Puppy biting - not just nipping - not our dog!

[puppyworry]

I have nc-ed as I don't know if the owner is a MNer - this is going to be an essay, sorry in advance but don't want to dripfeed.

DS (10) is desperate for a dog. As DH is dead against it, I signed up for a website that matches people who love dogs with people who need dogsitting, to see that would either satisfy DS's doggie longings or else put him off when faced with the reality.

We were contacted by the owner of a puppy (intelligent retriever-type breed) and have her for about 4 hours, 2 days a week. The puppy is gorgeous, we've known her since she was 9 weeks, she's now about 16 weeks.

However, I'm getting a little concerned about her and, as my last experience of this breed of dog (same as my mother's dog) was when I was 10, and not as a puppy, I was hoping to get some advice here.

In the early days the puppy did the usual mouthing/nipping and I did all the 'squeal in pain and ignore' thing that they recommend in puppy books, she seemed to get over this. When she's with me she's normally as good as gold (this is not meant to be a boast on my part, we have a little walk together, a nap and then we play til it's time to pick up DS, whereupon he walks her across the park back to the owner's home and has a little play with her on the way, so she doesn't really get a chance to play me up!).

However, I've noticed that when we drop her off back to her people (they have several primary age children) she goes absolutely MENTAL, running up and down the house, growling and snapping and biting around their ankles. She gets shouted at and put into her crate. We're always leaving at this point, so I've never really seen any more of what happens. She is watched by several other sitters during the week as well as us.

We've been away for the last week and a bit and on coming back I was presented with a water spray and a 'use that on her if she barks - she won't stop barking'. She's never barked that we've been aware of, only whined a little if put to bed before she thinks it's her bed time. Anyway, this is half term and DS is at home. We took her for a walk, had a lovely play with her, after her nap she wanted to play again, DS started playing with her and suddenly she went for his ankles, barking, snapping and snarling - I was watching them and it wasn't a case of getting carried away with play, it was from zero 'here's one of your toys' to her full on biting at his socks/trouser leg. DS tried to disengage and got bitten on his forearm, breaking the skin. She has not been barking today, but did start barking prior to the 'attack'.

Now, the point of this post (there is one, I promise!) is do I continue to mind this dog? She's not our dog, so we have no business suggesting to the owner that perhaps she is in need of training (she doesn't go to any puppy classes, something else that bothers me as she is unsocialised and very nervous of other dogs, though I have been introducing her to other (nice) dogs on our walks and she's getting better), and only seeing her 2 days a week (no idea what her other minders do with her) I don't think we can do enough to train her out of biting (can we?). We can only vote with our feet and not see her anymore. Now, while we both love this puppy, she's such a happy, loving girl, I cannot have her biting DS (DS has been amazing over it, btw, not bothered at all, but I am!) or going for his feet when he walks past.

So, is there anything I can do in the limited time I have with the puppy in the week to get her not to bite, or do I walk away? She doesn't bite me, she has never shown aggression with me (she's as good as gold 1-2-1 but I'm a very calm person and I think that rubs off?), but I'm concerned that as she's like this around the children she lives with, she's going to continue to be like this around DS?

Or will she grow out of this?

Aaargh, I don't know what to do - I certainly don't want lumps taken out of DS!

All advice welcome...-*

[golassiego]

In short, if this poor little dog is getting mixed messages from all its different minders then no, you can't fix this.

The question of whether you should continue to mind her hinges a lot on whether you feel able to approach her owners about their inconsistent and inadvisable methods. I think you should, but be prepared for the relationship to break down. Unless they are prepared to address this issue properly then I don't think you should continue to see the dog :(

[70isaLimitNotaTarget]

Poor little soul
The owners shout at her and stick her in the crate.
Spray her if she barks ( Erm, dogs bark, usually there's a good reason)

She is getting alot of mixed messages.
Some people like yourself are calm.
Some , wind a dog up.

Your DS is 10, sounds quite sensible. Is he scared of the puppy due to her actions? I wouldn't want a biter near my DC to be honest even if it was a puppy but I know sometimes it's one of those things and they grow out of it.

The telling thing is the change in the short space of time.
And it makes you wonder why they got a puppy and put it into Puppy Sitting . Are they/were they unaware of the work involved?

Personally, I think I'd stick with it a while if your DS is happy to (as it was for him that you started) but you might need to raise some points with the owners.
I wouldn't use a spray to quieten a puppy. Or shout at it.
Crate , yes, for it's own safety.

[puppyworry]

Thanks for the responses.

The owner is a single parent, who works full time but has help from a sibling with their children. The puppy sitters are for during the day as the sibling has their own family to contend with but does school runs etc for the owner.

I tend to see the sibling rather than the owner when I drop the pup home. I told the sibling today what had happened, they said 'oh, she's done that to x and y and z (the children)'. I said I was concerned about this sudden aggression, the sibling replied "well, that's what the spray's for, that and the barking. And puppies teethe, don't they?"

I don't actually think this is teething (although I'm prepared to be told otherwise), as it seems quite specific. I think this is an aggressive game to the puppy. She only does it to children, she has never done it with me (although the sibling did say she has done it to them as well) and she has plenty of chews and toys to teethe on, which we were offering to her when she was after DS's ankles, but she wasn't interested.

I've mentioned training in the past to the owner on the rare occasion I've seen them, generally in the way of saying Puppy and I were working on 'heel' today (or whatever) when we were walking, and they got very defensive, saying that they did all that stuff too as if I were accusing them of not doing it - if that makes sense? As it is, the pup is from a working breed and loves to be busy - she really wants to be a good girl and please you, which is why I find it quite sad that she's not getting any training beyond the bits & bobs I do with her (that I know of, at least). I get the impression (I may be mistaken) that the puppy doesn't get a huge amount of attention from the adults in the house, and a lot of rough-housing from the kids.

In answer to 70's questions, the puppy was bought for the children - I've heard the owner refer to it as 'their dog' when they want the puppy fed or taken outside etc 'this is your dog, you need to look after it' - the children are all younger than DS, the youngest is 5. DS wasn't bothered by the biting at all, he's quite sensible around animals.

I don't want to spray a puppy with water and lemon juice (which is apparently what this bottle contains) for doing what a dog does.

I suppose I've answered my own question here, haven't I? I do feel so bad for the poor little thing, though, she's such a good pup when there are no children around, but I can't have DS run the risk of being bitten again.

[SpicyBear]

Poor pup - it sounds like it has absolutely no consistency in its life and is being ruined by terrible owners with an appalling attitude. Small children cannot be responsible for a puppy. A puppy cannot be passed to lots of different people all week and be trained properly. She has no idea what is expected of her.

I would walk away now before you are any more attached. Depending on whether you ever need to deal with these people again, I would be explaining exactly why. They might not listen, but you'd have tried. Their methods may very well lead to aggression and I would be reluctant to have a dog around children that is being borderline mistreated/neglected when it's at home.

OP this is a great example of why it's so frustrating being involved with dogs. You sound lovely with a good approach to raising a dog and would provide an excellent home. Your DH is probably against because you are responsible people who would take it seriously. Whereas the people that don't think it through or take responsibility just go and buy a pup for their kids without a second thought.

I'm not trying to have a dig but this is another example of why I don't think that website is a very good idea at all.

[puppyworry]

Thank you, Spicy. I'm not so sure I'm lovely, more realistic, I suppose.

DH is against a dog in terms of he is not prepared to do any "work" related to the dog - ie poo pick up, walking when it's cold/dark/raining/early and feels it would be a tie if we wanted to go on holiday. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with him, it's his house too and tbh I don't want all the responsibility to be entirely on me, so we'd hoped using this website would be a good compromise. As it is, when he's met the puppy he's loved her, and seems to be thawing slightly on the matter of us getting a dog, but he is rigid on the matter of not doing anything for the dog that involves poo or inconvenience, so I'm kind of resigned on that one! :( :(

Anyway, I'm already attached, I fear, but not so much that I want to put DS at risk. Tbh, if we could afford it and DH was a bit more amenable I think I'd offer to buy the poor little soul off them and sort out some proper puppy training but you're right, I can't do it alone for a random 2 days a week when it's not being reinforced by anyone else the rest of the time. And we currently have small furries that she's not been introduced to so I have to think of them too (if we were getting a dog from scratch we'd be looking at another breed altogether or a rescue dog that we knew didn't have chase/herd instincts!)

Ah well :( DS is at a friend's today while I have her again, I think I will have to tell them after that that this is it. If we use that site again, it will be to find a sensible adult dog that just needs the occasional walk!

Thanks to all who replied, this has really helped to clarify things in my mind.

[Floralnomad]

I'd keep working on your DH ,when we finally persuaded my DH to have a dog he wasn't getting involved, I didn't mind it was me that wanted the dog . 4 yrs on he will walk him if necessary and loves him to bits ,likewise the dog sees him as a great source of biscuits . In the meantime have you thought about volunteering with the cinnamon trust ,your DS is too young but I'm sure nobody would object to him helping you .Another idea would be to see if you could sign up with a rescue as a fosterer .