her first but that didn't really work ... what do you do?

Another question - about vaccinations. Lola had her first vaccines at the breeders vet before she came to us. Apparently what she had is not compatible with what out vet gives so we would have to start all over agani. Cant give the first of the new vaccines for another week. Then 4 weeks between the first and second , then another week for 'cover', By then she will be almost 14 weeks old - I want to start puppy training classes before that and take her out to get socialized...

moosemama Thu 20-Feb-14 22:44:59

She was probably overtired and/or overstimulated. I remember at the start of our first thread, lots of us had similar problems in the evenings and in the end we worked out that we needed to enforce some calm/nap time or perhaps put them in their crate with a chew while they calmed down.

Teaching the settle command/cue can really help with it as well. (Basically you 'capture' them when they're being calm and repeat the cue 'settle' calmly and quietly.)

Can you call around a couple of different vets and see if any of them can continue her vaccination protocol?

Sorcha - re vaccines. You have a couple of options, depending on what your attitude to risk is. You can either her out in your arms, as much as you can, socialising her to as many different situations as you see fit or, do as I did (possibly influenced by a bit of pragmatism, due to having another dog) and carry as much as you can, but risk putting down is areas that you see as safe as you might your garden.

For us, our local golf course was closed due to the excessive rainy weather recently, but I know the green keeper and he was fine for me to exercise the dogs while the course was closed. I chose to let our puppy down for a few little wanders, as I knew that rarely were dogs allowed to roam free on the course so, to me, the risk was minimal, my judgement call.

I know that no vet would advocate this, but I read that more dogs get put to sleep due to lack of socialisation than die due to parvo et all.

Small step in the right direction today, Harry has had his paw looked at again by our vet, no more dressing and he also cut off half the 'dead' pad, to enable the young skin to harden off underneath. And, he's able to walk off lead, as long as he has his boot on. I have to clean the paw with hibiscrub too, as having a dressing on for nearly 3 weeks has lead to his paw being a bit, er, 'icky' smile

Had a 20 minute wander over our back field today, nothing for Harry but at least some different sniffs!!

ps - I remember our first breeder was happy to give the pups their first injections, but I declined, for the very reasons that you state above!

ps - moose - got me first reading list today! So, I took DD and her two friends to the cinema tonight, she has a planned sleepover. Clearly, at 12, I am far too embarrassing to be seen in her company, so I paid for everything (naturally....), made sure they were in the correct screening room, then sat in Starbucks, reading Think Dog! To be honest, it's not anything I haven't picked up on here, but interesting nevertheless smile

SallyBear Fri 21-Feb-14 21:25:05

Sorcha, could you ask the breeder to take your pooch back to the breeders vets for the second set of vaccs? As you've realised the early weeks are so important for socialisation. So irritating for you.

Re. Nipping. I rewarded Toby when he was quiet and calm with a treat. I also told the DC that they weren't to over excite him. He's a lovely calm boy and I think that he learned a lot by us treating him in a calm manner. Obviously he still has his mad five minutes, but that's normally about once a day. smile He will be 8 months old on Sunday.

moosemama Fri 21-Feb-14 21:54:11

Good to hear Harry is on the mend.

Think Dog was the very first canine behaviour book I ever read, back in the 90s. It's a great place to start.

What other books are on the list?

I also love The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and my more recent favourite is The Ahimsa Dog Training Manual by Grisha Stewart. Wolf books by David Mech are great for understanding origins and getting a perspective on why and how dogs are actually quite different from wild wolves.

I enjoyed reading The Genius of Dogs, just because it's a nice easy read, but also has a lot of scientific references which back up the more modern ideas of dog behaviour and intelligence.

We went out to a country park to walk the dogs today, although I had to stay in the car for the actual walk. I wrapped up warm and sat on a bench holding the dogs while the dcs went in the adventure playground with dh though. Unfortunately there was a woman there with a free ranging toddler, a pushchair she couldn't push through the mud and a loose staffie. The Staffie was super friendly and madly rushing around and jumping on every dog it saw and the woman just went into the play area, leaving the Staffie loose outside! shock

I thought she'd left, then all of a sudden the dog appeared out of nowhere and launched itself at my two. I wasn't ready for it and was holding them both in one hand while I rummaged for my clicker, as I was hoping to do some counter conditioning with Pip and Lurcherboy shot forwards taking Pip and I with him. I have very little strength at the moment and he pulled me off the bench! shock. He was barking, which is very unlike him, but I think he was just so shocked at this dog coming out of nowhere, not least of all because it came at him under the bench.

Dh came running over and the woman finally started to call the dog back just as he arrived and took Lurcherboy off me. I got our two into a sit and started treating them for watching me, but the woman was messing about with the dog right by us, saying "ooh you're a naughty girl you are", then walked off letting it loose again. As I watched she blocked the gate into the fields, just as a man was approaching from the other side with his two dogs. The Staffie then went through the fence and started winding his dogs up, so he couldn't catch them to get them on the lead and she just stood there messing with the raincover on her buggy, ignoring her dog creating chaos, while the poor man ran all over the place trying to get his dogs - who had been chased through the fence and were now heading for the car-park with a Staffie in hot pursuit - back. He had to climb through the fence, because she was blocking the gateway. When she did finally go through the gateway she was trying to push one of those Graco travel-system style pushchairs through ankle deep mud - up a steep hill, with a loose toddler and Staffie in tow. There are several walks at that park, all mapped out and some that are pushchair/wheelchair friendly - not sure what she could have been thinking. confused

Honestly it had to be seen to be believed. I was so annoyed, as the dogs had had a good walk, seen a few dogs but not had to interact and Pip had had lots of treats for looking but being calm and then giving attention when asked. The Staffie was lovely, but obviously completely untrained with appalling manners.

Fortunately Pip handled it very well - although Lurcherboy was clearly overexcited by all the loose dogs zipping about and showed himself up a little by bouncing around and barking initially, but then he's not had enough off-lead exercise while I've been ill, so perhaps I shouldn't be too hard on him. I was able to get both dogs to lie down and keep their attention on me after a couple of minutes and was actually pleased that Pip was still relaxed enough to take treats off me amidst all the chaos. He still managed to do some basic sits, downs and watches after the Staffie had gone, but whilst a little Cockerpoo (on lead) was watching from not far away and whining loudly at him.

Didn't do much for my nerves though. I came home, crawled onto the sofa and have been here ever since!

Well we pick up Eric tomorrow grin I've spent the week puppy proofing warning dc that they need to be less prone to dumping coats and bags so as to hopefully minimise how much gets chewed on.
The breeder says he is fully paper trained, she said he's one of the easiest pups she has ever known so how would I go about moving him on from paper to outside?
We have vets on Wednesday for a check up and his jab, is he likely to feel under the weather afterwards?
Eric's the last one to leave, will his mum be upset as we take him or will she be glad of the peace once more as she's an only dog with two geriatric cats?

Oh dear Moose, I hope you are ok. It does sound though like your dogs handled it well, particularly Pip, so maybe it may give you some encouragement in a roundabout way? Doesn't excuse the lack of control of the woman though, I suppose at least the Staffie was friendly.

Eric may feel under the weather after his injection. I have two dogs, the first was definitely sleepy the next day, the puppy hasn't had any reaction at all. Look out for slightly looser poo's too, which can happen.

I think the mothers get rather fed up of the pups after about 6 weeks to be honest.

Maybe start moving the paper outside, to the doorstep to encourage Eric to toilet there, or I think I might be tempted to bite the bullet and start training outside toileting from the off, dogs do seem to be able to grasp different routines.

Moose - the books on the list are - Dominance, fact or fiction, The Culture Clash, Don't shoot the dog, Clever Dog, and The Puppy Survival Guide if you know any, I think you do as we have chatted before about this.

There's some additional reading that is optional, which is all by John Fisher, plus some website to visit ref clicker training, dogstardaily etc that they recommend I visit.

Sorry about the typos last night, glass of wine on empty stomach!!

Sorcha1966 Sat 22-Feb-14 17:08:56

Thank you Moose and Sally; re nipping.

I think I wanted to know whats normal - I wasnt to train Lola to be very calm - I think she is pretty calm for a BC; and I was wondering what the 'best' I can expect really! I have told the DC not to play boisterously with her inside - save it for the garden. I also started putting her in the crate if she is over excited and nipping/jumping....(planning to get a stair gate next week so we can put her in the kitchen as I don't want her to associate the crate with punishment)

re vaccinations DH will take her back to the breeders vet for Vacc's no 2 at the end of this week. Then she can go out. 2 weeks later i will take her to our vet and we can nave a course of lepto 4. There will be 6 weeks when she is covered by lepto 2 but not lepto 4, but to me that is an acceptable risk since most of the 'out' will be for short times etc.

Moose, your post about the staffie made me feel dreadful, it was pretty much what Meg did the other day, went back from miles away, out of sight, round the corner, with a huge fallen tree in between to mug two perfectly harmless dogs. Aged 5 and 6 months her recall was perfect, apart from bikes. Like a reflex as she turned and came belting back. Aged nearly 8 months she seems to decide for herself whether she will come back or not. And a lot of very basic things like 'come' and 'sit' are similar.
So any advice from anyone would be welcome. Do we start again? Increase the rewards?

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 11:34:01

Barbarian, it wasn't that the dog ran up first time. I know pups most are going to do that at some point. It was that the woman went into the play area, shut the gate and left the dog outside, off-lead. Then when the dog started hooning around chasing other dogs and she actually did get it back with her, she made not attempt to put it on the lead. Then she blocked the gateway for other walkers to go in and out of the park, while she messed with the raincover on her buggy (it wasn't raining and the toddler wasn't in it anyway) and completely ignored the dog as it caused havoc for another owner and all 3 dogs nearly ended up in the car-park. I'm sure you were calling Meg and in hot pursuit. The owner of the Staffie completely ignored her dog and the chaos it was calling and didn't bother to put it back on the lead when it was with her.

At 8 months it's common for dogs to suddenly decide you don't get to decide when they come back or sit, or lie down - or do anything really. Just be consistent and go back a few steps in training. Just like when she was younger, lots of short sessions and jackpot rewards every now and then when she gets it perfect - she'll come through it. Pip is the same at the moment and now Lurcherboy is playing up as well - not sure why, unless he's just getting caught up in the excitement. (He's 8 ^years old, so has no excuse.) I would recommend using a longline for a while until her recall improves again. Lots of people start getting recall problems at this stage, when the dog realises that once they run off we're pretty much powerless to get them back unless they want to come - and of course getting your owner to chase you whilst shouting in desperation is so much fun! hmm It's just stage and very normal - this too shall pass and all that (as long as you are consistent with training and rewards).

Insanity I'd second Needa's advice. Either move the paper to just outside the door or dispense with it altogether and just start as you mean to go on, rewarding for going outside. Lilcamper has a great thing she cuts and pastes about easy toilet training for pups. I'll see if I can find it later for you.

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 11:36:02

Well that was easy - just did an advanced search on Lilcamper and 'toilet'! grin

Here's one of the threads she's pasted it onto.

basildonbond Sun 23-Feb-14 15:06:16

Barbarian - quite a few of us with puppies around 7/8/9 months are struggling a bit with teenage ishoos - maybe we should have our own thread so we don't scare the new 'puppy mummies'

Sorcha1966 Sun 23-Feb-14 15:57:55

Brilliant, My partner who so wanted the puppy, and who was is at home to take care of her, has left us.

SO now I have an adored 8 week old puppy and a full time job.

FFS. sad

Aww, thank you Moose (but Meg was awful) and she jumped the good dogs' owner and got his trousers muddy. And he said 'THEY ARE MY WORK TROUSERS!' I wanted to ask why he was wearing his work trousers in the middle of an almost entirely flooded forest but really he could have been wearing white satin and it wouldn't have been my business... His dogs were admirable. I do like meeting people with naughtier dogs than my own, it's just like when the DCs were toddlers and somebody elses was having a paddy in the supermarket. An awful smug guilty bliss.
Basildon, that's a good idea. I will start one nowhttp://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_doghouse/2006560-Where-the-Wild-Things-Are

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 18:50:14

Oh Sorcha I'm so sorry to hear that. flowers

Thank you for the toileting help. Eric traveled back really peacefully and happily which surprised me no end. He came in found the puppy mat against the back door and pee'd so he's obviously secure in knowing what he should do.
Then we've had periods of play and then snoozing. He's drinking but has barely touched his food even though it's what he has been eating prepared to breeder's instructions.
The breeder separated him from his mum on Friday when the last pup went and he has slept alone since. The breeder cried as he left, she has loved and played with him, he's already bringing his toy back when you throw it for him. She says he's a really clever dog.
So a good start I think but we'll see how we get on overnight.

moosemama Sun 23-Feb-14 19:24:44

Glad he's home safely Insanity.

It's common for them to be off their food when they first come home - and loose stools for a couple of days are also common, due to the stress of the move.

The breeder sounds really sensible.

Good luck with him. Hope he brings much fun and happiness to your household. smile

Sorcha - I am really sorry to hear your news, how are you going to manage the situation?

Glad Eric has arrived safely, I think it's quite normal for them to be a bit off their food for a day or so, so much change etc.

Harry was allowed out today for a walk, so DH and I went to a nearby public open space, usually full of dogs, which was great for Hector. We were there for about 45 minutes.

3 weeks ago, Harry would happily and easily run around like a nutter for at least 90 minutes without stopping, then be up for more later. Today, he was panting like an old man!! NO exercise at all for 3 weeks has taken it's toll, it was so funny to see him chasing his ball and come back tongue hanging out.

The puppy also is now sparko smile

Really sorry Sorcha. D'you think he'll be back or are you going to need to start looking for puppy daycare/dog walking nearby? Do you work near enough to pop home or work from home for a few days to get visits in with potential dog walkers?

I agree BB about the teenage thread! We had a gorgeous sunny walk in a new wood to us with wonderful recall and DH saying "isn't minty doing well" while I glowed with pride but shrugged it off in a "oh yeah he's always this good" sort of way. Met another 7 month old, black lab and they went ballistic with each other! Like long lost brothers, running through the woods not a bother about their owners desperately calling them. It was frantic for good 10 mins till DH launched into them and dragged minty away. Long chat with owners ensued! All very jolly as neither dog was under any control whatsoever and just playful but I did skulk away as I realised all the previous dogs had been older and calm/disinterested in playing, so nothing to do with my diligent training!

Time to research recipes for liver cake I fear.

Needa - that great about Harry - maybe it's easier for you if they're a bit more equal in terms of exercise need? Harry will probably regain muscle tone really quickly hopefully.

Sorcha1966 Sun 23-Feb-14 20:26:25

Thank you - I'm sort of overwhelmed to be honest

I don't know. I really don't know what I am going to do... I also have three kids.

we all love Lola - even in a week we adore her. So she stays. And she cant stay alone all day. She could maybe stay alone (in the crate) for 2 hours in the morning after I leave and before someone else comes in. When she is (much) older maybe a dog walker... but now...???

Am looking for a housekeeper /puppy minder/ childminder to work for me 3 days a week I guess ...

Sorcha - do you know anyone? Might be worth asking amongst your friends for names of potential childminders. Do you know any trustworthy teenagers that might be able to come in a couple of hours after you've left to let puppy out and play for a while?

I needed someone recently for an hour midday to cover me being at work from 9/10am till 2/3ish. I text all my friends, mums of my kids friends, etc and found a fabulous teenager who is doing A levels at local school and he comes round for an hour whenever I need him too. I pay him £10 and tell him to raid the fridge so it ends up being more expensive than a dog walker but it's perfect for me for now and means minty gets cuddled and company which I figure he needs more as a puppy than in the future when he'll be up for the group do walk. Any teenagers you know or dog friendly friends who would cover some of your time out the house?

NigellasGuest Mon 24-Feb-14 10:55:18

Sorcha I'm a bit worried about you, are you all right?

mint - you are correct re exercise levels. Today, we had a quick half and hour over the back fields, enough for the puppy and enough to keep Harry ticking over.

In addition, yesterday, we threw the ball a lot for Harry, while letting Hector just potter about, so we were out 45 minutes, but Hector, although tired, wasn't charging around for that whole period.

It's my hardest 'juggle' tbh with having two. Training is fine, as we just reinforce the commands for Harry, while Hector is learning them, but the two exercise requirements are harder and I don't have time to walk them seperately.

Phew it is hard work but a lot of fun it has to be said.Eric was pretty good last night a bit of a whine at 1am and 4am but quickly settled and was raring to go when I got up at 5.15am. He's either charging about deranged or zonked out and seems to be making his own schedule.
Still not all that interested in food although he did eat a bit of the chicken and rice I cooked for him, he seems more interested in playing with it.
He seems to have firmly attached himself to me even though I am probably the least soppy so he'll sleep by my feet and follow me round he's currently asleep on my shoulder.
He's on four small meals a day, how long should I leave the food down once he's finished eating? I don't want him to miss out on food but I don't want it to run into the next meal either.

moosemama Tue 25-Feb-14 22:11:40

Sorry Insanity and everyone, haven't checked in here for a couple of days.

Insanity. I wouldn't leave food down at all, if he doesn't finish it just remove it and offer him a meal at his next normal mealtime. Free feeding often leads to finicky eaters who graze all day, but never learn the proper feelings of hunger and having a nice full tum.

Well Eric had his first jab today and was very brave, it was the looking in his ears that upset him. His photo is now on their facebook page (Charlesworth vets) and dd is getting very excited at the likes he's getting. He's been declared fit and well so will be back in a fortnight for the second one.
I've been ruthless today at moving his food once he moves away and I think he's actually eaten more overall. The vet says there's no need for the chicken and rice and goats milk so could phase them out if I wanted to so will think about that.

moosemama Sun 02-Mar-14 22:37:07

Hi insantity, just thought I'd bump the thread for you and keep it visible for any new puppy owners that might be in need of support.

Hope it's all going well for you all.

Sorcha1966 Sun 09-Mar-14 20:45:48

any advice about how to encourage calmness n the lead? Lola is pretty calm most of the time but goes ballistic when you put a lead on her, she twists and bites the lead and growls, sometimes she spins round and round and round. We are only walking in the garden at the moment but I cant imagine walks are going to be much fun if she doesn't relax with the lead on..

Is Lola into treats? Could you make her sit for a treat, stay and while she's concentrating on you and your treat, clip lead on and quickly distract with treat then keep treating/distracting and start to walk?

Our puppy took a while to get used to his lead, like you in the garden to start with, and we needed or distract him LOADS as he found the lead really exciting. Treats worked wonders for us though for just about everything!

steppingintothecanineunknown Mon 10-Mar-14 16:38:57

Hello, can I join you!?
I am getting a puppy in three weeks and as a first timer, am rather clueless about what I need etc.
We have spent ages considering the actual decision about whether to get one and been very careful about it all. I work at home, dc school age and sensible, so lots of people for him to play with etc.

Please can you tell me your very best puppy tips for complete idiots first timers?

hmc Mon 10-Mar-14 16:58:20

I think I might need this thread - have a flatcoat retriever pup 9 weeks old tomorrow and feel a bit out of my depth ( despite not bring new to dog owning - I think I have forgotten it all!)

Well it's only been a fortnight but it feels like Eric has been here forever tbh. He's a funny wee thing and makes us laugh daily and I think he's far smarter than I am some days.He misses nothing no matter how stealth like I think I am being.
We've dropped from four meals to three which seems to suit him better and it means he snoozes from early evening instead of having a chase round at about 11pm.
We seem to be getting on alright, the house is tidier in some respects in so far as everything is up off the floor so that he can't chew but he has amassed a collection of toys that he has scattered around instead and the hoover is always out.

moosemama Mon 10-Mar-14 20:03:33

Busy now, but will try and pop back later.

Well Eric has been on his first lead walk out of the house/garden today. He was very cooperative although that might have been down to the bits of sausage I had in my pocket. He did bark and growl at an old man who wanted to fuss him but he was his new best friend once he fed him a piece of sausage (he is so easily won over) Gratuitous photo alert grin

moosemama Wed 12-Mar-14 20:42:57

Oops, bad week, didn't pop back after all. blush

Oh look at him -he's gorgeous! It's amazing the power that sausage has over them isn't it? Well done Eric on your first four-paw outing. grin

Sorcha What sort of lead are you using? Some leads might feel quite heavy and drag on the neck to a young pup. Could you start off with something like a piece of string and let it trail whilst treating her, then gradually build up the tension using treats as reward? An alternative would be a house-line (you can get them from pet shops) as they're really lightweight and you just leave them to trail all the time. This would get her used to being attached at the neck, iyswim and eventually she'd just forget it was there.

steppinginto what sort of things do you want to know?

Off the top of my head:

1. don't bother with paper training or puppy pads if you can avoid it. Take pup outside regularly (after every meal, game, sleep and intermittently in between) and give lots of fuss (preferable to treats) to reward them toiletting in the right place. If they do have an accident inside, ignore it and clean up quietly using a biological/biocide cleaner such as Simple Solution or the Pets at Home own brand. Anything else will leave a scent that you won't be able to smell, but pup will and that will encourage him/her to go again in the same area. You need to clean up as waste residue as possible, then thoroughly douse the area with the cleaner, leave a few minutes then blot off the excess.

2. Don't buy an expensive bed unless you're prepared for it to get wrecked. Puppies can be very hard on their beds with lots of chewing and ragging etc, so something cheap and cheerful like an old duvet with a piece of vet-bedding (available from most pet shops) or some blankets will suffice to begin with. Some people use a cardboard box with blankets in that they can replace when it gets damaged.

3. Don't expect pup to be happy sleeping alone at first. Personally I believe it's best to either sleep downstairs nearby for the first few nights or have them in your room. Being taken away from Mum/siblings is hard enough for them, but do bear in mind, in most cases, they've never been on their own for a second before you brought them home. Which leads me to ...

4. Start building up the time you leave them very gradually asap. Just a few seconds at first, perhaps starting with you on the other side of the same room, then a couple of seconds out of the door, then work up to minutes and so on. A tasty chew, treat or kong smeared with something yummy will help distract and teach them that your absence is a positive thing, rather than something to worry about.

5. Have plenty of puppy safe toys around ready to redirect them if they chew anything they shouldn't or are a bit nippy/mouthy. No need to scold, just shove the appropriate chewable item in their mouth and then tell them they're good in a really positive voice.

Very tired right now, so that's all I can come up with. Do come and ask any more specific questions though and I'll do my best to help.

Oh - and what breed are you getting ... and we will need gorgeous photos to coo over especially as some of our cute cuddly pups have now turned into lanky legged teenage hooligans. wink

hmc how can we help? I'm sure it's just new puppy nerves. I've had dogs for well over 20 years now, but I still panic with every newcomer. blush I love flatcoats, there are a few at our training club and they all have lovely temperaments and such beautiful coats. smile

steppingintothecanineunknown Wed 12-Mar-14 22:27:57

Thank you for all this fab info. I had started a separate thread as it went quiet on here but this is great too.
Lots to think about!!
I've ordered the crate and got some treats in from Ocado but we have a couple of weeks yet to buy other things eg. bowl. Still not sure how to transport him in the car. Concerned that a crate will take up the whole boot but not sure about other options. Argh!

He is a golden cockapoo. Hoping he will be low shedding but know it is not guaranteed by any means. His mum is a lively springer spaniel and dad is a calm and chilled poodle.

hmc Thu 13-Mar-14 13:44:10

hmc - it is new puppy nerves. I've also added on another layer of pressure for myself - we lost our Bernese Mountain Dog (age 7) just a few short weeks ago to a brain tumour and I keep feeling guilty that I took her for granted and didn't give her sufficient attention; it's like I am trying to make amends with this one and helicopter parenting the puppy! (nutter alert). At least I've realised what I am doing though and trying to ease off now. My friends did laugh though - have been over to a friends house with others for coffee with puppy and I was the first to leave because it was past pup's lunch time

If you have any advice on how to stop Beau nibbling my 9 year old son that would be great - we've tried offering him a chew toy every time he does it and saying "no" quite sternly, but he is still going for ds with his sharp little teeth

Stepping - re transport in the car, I have a travel fold away light weight tough fabric 'crate' that goes in the boot and does the job perfectly. I got it from Pets at Home. I'll try and look it up online and post a link

hmc Thu 13-Mar-14 13:44:44

moosemama! - see how I am losing the plot, I addressed last post to myself and not you blush

hmc Thu 13-Mar-14 13:47:55
moosemama Thu 13-Mar-14 14:50:29

Steppingin, how about a car harness if you only have a small boot? Bear in mind that car/travel crates don't need to be anywhere near as big as house crates, as you need the dog contained so they don't get flung around in the event of an accident.

hmc, I am so sorry you lost your Berner. We were supposed to be getting a Bernese when I noticed Oldgirl on a local rescue's website and couldn't just leave her there. We had researched breeders and were regularly emailing a couple about potential litters etc, but fate stepped in and we ended up with our gorgeous rescue girl instead.

I was/am very similar in terms of feeling guilty. We lost Oldgirl to osteosarcoma, very suddenly, last Spring and once we took on Pip I was wracked with guilt that we hadn't been doing anywhere near as much for Oldgirl as we did for him, but that's just the way it is, puppies are high needs for a relatively short while and eventually start to fit the family and settle within it's rhythms. That's why we choose to have dogs, because eventually they become part of the family and we start to compliment one and another. If they stayed as high-needs as tiny pups forever I am pretty sure less people would have dogs. People that want that level of constant activity choose high-energy breeds and do things like flyball and agility with them, most of us just want to end up with a well-rounded, easy going member of the family.

I am also pretty helicoptery when they're tiny, but as you are now doing, you have to try and make yourself remember that we want our dogs to enhance our lives, not take them over and if they do end up taking over they become a chore and that's not good for us or the dog. We all have to find the balance that works for us. Also, we need to teach them how to fit into our lives and if we start living our lives around them too much they never learn and become those well rounded family members.

I know needastrongone is very similar to us and put in 110% when she got her first pup, then found it all too much and no fun. She now has her second pup, is much more relaxed and loving it.

Re nipping, if shoving a toy in his mouth doesn't work, try getting your ds to stop whatever he's doing that's giving pup attention and turning his back. Nipping stops play immediately every time, even accidental toothy contact should be treated the same - the rule has to be no pup's teeth should ever touch human skin. If pup tries to jump and nip etc and is too much for ds, I'd recommend a short time out for the pup. No anger or scolding, just stop the game and lead him away to behind a dog gate or door for a couple of seconds. Then bring him back in calmly and get him to do something different, like a sit or down that you can reward.

A lot of it is age, consistency is the key and he will grow out of it as long as you always handle it in a firm, calm way. Lots of people on the New Puppy Mummy threads have had similar issues if you have time to do a search and read back through the posts and I think we've all come out the other side now with pups of 8/9 months old.

steppingintothecanineunknown Thu 13-Mar-14 14:52:22

Sorry to hear about losing your Bernese too young. Understandable that you are being extra-cautious with the new pup.

The crate looks ideal - can it be hooked up to the seatbelt (some can be right?) or is it loose in the car?

hmc Thu 13-Mar-14 19:04:41

Thank you for your very helpful and sensitive post moosemama - lots to reflect on there. I agree, your dog should enhance your life not encumber it. Tbh Beau seems to be a very happy go lucky puppy so I should just relax a bit. I will try that advice re the biting, sounds like it should work.

Interesting that you were looking at Bernese - I'd say Belle was the most loving, loyal and gentle soul and we were so lucky to have her...but I wouldn't go there again with a Bernese because their life expectancy is so short. Sorry about Oldgirl - I guess you must be coming up to her anniversary. They leave such a gap behind don't they sad

Stepping we have a grill divider thingy (I forget the appropriate terminology) in the boot of our car separating the boot from the passenger area and we secure the travel crate with a couple of bungees to the divider thingy so that it doesn't move around in the boot (if that makes sense)

moosemama Thu 13-Mar-14 19:44:48

I wouldn't have a Bernese now, despite what incredible and beautiful dogs they are. It's hard enough to lose them anyway, without it being so young. Dh has always wanted a Leonberger, but we won't be having one of those either for the same reason.

We still miss Oldgirl so much, she was a huge character and such a loving girl. I try not to remember anniversaries of losing people/animals, prefer to remember them on their birth or gotcha days (the day we rescued them). She was so full of life, right up until she was diagnosed, we had no idea she was so ill and it came as a huge shock to us. I always thought she'd be one of those dogs that went on forever getting creakier and smellier. She was just shy of 14 years old, so no spring chicken, I just always thought we'd have her for longer. sad

Just wanted to post to say that today Eric cried to be let out to toilet grin I am so proud, it probably equals the first wee on a potty with my PFB. He is such a clever dog which is just as well as I am probably clueless in all things dog and rely on these boards and others for advice.

moosemama Fri 14-Mar-14 14:45:21

Well done Eric! grin

More questions sorry, Eric definitely knows when he needs to go and asks to be let out, (if only potty training had been so easy wink) I also take him out about hourly.
It has to be said that he always pees/poops if he asks and only occasionally does on my supplement trips so how long should I leave it before I stop the extra trips and allow him to just tell me instead?
Eric loves to dig and we now have various items "buried" in the garden but the funniest thing is he "buries" stuff indoors too which actually means he places a treat or a toy in the corner of a room and then covers it with a piece of paper the size of a postage stamp or a stray sockgrin

SallyBear Thu 27-Mar-14 18:17:07

Just popping my head around the kennel door. How are you all? Toby (yellow lab) is 9 months old and full of beans. Has a couple if habits that if any of you can give me some advice/tips then is be grateful. First one is eating poo, his own. Ugh. Second is his love of hard plastic kids toys - Lego is great to crunch.
He gets two meals a day and is about 25kgplus.

basildonbond Thu 27-Mar-14 19:53:17

hello sally - i was wondering how you and Toby were the other day (we saw a lovely fox red lab who must be about the same age)

no advice on the poo eating front I'm afraid, although my sister's springer/lab cross did eventually grow out of it (when she was past 3 though ...)

As far as the lego goes, I've told the dc that anything which gets left in Fitz's reach is fair game - he's not allowed upstairs so they can be messy with impunity (as far as marauding puppies are concerned) in their rooms but I have to say it's resulted in much less crap on the floor downstairs!

Hello
Sorry for not posting, haven't been on mn much at all recently

Griff is still hard work. We did a five week puppy training course but they're not doing the next stage one so am really not sure to do next

Had an incident today where the draw of a boy fussing him was greater than my ability to recall him and he terrified a little girl (who backed into a gorse bush then claimed he had scratched her) I think she was scared of dogs full stop not just him.
Actually fucked me off as it's where we walk the dogs (loads of us do and we locals get to know each other) wind, rain and shine and as soon as the warmer holidays kick in the grockles appear and expect us to change our behaviour.
I had been worried about letting him off the lead as his recall is still getting there but of course I can't teach him recall without letting him off so the trainer had told me I had to. Feel shaken up by it, especially as I've been in bed ill all week and don't feel particularly strong as it is.
Sorry am rambling

Good news is he chews a lot less and when he does it tends to be appropriate things. He understand loads of commands, attention is another matter.

Any tips on teaching him 'quiet'? As he's got quite barky.

moosemama Sat 19-Apr-14 17:11:18

Hi Jayne.

Remind me how old Griff is now?

A lot of us have jumped onto a thread for slightly older pups, not wanting to scare off new owners here - but this thread sort of dried up after that.

I would highly recommend a harness and long-line for recall training. That way you retain a degree of control and he can still have some freedom.

For barking, try capturing the barking, adding a command/cue word to it and rewarding, then doing the same with 'quiet'. Basically once he's stopped barking say 'quiet' and reward. They tend to pick it up really quickly. I quite like this video for seeing it in action.

He's 4 1/2 months. I've tried the long line idea. Both my dogs seem to know they're still on a lead and so behave differently.
Will watch the video when I'm on a device I can. I was trying to tell him quiet and then rewarding him for being quiet but he seems to have learnt that as 'if I bark and then stop I get rewarded'.
No wonder I couldn't find you, I'll have a look at the other thread
Thanks

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