Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency

(18 Posts)
Lonecatwithkitten Tue 13-Nov-12 20:57:36

Cardiac cases - we often have better options for them than human medicine. Not uncommon for 'greyhound' vets to be off piste.

bubble2bubble Tue 13-Nov-12 20:47:23

Lonecat - didn't actually know that. A local greyhound vet here was known for using a lot of human medicines, which I thought was just ethically contirversial rather than illegal. Then again as he seemed to deal with a lot of cardiac cases it probably came under " exhausting all veterinary options" I guess.

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 20:09:24

Hmm, in that case I'm not certain why the antibiotics.

bubble that's interesting!

Lonecatwithkitten Tue 13-Nov-12 20:00:08

Bubble unfortunately it is illegal under veterinary medicines legislation to use human medicines unless we have exhausted all the veterinary options. Hence why we don't regular use human generics.

Lonecatwithkitten Tue 13-Nov-12 19:58:21

I am a vet we usually use oxytetracycline or metronidazole for SIBO for months sometimes even the rest of the dog's life.

bubble2bubble Tue 13-Nov-12 19:56:15

I don't know if this will help but Dd2 is pancreatic insufficient - She takes a product called Creon 10000 which is pancreatin 150mg and from a very quick google it looks to be the same as the products they prescribe for dogs but much cheaper. It is not a presciption only product but a P medicine which can actually be bought in pharmacies.
I am not suggesting running off to give human medicines to dogs without advice but I do know that vets often charge a lot more for drugs when often it is the same thing that humans take so it may be worth investigating.
Creon 10000 is granules which come inside easily opened capsules which can be sprinkled on food if the capsules are not swallowed whole, and is derived from pigs' pancreas.

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 19:51:35

tipsy his poo stinks! REALLY strongly.

lonecat are you a vet? I have seen SIBO mentioned in conjunction with EPI. Vet has prescribed noroclav 500mg, 2 a day for 6 days. I'm assuming that's to cover in case it is bacterial

Lonecatwithkitten Tue 13-Nov-12 19:29:23

Usually we test folate, cobalamin and TLi (for EPI) all together. Abnormal folate and cobalamin suggest small intestinal bacterial overgrowth which can give the same symptoms as EPI without weight loss.

tipsycat Tue 13-Nov-12 19:25:37

If the new diet doesn't work, then blood tests sound like a good idea. We tried changing the food while we waited for the blood tests, but it made no difference. If the pancreas isn't producing the enzymes needed to digest food, then no diet is going to make a difference. How does his poo smell? Prior to treatment, Barney's poo didn't smell like poo! It was more bland, not offensive, as it was just food which hadn't been digested properly. My vizsler is doing well on the powdered enzymes, unfortunately he'll need them for life.

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 16:22:09

Vet hasn't tested for anything. I think because all along we just thought it was Colitis, I just mentioned the other symptoms in passing yesterday and he picked up on the possibility of EPI.

Cuebill Tue 13-Nov-12 15:39:45

EPI dogs tend to lose masses of weight (but I am no vet so take what I say with caution!!!)

Has your vet tested his cobalamin (B12) levels that can make a huge difference to dogs with dodgy tums.

I feed pigs pancreas dogs with EPI which is cheaper than enzymes but very hard to get hold off nowadays. For some dogs this works a treat but you do have to play around with the amount etc to get the best results.

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 15:35:09

VERY lively and energetic. The last few days he's a small bit quieter but that's cause of the flare up but in general he's fine in himself

tipsycat Tue 13-Nov-12 15:04:09

Mine went below 20kg, should be around 25kg. Blood tests took about 3-4 days. Is he lively and energetic?

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 15:00:40

I know the weight loss is the main issue which is why it's still a bit unsure. He had a bout of colitis 2/3 months ago and he did go quite thin but never to the extent he looked like he was starving. And he did put the weight back on. He's currently 24kg which is about right I think.

His poo is identical to a cow pat!!

tipsycat Tue 13-Nov-12 14:30:27

Very expensive!!!

Over £100 for 250 grams. Used up in less than a month. Have managed to find them online for £60ish now. Started on half a teaspoon for every 100 grams of food. Now been increased to one teaspoon per 100 grams of food. And he's currently having around 500 grams of food per day.

If your dog hasn't lost weight, I doubt it'll be EPI. Basically, they can't digest food, so it's going straight through without anything being absorbed. Does his poo look like a cow pat?

He's much better already, and very lively again, but costing us an absolute fortune as he's not insured.

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 14:13:54

Thanks tipsy.

Bailey doesn't actually have much of a problem with his weight which is the reason the vet has adopted a wait and see approach as opposed to getting the bloods done now.

Vet did mention the Royal Canin food too as they do a specific puppy one but he said if the Hills has worked before we'd be better to go straight on that.

Do you mind me asking if the enzymes are expensive? We have him insured but I'm just curious.

tipsycat Tue 13-Nov-12 14:05:51

Yes, my 12 month old Hungarian Vizsler has it. He was diagnosed about a month ago. He'd lost loads of weight, funny colour/consistency of poo, starvingly hungry, eating poo.

Vet did blood tests, and he's now on the powdered enzymes and royal canin prescription diet. He has gained some weight, but has more to go. His poo has improved and he's no longer eating it.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need any advice.

HelgatheHairy Tue 13-Nov-12 13:53:55

Had Bailey (6.5 month Golden Retriever) to the vet again yesterday as he was having a flare up of colitis. It hadn't gotten really bad but I wasn't sure what to do for the best. Anyway the vet put him on Hills prescription I/d food (the ONLY food that he has solid poo on) and mentioned the above exocrine pancreatic insufficiency as a possible reason for the colitis due to some of his other symptoms (constant farting, very loud tummy gurgling, eating poo, eating everything non edible)

He said to try him on the Hills, if his poo solids up great, if not he'll do a blood test for EPI. Came home and googled EPI and it sounds EXACTLY like Bailey. I understand treatment is an enzyme sprinkled onto his food.

Does anyone have a dog with it and how is it to handle?

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