Weird problem between dog and DS (sorry long)

[MrsZoidberg]

We have a very scared GSD boy. We got him at 10mths from a GSDrescue. No socialisation, no human contact, hadn't seen a collar type thing.

The timing of getting him was appaling but the rescue basically said it was on that day or not at all (we drove across country to get him) Ds had to go away for a week 5 days after getting him, at a time when DDog still wouldn't let us touch him and I believe this is why they haven't bonded as tightly as he is with DH & I. Rescue also had an interesting method of getting DDog to accept fuss, the fosterer would hold his bottom jaw whilst strangers stroked him. I flatly refused to use this method.

We had a behaviourist in to deal with the issues 4 months after we got him, (DDog nipped DS becuase he accidently trod on him) and they were mostly resolved. DDog started off just tolerating DS, but soon started accepting fuss from him, and now will happily snooze on his knee.

So far so good.

Fast forward 2.5 yrs. Every so often, DDog will start barking at DS, and has gone so far as to lunge at him. Last night, DS and I sat opposite ends of sofa, Ddog lying between us accepting fuss from both of us, then suddenly started growling at DS. The only change I could see was DS had stopped stroking him and started chewing some gum. I stood up, told DDog to get off (nicely) which he did, and all ok again. I should say, when DS is sitting down, DDog frequently approaches him for attention

A little about us. DS is 15 and over 6 foot, all our other dogs, past and present, have worshipped him, as do all other animals he encounters. He has had dogs all his life and knows how to behave around them. They do as he asks immediately, but when DH or I ask, they think about it and may do it. He does play a little rough with them (they're all big dogs) but they must like it as they beg for more (as opposed to me who will gently stroke them or scratch their ears.). He has been at home full time for the past 2.5 years as he has CFS, but is active most of the time (i.e. not bedridden).

We have another building we use as an office and school room (I home educate him, and we run 2 businesses). We spend all morning in there, go back to the house for lunch, and may spend the afternoon in the office. If DS goes back to the house, DDog may act aggressively unless I go back too. If I'm out of the house and DS comes downstairs DDog may react. If DS is sitting still DDog will go and ask for cuddles. The growl last night has been the only sign of any issue on the sofa. If DS is on the floor, DDog will happily nudge him for cuddles, lie down with him etc.

If I'm going out DS comes with me, if I go to the Office DS generally comes with me. etc. So one thought is DDog is jealous. Another thought is DDog hasn't been neutered (Behaviourist said not to until he was at least 2 as it was only the testosterone that was keeping him sane - we then never got around to it) DS is going through puberty - is this too many male pheromones?

My gut feeling is that DDog won't progress this any further than the barking, but I would prefer to put a stop to it all together. The major annoyance is that DDog craves attention, DS has all the time and inclination to give attention, and the bloody dog is too stupid to realise.

Sorry for the long post, I didn't want to drip feed, and I wanted to make sure our living style was laid out in case that is an issue. Any advice or thoughts gratefully received.

[MrsZoidberg]

Sorry, just reread my (too long) post and realised that one thing hasn't come across very well.

This is occassional. Today DDog is absolutely fine with DS. We can have it every day for a week, or we can go months with little sign of it. It can happen in the morning, but not in the afternoon, etc. And I just wish I could work out some sort of pattern / trigger.

[GoblersKnob]

I certainly wouldn't consider neutering with such a nervous dog (not sure if you were from your post, sorry), I thibk the nipping thing is unrelated and understandable when the dog has been stepped on.

seeing as you have no idea of the dogs past, my gut reaction is that something your ds is doing is triggering a fear response in the dog, the problem is that it could be something tiny, almost inperceivable to us. Keepin a very detailed diary might help.

Other than fuss and attention, how much life good things for the dog come from ds? Walks, food, games treats? This might be an area that would help the dog see ds in a different light, though it is not clear cut as like you say, most of the time they are fine together, however if may increase the bond between them.

If your ds standing is possibly a trigger could ds stand at a distance the dog considers safe (ie does not provoke a response) and throw pieces of something delicious (hot dog, chicken) to the dog, over lots of sessions, decrease the distance, this may help change the dogs perception of ds.

[GoblersKnob]

Sorry for the crap spelling, am eating soup

[MrsZoidberg]

I'm impressed ! I can barely eat a sandwich whilst MNing

We would only consider neutering if we were reasonably confident it would help him with his anxieties. I fear that leaving him at a place he is petrified of, would destroy his trust in me, added to the pain etc I would worry it would undo all the good we've done. The Vet though, has talked through various strategies to reduce the trauma as much as possible if we do decide to do it. I have lovely vets

We do know some of his past. He was dumped at Battersea by the breeder with 3 siblings. We suspect that his only human interaction was with the breeder up to this point. We also suspect he was kept somewhere dark as he shows issues with eyesight which is improving. We also have a history of what happened after they were saved from being PTS by the GSD rescue.

Due to Ds's health, there are limits to what he can do. He does take the dogs out (we have our own field which DS and the dogs can potter around at their own speed), he plays with them (more than the rest of us), and does give them treats. DDog will follow any command given by DS, especially if it involves a treat . He can't feed them as the sound of kibble on the metal bowl hurts his head (part of the CFS). He does occassionally take the bowls from me and puts them down.

Your last paragraph hit me. "If your ds standing is the trigger" I hadn't really thought of it that way. Apart from the growl last night, this only happens when DS is stood up, but also only when entering the room. If DS is already in the room it's fine. Does that make sense? I've just asked DS and he agrees, it's only on entering the room that DDog barks etc.

[GoblersKnob]

Wrt the neutering, I am almost certain it would make his anxieties worse, as the behaviourist said it will take away his testosterone, which at the moment will be giving him confidence.

Please forgive my I have no idea what CFS is, does it make your ds move oddly at all?

I really would try what I suggested above if it is possible, with the throwing of high value food. Maybe moving onto doorways and entering rooms at a later date but using the same method. It should help to build the dogs confidence over something he is obviously uncomfortable with.

Another thing with the entering rooms, could you try him talking in a happy voice both before and as he enters the room, so he doesn't appear without warning?

[RedwingWinter]

MrsZ, I am very impressed at the way you have taken on the scared GSD and given it (and your other dogs) a good life.

One of my dogs, although nothing like as bad as yours when he arrived, sometimes growls for no apparent reason and we've worked out it's to do with the way we look at him - a certain gaze that frightens him (and we might just be looking at the floor next to him not thinking about him at all, but it scares him).

I think Goblers gave you good advice. The only thing I'd add is that if the happy voice doesn't work, ignoring is an alternative to try (not looking at or talking to or even directly facing the dog when coming into the room).

[MrsZoidberg]

Goblers - CFS = Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. He is tired all the time, and has a headache constantly, loads of other things as well. He looks and acts normally - just a little less teenagery than normal i.e. he talks to me, smiles, laughs and rarely grunts

Redwing, Thank You! All 3 are rescues and each have their issues, but we adore them anyway.

DDog is probably the best behaved & most obedient dog I have ever known. He and his litter mates look very much like my old boy, who we lost a few months before seeing this one. As soon as DH saw the pictures on the internet, I knew this special boy was coming to live with us. I'm pretty certain he is related to my old boy in some way as his mannerisms are similar as well. So what breaks my heart most is knowing that if the bastarding breeder had treated him right, he would probably have had the same gentle nature as my old boy.

If DS has to come into the house without me, he does use the throwing treats trick, but I'll get him to try talking too.

The not looking at DDog came to me this morning funnily enough. As DDog is very exicitable when I come into the room, I ignore him (he still jumps up and mouths me when too excited and I've found this defuses the situation). I watched DS walk up to the dog gate and immediately look down at the dogs and fuss them. - Today is a good day where DDog seems quite calm with DS - so I'll ask DS not to look at or talk to them as he comes in to see if this helps.

Thanks for the advice so far.

[JaxTellerIsMyFriend]

maybe go back to basics. 4 feet on the floor, dog being calm before fuss and ignore when entering a room.

Can you get DS to feed the dog? Maybe your son towering over the dog or looking directly at the dog is scaring him.

Sorry, didnt want to read and run. Good luck Mrs Z.

[MrsZoidberg]

Thanks Jax, I did wonder if it was a "towering" issue. I'm the shortest and he loves me, DH is next and he's loved, DS is Hoooge and very useful to take shopping as he can reach all the high shelves for me

Just to be typical, DDog has spent the day asking for cuddles from DS, sat on the sofa with him etc.

[feesh]

If your son was chewing gum when the sofa incident occurred, could it be that the dog thought he had food and that's what triggered the barking?

We had another dog stay with us last week. Both dogs were settled. Our dog woke up and started chewing her foot a bit. 2nd dog thought she was eaton something and started growling at her (they were still getting to know eachother so there were a few food guarding issues between them).

Just a thought.

[feesh]

Sorry for spelling, phone's fault!

[MrsZoidberg]

Hi Feesh, Luckily food guarding is one issue we don't have with him, in fact, if he thought DS was eating he would have been acting quite the opposite, and would have become DS's best friend in the world