so I went to see some pups today and it was awful :-(

[AllergicToNutters]

They were living in rank cages outside on concrete floors. The smell was horrid. There was Dad and a Portuguese pointer in a cage, Mum was sooo skinny and looked as if she had been bred and bred. The pups looked healthy enough but the one remaining pup ( so I had no choice in selecting one for us) was shaking and whimpering. He was absolutely beautiful but I didn't take him. I felt awful. The pups were kept in a shed away from the other dogs and Mum. They were clearly not 'indoor' dogs. Very sad and don;t know what I can do.....

[ScruffyTerrier]

I'd report them; that sounds deplorable. I don't live in the UK so I'm not sure who to refer you to but I'm sure someone will be along in a moment with more specific info. Good for you for walking away.

[AllergicToNutters]

it was hard to walk away as the pup was so gorgeous but I knew it was best

[SecretNutellaFix]

Report to the RSPCA.

Admittedly they can be a bit shit with some aspects of their work, but if they don't know about the puppy farms, they can't shut the bastards down.

Puppy farms are horrendous- I sometimes go on to Rescue websites and see so many ex breeders up for re-homing that have never been in a house, never been socialised, run and hide from strangers, have congenital problems, etc.

The more that get closed, and the people who run them get prosecuted for causing suffering to animals the better.

[AllergicToNutters]

secretNjtellaFix - I will ring them tomorrow. Some of the pups looked quite happy, but the one left over for us was shaking. He looked chunky and his coat was OK but the mum was sooooo skinny - she didn't even look like a lab . The Pointer had a lump under the skin on his shoulder. that cannot be right.

[Flatbread]

I think the government should legislate that pups cannot be sold, and any money exchanging hands must be strictly to cover the cost of vaccinations and microchipping.

This would be the most effective way of shutting down puppy farms. And breeders who supposedly do it for love of their 'breed' can continue doing so for love.

This would also put paid to the obsession of ordinary families buying pedigree dogs for pets, which will be positive for the whole dog species in the long run.

[AllergicToNutters]

out of curiousity why shouldn;t ordinary families buy pedigree dogs? We are an ordinary family???

[SecretNutellaFix]

Pedigree dogs, fine- if you know the breed and like the breed and know what you will be getting.

Pedigree means bred within the same breed.

A labradoodle is not a pedigree animal. It is a crossbreed.
A sprocker is not a pedigree animal. It is a crossbreed.
A labrador/ pointer cross is a crossbreed. Mum was probably a crossbreed if she didn't actually look like a lab.

How much were they asking for the pups anyhow?

[Flatbread]

Controversial, perhaps, but I think that while working animals, such as sheepdogs in a farm need to have certain traits bred in them. Why would an ordinary family need a specific breed for ordinary activities like walking, cuddling, protecting the family etc.? Any well socialised dog can do these things.

Selective breeding is not nature's way of procreation and there are loads of long-term genetic issues with pedigree dogs. We don't allow anything like this type of breeding in human family members. Why do we want it in our canine family members?

See, for example, this documentary topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/#disqus_thread

[AllergicToNutters]

she was charging £550 per puppy which seems just the lower side of average around here.

[daisydotandgertie]

Allergic - I'm sorry it was so awful today. Heartbreaking and so very hard to walk away. But I am so glad you did. It was exactly the right thing to do.

I know there are a lot of people on here who are vehemently anti breeding, and just as vocal about anyone who seeks a pedigree dog. I've seen posted time and time again that all breeding should be banned until all rescues in the land are empty. I think, as with everything, there has to be a balance. It's obvious that you can't just stop breeding until rescues are empty; the dog population would become extinct, especially as most rescue dogs neuter as a matter of course. Balance is all, and don't be bullied online about doing what is the right thing for your family.

If you do consider a rescue dog, have a look at [http://www.labradorforums.co.uk/ftopict-95885.html Trump, a 16 ish week old yellow lab puppy]] or [http://www.labradorforums.co.uk/ftopict-96149.html Wander who is apparently a complete sweetie]].

I know your DC were after a yellow lab, but she has such a gorgeous face, I had to link through.

With regard to reporting, refer to your local trading standards and the Kennel Club.

[daisydotandgertie]

And the price is too cheap. It's not what a good breeder would charge for a well bred and brought up pup.

[Slubberdegullion]

How awful AllergictoNutters. Agree with daisy, totally the right thing to do to walk away.

For the future do you have a really long list of questions to ask the breeders over the phone before you go to view the pups? It's much easier to say "thank you for your time but no" over the phone than it is when you have just seen some cute beautiful puppies, especially like today when you probably wanted just to take that poor pup home

For labs the health screening questions are very helpful. Hips, elbows. eyes/optigen. A nice easy way of checking to see if they are trying to ensure the future health of the dogs they are breeding. You have to check the certificates/results when you visit (or iirc you can do it online) but if they've not been done it's a straight forward "no thanks". Lots of other qs to ask but these ones sort the wheat from the chaff pretty quickly from the get-go.

[Methe]

Report them. We went to look at some lurcher pups years and and they were in an awful state :( we reported them to the RSPCA and they were very interested.

[AnEcumenicalMatter]

Report to the Local Authority's environmental health department and Dog Warden (may be within the same department). It sounds like they are breeding multiple litters per year and should be registered with their LA.

It may be worth a call to the RSPCA but I wouldn't rely on them to do anything.

I'd also report to HMRC because, in reality, the only think likely to stop such shitty breeders is to hit them where it properly hurts...the pocket.

You did the right thing in walking away. Everyone who 'rescues' such a pup from people like this just helps to codemn another litter to the same fate. If there's no demand, then they'll stop supplying.

[Flatbread]

Anecu OP can report them, but if people are willing to pay for pups, they will set up shop somewhere else or some one else will replace them.

I must say I am a bit amazed at the hypocrisy in the doghouse section. It is ok to buy selectively bred puppies and pay over £500 for the privilege. But oh, having healthy pups from a natural mating of two dogs, where the pups are cared for in a loving family environment. The horror! How irresponsible! Think of the poor unwanted dogs being killed everyday!

The former is, from a long term perspective, bad for the dog species. The latter is actually making the dog world more resilient.

[midori1999]

OP, what everyone else (except Flatbread) has said.

Flatbread, your ignorance is astounding. I assumed yesterday when you decided to (offensively) mention eugenics that you'd seen that programme. It was largely factually incorrect and in fact, encouraged people to steer away from responsible breeders and instead buy from puppy farms and irresponsible breeders. Considering how much it costs to breed a litter of puppies and rear them, then if puppies were only given away for free, dog breeding would be exclusively for the rich.

Advice on ethics being given out by someone who can't even prevent an unwanted mating now...

[SecretNutellaFix]

flatbread- very often these so called "natural" mating are anything but natural. They are frequently done to sell the current "designer dogs" fad.

I work with an idiot someone who paid £550 for a springer/ cocker spaniel cross from her neighbour whom she constantly moans is a lazy scrounger and that she paid cash because they didn't want it to be tracked. The bitch's 2nd litter in less than a year. Backyard breeders are just as irresponsible as puppy farms, and there does need to be legislation to safeguard the welfare of the animals.

Which can only be done if the relevant authorities are informed.

[EdlessAllenPoe]

flatbread what are you on about?

selective breeding is the only way to avoid genetic disease. that is selective breeding informed by careful health testing and use of bloodlines.

'natural' mating? what, it's natural for a dog to be in season and 'happen' upon a stud dog it won't bite? Whilst its owner does nothing to prevent the creation of another litter of puppies to be sold to pay for the owners carelessness?

there are no 'natural' matings. There are careless ones that shouldn't happen, there are deliberate ones to make the breeder money...and very rarely, there are matings to further the quality of the breed performed under the guidance of conscientious breeders.

[daisydotandgertie]

Hmm. My links are pitiful.

I'll have another go

The beautiful Wander

And

The heavenly Trump

Both of these gorgeous dogs are looking for a lovely home.

[EdlessAllenPoe]

ALLERGIC What an awful experience. Well done for walking, though it is hard, it is the right thing.

next time, what ever kind of dog you want...

1. try local rescue first, They also have puppies.
   
   
2. consider a greyhound! lovely dogs, so many in rescue.
   
   
3. if you really want a pedigree dog, try your local breed rescue rep for that breed (google breed club for that breed)
   
   And cheaper-than-average is a bad sign. conscientious breeders incur high costs.

[yesbutnobut]

Allergic, what a dreadful experience, especially as you were so looking forward to that appointment today . It's astounding that the breeder obviously felt the set-up was acceptable, otherwise you wouldn't have been invited to view (many backyard breeders deliver puppies or never let you meet the mum). You did the right thing walking away but it must have been hard. The advice I had when buying my pup was to try the breed club first - they will have someone who holds the 'puppy register'. You may have to try a few regional breed clubs and be prepared to travel if necessary. The breed club may also have a list of questions to ask before going to visit a breeder - hopefully you can avoid a repeat of today's experience. I also used to spend many hours on the Champdogs website - they promote health tested puppies and there are usually loads of labs on there. Good luck in your search and I'm so sorry about today.

[Flatbread]

Edless. Anyone who believes that selective breeding is superior to natural selection mirrors the arguments used by Hitler for eugenics.

Unless you are breeding for a very specific purpose, e.g., cows that give more milk, there is absolutely no defensible reason to mess with nature. Breeders cannot play god and think that they will get superior outcomes to nature.

I can understand those who say that do not let dogs breed at all till the shelters are empty. I don't fully agree with it, but I can see the validity of their argument.

But the ones who say that professional breeders are the way to go, are promoting eugenics and indirectly incentivising puppy factories, whether they like it or not. I don't think that owners should let their dogs mate with anyone, but certainly natural mating between dogs is better, just as natural mating between humans is better for our species. That does not mean we should all be promiscuous and have babies willynilly.

[cedmonds]

Hi
If you want a pedigree dog that is going to be registered etc you could have a look at the kennel club website as all the registered puppies are on there. I would also advise you to contact the assured breeders. They have to have all the tests up to date and have home checks done by the kennel club.

[ChickensHaveNoLips]

Daisy, the heavenly Trump has me sniggering in to my laptop like a 6 year old.

[RedwingWinter]

That's dreadful, Allergic. You did the right thing walking away.