Quick advice on why puppies shouldnt leave mum before 8 weeks

(45 Posts)
oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 12:18:27

Hi have named changed for reasons that will become clear.

I was due to buy a puppy from a relative of exhs, we only told them YESTERDAY that we were definately taking it.

I had arranged to pick puppy up when it was due to leave mum.

They messaged me and asked me to collect next week. Puppy will be only just 6 weeks by a day. I messaged them back and said I would not take the puppy at 6 weeks as it was too young to leave mum and that they had only just gone from lapping to food etc.

Exh has sent an aggressive email back basically TELLING me I am taking the pup and the person (his new fiances daughter) will be pissed at me if I dont.

Help

You should walk away immediately and have nothing to do with any of the people involved in this. By buying a puppy from these people, you are perpetuating the poor care and breeding, and future problems which are a headache to dog volunteers like Val, me and others, and the despair of reputable breeders, of whom there are many on MN.

If your ExH is continuing to threaten you, please report to police.

A pup should not leave its mum until a minimum of eight weeks - by leaving earlier, you are likely to have a dog that could be prone to health and socialisation problems later on in life.

If you are set on buying a pup, then get one only from a reputable KC registered breeder.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 12:58:29

Thankyou scuttle I was not set on a pup, we were going to an animal sanctuary to get a rescue but where offered the pup as exh was feeding them at the time, the dog had to have an emergency hysterectomy following birth.

I had had my concerns and originally backed out of taking him and told them so when pups where 2 weeks old. DD was heartbroken so yesterday afternoon I said we would still take him if he wasnt spoken for. He sent message saying fine but we would have to collect next week.

I sent this message to him

Hi I have been told not to take pup at six weeks cause it is too young. Been told not to take it till at least eight week pref ten.

Hes just replied saying

Problem is X has factored your money now and she will be very pissed if you dont take it. Other people are asking her about it loads during the day wanting it for themselves. Sorry for being blunt but I cant tell her a second time that you dont want it.

Hes going to be difficult with me even more now where dd is concerned but I wont be forced to take a puppy too young to leave mum

Elsaz Wed 15-Sep-10 13:00:00

Scuttle is right, walk away. If the daughter is pissed off it's not your problem.

could you pay for it but not pick it up for two weeks?

get a receipt/photo of your specific pup if you do this

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

magnolia74 Wed 15-Sep-10 13:03:56

A puppy learns a huge amount in the weeks it shares with it's mums and siblings, behaviour that will be needed to ensure it has the best possible start in life.
The mum doesn't just feed and let go, she will teach the pup how to behave, play, love etc...
Also staying with it's siblings for at least 8 weeks (I prefer 10!) plays a big part.

To be honest even if the owners now agreed to keep pup longer I wouldn't take it as I would be worried that mum would be seperated from pups regardless sad

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 13:07:49

I have just been told they are doing "her head in"

I have just looked and it was 14.28 yesterday I asked if pup was still available.
So at 11.00 today the owner is reliant on the money and will be "very pissed" if I dont. The puppies are only 5 weeks old!

Elsaz Wed 15-Sep-10 13:11:36

sad more evidence that this person should not be breeding dogs.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 13:12:15

Puppies were born on 11th august so 5 weeks yesterday! So next week when they wanted me to collect it would be 6 weeks and 3 days

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 13:27:21

Butterfly I am not doing, we were looking for a dog anyway as have always had dogs but not for last couple of years, work from home now so ideal to be at home with it. I had told them I wasnt taking it due to age, hence the message from exh

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 13:40:50

does anyone know if it is actual legal to sell a pup at 6 weeks?

Lizcat Wed 15-Sep-10 13:55:44

There are very rare cases where I would advise pups going to their new homes as young as 6 weeks the last occasion was a litter of husky pups who had torn their mothers boobs to shreds - deep ulcers that took 6 weeks to heal- we did this for mums long term health. These pups had been eating solid food for 2 weeks and were very well grown, well socialised pups. I only recommended this to protect mum.
I would feel that anyone who is pressuising you to take a pup at a particular time is not an ideal person to get a pup from.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 14:01:32

The mother is not feeding, she had to have an emergency hysterectomy following birth so they have had to be hand fed till now.

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:07:05

Not illegal to sell them at 6 weeks, but the breeders sound like the kind of people you wouldn't want to be involved with.

What kind of dog is it, OP?

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 14:10:17

Bella I will give you one guess! Based on the fact exh is also getting one and calling it an alcohol name.

I have sent this message to him

My concern is my daughter being upset because it becomes ill or hasnt learnt socialisation skills learnt from mum.

When I asked yesterday if still available I was asking based on picking the pup up on the time we originally said (oct) when the pup was the right age to leave mum. I was not expecting to be picking a 6 week old pup up who has just started lapping!

If you want to be funny with me about it fair do's but Im not prepared for dd to be upset in order to please someone a) i dont know b) only told yesterday afternoon i wanted a pup which is currently 5 weeks old

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 14:11:20

I had already explained concern for the pup in a previous message.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:13:46

Good message. Sorry - I can't guess. I can be extraordinarily thick at times though grin

The main concern is the socialisation, but if the pups are hand reared that may already have been - um - compromised anyway. Depends how much contact the pups have had with mum...

Ripeberry Wed 15-Sep-10 14:14:07

Sounds like he wants your money and they want the pup out of the house angry.

Do you think they will harm it if you don't buy it? Could you not pay for it and say you'll pick it up in another two-three weeks?

Or do you think he will double cross you?

Staffie it has to be.

mamatomany Wed 15-Sep-10 14:17:17

Well at least the dog has had a hysterectomy so they shouldn't have any more puppies doing her head in
I assume this is accidental breeding rather than a pedigree in which case she has a bloody cheek charging and does she realise you will require a receipt for your payment and she will be open to court action if the puppy isn't healthy for it's lifetime ?
In accepting cash it becomes a business transaction and is covered by trading standards.

Clumsymum Wed 15-Sep-10 14:24:44

Oldie

Of course it isn't ideal to have a puppy that young, but it sounds to me like it will be seperated from the mother next week anyway, and sold to anyone who will pay for it. In which case at least you are a very caring person, from the sound of it.

I have taken an orphaned puppy on before now, she was about 5 weeks we think (eyes were still tinged blue). She had no socialisation problems, but we did need to feed her quite carefully.

She would have 2 meat/fish meals, slivers of grilled chicken with boiled rice, or fish with rice (I seem to remember buying fish fingers & taking off the bradcrumb coating !!), and two milk/cereal meals of BOILED milk and weetabix each day, moving onto puppy food gradually after 10 weeks or so.

It can be done, and is likely to lead to you having a VERY devoted dog, cos they are soooo much more reliant on you so early.

In your shoes, if you know the puppy is likely to be dumped with anyone ANYWAY, I'd consider it.

Clumsymum Wed 15-Sep-10 14:26:35

Oh, should have said, as long as you can devote the huge time and effort such a young puppy will take.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 14:27:37

Ripeberry no they wont harm it I dont think, there are 4 other pups and yes you are right on breed

I dont trust enough to send a hundred pounds in post tbh I dont know her at all.

The hysterectomy was emergency not planned, dont know if she has had pups before

I dont know that it was accidental as the father is another pure staffie so Im not convinced.

I have had staffies before, I was going for an older one at a sanctuary. Think this is still best idea.

mamatomany Wed 15-Sep-10 14:31:51

Well if she's breeding for the money I'd be more inclined to offer to take the mother since I guess she has no further use for her
And if she's letting the puppies go at 6 weeks they won't have been vaccinated or checked out by the vet and if one drops dead the owner will be entitled to a refund.

Clumsymum Wed 15-Sep-10 14:31:58

I wouldn't pay £100 for a pup that is that young tho'

If she wants the money, she has to make the effort to ensure it's in a fit state to leave.

I had assumed you were talking about 25 quid for a heinz.

magnolia74 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:44:19

If you are thinking of having the pup at 6 weeks (and I would understand why if they are going to be sold at that age regardless) Then please speak to your vet about how early you can go to puppy socialisation classes.
As the owner of a dog that was only 6 weeks old when I got her sad I speak from experience, even though I socialised her as much as I could she is not very good with other dogs although amazing with kids and adults. (she is a staffie x)

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:44:23

tbh, if it were me, I wouldn't take a pup of that breed unless it came from a tip top home. Which this clearly isn't. I like Staffies, and have defended them many times on here, but they can be problematic with other dogs and it sounds like this pup's canine socialisation (human socialisation comes later) may have been compromised.

Even buyers of pedigree pups from registered breeders have no recourse if the dog later becomes ill. Standard contract terms allow for a refund if a vet check in the few days following purchase identifies a problem.

Good luck whatever you decide, OP.

magnolia74 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:54:33

I agree bella and as much as i love staffies I probably wouldn't get one again as they are just not being bred responsibly sad

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:58:05

Well, fwiw I wouldn't take a pup of that breed unless it had come from a tip top home. And this clearly isn't. And I like Staffies, and have defended them many times on here. But they can be problematic with other dogs and it's the pup's canine socialisation that may be missing here

And even buyers of pedigree pups sold by registered breeders do not have any recourse if the dog becomes Ill later. Standard terms allow you a refund if a vet check within 72 hours of purchase identifies a problem.

Good luck whatever, OP.

mamatomany Wed 15-Sep-10 14:58:44

"Even buyers of pedigree pups from registered breeders have no recourse if the dog later becomes ill. Standard contract terms allow for a refund if a vet check in the few days following purchase identifies a problem."

My understanding was that the breeder had to have a full check from a vet to cover themselves to prove when the pup left them it was in perfect health though, is that not the case ?

midori1999 Wed 15-Sep-10 14:59:03

I wouldn't touch this puppy with a barge pole, tbh. Please, please, please just walk away and don't line this moron's pocket. If she can't sell the pups and they are 'doing her head in' and has to keep them longer, then perhaps she'll think more carefully about breeding in future. If you buy the pup you'll be encouraging her to breed again at some point, even if obviously not from this bitch.

Plus, Staffies can have a condition called L2-HGA and I really doubt the parents of these pups have been tested, so the pups could have it. It is a metabolic disorder and leads to siezures, anxiety attacks, behavioural changes (which can include aggression) and unsteadyness on their feet, amongst other symptoms. In some cases the dog needs to be put to sleep for it's own good. It doesn't matter if the parents seem healthy, it can be carried and no symptoms shown in the parents, but passed on to the puppies.

There is no reason at all for a puppy to leave it's litter at 6 weeks. Even if they can't stay with the bitch, they can stay together. The socialisation they get from that extra two weeks with the litter is vital, IMO, unless the pup is going to an extremely experienced home with others dogs that are extremely well socialised. (guide dog pups leave at 6 weeks, soem trainers like to take their pups at six weeks, but these are not the average pet home and the pups are not going because the breeder can't be arsed!)

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 15:07:04

mamatomany - most reputable breeders will have their vet give the pups a quick check over. I used to be a vet nurse: this takes about 5 minutes. Very few of the big health issues cannot be spotted at this stage: it's like expecting a GP to spot a baby's future arthritis at the 6 week check.

If you buy from a good breeder then the contract will usually stipulate that you're entitled to a refund if your own vet finds a problem within a few days of purchase.

Other than that - nothing. Nobody can guarantee a pup will be healthy. All that you can do is buy from a good breeder who has done all the relevant health screening and whose dogs are clear or have below average results for the condition in question.

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 15:08:03

Sorry - very few of the big health issues can be spotted.

mamatomany Wed 15-Sep-10 15:11:26

Well that is worrying Bella32, might as well stick with a moggy/heinz then.

Bella32 Wed 15-Sep-10 15:13:45

Heinz are, in general, healthier. All the genetic health problems in dogs are caused by inbreeding. Good breeders avoid this but as a huge generalisation mongrels are healthier.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 17:06:16

Midori : L2-HGA and I really doubt the parents of these pups have been tested, so the pups could have it. It is a metabolic disorder and leads to siezures, anxiety attacks, behavioural changes (which can include aggression) and unsteadyness on their feet, amongst other symptoms.

Midori I had a staffie pup years ago that died of these symptoms a week after we got it from breeder, had to have it put to sleep because of seizures, vet didnt name condition

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

oldienotamoldie Wed 15-Sep-10 17:54:44

Yes It came from a proper breeder, he started growling the day after we got him for no apparent reason, then falling over, it couldnt walk properly either, he would lock up and wet himself. I took him straight to vet who put him on seizure medicine but a week later he was worse and they put him to sleep was devistated.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Laska Sat 18-Sep-10 09:32:41

What a heartbreaking situation for you, and just awful for the dogs.

Id not buy this puppy from a backyard breeder, as it makes it more likely that they'll breed again in the future (from a different bitch). However if they find it hard work and financially unrewarding, as well as struggling to find homes, it makes it far less likely in future.

I'd also avoid this pup due to the fact that the parents won't have been health tested, and a pup who leaves at 6 weeks will be likely to need a massively experienced owner to get them over the lack of canine socialization they experience - especially given the breed.

I'd walk away, explain to your daughter exactly why, and find a wonderful, assessed stuffy in need at a rescue. There are sadly plenty of them sad

midori1999 Sat 18-Sep-10 13:09:48

"Yes It came from a proper breeder, he started growling the day after we got him for no apparent reason, then falling over, it couldnt walk properly either, he would lock up and wet himself. I took him straight to vet who put him on seizure medicine but a week later he was worse and they put him to sleep was devistated"

I can't imagine how awful that must have been, but it seems even more reason (if there can be one) not to get this pup. sad

Sadly (and I don't mean to be rude) what many people think of as a 'proper' breeder, isn't. L2-HGA is completely able to be tested for in both parents. They will be either clear (don't have it or carry it), carrier (have one copy, so not symptomatic but can pass this on to offspring) or affected (have two copies and be affected/symptomatic/ill). A puppy has to inherit the condition from both parents to be affected and so ill. So, if you mate a clear parent to a clear parent, or a carrier parent to a clear parent there is absolutely no chance of the puppy becoming ill. No decent breeder would risk breeding sick puppies. sad

Also, as people never seem clear on this. There is no such thing as a KC registered breeder. Breeder's can 'own' affixes (stud names) with the KC, they can be a member of the accredited breeder scheme or they can be licenced with the local council.

I think I will post a thread about how to find and recognise a good breeder, as it is often asked on here.

kid Sun 19-Sep-10 22:02:25

I have had dealings with 2 different breeders and both have been very different.
The first breeder was definitely in it just for the money. But I fell in love with the puppy and nothing was going to let me leave without taking him with me. He died 5 months later without any warning at all and it totally broke my heart.

I searched long and hard for my next puppy. I walked away from several litters and I only went to view a litter when every other criteria had been met. I exchanged several emails with the breeder, we asked eachother lots of questions to make sure we were both happy with eachother.
I went to view my puppy and meet the breeder in person. I left a deposit and went back weeks later when my puppy was old enough to leave his mum. I am still in touch with the breeder (well its only been 4 weeks!) and I intend to stay in touch with her for as long as I have the pup. Maybe even longer if I ever decide to get another pup!

Please be careful, it sounds like getting this pup is a terrible idea. All puppies are gorgeous, let your head make the decisions, not your heart which is at risk of being broken should anything bad happen to the pup.

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