Help please, I find this plan dreadful - any thoughts.

(44 Posts)
atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 09:54:23

Hi,

My daughter lives in our flat, we live somewhere else. I've now found out she is buying a tiny puppy which will only be the size of a large cat when it's full grown.

I am furious re the flat, but that's another 5 page rant. To add to this, she works full time and is planning to keep the puppy in her transit van in the carpark during the day. The van has 1 window and daylight at each side. She will pop out at lunchtime and take it for walks. It will have a rug, toys, food and water. She says the longest it will be left alone is about 2 hours and she'll be back out again, "as the smokers are always popping out for a smoke".

My feeling is 'poor little thing'. It is 4 weeks now and she is getting it when it's 10 weeks.

you could always say no pets in the flat.

You are right, this is a very poorly thought out situation on her part. A puppy needs socialisation and being stuck in a van is not the way to do it. sad

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 10:02:56

Her response is that friends of hers leave theirs in the kitchen during the day, at least she can see it more often.

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 10:04:06

She knows that if she'd asked, I would have said, 'No'.

PropositionJoe Fri 16-Nov-12 10:06:02

I think you can still say no! Say it's because of the flat.

HoneyDragon Fri 16-Nov-12 10:09:07

Can you contact the breeder? Hopefully it is a fairly decent one who will be horrified at it being kept in a van and refuse to let her have it?

What will she do in the Summer when it over heats?

flowery Fri 16-Nov-12 10:12:38

If she knows if asked you would have said no, you can still say no, surely? confused

WeatherWitch Fri 16-Nov-12 10:14:21

That's completely irresponsible - even in winter on a sunny day it could overheat quite quickly inside a van. The first warm summery day and it will die. Not to mention all the issues of socialisation etc. Dogs aren't good when left alone for prolonged periods, and just popping out to see it occasionally will only increase its separation anxiety. Say no because of the flat, and tell her that you'll set the RSPCA on her if she tries to keep it in a van.

FredWorms Fri 16-Nov-12 10:15:55

As others say, it won't work in the Summer. It just won't.

MrsZoidberg Fri 16-Nov-12 10:19:44

I thought pups needed warmth too, so downright cruel if it's not sunny aswell.

And what about toilet training or does she think that this poor little thing will be able to hold on for 2 hours?

WTFwasthat Fri 16-Nov-12 10:21:31

oh dear. poor puppyy sad i bet she hasnt bargained on the feelings og guilt when pup is whimpering sad

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 10:25:39

Thanks everyone. Apparently the breeder does know this.

The van has been converted so that you can stay on it in campsites, sorry not to mention that, it was a transit van. It has more insulation, a table and pulldown beds. I said that the police and RSPCA would be on her back in the summer but she said that the carpark is for her company only, she can keep the windows open for breeze and park it under a tree for shade. This from someone very intelligent....words fail me.

I have said, 'Dogs die in hot cars, you know that'. "It's not a car". We also saw a load of sniffer dogs in cages in a Police van over the Olympics and I think she thinks she can do the same.

Her boyfriend is an electrician and carts his soppy alsation around everywhere in the back of the van. Stops people ever trying to nick stuff. I can see where her idea has germinated. It's a PUPPY. <channelling Brian Conley>>

flowery Fri 16-Nov-12 10:35:31

Why don't you say no to a dog in the flat OP? confused

Trouble is OP, if you say "no" to the puppy in the flat, and she's determined to have it, would she try to keep it in the van 24/7

Or maybe you might end up with the puppy at your house?

(I'm not advocating saying Yes just so that the dog doesn't end up in the van BTW)

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 10:45:32

I have said "no" to the dog in the flat, the whole building has a policy of no pets so it's not just me.

She has said that she is at her BF's most of the time so she's not 100% residential in the building. She promises puppy will never be left alone in the flat to bark and annoy neighbours.

Even if we sort out where it's going to live, apart from the fact that the alsation might think it's a snack - there's still the problem of the van all day.

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 10:49:41

We have seriously fallen out over this, believe me, it's been (and still is) very upsetting. This is the first time we've argued with volume in about 10 years.

So , in reality, if the dog won't be allowed in the flat (due to the blanket ban on dogs- and if she does try to sneak it in, someone will hear it) then it's going to be in the van or at her BF all the time.

What kind of state is the van going to be in with an un toilet trained pup in it all day?
If she's determined, she'll do it. And the loser will be the dog .

Does the breeder know that this will be the case? ie the dog not in the flat? Or just what your daughter has told them- which might be what they want to hear.

No way would she get a rescue dog if she told them this was her plan angry

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 11:12:33

She is now actively looking to move out as I'm being so unreasonable and a downer on everything. hmm
Even if the puppy ends up living in a basket with the alsation till she moves out, my big problem is the van.

She says if she can sleep in it (and has) and a dog can sleep in it (and has) then a puppy can.

I always said she should have gone into law, she can argue each and every point and has the memory of the entire NASA Space station computer.

Thanks everyone, there is not one person who has said, "Oh, the puppy will be fine" and that's what I was checking.

Virtually everyone else has already made the excellent points that this is a dreadful, and irresponsible thing for your DD to be contemplating. No reputable breeder would be happy with this situation for an instant. If you are really committed to trying to stop this, try to find out if the breeder is either KC registered and report them to the KC, or if licensed by local authority, report them to the Council licensing department - by knowingly selling to such an irresponsible and cruel owner, the breeder is almost certainly breeching hte Animal Welfare Act. If htey aren't licensed, because too small, then report to HMRC.

Personally, if your DD also parks her van at her place of work, I would report this to her employer. No decent company will be happy at a potentially illegal activity being carried on in their car park, especially if you threaten to constantly ask the RSPCA and local Trading Standards to keep calling round.

SpicyPear Fri 16-Nov-12 13:34:30

I'm just shock at this... It's cruel and ridiculous for all the excellent points already made above. The poor think will go nuts locked up all day with a couple of visits. It won't even be able to go out walking at 10 weeks because of vaccinations. I think if she goes ahead she'll be in for quite a shock and she'll be putting it up for rehoming within six months.

If there is any way you can get through to her, please try again!

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:40:23

She's not cruel Scuttle, she cries at the drop of a hat at cruelty. Sometimes she just has no sense. Seriously no sense.

I can't talk to her at the moment as I am is such distress my throat has got what I call 'nervous stone' and I can't swallow. We are both calming down and I'll try again later.

All her friends are behind her and say they'll take it in turns to go down to the van and keep it company for 5 mins an hour. I will tell her that I have asked dog owners what they think and they are all against it.

Ephiny Fri 16-Nov-12 13:40:28

Does she know how much time and attention a new puppy needs, even just to get toilet training sorted out, not to mention the other basic training and socialisation they need? I wouldn't even consider a puppy while working full-time.

Surely no responsible breeder would consider her for a puppy in this situation - not just her working hours, but the fact that dogs aren't allowed in her flat and she plans to leave it in a van all day hmm. And buying from a less-than-responsible breeder is a bad idea for many reasons.

SpicyPear Fri 16-Nov-12 13:48:53

I'm sorry atolisis, I understand she's your daughter and you are giving her the benefit of the doubt but this is cruel and certainly not something someone "intelligent" would consider. How long is this enthusiasm from her friends going to last after a few goes retrieving a hyper pup from a van full of pee and poo? How old is she? Is she prepared for staying in every night and most of the weekend when the puppy is young?

She is putting her own selfish desire to have a puppy before the welfare of the animal. The more I think about this the more angry it makes me.

Ephiny Fri 16-Nov-12 13:54:48

Yes she may not mean to be cruel, but plenty of animal suffering (and dogs ending up in rescue/put to sleep) is caused by ignorance and lack of sense, rather than deliberate cruelty. I'm sure she's a kind and well-meaning person, but that doesn't make this a sensible plan, for all the reasons given above.

I still can't get over the fact that a breeder would be OK with a pup going to someone living in a flat that doesn't allow dogs confused. Do they know that?

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 13:56:43

I think she has realised how furious/upset I am. She has rarely heard me so incensed. She is old enough to not miss going out. I have told her that you need to have someone at home when a puppy is small.

We still have some weeks and I hope that her sister will come on board and be calmer in dissuading her.

I flatly disagree, OP. She IS being cruel and neglectful. This is a puppy, a vulnerable young creature. If she is this cavalier about its early care she is risking disease, theft, serious behavioural issues at a later date, overheating in summer, freezing in winter - does she have any idea how much pups CHEW? The pup will be at wires, cables, bodywork in the van, going mad with frustration and loneliness. It will be sitting in piles of its own shit and wee, as pups with the best training in the world take ages to get housetrained. Show her some of the threads on here about puppy ownership and the reality of the shit, the bites, the disturbed sleep, the chewed possessions, the frustration, the need for training. I am speechless that any one who knows a shred about care for dogs would regard this as anything other than cruel.

I can also foresee what will happen. ONce it is crapping all over her precious bloody van, and the van smells, and it is barking, and her boss complains, she will dump it, either on a rescue or in a pound. If in a pound, it will ahve seven days before it is killed. A poorly socialised dog with by that time undoubted behavioural issues. Does your daughter have any idea how many perfectly healthy, beautifully behaved dogs are killed in Council pounds each day? Has she BEEN to a Council pound? Does she ahve any idea how stressful a noisy, smelly kennel is for a dog, surrounded by strangers, unable to exhibit normal behaviours, then finally after a week led to its death by a stranger?

And if it goes to a rescue - well, poor bloody sods like me will then have the job of trying desperately to raise money for its care, find a home for a dog that is now behaviourally challenging, and coping with trying to find a foster home to rehabilitate it. It won't be your daughter, because irresponsible CRUEL owners like her seem to think rescues are full of lovely homes queueing up to provide a cosy sofa for damaged dogs. How I wish that fairy tale was true. I'm going to be standing with a collecting tin on Sunday actually - believe me I'd far rather be at home with DH, making marmalade for Christmas.

Show her this thread. Tell her again that her actions are CRUEL, and irresponsible.

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 14:31:55

Scuttle, you are preaching to the wrong person and now I really can't swallow.

Rest assured, if we can't dissuade her and I bloody hope we can, then it will not be put in a pound if it all goes tits up. We will have it. My DF is at home all day. In the past she has done things that we thought she was mad to do and she achieved them. She is doesn't give up and has achieved a lot because of that attitude. She has taken on the wrong thing here, from all angles, and I thank Christ I've found out about it before she brought the poor sod home.

I'll agree she is being cruel but she is not herself cruel. She has just been hearing the 'AAAAAhhhhh' noise from her friends and now she will hear the 'BOOOOO' noises. I have to be careful that she doesn't think that she has to prove us 'Boo'ers wrong.

BTW, I think it's going to be in a cage, not given free rein of the van or turning the radio on.

Thanks everyone, I have heard all I need to hear in order to write some points down and give them to her in black and white.

Lonecatwithkitten Fri 16-Nov-12 16:40:34

I thought you needed some facts to back your arguement.

Police dogs - the vehicles used for these dog have specialist air conditioning even then there are rules about how long the dogs can stay in the vehicle.

Temperature - when it is 22degrees in the shade outside the temperature inside a shaded vehicle can rise to 47degrees within 60minutes.

Shuting a puppy in a crate for the entire day breaks the Companion Animal Welfare groups Freedoms which are the corner stone of pet animal welfare.

Until the puppy has completed it's course of primary vaccinations at 11 weeks of age minimum the only safe outdoor ground is a personnal garden, she does not have access to this so all defaecating and urinating will have to occur in her flat or in the crate/van till this point. Putting it on the ground elsewhere prior to this puts it at risk of several fatal diseases.

Puppies like children train fastest with a consistent approach ie just one or two people. With many different people visiting the puppy and taking part in it's toilet training it is likely to take a very long time to train and I have seen several pups that are not housetrained at over 6 months of age due to this happening.

I admire the fact that she is capable of achieving a lot of things due to determination, however, in this instance it involves another living thing who will be willful and not want to go along with the plan.
I say all of this as someone who successful took her own dog to work, but he lives in the office and whilst a puppy I took him regularly to use the garden and my staff did not get involved in his training. All of this was in a vets surgery where I am a vet so with very experienced dog owner people.

Please feel free to print out my post and give it to her.

mignonette Fri 16-Nov-12 16:50:48

Tell her you will report her to the RSPCA the moment she leaves Pup in the van. Young dogs have poor Temperature regulation and it is not possible to regulate the temperature or ventilation in the van either. The Puppy will not be socialised if it is left alone in the so important first few months and being 'walked' by a continually changing parade of 'friends' means it will not form secure attachments nor will it learn that Humans are predictable, reliable and to be trusted. A pet is entirely dependent upon an owner for everything because we have domesticated all self reliance out of them.

It is completely out of the question that she should do this. You need to be absolutely firm.

If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

BF needs reporting too- I adore German Shepherds and imagining this loyal intelligent breed spending hours in a van as a living burglar alarm is heartbreaking and it makes me fume angry angry

You must not allow this to happen. Regardless of whether it upsets her/affects your relationship, you have a moral duty to prevent this in any way you can. So report her and the breeder if necessary. Sadly it is easier to ill treat a bred animal because shelters/RSPCA homes are so strict about who they re-home with and when I read threads like this, I thank god they are even if potentially great pet owners are refused a pet by them.

mignonette Fri 16-Nov-12 16:53:31

She is being cruel because she is placing sentimentality and her need for a cuddly lickle puppy before the animals needs. And the world is far too full of people carting 'cute' living creatures around dressed in ridiculous outfits or not being allowed to be a dog because they are actually an accessory or prop to somebodies life.

SpicyPear Fri 16-Nov-12 16:56:42

Excellent post lonecat. I'm no vaccs potocol expert but I would add that in my area the vets are recommending vaccination at 12 weeks for parvo and then 7 days before entering areas beyond the garden, because they are seeing cases in dogs completing their vaccinations earlier. So your daughter would have pup three weeks before it could even safely visit public areas.

Also, if left crated for two hours at a time, pup will almost certainly soil in the crate. Once a dog gets used to soiling their sleeping area it is much harder to house train them.

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 17:19:30

OMG, I've just written an ESSAY and it's gone.

To give a twitter version. Thank you everyone, I'm on your side and will cut and paste all the reasons against this into a Word doc to send.

The alsation only goes in the evenings, he has massive walks morning and evening - he's fit, happy and good natured. And I'm nervous of them usually.

I will also tell her to go to a vet for advice and see what a dressing down she would get.

This is horrible but I know people who she will listen to.

digerd Fri 16-Nov-12 17:26:54

What breed is it that will only be the size of a cat when fully grown? If a yorkshire terrier, they are very lively. and can be noisy.
But main thing here is "No pets allowed in the flats". Your daughter is not thinking rationally. As the dog is supposed to be a small breed, it will be tiny as a pup and very vulnerable at 10 weeks, much, much, more than her boyfriends large Alsation was at that age. Tell the breeder that she is not allowed pets in her flat, and will have to stay permanently in the van. Tell her now so she can offer the little cutie a safe home to someone else.

atosilis Fri 16-Nov-12 17:37:23

It's not a yorkie but some silly designer thing. I'm fuming and sick. She's saying she didn't know there were no pets. If she'd asked me, then I would have told her that the building policy was in place.

The BF is quite new and actually rescued the alsation when it was a skinny bedraggled 1 yr old. Dog is now gorgeous. Got to go home now but will be back later.

Thanks everyone, seriously, this is what I needed although I hate this nuclear argument, out of nowhere. I'm very laid back but hopefully she'll realise she's lost the plot - not me.

digerd Fri 16-Nov-12 18:15:00

Designer dogs are cross breeds and not recognised by the Kennel Club.

Yes, she has definately lost the plot, not you. Hope she sees that.

ccarpenton Sat 17-Nov-12 20:21:25

Sorry to say, I think she is either lacking something emotionally (and therefore wants this to fill a hole) - or she is shallow and thinks it will be fun to "own" a cute little doggy.

There is no indication of care here about owning a dog.

Do her a deal -- tell her to take a week off work and spend every day in the back of a transit van with friends coming to quickly say HELLO and pat her head every couple of hours.

Dogs don't become inanimate when you leave them and suddenly spring back to life when you re-appear. They are not toys. If your daughter can cope with being in the back of a van with nothing to do all day for one week, then maybe the dog will cope too?

... but I doubt it ...

Quodlibet Sat 17-Nov-12 20:31:42

Besides the short-term issue of leaving a puppy in a van all day, this dog will live 12-18 years. It doesn't sound like your daughter is in a position of stability to know she can provide a stable home and care for an animal. How many rental flats does she think will accept dogs, if she's not living in your place, or with (new) bf?

LadyTurmoil Sat 17-Nov-12 20:37:18

spicypear made all the good points as have others. Your daughter has to realise this a really BAD idea. Get her to read this thread or some of the others where people talk about how hard it is with a small puppy - keep a dog in a van for 8-9 hours a day, bloody hell!

kitsmummy Wed 21-Nov-12 16:50:06

Show your daughter this story in today's Mail - she can get prosecuted for having a dog live in a car www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236313/Saima-Bi-Kiran-Hussain-banned-keeping-animals-dog-Bella-locked-hot-car.html

SpicyPear Wed 21-Nov-12 17:00:29

Oh no, poor Bella sad That brought a little tear to my eye...

BlissfullyIgnorant Thu 22-Nov-12 16:17:37

Totally out of order and thoroughly unacceptable.
Is the breeder running a puppy farm?

getoffthecoffeetable Tue 04-Dec-12 08:30:39

Have you asked her how she'd feel if the van was stolen with puppy inside it? That happened to someone I know as he'd taken his dog to work. They sprayed the dog's face and stole the van. Luckily his dog was found as it had been returned to a vet's and he's micro chipped but it could've been a very different ending.
Agree with everyone else that dogs shouldn't be kept in vehicles, especially not in the summertime.

MrsWolowitz Tue 04-Dec-12 08:43:08

She is being rediculous and selfish.

What a silly thing to consider angry

Stinkyminkymoo Tue 04-Dec-12 08:49:36

I think your DD is being cruel which must be hard to hear for you.

Please try your hardest to dissuade her, this is so far removed from a good idea it's not even in the same universe!

I'm also annoyed and disappointed in the breeder. They must clearly be motivated purely by money as a) 'designer dog breeds' are just very expensive mongrels, so likely to have cost your DD a fair bit and b) no breeder worth their puppies would be happy to have one of their babies live in a van. Disgusting behaviour from them as well.

I am very angry all round at this.

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