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I think dpup might have to go back to the rescue.

60 replies

TheHoundsBitch · 25/09/2014 13:16

I feel so guilty and sad :(
She has been biting a LOT and we are very worried that she is going to hurt DS, so we got a trainer to come and see her today to help with training and how to deal with the biting. Trainer was very positive to start with but about half way through the session dpup went crazy (as she does) and bit her. Trainer is now saying that dpups biting problem is extreme (the rescies behaviour team said this too when I described dpup to them on the phone) and sometimes dogs can't be trained to be 'lovely dogs'.
I'm so worried that dpup is going to hurt Ds and I wonder if the best thing is to return her to the rescue :(
She is such a bright puppy, training all the basics is going well but its like she loses control and can't help herself, she is drawing blood frequently when she bites and has little interest in toys. She would much rather bite my clothes and skin than a toy.
Sorry if this is garbled, I'm at a loss. I don't want to be one of those people who give up their puppy when it gets a bit tough, but I'm not sure its safe for DS if we keep her.
We are in a really good position to have a puppy, we thought everything through carefully and we are gutted that its gone so wrong. I don't want to give up on her, I feel so guilty.

OP posts:
TheHoundsBitch · 25/09/2014 13:19

I don't know what I want from this thread really. Please don't flame me.
Pup is a 9/10 week old large crossbreed (probably mainly ridgeback, also she could be a bit older than I said, her background is unknown before the rescue got her).

OP posts:
Twitterqueen · 25/09/2014 13:23

Not flaming you.
You don't say how old DS is?
are you sure it's only 9/10 weeks? I was going to say that this is the reason why I got a puppy from a registered breeder, because I had 3 young DCs.

If it is only 9/10 weeks old I would have thought it could be trained but if trainer has doubts I wouldn't risk my DS tbh.

rembrandtsrockchick · 25/09/2014 13:23

I think you are doing the right thing. It's possible that she may respond to long term training but this is not an option for you when there are children about.

Try not to feel guilty. It seems that you have done all that can reasonably expected and that the time has come to return her to the rescue centre.

LoonytoadQuack · 25/09/2014 13:25

What methods did the trainers recommend?

Arriettyborrower · 25/09/2014 13:26

I'd feel exactly the same as you hounds, in fact you were on a thread I started last week so you know I was struggling with the biting (luckily for me mine is now rarely nipping and responding brilliantly with training)

Your dpup sounds very difficult and I would be concerned like you re your ds. I would return to the rescue in your circs.

CQ · 25/09/2014 13:27

How long have you had her? I think if the rescue people said her behaviour sounds extreme, then you would be justified in taking her back. The behaviourist's opinion is also telling.

There is no pleasure in owning a dog you can't trust, and it sounds as if she is going to be a big girl.

You have to put your family's safety and your peace of mind first.

It may be worth seriously discussing having her PTS rather than passed round a succession of failed rescues, as her behaviour will only deteriorate as she gets more confused and stressed. Sadly, we can't save them all.

Please don't beat yourself up about this, you sound lovely and I know you only want what's best for your DS. Thanks

lavendersun · 25/09/2014 13:28

Poor you. I would never allow my children to be at risk and so would agree with returning the puppy which is only going to get bigger and stronger. It is much better to admit a mistake now than become a statistic later on.

Like Twitter, our dog came from a well researched breeder as I knew I would have a baby in the house before long when I got her. They are a year apart (dog one year older) and are the best of friends, now 9 & 8. That is what you want, something your son can be with without worry.

Great that you have thought it through so well. I would look for a family friendly breed.

ellenjames · 25/09/2014 13:32

I surprised you found a rescue that would rehome a dog with you as you have children. No where near me would, this was the reason why we ended up getting our now 5 year old lab from a breeder. We did our research on child friendly breeds etc etc and decided on a lab.
I would hate to give up but I think if we had been in your position I would seriously consider returning her. When we got our puppy dcs were 10 months, 3 and 4 so we would have had a heartbreaking decision to make, I don't envy you that and wish u all the best Thanks

hairypaws · 25/09/2014 13:32

Won't help but lots of pups can be wild with their teeth. we were ripped to shreds by our girl and I reached the end of my tether and really thought I couldn't cope much longer but then she calmed down. by 6 months she was a gorgeous calm girl but it was hard going until then.

TheHoundsBitch · 25/09/2014 13:40

Thanks for all the responses :)
DS is 5, he's generally brilliant with dogs and very confident but he's very wary of dpup. (Another worry is that she causes him to be afraid of dogs generally)
We've had dpup for a week. The trainer said that we should make a very loud 'ouch' noise when she bites and turn away from her and if she doesn't stop biting clap hands together loudly. She says that all the reward based training we are doing is great (we've been using kikopup methods) and dpup is responding really well to all the things we do want her to do, but not at all to stuff we don't want her to do (biting, getting on the couch).
It's making me sadder that you are all agreeing she should go back :( I really don't feel ready to give up on her. I was thinking of giving her a few more days, but I don't know.

OP posts:
TheHoundsBitch · 25/09/2014 13:42

We actually found a lot of rescues willing to home puppies with us when we actually spoke to them. Most do seem to have a no kids policy on the website though.
I've always been very passionate about rescue dogs, I feel like a massive hypocrite now.

OP posts:
WeAreGroot · 25/09/2014 13:45

How old was she when the rescue got her? Is there any chance that she could have been removed from her mum and siblings before 8 weeks old?

I'm asking as when pups are taken away from their mum and littermates too soon their bite inhibition can be very lacking as it's one of the things they really start to learn in the period between weaning and leaving the litter at 8 weeks.

DDog2 was supposedly 7 weeks old when we adopted her but in hindsight we think she was actually around 5 weeks old. She was awful for biting as a puppy, regularly drawing blood on us and DDog1, and it took her far longer than it should have done to learn not to do it. Even as an adult (she's 6.5 years old now) she's got a tendency to be too quick to use her teeth, she doesn't bite but if she gets too excited during play she'll try and grab or nip at our hands.

If your pup is anything like DDog2 I'm not surprised you're struggling, especially with DC, and returning her to the rescue would be completely understandable.

ellenjames · 25/09/2014 13:48

Keep trying with her if you want, I know I would probably cause I would feel too guiltySmile
I must admit I never had issues with biting with ours so can't advise on what works. But do keep us informed on how it all goes x

TheHoundsBitch · 25/09/2014 13:53

The rescue had had her for a week when we took her home, so she was 8 weeks when they got her. The lady who surrendered her to the rescue told them she had dpup for 3 days before that, so that's definitely away from mum at 7.5 weeks, but before that there is no known history. DH and were speculating that she may have been taken away from her mother/ litter mates too early yesterday actually, we also thought that perhaps she has learned to play with hands and feet rather than toys in previous homes.

OP posts:
WeeClype · 25/09/2014 14:03

The puppy stage is awful, when we got our Gsd the biting was unreal. My DS who was 5 at the time used to jump from couch to couch as he was that scared of the puppy teeth and would do anything to avoid being on the floor. I tried every technique and nothing worked, she just grew out of it.....then the teenage years started lol

needastrongone · 25/09/2014 14:08

Which rescue did you get the puppy from?

Was the behaviourist APDT qualified? What specific advice were your given? What qualifications did the trainer that came to see you have?

Have you tried 'time out' rather than standing still?

Biting is normal puppy behaviour. It can be extreme.

I'll pop back in a bit, hang on!!

needastrongone · 25/09/2014 14:15

Biting is a normal puppy behaviour. Puppies investigate the world through their mouths. If it is within reach, it will probably be picked up and chewed! If it is exciting and moves fast it will definitely get bitten. Dogs play by using their mouths because they don’t have hands.

Puppies need to bite and they need to play. What she is doing is simply trying to elicit play. Play is by far the best way to bond with your pup and is a great way to reward him during training.

Use tug toys that he can bite. Old knotted towels or a favourite toy with string attached. Unwanted dressing gown cords are ideal. You need to encourage him to bite one end of the toy whilst you hold the other end. Then you can have a great game together without getting bitten.

Ensure your tug toys are long enough and soft enough for your puppy to happily bite. Your toy should touch the floor whilst you are holding the other end. This allows you to animate the toy and keep the game low to the ground and not encourage jumping up. It also puts distance between teeth and hands.

Keep these interactive toys out of your pups reach whilst they are not being played with. It will keep them more novel which means the pup is more likely to want to bite and play with them when given the opportunity. Plant toys around the house and garden (out of puppies reach) so you have them easily accessible and as much as possible, take the game outside.

Rotate chew items that you leave on the floor to also keep them interesting.

Do not play with your puppy unless you have a toy for him to grab. Don't let anyone in the house roughhouse with him or roll about on the floor with him.

Start by animating the toy on the floor and saying 'getit' every time your pup grabs the toy. You hold on to the toy and let him grab it and shake it. Let go of the toy sometimes so that puppy is encouraged to come back to you to get you to start the game again.

Also teach a word for letting go. To do this you simply stop the game by putting a finger in pup's collar and keeping hold of the toy, release the pressure on the toy so that it becomes boring. As soon as pup lets go say 'thank you' and immediately invite him to grab it again with a 'getit'. He will quickly learn to let go when you stop playing in order for the game to start again and eventually the word 'thankyou' (or your word of choice) will become his cue to let go.

Once your pup is getting the idea of the game then you can start to add in a 'sit' 'are you ready' before the 'getit' and before you know it you have a dog sitting and waiting patiently for the game to start.

Some puppies get over excited, this is when time out will work.

I am not sure how a behaviourist can assess your dog without seeing it in person. And your trainer needs to be fully qualified. Clapping loudly would only serve to frighten in my opinion.

Please don't put a 9/10 week old puppy to sleep for pity's sake.

Dharmalovesdraco · 25/09/2014 14:19

I cried actual tears because of my puppy's biting, I lost count of the number of tops that had to be binned because of teeth holes, he bit the kids too and at some point made us all bleed. I was at the end of my tether completely it was awful, we did all of what you do including the high pitched yelp and turning away. We also removed ourselves from the room after saying 'no bite' only for 10 seconds or so before going back in, every time he'd bite, we'd leave. I have no idea when things started to change but it did, and we couldn't be without him now.
The biting with O was nearly always a result of playing, and it's worth remembering that this is how puppies play with their litter mates, he's only doing what puppies do, which I appreciate is cold comfort at the moment. He will grow out of it x

needastrongone · 25/09/2014 14:20

Also, kids are by definition, exciting to puppies. They move fast and make loud noises, which only serves to excite them further. A young puppy can be very easily over stimulated and then become hyper.

All puppies have mad moments, promise Smile

I am not flaming you, but there's a lot more that you can do with correct guidance and support. It's hard work though so you need to consider your circumstances and the practicalities of giving that commitment to the puppy.

They calm down a lot even by 16 weeks, if it helps.

I would seriously want to know the trainers qualifications and how a behaviourist can assess via a telephone conversation. Both need to be members of ADPT or similar.

Dharmalovesdraco · 25/09/2014 14:21

needs post is brilliant advice!

insanityscratching · 25/09/2014 14:39

I remember getting really fed up of Eric's nipping when he was a puppy. It was worst at around 14 weeks but now he never puts his teeth on anyone. I'd say it's early days yet and Needs has great advice. FWIW Eric used to get the occasional time out (behind the gate and ignored) for nipping dd because yelping used to excite him and dd needed to see that there was a consequence for him biting her. He's 9 months old now and they are the best of friends. Eric wouldn't dream of nipping her and dd isn't in the least bit scared of him.

LoonytoadQuack · 25/09/2014 14:47

There are loads of FB groups around similar to the one Needsastrongone quoted from. Might be worth asking on there.

WookieCookiee · 25/09/2014 14:51

yes needs has good advice. Our puppy was a shark, regularly drew blood but not on purpose, their teeth are like little needles - we were dressed in rags.
I cried as well! He did learn and he did calm down. DSs kept out hands etc out of his way. He still mouths - he's a flatcoat they are very licky/mouthy - but very gently (unless it's DP's ears which he like to give a little nip).
It is hard work at first with a puppy!

MamaDoGood · 25/09/2014 14:55

My rescue dog was the same.
Poor DS1 got the brunt of it as he is very confident with dogs and puppy see him as his puppy mate.
Cue lots of crying from me, lots of holes in clothes and slippers but, we made it! After around 2 months puppy got over it and is now the most wonderful dog you could imagine.
He's currently sleeping on my shoulderSmile

needastrongone · 25/09/2014 14:58

Yes, sorry. I take not credit for the advice, it's from Dog Training Advice and Support, a Facebook group, run by Sally Bradbury, as respected and positive dog trainer. If you ask to join, you can post your questions.

I am trying to work, do a few domestic chores and also keep a 10 month old working cocker happy, who is on full rest due to a broken leg (he's having a kong at the minute!!) I didn't get back to the thread as soon as I thought Smile

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