Would you return puppy to breeder?

(100 Posts)
NorthernAnnie Wed 06-Mar-13 21:45:31

We bought a cross breed puppy. He is now 10 months old and has numerous allergies including grass and certain foods. He is now on an expensive diet, can't walk on grass, our vet's bills are huge and not likely to get any less and he sheds heavily which aggravates DS's asthma. We love him but in hindsight we should have been more careful about where we bought him from. I have realised the breeder was a BYB, she hadn't had her dog (or the stud) health tested although she was a much loved family pet. Would it be awful to return him to her?

Lilyloo Wed 06-Mar-13 21:54:06

sad poor poor dog how sad you didn't research your breeder. Am shocked that a breeder that failed to do the most basic health checks is prepared to take back a 10 mth old dog.
Not sure who you expect to take on a pup with the health issues you describe either sad

NorthernAnnie Wed 06-Mar-13 21:54:45

I mean would I be within my rights and/or would it be ethically wrong?

NorthernAnnie Wed 06-Mar-13 21:56:02

She would have to care for him. There's no way I would sell him or give him to the RSPCA.

NorthernAnnie Wed 06-Mar-13 21:57:22

I didn't know about BYB, I assumed that pets4homes was a safe place... I have since joined mumsnet and learnt a lot from the doghouse.

IllGetOverIt Wed 06-Mar-13 22:00:31

Can't imagine she would take him back and I don't think she has to either. Surely it's a 'sold as seen' scenario?

Any dog can have allergies.

miggy Wed 06-Mar-13 22:04:11

There is no health testing for atopy, which is what I assume your dog has. The shedding well am assuming its a poodle cross of some kind and in that case you can never guarantee if they will shed or not, if the breeder told you otherwise then that's wrong of her.
Otherwise I think no it's not fair to ask the breeder to take this dog back, presumably you have insurance, if not then the breeder will not be able to take any out at this point.
It's not like buying a washing machine, animals get problems like we do.no ones fault.
If you don't want to keep the dog then you should take the responsibility to rehome it yourself, via a charity not a classified ad.
Ethically wrong and I think you would struggle to do it legally under sale of goods act as not something like hip dysplasia that could have been prevented.

D0oinMeCleanin Wed 06-Mar-13 22:05:38

It's taken you 10 months to realise your dog has health issues and your son is allergic? Wow. That's lax even in my books.

Oh and fwiw I'm allergic to grass as is Devil Dog, we can still walk on it. I've never, ever heard of an allergy to grass being that bad that the sufferer cannot walk on it. Try Piriton, ask your vet about the dosage.

thegriffon Wed 06-Mar-13 22:19:47

Health testing parents wouldn't give info about puppy allergies, or how much hair they'll shed. Poor dog sad

OneHundredSecondsofSolitude Wed 06-Mar-13 22:22:01

You don't want your puppy anymore? Poor thing sad

Really ?
That's a real shame that you didn't research the breed, speak to prospective breeders , visit different breeders, check all the paperwork for all of the relevant health checks, take out insurance

You just checked the free ads and rolled up with a few hundred quid didn't you? An now the cute fluffy puppy has turne out to be more work than you wanted so you want to dump him back on the bastard that need him ?

You owe it to your dog to get it the best medical management available and a good home

MechanicalTheatre Wed 06-Mar-13 22:31:41

What Korma said.

bastard that bred him

mama04 Thu 07-Mar-13 00:55:00

This post made me grrrr confused would u dump any other family member for illness? shock Poor dog.

Okay, assuming you do love him and are willing to work to help him...

What's he allergic to - perhaps people can suggest some protocols that have worked for their dogs if they have experienced similar?

Why can't he walk on grass? If it's his allergy, DOoin has suggested Piriton, which must be worth a try.

What expensive diet is he on and why (i.e. what's in it, or not in it, that makes the difference)? Again, perhaps people that have experienced similar could suggest a cheaper alternative, if there is one.

Shedding / asthma - is he groomed or clipped regularly? If not, probably worth starting regular grooming either by yourself or a groomer, as this should help keep that under control. Is it worth your son seeing the ashtma nurse again to check his medication is optimised? I'm asthmatic and allergic to cats and dogs - currently have 3 cats and am in the process of adopting a dog; it can, in most circumstances, be managed.

What breed is he, out of curiosity?

Bakingtins Thu 07-Mar-13 07:41:55

BYB = back yard breeder?
There is no test to prove if a dog has genes for atopy. There is a genetic component, it is more common in certain breeds, but it isn't as simple as if either parent was affected the puppy will be. It normally presents in the first couple of years so the breeder would have no way of knowing the puppy was likely to be affected at 6-8 weeks old. The breeder has done nothing wrong and is under no obligation to take the puppy back. If you had found there was a problem at your post-purchase vet check that would be different.

saintmerryweather Thu 07-Mar-13 07:48:27

If you give him back how long will it be before you buy another puppy to try and get one thats not broken?

Owllady Thu 07-Mar-13 09:29:34

You say he sheds easily, can you not limit him to certain parts of the house? I don't mean locking him up, but maybe having the lounge dog free and upstairs? and then you will have less rooms to hoover, dust and air each day

As for vet bills, they are expensive. It's the main thing people should consider before getting any pet. Even if you have a dog who is extremely healthy you can still be landed with a huge vet bill. Keeping a dog isn't cheap

Lucyellensmum95 Thu 07-Mar-13 09:35:33

I ant believe i am reading this angry I have returned a dog to the breeder, my DP "surprised me with a puppy" i wasn't well (mentally), the dog clearly had issues - DP was a twat - so I made him take the dog STRAIGHT BACK! that very day - and no, we didn't get a refund! I felt like the biggest shit toever walk the earth.

When the time was right, we got a dog, and now we have two. Both cross breeds - one is a rescue.

You have had this dog for 10 months, what makes you think the breeder will take it back? What makes you think it is better than the rspca? Why the hell did you get a dog if you knew your DS had asthma - seriously, im almost speechless.

Get onto your local dogs trust/rspca and hope they can find the poor animal a loving home. I think the only reason you want him back to the breeder is because you want your money back hmm

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 07-Mar-13 09:47:49

Okay now I am done with bashing my head against the desk....

Shedding - Clip the coat as short as possible, comb daily, use this to reduce the amount of dander shed, contrary to popular belief it is dander (dead skin cells) that most people are allergic to not hair.

Allergies: Devil Dog is allergic to everything he can eat Nature Diet Chicken, Fish and Sensitive, as well as Fish4Dogs, BARF, Orijen, JWB Lamb and Rice and a gluten and wheat free own brand food that is made near Wheatley Hill, so if you live round those parts you might be able to pick it, it's £13 for a huge sack. He uses Piriton in the summer because he is allergic to pollen and grass seeds, just plain regular piriton, I comb him through after walks in the park over summer to remove any grass seeds from his coat.

Vet foods and specialised anti allergy meds can be expensive but if you ask your vet there are usually cheaper alternatives, the only medicated thing my dog has is his shampoo and his steroid cream during summer, those cost £6 each and last the whole of summer, very occasionally he might need an anti inflammatory jab, this costs in total £26, £18 consultation fee and £8 for the jab.

The most expensive thing is keeping all pets completely flea free because he is also allergic to fleas, but this really is something that all dog owners should do anyway, although before Devil Dog I deflea'd things as and when needed and now cannot do that.

If you still cannot cope then PM me, as I see you are based in the north and I know a few rescues up here that will help you out I could put you in touch with. The breeder won't take him back and selling him would be irresponsible and possibly dangerous for him. Dog fighting still goes on and dog fighters do browse the free ads looking for free or cheap dogs to use as bait.

sad
'She would have to care for him'

The sad fact is she doesn't HAVE to care for him just as you are choosing not to. Poor puppy sad I can't believe that you'd dump him for something like this. Doesn't it bring out any instinct to want to protect him at all.

HormonalHousewife Thu 07-Mar-13 09:57:56

Steady on... the OP is just asking the question. She hasnt said thats what she will be doing.

She clearly says she loves the dog but wishes she had done a bit more homework. Whats wrong with that ?

Cut her some slack guys or offer fab advice like Dooin has.

I have a dog with multiple allergies. He also regularly tries to kill himself (eats chocolate, impales himself on fences, runs through glass....sigh). He was badly bred, probably puppy farmed in fact. He has cost us a fortune and several sleepless nights. We've had him 17 months, and I hope we have him for at least another decade. The allergy issue can be managed, it just takes a bit of trial and error to work out which meds/food works best.

Is it a PITA to have a dog with issues? Yep. But we chose to have this dog. It isn't his fault he's badly bred and he has issues. My son is also asthmatic, and our dog sheds like a bastard. I groom him daily, hoover daily, damp dust regularly, keep the dog downstairs and monitor DS's breathing. Thakfully, the dog has never aggravated DS's asthma, although during the summer I have to be extra vigilent as DS has hayfever and the dog brings in a lot of pollen on his coat.

I think it would be morally wrong to try and pass the dog back so it isn't your responsibility. Either knuckle down and get on with it, or contact a reputable rescue and hope that they can sort out your dog's allergies and find him a forever home.

OP, my DH has asthma but we manage fine with four greyhounds. Dooin has already given you excellent advice about coping with dog's allergies. For dealing with human asthma and dog combo - I'd suggest the following - regular damp dusting, using a good vacuum cleaner often with HEPA filter. Airing the house thoroughly. Regular washing of dog's bedding at highest poss temps, and also of all soft furnishings such as cushions, fabric sofa covers etc. Remove carpets and put down laminate/wooden/vinyl/tile floors - much less dusty and don't hold on to mites/hair. Consider keeping dog downstairs. Keep dog clipped and regularly groom him outside. Much of this is considered routine housekeeping for asthmatics anyway but I wanted to reinforce the difference it can make.

There is no way that a BYB off a site notorious for being an outlet for puppy farmers and BYBs will take this dog back - by now they will be selling to a fresh lot of mugs. Ethically, you've got this dog and should now be doing your utmost to provide a lifelong home for him. But I am also a realist and if you do decide to rehome, please do so via a reputable rescue (NOT the RSPCA) and give them a socking big donation.

recall Thu 07-Mar-13 10:57:28

What exactly did the breeder do wrong ? How could she have possibly prevented this from happening ?

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 11:14:24

Thanks for all the advice. I would never try to sell him or give him to the RSPCA. I would contact a breed rescue center (they have them for his breed) and keep him until they found a good home for him. DS also has eczema which is really bad at the moment which we have narrowed down to the amount of dog hair. It has taken a while, our dogs skin problems didn't start until he was 6 months and then we went through different treatments and elimination with the vet which took a long time, likewise with DS's eczema.

The vet said we may never know some of our dogs allergies and therefore he will need to be on medication. We have wooden floors and I brush him and sweep/mop daily but it literally gets everywhere sad. The breeder did say he would be non to low shedding sad

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 11:15:02

(That sad face was for our dog by the way)

Lucyellensmum95 Thu 07-Mar-13 11:41:01

Have you posted about this dog before? I thought you said it was a cross-breed? or is it one of those bloody designer dogs? I would have thought if you can afford to buy one of those, you can afford the associated bills tbh.

Theres no way a breeder could guarantee a non shedding dog.

I was going to post more, but other more rational posters have said it all.

Floralnomad Thu 07-Mar-13 12:22:58

You've been given plenty of advice about dealing with the shedding and so that makes this a purely financial decision . Personally I can't understand anyone giving up a pet for the reasons you've given . Most of these types of breeders are only in it for the money so I doubt she would take back a potential money pit , likewise there are loads of dogs without these issues in rescues so I can't imagine he would find the home he deserves very quickly . Poor puppy.

rain2012 Thu 07-Mar-13 13:51:51

The first owners of my dog gave her back to the breader (who wasn't a good one at that) and we rescued her. You would be amazed at the psychological problems all that causes her. I would go through a good charity to find the dog a fantastic new home.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 07-Mar-13 14:39:22

That's bollocks what your vet said btw, allergy tests can be done to pin point the cause of the allergy, if it's a skin condition, if not then an exclusion diet can pin point food allergies, skin tests cost in the region of £1000 but should be covered by your pet insurance. Exclusion diets you do at home under the guidance of a vet.

I'm guessing he's some sort of 'oodle cross? A Labradoodle probably? Sounds like he has inherited the lab coat This should help, along with regular trips to the groomers to be clipped

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs Thu 07-Mar-13 14:52:36

first of all, this is one of the huge frustrations I have with BYB. They don't think/ know/ care about potential genetic problems- just stick one dog with the other, bingo, cute puppies, loads of dosh. Every single breed (or designer breed) that becomes popular mysteriously seems to present more and more commonly with skin problems/ other defects, which I can't help but assume is down to people with no actual deep interest/ knowledge in the breed pumping out puppies. These kind of breeders will NOT be remotely prepared to take the dog back, because to them it was a financial transaction, and they don't really care (unlike proper breeders, who would be horrified to discover problems in their lines)

having said that, as atopy is SO common in dogs these days, it would be a disaster if everyone who owns an atopic dog gave it up! Vet bills are, unfortunately, one of the issues of owning dogs, and should have been factored into your decision to get a dog, really. Think yourself relatively lucky- there are other conditions that cost even more, and any dog can become unwell.

I'd say follow some of the advice above, and speak to your vet about possible treatment options. these cases are frustrating and difficult for vets and owners, and uncomfortable for the dog, but the aim is to manage rather than cure the condition, and it can take a while to get it right. Good luck

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 15:05:08

Another problem is also the costs. We had petplan insurance, DH lost his job and we were advised to get PDSA, he then got the skin condition. DH is starting a new job in 2 weeks so we will have to get insurance, they won't cover us for his skin condition (medication/treatments etc) as it will be a pre-existing condition. I also suspect he has bad hips but if this is confirmed while we are still with PDSA insurance will not cover that either. He's a golden retriever/poodle cross btw.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 15:06:43

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs - Absolutely, I've learned a lot through mumsnet about BYB and had I known I would never have bought from one for all these reasons.

happygardening Thu 07-Mar-13 19:31:46

OP we can all be clever in retrospect and I feel sorry for you. You have got real problem if your DS is really allergic to the dog hair because despite what some say if you DS's asthma is exacerbated by the dog it may not be possible to control it by adjusting his medication. Effective control in an environment where your DS is allergic to dog hair may only be achieved by increasing inhalers etc to a level where he is at risk of serious side effects (children are at higher risk than adults) and most paediatricians will advise you to get rid of the dog before contemplating doing this.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 19:32:51

Does anyone know how much it would potentially cost to treat/medicate a dog with allergies? Each time we have been to the vet it has cost £85 for a 5 minute consultation and 2 weeks of medicine.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 19:35:23

happygardening - Thanks for being understanding. I do brush him, hoover, sweep and mop daily as well as opening windows but he sheds literally handfuls a day.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 07-Mar-13 19:36:06

What medicine? Mine gets Metasomething shampoo (£6 a bottle) and topical steroid creams (£6 a tube) plus extra for gloves to apply it, occasional jabs for £8 each and Piriton £3.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 19:38:03

The problem is that he has needed antibiotics in conjunction with the steroids as it keeps turning into a bacterial infection

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 07-Mar-13 19:42:07

Antibiotics shouldn't push the price up that much, you really need to find the cause of the allergy to treat it successfully. I'd see a different vet, tbh, the consultation fee at yours must be very expensive.

idirdog Thu 07-Mar-13 19:52:45

I can't believe this thread. No is the answer to your thread title.

Stop making excuses because things are a bit difficult at the moment - just get on with looking after your dog.

Start asking sensible questions on here on how to make it easier for you but just giving you dog away is irresponsible. Man up to the task fgs - allergies are easy to manage

Right. Well you clearly have a problem which needs fixing.

What has the vet done so far to identify allergens? What tests have been done and what are the results?

Which food is he on and why? Which other foods have you tried?

How do the dogs allergies show themselves?

The breeder is unlikely to accept the dog back as she is clearly not a committed breeder. In addition, a dog is not something which can be returned as faulty, you get what you get, tbh.

There's no dog in the world which is non shedding, but food and allergens can exacerbate it, somthe food questions are important ones.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 20:18:23

He had red crusty spot on his body and started shedding his coat, the vet tried him on three different types of antibiotics & steroids, this went on for a few months, she then did a skin test as his skin went black in patches, they found out what bacteria it was and started him on different antiobiotics which he was on for 6 weeks. They worked but didn't clear it up so we had to do an elimination diet. This has worked a bit but she thinks because of where his skin is bad it is grass related too so we are keeping him off the grass at the moment... PDSA won't pay for allergy testing and the vet said it isn't always accurate and is very expensive and that we may never know the exact cause. In the meantime DS has also been having really bad flare ups of eczema and getting quite wheezy with his asthma. It's just a nightmare for our dog & DS.

miggy Thu 07-Mar-13 20:31:52

Have they treated for sarcoptic mange just in case, don't always see it on one scrape and would explain some of these symptoms

Annie, I hope you get this sorted and it must be very stressful for all concerned. Bloody myths about doodles being hypoallergenic!

We keep out puppy in the kitchen. I had thought to let him have more freedom as he grew but actually this suits us all, particularly with DH having asthma. I do all the things others mention, mop, wipe, brush the dog, clean the surfaces and open the windows, all daily but it's only one room at least. Luckily, it's a large room with sofas, chairs and a TV so we all stay in there until puppy sleeps at night, in fact we spend more time as a family now.

Sorry, did you mention what food he's on? Can you feed just chicken wings or something for a while, we get a big bag for £1 from the farm shop, puppy has two for his tea instead of kibble.

Hope it works out, I suspect the breeder wouldn't want to know.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 20:39:08

Thanks Miggy & needsastrongone, they thought it might be fox mange at first, that's sarcoptic mange isn't it? I can't remember why she decided it wasn't, I will ask again.

ReluctantBeing Thu 07-Mar-13 20:40:12

The breeder would not have been able to tell how the dog's coat would turn out if it was a cross breed.
One of my hounds has bad allergies a d we have to be careful about what we feed him and he has a half ever tablet every day.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 20:41:42

I remember now, she said that because it's not on his face and he's not itchy it's likely not that

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 20:44:04

He's on hypoallergenic duck & rice kibble

miggy Thu 07-Mar-13 20:52:04

Well worth a try then, cheap as chips to treat compared to the amount you have paid so far.
Honestly in your position I would be asking for a referral to a skin specialist, yes it will cost a bit (but not any where as much as most referrals) but you will get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan, given you have such a young dog you could actually save a lot of money over the next ten years or so if your current vets management is costing you that much each visit.
If he is not itchy then it's not an allergic skin problem, that's one of the key symptoms. Sounds a bit odd.

What brand Annie?

Who makes the hypoallergenic food?

It sounds as though there is a lot you don't know about the dog and his condition. The vet doesn't seem to be actually getting to the root of the problem, rather treating symptoms as they present.

Has she taken skin scrape?

Where is the skin bad? How did it start? Are there any other signs of illness?

Get him insured for heavens sake, just in case his hips are a problem. At least that will be insurable.

And what else has he been fed on since you got him?

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 21:13:14

Yes she did a skin scrape and it was some kind of staph infection on the skin. It's black on his groin and bum, and where it's black his coat is very sparse. It started off as red sores but they have now gone. His whole coat is wiry & dry and short as it just sheds so much although he has never been itchy... He's on skinners food now, I read through some threads on this site and it seemed to be a good one. He was on beta when we got him so we kept him on that.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 21:15:11

He has had different brands of dog treats though and often eats bits of food that our DC drop on the floor... not chocolate though, we are careful to never give him that.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 21:30:10

Thinking about it since he started cocking his leg he has got the black patches on his groin/inner thighs whereas they used to be on his stomach... he's also got them on his bum which could be from squatting on the grass? He used to lie down on the grass every time he saw another dog which may be why he used to have it on his stomach but doesn't anymore. Would this just be treated with daily piriton?

happygardening Thu 07-Mar-13 21:37:48

I know I'm going to make myself unpopular but IMO firstly before you do anything more you need to address your DS's eczema/asthma. He can have a skin test to establish if he is allergic to dogs (although not 100% reliable) or a blood test if he is proven to be allergic to dogs then you need to think long and hard about whether or not it is viable to have an animal in your house that is having a detrimental effect on your DS's health. It is possible to even be allergic to non shedding dogs like poodles (although less likely) because I think it's not all about the hairs.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 07-Mar-13 21:41:47

I'm sure re: the piriton, my dog bites himself bloody and/or stands under the dining table rubbing his back on the side of the table when he's having an episode, he's never had black patches. Bald and bloody patches if it's not caught and treat in time, but not black.

That doesn't sound right to me. Allergies normally itch. I know, I have them sad

miggy Thu 07-Mar-13 21:44:31

Conta.t allergies in dogs extremely rare

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 21:45:48

He doesn't itch at all, never has confused ..... I have been googling and found that he may have atopic dermatitis, the picture of it look just like his skin. Unfortunately it gets worse and worse but apparently the further north you go the less the dog is affected so a lot of dogs with it are rehomed in Scotland or their owners move there I guess?

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 21:46:18

* Gets worse and worse with age

Can you upload a pic of some of his rash? It really doesn't sound allergy driven.

The skin problem could well be causing excessive hair loss.

NorthernAnnie Thu 07-Mar-13 21:53:56

It looks like the second picture down this but not red anymore due to the antibiotics

miggy Thu 07-Mar-13 22:08:45

That second picture is a yeast infection, that's what makes the skin go black.
The number one feature of atopy is itching, if your dog does not itch ( and this includes rubbing back or stomach under chairs,along floor etc, licking and chewing at skin) then he has not got atopy.
That kind of yeast infection requires special shampoo, something like malaseb, and oral medication, and a diagnosis of the underlying problem

miggy Thu 07-Mar-13 22:11:32
KateDWales Thu 07-Mar-13 22:15:30

Firstly, it seems like you obviously care about this dog or you wouldn't have bothered getting the tests etc done for him. Secondly, do not feed your dog chicken wings! Covered in fat and not to mention the bones that will very easily cause an obstruction in the gut and a very big vets bill!

You can get blood tests to identify allergies but they are expensive, however in the long run would this be cheaper than trying lots of different treatments?

Atopic dermatitis can be treated with a medication called atopica, and can be diagnosed. Or, have you considered a flea allergy? Thus can also be treated easily.

Hope this helps, but no I don't think that returning the dog to breeder will help as it will probably just end up abandoned.

Also, golden retrievers genetically have hip issues and poodles skin issues, unfortunately insurance companies will not cover any condition they consider genetic and the animal to be born with.

AwsomeMrsFox Thu 07-Mar-13 22:26:41

I really feel for you - sometimes dog ownership can be very challenging! Our old lab had that black stuff too (and suffered allergies) - I can't remember what the vet said it was, some sort of fungus I think. We routinely used a anti-fungal shampoo I wish I could remember the name. We did the whole allergy testing thing and actually the main cause we sussed ourselves and was never picked up by the tests, so I think your judgement would be better.

Is there a bigger issue that because of the problems with this dog you are not really bonding? I think if this is the case (we all have our views on re-homing), but I think if you have the opportunity to find him a home where he really will be loved you should take it.

If you are able to work through it I expect you will eventually build a very strong bond, but that may take months or even years. It is not an easy situation for you.

Just to clarify that I meant SMALL RAW chicken wings, I understand raw bones are fine for dogs. Appreciate I know very little in this area though so was just a suggestion smile

Hope it works out for you guys.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 08-Mar-13 09:33:21

Raw chicken wings are fine, as are raw drumsticks. I feed chicken wings to mine to keep their teeth clean. Cooked bones cause the problems.

My dog loves raw chicken portions. He eats wings, thighs, drumsticks...Like DOoin says, they're great for cleaning the dogs teeth, firming up poo and of course they just bloody love them grin

Oh thank goodness for that! I have some drumsticks in the freezer that I bought cheaply too. He seems to get so much pleasure them, it amuses me to watch him eat them tbh, they seem so satisfying for him and such a good jaw workout! Since we have been giving them, he's poo is just lovely smile. Really interested in raw feeding but going off topic and need to research/stock up/etc.

Just glad I 'aint going to kill him anyway smile

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 08-Mar-13 10:15:27

I buy packs of chicken wings for mine plus pull of the wings of the chicken on a Sunday before I roast it. They both know when there's chicken on the go, which has caused some confusion since I've broken my arm and have had others shopping/cooking for me grin

DH: The dogs are doing tricks in the kitchen confused
Me: Have you took the chicken out to prepare?

My mum: Um, that 'orrible thing is dancing for me. He won't leave me alone.
Me: You have Iceland bags that means you have chicken wings so he's showing you his new trick.

NorthernAnnie Fri 08-Mar-13 16:42:57

I went back to the vets today, she is still flumoxed but said that it is going to cost us around £60 a month in medication if it is atopic dermatitis, plus the medication may shorten his life... I then phoned the labradoodle trust and they said it may be sebaceous adenitis which is common in poodles so I have asked the vet to test for this sad..

The trust also said they would be able to rehome him in Scotland as they have done with a few dogs recently, the air up there means they can come off their medication but we would not be allowed to know who he had been rehomed to and would never see him again... sad

Do you have any other vets locally, to see what a competitor would charge for treatment for atopic dermatitis?

ruledbyheart Fri 08-Mar-13 17:15:27

If it's atopic dermatitis the medication will not cost £60 a month forever it is about £30 for 15 capsules however once under control the medication can be reduced to every other day and in some instances every 3-4 days.

You should have researched the breed before getting it and then finding out that they can be high shedders but thats too late now but you took on the dog and you should accept your responsibility towards it, if your child needed medication that you had to pay for would you rehome him too?
Not trying to be harsh but the dog is your responsibility and to palm him off because he needs medical care is atrocious.

Floralnomad Fri 08-Mar-13 17:19:28

You need to stop messing about with the vet and get referred to a dermatologist . I agree with ruledbyheart and if you do rehome why would you think you would be able to keep in touch or know where he had gone ?

NorthernAnnie Fri 08-Mar-13 19:11:23

The labradoodle trust said it was their policy that the rehomers weren't allowed to know where he came from and we weren't allowed to know where he had gone confused sad

I'd get a different vet. You shouldn't have to suggest a diagnosis to your vet, they should be telling you what's wrong. It must be worth getting a second opinion?

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs Fri 08-Mar-13 19:51:21

Rehome to Scotland??? I'm in Scotland and every 4th dog that walks through my consulting room door is atopic and suffering!! We do still have pollen here, you know!!

I would agree with others that most atopy is pruritic (itchy), so I'm not sure I'd go down the atopica route just yet. (Have to admit, I've not had great results with it, many of my atopic dogs don't respond, and it is comparatively expensive)

Couple of questions: has your vet given steroids in the past, and if so has it improved things or made it worse? Most atopic conditions will initially improve dramatically with steroid injections, then relapse as they wear off. In my experience food and contact allergies are less responsive to steroids, so it can be a useful experiment. Mange etc will worsen with steroids.

One of the things I would recommend (which you may already have been recommended to do) is give evening primrose oil capsules daily- this can really help the lipid barrier in the skin, and although not usually curative of atopy it can help, and it's fairly cheap and harmless, even if it has no effect. You need to use it for about 6 weeks to get an idea if it is helping. I'd second malaseb, which is really good for yeast and superficial infections. it's not particularly cheap, but you can make it last.

It may well be worth referral to a dermatologist- the initial outlay could be worth it.

DOoin. Giggled at your dogs performing in anticipation of chicken. Our puppy does this when he sees the clicker coming out!!

Seriously Annie, recently our puppy sustained a serious eye injury. Our vet was awesome, the specialist remarked that the initial treatment could not have been more appropriate or thorough. And, when our vet was unsure about the exact treatment to give as the injury was so rare, he wasn't afraid to seek expert help. That doesn't sound like your vet.

Please get a second opinion. Please. Hope you are ok.

Platypus gives super advice it would seem, good luck.

Also rather dubious that they have so very different air in Scotland!!

NorthernAnnie Fri 08-Mar-13 21:21:36

The skin on his inner ear flaps is also black, strangely.

NorthernAnnie Fri 08-Mar-13 21:24:18

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs - Thank you so much, will buy some malaseb

NorthernAnnie Sat 09-Mar-13 08:32:06

Does anyone know how we would go about rehoming him if this doesn't work out? I'm really upset that the labradoodle trust would not let us know where he was going and that we would never be able to see him again... I would want to know that he would have a better life than the one we could offer him.

idirdog Sat 09-Mar-13 08:56:28

No rescue will let you know where he is being rehomed. Rehoming means that you are giving up ALL responsibility for the dog that is the whole point.........

You can't have it both ways visit the dog but hand the baggage and expense to other people.

You seem to be bogged down by this issue and obviously need to get better informed. Some of the reasons you have said or been told about are just ridiculous.

Get a second opinion and be prepared for a short while to get things back on track and an accurate diagnosis. In a months time things will look very different. Once you get on top of the skin problem, know the cause and triggers etc it will be easy to manage and control.

Malaseb will also help with your DC,s issues to as it will help with the dander But you are going to have to spend some money

SuckingDiesel Sat 09-Mar-13 10:34:33

I see evening primrose recommended above. I would also supplement with Ester-C (a natural anti inflammatory - will help joints too if you suspect HD might be an issue) and fish body oils (omega 3 - NOT cod liver oil). Relatively cheap and promotes skin health. I have used them with great effect for my dig's skin complaint and managed to keep her off antibiotics/steroids for several years now.

AmandaLF Sat 09-Mar-13 10:44:38

No advice regarding the allergies but if you do decide to put them to a rescue could you keep him till they found him a home? My parents have 2 rescues, and both taken from a kennel. Neither of them got on well but the second you could literally count every bone in his body. He was days from death as he stopped eating. He was about 17kg and was fully grown. Skip forward 2 years and he's now over double that size but is not underweight which just goes to show how skinny he was.

It would also help the rescue place out immensely.

Annie - Do you mind if I say something honestly? I say this with good intention and not to have a go at you. I really think that, having read your posts, that you have made your decision to rehome (whether you realise this or not at this stage). Many have given extremely good advice regarding his condition and what you might expect the vet to do etc etc, but really, you are focusing on the rescue aspect.

That's fine, your decision and I am not making comment about the rights and wrongs of it. This dog has to add to your family and I don't think that you think it is or can see a time when he even will.

But you really can't expect to see him again. The rescue will ensure he goes to the best possible home. You need to leave it there and move on. Good luck.

Freakin' doodle and other 'oodle' breeders have a lot to answer for, wankers.

smile

NorthernAnnie Sat 09-Mar-13 15:35:18

I took him to another vet this morning as suggested just to see if our vet had missed something. She gave him some spot on advocate just in case it was fox mange. She said the causes these things are notoriously hard to pinpoint and treat and that we should just keep up with his special diet. I have been to a few places to try and find malaseb but no luck so far.

NorthernAnnie Sat 09-Mar-13 15:36:50

needastrongone - thanks, I really hope it can be sorted though and we won't have to resort to rehoming him.

Turniphead1 Sat 09-Mar-13 15:46:46

Northernannie - did you ask this vet about a referral to a dermatologist? Could this vet not advise you where to get malaseb?

So do I. You dog is certainly flummoxing the medical profession it has to be said. smile

Fair play for trying somewhere else too.

Floralnomad Sat 09-Mar-13 16:43:38

You need a referral to a specialist to get to the root of the problem . TBH it doesn't sound like today's vet was any better than the other one . If you don't know what you're treating how can a special diet treat it ?

My vet gave me malaseb when Jas had a yeast skin infection. It is very effective and provided instant relief to my dog. I think it costs around £6. I use the vet practice which operates out of Just For Pets, so I assume that they stock it.

pigsDOfly Sat 09-Mar-13 18:12:48

No advice really to offer except to reiterate what others have said about getting a referral to a specialist.

My girl had a problem with her eyes. Went to my vet who said he had no idea what it was as he'd never seen it before. Immediately referred me to an eye specialist who recognized it immediately, explained to me exactly what it was and started treatment. It's possibly an ongoing problem, but now we know how to handle it, and my vet has learned some new information.

I have a great deal more respect for my vet for admitting he's not some god like figure who knows everything, than if he'd just kept trying things that he thought might work.

idirdog Sat 09-Mar-13 18:19:58

Malaseb has to be given by the vet as a prescription is required but you can get the prescription and then buy online. You do need advice from the vet to check this is the right thing for your dog

Bakingtins Sat 09-Mar-13 19:48:40

I think any vet who did not recommend ruling out fleas/parasites as step 1 in treating any skin condition should be ashamed of themselves.
If your dog is not itchy ( includes rubbing, nibbling, licking as well as scratching) then is v unlikely to be atopic.
The black greasy patches which tend to affect skin folds like the groin, round the tail, armpits, ears in particular sounds like a yeast infection called malassezia. This can be identified v quickly by looking at tape strips pressed on the areas under the microscope to identify the yeast, then treated with Malaseb. You can either buy it from the vet or ask for a written prescription. The yeast infection can be the primary problem but also can be secondary to another underlying problem. Either way, controlling it will likely improve things.
The other thing which is likely to be useful is skin biopsies, which can be done under sedation/local anaesthetic. You need a proper diagnosis and a plan for treatment going forward.
I agree that the EPO and omega 3 may be helpful.

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