Labradoodles...

(269 Posts)
MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 08:53:45

Anyone got one?

DH and I are thinking of getting one. We have three young DC, a older dog (8) and a cat. We fancy a fleece coated one to limit shedding.

We are very active and both run a lot of miles so the dog will be our running buddy.

I'm in the South West, specifically Cornwall, can anyone recommend a good breeder? We are willing to travel if needs be.

Any advice or experience of labradoodles out there?

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 08:55:31

Should also add that we have both had dogs all our lives so are very confident with them. DH used to rehome retired police dogs so is experienced with head-strong dogs.

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 08:59:03

Make sure you find out what happens to the pups that don't "turn out right". Not every Labrador/poodle cross is a labradoodle.

If you are looking for a certain type of coat, don't go for a Labradoodle.
Their coat changes about 3 times before they are 2 and you have no idea what type you will get.

When we got our big ball of fluff, he was a wirey short haired little thing. Now He needs to be clipped 2-3 times a year and he moults enough to stuff a cushion weekly.
Plus my vet has always told me never to over do the exercise as they can still inherit the hip dysplasia from Labs and do some serious damage.

If you REALLY have your heart set on a Doodle, contact the Labradoodle Trust. They rescue and rehome all the Doodles that people ditch because they weren't 'right'

Must be said though. I love my ball of fluffy madness!grin

OhDeerHauntingFENTON Thu 11-Oct-12 09:18:48

Bloody hell, what happens to the ones who don't turn out right? Am I about to feel outraged about these custom made dogs?

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 09:51:15

Well, if they are being bred by a professional with a living to make, initially what happens to all puppies that are obviously not "right" at birth.

But if the breeder is uncrupulous, which many (not all) are, they are then sold to people who don't know any better and end up in rehoming centres when they turn out not to be "non shedding" and "hypoallergenic" after all.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 09:57:13

What's wrong with getting a standard poodle?

I don't understand people who get dogs for what they look like or what coat type they have. I prefer to own dogs whose physical, social and mental needs suit my lifestyle and whose personality is endearing to me.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 09:58:20

shock

That's terrible sad

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 10:02:35

D0in because I like labradoodles.

They have excellent reputations with children and families (better than a poodle although we did used to have a lovely poodle).

Plus I want one. What's the matter with that? That's a bit like saying "why get a mongrel/Alsatian/spaniel when you can get a schnauzer/GS/whatever"

It's not like they are being bred to be unhealthy (think bulldogs) they are two nice breeds being mixed to make a rather lovely mongrel.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 10:03:38

Oh and as I listed above, the labradoodles physical, social and mental needs to match mine. Hence why we chose one.

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 10:07:34

Well, I think encouraging the breeding of more dogs is wrong. Regardless of breed.

There are plenty of rescue labradoodles to be had if you are set on the breed.

Inthepotty Thu 11-Oct-12 10:09:10

I've a labradoodle. My stupid SIL bought him from a 'breeder' who told her he wouldn't moult and as he was a cross would be the most healthy dog in the history of the world. I pinched him off of her at 15 weeks, after she turned out to be the worst dog owner ever.

His coat was originally a loose wool, not much shedding. It's now scruffy lab and he sheds like a bastard, and is also allergic to chicken, with various other intolerances that make his eyes runny, and skin bad. We have recently started with a working trials club, and on the advice of my trainer, who breeds labs, have decided that I won't ever compete/work my dog properly, as his back end is 'weak' (slimmer and longer than front) and I don't want to put pressure on his joints doing big jumps.

I'm always trying to put people off doodles. Mine is a lovely lovely boy and I love him to bits, but Labradors and Poodles are lovely dogs, too. My DH never liked poodles until we saw one in a puppy clip, (same length all over) and said how much they were like our dog!

My next dog will be a standard poodle, a fantastic, bright, all round fab breed.

Inthepotty Thu 11-Oct-12 10:12:34

Labradoodles needs all differ as no two are the same. For instance, Labs in general need about 2 hours as adult dogs- a labxpoodle crossed with a standard poodle will have different needs than a labxminature poodle cross lab, IYSWIM.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 10:12:44

I don't think deliberate cross breeding is a good thing given that dogs of all breeds are already over populated, creating more breeds for the sake of fashion is adding to the problem.

All doodle breeders are in it for the money, they are not a recognised breed, so there is no other possible reason to keep creating them, plus they've sparked a very stupid trend of cross breeding anything and everything together to make yet more breeds, my sister recently told me she wants a Jug, what the fuck is jug I ask you? I advised her that they were on sale in Wilkos last time I looked, if a plastic jug was all she needed, she'd only be looking at 70p, she was not impressed.

Many if not most doodle breeders, do not health test the parents, meaning that a lot of doodles do have health problems.

There are more than enough good family breeds out there already - Labradors, Retrievers, Staffies, Greyhounds, CKC Spaniels to name but a few. We don't need more breeds, rescues certainly do not need more breeds.

Cross breeding for certain traits is a risk. You could end up with a dog that is 99% lab, you could end up with a dog that is 99% poodle. Of course there are then the 2nd gen, third gen etc, where you are more likely to be able to predict what sort of cross you will get, but again it's only more likely, it's not an exact science.

Labradoodle Trust advises people with allergies who want a non shedding dog not to get a doodle. Staffies don't shed much and they're good family dogs.

OhDeerHauntingFENTON Thu 11-Oct-12 10:16:16

I've got a lab border collie cross, and he is just the best dog in the world (yes, he is).

He's intelligent, gentle, affectionate and obedient.

And he moults like a bastard. It matters not though because he is perfect in every other way - and besides it actually gets me vacuuming much more than I used to which was rarely wink

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 10:19:14
MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 10:20:16

I get your points but I disagree about doodles being ethically wrong and intend to make one an honorary Wolowitz.

We've had GS/poodles/Alsatians/schnauzers/yorkies and a few mongrels thrown in for good measure.

They've all been great dogs (except one who was a git til the day he died, ex police dog with an attitude problem). We just both fancy a labradoodle. Obviously if while we're looking for a puppy we fall in love with another poodle/lab/whatever we'll go for that but as it stands that's what we want.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 10:24:14

and this bit which says pretty much everything i would say on the subject.

rehome a poodle

lab rescue i'm sure would have plenty needing homes too.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 10:28:57

of course, if you insist, make sure you see mother and puppies togther, don't buy from Wales, or anyone who does home delivery, google the breeders phone number - any other litters for sale = a puppy farmer
insist on seeing hip scores, eye certs as a minimum - Sebaceous adenitis skin punch

so many puppy farmers sell doodles, and some are very good at disguising the nature of the operation.

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 10:30:07

"I get your points but I disagree about doodles being ethically wrong"

So you don't get our points, then!.

AgathaFusty Thu 11-Oct-12 10:35:34

Everytime I take our Standard Poodle out someone asks if he is a labradoodle, because he is clipped to the same length all over with no shaved areas. He's nearly 13, so that's an awful lot of people who have mistaken him for a labradoodle over the years.

MrsW - I think people are only questioning your choice because there are so many unethical 'breeders' of lab/poodle crosses. There is also a huge rehoming problem with them because, as other posters have said, they very often turn out to be not what people wanted or expected.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 10:36:20

Seeker to be fair I didn't start this thread for it to be a debate on cross-breeds.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 10:38:37

Agatha yes, I understand about unethical breeders and that's a really good point. I would, of course, never consider going to a puppy farm.

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 10:44:04

<shrug>

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

AgathaFusty Thu 11-Oct-12 10:57:52

It's not just puppy farming though. It's the many, many breeders who are breeding their lab with a mate's poodle, or advertising for a stud poodle for their lab, without running all the checks that a knowledgable and experienced breeder would do, without understanding how pedigrees etc work.

Unfortunately, because there is such a high demand for these x-breed puppies people are happy to pay a high price for them, so lots of people are seeing it as a way to make a few quid. They are not running puppy farms, they're just having one litter at a time, maybe just one a year. But they are lacking in integrity and the knowledge to breed properly. Many are advertising the pups as 'raised in a home' used to children' etc etc so they sound ok.

There is a woman near to us who is one of these 'breeders'. I've met around a dozen or so dogs who were bred by her. Several of their owners have told me that she is very reputable and the local expert on these dogs. None of these puppies/dogs look alike, some moult and some don't. They vary in size and build. They also vary considerably in temperament, although that is probably down to their owners as much as anything. One man told me that they had rehomed the first puppy they had from the breeder after a year because it moulted, but they went straight back for another one to try again confused.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 10:58:19

Wow. Seeker really? You really think that I'm part of the problem?

Perhaps nobody should have any dogs. Or animals at all for that matter. Then there would be no need for any breeders, ethical or unethical at all.

Seriously, I think you may have lost some perspective. I want a puppy from a reputable breeder. I have done my fair share of rescue dogs and now I want a puppy from a breeder.

Bizarre post.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 11:02:12

I have a six yr old goldendoodle who is terribly lovely and doesn't moult one bit ever. She lies down apart from when out walking. She does love mud and water and all kinds of shit, but hey you can't have everything.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 11:03:49

Standard poodles are nice too. Every lab and golden retriever I see is a great big old fatty.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 11:05:17

STAFFIES DON'T SHED MUCH????

bloody hell. they bloody do and their little short hairs get stuck in everything.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 11:09:09

"Every lab and golden retriever I see is a great big old fatty"

this is the owners fault for not doing the ages of exercise they need...

though the lab hungry gene seems to be dominant, from what i've seen amongst doodles...

Bwahahahahahah at Staffies don't shed much!!
I have one of those too. (A 'designer' dog and a 'chav' dog!!)

Doodle fur collects in lumps on the floor, Staffy fur sticks to you!

I'm pretty sure that the Lab greedy gene is dominant.

Me ,Misdee and LisaD123 have Doodles from the same litter and they are all pigs with fur!
grin

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 11:12:36

yy my doodle is a great dustbin, but I am tres strict.

No hair tho, nary a one.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 11:12:52

There are no reputable breeders of Doodles, that is the issue. A reputable breeder breeds only when they need a puppy. They breed to improve their chosen breed and breed out health problems. They search extensively for a mate to suit their bitch, even going so far as to look at dogs from different countries in some cases.

There are better than some breeders of doodles, but there are no reputable breeders. A reputable breeder is not in it for the money. Money is the only possible reason to breed Doodles, they are not a recognised breed. There is no other reason to breed them.

And yy to what Seeker said. If you want a puppy, fine, there are loads in rescue. If you don't want a rescue puppy, then chose an actual breed and find a real reputable breeder. Otherwise, yes, you are part of the problem. Supply and demand, as long people are willing to pay ridiculous prices for what is essentially a mongrel because they are fashionable, then unscrupulous people will continue to exploit dogs for the sake of fattening their wallet.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 11:14:15

I do agree dooin, mine came about by happenstance.

I don't think any dogs should be bred.

All pet keeping is ridiculous.

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Oct-12 11:14:28

The thing is though that if they're breeding labradoodles, they're unlikely to be reputable breeders, good ethical breeders breed dogs to either produce the best physical specimens of that breed or to perform a certain job and sell the ones they don't want. Labradoodles don't have a type to be breeding to - so they're mostly being bred to make money.

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 11:15:49

D0in has it spot on as per.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 11:16:54

But hang on, these reputable breeders who breed to get best of type, breed out disease etc, why do they do it? Altruism? Do they not sell the pups?

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 11:21:35

Usually because they want a puppy Hully, for the purposes of showing or working the dogs, although some do it simply because they love the breed and want to see it continue and improve. There is very, very little money to be made from breeding when it's done the way it should be. The prices of the puppies only just cover the costs of breeding, if they cover them at all.

elastamum Thu 11-Oct-12 11:24:53

There are good and bad breeders of all dogs, even recognised breeds. You only have to look at some of the health problems arising in KC registered breeds because of a much to small gene pool, to realise that this isnt a charge that can just be laid at the feet of doodle breeders.

The worst thing that could hapen to labradoodles is that they get recognised by the KC and then become subject to the ever shrinking gene pool problem, that is the issue with so many recognised breeds and something that the KC like to sweep under the carpet as they watch the health issues in so many breeds mount up.

I have 3 labradoodles, including rehomed. Labradoodles make great pets in the right home, but not in the wrong home. BUT, I do think everything the doodle trust says about them is accurate.

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 11:26:20

Of course you're part of the problem! If you buy a doodle from a breeder, you are supporting the industry. If you want a doodle there are loads of rescue ones.

misdee Thu 11-Oct-12 11:31:19

Yup my doodle is food led. I can get him back in the house just opening the kitchen door.

He sheds like crazy, is clipped 6 times a year, despite being personal clowns dog brother, he is different in coat type. He suffers ear problems as has lab floppy ears combined with poodle fur type.

But he is the sweetest dog ever. Hard bloody work, but sweet. Fantastic with my children, great temperament. Just a really lovely dog.

Dh suffered a bad allergic reaction last summer to the 2nd coat change.

Would I get another labradoodle ithe future? No. Because its taken 2+ years, a lot of heartache, a lot of expense, and hardworking just to get to the point where he is this good. He is my 7th child, I love him, but he is an intelligent, strong minded, food led, bundle of fur. He is here to stay.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 11:36:32

OP I'd like to help answer your question rather than give an opinion you didn't ask for. We have a lovely Cockapoo we got from Cornwall - have you considered one? If you would like details then feel free to message me. She has a lovely temperament with the DCs, enjoys her runs and doesn't shed a hair. Alternatively I've had several ex-racing greyhounds and thoroughly recommend them, too!

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 11:58:20

Sorry OP but you are part of the problem.

As others have said, Labradoodles are NOT a breed, they're a mongrel. Therefore the people breeding them are purely after money, they're not doing it for the love of a recognised breed with the intent of improving and continuing the line.

By all means get a rescue labradoodle or indeed any rescue dog but buying a puppy in these circumstances would be utterly wrong and no genuine dog lover would do so.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 12:01:14

They aren't a mongrel, btw. They are a crossbreed.

Mongrels have three or more constituent parts, crossbreeds have two.

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 12:07:51

Are you sure that's right? I always thought crossbreed was just a BYB's way of making a mongrel seem more appealing.

I thought any dog which wasn't a recognised breed was technically a mongrel. The only dog I'd make an exception for is an Alaskan Husky which is bred very carefully but just not for a standard appearance.

I don't mean mongrel pejoratively by the way, some of my best friends have been mongrels.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 12:09:17

Chocolate where was your cockapoo from?

Hully your dog sounds like my fantasy dog!

As for the discussion/debate regarding ethics I disagree and tbh has reminded me why The Doghouse has a (often undeserved) bad reputation.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 12:10:23

yars - crossbreeds result from two pure breed parents.

Mongrels are a mix

AgathaFusty Thu 11-Oct-12 12:12:53

Why do you disagree?

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 12:15:01

My Cockapoo is from St Austell and I can message you the tel no or other details if you like?

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 12:19:25

OED definition of a mongrel is a dog with parents of different breeds. But not going to argue. smile

toboldlygo Thu 11-Oct-12 12:20:01

I don't understand what the crossing of the lab and poodle is supposed to add to the dog. Both labs and poodles, done right, are intelligent, active, biddable family or working dogs. The only thing the cross seems to add is an unpredictable coat - if you specifically require a non-shedding dog, why not just pick the poodle?

elastamum Thu 11-Oct-12 12:22:21

I disagree, some labradoodles breeders are very committed to the type. The breeder I got dog one from imported at least one breeding sire from Australia as they wanted to ensure that as F2 labradodles they came from a different gene pool to their current ones.

You have probably come to the wrong place for doodle advice. The doghouse regulars unfortunately hate labradoodles, and their owners, and their breeders........

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 12:22:39

It's the funny name = £££££.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 12:37:03

Also, crossbreeds are "deliberate"

mongrels are accidents

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 12:49:48

I'm not a doghouse regular. And I don't hate labradoodles.

What I hate exploitation of animals, making money out of gullible dog buyers and the breeding of puppies that may well end up being pts or in a rehoming centre. And the production of more dogs when there are so many already born that need homes.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 12:54:26

Seeker as I have mentioned numerous times I have rescued lots of dogs. I am experienced and doubt many people have rescued more dogs especially dogs with 'ishoos' than me.

I don't want a rescue dog this time. I want a puppy. I am allowed and it doesn't make me a bad person, irresponsible or gullible.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 12:58:52

" The doghouse regulars unfortunately hate labradoodles, and their owners, and their breeders........"

I love dogs in a fairly indescriminate fashion, owners sometimes, and breeders rarely.

elastamum the export of dogs from a place from as far away as Austrailia raises ethical questions all by itself (unless the import came in a test tube!)

some of the Austrailian kennels exporting these dogs had very dubious practices indeed

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Oct-12 13:01:16

It's about the fact that there isn't actually a type to be committed to...puppies in the same litter come out completely different, you can't predict coat type - even in F2s, a lot are then back crossed with poodles, so you get a nearly poodle.

There's nothing wrong with a nearly poodle or a mix of anything, but if you're not breeding them to show or to work, then what's the point? It's about making money and labradoodles are ridiculous prices.

It's no worse than someone breeding their pet pedigree, but at least among those there are some people breeding for other reasons.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 13:08:57

They are ridiculous prices wish I'd bred mine

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 13:16:16

I have rescued lots of dogs. I am experienced and doubt many people have rescued more dogs especially dogs with 'ishoos' than me.

That's a mighty ambitious claim in this company. How many is 'lots'?

Am having trouble believing that a dedicated rescuer would buy a labradoodle puppy. As you well know, there are plenty of pups in rescue.

midori1999 Thu 11-Oct-12 13:19:11

I don't understand what the crossing of the lab and poodle is supposed to add to the dog. Both labs and poodles, done right, are intelligent, active, biddable family or working dogs. The only thing the cross seems to add is an unpredictable coat - if you specifically require a non-shedding dog, why not just pick the poodle?

This. I think part of the problem is that people imagine poodles to be 'airy fairy' show type dogs, when in fact, they were bred to be working dogs and can be fantastic.

I don't hate labradoodles, I couldn't ever hate a dog. However, I have yet to see a breeder that I believe is ethical and I don't believe that anyone breeding crossbreeds can be ethical.

There are already breeds to suit each and every person and their family and lifestyle. We have more than enough dogs in this country, so many that around 25,000 a year are put to sleep. In fact, going by the latest figures on staffs and their crosses alone, it could be half that number again. Anyone who is breeding dogs needs to have seriously good reasons why and be doing so in a completely ethical manner.

Hully as for why breeders breed and whether they are altruistic... anyone breeding ethically will be spending far more keeping and showing/working their dogs than they will ever make from the few litters they have. In fact, they'll be lucky to even break even on each litter alone. I spent £4,500 on my first litter, having had to pay someone to look after my horses for 9 weeks. That doesn't include earnings lost due to time of from self employment. Breeding dogs properly is expensive.

UterusUterusGhali Thu 11-Oct-12 13:19:20

I think op is getting a lot of undeserved vitriol IMO. Sure, they're not a breed, bit nor were JRTs before that vicar decided he wanted a terrier that looked and acted just so.

I don't disagree that a lot of breeders are just after a fast buck on gumtree, but there must be some that enjoy breeding for the biological wonder of it, or whyever people get into it.

Fwiw I think "breeds" of dog is a really odd concept. I'd never join the KC, and only have a "pedigree" by accident.

It's eugenics whether it's a doodle or a Spaniel.

Op, I've met some, they seem lovely, and the "generation" makes a difference I'm told. Other than that I have no advice.

seeker Thu 11-Oct-12 13:20:34

Not vitriol. Facts.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 13:21:43

Agatha yes, I understand about unethical breeders and that's a really good point. I would, of course, never consider going to a puppy farm

If you are buying a crossbreed, by very definition you are going to a puppy farm. They are bred solely due to the demand for 'designer' dogs. Otherwise they would be 'free to good home' accidental matings - which brings its own problems.

You say you want a puppy, there are plenty of puppies in Rescue. There are also plenty of 5 year old ex breeding dogs from puppy farms. Poodles and Labradors galore. My local rescue currently has Labradoodles, Cockerpoos and Sprollies amongst the SBTs and Huskies. Many Tears has all those plus an awful lot of ex breeding dogs - especially Bichon's and Yorkies.

No-one on here is being rude to you OP. What you have got is a lot of people with experience giving you the benefit of that experience. Lots of people that work FOR dogs, and see the disasters caused by overbreeding - of ALL dogs. Those of us that see every day the dogs in Rescue or being killed because of the next 'Fad' breed.

Your first statement was that you wanted a Labradoodle to 'limit shedding' - People on here have Labradoodles, most of whom shed. You shouldn't discount their experience. Too many owners dump the dogs when they don't live up to their expectations.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 13:22:52

Rhinestone I have mentioned numerous times about dogs that we have had, including (4 if you would like exact numbers) retired police dogs inlcuding one that we retired early due to injury on duty. I'm not sure how familiar you are with dogs who work in this field however, rehoming them is no mean feat and requires a lot of effort and time and confidence.

I therefore take umbrage at being labelled potentially gullible and irresponsible. There are plenty of pups in rescue however this time I would like the luxurty of attending a breeders, meeting the parents and choosing a puppy from a litter. As I said that makes me neither a bad person, gullible or irresponsible.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 13:25:06

Lt I want a labradoodle and would prefer a fleece coat to limit shedding. If it sheds its no big deal. I would just prefer to limit it.

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 13:30:38

I wouldn't call 4 'lots' personally. I have rescued more dogs than you and I suspect many others on this thread have too.

And not sure taking on retired police dogs really counts as 'rescue'.

I really, genuinely don't understand why you wouldn't rehome from the Labradoodle Trust or Lab / Poodle rescue.

Have you ever had a puppy before? They're fucking hard work. If you really really want a puppy, have you considered applying to be a puppy socialiser for Guide Dogs or Hearing Dogs for the Deaf?

MrsW, I can't help you with a breeder as we live faaaaaaaaaaaaar away, but we have a 9 month old Labradoodle, it's our first dog, and she is a dream. In my (non-existent) experience, best dog ever! Ours is not the cleverest dog, but so gentle, loving, always happy, and ridiculously tolerant with visiting toddlers, even when they pull her tail, tease her etc. Wonderful dog, and full of energy, always. Get one!!

midori1999 Thu 11-Oct-12 13:31:29

So, if there are no ethical breeders of labradoodles, are you just going to buy from an unethical one?

GoldShip Thu 11-Oct-12 13:33:15

I think the point is that if the breeder were an ethical one in the first place, there wouldnt be a labradoodle?

I don't really like the creating of these animals as they end up being fads, and soon get disowned once the fashion is over and they're no longer willing to put up with the animal.

HiHowAreYou Thu 11-Oct-12 13:39:23

My friend has a chocolate brown labradoodle. It's a lovely animal.

Why shouldn't someone fall in love with one and decide they want one? They're nice dogs!

Well you aren't going to find an ethical breeder are you because every breeder putting these dogs together are doing it for money. Pure and simple.

I honestly fail to understand, when there are so many puppy's in rescue and being PTS why anyone has to go to a breeder to get a puppy.
You may well be a fantastic dog owner and keep your puppy forever.
But what about the rest of the litter?
These types of breeder do not, AFAIK, take too much time to get to know the people who are buying these puppies, they don't take time to make sure people understand the practicalities of having a puppy, whether their lifestyle is suitable and I doubt they would take the puppy back if there was a problem.
So that's more puppies in rescue and being PTS.

Its all wrong.

And tbh if you have rescued dogs in the past, actually been to a rescue and seen how many unwanted dogs there are, you wouldn't contemplate buying from a BYB IMO

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 13:43:22

its an ethics question, not an 'oh wook at the pwetty doggy' question.

OP requested recommend of good breeder. some people here don't think there are any. (i think there are better and worse ones, none i'd recommend.)

NaomiPaula Thu 11-Oct-12 13:49:42

Hi just want to add that we have a labradoodle 3yrs old - fantastic dog BUT
he does shed (not loads but enough!!), is vvvvv greedy have to be v strict with food and you cannot leave anything on any side tall enough to reach most things!! Can get into the bin easily so meat cannot be left in there for a minute! destoyed the house when a puppy even though not left for long periods (i am stay at home mum so was always around) will still chew a shoe if given opportunity! Loves mud and water!! has allergies, always had bad ears (from poodle!) so spend fortune at vets on drops etc

BUT he is a big (very) bundle of love! Have two kids and he is very good with them, no agrresion to anyone human or animal! as long as he gets his walks (1-2 hrs per day) then he is happy!! Sleeps most of the day and does not pester you in the house
Can't help with breeder as ours from Hull and not breeding anymore - did two litters only the mum was a lovely family dog.....
Sorry for essay but just want to say that they are fantastic dogs so would hesitate recomending a doodle!!

slightlycrumpled Thu 11-Oct-12 13:54:39

We have a 5 month old labradoodle/ crossbreed. She is lovely, I also can't help with the breeder as it was a one off litter. We are delighted with her. Both parents had gad the relevant health checks done which we were able to see etc.

We love ours to bits, she doesn't malt so far, but the breeder did make us aware that it probably won't stay that way. We are going to be doing some PAWS training with dogs for the disabled for my son with her. She is fab.

No one is saying not to get that particular dog if that's what you love.
It's the fact that they are bread by people who only care about money and not the welfare of the animals.
They breed because people are willing to pay a lot of money for a designer dog when there are plenty of dogs who need rehoming.

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 13:55:31

No-one is saying that labradoodles can't be great dogs - ALL most dogs are fantastic after all. They're dogs!

We are simply imploring the OP not to buy a puppy from an unethical breeder who is motivated purely by money.

If the OP really did have the 'rescue' credentials that she claims to have, she wouldn't be contemplating this.

slightlycrumpled Thu 11-Oct-12 13:56:31

Oh & we didn't pay anywhere near the prices I have seen on preloved. I don't believe that our breeder will have made much at all.

toboldlygo Thu 11-Oct-12 14:00:16

There are already breeds to suit each and every person and their family and lifestyle.

Precisely. The qualities of the labradoodle already exist not just in its two parent breeds but probably another half a dozen existing dog breeds - curly coated retrievers and Irish water spaniels come to mind.

Uterus, 'eugenics' is very useful when you need dogs for specific purpose. The police would no more use a greyhound for detaining criminals than I would put a shih tzu in harness and expect it to pull a sled. Parson Russell wanted a terrier for a specific purpose (digging up badgers IIRC) and found the existing fox terrier lacking. Fair enough. For someone wanting an active family pet there already exist hundreds of breeds to fit the purpose, as well as too many thousands of unwanted dogs in rescue that would fit the bill as well.

I'm not against breeding or even crossbreeding, just against indiscriminate breeding for £££ rather than for good reason. I loathe the 'doesn't shed', 'healthier than a pedigree' bollocks that usually accompanies them because it ends up with people dumping them when their expectations aren't met or the dogs having shortened, painful lives because they didn't bother to screen the parents.

Oh please god do not buy your dog from preloved or Facebook or anywhere like that. Please.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 14:00:54

I have three rescue dogs at my feet right now, that's not counting those I have taken on a short notice, short term emergency basis (apart from the one who was supposed to be short term and is increasingly looking as though he is here for the foreseeable) or the ones who have already found their forever home.

Having witnessed first hand what happens when pups are sold to the highest bidder with no thought as to the suitability of the owner I could not bring myself to support a breeder of crossbreeds/designer dogs/mongrels. I can't understand why anyone who has been closely involved with rescue could.

I have no issue with actual, reputable breeders, doodles themselves or people who have walked blindfolded into buying one without knowing what exactly they are supporting. I do judge people who ask for the facts and then go ahead anyway because they think they somehow deserve to own what ever breed they choose, sod the ethics because they have done good deeds in the past.

OP you cannot get away from the fact that by buying a doodle you will be supporting an industry that is exploiting dogs for the sake of money and money alone. If you want to choose a puppy from a breeder, go ahead, but chose an actual breed and a reputable breeder.

AgathaFusty Thu 11-Oct-12 14:03:50

My friend has a chocolate brown labradoodle. It's a lovely animal.Why shouldn't someone fall in love with one and decide they want one? They're nice dogs!

But, since they have no 'breed standard', they can turn any any which way. Some nice, some not so, some shedding, some not, some look like poodles, some like labs, many like scruffy mutts of indeterminable origin, large, small or in the middle. Some have the lab greedy thing going on, some have the poodles intelligent and inuitive nature, some quiet, some not. And you can't tell any of this from viewing one as a puppy or seeing the parents, since many of the puppies don't resemble the adult dogs they will become in terms of coat, shedding, size etc.

That's why I don't really understand when someone says they want one - because what do they actually want?

d0oin that's what I can't understand.
Anyone that's ever rescued dogs would never ever even think about buying a puppy from any old breeder. It's unthinkable.
Every one of my dogs have been rescues. Every dog I ever have will be a rescue.

overthemill Thu 11-Oct-12 14:12:25

Labradoodles can be lovely dogs and they sometimes don't moult/shed but they often do. You cannot guarantee their coat. Rescuing a labradoodle with a known coat (so an older one) would be one way of getting the right coat eg for allergies but beware: my dd is allergic to our labradoodle even though she wasn't t our last one.

here are lots of great doodle breeders on here which is approved by the Labradoodle Trust

I home check for and have fostered for the Labradoodle Trust. Please make sure the puppy/dog you choose will fit into your family for its whole life

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 14:34:06

Where have I said I would buy from any old breeder? confused hmm

In fact I've asked in my OP for any recommendations. Very strange the way this thread is going.

HiHowAreYou Thu 11-Oct-12 14:34:35

Not everyone getting a designer crossbreed will be a thoughtless idiot who gives their dog away when its fur is too fluffy.

If you like poodles and you like labradors, their temperament, but you prefer the look of a labradoodle, that's valid.

Some people like dogs, partially for their appearance. It isn't a crime.

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 14:38:39

Rhinestone <sigh> 4 have been retired police dogs. The others have been from all over. Yes I have had puppies before.

This thread is bloody annoying TBH. Very few people have actually read my OP and answered questions. The rest have made assumptions and judgements. Thank you to the ones who have actually read and responded to my OP.

<makes mental note to avoid the doghouse in future. Shame but I guess it really does deserve the reputation it has>

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 14:41:05

Leonburgers were bred on an individual's whim many years ago and are now an established breed. I guess it all starts somewhere.

So if ethical breeders don't breed for money, and do it to improve the breed/work/show, where is everyone getting all these pedigree dogs? confused

op do you mind if I ask why you would not get a rescue puppy?

I'm just curious why you have decided to go down this route. Or have you been unable to find a rescue puppy?

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 14:45:40

This is going around in circles.

<speaks very slowly>

If. You. Buy. A. Doodle. You. Will. Be. Buying. From. Any. Old. Breeder.

Even with one of the better Doodle breeders, as on the link earlier, you will still be supporting someone who is willing to risk the life of their bitch purely for financial gain. This is not the kind of person a genuine dog lover would want to support.

Not to mention that you will also be paying into and therefore supporting the whole designer dog culture. No reputable breeder would breed Doodles, no-one who genuinely understands and cares about animal welfare, breeding and the ethics there of, would continue to breed 'designer' crosses given the path they have now taken.

My main issue is with the whole designer breed culture. People are breeding all kinds of things now, you can get Noodles, Sproodles, CockaDoodles, Chugs, Jugs. Anything can be made into a silly sounding "breed" is considered fair game. All for the sake of £££.

By buying a Doodle you will be supporting that whole industry and allowing it to continue.

If you really need a Doodle, get a rescue. If you really want a good with family puppy and are not bothered about shedding, as you claim, then get a Lab or a Retriever, they are exactly the same as Doodles are supposed to be when they turn out right, but without the myth of being anti allergy.

I found this post:

^AgathaFusty Thu 11-Oct-12 14:03:50
My friend has a chocolate brown labradoodle. It's a lovely animal.Why shouldn't someone fall in love with one and decide they want one? They're nice dogs!

But, since they have no 'breed standard', they can turn any any which way. Some nice, some not so, some shedding, some not, some look like poodles, some like labs, many like scruffy mutts of indeterminable origin, large, small or in the middle. Some have the lab greedy thing going on, some have the poodles intelligent and inuitive nature, some quiet, some not. And you can't tell any of this from viewing one as a puppy or seeing the parents, since many of the puppies don't resemble the adult dogs they will become in terms of coat, shedding, size etc

That's why I don't really understand when someone says they want one - because what do they actually want?^

Raised some very good points, what exactly is it that you are expecting from a Doodle that you can't find in a Lab or Retriever?

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 14:46:07

Awww look at the leonburger

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 14:47:56

I do just have to say in the interests of honesty and accuracy that all the goldendoodles I know (many) look EXACTLY alike and none of them shed. It may just be astonishing coincidence, but it is true.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 15:01:51

The ones in the gallery on the link further up the thread look to me like over grown, shaggy terrier crosses. I have a dog who likes like smaller version of this one

Here's mine, he's a Jack-in-a-Fox since it seems to be trendy to name your crossbreed a silly name, he sheds like a bastard and is constantly covered in burs, sand and shrubbery, he needs combing out after every walk, he's a pain in the arse.

toboldlygo Thu 11-Oct-12 15:02:44

So if ethical breeders don't breed for money, and do it to improve the breed/work/show, where is everyone getting all these pedigree dogs?

Both of my pedigree dogs are rescues. The breed-specific welfare group that dog #2 came from is overrun. Unethical breeders are buying them up on Gumtree, Preloved, FB etc. and churning out more for £££. People buying dogs from unscrupulous breeders are fuelling the trade.

I do just have to say in the interests of honesty and accuracy that all the goldendoodles I know (many) look EXACTLY alike and none of them shed. It may just be astonishing coincidence, but it is true.

I only know one goldendoodle and he already has that upright shuffly gait in his rear legs that I associate with so many lame, dysplastic goldies. sad His owners bought him specifically because they'd had goldies with hip dysplasia in the past and were told the cross 'cancelled it out'. Total conjecture, of course, I don't have x-ray eyes but I would put money on it. He does also shed though apparently a lot less than a goldie.

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Oct-12 15:09:33

A lot of pedigree dogs are from unethical breeders, but in amongst them are a few good ones, the problem with crosses like labradoodles is that the few good ones don't have any reason to be breeding them...there may well be some out there trying to establish a new breed, but most of them seem to be doing it for money.

Poodles, labs and golden retrievers all suffer from hip dysplasia, so unfortunately they suffer just as much when you cross them.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 15:16:17

He's so sweet dooin! I love him lying on the kids like that.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 15:17:18

toboldly, none of th eones I know have hip problems, or should that be "yet"? Mine is 6.5 and still charging aroud like a puppy.

midori1999 Thu 11-Oct-12 15:28:50

Hully over 90% of KC registrations are from 'volume breeders' or puppy farmers to you and I. That's a huge proportion of pedigree dogs.

As for hip problems... I dont know one single Golden Retriever with hip problems. I know a lot of Goldens. However, I don't disbelieve that there are hip problems within the breed. Of the poodle crosses that have been x rayed, scores show there is nothing to be complacent about.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 15:49:49

Doin, your 'Jack in the Fox' is beautiful. What a lovely Mutt.

For those that want a Pedigree, but don't want to go to a breeder, there are plenty of Breed Specific Rescues about.

We are going to lose a dog soon. RottDog has cancer and hasn't got long left. She is irreplacable, but we know that it wont take long for us to want to fill that dog
shaped hole in our lives.

I have always liked Springers, and having been around my friend with his 3, I love them even more. My friend works all his 6 dogs, and all bar one have come from rescue. Of the Springs 2 were pups and 2 were under 2 years old.

(The one pup he did 'buy' is a Lab, his first and oldest dog. By the time she was 3 she couldn't work any longer - her hips are shot. I like Labs, but all the ones I know have hip problems)

We are looking weekly on The Cocker And English Springer Spaniel website CAESSR and the English Springer Spaniel Welfare website ESSW. There are rescues for all manner of breeds of dogs Mutts and Pedigrees - you just have to look for them.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 15:54:50

That was picture was taken around the same time he was banned from the sofa and furniture owing to being possessive over it, the kids became his new sofa, needs must and all that grin

He is sweet now, he used to be a bastard. He gets a lot more off lead work now he has finally, finally gotten recall, unfortunately this means he needs a lot more combing. He has a grass allergy so leaving him covered in grass seeds is not good for him.

How anyone has the time to keep a Doodle looking neat is beyond me. Mine is 1 third the size of Doodle and keeping him shrubbery free is a full time job grin

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 15:58:19

yes "neat" is not a word I'd use for mine...

She gets blasted with a full power hose after every walk and I keep her hair short too or she stinks because she never fully dries. Yum.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 16:01:45

I'd love an Otterhound, but they've always got that 'wet dog' smell about them. Curse of the long hair - Mutt and Rott are short haired thankfully.

Hullygully Thu 11-Oct-12 16:03:16

I had a Rotty, she was so lovely.

Rhinestone Thu 11-Oct-12 16:05:02

<applauds D0oin>

I'm sorry OP but I still don't understand why you're so against going to a rescue.

Very few people have actually read my OP and answered questions. The rest have made assumptions and judgements.

We have read your OP. You asked for recommendations of breeders and any advice. Plenty of us are advising you that there simply aren't any good, ethical breeders of Labradoodles.

But I sense this is pointless, you have your mind made up and you seem determined to buy a puppy that has been bred for £££ with no thought to the welfare of either breed, the thousands of rescue dogs who need a home or the bitch involved.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 16:09:27

There's one on the Many Tears website at the moment Hully - He's so handsome, but I just don't think I could IYSWIM sad

MrsWolowitz Thu 11-Oct-12 16:31:08

To say there are no reputable breeders is incorrect and silly.

Of course there are.

Ridiculous.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 16:36:18

Not of Labradoodles there aren't. Or Staffies, for that matter and I am sure shortly the same will be said of the northern breeds.

Ethically breeding a dog of those breeds who are increasingly used a fashion statement, and often end up in rescue because of this, is wrong.

Tell me, if there are ethical breeders of Labradoodles, what are they breeding for? Because breeding for financial gain is not ethical, imo, but yet there is no breed standard to work towards in the Labradoodle and it has nothing it can offer than a poodle or lab or retriever could not offer, so why, exactly, are they being bred, if not for money?

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 16:40:08

To say there are no reputable breeders is incorrect and silly

No it isn't. A reputable breeder does it for more than just money. Any 'Designer Dog' breeder is ONLY doing it for the money. There is no ideal 'breed standard' for the Labradoodle, because they aren't a recognised breed, they aren't working dogs, so there is no need to breed for working purposes.

midori1999 Thu 11-Oct-12 16:55:27

Perhaps someone can point out a 'reputable' breeder of Labradoodles then please, as I am really struggling to find one that a) doesn't appear to be exploiting their dogs for money, WTF is it with this 'guardian' scheme doodle breeders seem to employ confused or b) where there isn't some fault to be found with the 'breeder'. One of the apparently 'good' breeders on the link on the previous page doesn't even know the breed mean hip score for the breed FFS, unless they know something the BVA doesn't? Or unless 2012 figures suggest it has gone up, which would indeed be worrying...

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 17:16:31

i could link to several doodle/poodle/cavapoo breeders who are really puppy farmers that i wouldn't touch with a fifty foot bargepole

but MNHQ would probably send me to the naughty corner.

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 18:08:33

tbh I have seen absolutely no evidence of examples of "doghouses reputation.", which I assume you mean everyone in here is mean and nasty hmm

If there were reputable breeders of Doodles, you would have found one and not had to post here. People have answered your question and linked to charities that can give you advice.

I strongly agree with Hully, "all pet keeping is ridiculous", that's too bloody true!

and

Hully, your namesake is svelte and lean, and will be kept that way. grin

<<hides HullyGullyPuppy currently observing pizza cooling on work top>>

UterusUterusGhali Thu 11-Oct-12 19:06:41

So there are no ethical breeders of any lap dogs? Because they serve no purpose. A chiuaua (sp?) breeder is no better than a pit bull breeder.( Ethically if not legally. )

I do think breed standards are a ludicrous idea, but if only responsible owners bred dogs for working, most breeds would dissapear. Would the world miss the Puli?

I'm not saying puppy farms should exist at all, but kinda musing.

UterusUterusGhali Thu 11-Oct-12 19:07:49

Oh, and my Staffie hardly moults at all. grin
<<smug>>

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 19:13:11

staffys shouldn't be bred because though they are great dogs, rescue is full of them and they seem to be bought by knobbers.

UterusUterusGhali Thu 11-Oct-12 19:16:47

It would be interesting to knowhow long it would take to "use up" all of the dogs in rescue, if everyone rehomed them rather than buying puppies.

bobbybearmummy Thu 11-Oct-12 19:17:13

If I let the hair grow on my poodle he would look just like a curly coated labradoodle,minus the shedding,smell and labrador appetite!!
I cannot understand the demand for labradoodles...is it the latest fashion,as with many of these poodle crossbreeds?.
When you cross 2 breeds,you will never have a breed type in a litter..there will be wide range of coat types, quite often double the health problems and also sometimes training issues.My friend is a dog trainer and she sees more "labradoodles" with behaviour problems than any other breed.
The poodle and labrador are a long established breed,fantastic dogs in their own right,why on earth would you want to cross them.

bobbybearmummy Thu 11-Oct-12 19:22:03

And I would not advise running with a doodle as they are prone to elbow and hip dysplasia

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 19:28:21

There is I think a place outside simply working, for breeds of dogs. Whether we like it or not dogs are a life style choice, so to an extent you need somedog that will fit in. What they are not is an accessory. They can't make you look good, or tough. They don't say anything about you by how they look.

A proper understanding and research of a breed means you would know you have no guarentees with a cross breed of what traits will get. Whether rescue or not you are taking on a crossbreed with a "hey, we'll take a punt and see what comes attitude".

If you aren't sure what you want from your dog, or exactly what you want to do with your dog, and instead have a few vague ideals you'd quite like to achieve than you are better off going to a rescue, where they know the dgs better as individuals and stand more chance of providing what you want.

Op on paper, you are ideal to take on a crossbreed, you've had many types of dog from different backgrounds.

if you'd poster the woman down the roads ended up with Poodle/lab crosses, what do you think any experience? people would have said go for it.

asking for a reputable breeder of crossbreeds however is a complete oxymoren to DogLovers and rescuers. And I wouldn't have expected any other response tbh.

lisad123 Thu 11-Oct-12 19:29:01

Haven't read whole thread blush
We have a labradoodle, in fact I have one from same litter as personalclown and misdee. I have needed up with a long haired wavey coat dog whom gets mistaken for all sorts of breeds.
He doesn't moult much and now he is over two is pretty lazy smile
Crazy if visitors come or he sees another dog. He is lovely and a great family dog. I would never recommend them as a first dog to anyone unless they are used to big bouncy dogs. He was easy enough to train but still have "things" he will run off to no matter how yummy my treats.
He has had two hair cuts in his life and does not smell unless wet.

tazzle22 Thu 11-Oct-12 20:26:27

well I guess we have to blame the people wanting to breed a guide dog for a blind lady allergic to dogs for all this ballyhoo lol ..... that was the first time I ever heard of a labradoodle. I would proabably hazard a guess that the man who bred the first known deliberate mating for the guide dog association did it because of observtions of accidental matings producing dogs less likely to cause an allergic reaction ..... or carefully evaluating the possible outcomes.

Of course like anything portrayed so positively there will be some that just want to emulate this "wonder" as well as those who want to make money out of the "breed"........... and just like mr parsons there was indeed a reason for the origional breeder to look at this "design".

I do not think it is a straight forward as all pedigree breeders being angels and all so called designer breeders being the spawn of the devil. I think that sooo many breeds have such terrible health problems that are NOT being sorted out by the showers / breeders ( there are less problems in the working strains of many breeds) that one cannot say that pedigree breeders are any better in that respect that some "other" breeders. It it just not that straight forward.

At present my two current rescue dogs are one pedigree ( gsd) and one (accidental) "designer" sprollie ........... the gsd at 8 does not have hip dysplasia as such but is a bit arthritic, the sprollie is currently recuperating from surgery for a torn cruciate ligament ...... susceptibility coming from the spaniel side I am given to understand !

Having been involved in rescue work with horses as well as dogs ( and little furries)........... my personal feeling is that I dont like indiscrimate breeding of ANY persuasion. I dont think anyone should breed from any animal unless prepared to be responsible for it for life......... that means taking it back if need be rather than there being the need for soooo many animal rescues !!!!!!!!!

Sorry OP that was not aimed at you and sorry not replied directly ...... guess what I am saying is that I do not think there is inherently anything wrong with producing non pedigree dogs as long as the breeder knows there are homes for the pups and is prepared if need be to take back or rehome where required ! You sound like you would keep the dog even if, for example, the coat was not as "prescribed" and that you would be responsible for the dog for life ..... if only all potential dog owners looked on it that way we would not be in the position we are now. Good luck.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 20:28:38

I am posting, then leaving this ridiculous thread.
If anyone believes that 'doodles' or other CROSSBREEDS are more expensive than pure breds, they're wrong. Actually, within the next couple of years, the expectation is that the doodle-type dogs will become a breed standard, like in the USA. I don't really give a toss about this, as I love mutts, hounds and gentry dogs alike.
If anyone believes no 'doodles' can add to or otherwise enhance a breed, again, WRONG.
It is a well known fact that cross breeding can increase longevity and can alleviate breed-specific diseases or problems.
I cannot believe how ridiculous some posts have been on this thread. A whippet was once a cross breed. A cross between a terrier and a greyhound.
Some 'breed standards' allow dogs to suffer dreadfully. We all remember the expose of the Crufts standard for KCSs.
For whatever reason, sometimes people might want a puppy from the word go. In my case, after years and years of rescuing ex-racing greyhounds - which I ADORE and will rescue again - I needed a dog who would grow up with, cope with and accept babies and toddlers. Not fair at all on a grey, who have no other requirements than a warm sofa and place to rest quietly.
We live in a free country.
OP you've been publicly flogged here and I don't think it's fair.
Better off posting in Chat next time.
Goodbye.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 11-Oct-12 20:53:30

"It is a well known fact that cross breeding can increase longevity and can alleviate breed-specific diseases or problems"

pile of shite actually.

how cross breeding a long lived breed like poodles (toys and miniatures get to 17 years, standards maybe 12 - more for a smaller standard, less for a giant) to another breed with the same lifespan (labs typically get 10-12) is going to increase longevity, i don't know

crossing them to another breed that also gets HD isn't going to help either.

cross breeding programmes that include crossing back to poodle (for F2, F3, multigen) don't stop problems like Sebaceous adenitis - especially using dogs that are known to be affected, or related to affected dogs... because the breeders are breeding for money, they don't care about the health problems that won't show until the puppy is older.

health testing is the only way to reduce the likelihood of health problems, and careful, considered breeding.

midori1999 Thu 11-Oct-12 20:56:43

Chocolate, I agree with Edgar and there is so much wrong with what you have posted I don't really even know where to start. However, anyone who believes what that programme, which was actually factually incorrect on more than several things, so much so it had to be altered for further showings, does not know about dogs and is someone I can't take too seriously. Not least as it seems you can't even enter a discussion about it... hmm

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:00:50

Are you a vet, Edgar? Only my very experienced, talented, life-saving (several times) vet - whom I trust and believe - would beg to differ about increasing longevity.
Surely common sense tells you that cross breeding two breeds with potential for HD won't alleviate HD. I'm not a bloody moron.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 21:08:44

But both the lab and the poodle have the potential for HD, so why is your point relevent to this thread?

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:10:27

there is so much wrong with what you have posted I don't really know where to start
Enlighten me.
Genuinely - I am a kind and caring mother of two. Im a primary school teacher. I've spent a lot of my life rescuing greyhounds who are either elderly or with special needs and severe health problems. I don't think I 'know it all' by any means but I cannot for the life of me see why the OP has been continually attacked all day!
And it is extremely rude and presumptuous of you to state that cross^I don't know about dogs^ when a) I've grown up with them all my life and b) I've nursed dogs through cancer, auto-immune disease, anxiety, pelvic problems and dementia. You are very rude. I would not pass judgement on you as a person by reading several lines of text.

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 21:13:53

Where has the op been attacked? confused
I suggest you report attacks as Hq will delete them.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:16:30

Dooin I don't own a labradoodle. I don't know about labs. I offered some advice about owning a Cockapoo. I find people so crass and rude on this thread. Really - is it just full of holier-than-thou perfect people?? I wouldn't speak so rudely to people in rl and as a new member of MN I must admit it's been a bit of an education, really. It's ok to have an opinion... as long as it's the same as the majority. What a shame.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:18:32

HoneyDragon are you kidding me?!!!!!!!? I wouldn't be surprised if she was hiding under her duvet, crying.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 21:25:16

Seriously, show one post in which the OP has been attacked?

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:32:29

Perhaps I am being somewhat naive here. OP was told, quite unkindly and repeatedly, she is part of a massive problem of breeding without care or standards, and is as bad as a ruthless breeder. OP hasn't even got herself a little pup yet. She was merely asking for advice before rushing in. If only everyone who bought a puppy did the same! It's a shame really as in future people might be put off from asking for advice on this thread when I'm sure there are some very knowledgable people on it.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 21:36:07

Tazzle, you might be interested to read that the 'designer' of the first Labradoodle actually regrets it. Wally Conron accepts that he started the ..oodle craze and got out of the 'business' as soon as he could. Whilst he did it for a good reason, it soon grew out of control.

Chocolate, the people posting here have far more experience of dogs than you. Far more experience of rescue and far more experience of breeding and behaviour. I wouldn't presume to tell you how to teach primary school children, I would expect your training and experience would speak for itself, please afford the people on this thread the same courtesy.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 21:40:38

No, she wasn't Chocolate, she was told she would become part of the problem if she went ahead and bought a Doodle anyway in the face of the reasons she has been given against it, very valid reasons, given by very experienced posters.

I would say exactly the same to someone who wanted to buy a pedigree puppy from a BYB or puppy farmer. It's the breeders and their reasons for breeding that is the issue, not the breed itself. There is no reason to breed Doodles other than for financial gain, which most people find abhorrent given the amount of dogs that are killed each year for lack of a good home. Buying creates demand, which fuels supply. If people stopped buying these dogs tomorrow, people would stop breeding them. They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 21:41:40

She has had excellent advice from owners, very honest advice.

She has had advice on common feelings about breeders and their motivations.

Which she can use how she sees fit.

Dog breeding has always been a huge bone wink of contention amongst doggy people. Many people are very passionate about their point of view.

The op believes she will find a good and legitimate breeder. The conversation moves on.

But as I said if you have seen PA than report it.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:41:49

Thank you for putting me firmly in my place. Again.

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 21:44:29

<<holds hand up>>
I'm not one of the experienced people
I'm one of the people who shamelessly steal their knowledge and experience grin
But I'm quite nice and would call it if I thought people were being dicks.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 21:52:36

grin

So was I a few years ago, now I have too many pets and not enough time to do all the volunteering I want to do. DH is convinced that in 2 years time we'll be running a rescue!

(we won't - what he doesn't know is that as soon as I think DD is old enough to cope we will be taking on the 'end of life' dogs - those that are too old for rehoming. I am waiting to see how DD copes with RottDogs death first)

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:53:25

Actually I have no doubt that, as dog lovers, you're all quite nice! I am sorry to have offended anyone in my defence of OP. In reality, if it interests anyone at all, I volunteer for a greyhound charity. I home check for them and - even on shitty wet days - rattle a tin outside supermarkets. I donate tins of food each week to the RSPCA. I have spent thousands of pounds of borrowed cash on my poorly dogs and slept on a wooden cold floor next to their beds when they've been too ill to climb the stairs.
It isn't fair for somebody to presume I know nothing about dogs.
Dogs have been a big part of my life, all my life.
Again, sorry to anyone who has been annoyed by my personal remarks.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 21:56:24

LtEveDallas I have taken on such dogs and it has been exceptionally rewarding. I thoroughly recommend it.

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 22:01:11

chocolate

Be warned. You will find yourself getting annoyed at some dog owners on here then. sad

<<We'll still love you though>>

I still wince when people post on dog biting threads what treatment they thnk is acceptable for a dog to endure without reacting. And I'm not perfect, I lost count of the times I or the dc have trod on the bloody puppy!

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Oct-12 22:02:36

As I said before - there are far far too many bad breeders of pedigree dogs too and I'm sure there are some people somewhere breeding labradoodles to create a breed removed from the origin breeds, but they're going to be few and far between because unlike pedigrees they can't show them and there isn't an agreed type, there's no job that they can do that either of the origin breeds couldn't do just as well.

Breeding properly costs money, at best a good breeder breaks even but they do it to get a dog to show or work...labradoodle breeders can't show them so they'd be losing money just to get a dog they can't do anything with.

I'm sure somebody somewhere is doing it as an expensive hobby, but looking at websites I see people doing it for money because they're popular, just the same as certain pedigree breeds.

The difference is that if you look hard enough you'll find a responsible pedigree breeder, I've yet to find a labradoodle one.

tazzle22 Thu 11-Oct-12 22:03:18

thanks dallas .. yes I guessed he would have ... but his intentions were valid and some of them worked even if it all did run away.

The same could probably be said though of almost any desired outcome in breeding any animal .... , there are always some that "dont work" an genetics is not an exact science lol

My point is that neither do a lot of pedigrees.... they just "dont work" properly .... from so called minor conditions like entropion onwards. Proper pedigree breeding is most definately not a guarantee of a healthier dog than a cross breed. While some will actively try to breed out certain anomolies some have become part of, or difficult to seperate form, the "breed standard".

Its almost the same in the horse world ... and maybe other species ???? If money or prestige is involved for some ethics comes second !

partystress Thu 11-Oct-12 22:03:41

Goldendoodle owner. 6yo. Been really hard work, but she is now a lovely dog. Always been lovely natured, but was a bolter, leaper and over-enthusiastic licker. No shedding for first 4 years, now leaves drifts everywhere. Has to go to poodle parlour regularly as her coat matts, ears and between claws need more skilled sorting than I can manage.

However, the point I wanted to make was that getting a rescue dog is not as easy as has been suggested in some posts. Our first two dogs were rescues - a mongrel followed by a GSD. When we tried to get a rescue once we had small children, we hit a dead end. 5 different homes and centres had nothing suitable for families with children under 10. In all cases, the wait list for puppies was closed. Hearing dog rejects was also a closed wait list. We therefore reluctantly decided we would have to buy a puppy from a breeder. I was concerned about potential genetic faults in pure bred dogs, have an asthmatic DH and so decided to go for a poodle cross. Was our breeder in it for the money? Almost certainly. Are we part of a problem? Possibly. But at the time, it was no dog or a pup from a breeder.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 22:09:34

I'd love to offer a home to an end of life dog but unfortunately my house is too noisy and chaotic and my existing dogs too young and boisterous, so I will have to content myself with my failed racers and lurchers for now.

We thought we'd found another lurcher today on our walk. It was very dark, and a very short, brindle lurcher ran up to us and started waiting for a treat. The only small lurcher we own is black. We had to have an argument about who was going to take it home for the night. I was told it would have to be me and if I refused I'd not be allowed a lift home and would be left to walk 5 miles in the rain, with four dogs and only two leads because the new dog would follow me home anyhow hmm, after drawing the short straw and agreeing to take home our new friend, he stepped out of the ditch he'd been standing in and we realised he was our very tall dog anyway blush grin, it was very dark.

But it has now been agreed that any strays we find come home with me and we will find more eventually, given the location of our walks seems to be the local dumping ground for unwanted dogs, hopefully the next one will be a staffy and then I will keep him

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 22:10:37

I kind of get the impression that Doodles are enthusiastic over clever Labradors with grooming issues from hell from threads like this grin

Hey I'm part of a problem too - all my own dogs have been Labs.

Well I think the one next to be is half donkey hmm

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 22:11:51

Dooin! grin

MinkSlink Thu 11-Oct-12 22:13:51

Hi OP We have a labradoodle, he is just fantastic.

We chose a labradoodle because we wanted a large low shedding dog which would be fairly easy to train and good with our kids. Our friend who's a vet advised us not to get a pure bred dog because of the genetic health problems they can be prone to, he has always had cross breeds.

He does shed, is very bouncy and also very big. Please bear these things in mind! You really never know what you are getting looks wise or shedding wise unless you get an Australian labradoodle and they are really expensive, around £2000 I think.

Standard poodles are great dogs too by the way smile

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 22:18:39

My last end-of-life dog, beautiful Bonnie, riddled with cancer of the spine, was the feistiest and most cunning dog I've ever owned grin
She instigated utter mayhem amongst my other greys at meal times!
We loved her so much.
She became incontinent and I had to buy a Bissell carpet cleaner. Hence not such a great idea with kids.
But we did all we could for her, and in return, she made us so happy. she was an honorary bridesmaid when we got married, and died two months later

The main problem seem to be getting a puppy from a good breeder.

If all cross breeders are possibly dodgy and a considerable proportion of pedigree inc KC reg dodgy, it's so hard to tell.

I think dog breeding should be far more regulated, but honestly don't know that it is achievable. I also think there should be far more responsibility to both breeder and owner on ensuring the long term well being of a dog.

Not much use to Op, sorry, can see how topic brings up such strong emotions though.

D0oinMeCleanin Thu 11-Oct-12 22:24:40

I have laminate flooring and pleather furniture and cheap throw away rugs, small enough and cheap enough to shove in the washer solely for the convenience of toileting accidents with pets, incontinence would not bother me. I decorated this house with my epileptic terrier in mind who would become incontinent during and immediately after a fit, unfortunately she passed away just before we moved in sad

It's the constant comings and goings, noise, children wailing and screeching and my other two permanent dogs that prevent me from taking in elderly dogs. This house would not be a suitable place for a dog who needed a quiet, relaxing home. It's like the local drop in center for feral children most days.

tazzle22 Thu 11-Oct-12 22:27:08

end of life dogs can often be so rewarding .... we took on a poodle after owner died that had been a lap dog fed soft food all her life. Fixed her teeth best we could and gave her a dogs life getting down and dirty in the fields lol Such a great feeling seeing her romping around with a new lease of life.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 22:33:38

That's what I'm hoping. I hate the thought of elderly dogs dying in kennels when they should be sleeping in a comfy bed and just not waking up.

DD is only 7 now, so I'm thinking another couple of years yet. She cries for half an hour when we lose a fish, and we had to lie to her about the hamsters, so God knows how she is going to react if Rott goes this week sad. If she copes well I may bring the idea forward.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 22:34:54

Dooin sounds a bit like my house now grin Hence no elderly or poorly rescue greys these days.
One day though...
DH has promised me...
And yes, the incontinence is just a small price to pay.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 22:38:40

Lt you may be surprised. DS (5) took the unexpected death of his GPs greyhound recently far better than we expected. He drew him a picture and wrote how much he loved him. Most days he mentions how he is happy in heaven. Kids are stronger than we think.

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 22:45:47

Chocolate, I'm sorry if I was snippy earlier. I do stand by all I said to the OP, and I really don't think she was attacked by anyone, but I do get emotive about this subject and that can make me rude.

I see too many dogs in rescue dying for homes. Breeders making money out of designer dogs with cutsie names just adds to the problem. I'm sure you feel the same about your Greys.

Anyway, I hope your DH keeps his promise!

LtEveDallas Thu 11-Oct-12 22:51:04

Chocolate. DD is great but RottDogs illness has come as a shock to all of us. A month ago she was tearing round, being a loon and driving us all insane. Now she is dosed up on tramadol and fentanyl and has lost almost 3 Kilos in a week.

She's not in pain, but it's not a life and there is nothing more we can do. We will probably end her suffering soon - but even if we let her go naturally it will be before the end of the month.

2 months from start to finish. It has come as a shock - that's why I'm worried about DDs reaction.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 22:55:03

No hard feelings Lt. We're all dog lovers. And yes the tragedy is that there are sooo many unwanted dogs in rescue homes. I may have been a bit snipy myself... I felt OP was getting a hard time with no support. Anyhoooo... No matter what, I think OP is trying to make a careful judgement and will take the advice on board.

twooter Thu 11-Oct-12 22:58:07

I really don't think that the argument about there being no breed standard for labradoodles carries much weight. The majority of health problems in dogs are precisely because of the breed standards, and breeders aiming for external physical perfection whilst ignoring the internal problems.

chocolateistheenemy Thu 11-Oct-12 23:00:35

X post. I completely feel for you. I lost my beloved boy in the space of 4 hrs going from 'normal' to total organ failure (auto immune disease). The shock and sadness has never left me. I'm so sorry RottDog is so ill. Tramadol helps a lot but it is incredibly strong too so dulls all the senses (I think it's an opiate?). So agree it isn't a life for RottDog in the sense you knew it. Keep strong. x

tazzle22 Thu 11-Oct-12 23:20:23

so sorry about rottdog ltdallas ..... its hard to see them so ill and trying to decide whether to help mother nature along :-(. It is never easy when our beloved animals are facing such illness .... and of course when children are involved too it gets even harder.

hugs to you and your family ( no matter how many legs they have)

HoneyDragon Thu 11-Oct-12 23:28:15

sad didn't know about Rottdog

LtEveDallas Fri 12-Oct-12 06:17:15

Thanks guys. She had a bad day yesterday, barely moved off the chair and was panting and drooling most of the day. MuttDog seems to be sensing it, so is subdued (She is very much DDs dog) which makes it all worse.

Going to take her for a final fling in the river today - she loves swimming - and then see what tomorrow brings.

overthemill Fri 12-Oct-12 07:27:33

i'm totally confused by the vitriol against dog breeders shown on this thread. Many breeders make no profit on the litters they produce . I know this for a fact because my sister breeds (golden retrievers) and she takes time off work, pays for vet fees and provides vaccinations check ups and insurance for her litters. She charges enough to cover the vet fees basically. she breeds because she loves her preferred breed and wants to produce lovely dogs.

I do not approve of puppy farming which is a whole different thing but why not have a go at idiots who do not neuter their dogs and produce unplanned litters all over the place? Some breeders are responsible. They do not have liter after litter. But I would always go via a breed organisation to find a responsible breeder for any breed. Or go to the rescue organisation for that breed.

We have one, she is fab but sheds like crazy!

AgathaFusty Fri 12-Oct-12 07:43:43

LtEve I hope you have a nice day with your Rott in the river. It's a horrible time when you know you are losing a pet. All you can do is remember that Rott had a good life with you.
x

LtEve so sorry to hear about your lovely dog.
I hope you have a lovely day with him.

midori1999 Fri 12-Oct-12 07:57:40

Overthemill, there is no vitriol aimed towards dog breeders on this thread. Or not decent ones at least, I like to think I am one of those. However, if your sister is a reputable breeder of Goldens, which, going by what you have said, she is, then I suspect she feels the same way as most people on this thread, both about the deliberate breeding of crossbreeds and also unscrupulous breeders.

If there were enough homes for all dogs and thousands upon thousands weren't being killed every day due to lack of homes, if none were being killed, then there wouldn't be a problem with people carefully breeding whatever dog they wanted, provided welfare standards were met, health testing done etc. I would still feel there are ethical issues involved in breeding for money though, because it's only natural when breeding to make money that costs must be considered and that does lead to welfare problems and cutting corners.

However, as things stand there are thousands of dogs being killed every day and so anyone breeding should have a legitimate reason for doing so. As I see it, the only good reason for breeding the way things currently are is to preserve and improve the breeds we already have and even that should be done with utmost care and thought.

midori1999 Fri 12-Oct-12 08:03:05

Interestingly, the Northern Inuit started out in a fairly similar way to the Labradoodle in that people bred crosses to 'create a breed'. Except, like with all these things, idiots jumped on the bandwagon, when they were popular a lot of people bred them for money and the 'breed' was ruined to a huge extent and due to mistakes made it will never be recognised by the KC.

Unlike the labradoodle though, at least the Northern Inuuit has a proper 'breed' club (or clubs grin ) and they do hold 'breed' shows too.

overthemill Fri 12-Oct-12 08:49:29

midori but so does the labradoodle. The Trust has shows and meets and so does the UK labradoodle association both trying to ensure responsible breeding and ownership.

seeker Fri 12-Oct-12 09:04:00

"The UK Labradoodle Association is a voluntary, informal, independent resource for anyone interested in Labradoodles in the UK. It provides information and listings for owners, prospective owners and for breeders. It is not run by breeders nor does it seek to dictate what is or is not best practice (though there is a published Code of Practice with which Breeders listed here must comply), rather to air the options in a constructive way and let you decide."

hmm

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 09:11:15

Isn't any breeder just adding to the problem of there being too many dogs? Why people who breed labradoodles in particular?

Surely (as someone said earlier) if you breed your dog as a responsible breeder so you can have one puppy, you are adding an extra 6 or so dogs to the world just so you can have a puppy? That sounds pretty irresponsible to me.

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 09:31:31

We initially planned on getting a rescue dog but we were told because we had children under 7 we wouldn't be allowed, also the majority of dogs were staffies and although I know they can be wonderful dogs, it's not a breed we wanted.

Just from a visit to dogs home, it really struck me that the most irresponsible breeders seem to be the ones that breed staffordshire bull terriers, and they are a pedigree dog.

midori1999 Fri 12-Oct-12 09:47:31

Overthemill, and yet it is really hard to find a responsible breeder or one whose ethics I would agree with via those sites. The following is an example of a stud dog advertised on one of them, willing to see bitches from 18 months, no mention of health testing being done for the bitches, in fact, no eye testing done apparently for the stud dog. Not a great start, is it?

www.labradoodlestud.co.uk/6.html

Minkslink, the point is, the labradoodle is a fad crossbreed, it is not a breed and it is unlikely to ever become a recognised breed for various reasons, in the same way the Northern Inuit never will. We already have established breeds in this country, ones that suit every possible thing a pet owner could ever want. The rescue situation is at crisis, so whilst it is important to preserve what we already have, we do not need to add to it.

As for Staffies, the majority bred are not even pedigree dogs, let alone resposibly bred. Most people don't even know what a 'proper' staff looks like anymore, there are so many badly bred ones out there. They are the only breed the KC has ever asked people to stop breeding. Aside from that, as mentioned earlier in the thread, 90% of KC registrations are from puppy farmers, they are irresponsibly bred. This is why breeds, particularly the most popular, such as Labs and Goldens are ending up with temprement problems. This is why people think chocolate labs are more 'springy' than yellow or black labs, not because the colour makes a difference, but because when they became popular, an awful lot were poorly bred.

lindsey077 Fri 12-Oct-12 09:55:00

We have a labradoodle, bought from a family who were lovely breeders. They still organise doodle walks for the pups three years on and they kept one little boy as he had an eye condition that they couldn't get assurance would get better.
They do vary in coat/size/temperament but I've not met one yet that is anything other than lovely. I think to have more chance of getting the type of dog you want you need to go for third/fourth generation and look at the family history.
We got one as I had a lab growing up but am allergic, I spent time with a couple of doodles and have no adverse effects so we went ahead and bought one. I was fully aware that I might have been allergic to our particular doodle but had already decided that if I was I'd just live with the allergies.
However! She is really big when not clipped, taking up a lot more room than we expected. She moults, if you don't sweep for a couple of days you get furballs drifting along the wooden floor. You need to be committed to grooming, especially in wet weather as they do mat. Unless clipped her beard is always manky and damp. She is intolerant to gluten and is expensive to feed. She is BOUNCY! She has not ever gotten over her complete excitement around visitors and occasionally wees on their feet. She is boisterous and loves to play, not all dogs feel the same way. She is like a sponge and brings home a lot of mud after being walked, and takes ages to dry. She's quite needy and will cry if you're not with her, like if I'm outside doing something and have asked her to stay inside she will sit and cry. She took a long time to housetrain.
Despite this we all love her and she has so many brilliant points - she is amazing with the children, she loves them to pieces and I trust her with them completely. She doesn't set off my allergies. She is a brilliant guard dog. When it's just our family at home she's really chilled out and content just to be with us. She can walk or run for hours but if it's raining she's equally happy with a 10 minute walk down to the park and back, this doesn't make her bored or anxious to get out. Once trained not to do something she won't do it. She never goes upstairs or into the kitchen, never gets up on the furniture etc. I have no concerns about her with other dogs, there is not a snappy bone in her body, we have a guinea pig and if he's brought inside he will lay her head next to him, if they're out in the garden together she never chases him. She is lovely and soppy. She's doing well in gundog training and will be going out on a shoot this winter.
We wouldn't be without ours but I know there is a lot of anti crossbreeding feeling around, and I do understand this with there being an abundance of dogs needing homes, we wanted one we could train from a pup, that I was unlikely to be allergic to, we could train to retrieve on a shoot, and that was brilliant with children. She has fit this perfectly and I'd have no problems in recommending one to someone with experience of dogs.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 12-Oct-12 10:01:01

A poodle would also have fit that bill lindsey, this is the issue. There is no use for Doodles, every possible dog owning requirement is fulfilled by the breeds we already have.

Creating more breeds, for the sake of fashion, money etc. is adding to the problem with no reason to.

AgathaFusty Fri 12-Oct-12 10:53:52

I agree with D0oin - standard poodles are retrieving dogs, water retrievers which is where the daft haircut comes from, historically. They are the dogs least likely to provoke a reaction in a person with allergies, they are exceptionally intelligent which makes training easy, although you do have to be firm and consistant. They make fantastic family dogs as they tend to bond with the whole family and not just become loyal to one family member as some breeds have a reputation for, for that reason they are generally good around children.

This is what I don't understand - when there is a dog that already meets the needs, why invent another?

twooter Fri 12-Oct-12 11:17:20

Well, as an example, I don't like poodles, I think Labradors are ok. I really like labradoodles. Yes, people should get labradoodles where the parents have been screened, but I don't see why breeding labradoodles = bad and breeding poodles = good.

EdgarAllanPond Fri 12-Oct-12 11:20:27

"I don't see why breeding labradoodles = bad and breeding poodles = good."

who said poodle breeding was good? the huge majority isn't.

and if you don't like poodles, but like a dog that is often mistaken for them, that sort of points to your dislike as a matter of prejudice rather than substance.

misdee Fri 12-Oct-12 11:22:01

if you dont like poodles, why get a labradoodle?

when ralph is in full coat he gets mistaken for a poodle.

EdgarAllanPond Fri 12-Oct-12 11:25:30

"The majority of health problems in dogs are precisely because of the breed standards, and breeders aiming for external physical perfection whilst ignoring the internal problems."

a good breed standard should promote the breeding of healthy, well made dogs. you may have a point with one or two breeds - not with poodles and labs or most others.

i would say the majority of health issues come from poor rearing and neglect in the home.

AgathaFusty Fri 12-Oct-12 11:25:50

My Standard Poodle is mistaken for a labradoodle on a daily basis - and has been for the almost 13 years of his life.

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 11:26:24

Well there is a use for labradoodles, clearly, otherwise so many people wouldn't have them.

Standard poodles are relatively rare in a lot of places, there is not suddenly a huge abundance of unwanted standard poodle puppies that need homes now some people would prefer a labradoodle.

It is also relatively rare to find a labradoodle in a rescue centre, whereas they are plenty of pedigree dogs.

Some people would rather have a cross breed as they have less inherited genetic health problems and are cheaper to insure.

AgathaFusty Fri 12-Oct-12 11:26:43

twooter what is it about poodles that you don't like? I'm not trying to challenge you, by the way, just genuinely curious.

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 11:30:19

Also early generation labradoodles, which you find in the UK, tend to need a lot less clipping and grooming than a poodle which is why a lot of people would rather have a labradoodle.

AgathaFusty Fri 12-Oct-12 11:34:43

Not sure if that is true MinkSlink. Our standard is brushed every 2 or 3 days, and I clip him to an inch all over (including face) every 6-7 weeks, which takes around an hour and a half. I don't think labradoodles, whether shedding or not, are much lower maintenance. In fact, some owners I have spoken to have said that theirs are quite high maintenance because they shed, so need very regular brushing to remove the loose hair and regular vacuuming to clear the shed hair up, plus they need clipping regularly to as the hair grows as well.

midori1999 Fri 12-Oct-12 11:37:28

It's not rare to find a labradoodle in a rescue centre at all, neither are they 'full of' pedigree dogs and certainly not well bred ones. . hmm

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 12-Oct-12 11:54:46

Labradoodles are not healthier than well bred poodles or labs, at all. That is a complete misconception.

Crosses of any breeds can inherit problems from either parent, if breeding is not done correctly. Cross breeds being healthier is a complete myth. Maybe it is true of good old heinz 57 bit of everything mongrel, but not of a cross of two pedigree dogs, not at all.

It's also not true they are not ending up in rescues

They are easy to find in rescues

Most rescues have at least one

See?

Of course there are pedigrees in rescues, but as had already been pointed out most pedigree dog breeders are irresponsible also, the difference is you can find a reputable breeder of Labs, Standard Poodles, Retrievers etc. if you look hard enough and are prepared to wait, the same cannot be said for Labradoodles.

Pedigrees from reputable breeders will rarely be found in rescue centers in part because the breeder ensures they are going to the right home and in part because the breeder insists on taking the dog back at any point during it's life if the home fails for any reason.

elastamum Fri 12-Oct-12 11:57:57

If you look online at dogs for rehoming you wont find many labradoodles. That said, one of mine was rehomed to me from my (obviously irresponsible) breeder, having been returned to them. They called round their experienced labradoodle homes to find the right home for her.

On the subject of rescue dogs, neither I nor my 2 neighbours are considered suitable rescue homes as we are very rural (up a track) and our properties are not securely fenced so our dogs wander between the houses. We have five dogs between us, several acres of fields and 200 acres of woodland in which to walk, but in the judgment of the rescues are not considered acceptable owners because of we dont have a nice high garden fence. hmm

Hullygully Fri 12-Oct-12 11:59:20

<wants Womble>

LtEveDallas Fri 12-Oct-12 12:05:29

It is also relatively rare to find a labradoodle in a rescue centre, whereas they are plenty of pedigree dogs

Sorry Mink, that's not true any more - there are an awful lot of doodles in Rescue - mainly those that have been dumped thanks to unscrupulous breeders 'guaranteeing' allergy and shedding free, then refusing to take them back when they aren't.

The other issue is that the doodles people 'want' are of the cute curly type - lots turn out to be wire haired, and again they are dumped.

Oh and something you said further up about wanting a Rescue Dog but not being able to as your DC were under 7 - DD was a newborn when we got Rescue #1, 4 when we got Rescue #2 and 5 when we got Rescue ~#3

Rescue 1 came from Dogs Trust
Rescue 2 from Many Tears
Rescue 3 from a local independant Rescue

It really does depend on the rescue, you should shop around smile

LtEveDallas Fri 12-Oct-12 12:10:18

I want Rhubarb

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 12-Oct-12 12:11:23

Loads on Preloved too sad

When will people learn? <sigh>

twooter Fri 12-Oct-12 12:19:26

Out of interest, with the increase in deliberate crossbreeds, do you not feel that more people are looking at non pedigrees as potential pets, where they may have previously just looked at pedigrees?

( from fear of flaming should say that all my dogs have been true mongrels, all from rescue centres.)

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 12:24:35

We looked for a while for pre loved/rescue labradoodles but couldn't find any, literally. Maybe it was because we're in the South West? This was about 6 months ago.

Do you think that the people who have given up their labradoodles wouldn't have given up their labs or poodles though?

Wrt to the under 7 rule, all of my dogs came from rescues and I had 3 under 5 when we rescued Big Dog.
I also foster dogs and have been doing so since my DCs were small.

There are plenty of this breed in rescues and stuck on "preloved" which is quite frankly the most horrible site I've ever seen and never fails to amaze me why people think this is an appropriate way to sell a dog.

And this is in part due to people who buy from BYB who do not perform any type of home check to see if the dog is suited to the home.
When people then realise the dog is in fact not what they expected, there is no chance in hell that the breeder will take back the dog, or try to help, or rehome.

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 12:29:26

D0oinMeCleanin - I can see three adverts for labradoodle re homing on pre loved, not loads. There are also adverts for labradors. There are also lots of adverts for people wanting labradoodles/cross breeds.

LtEveDallas Fri 12-Oct-12 12:30:39

Hey Mink, I don't know your circumstances now, but larger rescues (like Many Tears for example) have dogs all over the country, and will do their best to transport a dog closer whenever they can. MuttDog was originally in Wales, was moved to Warminster and came to me in Oxfordshire. If you are still looking you shouldn't discount a dog that is further away.

I honestly think that people who purposely choose a labradoodle, to the exclusion of all other dogs, are more likely to give them up when they don't turn out how they imagined, yes.

I think people who purposely choose a lab or poodle do so knowing what they are like (as much as anyone can) so are less likely to give them up.

Also Labs and Poodles can be used as working dogs, so can be bred for a 'purpose' rather than a look - unlike doodles.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 12-Oct-12 12:31:56

Of course they would Mink, but had they sourced a reputable breeder like OP claims she wants to do, they either would not have been sold a puppy anyway, due to being obviously unsuitable or the breeder would have taken the dog back and used their own rescue contacts to rehome the dog or failing that they would have kept it themselves.

I am against all irresponsible breeding, not just Labradoodles. And please, please, please, do not buy a puppy or "rescue" dog from Preloved. I linked that to show that irresponsible breeding of poodle crosses does lead to many dogs being sold on or dumped in rescues because they are sold to unsuitable homes. Preloved is the puppy farmers dream. As is Gumtree, Facebook and other 'free ads' sites. If you want a reputable breeder you need to research your chosen breed and join your local breed club.

If you want a rescue dog use a reputable rescue, with a no-kill policy who guarantee to take the dog back at any point if the home fails.

tabulahrasa Fri 12-Oct-12 12:33:38

People give up all sorts of dogs, but when something is fashionable it attracts people who really shouldn't have a dog as well as the decent ones.

MinkSlink Fri 12-Oct-12 12:39:19

LtEveDallas & Dooin - I absolutely love my dog (labradoodle) unconditionally but yes owning him has opened my eyes to a lot of unscrupulous breeding, and not just cross breeds, although yes mainly. It's a hard one because labradoodles are wonderful pets and most people want one as they have young children, not as a fashion accessory. We (as I imagine other families are too) were put off having a rescue dog as we've never owned a dog before and would be unsure how to deal with behavioural problems it may have developed from ill treatment, but mainly because our local rescue won't let you have a dog if you have children under 7.

I met a woman while out with our dog teh other day and she told me that in Wales and Ireland dogs are put down if not rehomed within 7 days, this was a real eye opener. Our next dog will be a rescue dog.

overthemill Fri 12-Oct-12 12:39:59

i've had labradoodles for around 12 years - is that a trend I'm following?

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 12-Oct-12 12:45:28

Twooter, yes, I do think that people who would previously have only looked at pedigrees are now considering cross breeds, but this is not a good thing. It is enabling bybs and puppy farmers to breed cheap cross breeds and sell them on for £££. The demand for cross breeds with silly names is rising, therefore the supply and price is also rising. The people willing to buy from these 'breeders' would have bought a pedigree from dubious sources to begin with, so the demand for cross breeds increasing is not a good thing. It just means that more people are jumping on the bandwagon and exploiting their dogs.

20 years ago a Labradoodle would have been free to good home or £50 at most and would have been a LabX, PoodleX or mongrel. Now people can make money from them.

Breeding cross breeds is arguably less daunting 1) because people believe the hybrid vigour myth and think their "breed" will be healthier and require less or no health screening prior to breeding and 2) they can pair their bitch with almost anything and give it a silly name and make a fortune. Got a mini poodle? Great find a friend with a dog of any breed, give it an -oodle sounding name and you've yourself a money making machine. You don't even have to find the right stud breed now, anything will do.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 12-Oct-12 12:47:50

The 7 day rule applies in the UK too. In Ireland it's only 5 days.

Loads of puppies and issue free older dogs from good family home end up in rescue. loads of rescue rehome to families with small children MTAR and DogsTrust being two of the bigger ones who will consider families with small children.

HoneyDragon Fri 12-Oct-12 13:37:07

My current Lab is a great example of bad breeding. She was from a litter of only four. I am extraordinarily lucky so far that no health problems were becoming apparant. But having researched a bit it is obvious she was only bred to look pretty. As was her Mum.

We handed our cash over knowing it would not be seen again, even if we had to return the dog. The agreement the woman made for surrendering her dog was she got the money to cover her stud fee. Pay the owner of the stud as she was no longer able to give the owners a puppy and her vets bills. My dogs Mum had been used as a cash cow sad

She is in a good home now. And so is her little.

This woman was breeding for love she was breeding for money, but previous litters on preloved and the like had sold for £950 per dog. She apparently boasted that the more you charge the more people want them. hmm

HoneyDragon Fri 12-Oct-12 13:37:35

Not breeding for love, sorry.

bobbybearmummy Fri 12-Oct-12 16:20:18

You can buy a well bred poodle from a responsible breeder(yes they do exist) with health tested parents for a cheaper price than many of these doodles.A good breeder does not breed for money,but to improve the breed line.Thats the difference.Its about improving the breed type,whether for showing or working,to produce sound,healthy dogs,with good confirmation,and tempermant.An awful lot of thought, planning and expense goes into it.Its so far removed from sticking two dogs together ,to produce the latest "fashion"...so why would you want to buy into that when there are so many rescue dogs needing homes.

tazzle22 Sun 14-Oct-12 18:30:27

I remeber being shocked when some one I knew had an "accident" with their labrador bitch... she had been intended for a pedigree mating but a collie got in the window and did the deed first....

the result offpsring were given a "name" and woman asked for £300 each for the pups shock ..... no medical checks on dad of course ggggrrrrrrr

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Oct-12 16:36:58

I know the thread has moved on a lot since I posted about RottDog - but for those who may be interested, RottDog has survived the weekend smile.

She picked up really well after swimming, and is more 'sparky'. We are taking each day as it comes, and will let her go when the bad days outnumber the good sad. She has some new drugs, that seem to be helping (less pain and less off-her-head-ness) and has managed to try and eat MuttDog 3 times today - almost her old self grin

Thanks for all that asked and for your good wishes. thanks

AgathaFusty Mon 15-Oct-12 20:51:41

That's good to know LtEve

LtEveDallas Mon 15-Oct-12 21:17:13

Thanks Agatha smile

Oh I'm glad RottDog has had a good weekend.
I hope the new drugs continue to help, it's so awful to think about losing any beloved dog, hopefully you will have many more happy weekends together x

LtEveDallas Tue 16-Oct-12 06:42:49

Thanks tantrums. She didn't want to walk this morning, so I left her curled upside down dreaming about squirrels. Let's hope today is another good day smile

bochead Tue 16-Oct-12 08:14:38

It's worth noting that owners of good, well bred poodle stock point blank refuse to let their dogs go to stud with a lab because of all the issues that have arisen with fashion for oodles, & the numbers winding up in rescues. Most now seem to insist on the neutering of pedigrees sold to pet homes (at the right age of course) in order to prevent their pups being drawn into the BYB trade for doodles.

Weak pedigree stick is therefore increasingly all that's available to wannabe doodle breeders - with all the health risks that carries. I'm also shocked at how many people insist on perpetuating the anti-allergy/non-shedding myth. Do people not bother to look at several examples of what a labradoodle is/do any research at all before purchase? It took the orginal Australian breeder many attempts and several litters before he managed to produce a single example of a low allergy pup (to be used as a guide dog so the was a valid reason for his attempts at a cross) He's also publicly stated that he regrets producing them, due to the ensuing fad for badly bred examples and the number that have ended up in rescue as a result.

slightlycrumpled Tue 16-Oct-12 11:37:07

I can only speak of my own experience, we found our breeder via the labradoodle website. The breeder had done all of the relevant health checks on both dogs, the poodle is a show dog who we were able to meet. We were very carefully vetted and we did agree that we would not be breeding from her.
We will be doing some training via dogs for the disabled for our child, and my father in law is allergic to dogs. We took the risk in a labradoodle in full knowledge that she may malt etc but hopefully won't so that FIL will still be able to help with DS.

It can't be inconceivable that the original need for the labradoodle won't extend to other people.

I am a novice but certainly she suits our very particular needs as well as being a completely gorgeous dog.

Discolite Tue 16-Oct-12 18:37:17

The breeder of my labradoodle was excellent. She had vet check certificates for both parents (eyes and hips) interrogated me on the phone as to my suitability to own a dog, had the puppies treated for worms and fleas and all in all was everything you could want from a responsible breeder. She is in the South East of England so probably a bit far for you OP.

I really don't understand the vitriol that cross breeds come in for. If there are are disreputable breeders, it isn't the fault of the cross breed! I wanted a labradoodle because they are gorgeous and energetic (tell me pedigree owners don't go for their breeds partly on looks). I didn't want a pedigree dog due to the genetic problems they often come with so opted for a cross breed. Don't try and tell me that pedigrees have fewer genetic problems when there are poor pugs and other snub nosed dogs with horrible breathing difficulties. If a mongrel litter had been available locally I would have gone for one of those.

I met the mother dog and one of last year's litter by the same father and they had a wonderful temperament. I would not have bought from a puppy farmer. I just dislike the assumption that just because you want a particular cross breed you are a brain dead fashion led airhead.

LtEveDallas Tue 16-Oct-12 20:54:42

Discolite, no matter how you want to phrase it your breeder was a back yard breeder / puppy farmer. There is no need to breed cutsie crosses. some pedigree breeds have genetic issues, but all you have done is taken the genetic issues apparent in the poodle and added them to the genetic issues apparent in the Labrador. The genetic problems of the two dogs don't cancel each other out!

If you wanted a gorgeous energetic dog why not just buy a poodle? You don't have to give them a 'show' haircut - a natural poodle looks like the 'perfect' labradoodle.

What's done is done, but don't kid yourself that your breeder did it for anything other than cold hard cash.

I don't think you are an airhead. But I do think you were fashion led and didn't do enough research before you bought your mutt.

twooter Tue 16-Oct-12 21:38:37

LtEveDallas, that is incredibly patronising.

midori1999 Tue 16-Oct-12 21:44:10

In order to create good quality cross breeds, surely you therefore need the best examples of each breed you can get hold of? In terms of looks, type, temprement and health.

As someone dedicated to 'my' pedigree breed, this really bothers me, because outstanding examples of each breed should surely be used to improve the quality of those breeds and not to produce crossbreeds? Most pedigree breeders (good ones at least!) that I know, feel the same way, they are dedicated to improving the breed and would no way allow their top quality dogs to be bred and therefore put at risk, for any reason but to improve their breed. So, what standard of dogs are being used to create these cross breeds?

As for 'show dogs'... hmm Anyone can take any pedigree dog that is KC registered and show it. I have known many people who take the same dog and show it frequently only to be bottom of the line up or near bottom, in a large class, every single time. Technically their dog is a 'show dog', but that doesn't make it a good example of the breed.

LtEveDallas Tue 16-Oct-12 22:19:55

Why twooter?

toboldlygo Tue 16-Oct-12 22:55:30

LOL midori - I have several trophies and multiple corkboards of rosettes won by my boy dog, who I started showing in KC companion dog shows as part of his socialisation after we adopted him. He is only an average example of the breed generally and has a significant fault that would mean he wouldn't be placed under a proper accredited breed judge (nothing that affects his health or working ability, purely cosmetic). His movement is excellent and he has a beautiful expression so is generally placed by all-round judges.

But I could wow any prospective puppy purchaser with the mantelpiece full of silver if that's what they wanted to see. Good job he came from a reputable rescue and was parted from his balls long ago! grin

AgathaFusty Wed 17-Oct-12 07:32:19

I thought LtEve's post was honest, not patronising.

" I wanted a labradoodle because they are gorgeous and energetic (tell me pedigree owners don't go for their breeds partly on looks)."

Of course people are attracted to a particular breed partly due to looks, but as has already been mentioned, naturally clipped poodles look exactly like the 'chocolate box' image of poodle/lab crosses. Poodles are also 'energetic', labs probably are too, although I don't have enough experience of those to catagorically say that.

"I didn't want a pedigree dog due to the genetic problems they often come with so opted for a cross breed."

A lot of the genetic problems associated with labradors are also associated with poodles, therefore crossing those particular two dogs together does not negate the problems, only a good and knowledgeable breeder can do that. Most owners of well-breed pedigree dogs are not going to allow their animal to breed indiscriminately to produce a cross-bred litter.

slightlycrumpled Wed 17-Oct-12 10:54:53

I'm sorry I just meant he had won lots of awards for kc obedience and agility rather than show dog.

Saying that I stand by our reasons for getting a labradoodle given that they are similar to why they were bred in the first place.

Surely there will be other people that could use an aid dog but be allergic. As I said earlier that was kind of the case with my son, apart from it is a close family relative (who helps us care for him) that has severe asthma which is triggered by dog hair.

AgathaFusty Wed 17-Oct-12 11:13:36

The thing is slightlycrumpled that anyone who needed an aid dog, but who is allergic to dog hair, could have a poodle. They didn't need to invent a cross-breed to serve that purpose, since there was/is already a breed in existence that fitted the requirement.

gymmummy64 Wed 17-Oct-12 11:21:49

I really don’t mean to restart the debate or antagonise anyone, but I’ve read the whole thread and I’m genuinely puzzled now about what is the ideal world.

I fully appreciate that there are thousands of rescue dogs (I have one myself) that need homes, are being destroyed and we do not need any more dogs added indiscriminately to the total. However, the gist of the argument seems to be (just trying to summarise, not over-simplify):
- The only reputable breeders are those that breed for the good of the breed and do so when they need additional dogs for showing or working – not for making money
- Anyone else is in it for the money and therefore will not take the care of the reputable breeders and should be avoided. Buying from them perpetuates non-reputable breeders

BUT, doesn't the argument above mean that in an ideal world, ONLY these reputable breeders (and maybe a couple of their friends) would ever own a dog? There would never be dogs available for ‘normal’ people like me, dog ownership would just be among a breeding elite. I don’t work or show my dog and I’m unlikely ever to work or show any dog – the logical conclusion of that seems to be that I should not have a dog. Even if I wanted one, there would never be anything like enough available because the only available dogs would be those left over from litters bred to fill a need to work or show.

Obviously we’re not in an ideal world and never will be, but that seems to be how it would be in this hypothetical ideal world. And because lots of people like me DO want to own a dog, demand would always therefore outstrip supply. And that’s where the problems start. So even if we could wave a wand and be in ideal world territory, it wouldn’t be long before we were back to where we are now - there are plenty of posts on here from people who've been unable to find the reputable breeders.

So, I’m genuinely puzzled about what the ideal world looks like when there are so many people (no, not total dog experts, but good and responsible people notwithstanding) who would like to own a dog.

Interesting post gymmummy. I don't know the answer, tbh. We got our dog from a woman who was almost certainly acting as a middleman for a puppy farmer. He's a cocker/springer cross, we adore him, but he is certainly not a good, healthy example of a cross breed dog. He has allergies, anal gland problems and some minor behavioural issues atm. He was bred cheaply, I doubt very much if anyone gave any thought to the health of his parents, they were just mated for money. Having seen him shivering and yelping in pain at 14 weeks old from an anal gland infection, an ear infection and a skin infection I don't think that I, personally, will ever buy another puppy. Sorting a reputable breeder from a BYB or a puppy farm is virtually impossible for a novice, and most pet dog owners are novices.

HoneyDragon Wed 17-Oct-12 12:32:44

The simple point is, anyone who wants to be a responsible dog owner should do there best to not to add to or further fuel the desire for designer dogs.

And they are designer dogs.

I was asked on Saturday why I had a Labrador, when they were so unoriginal as dogs hmm, this couple have "Spocker" and a "Golden Doodle" - they intend to breed from the doodle, despite her having terrible skin problems.

She is a beautiful dog, they have never had dogs before they "got one each".

I have never been so glad to get away from people.

Whilst I genuinely do appreciate that the owners of Doodles on this thread are excellent dog owners they are the exception, rather than the rule.

The reality is doodles are being bred for people like this couple, who want something "different", more than they want a pet.

And I do think Doodles are lovely dogs, and I adore making a huge fuss of any I meet, but I don't want to endorse family dogs being bred for cash.

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Oct-12 12:36:50

Way back in the mists of time accidental breeding was how 'normal' people like you got their dogs.

These dogs were 'Free to a Good Home'. People didn't make money off them the way they do now.

I'm not saying that it was all good - far from it. But more people are letting their dogs have litters, more cutsie cross breeds are becoming fashionable, because they know they can make some money out of it.

My own MuttDog was called a "Sprollie" on the Rescue site. She's not a Sprollie, she is the result of an accidental mating between a Boarder Collie and a Springer Spaniel (and actually I think a Lurcher may have had a go at some point too!). She is a Mutt. She doesn't need a cutsie name to be appealing.

I would happily put a year long ban on all breeding (Oh when I rule the world grin) with heavy fines for anyone who does. At the end of the year have a look at the Rescue situation, have a look at how many dogs have been PTS and either repeal or extend the ban.

(But I'd make a horrible World Leader - so best I just dream!)

Yeah, Jasper was termed a 'sprocker'. I did consider giving the DC mash ups of mine and DH's name, but calling them (for example) Geoffanie or Nigeryl seemed a bit unfair.

HoneyDragon Wed 17-Oct-12 12:57:58

grin chickens

My Lab was the product of a cash driven BYB so I am just as bad as everyone else.

BUT she needed a home, and I promised she would have one for life, that she would NEVER be bred from and that I'd let the lady who rescued her Mum know how she was doing.

Yet still, in a small way I've added to the bigger issue.

It's never going to simple, but education certainly helps smile

HoneyDragon Wed 17-Oct-12 12:58:35

Geoffanie - top name!

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Oct-12 13:14:01

Names have got a lot to do with it -

Which is cuter:

Labradoodle or Poodor

Sprollie or Springboard

Sproker or Cockspring

Golden Doodle or Poodle Retriever

Cockadoodle or Pooder

They chose the name that would have the most 'kerb' appeal. How many more ridiculous names could we come up with? I've got a hankering for a JackShit!

Cockspring is a word I could have got behind last week, when my dog was being an utter shit. It would have described him perfectly.

When I asked his 'owner' about his parentage, she insisted on using 'sprocker'. I kept saying 'So, he's a cross breed?' and she kept saying 'No, he's a sprocker'. Course, I'd seen him by then and there was no way I was going home without him. Which the bastards know. My childhood dog had a chihuahua/JRT mother and a Sheltie father. I can't think of a cute name <wracks brains>

sleepymum50 Wed 17-Oct-12 13:31:45

Hi Mrs. W - I got my labradoodle puppy nine years ago. I was told that originally they started breeding them in Australia to get a non-shedding dog to work as a guide dog for blind people. They crossed the labrador as it usually has one of the best temperaments for being a guide dog, and of course the poodle for non shedding. Plus there would be the element that cross breeds can have less health problems then pure breeds.

They then discovered that the combination of lab and poodle seemed to make for a brilliant personality, plus non shedding make it an option for families who had someone with a serious allergy.

However, the non shedding element doesn't always come through. I believe in Australia they were trying to breed true, by only breeding with non-shedding offspring.

So, if you want a non-shedding dog, your best bet is to go someone who is breeding 3rd, 4th generation labradoodles. But you can still get a throwback.

Unfortunately, they then became very popular - so everyone started doing it, and often promised the dog would be non shedding, which is impossible to promise in a first cross - and that is why there are tons of dogs in the rescue centre.

Ref: personality - my labradoodle is fantastic. She is a pig on legs Full of bounce and energy, and needed a firm hand when training. Just the nicest sweetest girl, who loves, loves, loves everyone. Must be with a family and someone who is home ALL day.

Her health has been good, with one or two injuries along the way. She's now got arthritis. I got her from someone near minehead. PM me if you want and I will look up the name and see if she's still going.

LtEveDallas Wed 17-Oct-12 13:43:36

Chickens - ChiTerTie?

LtEve, it sounds like a sneeze grin

midori1999 Wed 17-Oct-12 17:29:59

gymmummy64 The majority of well bred pedigree dogs go to pet homes. If a decent breeder wants to breed a puppy to keep and show/work, then they may end up with a litter of ten. Out of those, half may be of good enough quality to show successfully and therefore potentially breed from in the future, maybe a few more if you are very lucky, probably a few less. Even if all were of show quality and passed all health tests etc, it doesn't do the gene pool any good to breed from a large number of dogs with exactly the same bloodlines.

There are plenty of dogs currently both in rescue and 'left over' from well bred litters to fill pet homes. Of course, there are simply also some families, that although they want a dog, shouldn't have one too.

People who show/breed dogs aren't some sort of elite club, most good breeders expect a large proportion of their puppies to go to pet 'only' homes.

AgathaFusty Fri 19-Oct-12 17:48:07

Well, I met someone the other day walking a fluffy, smallish dog. She stopped to chat and I asked her what her dog was (big mistake!). She replied "he's a jack shit poo". I kid you not!

clam Fri 19-Oct-12 18:40:43

agatha I suspect she was winding you up.

But you know, this (this whole thread) is what I've come to loathe about MN and the doghouse in particular.

I'm a cockapoo owner and proud of it. So there. And if someone could have found me one in rescue I might have been interested, but I've never seen one yet.

midori1999 Fri 19-Oct-12 23:05:42

What is it you hate Clam, that people care passionately about the lives and welfare of dogs?! confused

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 12:57:12

I do find this baffling.

Its as if MN has its own microclimate of opinion on this issue; It's only on MN that I have heard any of this anti-doodle rhetoric.

Where I live (fairly rural) poodle crosses are by far the most represented type of dog, we have quite a fluffy community going on.

There are good and bad breeders of all types of dog, pedigree and cross breed. I don't think it as simple as stating that all cross breed breeders are terrible and all pedigree breeders are wonderful.

I agree that some breeders are in it for the money, some are in it for the healthy continuation of their chosen breed/type of dog, but I don't think there is a clean split along the line of cross breed/pedigree breeders as seems to be being argued in this thread.

The argument that good quality dogs should only be bred in the same line (i.e. to produce more of that type of dog) is really just an opinion. The follow-on argument, that by definition all breeders of poodle crosses don't give a shit about dogs, is also only an opinion.

It frustrates me to see these opinions presented as statements of fact.

IMO, all breeders should be licensed and the price of puppies should only be allowed to reflect the actual (demonstrable) cost of raising a litter. That would definitely weed out puppy farms, I don't know why legislation to this effect isn't introduced in this country.

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 13:00:33

P.s. Pleased to hear that RottDog is doing well. All fingers (and paws) crossed here.

midori1999 Mon 22-Oct-12 13:12:34

CackleMeIAmYours if you think ^It's only on MN that I have heard any of this anti-doodle rhetoric* then you probably don't frequent any dog or rescue specific forums.

With over 25,000 dogs being killed every single year in the UK, anyone breeding needs to have a really good reason. There's no excuse to be deliberately breeding crossbreeds or trying to 'create a new breed' (which isn't what is happening with doodles). The only reason anyone should be breeding (and even that should be on a very smalls cale) is to preserve what we already have in terms of pedigree breeds.

As for licensing of breeders, we already have that in the UK. Unless puppy farmers are licensed then they are acting illegally. Sadly, it does nothing for dog welfare and our government sees breeding dogs as a viable business opportunity, they don't care less about the ethical and welfare issues involved in breeding animals for money.

LtEveDallas Mon 22-Oct-12 13:25:45

Thankyou Cackle thanks

She's OK, but has developed the 'Cancer Cough' this weekend, so we are definately near the end. She still seems happier than she was though - she's no longer on Tramadol which I think has made a big difference. Each day is a bonus as they say smile

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 13:29:24

The only reason anyone should be breeding (and even that should be on a very smalls cale) is to preserve what we already have in terms of pedigree breeds.

This is your opinion. To which you are entitled, but it is an opinion, not a fact.

As for licensing of breeders, we already have that in the UK.

Do we? Which legislation is that you are referring to? Who do breeders have to be registered with? (I'm willing to stand corrected on this one, but I am unaware of any current legislation that catches this issue)

I respect you Midori, and have no wish to enter a bunfight with you, but just because it is your opinion that people should adopt a rescue dog, rather than a non-rescue puppy, it is unreasonable of you to impose that opinion on others.

I wouldn't adopt an adult dog from a rescue centre, because I know I lack the necessary skills to deal with any issues that dog may have and I can't take the risk that the dog will be issue free. There are precious few puppies in rescue, so for us it was puppy or no dog at all.

FWIW, I donate fairly substantial sums of money to our local rescue centre, so I do feel that I make some difference to the lives of disadvantaged dogs. I just wouldn't have one in my home.

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 13:37:40

Sorry, meant to also say that this

our government sees breeding dogs as a viable business opportunity, they don't care less about the ethical and welfare issues involved in breeding animals for money.

Is the problem here, and perhaps we should all be channelling our efforts towards getting this changed rather than sniping at each other for our choices of dog.

LtEveDallas So sorry - we're thinking of you. As you say, every day is special thanks

midori1999 Mon 22-Oct-12 15:15:04

Breeders have to be registered with their local council. It varies from council to council as to what the requirements are, but generally it is if you own three or more entire bitches, whether you say you are breeding from them or not. This has changed recently in Wales, which Scuttle will know more about than me. ALL puppy farmers should be licences breeders due to the number of bitches they own.

Of course, it would be great of anyone breeding at all had to be licences in some way, as a 'breeder' myself I would welcome this and I certainly don't think everyone should have to own a rescue dog. (I do have a rescue staff cross myself too).

Yes, it's my opinion that people shouldn't really be breeding, particularly in large numbers when so many dogs are being killed due to lack of homes. Do you think it's fine to just keep producing puppies when this is happening then, particularly when the motivation is money?

If someone can point me to the website of a responsible, ethically minded doodle breeder, of course, I'll happily admit I am wrong about this.

Floralnomad Mon 22-Oct-12 15:49:43

As I said on the XBreed thread , what gets me is that our local doodle owners seem to think that their dog is a step up from my rescue mutt because it is a designer X breed and they were charged a lot for it . Whilst we are on the subject of names my DM has 2 JRT x border terriers and we think they should be called Brussels (as in border Russell's) .

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 15:53:02

Right. <<dusts off law degree>> Statutory interpretation was never my strong suit, but under The Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 It does appear that all breeders need to have a license if they are producing puppies for sale (irrespective of how many bitches they have). The Act does also seem to cover the welfare of the dogs and also limit the number and frequency of litters.

As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps the answer is to prevent puppies being sold for profit? i.e. the pups can only be sold at a price which accurately reflects the cost of raising the litter?

Perhaps making it mandatory to spay/neuter all dogs sold as pets?

On the subject of responsible doodle breeders, I'm aware that one swallow doesn't make a summer, but I would be more than happy to put you in touch with the woman who bred our Labradoodle (she's not a business, so doesn't have a website). She is about as ethical and responsible as they come and cares enormously about the welfare of her dogs.

I'm sure there are plenty who are not, but the same can also be said for breeders of pedigree dogs.

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 16:02:50

Also (and sorry for the repeat posts) I understand the theory that if breeders were prevented from breeding, then more people would adopt dogs from rescue centres. Speaking from personal experience, and from talking to other dog owners, I don't believe that this is the case.

A lot of posters on the Doghouse are very experienced and knowledgeable about dogs, particularly about caring for dogs with issues, but this is not true of the general population (me included btw).

I think that if the supply of puppies were reduced by stopping people breeding their dogs, then dog ownership in general would decrease dramatically (i.e. the population of dogs in rescue centres would remain at similar levels.

Has this happened in any other countries? (breeding of puppies being seriously restricted). I'd be really interested to look at figures that show the effects of such legislation on numbers of dogs in rescue centres.

Cackle, you asked about the legislative background to regulation of dog breeding. You have two Acts that are relevant - Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 introduced the requirement for licensing by local authorities. This has been amended by subsequent legislation. Animal Welfare Act 2006 introduced the so called "5 freedoms" that governed the way all companion animals were kept including farmed dogs. Your local Council will keep a register of licensed dog breeding premises - many allow you to view the register online, and you can also see the application form/conditions.

To make matters slightly more complex, animal welfare is a devolved responsibility in Wales (and I believe in Scotland too) so the situation here is slightly different. Wales has an enormous problem with puppy farms and after a long struggle the Welsh Government is likely to introduce new regulations shortly governing this - after going through two lengthy rounds of consultations and a great deal of preparatory work which I've been very closely involved in.

However, one very worrying development that is starting to overshadow this is the unintended consequence of recent relaxation in dog travelling rules. We are now seeing a growing trade in very small pups coming in from Central and Eastern Europe - these sources will almost certainly be able to undercut the already very cheap pups sourced in Wales/Ireland and we could see the market move this way. Bear in mind that the vast majority of puppy farmers do not sell directly to the public but via wholesalers who sell via websites - if anyone buys a dog through the main selling sites you are almost certainly buying from a puppy farm source.

If you have any questions about the legislation, I'd be happy to answer them as best as I am able.

CackleMeIAmYours Mon 22-Oct-12 16:15:10

That's really interesting, thanks for the info and analysis Scuttlebutter

midori1999 Mon 22-Oct-12 16:17:10

I am sure Scuttle can answer far more comprehensively that I can Cackle. However, regarding the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act you linked to, the 'welfare' standards are sadly massively inadequate. No bitch of a year old should be having a litter of puppies and 6 litter is far too many for any one bitch IMO.

I think there is a massive misconception regarding rescue dogs. There are many puppies in rescue, particularly older puppies of 6-12 months old. There are also many dogs in rescue (the majority of them) that do not have any issues whatsoever and a large proportion who's history is known. Most are given up simply because their owners couldn't be bothered. sad

I agree Midori - I certainly wouldn't say the current rules on dog breeding are anything to be proud of.

Cackle may not be aware, but it's currently perfectly legal for a farmer to have over 90 (yes, you read that right) breeding bitches and have 1.5 FTE staff. Sadly, I could point you at a long list of other similar welfare issues in farmed dogs.

There are many misconceptions regarding rescue dogs - there's the:-

They're all Staffies
Why can't I get a pedigree
They are damaged goods - behaviourally unsound
Impossible to find a rescue that will rehome to a family with DC
No puppies or young dogs

All of these are misconceptions. You want a specific breed, then there's nearly always a specialist breed rescue. They're NOT all Staffies. Lots are beautifully behaved and have well known backgrounds - for most racing greyhounds this is very much the case - they have been predictably bred, reared and trained and you certainly DO know what you are getting, including a very long pedigree and racing history. For other breeds, rescue simply means they were given up - common reasons for relinquishment include divorce or separation, emigration, loss of job, death of owner, decision to have children, lifestyle changes (including moving to rented accommodation where pets not allowed). NONE of these actually have anything to do wiht the behaviour of hte poor dog involved.

Many rescues will rehome to families with DC - many have sensible policies that are taken on a "dog by dog" basis or after looking at your specific circumstances.

Pups and young dogs come up with regularity and frequency. Was talking on FB to someone only last night whose sofa has been colonised by a pregnant bitch who'd been abandoned. Bitch is now sharing a home with 2 dogs, a cat, several DC and will be having her pups shortly - these will be found homes.

Most rescues will do thorough homechecks, and will supply you with a dog that is wormed, vaxed, neutered/spayed, chipped, health checked, behaviourally assessed, and comes with a lifelong guarantee of support and backup if anything goes wrong. For example, we currently have two foster hounds (of four) who are staying with us while their owner is seriously ill in hospital. She adopted them through the rescue around five or six years ago - yet they will be homed together with us for as long as it takes, and if their owner is not able to have them back, a lifelong home will be found for them (probably here blush). There are not many breeders on Epupz who will do this.

tabulahrasa Mon 22-Oct-12 19:12:19

Even when dogs are given up because of their behaviour... A lot of those are still puppies really, puppies that haven't been trained, have got near to adult size and are 'unmanageable' - except all they need is exactly the training you'd give a younger puppy and they usually learn it quicker as well.

rachmultiplemum Mon 22-Oct-12 19:43:47

Its rather sad to read that someone wouldn't have a rescue dog in their home.

There are many many lovely dogs in rescues. Dogs that have been handed in because of relationship breakdowns, financial problems, changes in the families circumstances, ill health of owners and much much more. These dogs tend to be much loved little dogs who do not have problems.

There are also lots of puppies in rescues, pedigrees, 'designer' breeds and heinz 57's.

You just need to look a bit further then your local rescue, and also look at breed rescues.

LtEveDallas Sun 04-Nov-12 21:18:14

Apologies for dragging up an old thread - and then hijacking it again smile. I was going to do this by PM, but they seem to be playing silly buggers still!

With many, many thanks to those who asked. We said goodbye to RottDog this weekend sad. We will miss her loads, but it was time. She gave a two wonderful actually pretty stressful years and our house is too big without her.

Thanks again, and thanks for the messages thanks

AgathaFusty Mon 05-Nov-12 17:46:14

LtEve oh, I'm so sorry. Hope you and your family are coping ok.

x

EdgarAllanPond Mon 05-Nov-12 17:49:22

rottdog thanks

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 05-Nov-12 18:55:20

Ah LtEve. I am so sorry ((((hugs)))) RIP RottDog.

RedwingWinter Mon 05-Nov-12 20:33:13

I'm so sorry LtEve. RIP RottDog.

LtEveDallas Mon 05-Nov-12 22:30:44

Thank you all. We are OK, but a bit shell shocked TBH. It's not like it was a surprise, but it was very, very hard to do it.

DD has surprised me, she's upset, but not as bad as I thought - Rott wasn't 'her' dog in the way that MuttDog is, and she is concentrating on looking after Mutt because "Mutt is very sad mum". DH took it badly on the day, but is fine now as long as we don't talk about her.

I console myself with the fact that we took her away from a horrible life and gave her a good one, no matter how short. Her last week was spent on a beach and in the sea - somewhere she was happy smile

HoneyDragon Mon 05-Nov-12 23:41:31

thanks sad oh Eve.
I'm so sorry, RIP RottDog.

febel Tue 06-Nov-12 07:17:52

Just to add my half pennyworth...you sound like you know what your're doing and I'm sure have done plenty of research. My bro has a labradoodle, he got as a puppy from RSPA. My friend also has one. They look totally diff dogs , cos does depend on parents and which one was mum /dad, genetics etc Both shed, quite a lot, tho more like tumble fluff than fur, and shed a lot at certain times of year (like NOW! As does our lab cross....pools of fur on the floor..but gets you vacuuming!) They both have diff sort of coats...one is q curly and the other longer.

Both are VERY lively dogs, and my bros dog in partic is quite naughty and has destroyed a lot of stuff...think "Marley and Me " and you have it about right! But then all dogs vary in personality and it depends on the training too. Btu people forget, poodles are one of the most intelligent dogs, and labs, tho lovely are very bouncy, particularly when young. My bros dog has also had allergies.

Good luck with whatever you get, and you sound lilke you know what you're doing so enjoy!!

(as regards the puppy poodle cut..we always called it a lamb cut at the dog groomers I worked at..and when I first saw it I was surprised more people didn't have it done cos I think it's one of the most attractive cuts for a poodle!)

LtEveDallas Tue 06-Nov-12 15:22:30

Thanks Honey, I appreciate it smile

HoneyDragon Tue 06-Nov-12 18:16:55

<<sneaks in a ((hug)) for Eve too>>

Aw, so sorry LtEve sad thanks

LtEveDallas Tue 06-Nov-12 20:21:00

Cheers Chickens smile

alicetrefusis Wed 07-Nov-12 22:55:08

What Agatha said.
Awful.
If you can't cope with moulting , why are you even thinking about having dogs?
These are so-called designer breeds - hideous.
Pedigree dogs bred for looks rather than working ability is bad enough
Breeding dogs who don't shed is even worse.
Go to your local shelter - and do come away empty-handed please. But think.

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