Puppy training old versus new style

[tobee]

Hello, I hope this isn't a massive old chestnut, I think it probably is though.
My puppy is nearly 7 months old, my first dog, and I think he's great, and love him.

Before Christmas we went to puppy training classes and it was clicker based. He did well at the class.

However, all my friends/acquaintances with older dogs seem to be signed up to the old style dog training theory, yanking dogs to walk at heel (as opposed to training through clicker/treat) One was not pleased the other week when my pup jumped up and left muddy marks. When I asked her for advice she said I need to be mean to the pup (only verbally I assume).

I want my pup to be well trained and I don't want to shout at him etc. Or have him fearful.

I just wondered if any other new puppy owners have had this dilemma and what they did? Or is everyone just stronger than me and does what they want with their pups? It's just really bothering me at times.

[basildonbond]

have you just been to one set of 'puppy' classes? and nothing since? Getting a well-trained dog (by whatever method you choose, although positive training will get you better results in the end plus ensure a better relationship with your dog) takes a lot more than 4 or 6 classes - it's a work in progress!

If you liked the class you attended before Christmas why don't you see if they have classes for older puppies? We've been taking our dog to obedience classes since he was 3 and a bit months old and he's now 19 months. I also take him to gundog training and an occasional heelwork to music class. He loves going to training - he really enjoys using his brain (and meeting all his doggy pals). He is pretty well-trained (certainly compared to most of the dogs around here) but still has his moments so I certainly wouldn't feel that we could stop the training process.

By the way, positive training doesn't mean that puppies are allowed to do whatever they want - there are still boundaries (which include keeping muddy paws on the floor!)

[muttynutty]

Its just like parenting everyone and I mean everyone will give you advice on training your dog...they will all know the best thing to do even if you do live with your dog 24/7

Arm yourself with knowledge, smile sweetly and ignore them.

I agree about doing more courses, they will help to show you the best way to continue training your dog.

Some excellent books:-

The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson

Karen Pryor - Don't shoot the dog

Life Skills for puppies by Helen Zulch and Daniel Mills

Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know: What Dogs Think and Know by Alexandra Horowitz

The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison

[Booboostoo]

Training a puppy under any method takes time. As a rough guide it can take about a year to have the basics in place, but of course then teenager hood strikes and some of it goes out the window. Realistically dogs need some kind of training for their entire lives - not necessarily formal classes, but reflecting on what they are doing, why they are doing it and working to change it.

Dominance and choke chain training is outdated, ineffective and cruel. It's up to you what methods you want to use but anyone who says that they have 100% control over a puppy under all circumstances is talking rubbish. It's exactly like parenting, it all works perfectly until you come across a problem!

[Buttholelane]

I'm a little old style but mostly positive.
E.g. I taught not jumping positively by either removing myself or herself from the situation immediately but if I know that she has learnt and knows that we don't jump at people and chooses to jump anyway I am not averse to yelling get down!! In my loudest, most threatening tone and dramatically ending off lead time.

[muttynutty]

A year to get the basics

A 8 week old puppy will know its name, sit ,down etc.

Training is ongoing but the basics will be in place in the first few months especially if using positive training.

I'll dig out some videos of positive trained puppies doing tricks etc at weeks old.

[tobee]

Thanks for these replies. I definitely subscribe to the ongoing nature of training. I do homework and hope to do the next level of training classes and would love to do other classes of a less straightforward training nature. I'm certainly aware that it takes time!!

I was just astonished that everyone else in rl seems to be more old styley. I was starting to think I was being some kind of mug just trying firm but non shouty/aversion style training.

It certainly is like how people give you child rearing advice. I never had a problem with ignoring that advice I thought was questionable. I suppose the difference with dogs is that he's adopted by me, he could have had a different "mum" who might have done a better job!

[Booboostoo]

Don't be so hard on yourself. Dog training is a learning process, exactly like parenting, you both learn what works and what doesn't.

Can you go back for some more positive reinforcement classes? Here is one solution to jumping up:
You need two people for this and you must brief your friend on what to do. Dog on lead, one person holds lead and does nothing. Second person approaches dog. If dog keeps all feet on the ground the person approaching clicks and treats, retreats and repeats. If the dog jumps up the person approaching folds her arms, turns her back on the dog and walks away. Waits a few seconds and repeats. Repeat in as many places as possible and with as many different people as possible.

IMO it takes quite a long time for a dog to learn a behaviour consistently and reliably. A new environment can throw them, an exciting situation can throw them, etc. so it's not so much that they know something but are unwilling to do it, but that they don't really know something. For example, in an advanced obedience class the trainer asked us once to lie down and then aske our dogs to sit. These were dogs that had competed for years, doing stuff like distance control, but only one dog out of ten obeyed the sit command when the handler was lying down. They were not being awkward, just the change of the handler's position was too much and changed what was happening enough to throw them.

nutty I've had new arrivals do sits and downs at 7 weeks and they look super cute doing it, but I wouldn't count that as having established the command. For an established command I want a dog that will sit immediately, following one softly spoken or indicated command, in any kind of environment and ignoring any distraction - that takes time. I do think it takes about a year to train a family dog as there is a lot to learn, from not jumping up, to walking nicely on lead, to being examined at the vets, to waiting in the car until invited out, to recall, etc The list is quite long and reliable behaviour requires time.

[muttynutty]

Interesting Boo. Personally I would not be happy if I did not have more control over my puppies than at a year old. Part of their socialisation in my plan is to be able to give behaviours with distractions and in new environments. As soon as they are out and about they will be sitting waiting to watch new things giving downs in new environments. However my positive based training is to a game to them - they just think they are playing and having fun with me so are up for it most of the time.

LLW is never allowed to become a pull so that is sorted from day one - generally most people spend hours retraining the mistakes they have made on this one.

So my puppies would be giving reliable sits, down, wait, watch me, recall to their name in many different situations from a very young age. I do give intensive training for the first few weeks and then when the behavior is established we can just work on distractions. Puppies are like sponges and it seems a shame to miss the early opportunity of training then the time can be spent on specific sport or competition training.

The average age in my dog training class to do KC Gold citizen is 8 months.

May I add this is not just puppies any new rescue or foster dog would get the same plan.

Dog training should not take months and months if done correctly positively and consistently BUT what does bugger it up is allowing the dogs to get confused messages in situations (then having to take time to retrain a confused dog)

[CalamityKate1]

Depends what you mean by trained I suppose.

My friend and I made a start with her 14 week old pup yesterday and with the clicker, had him offering sits within ten minutes.
Adding the cue might take another session.
Getting the behaviour on cue, in any situation, with distractions and stimulus control will take longer depending on how much work she puts in.

I've heard very experienced trainers say that they wouldn't consider recall truly learnt until the dog was a year old.

But you do get what you put in.