advice on a faulty puppy, please

(17 Posts)
tabulahrasa Wed 31-Jul-13 12:29:40

I'm glad everything's going well smile

I think when it comes to buying a pet, you don't take anything on trust and if someone expects you to then that indicates straight away that there's an issue, even if they are a friend.

Greydog Wed 31-Jul-13 12:19:31

Hello, all, just to let you know pup has had his eye op, and is home and seems OK. He's eating and playing gently with a new toy, and will be back at the vets for a check up later. Happy - the sad thing is "never trust a friend when money is involved" I feel very let down, but so long as pup gets on ok - we move on!

happygardening Sat 27-Jul-13 08:38:10

We've always purchased puppies from "reputable" breeders; ones who have a no questions asked take them back policy. All have showed us hip scores eye tests etc of the parents and explained what it means before a puppy was chosen, one told me the dogs marking would possibly effect it's ability to win a top level (Crufts) he looks slightly lopsided (it's an optical illusion) but we weren't buying a show dog, another dog was found at 12 weeks to only have one testicle descended and the breeder instantly offered to take him back and give us pick of the next litter and when we declined pay for the operation again we refused and we were told that our current youngest dog was unlikely to be successful in the show ring because he was probably going to be big (he is) and the very experienced breeder also said slightly the wrong shape although she said this was obviously speculation at this age but apparently someone definitely purchasing a show dog would not take the chance. Pedigree papers with full stories ie their various successes of parents grand parents uncle's etc in the show ring and even pictures have also always been provided. On the other hand a friend purchased a puppy from a very reputable breeder/judge the puppy within a few months developed a breed specific congenital disorder the puppy was eventually put down at 12 months old on the vets advise as it was so serious the breeder couldn't give a toss frankly. I spent many years with horses buyers are always advised caveat emptor it would seem this also very much applies to dogs as well.
OP my husband used to work for himself he never worked for "friends" from other people's experiences it frequently ends in tears.
I do hope your dog makes a full recovery from his op and brings you many years of happiness.

Greydog Fri 26-Jul-13 12:35:22

Thanks, everyone for all your help. I think the saddest thing (apart from poor pup, who is adorable!) is that it came from a trusted friend and breeder, so we believed them. the eye problem is a hereditary thing, and foolishly we believed the breeder (as I said it some one we've known for a long time, so as far as we knew there would be no reason to doubt them when they told us all test on parents OK, and certificates on way) It seems that when it comes to making money, and being "economical" with the truth, then nothing stands in the way. Pups op isn't for some while - he's booked in - and will let you know how it goes.

Frettchen Thu 25-Jul-13 14:53:09

Surely there's a risk when getting any animal that there will be things wrong with them throughout their life? It's unfortunate for you that your pup's going through this (and my heart massively goes out to the poor pup) but I don't think it's the breeder's responsibility to pay for it. As far as I can see, it's your responsibility to make sure you've asked to see any health checks they've had done on the parents, and once you've taken the pup it's your responsibility to care for it medically. (Which you've said you are doing; so I'm not having a go.)

IMO your puppy should be a treasured pet first and a show dog as a fortunate second, not a dog bought specifically to show. That's just not a very realistic way to enter into puppy purchasing. I'm hoping my new pup shows an aptitude for agility as it's something I would love to do, but if he's not interested then that's ok; he's still my pet dog. Coats change as they're growing; it's impossible to mark a show-winner at that young an age, As for the eyes; it sounds like a bit of horrid, really bad luck. But it's something that could happen to any pet owner; regardless of where their pup came from.

Hope pup's op goes well, and that you have many wonderful times with him, even if he's not bringing in all the trophies.

A couple of points.

As others have said, did you ask about health testing of the parents and did you see their certificates of relevant testing before purchasing the pup? If you didn't, and solely relied on the reputation of the breeder, then your money has been wasted.

Daisy is right to say that a breeder cannot guarantee the health of their dog but unfortunately many breeders do give the impression that their dogs will be healthy.

Is the cataract problem a known issue in your breed? Is the breed one of the High Risk ones?

More generally, if you think the breeder has withheld paperwork that should have been supplied or misled you - I would report to Kennel Club, especially if they are an Assured Breeder, and breed society - they should know about this. It may be worth checking also with Trading Standards - they do investigate problems with dog breeders and for all you know, this may not be the first complaint. Depending on the number of bitches, they may also be licensed by the local authority -again, worth checking and reporting.

Lastly, do report your problems to Puppy Watch - they have a massive database of breeders/problems and believe me, there are some really eye opening and very sad cases of poor care and dreadful health problems from breeders with supposedly good reputations. A few Crufts rosettes do not tell the whole story.

Also - I strongly recommend a look at Dog Breed Health - this is a superb website which gives detailed information about the genetic issues for all the main dog breeds, including a coefficient of inbreeding, what diseases to watch out for, what tests, and links to lots of lovely ongoing research into dog genetics/disease - it's currently a field with a lot going on.

See here

Perihelion Thu 25-Jul-13 09:53:42

Pup wouldn't have eye certificates, but the parents should have them, and the time for viewing them and other health certificates is before you buy. I think the most that a breeder would offer is to take the dog back, but no refund or help with vet bills. Does your insurance not cover the vet bills?

It is impossible for a breeder to guarantee the health, looks or temperament of a dog. They can strive to ensure the puppies are the best they can breed, but that's all. Did you check all relevant health test results before you bought? If you did, why are you seeking eye certificates now?

Anyway, all health certificates will be recorded at the KC, search for the Dam and Sire and their results will be there for all to see.

As you have the KC registration paperwork, did you not order a copy of his pedigree when you registered as his owner?

What are you hoping the breeder actually does? Takes the dog back?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floralnomad Wed 24-Jul-13 21:51:43

Did the puppy at least come with insurance ? I do sympathise my mum bought a Ragdoll kitten from a very reputable breeder ( won numerous shows ,best in breed for the uk etc) ,the kitten developed major bowel issues requiring surgery the day after we picked him up and although it was no ones fault we rang her to let her know ( as a courtesy) and she couldn't extract herself fast enough and never once called back to see if the kitten had even survived the operations . Nasty ,nasty woman , she's still in business and still selling kittens (11 yrs on) and probably still conning potential buyers into thinking she cares about her cats and where they go . Some people don't deserve to have animals . Good luck with your puppy ,I'm sure it will bring you lots of pleasure .

Greydog Wed 24-Jul-13 21:14:55

The puppy stays. But the breeder has previously been trustworthy, and known to us for some while, now they won't even meet half way. they have gone into business with a new partner. It's just they have promised something that won't ever happen, and because of their previous good record, there was no reason not to trust them. So, they've traded on our goodwill, and let everyone down. the poor pup will have to have an op on his eyes,

tabulahrasa Wed 24-Jul-13 21:02:08

'Morally, I think the answer should be 'no'. A puppy's description and purpose should be to eat, drink, poo, wee and play. Then to poo and wee in the right place and respond to responsible training.'

I kind of agree with you there, I mean I can kind of understand it if you're heavily invested in showing and keeping this dog means that all your plans are on hold because you can't have another one with this one it'd be a big blow...but if you were that into showing then surely you'd have picked a breeder so carefully that there wouldn't be an issue as you'd already be involved in that arena.

If it's a first time thing, then, well, you should really want a dog more than you want to pursue a hobby with it - I mean I quite fancied trying agility with this dog, that's one of the reasons I picked the breed I did, but he developed a joint problem that means there's no way he's up to it...I'll just have to not do that with him. I'm a bit disappointed, but hey ho, he might have been rubbish at it anyway - he's still fulfilling the pet dog role.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lougle Wed 24-Jul-13 20:48:32

Poor puppy sad

Morally, I think the answer should be 'no'. A puppy's description and purpose should be to eat, drink, poo, wee and play. Then to poo and wee in the right place and respond to responsible training.

Legally, you probably can pursue it.

tabulahrasa Wed 24-Jul-13 20:21:56

The markings are neither here nor there really, you can't tell what a dog is going to do as it matures, they can make an educated guess, but things like colouration just change so much that it's not really worth much. You can't really sell a puppy as being a show dog as there is no way of telling whether something that appears to meet breed standards at 8 weeks old might not change as they grow...I mean there are some obvious things with some breeds that are definitely out of standard or you can tell are going to be, but others not so much, it really is just luck sometimes.

Pedigree papers - well a good breeder would have supplied them, but you can order them from the kennel club, you'd have been offered them at a special offer rate when you registered him in your name.

His eyes...it depends on whether there was something there that should have been noticed prior to selling him to you and whether he was advertised as having had checks or the parents having had tests that haven't been done. Again a good breeder should be concerned and would feel responsible and try to make the situation better somehow, but if it's a completely unforeseen problem that developed after leaving them, they really don't have an obligation to.

VivaLeBeaver Wed 24-Jul-13 17:18:23

Is it a type of cataract that if the parents had been PRA tested it would have been picked up? If so had the breeder said the parents were PRA tested?

If so I'd have thought you'd have a good case.

Greydog Wed 24-Jul-13 17:16:07

That sounds really cold, but it's not meant to be. So - this is about a dog bought from a (supposedly) reputable breeder. Bought to show - the breeder knew that. There are two things wrong. The markings the pup needs as a show dog have faded, but much worse than that the poor little thing has developed cataracts in one eye. He has his kennel club registration, but no pedigree papers, and no eye certificates. Despite asking they've never been recieved. the breeder has been completely unhelpful, won't pay anything towards the vets bills, won't even discuss any sort of repayment. the poor pup will never be a show dog, which is why he was bought in the first place, and it would seem that the breeder is not all they're cracked up to be - so - any advice? is there any comeback under the sale of goods (as in not fit for purpose?) Thanks, O wise dog people!

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