Should I be worried about this - breeding related

[Neverjoketodogs]

My BIL and SIL bought an English Bulldog bitch with the sole purpose of breeding her. They have no experience and she is their first dog. They explained to me that the woman who sold her to them will mate her when she is in season then they will look after her until she is ready to have the pups. Apparently the pups will be hand-reared and they will take mum home. They are hoping to breed her several times and that they will sell the pups for £1-2k each. They just see it as a money-making project.

Should I be worried about this situation? It just doesn't sit comfortably with me but, although I own a rescue dog, I have no experience of breeding or puppies.

[georgedawes]

That's awful, I would think there is a big chance the bitch could need a c section, who would pay for that? Poor dog.

[TrionicLettuce]

I don't even know where to start with that to be honest. There's so much wrong with that plan it boggles the mind.

Sadly they've obviously got a shitty, unethical breeder on side already and there's no shortage of gullible or wilfully ignorant mugs who'll pay over the odds for a unethically bred dog if it means they can get what they want when they want

I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll provide various links you can pass on to them when I get home. Unfortunately I fear you're likely fighting a losing battle.

[Aliiiii]

This breaks my heart
I have a rescue bulldog, I rehomed her from Battersea 4 years ago
She had been bred from to within an inch of her life, 3 possibly 4 pregnancies that all ended in c sections
When she was 'gifted' to the home she was a mess, severely underweight, ear and severe skin infections which had been left untreated
Today she is an adored member of our family but it makes me so angry that she had to endure so much
Please, please make your feelings known
I'm sure if they've got pound signs in front of their eyes it will make little difference, but I wonder if they're aware that they could lose their meal ticket if she doesn't survive being put out for the cs, as has been the case for some owners

[Imnotaslimjim]

Bulldogs are prone to needing c sections, which are very expensive and dangerous for the dog

Why are they removing the pups from mum and hand rearing them? Its a lot of effort and runs this risk of losing the pups.

[Neverjoketodogs]

I'm so upset and feel sick just thinking about it. You have confirmed my fears. I tried to let my feelings known but sadly it fell on deaf ears. They are so gullible as they have been told that the 'breeder' is a 'vet' and therefore knows what she is doing.

Is there anything else I can do other than let them know how wrong this is. Unfortunately they don't live close by and were very cagey about how they found the 'breeder' or where she is based.

The poor dog and poor pups.

[TrionicLettuce]

Right.....

Proportion of litters born by c section by breed - bulldogs have a c section rate of 86%. If this bitch isn't from self-whelping lines then then chances are she's going to need a c section.

This is a list of all the necessary health tests for Bulldogs and this is the health scheme that the breed council run. Appropriate health screening plus knowledge of conformation is absolutely vital for breeding Bulldogs that aren't riddled with health issues. How would your BIL and SIL feel if any of the pups were crippled with bad hips or malformed spines and they hadn't bothered with hip scoring or x-raying to check for Hemivertebrae?

This is an American Kennel Club article which gives an excellent breakdown of just how much work it is to breed properly. Even in the healthiest and most robust breeds breeding well is far from just chucking the closest dog and bitch with working reproductive systems at each other and hoping for the best.

A blog post by Dr Sophia Yin concerning the issues that can arise in puppies which are hand reared. There's a very good reason why hand rearing is an absolute last resort for decent breeders. Whilst in some cases it's unfortunately necessary and it can be successful as far as the puppies surviving goes it is absolutely not the best start for them.

This whole set up sounds incredibly dodgy and they're kidding themselves thinking it's going to be a great money making scheme. How are they sorting out who pays for what? Will the breeder charge boarding fees whilst the bitch is staying with her? Who will pay for her food, vet care and anything else she needs during that period? Who is paying the stud fee? Who will pay for the c section if she needs one? Who is going to pay for all the substitute milk? What about the breeder's time investment? Raising a litter is a full time job even when the bitch is doing all the feeding, hand rearing is literally 24/7. Is this woman really going to do that for no financial reward herself, especially as she's clearly not got the best interests of either bitch or puppies at heart? What happens if the bitch only has one puppy? Or more and some are stillborn or they die whilst being hand reared? Who covers all the costs then?

There's also the potential impact on the bitch, and any puppies, both physically and mentally. A c section is very major surgery and isn't remotely risk free. They also can't expect to take their bitch away from her puppies and have no psychological fallout. Presuming the pups are immediately whisked away whilst the bitch is still in surgery, she's not going to come round from the anaesthetic and behave like she was never pregnant. Her body will also not suddenly stop acting as if she has a litter to feed. As I said above hand rearing is really not the best in start in life for puppies, either physically or mentally. Choosing in advance to hand rear a litter is actively reducing their chances of surviving and becoming happy, well rounded dogs.

Even when breeders do everything they possibly can to ensure the greatest chance of a successful pregnancy and a happy, health mother and litter things can and do go wrong. Breeding without doing everything possible to ensure the welfare of the bitch in the short term and the mental and physical health of the puppies in the long term is absolutely deplorable.

I hope they will listen to you Never and reconsider doing this.

[Neverjoketodogs]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such an informative post trionic

I will do my best to get them to reconsider. They clearly have not a clue and have gone into this with their eyes firmly shut. I will certainly ask about the financial side of things because they seem to think they are going to make several thousand pounds per litter and I don't think they have considered all the potential outgoings. I think that will come as shock to them. They are ignorant and cruel and once I have done my best to dissuade them, I will be stepping back and out of their lives. I will be unable to maintain any sort of relationship with them if they continue with this.

[NeedACleverNN]

Sounds like someone from my dh's work

He has bought and sold on 4 dogs in 8 weeks. He now has a female he intends to breed just so he can buy a bulldog. He will regime all of them when they get the bulldog and breed her instead.

What he knows about dogs could fill a pea and that is it. Unfortunately he is pig headed and won't listen

I hope yours do for that poor dogs sake

[Bubble2bubble]

It's very hard to reason with someone who just sees a dog as a money making object.
At a guess they are very unlikely to get the money they think they will, but it does sound like they are basically subcontracting for a puppy farmer. As others have said I can't get my head around why anyone would choose to handrear a litter of pups unless it was absolutely necessary. Presume the pups will be sold early as " mother tragically died giving birth "
Bulldogs have so many health problems - many cannot even mate naturally- the risks for their dog are extremely high, but until people stop handing over £1000s for a pup there will always be 'breeders' who will Carr on regardless.
Good luck in reasoning with them, it sounds a horrible situation.

[Aliiiii]

Have a read of this, happening far too often

[Whitney168]

Trionic's post says it all, but just to underline (given that it's probably the only bit they'll care about ...) that they are not going to be the ones making a mint from this, it will be the greedy mare who sold them the poor bitch that gets rich. Are they really so naive to think she would just send them a huge cheque when puppies are all sold?

[TheoriginalLEM]

Well the breeder clearly isn't a vet as most vets would absolutely not encourage this breed. Has the "vet" explained to your friend that most bulldog pregnancy ends in a cesarean which during the day you are probably looking at £1000 bill but if OOH then you can triple that? There isn't going to be much return on her investment! ! let alone the risks of the dog dying under anaesthetic due to its fucked up breathing.

Please persuade them not to do this.

[NeedACleverNN]

I can see why people are tempted though..

Got a breeder come up on my FB.

Sire is a merle bulldog (and I hate merles because of their bad breeding anyway)

They have 10 puppies. The cheapest 3 are £1500. The rest are between £2000 and £2250

[Wyldfyre]

Hand feeding is a really bad idea as well. Pups learn from mum so there's the potential for all sorts of behavioural problems if separated

[Wyldfyre]

Sorry should clarify - deliberately separating and hand rearing when there is no proper reason to do so

[greatscott81]

Why would anyone do this to a dog? They aren't fricking cash cows, for god's sake. You need money - go and bloody earn it like everyone else.

[Neverjoketodogs]

It really is awful and I'm even more upset about it now that I have the confirmation that it is so wrong both for the mum and the pups. I was too shocked when they told me to say very much but now I'm armed with facts, especially that they are unlikely to make any money from it, I plan to speak to them again and try to get them to re-think.

Sadly, I don't hold out much hope.