Should you 'mirror' other owners?

(180 Posts)
WinkyWinkola Mon 13-May-13 09:20:13

I walk my dog (black lab) in a field. Occasionally there are other dogs there. He likes to greet the other dogs and run with them. If they aren't interested he leaves them alone.

Today he ran up ti golden retriever on a lead. I got told off by the owner because her dog was on a lead(had been attacked before) and was nervous so my dog should be on a lead.

Is this right? My dog bounced up to hers, hers lunges and growled and my dog runs back to me and goes back again and then leaves her dog alone to come with me.

Apparently dog owners mirror others.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 09:26:03

Your off lead dog should not run up to leashed dogs. Ever. It is very rude. And dangerous. If your dog ends up being injured by an aggressive on-lead dog you'd only have yourself to blame. In the eyes of the law, leashed dogs are under control.

My own two very nearly caught a very rude puppy yesterday. He darted at them with such speed and ill manners even my normally balanced and socialised terrier took against him and started growling at him. He was dashing at us, running away, dashing back, circling us etc. It was very difficult for me to stop my dogs getting hold of him. Had I not managed it and the terrier had grabbed him, he would be one dead puppy now. It would have been his owners fault.

It's good dog walking etiquette to put your dog on a lead/call to heel if you see a passing leashed dog. You have no idea why that dog is leashed, it could be fear aggression, illness, recovering from surgery or any number of things.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 09:29:19

No, not right. She has the problem, not you. I do try to keep my dog away from dogs that are on a lead for this reason though. I usually ask if the dog is friendly before I let her bounce up to a strange dog.
Mind you, I did this the other day and the woman replied that no, her dog was friendly, and that it was on heat and I should keep my ugly dog away, and that I was ugly too!

Branleuse Mon 13-May-13 09:32:16

if you cant call your dog back then its an accident waiting to happen

CalamityKate Mon 13-May-13 09:32:39

Very rude to allow your dog to approach others without asking first. Especially when the other dog is on lead. If you really can't stop it, you need to improve your dogs training or keep it on lead.

WinkyWinkola Mon 13-May-13 09:32:47

How can a puppy be rude?!? Isn't that like saying a baby is bad or good?

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 09:33:21

Why did the other owner have a problem? Her dog was on a lead and under control. It was OP's dog who was allowed to behave inappropriately. Many dogs, even ones with no issues, feel threatened if they are approached on lead by loose dogs.

WinkyWinkola Mon 13-May-13 09:33:31

But I can call my dog back. That's not the issue.

He came back no problem.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 09:35:51

Winky, dashing at top speed towards leashed dogs whilst barking is very very rude in the dogs opinion. Behaving the way that puppy was, is very rude even if my dogs were also loose.

Puppies should be kept on a long line or called back and leashed as soon as other dogs approach if they can't be trusted to recall away and/or approach other dogs politely, for their own safety.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 09:36:28

He still approached a leashed dog. You should have called him back before he did that.

littlewhitebag Mon 13-May-13 09:40:38

I think this is a tricky one. My young Lab is a bit over friendly with most dogs so i try to walk her off leash early morning in quiet places and i constantly scan for other dogs both on and off leash. However from time to time an on leash dog will evade my radar and my dog will be right up there. She is loads better through obedience classes and training to come to whistle but she doesn't always get it right. I know i have seriously pissed off some owners and i always apologise profusely then remain alert for them in the future.

When i walk on leash in a town i gauge from passing owners if their dog is friendly and would like an interaction or if we need to go past swiftly.

I do think though that if you walk your dog on leash on say, a busy beach, it is likely other dogs will come up to your dog and you need to accept this. We walked our dog on a beach yesterday and she went up to off leash dogs but came away quickly when called. This is such a massive step for us but until we tried it out somewhere we could not gauge her progress.

CalamityKate Mon 13-May-13 09:42:37

Its you who's rude not the dog.

If you are able to call your dog back why is it such a big deal to call him back before he gets to the other dog? It won't make any difference to you but if the other dog has issues with other dogs approaching, one bad experience could undo weeks of training. Why would you want that?

Whoknowswhocares Mon 13-May-13 09:45:08

Why did you allow your dog to approach TWICE? That is very,very rude IMO!
Sometimes our dogs will approach despite our best endeavours to prevent it (although by your question it doesnt appear that you were attempting to prevent him) but you say that he was rebuffed and came back to you
At the very least, you should have put him on leash and stopped him going back for a second attempt.
If you keep on letting him do this, it is only a matter of time before he gets bitten. Yabu.

CalamityKate Mon 13-May-13 09:46:39

littlewhitebag but the difference is, you're at least TRYING.

Of course things don't always go to plan no matter how vigilant you are. My dog isn't perfect but if she did run up to an onlead dog I'd be apologising and trying harder to pre-empt it in the future.

Whereas a lot of people take the attitude that their dog has every right to approach other dogs and that anyone with a problem should probably walk elsewhere!

wordfactory Mon 13-May-13 09:47:29

If I see a leashed dog I figure there's a reason. They're often aggressive (which is why their owners keep them leashed) or sometimes they have no recall (so the last thing their owners need my dog leading them off into the sunset).

I would leash my dog at the approach of a leashed dog, as I can't trust my dog to ignore them. Far too friendly.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 09:49:41

You have no idea why that dog is on lead - so you err on the side of caution.

It might be on lead for no particular reason, it might be in the middle of a training session, it might be dog aggressive, it might have a medical issue that means it has to have calm quiet walks...

ClaraOswinOswald Mon 13-May-13 09:53:16

If I see a dog on a leash I won't let me dog approach, it just isn't fair. Of course her dog lunged and growled, he was probably feeling threatened/protective. Unfortunately, if anything happened, the off-leash dog's owner would be to blame.

Mirroring is dog walking etiquette in my eyes.

plannedshock Mon 13-May-13 10:19:35

Completely agree leash off=up for playing, leash on=there's a reason. My dog is never on the lead, walks next to me everywhere but i always mirror other dog walkers.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 10:23:20

I'm actually having to change where we walk today because of so many people doing this. It's sunny here. Lots of dogs will be out, very few of them will be trained to keep away from leashed dogs. Walking our normal route will not be worth the stress to whippy or me. Which is a shame because we both enjoy our normal route, but to get there we have to pass off lead dogs while she is leashed, but after yesterdays incident (which utterly undid the last two weeks training we've done) it just would not be worth it sad

VivaLeBeaver Mon 13-May-13 10:33:20

Yes, she's right.

When I first got my last dog she was very scared of other dogs and had poor recall so she was leashed on walks.

I lost count of the number of times friendly dogs came bounding up to her and terrified her. She was very vocal and used to shriek and scream like a child very loudly.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 10:37:16

I have to do a constant balancing act with my monster puppy... I need to walk him and I want him to see dogs and people, but if he overdoes it his bad leg goes and I'll then have a few days of house rest and tramadol.

Because so many people let their off lead dogs run up to him and bounce about at him, and of course then he tries to do it back because he's a puppy, I'm having to walk him his whole ten minute walks in places that aren't as busy and at odd times to minimize it, which means yet again that his socialization suffers for it.

If a nice calm dog whether on a lead or walking next to its owner comes to say hello, that's fantastic because then he can say hello in a controlled way, but bouncy, too playful or aggressive means he gets over-excited.

Even if you think the other dog on a lead isn't scared or dog aggressive - could you at least spare a thought that that could be me with my disabled puppy, lol

WinkyWinkola Mon 13-May-13 10:41:35

Ah, you live and learn. I did actually assume that rural field and dogs = letting them hare about happy as Larry. Thanks all.

To be fair, I was throwing the ball for my dog and it went quite far away and she appeared with her leashed dog where the ball was.

Her friend appeared about five minutes later at my end of the field and had two small unleashed dogs who ran at my dog yapping and growling. It was this friend who told me to leash my dog.

So, I need to train my dog never to run up to other dogs?

onlyoneboot Mon 13-May-13 10:42:00

I have just started to let my dog off lead in a few places, so far when no other dogs have been around but this morning there were a couple of dogs we know who are ball obsessed on the field so I tried her off lead with hot dogs at the ready. She was fine until round the corner came an on lead bull terrier, known to be aggressive, and she sprinted for him, circled him and could have been in real trouble and, yes, it would have been my fault entirely. She came back but it took a couple of calls and went straight back on the lead but big lesson learnt and lots of training to do. I really want to let her run but she is wired to the moon and thinks everyone wants to play.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 10:45:08

Not so much train him not to run up to other dogs as call him back before he does it to an on lead dog or one that you might want to work out the situation first...though approaching slower is usually better, some dogs that are perfectly friendly still prefer a slow meet and greet.

badtasteyoni Mon 13-May-13 10:49:35

It's rude IMO. I don't have a dog anymore - but when I take the DC to the local park there are a couple of dog owners who regularly let their unleashed dogs run up to other dogs and children, and if the parents don't like it they get told 'it's ok the dog's friendly' confused

That is so not the point...

onlyoneboot Mon 13-May-13 10:50:57

...must add that after the field we went to the woods where I saw in the distance a dog off lead that has gone for my dog a couple of times and made her scared of going into the woods so I went a long way round (getting drenched in the process) to avoid the dog and its owner who seems to think that's fine. Walks can be a minefield!

Watching with interest for training tips to stop over friendly dogs running up to other dogs...

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 10:56:42

Other dog owners hate that phrase too badtasteyoni, it makes me come over all stabby when people tell me "He only wants to play with her", really? That's nice, but you see how my dog is barking, shaking, snarling and generally frothing at the mouth? Do you think she looks like she wants your dog to sniff her arse? And yes, he played with her off lead last week, but I told you then she is fear aggressive on-lead. No I can't let her off to play now. Your dog has already upset her, if I let her go now she will run all the way home in a terrified stupor.

Just wanted to echo the various points made. We walk our reactive dogs in a quiet area, at "off peak" times. One wears a yellow bandana (as per the Yellow Dog scheme) and the other wears a muzzle. Both are on the lead. Off lead bouncy dogs are the bane of our life and put back the months of hard work I've done on training our lovely old boy to cope better when meeting new dogs. And the phrase "Oh, he's only being friendly" should be punishable by medieval means!

WinkyWinkola Mon 13-May-13 11:45:46

A question. If you walk your dog only on lead does that mean it gets enough exercise?

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 11:51:31

Mine doesn't, but that's because he has a dodgy leg, so he gets 2 or 3 ten minute walks and it's nowhere near enough so I have to make up for that by keeping him entertained at home.

But there's a man at the bottom of my road with a husky type who doesn't get off lead because of poor recall, he walks it at least twice a day for a couple of hours at a time, he must cover about 7 or 8 miles in that time - that's way more than mine would get even if he was sound, lol.

Some people just pop the lead back on when there's a dog about and have them off the rest of the time.

So it just depends really.

ClaraOswinOswald Mon 13-May-13 12:00:49

I alternate with my dog depending on where we are and if there are other dogs about as he has poor recall. He was attacked by an off-leash dog who was far from his owner while he was on the lead with me. It was awful. I would not like to be responsible for that happening to another dog.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 12:07:25

While my terrier was in training for recall and dog aggression I would run or cycle with him or he walked for two hours daily, so yes, he got enough excerise.

He walked for 9 miles yesterday, half on lead, half off lead. But even if he'd been on lead the whole time, it would have been more than enough for him.

I do leash walks when I'm short on time, normally there are spaces where I will let them off, generally off the beaten track where I am unlikely to meet other dogs, while I am training.

ClartyCarol Mon 13-May-13 12:07:33

I've just googled the Yellow Dog Project, sounds like a good idea but I'd never heard of it before! If I'd seen a dog wearing a yellow bandana or ribbon on its lead them I would not have realised the significance of it. However I do always put my dog on the lead if I see an on lead dog approaching.

OP, you say your dog approached twice. I really can't understand why you would let your dog go back a second time when he had been growled at the first time. I feel sorry for the Goldie - what more could he do to say "Leave me alone please". If I was the other owner I would've been very annoyed.

Ours come off lead where it is safe to do so. Like many greyhound owners, we hire a secure field (were there yesterday) for blocks of time - this allows us a wonderful time when all four hounds can play, run and frolic. Two of the hounds go running regularly with DH. Some attend training classes, and we also go off lead on the beach or other safe, carefully chosen areas. We also go regularly to local sighthound playgroups.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 12:40:17

I still don't see why my dog should have to go on the lead because other dogs are badly behaved.
She doesn't pester other dogs but she is friendly. I'd hate to see her natural friendliness subdued.

ClartyCarol Mon 13-May-13 12:43:54

The other dogs aren't badly behaved as such - they may be frightened, nervous, unpredictable. Is it really worth risking your dog being bitten? My dog is friendly but I would hate for him to be attacked because I wasn't sensible enough to read the situation.

Whoknowswhocares Mon 13-May-13 12:48:39

Why does friendly equate to approaching other dogs regardless of the signals being given out, even when her advances are obviously (in the example here -growling) not welcome?
I'm friendly. It does not mean I wander up to total strangers and pester them! The etiquette is exactly the same for dogs

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 12:50:28

Kittensoft - it's not about putting your dog on a lead as such, just if you can't stop it approaching a dog who is on the lead.

If a dog isn't approaching other dogs it makes no difference at all if it's on or off a lead - why would I care if the dog in the distance if loose but not coming near mine? Lol

Kitten, it's nothing to do with being badly behaved. hmm

An on lead dog may be very elderly, or may be recovering from surgery.

Before her death last year, our darling old girl was losing her sight, had arthritis and had had a stroke. Bouncy cannonball dogs were painful and scary for her.

I've just made a yellow bandana for a friend with the additional wording - I am Blind. Again, my friend is fed up with people's dogs bouncing over to her elderly blind greyhound - he walks well on the lead, especially with his brother to guide him but finds unknown dogs approaching understandably scary.

Unless you have X ray vision and superpowers you can't tell from a distance why a dog is on a lead.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 12:52:49

My dog does not pester, and I don't see why she has to go on the lead. She is very well behaved and quick to realise when another dog is not interested.

Floralnomad Mon 13-May-13 12:54:02

kittens you don't have to put your dog on a lead just ensure that it doesn't go near a dog that is on a lead . I don't put mine on a lead when I see dogs on leads because I know that my dog will not go over to them because he is anti social and if we are on a narrow path he will stay right beside me until they pass and not attempt to say hello . If your dog is likely to approach the on lead dog you need to have enough control to stop your dog or put yours on a lead before he can get to the other dog. Its nothing to do with stopping your dogs natural friendliness, she can be friendly with off lead dogs .

idirdog Mon 13-May-13 12:55:24

On a walk this weekend my dogs were hounded by an off lead dog that continued to approach my dogs time and time again. I did wait for the owner to recall his dog but he did not do so. I put my dogs back in the car and then walked back to the owner and walked really close behind him, he was obviously unhappy with this and after swearing at me and talking about his personal space and me being a head case he threatened to call the police.

I reminded him that this was exactly what he had allowed his dogs to to do to mine........

Dog greetings should be supervised and only after agreement with both owners.

I awaiting for the police to knock on my door smile

idirdog Mon 13-May-13 12:56:26

"I awaiting for the" and the grammar police!! I am waiting......

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 13:02:22

My puppy is interested though - but he's not allowed to play with other dogs, he's already had one surgery and is going to have to undergo another one in the next few months. He's 10 months old.

He sometimes is sound enough to get off lead for 5 minutes a day, he can't play fetch or tug and last week rolling in some freshly cut grass got him 3 days of house rest a vets visit, 4 days of tramadol and he had to miss his training class. He loves his 10 minute sniffing about on his lead walks.

You letting your dog come and play with him even though he's on the lead could stop him getting out for another 3 days and cost me yet another vet visit...or possibly mean we have to move his next, more invasive surgery up even though we're trying to wait for him to stop growing to give it more chance of working.

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 13:05:20

If nothing else it's just good manners to assume that another dog is on the lead FOR A REASON...

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 13:05:54

kittens, are you being deliberately disingenuous?

Can you really not understand it isn't about you and your dog??

Off lead dogs running up to mine is the bane of my life.

Every time I make progress rehabilitating/retraining my dog (she was badly attacked last year) some off lead dog comes running at her and scares the shit out of her.

Despite asking the owner to recall their dog, they still let them run up to her and ruin weeks of training.

IMO the right thing to do when ou come across other dogs wether on or off lead is to call yours to heel then check with the other owner if its okay to let them have a sniff and a play.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 13:18:32

Ummm, but it is about my dog.
I don't have the luxury of huge open spaces near me. If I put her on the lead every time we were close to another dog then she'd never be off it. I take the point that a dog may be ill, etc, but if you have a badly behaved dog then I think it is up to you to keep your dog away from mine and get some training.
As far as I can see it is natural for dogs to greet each other and have a bottom sniff.

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 13:21:15

The point is kittens, if you are in a large communal space, it is about ALL dogs. The rule is that offlead dogs do not approach onlead dogs. The end.

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 13:22:29

Your point of view is that of an astonishingly unempathetic and wildly egocentric individual.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 13:23:25

But if it's on a lead they are keeping it away from yours. hmm

If your dog isn't well enough trained to come back to you when you tell it to - then it's your dog that is being badly behaved.

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 13:23:39

And if your dog runs up to greet an onlead one and is ripped to shreds, how will you feel? How much consolation will it be that it wasn't your "fault" because your doggy-woggy deserves to do as it pleases?

PseudoBadger Mon 13-May-13 13:24:30

But if it's on the lead then it is away from your dog. So do likewise.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 13:26:41

Kittens, your friendly dog running up to my fear aggressive dog to say hi, is enough to have her on alert for the rest of the walk, essentially stopping our training moving forward that day or even setting us back a few days/weeks in our training depending upon how enthusiastically your dog says hi. After yesterday's puppy incident Whippy was skittish even off lead, which is just what I need right at the start of summer.

Luckily, she has a playdate later with a fellow pointy puppy owner, so I'm hoping with a controlled off lead greeting she might calm down and today's skittishness will just be a one off.

If you'd popped your dog on it's lead and asked from a safe distance whether it was okay to greet I'd be happy to let my dog off to play, so long as we were not out solely to practise BAT. If you wait until your dog has already said hi, my dog ends up upset, I end up telling you to control your fucking dog, which upsets both me and you and no-one wins.

Surely it's not much to ask you to call her back and restrain her while we walk past (it would take all of a minute), whereas uncontrolled greetings cost me hours and hours of training time.

WynkenBlynkenandNod Mon 13-May-13 13:33:07

DH was saying about the Yellow Dog Project thing yesterday, there are signs up in the local woods about it, good idea, a visual reminder of basic dog walking etiquette.

Kittens you don't need to keep her away from all dogs, just onlead dogs. This morning I walked Plog. She played with two dogs and avoided one on lead who doesn't like other dogs near him. I use a ball as now she's a bit older she's become focused on it and I can use it to get her to walk past other dogs. It wasn't hard, everyone was happy. When she was younger I was like a Meercat, bobbing up and down to see what was coming and I'd stick her back on the lead and treat if there was an onlead dog around.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 13:36:25

my dog has been attacked, by dogs off the lead. She became fear agressive after that, but was soon trained out of it, mostly by not standing for any nonsense and by encouraging her to play with other nice friendly dogs.
Hullygully, I think the poster who is getting personal and insulting is the one with the problem, don't you?

TooMuchRain Mon 13-May-13 13:36:57

I think it's best to call them back because you don't know why the dog is on a lead. My dog has just had an op on her legs and I am really worried about walking her for just this reason. She needs the exercise to help her get better but really doesn't need a dog knocking her when she has just been cut open!

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 13:37:45

Yellow Dog Project hasn't reached our town yet. I'd need a neon yellow flashing sign for it to help, even then I'm sure there'd be certain owners, like Kittens, who'd think it was okay to ignore it.

We practise BAT, which means as soon as whippy starts showing signs of being uncomfortable, we turn our heel and walk away quickly while I am make soothing noises at her, even though we are quickly turning away, which clearly indicates we don't want to say hi, people still don't get it <sigh>

I had hoped to get through summer doing mainly off lead walks, as she's normally fine off lead.

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 13:39:26

No, I think the person who refuses to acknowledge and live by basic manners is the one with the problem.

Floralnomad Mon 13-May-13 13:40:53

kittens I think you are being deliberately obstructive ,if you're not I feel very sorry for your dog because eventually she will approach the wrong dog and get badly bitten .

Lonecatwithkitten Mon 13-May-13 13:41:04

Kittens you are falling to appreciate that these dogs are not made this way something bad happened them to give them this response.
In the vast majority of cases the owners are working really hard to improve this situation, but actually the only way to improve is to get out and take part in normal life.
This relies of other dog owners being thoughtful and considerate to help improve the situation.
If your dog is attacked when she is the lead she could end up being one of these dogs and then you will hope that everyone else will be considerate to you.
If your dog has excellent heel control and never deviates when you command this then you don't need to put her back on the lead just use your heel command.

ZangelbertBingeldac Mon 13-May-13 13:44:38

My dog is kept leashed because she's profoundly deaf and therefore her recall just isn't there.

I let her off at an enclosed field, but nowhere else.

The vast, vast majority of owners don't let their dogs run up to mine.

I can think of only one occasion, actually where someone let their cocker spaniel run up to my dog and it chased her - she was on lead and unable to get away and therefore felt very vulnerable and was twisting and turning on the lead and cowering in fear.

The owner then made a comment like "oh dear, what a cowardly dog, what one earth is wrong with her" grr angry

But, to answer your question - yes, etiquette wise most dog owners either leash their dogs or hold their collars when we pass.

Viviennemary Mon 13-May-13 13:46:52

I don't think dogs should be bounding up to other creatures whether they be human or animal.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 13:48:00

I wish I lived near you Zangel, loads of owners let their dogs run upto Whippy sad I can only assume it's because she is so tiny, she couldn't do much damage even if she wanted to.

I bet they wouldn't do it if I had a Rotty on a lead.

Oddly more people avoid us when she is muzzled, even though she could do no damage at all when she is muzzled. We use muzzles on nice weather days to get people to stay out of our way. Maybe I should buy I spiked collar to match her muzzle and get myself a nice hoody? grin

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 13:54:07

I've just said that my dog has been attacked, and I've also said that she is not a nuisance, just friendly. There's really no point in talking to people who aren't listening.
Hoping that there is just someone who is listening i will finally say this, where I used to live, in not a very nice area, there was a very small fenced dog park. On good days there were lots of dogs happily playing in it. Unfortunaly there were some selfish people with badly behaved dogs who used the park and it became a no go area. These people encouraged other dog owners to stay out, which we did.
I had a limited period during which I could take my dog for a walk, and often she wouldn't get to go to the park because of the dickheads who couldn't be bothered to train their dogs.
Some of you lot are heading in this direction. Why are you making your problem my dog's problem?

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 13:56:58

My dog has no problem when she is left alone to walk and train at a safe distance from other dogs. If loose dogs run up to her that is their owner's problem. My dog is controlled and in training. Our only problem is entitled and lazy owners who won't or can't be arsed to train their dog to recall.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 14:01:21

But if she's being friendly too near my dog - then she is a nuisance...

D0in - mostly yes, but you'd be surprised how often they still let their dog run up, even though he's on a lead, I'm standing off the path to let them by and quite often I've got his front legs up off the ground to stop him jarring his leg. Mostly people look at him and assume he's some sort of devil dog (understandably so to be fair, lol) but the odd one seems to think it's not an issue to let their dog come and say hello hmm

fishybits Mon 13-May-13 14:14:39

Kittens. How did you train the fear out of your dog and what do you mean by "not standing for any nonsense"

BastardDog Mon 13-May-13 14:29:57

I've always had Patterdale Terriers. They are notoriously difficult to train to recall to a trustworthy standard. For that reason I walk my dogs mainly on lead. In the main I have no problem with friendly dogs approaching and greeting my dogs, I think it's an important part of keeping them socialised.

However when training them as pups or in their more advanced years when ill health problems inevitably arise, it has spoilt many a walk by off leash dogs interrupting training, harassing nervous pups or being generally bothersome to grouchy, old, ill dogs. In the main though I accept having to contend with other owners differing views as part of dog ownership. I am the meekest person and will avoid confrontation wherever possible.

But, there's one lady that lives near us that owns 3 dogs which she always walks off lead. One dog is fine but the other two are terrors. They have no recall and will run up to my dogs snapping, snarling and circling for the longest time until their owner catches up with them. If I can spot this woman coming I will turn and go a different way, but a few weeks ago it happened again and I blew my top at her. She was very taken aback and to her credit apologetic. She just didn't seem to 'get' that this was a problem. I think she just saw her dogs as a bit spirited. hmm. She is now very good at spotting me and getting her dogs under control so maybe I should have had the courage to have spoken up sooner.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 14:57:47

Fishybits- IMMEDIATELY pulling away, stern words, and immediately on lead and taken out of the park. Ignoring totally for the next few minutes. Naughty step. Then make up and cuddles.
On the other side, seeking out nice friendly dogs and encouraging play so that she sees meeting other dogs as a good thing.
This has really worked for me and I was in despair for a while.
There are plenty of places where dogs are not allowed off the lead, I'm really gobsmacked by the amount of people who take their dogs to off lead places and then expect you to put your dog on the lead because their dog has problems.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 15:04:12

Hang on, why should I stick to walking my dog around the boring streets just because you cannot be arsed to train your dog to recall? hmm

Most parks, beaches and woodlands are both on and off lead. All users have a duty to be considerate to other users. I keep my dogs on lead if they have potential to be aggressive, the least you can do is keep yours out of my way.

VivaLeBeaver Mon 13-May-13 15:08:04

Kitten, if your dog doesn't have good recall then its your dog that's been badly behaved. You may view your dog running up to others as been friendly, I'd view it as a dog that needs training and an irresponsible owner.

TeaTowelQueen Mon 13-May-13 15:11:02

I always put my dog on a lead if I see an approaching dog on a lead. It's just good manners.

If mine is on the lead and I see another approach off the lead, I unleash my dog if in a safe area - they are equal then, I think being equally restrained/not restrained is important in dog terms from my own observation of their behaviour

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 15:14:57

She does have recall. For goodness sake! I just don't want to put her on a lead because she is the vicinity of another dog. She doesn't want to talk to unfriendly dogs.
You're not making any sense re why should you have to walk round the boring streets. Your dog is the one with the problem. Why should my dog have a boring lead walk.

mrslaughan Mon 13-May-13 15:17:58

I always leash giant puppy, when I see a dog on a lead as he can't be trusted not to charge up..... Though I am also teaching him to approach other dogs calmly, as even the friendliest dog can be intimidated by 60kg bounding towards them.

The situation you describe is tricky as your dog was a way away from you, when she entered the field..... But in that situation I would be calling giant pup back - though don't know whether he would listen until he had said "hello" ( though he doesn't like be away from me - so doesn't venture far away).... But rich of her friend to give you a talking too when her digs are off lead though....

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 15:18:52

Unleashed dogs should not approach leashed dogs.

What is hard to grasp about that?

It's a rule of modern civilised society, like don't shove an old lady out of the way to get a seat on the bus. Y'know, a manners thing.

WynkenBlynkenandNod Mon 13-May-13 15:25:37

Kittens, it is very very simple. You train your dog (which you clearly can as you've just said so) in which ever way you want to only approach dogs off lead or you call her back to walk by you when you see a dog. There are lots of ways to do it, pick one, be consistent, job done. I might put my dog on lead if I'm in a hurry and need to get somewhere without her stopping to sniff every pmail. I'm unlikely to do this but if I do I expect other owners to not let their dogs approach mine unless I say it's ok.

It is very easy, good manners and part of owning a dog in the UK. Look at it the same as teaching your children please and thank you. Don't spout drivel about it being a place where dogs are allowed off lead and other ogs having problems. It is basic manners and a part of the dog owning package same as picking up dog crap. Don't like it, find a field with no dogs around. Walking in public places observe basic etiquette, and however much you argue, not letting your dog approach an on leash dog is basic etiquette. If you don't observe it then you are at fault whatever you say.

Lonecatwithkitten Mon 13-May-13 15:31:10

There is no such thing as public 'off lead places'. The law states that all dogs should be under close control. The etiquette we are putting forward is merely an expression of the 1992 Dog Control Act.

My dog is very nervous of other dogs (not too great with humans either), is getting on in years and has a dodgy leg. So she is on lead for a good part of her walk.

It gives me the screaming rage when other walkers let their dogs bound over to her with no thought as to WHY she is all leaded up.

If I yell to the owners they will oblige, usually with a patronising smile and a 'Oh, he just wants to play!' which is no good to me when my dog has strained her poorly leg and wet herself in fear.

fishybits Mon 13-May-13 15:45:48

Thanks Kittens. I honestly don't think that you had a really serious fear aggression problem with your dog if you were able to deal with it using those methods. I have a trained gun dog. She recalls instantly at all times and ignores other dogs when she's picking up. When she's not working though for some reason she really dislikes strange dogs. Her body language when another dog comes up to say hello screams leave me along, there's a 7 second pause and if the friendly dog doesn't back off then my dog very loudly tells it where to get off and it sounds as though she's killing it even though she doesn't actually touch the other dog. I put her on a lead when I see strange dogs approaching, she is off lead otherwise.

It's very frustrating when other dogs owners don't respect the choice that I've made for my dog, don't recall their dog fast enough and then get upset when my dog tells theirs off.

My other dog is super friendly, goes whizzing up to everyone but I put her on a lead if I see another dog approaching on lead. It's about respecting what the other owner has decided to do with their dog. It's no skin off my nose if my dogs have to walk to heel on a lead for 30 seconds, I view it as training. smile

Sheesh!

Naughty step for a dog? Are you serious?

CalamityKate Mon 13-May-13 15:50:43

God it's not rocket science.

I'm walking my dog off lead. Someone is coming in the other direction with a dog onlead. If we're on a field I swerve, get my dogs attention and call her to heel until they've passed. If we're on a narrow track I call her to me, pop the lead on until we've passed and as soon as we've passed I let her off again.

At the most, she's spent maybe 30 seconds onlead and we haven't caused anyone any hassle.

Anyone who claims that this is too big a deal is either shockingly self centred or they're making excuses for not being able to control their dog.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 15:55:01

I will reiterate again, the law clearly states that when on leash my dog is not a problem. She is under control. If yours bounces over to her and gets hurt by her, that is your fault for failing to control your dog.

I don't want your dog to have lead walks only, I simply want you to call your dog away before it approaches mine. That is all. It would take us a minute to pass you and then you can let go of your dog.

ExcuseTypos Mon 13-May-13 15:56:52

This makes me so angry.

My jack Russell has absolutely no recall so she has to be on a lead. We live in the countryside and I'm sick to death of stupid people letting their dogs come bounding up to my dog. She's tiny so feels very threatened by a large dog running at her. I feel the same actually.

She then gets very frightened and then aggressive.

I've stopped being polite when idiots people let their dogs do this. I've started shouting at them "My dog will bite, get your dog away"

That usually does the trick.

WynkenBlynkenandNod Mon 13-May-13 16:01:16

I always though it was very obvious what to do when you see an on lead dog but obviously it isn't as lots of people have had bad experiences. Is there any where a code of conduct thing for responsible dog owning ? It seems to need to be down in black and white for some people and is obviously an issue hence the Yellow dog project.

topknob Mon 13-May-13 16:17:30

Kitten how about you allow your friendly dog to sniff my dogs bum when she is on lead. Your dog won't do it again angry

RedwingWinter Mon 13-May-13 16:22:44

I hate it when off-lead dogs come bounding up to my on-lead ones. The owner inevitably shouts 'my dog's only being friendly' when in doggy-language it's actually being very rude, because instead of approaching slowly on a nice curve as if disinterested, it's made a straight bee-line for us and is all bouncy.

Kittens, many dogs behave differently on a lead, so even if they would be friendly off they may be defensive when on a lead.

I hate it more when dogs actually attack mine, and there are too many dogs in my rural community that do that. So we cope as best we can when dogs run up, but I will usually shout at the other dog to go away. Altho I'm not practising BAT, I have a nice turn-and-go that I do with Dog2 before he starts to get excited. Every time we make great progress some other dog runs up to him and it is driving me nuts.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:24:21

Well I just feel a bit sorry for you lot with your bad tempered dogs and inability to read.
Knob, you must be so proud.

Hullygully Mon 13-May-13 16:27:08

yes kitten you're right and every other dog owner in the world is wrong

well done!

WynkenBlynkenandNod Mon 13-May-13 16:28:44

Yes clearly we are all thick twats, my sincere apologies.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:29:44

Fishybits, before training the dog i established a very good relationship.
You don't know what she was like, but she trusts me and is very eager to please.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 16:30:15

Inability to read? hmm

You know when 100% of other posters think you are wrong? They just might have a point...

AliceinSlumberland Mon 13-May-13 16:30:52

Kitten what about dogs who are elderly or ill, for whom it hurts to turn suddenly or be chased and just want a quiet sniff around the park?

Not all dogs are on lead because they are aggressive, but some are, and if you let your dog run up to it you are responsible for any injuries to your dog. Why would you put your dog at risk like that?

You sound seriously entitled kitten

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:32:05

Oh, is every dog owner on mumsnet at the moment. I meet a lot of dog owners every day, 99 percent of which are very friendly and love my dog. She's a very popular girl.
I'm guessing that you guys don't meet so many.

ExcuseTypos Mon 13-May-13 16:32:24

Kitten you obviously don't know much about dog behaviour. Maybe you should do some research?

And my dog isn't bad tempered. She's just reacting very normally, to a dog usually about 10 times her size, who comes rushing towards her and me, without any warning.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:33:57

Exit - yup. You sound seriously cliched.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:35:11

Excuse- I am the one with the well behaved dog, remember?

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 16:38:14

RUNNING UP TO LEASHED DOGS IS NOT WELL BEHAVED FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK. IT'S JUST NOT. IT'S RUDE.

FFS it's like trying to educate milk. I give up. Kittens you are right, everyone else on this thread and all of the behavior experts behind BAT, Yellow Dog etc. are wrong. I bow down to your superior knowledge.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:38:34

Well, getting you lot to realise how daft you are has been fun, but I must take my girl for walkers now.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 16:40:19

One last thing. Learn to read, please. I have never said that I let my dog run up to leashed dogs. This is your imagination.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 16:40:51

My dog's perfectly lovely, he's just young and ill... but if you're happy that you've caused someone else's dog pain just because you can't be bothered stopping your dog from saying hello - then no I suppose it's not your problem. hmm

Yep that's me, one big cliche

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 16:43:23

'I have never said that I let my dog run up to leashed dogs.'

Then what are you arguing about? It's been said more than once that the issue is not whether you leash a dog or not, but whether it comes over... If an off lead dog is minding it's own business nowhere near mine, that's not a problem.

And what you said is that you try to keep your dog away from on lead dogs, not that you do.

Hth

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 17:15:02

I have a Labrador. The Tim Nice but Dims of the Canine world who take a while to learn boundaries. The most forgiving and lovely dog owners, are the ones with fear reactive dogs.

Because I have fucked up when training, Of course I have, I've not spotted someone approaching a short cut in a hedge before HullyPup has heard them. These owners are the ones who when she doesn't recall immediately, simply comfort their dog whilst I run madly in the general direction of AWAY till she recalls.

They accept my apologies with good grace, and empathy.

Not like other owners that shout, oh she's fine, give her treats and fuss, and reward and encourage her to behave badly on another occasion.

Usually they are also happy to walk and chat with me once both our dogs are leashed, and I have made some nice hound slave friends this way to walk the fields with. smile

And if you have a 100% bombproof dog who can walk to heel off lead with no distractions than other dogs on or off lead are not an issue as they won't approach them.

If they will approach them for a sniff than you don't have a perfectly trained dog and you need to lose a lead.

As far as the law and insurance companies are concerned, you dog is controlled if it is on a lead. If it is off lead it is not. So for everyone's sake its easier simply to pop a dog on the lead for two minutes.

ClartyCarol Mon 13-May-13 17:18:57

Bloody hell, she's not going to give up.

ClartyCarol Mon 13-May-13 17:21:12

Oh. Posted that before I saw she's gone to take her dog out to pester some poor sod who wants to be left alone.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 17:54:37

Lurcherboy is have somewhat of a recall regression since we lost oldgirl. He's missing having a canine playmate and wants to say hello to every dog we meet - but, I don't allow him to.

If another dog is off lead near us and the owner doesn't put him/her on the lead when they see us approaching, there is usually some sort of eye contact, head-nod and smile type signal between owners that confirms it's ok to let him play. If I read any other body language from dog or owner I don't let lurcherboy approach.

It's actually quite funny at the moment, as having changed dog-walking times I keep coming across the same few dog-walkers, but we always seem to be equally spaced out around the field and just that bit too far for both owners to be near any playing, iyswim. So, we are all keeping our dogs loose, but close, despite the fact that all indications are that the dogs will probably place nicely if they ever get close enough to meet. Once we have met them and allowed the dogs to play, I will still check with the owner if it's ok for my dog to play with theirs, as you never know when a dog may be having an off day, might have had a bad experience with another dog or is ill or injured etc.

It's not easy with him being canine pal deprived just at the moment, as his motivation to play with other dogs is so high, that it is almost trumping his usual rewards. So, I have to watch his body language carefully and if I see him even think about approaching an on-lead dog, or anything else inappropriate, I have to put him on the lead for a few seconds until we've passed whatever is catching his attention.

I think it's important to remember that dogs cannot behave or communicate naturally when restricted by a lead and therefore many otherwise perfectly friendly dogs can react badly to being approached on-lead by an over enthusiastic dog. The on-lead dog is unable to give off clear enough body language and/or escape the other dog's advances, so they resort to the only option they have. If you just ask the other dog owner if their dog would like to play, then your dog can enjoy meeting and playing with theirs without anyone needing to worry.

I think someone upthread asked how you get your dog to recall when they want to play with another dog. The answer is through lots of hard work and training, plus finding some way to make yourself as interesting as you can - hopefully more interesting than their potential playmate - not an easy task. In our case we have squeaky toys that are their top-grade rewards and they are only allowed to play with on very select occasions. One squeak of their respective toys and they are back like a shot for the rare chance to play with their beloved toy. It's a case of finding out what most motivates your dog in particular, for some it may be food, for others toys/games. It's also important to remember not to try free-running recall in the park etc until your pup has gone through the stages of developing a bombproof recall in the home and garden, where there are less distractions. Then you need to up the ante to more distractions, but in a secure, controllable environment, before moving on to off-lead in public parks etc.

I would also highly recommend training the instant down, as not only can it save your dog's life if, for example, they are running towards traffic, but it is also an invaluable way of stopping them getting themselves into all manner of hot-water, including approaching on lead dogs. Lurcherboy actually responds better to the instant down than the recall at the moment, so I am able to use that to stop him approaching leashed dogs if necessary.

Branleuse Mon 13-May-13 18:44:09

kittens you are not the op. Why have you hijacked the thread to be about you?

OwlLady Mon 13-May-13 18:51:58

I always put my dogs on lead if approaching owners on theirs on them. i have always done this. My parents did the same
hth

'Naughty step' approach to dog training.

grin grin

I know beer. I still waiting to find out how that works

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 19:19:56

You take a folding box with you. Then when they have done something doggyish, you mount them on the box in the manner of a sea lion trainer.

Then you ask them to think about what they've done.

grin

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 19:21:37

Honey grin

Whippy is scared of boxes, can I bring a hula hoop and
have a naughty circle instead?

Sounds a bit of a faff.

Think I'll stick with moosemama's advice.

littlewhitebag Mon 13-May-13 19:28:42

Oh my how this debate has raged while i was at work. It was a very interesting read! I also feel bad for all the dogs my lab has bounded up to when they were on leads. Her recall is better but not so good that i can immediately recall her and pop her lead on when a brand new dog is on the horizon. More work required in this doggie home.

I am loving the idea of putting her on the naughty 'step' 'box' 'hula hoop' and explaining to her what she did wrong then waiting for her to say sorry and give me a hug big wet lick

pigsDOfly Mon 13-May-13 19:31:36

Yes well the idea that 'my dog should be allowed to do as it likes' seems to be well and truly alive in my nearest park.

I was told off the other day by some idiot owner for bringing a ball to the park to throw for my dog when his out of control dog decided to jump all over me in an attempt to take the ball out of my hand.

I fear there are many owners with kitten's attitude. Perhaps next time I come across this annoying dog and his owner I'll suggest he pops his doggie on the 'naughty step' for a little 'time out', god help us.

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 19:32:29

I have been teaching Hully to jump through a hoop. However it's dds hoop and she's only 3. So it's 3 year old sized. Hully is 28k Labrador sized. If we hold it too high she jumps through it but it gets stuck on her arse end.

This results in 5 minutes painful confusion as she simultaneously tries to eat her treat, work out where the hoop disappeared to and why she can't sit down properly. Every single time.

It's awesome grin <<cruel>>

Irresponsible owner - "What's that? Put my dog on its lead?......... Put it on the Naughty Step? WTF?"

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 19:46:34

Mine isn't allowed up steps...do I need to carry a naughty ramp?

She may have to give up that dream of wearing a sparkly suit in the circus, HoneyD sad

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 20:05:36

sad

CatelynStark Mon 13-May-13 20:17:23

I walk my Staffie on the moor and only let him run off lead if there are no other dogs in sight.

I immediately put him on the lead if any dog comes near as he forgets all of his recall training in the excitement. I just can't trust him to come back when I call him, plus, as he's a Staffie and therefore obviously a slavering pyscho hmm, if there's a fight, he's going to be the one who will get the blame! He will never start a fight, but I reckon he could finish it!

I've lost count of the number of people who allow their dogs to bounce all over mine when he's on lead. My 4 stone boy gets very excited as he's really friendly and playful, so I get dragged all over the place which annoys me no end.

People who let their dogs run up to on lead dogs want their fucking bumps felt - it's totally moronic!!

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 20:34:02

He he he
My dog's the well trained good one.
I feel sorry for you lot, your walks must be very dull. Ours are fab.
Please see my post above. Tired of repeating myself. Still not going to leash my dog because you can't control yours.
Btw, I'm guessing that you guys are all fans of crating too. No wonder your dogs are fucked up.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 20:44:22

Kittensoft, if you have something useful to add to the thread, that will help first time or inexperienced dog owners to train their dogs to recall regardless of distractions, please do share. We would all be delighted to hear your methods.

If not, please don't keep coming back to sneer and cast aspersions. I'm sure, as a community, we all have much to learn from each other, surely sensible, adult discussion is far better than insults and insinuations?

CatelynStark Mon 13-May-13 20:45:37

I think the old adage 'Don't feed the troll' is applicable here.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 20:51:19

Not a troll, just finally had enough of the inanity.
I did try to share my methods, and see where that got me...

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:05:56

For those who can read- and are not too literal minded, the naughty step idea refers to not giving attention to dogs that are behaving badly - for whatever reason. Dogs want fuss. The worst punishment is not to give them any sort of attention. Even shouting at them and telling them off is attention, which is why, after the initial reprimand, I stop and ignore her.
If I see a dog on a lead I will normally ask if it is friendly. 9x out of 10 the owner says, its fine, just too bouncy, on heat, has poor recall or whatever. If they say that it is unfriendly I will call her to me, but usually she has got the vibe and steered clear anyway.

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 21:06:47

Can I please retract my previous piss taking of the naughty step. I was wrong and I am sorry. Hullygully has recently bombed up the stairs covered in mud from digging in the garden.

Clearly she knows this is wrong so I tried the naughty step. And fuck me It works!

She obviously just needed time to reflect.

CatelynStark Mon 13-May-13 21:11:37

Love it, Honeydragon! That needs to go on Dogshaming.com smile

littlewhitebag Mon 13-May-13 21:11:44

What a CUTE dog! Is it a lab cross? It has tiny little dainty paws unlike my labs huge spade like paws

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 21:12:46

Honey I just actually Lol'ed.

From now on I will ignore Whippy attempting to eat people's puppies. That'll cause no problems at all, I'm sure it won't, because Kittens said it is the right thing to do.

After reprimanding her first of course, by the way how shall I do this?

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:12:54

That is one sorry doggie.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 21:13:49

So if you ask and recall, what's the issue? confused

That's the same as putting a lead on, to the other owner anyway.

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 21:14:39

Nope, she's [apparently] purebred. She's actually quite tall for a lab bitch. But she's very pretty and dainty looking till she vomits up a decomposed eyeball

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:16:57

I don't know, tabul, I just don't know.
I just don't spend all day putting the lead on and off.

WinkyWinkola Mon 13-May-13 21:17:07

My dog has been to puppy training, several visits to the vet, spent time with other dog owners and NOBODY has blardy told me anything about the etiquette of not allowing him up to a dog on a lead.

So, I might be thick or whatever but I think doggy etiquette needs to be broadcast.

I started another thread on The DogHouse for top tips on this kind of thing. You might think it's obvious (okay, picking up poo IS obvious) but the rest.... please do add to it.

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 21:17:20

Well Dooin.

Once you've ignored the puppycide, than I suggest you take her to a nearby cafe for an ice cream and explain patiently but sternly that what she did was wrong and how disappointed you are.

The call your insurance company and check how far they are prepared to go third party.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 21:18:04

aaaaaw, poor Hullygully... <only just looked at the photo>

littlewhitebag Mon 13-May-13 21:18:17

She has a beautiful face - she looks just like my dog. Maybe it is just the camera angle making her paws look small. I luffs golden labs --apart from the ingesting and regurgitating of gross animal parts including poo-

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:18:22

D0- you don't know how to reprimand your dog?

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 21:18:26

Winky

I like that thread and thought it was a good idea. I Los don't think you are thick. You love your dog and asked a fair question smile

littlewhitebag Mon 13-May-13 21:18:30

Strike out fail!

RedwingWinter Mon 13-May-13 21:19:03

She's very cute, Honey!

littlewhitebag Mon 13-May-13 21:20:21

Winky - i didn't know this either. My dog is very, very rude and i need to rethink her training plan!

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 21:21:10

That's a much better explanation for those that are new to dog training Kittensoft. I remember when I first started out that the idea of negative attention being rewarding seemed contradictory to me, until I managed to get my head around the whole reward/non-reward, rather than reward/punishment idea.

I don't think people were criticising your methods, it was just phrase 'naughty step' that conjured up a funny image - like Hully Gully's picture in Honey's last post. smile

The only thing I would (or rather have done) differently would be to not use the stern words at all. Just clip on lead and exit park/field - end of walk, end of fun. Not sure how stern words would help the situation, particularly if the behaviour was fear based. I would have thought confident handling with low stimulation would be better.

Sounds like you do the same as the rest of us in terms of checking if it's ok for your dog to approach. The putting on the lead thing is a bit of a red-herring, because the issue is controlling your dog, not whether or not they're put on the lead.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 21:22:04

Actually, no, I don't know how to reprimand my dogs. I don't think I've done it before.

Unless making Devil Dog get off the dining table is a reprimand? He seems to think it is.

Winky, you're not thick at all, you asked a question, listened to the answers and sought more info. That's quite smart in my books grin

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:23:30

Winky
I wouldn't take too much notice. This lot would have you keeping your dog in a box and never letting it play until it was scared shitless of other dogs.
You'll find more normal people out at the park.

Branleuse Mon 13-May-13 21:24:34

fwiw I never put my dog on a lead unless we're next to a road, but she is an old lady and has excellent recall and pretty good doggy manners

Love the eyes Honey!

Winky - not daft at all. Sometimes the bleedin obvious aint so obvious iyswim? I walk with two friends sometimes in the morning, my Springer, another one and a rescue GSD. Today we met a Rottie on lead. I was the only one who recalled my dog and stuck him on lead, despite him being well mannered. The rescue GSD has serious anxiety issues with other dogs, yet her owner did nothing, just let her bark and bark incessantly.

The on lead Rottie was due to her being on heat btw, I know the owner to chat to.

However, I will for sure allow my dog to do something that I shouldn't, through just not realising so your thread is a great idea.

There's bags of recall training games you can play, there's a post by Idirdog that is, as usual, excellent.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 21:27:10

???

Our Springer was attacked last week by a Staffie who wasn't on a lead or even muzzled. The owner helpfully shouted 'let your dog run love' and the Staffie charged after my puppy. I found my poor puppy quaking in a bush 5 minutes later. It really shook us both up, i was crying tbh.

I wish that dog had been on lead and I have no problem in the slightest with recalling mine and putting the lead on for a few moments. Otherwise I will call out and ask if he's ok to stay off lead.

Not sure what the issue is?

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 21:33:57

Poor Whippy sad dogs need space and to be allowed to roam free, you should be devoting yourself to that.

ps - owners response was 'sorry love, he's a bit mental'?!

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 21:35:06

I think that's it D0oin, as in BAT, no reprimand, just turn your back and remove the dog to a safer distance that they can cope with, if the behaviour is rooted in fear, reprimanding is only likely to make them more anxious and/or fearful.

I have had two different dogs we needed to use this approach with. One, a terrier who suddenly became headshy after a stay in kennels when the owner was away angry. She started ducking and running away for no apparent reason. We had to watch her for signs of stress and remove her from the situation to a place she felt safer as soon as she started to show signs - she would then be rewarded for coping and behaving appropriately in the new situation.

The second - or actually the first case - was a large breed with serious fear aggression. If he became reactive we would turn him away and remove him to a distance where he could observe, but not be stressed by or react to whatever the stimulus was. He could then be rewarded for appropriate behaviour in the new location.

In both cases we were able to verry slowly reduce the distance to which they had to be removed before being able to cope and thus being rewarded.

In neither case would reprimand have been appropriate, as both dogs were clearly terrified.

Reprimand should rarely be required if you employ reward/non-reward - yes you may have to physically move the dog from A to B if they are in danger or causing problems for someone else, but it's always worth distraction and redirection before physical redirection.

Kittensoft, there is an awful lot of valuable knowledge and experience within this community, anyone dismissing all of it out of hand is, imho, being both arrogant and naive. I have lived with dogs for many many years, but the day I think I know it all and know better than everyone else is the day I should give it up. There is always more to learn and always new research and understanding being uncovered.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:35:21

Moose
I do find that a good strong 'NO' works wonders and is easily understood. I didn't find that just ignoring it worked, she had to know what was wrong.

RedwingWinter Mon 13-May-13 21:35:40

Now then Dooin, I was thinking about poor Whippy and how she's never allowed out (ahem) and therefore she might need to come and live with me. At least for a little bit. A loan would do. What do you think?

Yes, whippy looks like a cowering prisoner wink Especially being forced to go out with a dog with laser eyes. grin

Ahem, Redwing, I think you'll find there's an orderly queue of potential foster homes for Whippy.
<Elbows Redwing out of the way and stands by Dooin's door going "Me, me, me">

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 21:39:20

grin Laser-eyed dog lives in Scotland now. I have lazy-dog instead now. I made him walk for fives miles yesterday, he actually, properly, cried halfway home sad

I haven't took him to the beach yet, he doesn't chase, so should be fine off lead, but I need him to bond with me first.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:41:48

Re your last post moose, I don't think I know it all about dogs, but I was very lucky that the rescue home I got mine from gave me some excellent tips which chimed with my own experience and have worked. I have a very happy well behaved dog and I'm really enjoying her.

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 21:42:51

No. Hully and I should get Whippy. Then Hully might quit with the Dail Mail Sad Face.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 21:46:30

I accept that some people use 'No' as a form of reprimand and if used in conjunction with appropriate redirection, in situations not involving fear or anxiety, with many dogs it's unlikely to do any harm eg, puppy nipping, but personally it's not a method I would use. I prefer to redirect and reward.

For example, lurcherboy has developed a habit of putting his front paws up on a carved bench in my window since the day we took our oldgirl to be pts. I could say no, but haven't needed to, as I have instead been redirecting him with the 'off' cue and rewarding him for getting down. This afternoon he went to put his paws up on the bench, when I watched him think twice and sit in front of it instead - cue a massive jackpot treat. Believe me, lurcherboy is not the brainiest of dogs, but he worked it out without ever being reprimanded for getting it wrong, iyswim.

I guess we both have our own slightly different methods that work for us and our dogs. smile

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 21:47:41

We do a mix of BAT and extra off lead socialising Moose, she was a bit skittish off lead this morning. I caught her trying to stalk a black lab and had to recall her, her hackles were up when she came back. I had thought earlier this was because the puppy incident yesterday had shaken her up more than I thought and was worried this was the start of off lead aggression too, however she was fine on her pre-arranged playdate with a little lurcher puppy she's never met before.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 21:52:20

It's great that you have a happy, well behaved dog and that your methods are non-punitive and work for your dog and I'm sure you don't really think that you know it all wrt dogs.

My post was in response to your rather unnecessary post at 21:23:30, which implied that listening to others on this thread would lead to an unhappy, fearful dog.

I would have to strongly disagree with that. I have only been here a short while, yet have already learned such a lot from other posters. Everyone here is here for the love of dogs and we should all be learning from each other, not fighting amongst ourselves - Lord knows there's a big enough anti-dog lobby to cope with, without us turning on each other.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:58:46

I think i've taken some unnecessarily crap on this thread, and I don't feel like taking it so have retaliated. Perhaps you should be having a little word with some of the other posters too.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 21:59:29

iPad bloody autocorrect

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 22:00:26

I am really interested in BAT D0oin. I never heard of it in waay back in the days when I was training my more 'problem dogs', iyswim.

It seems very similar to the work I used to do back then, but has been taken much further and explained much better than I ever could. I kind of went with a mix of instinct , gut feeling, observation and positive/reward based methods at the time, but would have loved to have had the access to socialisation groups etc that there is these days.

We managed to get the terrier totally sorted and the big guy reached a point where he would ignore people and dogs, but was never really happy for others to solicitate interaction. Unfortunately, he died of cancer before we could take him any further sad but he had gone from a dog that needed to be walked with a three-man human escort, to one who was a happy calm boy who could safely mix with people and dogs, but probably preferred not to. grin

HoneyDragon Mon 13-May-13 22:05:48

Someone on here once explained that No! Is useful as the Dog will recognise as a stop signal. You just have to immediately follow it with an instruction the dog can follow.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 22:11:04

I don't think anyone on this thread has accused you of not having your dog's best interests at heart or suggested your methods are cruel and would include locking dogs in a box all day, leading to fearful, unhappy dogs.

There has been a fair bit of ribbing and leg-pulling, yes, but mainly in response to the 'naughty step' image - which is after all a humourous image.

Must admit I do that Honey, or use an 'ah ah' sound. I always than redirect very enthusiastically using another command and then very often liver smile

So, if I think he might jump up, i will say 'ah ah' but then immediately recall, get him to sit or whatever, treat and praise.

Now not sure if this is correct?

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 22:15:07

Good point Honey.

If 'No!' is your choice of stop signal then yes, it has a valid part to play. In fact, I think it sounds like that's the way Kitten uses it, as a signal of non-reward - and if something's non-rewarding, you may as well stop doing it. A perfectly legitimate and valid method, just slightly different than my own.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 22:16:03

needastrong one, sounds good to me. smile

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 09:29:19

Mind you, I did this the other day and the woman replied that no, her dog was friendly, and that it was on heat and I should keep my ugly dog away, and that I was ugly too!

Now that is rude. What a bitch. Both of them.

moosemama Mon 13-May-13 22:19:22

Agreed, Leonard.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 13-May-13 22:20:06

I used divert and reward with Devil Dog as I had never heard of BAT back then either, however I did inadvertently use a form of BAT with him, if he was too focused upon trying to kill the approaching dog to be diverted we would turn and walk away and then he'd be rewarded the instant he gave his full attention to me and stopped trying to turn around to see what the now-behind-him dog was up to and whether it fancied being lunch.

BAT is much quicker, but would be much easier if people would just call their sodding dogs back when they see an on lead dog coming. Off lead dogs are so much harder for whippy to deal with, we don't get as close to them before she freezes, sniffs the floor and then I click and turn away before she gets the chance to do her whole crouchy-stalky thingy which is the lead-up to her frothy dog act.

Off lead, she will curve around and come up behind a strange dog and greet, once she's done that she's fine to play. She's happy for other dogs to arch around to her too, so long as she's off lead and knows she can run if she needs to.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 13-May-13 22:22:37

Moose
Have a look back at some of the previous posts and then tell me again about leg pulling.
The naughty step is funny, that's why I said it. Some of the other posts have been pretty vile.
I'm off now.

tabulahrasa Mon 13-May-13 22:50:30

To be fair though - there's a massive difference between I don't see why I should have to put my dog on a lead because other dogs are badly behaved and I ask the owner and call my dog back if I need to.

The first makes it sound like you let your dog run up to other dogs no matter what and the second is no different at all to what anybody with an on lead dog would ask for.

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