Wht's the difference between a good backyard breeder and a 'proper' breeder?

[Slubberdegullion]

I have no intention of breeding from my bitch but I'm genuinely interested in the difference between the two, and what makes a true breeder.

Say you have a pedigree bitch, with good parentage/lines and you want a litter from her. You get some books, chat to the breeder you got your dog from, maybe chat to people in the breed club or on a breed specific forum. Then you do all the health checks and they come back clear or with excellent scores. Then you find a sire with good lines and good scores. You find out everything you can about whelping and care/socialisation of the puppies afterwards. You check out your potential puppy buyers thoroughly and you offer lifetime support for that puppy.

I'm sure I've left out loads, but you get the picture. You've ticked all the boxes. And yet (I think) you'd still be called a byb.

How does a byb become a true breeder, and how can a potential puppy buyer tell the difference?

[Slubberdegullion]

Is the reason for wanting the litter in the first place the key?

[vnmum]

i see your point as all breeders classed as proper breeders now had to start somewhere, so were they called BYB at first?

Also some professional breeders have questionable motives and practices tbh and a breeder like you described in your post would be a better person to buy from than a dodgy professional breeder IMO.

I'm not sure if the kennel club has some involvement with making a breeder a professional breeder through registration or something, it's not my forte i'm afraid

[Slubberdegullion]

The KC has got the accredited breeder scheme thing, which I believe is their way of trying to encourage breeders to check all the boxes as it were.

I've read on several different forums though that some puppy farmers are accredited and some people feel the scheme doesn't go far enough.

[SoupDragon]

IIRC, the KC make a point of saying that, even if a breeder is accredited by them, they've not checked them out or can't guarantee anything. Something along those lines. Made it all seem rather pointless IMO.

[Slubberdegullion]

yes Soupy rather pointless indeed. Not much use to the puppy buyer.

[SoupDragon]

Dill came from a kennel club breeder but the most important part was that he was in a family home where the dogs were loved (and his parents were health checked!)


A friend at school has bred two litters of Spoodles. She is thus a BYB I guess but i would also be happy to buy from her.

So, I don't know what the difference is! you could get a BYB who loves the dogs and a proper breeder who is in it for the money and doesn't give a stuff.

[Slubberdegullion]

What's a Spoodle? (springer x poodle?)
Why are so many things being crossed with poodles these days? (somewhat random aside).

Yes I would buy from my breeder again in a flash. I'm pretty sure she is a breeder breeder, but i think if this had been her first ever litter I would have gone with her as I was more than happy that everything that could be done was iyswim.

[SoupDragon]

Spaniel/poodle, in this case it was a Springer.
If its a cocker, then it becomes a Cockerpoo :o

i think they cross with poodles a lot because they don't shed much. or something.

[WhereTheWildThingsWere]

It is mainly that just because your bitch (and I mean this generally, not yours in particular) is good on paper, isn't enough.

Both parents should be 'proven' ie have done very well in the ring, as well as having perfect temperaments and perfect scores on anything medical (if that is applicable for the breed).

And yes you are right about the reason, no-one should be breeding unless they want something from the litter for themselves, ie a puppy to continue their lines.

Most puppies from a good breeder will come with a (something I can't remember the name of) that will forbid you to breed from them. I think if you were to contact a good breeder and say oooh I fancy having a litter, they would be horrified.

It is not just a case of doing a bit of research and putting a nice dog to a nice bitch, you must be improving the bloodine of the breed.

This is something that really, gets my goat, those who think their bitch is lovely and so decide to breed from her, sometimes it is to have another dog who is similar, but the best way yo do that is to go back to the original breeder for another pup.

I sometimes think byb sounds too strong as somehow it implies cruelty when some people are really just deeply misguided, maybe 'hobby breeder' is better, but to be honest still just as much of a mistake imo.

None of this is aimed at you Slubber, it is just a subjuct that makes me see red and get a bit ranty, hence why my reply may be a bit disjointed, sorry.

[WhereTheWildThingsWere]

Oh and this is very interesting on poodle crosses from the original 'creator' of the Labradoodle.

[Slubberdegullion]

Thanks for that Wildy. Yes byb is commonly used as a very derogatory term and I wondered why.

I suppose from the point of view from the puppy buying novice (which I was a year ago) finding a puppy that has show (or working I presume) winning parents is not going to be a deal breaker.

Now I understand why people who want a dog to show or work would be looking for that, but for folk who just want a healthy pet...hmm, not sure (genuinely not sure). Are breed lines genuinely threatened by misguided hobby breeders?

off to read the poodle link

[Slubberdegullion]

interesting article, thanks for that

[WhereTheWildThingsWere]

Yes, but out of any well bred litter only one or two will be suitable to show or work, the rest therefore are 'just' healthy pets.

Plus pounds are overflowing with 'healthy pets'.

Unless you are breeding for the best you can get and know exactly what you are doing, you should leave well alone.

It is not so much to do with keeping breed lines pure as the simple fact that there are way too many puppies being bred, mostly by the wrong people for the wrong reasons. Then these puppies all too often go to the wrong owners and end up as just another statistic.

[Slubberdegullion]

Well I completely agree about pounds being overflowing with healthy pets, that vet programme last week when they PTS a healthy staffie made me very sad.

But (I'm sort of playing devils advocate here) how many of those abandoned dogs have come from well meaning ethical bybs, and how many have come from well, I suppose puppy farmers and ooopses?

I need Valhalla here to tell me rescue dog stats .

[Slubberdegullion]

By your definition Wildy my breeder is a byb as she doesn't show (she'd be livid if you told her that ). And yet she puts considerable time and investment into carrying on her lines.

That and she had done everything and more that was on the check list of what to look out for in a good breeder.

She gave me an absolute grilling as a potential puppy buyer and her support since I have got Elsie has been excellent. She'd have her back in a flash if there was a problem.

But because she doesn't show she shouldn't breed, and I, as an ethical buyer should not have bought my puppy from her, even though I have the most fantastic dog that 'does everything it says on the labrador tin'?

[WhereTheWildThingsWere]

Isn't Elsie from working stock though?

[Slubberdegullion]

No, she has . She has granparents with, is it SCH?, next to their names on the pedigree certificate.

This reminds me of when I was conducting my search and I e-mailed a chap from the KC website. He sent me back this terribly formal e-mail, all headed it was, with all his wins and letters after his name and everything. All very impressive. He had, oh god what is it called, an endorsement??, on his bitches that if I didn't breed from my pup they were one (big) price and if I wanted to breed then they were £400 more.

cor this chap is serious I thought.

I e-mailed him back and asked for the hip and elbow scores of sire and dam

'I don't elbow score' was the reply

(again)

blooming mine field

[JRsandCoffee]

I think it depends on the dog and the breed? We had a star labrador from a "backyard breeder" who was beautiful, well behaved, loving and generally the most admired and coveted hound I've ever known. We've another from a similar background (although I guess more of a proper breeder) who while not the saint of his predcessor is also a lovely person!

Family have also had other dogs from "proper breeders" two of whom were veterinary nightmares and one of which was also pretty neurotic. Equally as many people point out, backyard breeding can produce some monsters! My beautiful JR, bought from a rusty shed on a farm on the basis that I liked the entire litter and every dog and person on the farm has had more "stop on the street offers" than you can shake as stick at. I've been delighted to refuse as I think breeding an obviously sweet yet characterful dog to your vicious bitch to create more saleable puppies is not really an acceptable way to bring dogs into the world - and people did honestly ask me on that basis, and were up front about it.....
Which planet are they from???

[Slubberdegullion]

at the stop on the street offers. How terribly impolite. Good grief, people are really very odd.

[JRsandCoffee]

Indeed, I was slightly floored the first time and honestly, although I'd love to replicate him, the moment has passed if you catch my drift......Which makes the on the street offers even more odd - you'd think they'd check to see the er, equipment was still there?!? Seriously, it has made me very aware of the way that some people go about breeding and I do think it's very wrong - while improving is always a good aspiration to have I think that using a dramatically good trait to try and cancel out the opposing dramatically bad is a shocking way to go!

[Slubberdegullion]

Shocking and bonkers.

How do you go about turning down such a gauche and weirdy offer?

[fruitshootsandheaves]

spoodles, schnoodles, cavoodles, moodles, groodles and roodles

sorry but that did make me

I am going to cross an Akita x Tibetan Spaniel with a Poodle and call it an Atishoodle

[JRsandCoffee]

Slubberdegullion.... "He's a Eunuch" usually does it...... occasionally there is then a brisk exchange of views about the rights and wrongs of depriving the world of his wonderous genes!

[Slubberdegullion]

[Slubberdegullion]

lol JR but they seriously don't have a go for having him neutered do they?

This is worse than strangers copping a feel of your pregnant bump.