Flipping dog just went for me.(74 Posts)
Agggh, thought we were making so much progress.
Only had him two weeks for anyone unfamiliar with my other posts! Seemed fine temperament wise when we got him and by the following day he was snarling at me a bit and mainly Dh. Only when dd is around though, dog loves dd and is almost hysterical when she goes out, etc.
He was also snarling at other dogs, people out on walks, everyone at the vets waiting room.
We went to a dog trainer who said if he's snarling very nastily we should use "enough" as a command and if on a lead put him behind me when he does it.
This seems to be working well, he's now not snarling at other dogs or other people. Carpet fitter came today and she was fine with him. Still snarls at Dh sometimes and the trigger seems to be in dd's bedroom.
Then tonight I'm in dd's room, dd is there and so is dog. Dogs happily in his bed, I'm fairly close to him but not overly so and side on. Didn't move toward him and he just lunged at me and sank his teeth in. He's broken the skin but its just oozing a bit of blood. It's not a bad bite.
I shouted at him, not sure if that's the correct thing to do but I just feel he needs to be told that its totally unacceptable. I told him off and so did dd. dd picked him up and passed him to me and I put him out the room. We then came out after a short time and have made up.
I've had a lovely day with him previous to this. He's been sat with me all day, waggy tails and having his ears scratched. Nice walk and dog training this afternoon.
How are you feeling? Such a shame for him to do that after you'd had such a lovely day and seemed to have made so much progress. I think you really need to discuss it with a behaviourist as it's hard to advise without being there. If you think she was guarding DD's room then it might be best not to allow him in there for now? And to be very careful around DD, obviously. It sounds like your management/training plan is working in general, but since you didn't move it's hard to know why he went for you. I don't think internet advice will cut it, so can only really offer commiseration.
He is lucky to have such a dedicated new owner and I hope you can resolve it quickly.
Thanks, am feeling ok. Just disappointed and a bit disheartened.
I'm planning on asking the dog trainer to come to our house for a one on one session so they can actually see what the dog is like when dd is around.
But now I'm thinking do we need a behaviourist rather than a trainer? Though trainer comes very highly recommended and has very well behaved dogs himself.
I've found this behaviourist a bit of a distance away but I think they might travel do they look ok?
There's also barkbusters which I've heard some not good things about, but then its a franchise and the individuals will be different. The local one gets very good reviews
just not sure he has any qualifications
Am I remembering correctly this is the podengo?
Really feel for you as you are obviously trying really hard to get this right.
All I would add is that with any small number new breed introduction, it is easy for breeders to inadvertently introduce a few dodgy characteristics. There has been some concern previously raised over temperament in this breed
this is from the uk breed clubs last survey report (survey completed by owners, including many pet owners)
"Temperaments gave great cause for concern during 2009 when a Podengo at a Championship Show decided to bite the Judge, and this was then reported to the Kennel Club, the outcome of which we are still awaiting. Whilst we have had one or two Podengos previously that have been snappy on the table, this was by far the worst incident. This episode has put a dark cloud over the Podengo breed especially so early in its development in the UK. Temperaments are of the utmost importance when planning your litter, it is not a pleasure for anyone, particularly for pet owners, to have to cope with a situation where dogs have unreliable temperaments. I have discovered some consistently unsound temperaments in certain Podengo lines and would never introduce them, or more importantly, continue with them if this was the case with my breeding plans. Close breeding does not appear to help temperaments."
Im not saying you have inadvertently purchased the devil dog from hell, just pointing out that its not necessarily anything you are or aren't doing. it may be that this will be a dog with a challenging temperament and having come to you at 6 mths, you have missed a lot of vital socialisation time.
I think you need to find a really good positive reinforcement trainer or possibly a veterinary behaviorist who can both give you help and an outside opinion. If you are in the South east I might be able to suggest someone.
The local uni have a behavioural medicine clinic as well I've just found out. You have to be referred by your vet but I'm sure vet would do it.
The clinic is run by a professor of veterinary behavioural medicine. "Leading international authority on animal behaviour problems"
Sounds good.....not sure they'd come to my house though.
Where are you? I know a truly amazing woman in the NW.
Miggy, yes it's the podengo. I googled everything I could about the breed and never came across that.
Shit, I feel stupid.
That's a bit far from Manchester. I went on a socialisation walk with a group on Sat with my aggressive terriers- by the end they were walking beautifully-ish. The organiser is a dog behaviourist who unlike most isn't in it for the money!
You are right to wonder about qualifications - unfortunately anyone can set up as a dog trainer/animal behaviourist. You want to look for someone with training and membership of a professional body - you could start by looking for an APBC member. Or you could try the animal behaviour clinic at Lincoln University.
I typed a bit slow - I think you would have to go to the clinic at Lincoln rather than them come to you, but I've heard really good things about them; and Daniel Mills book (Life Skills for Puppies) is excellent.
Redwing, yes it was the animal behaviour clinic at lincoln I'd seen. £100 an hour plus vat for the first two hours and £75 plus vat per hour after that.
Eeek! Not sure I can afford that at the minute!
I probably can next month, but how many hours is an initial session likely to be?
Redwing, do you think that book would be good for us even though dog is now six months old?
When my friend went to Lincoln, they got the discounted rate available if you agree the session can be used in teaching. They went back for several sessions and got lots of homework in the meantime (different kind of problem to yours though).
It's a great book and I think every puppy owner should read it, but it won't really help with your specific problem. It focuses on the things you need to teach a puppy to get used to, hence the emphasis on 'life skills' rather than obedience. I think it is aimed at people getting a puppy from the beginning (i.e. what you should teach before the socialization window is up) but they will still be things you want your pup to learn, just that you might have to go at a slower pace. Maybe you could have a look at it in the bookshop or preview it on amazon? It's only thin so it's a quick read and the pictures are very cute.
Thanks. Book is only £3 on kindle so worth a punt!
Ill ask the vet to refer me to lincoln and see if I can get the discount rate.
Aggressive behaviour, especially when it has escallated in a bite, needs to be assessed by a professional who can come and see the dog in your own home.
I would also start with the APBC and discuss in advance with the expert what kind of methods they use to treat problems.
Please don't try to deal with on your own. The first thing the behaviourist should be able to tell you is whether it is safe for you and your family to keep and continue to train this dog or whether the dog needs a radical change in circumstances.
Sadly where I live sent coved by any apbc person.
i agree seeing dog in its own home can be useful but from what you post, eg your experience in vets waiting room, the behaviour seems pretty consistent wherever you are (and you have only had the dog two weeks so unlikely to have been caused by something you are doing at home). In which case the university set up seems ideal.
The advantage of a vet behariourist is that if they feel the problem is severe but workable with time, they can prescribe drugs (just for a short time) to get dog in a better frame of mind to learn .
Have a chat with your vet and see what they think, they have the advantage of having seen his behaviour first hand and will know whats available in your area.
You could also try here www.petprofessionalguild.com/DogTrainingMembers
If anyone you contact uses words/phrases like pack leader, hierarchy, dominant or rank reduction, hang up and keep looking because they could make things worse.
Agree with what everyone else has said about getting properly qualified behaviourist involved. Personally I would want someone to come to the house to observe the family/dog dynamics, but if that isn't possible, attending a clinic would still be useful in the first instance.
Also agree it's worth asking your vet, as you may need a vet referral to access some behaviourists' clinics.
If there's no APBC person in your area, you could try CAPBT/COAPE.
Is he still sleeping on your dd's bed? If the bedroom is a flashpoint, I wouldn't allow him access there until you've taken professional advice.
Sorry, mean to say that Jim Greenwood comes highly recommended by many rescue groups and hound owners (he doesn't just do hounds).
He's Cheshire based, but does home visits countrywide.
If your dog sees your dd differently from the rest of the family, is it wise to have the dogs bed in DD's room?
Call the nearest 3-4 APBC people, one of them may be willing to travel.
Ditto the others, remove the dog's bed from DD's bedroom and be very careful about contact between them.
The dog's behaviour is potentialy very dangerous. I don't want to panic you as little is served by panic but you should act swiftly to get professional advice to you, one to one in your home.
Problem is he barks non stop for hours and hours when we tried to have him downstairs. After ten nights we gave up.
I think you're right I Need someone who will come to the house so for now I'm ruling lincoln uni out. I've emailed this person www.naughty-pets.co.uk/about_jenny.html
We're about 15 miles out her catchment area but she's the closest accredited type person so I'm hoping she'll come. Fingers crossed.
I don't know the lady you have contacted, she seems decent on her website.
Personally I avoid anyone who talks about dominance, pack leaders, choke collars, electric collars, and other hands on techniques as there is a very good chance of making nervous/stressed dogs worse and getting bitten.
I prefer trainers/behaviourists who focus mainly on positive reinforcement and/or milder aversion techniques like preferably time out but possibly also noise and water sprays.
We do praise him when he's been good, ie; not growling when you come into a room. I know you're supposed to ignore bad behaviour but there was no way I could ignore him biting me. Someone's already told me to get rid of him, that I'm risking dd.
I don't think I am, but I'm worried my desire to keep him isn't letting me think straight.
I'm certainly no expert, but I'd be a bit bloody worried about dog being in your dd's bedroom until you get this sorted out, however much he "loves" her he's showing unpredictable behaviour...
I think you need to consider all possibilities, including re-homing him or to be perfectly honest with you PTS if necessary and there are no other options. However, don't stress yourself about 'what ifs' right now. You are doing the right thing by trying to get a professional in to help you and, very importantly, to assess the dog and give you an idea of the risk he presents.
Praise is definitely a good thing to do but he may need a higher reward to reinforce his good behaviour. Most dogs are food oriented so treating him for good behaviour, with super extra tasty treats for very good behaviour can be helpful.
What is this dog's history?
Have you spoken to the breeder about his behaviour since you've had him?
Got him from a kc assured breeder, she's actually the person who wrote the uk breeds report for podengos that someone referred to down thread. She's meant to be the top breeder in the country for them.
I've emailed her about what's happening and haven't had a reply.......
He was six months old when we got him, he and his brother hadn't found homes. I thought an older puppy would be good but now I wish we'd got an 8 week old one. I'm also beginning to wonder if he had been sold once and brought back to the breeder for his behaviour. He seemed lovely and friendly at the breeders.
Funnily enough as we left she said not to let him get too attached to one person in the family as he MIGht then get grumpy with others. I just thoutght it was general advice but now wonder if she knew something...
Hope you are ok.
I am concerned that, as you say, this puppy has actually had another home. If this breeder is highly reputable, then she surely would sell her puppies.
Poor you. You clearly are trying hard to work this out. Get a behaviourist involved and take things from there.
Not sure whether I would stuck him back downstairs? Would he settle with you rather than dd?
Its a bit odd that she hasn't responded to your email ,do you not have a phone number ? Something has obviously gone on with this pup in his past that has made him like this ,and that info might help you move forward .
Agree. You can't change what's happened, but knowing if anything did happen, then knowing what that thing was, will help shape his future.
I do have a phone number, but I'm not very good at stuff like this over the phone or face to face. If he has had a previous home she's never going to tell me so I think what's the point.
He wasn't living in the breeders home when I got him. She'd had other litters since so he was in outbuildings with his brother and some other dogs.
Mmmmm. Not saying anything about this breeder but it is a million miles from our experience....
Maybe you could come from the angle that you want to help this dog and would far rather just appreciate her honesty. You don't want to give him back etc etc. all very calm and considered etc. not making a fuss etc?
He came from here. plushcourt.com/Portuguese-Podengos-Pequenos-Wire-Coat
One of my colleagues asked if I was sure it wasn't a puppy farm. I really don't think it was...., I just think she had a lot of dogs! But puppy farms don't generally do crufts, and judge the breed, etc.
That comment from the breeder about attaching to one member of the family is worrying I think. Almost as if she knew he'd do that
because he already had It makes me think even more that he shouldn't be in that bedroom.
I hate to say this Viva, but it seems that particular kennels have been in trouble with the KC before for misrepresenting dogs they've sold here.
Not sure what that means for you, but it does suggest your suspicion about her being economical with the truth about your dog's history is more than likely correct.
Does he do what your DD tells him? It sounds like he is so obsessed with her he is seeing her as a resource that he needs to guard.
Until you get proper help it might be a good idea that he learns he only gets access to her if he behaves with everyone else. Could you have one of those sample carpet squares outside her room and train him to go to it. Then every time someone else comes in he has to go to it.
When one of mine was getting barky with other people and dogs the trainer I saw said I had to refocus his attention on me. So we did lots of training activities on walks and his food was divided up into 10 portions so 10 times each day we practiced a wait before he got to eat and the wait got progressively longer.
I know what you mean about preferring email but some people aren't very comfortable with it so I'm afraid I think you really do need to call the breeder and give her a chance to help you.
Give the breeder a call, any responsible breeder would want to know what is happening. She may have more information for you and she would be your first port of call in case you needed to rehome the dog.
I don't know the woman so take this with a pinch of salt, but a few things occur to me from the website:
- she is a show dog breeder. This is not always the same as breeding for temperament. I don't mean by this that all show dogs have terrible temperaments or that show breeders are not concerned with temperament, just that breeding for showing and breeding for family pets are two different things.
- she seems to have a lot of animals and to have overstocked a bit on puppies. With all the good will in the world it can become difficult to give each puppy the individual attention it needs during the crucial socialisation period when you have loads of other animals to look after. If your dog was not properly socialised as a young pup (6 to 14 weeks approximately) this could explain his problems.
- keeping the young dogs in a shed would be a worry for me. At that age they need to be exposed to the sights and sounds of a family home, the kind of environment they need to live in for the rest of their lives.
To quote from that article her solicitor said...
She suffers from ill health, is arthritic and has difficulty walking. Breeding dogs is her life and her way of earning a living."
If she's breeding for financial gain temperament may not be her first concern.
TBH having just read that link and combining it with your original post when you got the puppy ,about not registering him with the KC , ( if I recall correctly) , it does look like she may be a bit dodgy unfortunately . Not that that is any help to you now . Do dogs come under the trade description act ?
But then in the breed health article she wrote she said that she would never breed from a bad temperament dog. I had seen that thing about the kennel club ruling before I got the dog but kind of ignored the alarm bells as I thought that I'm not interested in showing or breeding so restrictions, etc weren't a concern.
Flora, you're right she said she wasn't prepared to kc register him due to the fact she sold him cheaply because of his age. Though I've since read it only costs about £12 to register.
God, I probably should have walked away....but then I told myself I've no interest in dog shows, etc. I just want a nice pet.
I am committed to this dog and will try and resolve the problems. If we do have to make any awful decisions I want to know I tried everything.
He doesn't seem a bad dog. I came home from work and he's running to see me, wagging his tail and squirming on the floor. Dh has been working from home btw, were not leaving him for long periods at all. I've changed shifts so the most he's left is for two hours, two days a week.
I was just in the sitting room talking to dd who was on a sofa. Dog was on the floor by that sofa. I then sat down on the sofa the other side of the room and he snarled and did a half lunge at me, but stopped when I told him off. Can't understand it, he'd been fine when I came in the room, fine when I was stood up and then when I sat down which wasn't any closer to him he went loopy. After he stopped snarling he was sat there with his ears flat against his head looking like an evil dog, rolling his eyes at me. Once he calmed down I praised him and he came for a stroke like nothing was bothering him.
I do think you should at least try giving her a call, to at least give her a chance of helping you deal with the situation.
Regardless of whether you are interested in showing or not, I personally, would doubt the integrity of someone that, allegedly, forges signatures on legal documentation, but, that doesn't mean she isn't a good breeder and doesn't care about her dogs and it doesn't mean she won't be interested in helping you. As you said, she certainly seemed to care about breeding for good temperament when she wrote the health article and we have no evidence that that isn't still the case.
If you can't face making the call, would your dh perhaps do it?
Ill try ringing her at the weekend. She answered my emails promptly enough when I was enquiring about buying a dog.
Don't start thinking the worst about making awful decisions. He is still very young and a good behaviourist should be able to help you sort him out.
Your last paragraph reminds me of the 'red dog rage' people report in some spaniels. I watched a documentary once where a trainer worked with a family to deal with a red spaniel that frequently behaved exactly as you describe to everyone except the mum in the family. He was a much older adult dog and they were basically at the point of deciding to pts but, with the trainer's help, they managed to completely rehabilitate him and it had nothing to do with a 'syndrome' of any sort - just family dynamics and a very confused dog.
Your boy is still so very young, a decent behaviourist should be able to get the bottom of all this and help you work out how to deal with it.
The behaviourist has emailed back and said shed be prepared to come if I really wanted her but she would have to charge mileage, which is fine.
She does point out there's another behaviourist slightly closer (six miles). And would I maybe prefer her.
But to be honest I don't. The other behaviourist doesn't have a website, I can't find any reviews for her. She just has a small blurb on the capbt website saying she's a vet nurse and trains gun dogs. Whereas the other one seems to be a full time, professional behaviourist so I think may have more experience.
Do you think having him castrated would help btw, he's old enough to be done?
I think that's something you need to discuss with the behaviourist.
It doesn't work for all dogs, for example we used to have a large breed, fear aggressive dog, neutering wouldn't and didn't make any difference to his behaviour. I would say you really need the behaviourist to untangle the root of the behaviour before doing anything else with him.
your dog snarls and bites and you have a child?
can you return it?
Ok, that makes sense. Thanks. I'm sure we'll get there. Like its been said he's a young dog and I'm prepared to put the effort in.
If the puppy had been kept in outhouses for 6 months and the first encounter with living in a house you would expect some problems. So the puppy may not have been homed already.
I am not sure where you are but (as other behaviourist was in Notts, guessing you are in that area) I cannot recommend Claire Arrowsmith enough. here She has sessions in Nottingham and other areas. She is highly qualified, highly skilled and WILL know exactly what is needed to help your dog. She is up there with the gold star of behaviourists.
The lady you have contacted will be ok for training but her COAPE course is only theoretical and will not cover aggression or guarding in depth.
I hope you sort it Viva it sounds like you will
Idirdog, do you think I'd be better off with a clinic based appt with Claire Arrowsmith or a home based appt with the lady I linked to?
It's just hard to know how good people actually are. But if the course she did maybe didn't cover aggression in depth then maybe she won't be the best?
I could always film dog been horrible to show someone at a clinic based appt so they see what he can be like.
Honestly think you need someone experienced and well qualified, dont get hung up on the home visit thing. Go to the best person.
Ok, so Claire Arrowsmith or Daniel mills ?
Have pmd you. Know a brilliant trainer/behaviorist who might possibly be in your area.
I'd go for Daniel mills personally
I know it's of no real use to you now...but that isn't how KC registration works, usually the entire litter is registered well before they'd be old enough to be sold on, the paperwork would usually be given to an owner when they take the puppy home at 8 weeks or so and they then transfer it into their name. If she'd ever intended to register him it would have been done 5 months ago, not when she'd found a buyer.
Claire Arrowsmith was a fellow student on an aggression course I did last year. She knows her stuff, and has impressive credentials.
Video can be very useful in clarifying the situation.
Yes, I suspect there's a reason why he couldn't be kc registered. Just not sure what the reason is, either his parents aren't who she told me they are, or hir mum has had too many litters too close together, or another reason.
How stressful for you.
Good luck with the behaviour expert.
Let us know how you get on Viva.
I would speak to both Claire and Daniel and see which one you could work with. I don't know much about Daniel and personally would prefer a behaviourist qualified in one or two types of animals rather than a general animal behaviourist.
Good luck Viva. It sounds hugely stressful.
I have never heard of this breed..please advise me of what it is made up from..I may be able to advise you x
Topknob, the breed isn't made up of anything, its not a crossbreed but a proper pedigree. It's a type of sighthound/multi sensory hound but looks like a terrier.
Good luck Viva. Let us know how you get on with the behaviourist. I think either of those would be good and you might as well take into account which is most convenient for you to get to. I looked at the pictures on the website - they are cute dogs! (but as well as three breeds of dog, she seems to have a lot of other types of animals too).
It very much sounds as if he's resource guarding, in this case your daughter.
I personally wouldn't have this behaviour in my house with children, as it's a disaster waiting to happen. If he's behaving like this as a puppy, what's he going to be like when he's matured?
All well & good that he loves your daughter, but what if further down the line you have other children or he starts resource guarding things and your daughter's on the receiving end?
Seriously - & I say this as a mother of 3 children who have all been raised in a household with working line GSDs - he should be returned to the breeder asap. He sounds as if he needs a very experienced owner & in my opinion doesn't sound a suitable companion for your daughter/family - he's going to need a huge amount time/money/training invested in him to sort him out, even then it's not guaranteed 100% to work.
Having a puppy/dog should be fun! You & your family should be enjoying spending time with him, bonding with him, not having to worry about how you enter a room & whether or not he's going to bite you! And what about when your daughter has her friends over, how will you manage him then? Put him in a crate, I hear you shout! What about when she's older & has her friends over when you're not there?
I confess I know absolutely nothing about this breed, but I do know about dogs & children living together. I would return him to the breeder & decide if you definitely feel this breed is the correct one for your family or not - if you do I would get an 8 week old puppy (but perhaps not from this "breeder").
I think it's admirable that you're trying to help him, but I really do think that you should just put this one down to experience and find another pup/dog that fits into your family better.
If you take just one thing away from my post, please let it be that you stop allowing him into your daughters' bedroom - this definitely should not be allowed(regardless of the noise he makes) until you've either had advice from a behaviourist or rehomed him.
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