This Strictly Come Dancing thing - are the judges a bit racist?

(240 Posts)
Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:11:56

So for the first time in my life, I have been exposed to this Strictly stuff. Fairly predictably it was utter crap. Brucie almost remembered all of his lines, which was good.

Then I started looking at the scores.

You tell me why this performance - Susanna Reid & Kevin dance the Paso Doble to 'Los Toreadors' - - where the non-professional swished her skirts a few times

got the same marks as this performance.
Natalie Gumede & Artem dance the Charleston to 'Bang Bang'- Where the non-professional played a blinder. That girl could seriously but seriously dance.

And then tell me that racism isn't institutional.

Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:27:11

Sorry links not working - try again here Natalie and Artem

fannyfireworks Sat 16-Nov-13 23:27:59

Wtf? No.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 16-Nov-13 23:29:51



Is this the first one you've watched?

Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:30:00

Tell me why not? Seriously, I would dearly love an explanation that does not involve institutional racism.

Methe Sat 16-Nov-13 23:30:20

Ummmm I think you might be over thinking it. I watched it and didn't see a hint of racism.

They were both 1 mark from the highest possible score!

cuppachai Sat 16-Nov-13 23:30:38

erm... no?

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 16-Nov-13 23:32:54

Didnt the bloke from casualty get 39?

I do believe he's black.

Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:32:57

Yes they were both one mark from the highest possible score, But seriously are you telling me that those performances were equivalent? Because they were not. They were so not.

And yes, this is my first time of watching this rubbish. My last too. The result was ridiculous.

Methe Sat 16-Nov-13 23:34:18

You need to have a word with yourself.

BankWadger Sat 16-Nov-13 23:34:27

Don't know about the racism, but the sexism is horrific sometimes. And some of the comments from the judges in another work place would be classed as sexual harassment pure and simple.

AShowerOfBastards Sat 16-Nov-13 23:35:22

What?? Are you on a wind up?

JumpingJackSprat Sat 16-Nov-13 23:35:54

I don't think it's racism but I agree that the scores were very odd tonight. The best dance of the series so far was Natalie's rumba yet the highest she got was 9. If it hasn't been so early in the series it would have been 10s all round. Susannahs paso was technically good but she is so dull and uninspiring.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 16-Nov-13 23:36:39

Natalie was mediocre in the charleston. I've sen better from her.

Weird to call it racism.

Wonderstuff Sat 16-Nov-13 23:38:53

This is the only week I think, except last week when she was I'll that Natalie wasn't top of the leaderboard all by herself. I personally think Sophie Ellis-Baxter's charleston was better than either of them and she got less than 39.

TheFantasticFixit Sat 16-Nov-13 23:41:49

Errr.. Weird. No. Not racist. HTH.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sat 16-Nov-13 23:42:01

Every week other than this one (and last, when she was injured) I'm pretty sure she's been top of the leaderboard. And last week it was Patrick - he's black. So racism doesn't really make sense.

I thought she was overmarked tonight actually, she was out of time at a few points. Sophie's charleston was better imo.

Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:42:20

No wind up at all smile

I have genuinely no clue who these people are. I'm just saying that this girl [Natalie Gumede] could really properly dance. No-one else could. It was blindingly obvious. So when that girl draws with another girl (who as I say, just swished her skirts a few times) you wonder how and why this has happened.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sat 16-Nov-13 23:43:53

Yep, that would be because it lists her as a trained Latin dancer on her CV grin

But whether she should even be on the programme is another argument entirely...

Wonderstuff Sat 16-Nov-13 23:44:54

I thought she was off time a little in the beginning, but maybe I was imagining it?

timidviper Sat 16-Nov-13 23:45:55

So it can be claimed to be racism to mark a white person higher than a black person in anything Wuldric? Sounds like you think it from your post

I don't watch this tripe but it sounds a bit arrogant to watch it once and think you can pronounce that the judges are wrong. If the decision was suspect I'm sure it will be for far more cynical reasons than racism, like rigging it for ratings, etc

coffeeinbed Sat 16-Nov-13 23:46:12

The judges look at whether there has been an improvement.
Susannah was better than previously and Natalie wasn't , so the scores were similar.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sat 16-Nov-13 23:47:14

I noticed it more in some of the sections when she should have been in sync with Artem and wasn't quite. There was a kick section which wasn't quite together.

missmash Sat 16-Nov-13 23:48:28

Natalie Gumede can really properly dance because she has danced as part of becoming an actress, it's been widely reported, she is the best by far. However all the other contestants had little or no experience so they are marked on their own performance and how far they have come individually, they are not marked compared to each other.
If you had watched a bit more of the series you would have seen that Natalie and in fact Patrick are probably the judges favourites and certainly get lots of amazing comments. Really don't understand how racism can be seen to come in to it.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 16-Nov-13 23:49:00

Are you a dancing expert perhaps Wuldric?

Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:50:07

Look, this is my first time of watching this shite. I am a Strictly Virgin.

All I am saying is that the only non-professional who could dance, who could really really dance, was marked the same as a white girl who swished her skirts a few times to a popular tune.

Hey, if you all think that was right, then you are either all barking/racist, or I have lost the plot.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 16-Nov-13 23:51:18

I think you may have lost the

HectorVector Sat 16-Nov-13 23:51:39

How peculiar?!

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sat 16-Nov-13 23:51:55



It had gone!

Pan Sat 16-Nov-13 23:52:40

I think it is a 'wind up'. The OP is winding up herself.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sat 16-Nov-13 23:52:47

Also, if you look at the results from other series, it doesn't seem to have negatively impacted anybody's chances.

Colin Jackson and Denise Lewis came second, Alesha Dixon won, Jade Johnson and John Barnes both got a long way through. I'm sure there are plenty of others too, can just think of those off the top of my head.

OttilieKnackered Sat 16-Nov-13 23:53:09

Oh for the love of god. Are you not listening? She's been top every other week. In your (presumably lay) opinion, she was the best.

In my opinion, Susanna was far better and yet got the same score. As neither of us are experts why don't we agree that it's down to opinion and not start screeching racism.

Wuldric Sat 16-Nov-13 23:53:45

Do you genuinely believe that the skirt-swisher did as well as this Natalie person? Genuinely and honestly?

basgetti Sat 16-Nov-13 23:54:46

I thought Natalie was over marked tonight. And Sophie was under marked. Oh, and Natalie is top of the leader board every week. Hardly racist.

OttilieKnackered Sat 16-Nov-13 23:54:52

Better, in fact. They were doing totally different dances, so the moves were going to be different.

Which you might realise if you, y'know, knew anything about the dancing.

ILoveAFullFridge Sat 16-Nov-13 23:55:54

Are you a professional, trained dancer? The judges are, and they spot things laypeople miss, like posture and positioning of arms, heel leads, fleckles and bociacados - whatever they are. We don't always agree with their scoring, but the only prejudice that tends to come out is Craig's disapproval of non-dancers who are kept in, week after week, because they are entertaining and watchers vote for them.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sat 16-Nov-13 23:56:15

Yes actually. Paso is a much harder dance than the charleston.

Elfontheedge Sat 16-Nov-13 23:56:17

Good grief! Well this has given me a laugh this evening. Possibly not the OPs intention.

stickysausages Sat 16-Nov-13 23:56:25


basgetti Sat 16-Nov-13 23:57:07

Yes Susannah was better. She is more improved and did an entertaining and dynamic dance. The audience's reaction to her performance was telling, she got cheering and a standing ovation whereas applause for Natalie was quite muted. Unless all the audience are racist too.

humphryscorner Sat 16-Nov-13 23:58:33


PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sat 16-Nov-13 23:59:32

Charleston relies to some extent on the faces and the 'attitude' when you dance it. The steps aren't actually written down anywhere as far as I know - anything goes and you call it a 'choreographic choice' grin

Paso has cold hard technique you need to get right. And Susanna did.

Pan Sat 16-Nov-13 23:59:40

Still fanning myself after Suzies paso. Nat's dance left me unmoved. Maybe it's my latent racism. I just don't know.

LittleBearPad Sat 16-Nov-13 23:59:58

Have you been living in a well? How have you avoided Strictly up to now. I'd love to know so I can too. It's not racist, it can be sexist as he'll and more often than not the judges (Bruno, Arlene) need a bucket of water thrown over them for leering.

Nessalina Sun 17-Nov-13 00:01:01

I thought the judges got a bit carried away and overmarked Natalie's charleston. I found it a bit forced and not up to her usual standard. Susannah did far more than swish her skirts and got a deserved 39 for an excellent paso.

OttilieKnackered Sun 17-Nov-13 00:01:19

I think it must be mine too. Patrick's easily my favourite. I guess I must forgot my inherent racism when I watch him dance.

As did the whole programme when Louis Smith won last year.

LittleBearPad Sun 17-Nov-13 00:01:28

Hell not he'll

MysteriousHamster Sun 17-Nov-13 00:03:07

Er. It was one show. The judging varies enormously week to week. They often get it a bit wrong.

The judges score each dance as they see it - they often give someone a really high mark, then someone better comes along and they have nowhere else to go with the scores, so two good but not the same level people can easily get a similar score.

I believe Susannah went first (though could be wrong I only had it on in the background) out of the two. When that happens there is always a risk they can give her 39 and then there is not much more they could give a 'better' dancer.

Honestly, I think the Lily Allen video is enormously racist. I'd hate to think I was blind to obvious tv racism.

But this wasn't it.

Remember this whole competition is subjective. I liked Ashley Taylor Dawson the best and he didn't get any 10s. THE HORROR.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 00:05:17

Haven't been living in a well, although it sounds tempting. Is it cool and fragrant there? Many toads?

Look, this Natalie person, whoever she is, could dance. She seriously could dance. And if she is drawing with a skirt-swisher, then there is something very very wrong. That's all I am saying.

But I do honestly think that it is racism. There is no other explanation.

Nessalina Sun 17-Nov-13 00:06:41

There are lots of other explanations (see all the other replies for details)

Pan Sun 17-Nov-13 00:07:46

Possibly your ignorance of ballroom/latin/charleston dancing could be a bit of an explanation, OP. Just putting that out there...

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 00:09:38

Charming of you to put that out there Pan, but i have danced a few times, thank you very much.

Nothing to do with the blatant racism exhibited here though.

BillyBanter Sun 17-Nov-13 00:10:36

'there is no other explanation'

None you will ever be willing to listen to, anyway.

Racism is everywhere but you caught a snapshot of something and will countenance no other explanation than the one you want. It's not exactly a scientific approach is it?

Pan Sun 17-Nov-13 00:12:17

I'll take it back in then.grin

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 00:14:11

I am a rational person thank you. I have to be. Part of the day job. So I note, in my rational way, that there is a kid who can dance. She really really can dance. I celebrate that fact. It is a joy. Then I note that she is tied with a skirt swisher who wouldn't realise a beat if it hit her over the head. So there is something very wrong. That is all I am saying.

DowntonTrout Sun 17-Nov-13 00:15:33

When you talk about the non- professional dancer, Natalie, you are talking about the Natalie who trained as a professional dancer but had to give up at 19 because of an injury.

When you talk about the non-professional dancer, Suzanna, you are talking about a newsreader.

Natalie is the best because she has had years of dance training, she has not improved a great deal because she could already dance. Suzanna has come from being a non dancer to... Well...learning to dance. FWIW her Paso was brilliant tonight, certainly not perfect but so much more than skirt swishing. Natalie has previously danced better than she did tonight, her imperfect score is nothing to do with racism.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sun 17-Nov-13 00:20:44

But even world championship choreography for paso doble has quite a high level of skirt swishing! It's part of the character of the dance.

It was much better though when there were only two dances performed per week, it made comparisons much easier.

So yes, if they'd both danced a paso, Natalie might have done much better than Susanna. As it was, Susanna did just as well at dancing a paso as Natalie did at dancing a Charleston.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 17-Nov-13 00:21:56

So you've danced a few times.

Clearly you're interested in dance.

Strictly is up to, what, series 8?

And you've watched one episode?

Not that interested them.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 17-Nov-13 00:23:34

Yyy I'd prefer to go back to just two dances per episode.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 00:24:02

What I glean from that post, is that the person called 'Natalie is the best'. She actually is the best. There are no marks here for improving. That nice but overweight cook was improving <I have been to the website>. This Natalie person is simply the best. Deal with it without racism. Please.

DowntonTrout Sun 17-Nov-13 00:24:51

I agree polka dots. It was so much better when they all did one of two dances. It was easy to compare.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 17-Nov-13 00:25:49

Oh fhs.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sun 17-Nov-13 00:26:19

Perhaps they just don't like her? grin

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 17-Nov-13 00:27:07

Different judges have different criteria.

You have yours.

Vote for her.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 00:28:11

And why would they not just like her Polka? Might it be because she is not white? Just putting it out there ...

MrsS1980 Sun 17-Nov-13 00:28:16

I regularly disagree with the judges' scores. I often wonder why my favourites go while other who bore me to tears remain. It has never occurred to me that it was an issue of race.
And so, the question needs to be asked - exactly who is bringing racism into this programme?

Nyborg Sun 17-Nov-13 00:30:34

You can't have watched much of it. The nice but overweight cook was evicted last week.

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 17-Nov-13 00:32:48

Yes, you're putting it out there.

MysteriousHamster Sun 17-Nov-13 00:34:21

Did you even read my post where it says the Judges score one dance at a time, and when they give out a 10 to someone for example, can not see in the future to see whether someone better will come along, and therefore that there are no extra points to give them? This is why ALL THE TIME, the narky one on the end gives someone really good a 7, then has to give someone who is mediocre a 4 when he would've given them a 6 if they'd gone first. The ordering affects the points differences.

The view is different for the judges too, remember.

Plus they make mistakes sometimes.

Why not listen to the people who watch it week in, week out?

For all we know the producers might even tell them to ensure the same person isn't at the top of the leaderboard every week.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sun 17-Nov-13 00:38:45

Perhaps they're not sure she should be in the competition at all, or haven't particularly liked Artem's music/choreography. Or maybe she pinched Darcey's water bottle backstage.

Or perhaps they do all like her, hence her getting one mark off a perfect score...

WildThong Sun 17-Nov-13 00:51:29

Ha ha ha
Have a prize op. Good effort and all that.

Trot on.

PenelopePitstops Sun 17-Nov-13 00:56:07


Op you are, for example, a twat

JustRestingMyEyes Sun 17-Nov-13 01:47:04


The judges are somewhat erratic in their marking particularly Len this year.
Craig is usually the most consistent but even he is susceptible to slip ups i.e. overmarking Ben.

Strictly this year has been overtly fattist and misandrist in terms of comments made to and about Mark by Bruce. Did not happen to Lisa or Vanessa.

It has also been overtly sexist bordering on harrassment not seen since the days of Arlene regarding Ben.

The only thing bordering on racism is the somewhat dubious compliments that Patrick gets about his natural rhythm, yes and white men can't jump.
Plus Patrick got to be a voodoo man like Facilier in princess and frog but at least did not have to have make up a la Kananga.

What would merit a more interesting discussion is why there have been few black contestants who are voted outright winners of reality shows in general. That said Colin Jackson was robbed due to Erin's puppetry bless her.

Incidentally in Dancing with the Stars both contestants tipped for the final Amber and Corbin are both black.
Plus Amber's Charleston was better than Natalie's (given that this was week 3 not 8) Natalie's legs were loose compared with Sophie's. Sophie was worth a ten in week two. Natalie has danced better than tonight as it happens. But I agree that Susanna was overmarked as was Abbey.
Abbey I think was being saved from the bottom two. Susanna they got excited about which left nowhere else to go once they got to Natalie as Craig won't give out tens willy nilly but will give out 8s for Ben's Bod

Anyhoo here you go...

Amber's charleston
Sophie's charleston
Natalie's rumba

Natalie should win outright and should also fit the cross-demographic of couch potato women who watch Corrie and will bother to vote BUT
as it is about a Journey and she is a Ringer plus not flaunting her chest or kiddies on a regular basis she may be second or third place due to the Fickle rather than Racist nature of the great British public revering an Underdog until that underdog is successful then we knock them off their perch for getting too big for their boots.

Maryz Sun 17-Nov-13 02:04:17

ffs, have you considered going onto the thread about Strictly in Telly Addicts? There are some posters there who really know their stuff.

The judges' scores are bonkers, but not because they are racist.

I presume the op, this being her first time watching Strictly, doesn't know the difference between a Paso and a Charleston, and thus is talking out of her backside hmm

Mitchell2 Sun 17-Nov-13 02:18:24

I think they mark each of the dancers on the own merits and journey. Natalie is great and consistently but IMHO could have done more to get an elusive 10 from Craig. From Susannah's previous performances and scores she maybe deserved a 9 but by getting such great scores this week sets her up for much much more scrutiny next week.

I though personally Sophie was better than both but wasn't as good as she has been so understood why she got low scores.

I didn't see the racism but brucie telling mark he was fat was painful to watch and that was def out of order.

coffeeinbed Sun 17-Nov-13 07:38:18

OP your way of saying "this Natalie person "
and "this skirt swisher" is very rude btw.

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 10:01:59

OP, why are you ignoring the facts? In this series, all six of the people who have been voted out are white whilst the two black contestants are still in. Both of them have consistently been marked higher than the vast majority of the other white contestants, with Natalie getting the highest or close to the highest marks every week and Patrick being regularly told by the judges that he is the best male dancer. On the only occasion a black person (Patrick) has been in the dance off, he was saved by the judges who said he shouldn't have been there.

And then there's the history of the competition: out of ten series, a black person has won it three times and been runners up four times.

You're assuming that the only reason that the dances were marked the same must be racism. Does it occur to you that just maybe the judges who were actually there saw more than you did, and they could have had other reasons? Not least that that Paso was actually more enjoyable to watch than the Charleston.

Dear god op what on earth are you on? Few too many sherries or summat?
The judges marking can be strange but racist WTAF?

googlyeyes Sun 17-Nov-13 11:48:51

I really hope op replies to nennypops post above.

If she still claims racism after reading that then there really is no hope. And it's actually pretty damaging to shout racism in situations like this. It dilutes the seriousness of genuine racism and fuels the PC gorn maaad brigade

Willemdefoeismine Sun 17-Nov-13 11:55:30

I am actually hoping that Natalie gets voted out soon. Just because she's already a dancer and really IMHO shouldn't be in this competition. It's not a level playing field. And I say that as someone who greatly fancies admires Artem and his choreography grin.

I think this year it's going to be a very close-run thing because there are a lot of rapidly improving dancers. Natalie probably hasn't improved in the same way.....

ventilatormum Sun 17-Nov-13 17:30:59

Justrestingmyeyes yours is the most magnificent post.
I am a humble non dancer but frequent watcher and I think last night Susannah's dance was just pow, amazing, and actually moving.
Natalie's could have been technically better, who knows (not me) but it did not have the same wow factor and in my opinion she was just jolly lucky to get the same mark as Susannah.

BankWadger Sun 17-Nov-13 18:51:01

Half the judges are foreign, most of the professional dancers are foreign, the contestants come from all parts of the UK, have various accents and skin colours, BUT because one contestant didn't get the score 1 viewer felt they should have the whole show if rife with racism.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Also Craig almost never marks above a 9 before the last couple of weeks because as he has said more than once, there is always room for improvement (DAHLING)

itscockyfoxagain Sun 17-Nov-13 19:06:28

I think the marks were bizarre. I don't think Susannah derserved 10s. The face she was pullling was just so odd I was watching that more than her moves.
But I can't dance so how do I know if it is really good or bad.

mrsjay Sun 17-Nov-13 20:22:32

what the hell are you on about the first time you watched really ? they got the same score the exact same the judge who didnt give a 10 hardly ever gives 10s , institutional rascism WHAT

mrsjay Sun 17-Nov-13 20:24:41

Nothing to do with the blatant racism exhibited here though.

you are fucking bonkers you really are

<awaits deletion>

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 20:25:50

I do know the difference between a Paso and a Charleston. The black kid could dance. The skirt-swirler couldn't. The fact that the two were marked the same is a complete travesty. You are telling me that this is not racism. If it's not racism, what is it?

coffeeinbed Sun 17-Nov-13 20:28:28

and here we go again...

mrsjay Sun 17-Nov-13 20:30:52

the black kid and skirt swisher jeez, she was dancing that is the moves to the dance , I dont even know what you are saying as i just said the judge who didnt give a 10 never gives 10s to anybody , actually natalie was over marked in my opinion.

are you pissed or summat?
"the black kid"

nennypops Sun 17-Nov-13 20:39:04

So, Wuldric, rather than just repeating what you've said several time already, how about reading some of the responses on here, taking them in and responding to them? You ask "If it's not racism, what is it?" but that very question has been answered several times.

The fact is that both dancers got 10s from the same judges; those judges couldn't give more to Natalie even if they thought she deserved more. So how precisely were they being racist? And if you think the one remaining judge who gave 9s is racist, you are seriously deluded.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 20:39:23

I'm a black kid myself smile And not pissed thank you. I simply note for the record that two performances received identical marks. One contestant could dance. The other couldn't. The purpose of this thread is to invite your explanations as to why/how this might happen.

ok not pissed just ignorant given all the reasoned arguments offered on this thread.

TheUnstoppableWindmill Sun 17-Nov-13 20:44:54

Sorry that I haven't RTFT but you also need to check your understanding of 'institutional racism', ie

TheUnstoppableWindmill Sun 17-Nov-13 20:45:52
LittleBearPad Sun 17-Nov-13 20:46:28

But there have been lots of explanations as to why it happened. You just aren't reading them.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 20:52:05

I do believe that my understanding of institutional racism is pretty good thank you. I would actually go so far as to suggest that my understanding of institutional racism is better than yours tbh.

I have had no reasoned arguments or rational explanations as to why the black kid was marked the same as the skirt-swisher. None. This post struck me as honest and trying to get to the heart of the problem:

Natalie Gumede can really properly dance because she has danced as part of becoming an actress, it's been widely reported, she is the best by far. However all the other contestants had little or no experience so they are marked on their own performance and how far they have come

Natalie Gumede is the best by far. By a million miles. So the judges are judging on progression from a given start-point? So why did that nice chef go out? I don't buy it. They come into the show equal. They compete equally. But then the best person doesn't get the best marks? Do me a favour.

LittleBearPad Sun 17-Nov-13 20:58:04

She was top - she was joint top but she was still top.

However as you've managed to avoid ten years of 'Strictly' maybe you should just continue to avoid it.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:02:53

Definitely agree with the suggestion to avoid the programme. Made my blood boil, as you can see.

Not one of you has actually explained how it is that the best dancer did not receive the best marks.

That's a pretty sad state of affairs tbh. Not good. Are you all so attuned to institutional racism that it just passes you by?


bitemabum Sun 17-Nov-13 21:04:23

We'll Waldron, I think you might be on to something. I mean clearly the judges are showing favour to men from Grimsby. Poor Artem doesn't stand a chance. What are you on about you mad cow?

rocketeer Sun 17-Nov-13 21:04:34

By constantly referring to Susannah Reid as 'the skirt swisher' is offensive. Why can't you use her actual name?

oh look its a goady fucker being a goady fucker now there's a surprise.....

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:10:27

You're not engaging with the problem ...

The problem is that the black kid could dance all the other contestants off the floor. You either have to tell me that she isn't better than the others by a country mile (which is not credible) or you have to give me a rational explanation as to why she didn't get marks that reflected her ability

jonicomelately Sun 17-Nov-13 21:12:11

I've been watching SCD for years. The judges are definitely not racist confused

Phoebe47 Sun 17-Nov-13 21:13:08

LittleBearPad - I switch off the television to avoid watching programmes I don't want to watch. Works a treat.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:13:57

So explain the result. Just explain it. Rather than affirming something emotionally. Just explain that result.

coffeeinbed Sun 17-Nov-13 21:14:46

I think I need some chocolate.

OddFodd Sun 17-Nov-13 21:14:54

She got marked 39 out of a possible 40. Either you're on the gin or you're bonkers

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:16:08

I am neither bonkers nor on the gin. She was the best dancer by far. Please explain why she did not get the best results.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:17:43

Is this goady thread still going on??

OddFodd Sun 17-Nov-13 21:17:55

And it's been explained to you numerous times - people get marked on their skills from when they started.

Natalie is a professionally trained dancer so she has a higher bar than many of the others.

There have been 3 black/asian/mixed race winners of Strictly afaik

bitemabum Sun 17-Nov-13 21:18:17

Let's refer you back to almost every previous post for an explanation. Maybe it's time to give it up, the racism arguement clearly doesn't work on this one so bore off.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:18:59

What did you expect them to give her??

Your arguement may have hel some water if she had gone first, but she went after Suzannah.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:20:10

Also, if the show was racist, they would have got rid of Natalie last week when she was poorly.

Mitchell2 Sun 17-Nov-13 21:20:50

I believe I tried to explain the marking. I am not a die hard scd watcher but I do remember on occasions over the years being utterly confused about the marking and the judges talking about the journey and marking them accordingly, and certainly for those who score highly one week who then peak their own ability and then get bad scores from then on.

Its clear you feel so strongly about this and you obviously see something that most of us who have watched this over the years don't. I genuinely would have liked to have heard your opinion when Colin Jackson won it, or Alecia Dixon was a judge and if you still thought that the collective scoring was racist on those occasions or just happens to now be this series.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:20:55

Um, so protesting against blatant racism is goady? You think? I'm going to carry on goading you then, matey smile

Where is it stated in the rules that certain entrants have a higher bar than others? It is not stated so in the rules. They all enter equally. Absolutely equally. So the best dancer should get the best marks. Simples.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:21:50

But its not blatant racism, its in your head.

jonicomelately Sun 17-Nov-13 21:22:15

Lol at blatant racism grin]

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:23:13

Suzannah danced first and danced well. She got 39

Then Natalie Danced. She danced well and also got 39.

The judges cannot take back the score they gave Suzannah, so what would you have them do?

OddFodd Sun 17-Nov-13 21:23:48

If you can find one other person who supports you in your bizarre stance, I'll eat the wig Natalie was wearing last night.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:23:51

What did you expect them to give her??

Your arguement may have hel some water if she had gone first, but she went after Suzannah.

I do not understand this comment. It makes no sense to me. So you are telling me that the order in which contestants appear makes a difference to their marks? Seriously? In which case they were being racist by ensuring that Natalie went last and therefore couldn't win.

neffi Sun 17-Nov-13 21:24:23

Oh. Dear. God. wishes there was an ignore poster button

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:24:41

I think you are being obtuse on purpose.

bitemabum Sun 17-Nov-13 21:25:40

YAWN! Op your opinions of strictly are everything that's wrong with the world and still not very interesting. I'm off to bed. Have fun.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:27:03

So if the judges are racist, how did Alesha win, or Louis?

Vintagebeads Sun 17-Nov-13 21:28:38

I don't think she is the best dancer in the Strictly sense.The idea is the untrained "star" dances like a professional.You seem to miss the concept of the show.

Nathalie is a trained dancer, as was Denise Van Outen last year.Nathalie wont win either imo.I think Patrick will.

The best dancer imo are Patrick and Suzanna. Both untrained, Patrick is 50 so double the age of the likes of Abbey and Nathalie.

ZombieMonkeyButler Sun 17-Nov-13 21:29:47

I can't believe this. OP, you are so wide of the mark you can't even see it.

This week was not Natalie's best performance by a mile. In previous weeks - when Natalie's dances have been better - Natalie & Artem have consistently gained the top marks.

What of Patrick? Did you find his scores to be fair?

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Nov-13 21:29:51

Wuldric - yes, it does make a difference to the marks the order they go in.

Susannah went first, at the point of her dance, several of the judges thought that was good enough to get 10 and one said 9. They put her clearly at the top of the leaderboard.

Then was Natalie's dance, they might have judged it better, but 10 is the highest score they could give, the best score they could give at that point was the same. The judge (Craig) that gave them both a 9 not a 10, for both said they were good but not perfect, and he only gives 10 for perfection.

If they had seen Natalie's dance first and given that a 10 (or in Craig's case, 9), they might have then seen Susannah's dance, though it to be good, but not quite as good so given it 8 or 9. Once they'd broken out the 10s, the best Natalie could get was the same score, which is what she got.

It is often the case some people get better scores if they have just gone after someone really shit, or worse scores if they've just been after someone great.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:30:36

I genuinely am not being obtuse on purpose. I genuinely have a point here.

Let's phrase the argument in a different way:

(1) Did Natalie perform better (a priori) than any other dancer that night - yes or no.

So far you have all agreed with me that yes is the correct answer to the above question, and it is not really arguable, That girl can dance.

(2) Should Natalie receive higher marks for dancing better than any other contestant?

My understanding of the rules of the competition is that it is about what you can do rather than where you came from. Otherwise Anne Widdecombe would have been a stand out winner. All contestants are presumed equal.

Mitchell2 Sun 17-Nov-13 21:31:26

I was respectful of your opinion but come on, all the contestants of course don't come in at the same level. It's television - they get a cross section of backgrounds (sports people, pop stars, actors, Politicians etc) who have different abilities from the start. It's never designed to be 100% level hmm, regardless of race, sex, weight, or lack of rhythm that some of the contestants clearly have!

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 21:32:07

Oh. My. God.

Natalie Gumede did not get the best results because the judges felt that she performed equally as well as Susannah Reid. Therefore - remarkably - they gave them equal marks.

I know that that is not what you want to hear because you are clearly desperate to see racism everywhere for whatever reason, but that is the explanation.

Feel free to continue inventing conspiracy theories - I could do with something genuinely boring to help me get to sleep tonight hmm

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Nov-13 21:32:25

oh and OP, there has been 9 episodes of Strictly this series so far, Natalie has taken part in 8 (she had to pull out due to being ill last week), of those 8, she's had the highest mark from the judges for 6 of those weeks. If they are marking her down due to racism, they're not doing it very well...

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Nov-13 21:33:14

(oh and last week, when she didn't dance, it was the other black competitor who got the highest mark)

redbinneo Sun 17-Nov-13 21:33:25

I don't know what ldric stands for, but I'm pretty sure that the Wu in front of it is an acronym for wind up.

Mitchell2 Sun 17-Nov-13 21:33:35

I personally thought Sophie was the best dancer, the the guy who did the cowboy paso. Natalie's charleston wasn't crisp/pop in her movements as I would have liked. But I ain't one if the judges!

ProphetOfDoom Sun 17-Nov-13 21:34:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Sun 17-Nov-13 21:34:22

Actually, going last is usually a good place to be put.

It's the most memorable for the voters, and also as the judges have marked everybody else already your mark is generally 'correct'.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 21:35:05

Oh, and I don't agree that Natalie performed better than anyone else last night. I thought it was a decidedly average performance compared to what she's capable of, and she was certainly out of time with her partner on several occasions.

If anything, I think she was over-marked. Susannah's performance was superior.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:37:00

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Vintagebeads Sun 17-Nov-13 21:39:02

Suzannah was better than Nathalie by a mile IMO....that's assuming I am allowed one.

ZombieMonkeyButler Sun 17-Nov-13 21:39:46

Answers to your latest questions;

1. No, Natalie did not perform the best dance last night. To my (albeit untrained) eye Abbey & Alijaz and Susanna & Kevin were better. I am a fan of Natalie & Artem, but did not particularly enjoy their Charleston.

2. Natalie & Artem DID score the highest marks of the evening, albeit jointly.

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Nov-13 21:40:15

Wudric - once they had given someone else 10s, if someone else came along with a better performance, what do you think they should do? I mean, if giving them the same high mark isn't good enough for you, do you think they should never give anyone a 10 unless they are the last to perform of the night just in case someone else does better?

Wuldric, have you had a drink or six? One equal mark for two dances on one show is not strong evidence of racism. People who have watched the show more than once are giving you the context but you are ignoring it.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 21:41:49

Well, that's the first time I have ever reported a post on MN so thank you for that at least, OP.

And FGS stop saying that Susannah swished skirts. She danced a paso doble. As you'd know if you knew anything about dancing.

DontmindifIdo Sun 17-Nov-13 21:41:59

here you go OP - the scores for all the other shows - that poor Natile, only getting the top marks on 6 of the 8 shows she's taken part in, they are really marking her down hmm

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:41:59

How do you respond to DontmindifIdo then Wuldric

ZombieMonkeyButler Sun 17-Nov-13 21:42:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Wuldric - as you are new to the programme, you might not realise that each judge can only give a maximum of 10 marks. So the most any dance will get is 40 marks.

Susannah danced first, the judges were impressed that a newcomer had managed to master a difficult technical dance and gave her 39/40. She probably lost a point for not being the show's best dancer.

Natalie then danced, also impressed the judges as she danced a lively and entertaining charleston so they gave her 39/40. She probably lost a point because there were some flaws in the execution of the dance.

Unless you think that some of the judges should have given Natalie marks of 11 or 12 points, or are saying that (in your subjective opinion) her dance was so absolutely perfect in every way that all judges should have been forced to give her the perfect 10 marks, then I don't really understand how you think the marking should have been done differently confused.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:52:59

OP seems to have disappeared now the facts have been presented which disprove the theory they are peddling.

thenightsky Sun 17-Nov-13 21:56:14

Don't we have this thread every year? hmm

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 21:57:08

I'm here! What facts have been presented? No-one has yet explained why Natalie got the same marks as Susannah.

I thought I was very clear. Which bit is hard to understand?

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 21:59:53

Are you going to answer DontmindifIdo

You have already said you have never watched Strictly before so you really are making massive assumptions about what has happened on the rest of the shows based on one snapshot.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:00:13

I don't think facts were ever really important here.

It's odd because I have genuinely never thought of Strictly as being remotely racist. Whereas I have cringed at the way the men have been objectified this series (Bruno, Craig and Darcy drooling over Ben and Ashley).

And of course I just generally cringe at Brucie grin

DowntonTrout Sun 17-Nov-13 22:00:55

What an absolute load of bollocks this thread is.

This is exactly what gives those who cry racism a bad name.

OP, you actually know nothing about dancing, that is very clear. Plus you are someone who puts skin colour first, before every other consideration. Strictly could be accused of sexism, it has been accused of ageism. Your uninformed comments and clear misunderstanding make you appear very foolish.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 22:01:31

Ok MrsCakes, can you answer this question:

Which of the two is a better dancer?

And the follow up question is, why did the marks not reflect this?

ThenAgain Sun 17-Nov-13 22:01:35

Has it occurred to you that your behaviour towards Susannah is coming across as racist?

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:02:13

Plenty of people have explained. What you seem to mean is that no-one has agreed with your explanation of why they got the same marks.

I don't think you want to hear anything that doesn't agree with your interpretation, so we're all wasting our time really.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:02:56

The better dancer on Saturday night was Susannah. I don't know why the marks did not reflect this.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:03:24


I couldn't stop cringing last night when Brucie shouted at Craig that Mark had done well for a guy of his size

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:04:08

Which of the two is a better dancer?

Suzannah - how many times can it be said on one thread.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 22:05:03


Are you for real?! You jump straight to racism?

Someone's on the wind up tonight

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:05:09

Oh, I know! It was awful.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 22:05:40

Look, not one person has argued that Susannah can dance better than Natalie. Not one. She can't. It's unfortunate and nothing to do with skin colour but she just can't.

So tell me why the marks didn't reflect that.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:07:06

So you think Natalie should have been given 40, or that suzannah should have gotten a lower score?

plus3 Sun 17-Nov-13 22:12:44

The only way to be fair, is for everyone to do the same dance. It would then be judged alongside it each other. Lively music, with good interpretation will always do well.
Susannah & Kevin's dance was pure paso, and deserved the points it got. Natalie is in a different league - but she was out of time on several occasions. Each dance is judged individually - you can't compare a paso to a charleston . Also the paso was very traditional and probably appealed to the Blackpool crowd, whereas the Charleston was very traditional but with a super cool piece of music - probably not so popular.

not sure why I am bothering, but worth a shot

DowntonTrout Sun 17-Nov-13 22:14:52

Because Suzannas interpretation of the Paso was technically better than Natalie's rather flat charleston. (Sophie EB did a better charleston earlier in the series.) therefore Natalie's charleston had already been beaten and did not deserve top marks, particularly as she should be the better dancer.

Suzannas paso was so good, and such a step up in technique that she deserved the raised marks.

This is very simple. Your refusal to accept any sort of argument other than racism leads me to believe you are just another Goady fucker <yawn> because no one could actually be that stupid.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:15:34

Maybe they are marking Sophie down because she is not embracing the strictly perma-tan.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:17:47

Vintagebeads Sun 17-Nov-13 21:39:02

Suzannah was better than Nathalie by a mile IMO....that's assuming I am allowed one.

ZombieMonkeyButler Sun 17-Nov-13 21:39:46
Answers to your latest questions;

1. No, Natalie did not perform the best dance last night. To my (albeit untrained) eye Abbey & Alijaz and Susanna & Kevin were better. I am a fan of Natalie & Artem, but did not particularly enjoy their Charleston.

So that's two people who do say that Susannah danced better than Natalie - despite your reiterated claim that not one person has said so. hmm

Although why I am bothering to point this out when you are clearly only interesting in picking out the details that support your point, I don't know.

Having watched both the paso and the charleston, I prefered the paso. I liked seeing it danced traditionally and felt that the Charleston was a bit scruffy in places. So giving them equal marks seems quite generous to Natalie IMO.

I'm sure that next week Natalie will be back in the lead where she usually is. She is the better dancer generally but not this week.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 22:20:33

I genuinely am not being a goady fucker. I am in fact inviting you all to study institutional racism and the way it can manifest itself in even the tritest of events.

Sieveoooplay - you have argued that Susannah is the better dancer. That's just a long way away from a sustainable argument. Are you sure? Why would you think that?

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:20:35

Downton - Sophie's Charleston was in a different league to Natalie's, wasn't it? Now that was a fantastic dance. Stunning.

'Flat' is exactly the word for Natalie's - if you think back to how effortless Sophie made it look.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:21:08

I can't be bothered any more.

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 22:23:59

I think last night Sophie suffered from going first. If she'd been in the middle of the order the judges might have been a bit less conservative with their marking.

Given how much of an issue was made of Anton Fiona being out of time the other week Natalie got off lightly. I was expecting the judges to have picked it up and been a bit more negative about it. Other have certainly been marked down more for it.

RedPencils Sun 17-Nov-13 22:24:20

Suzanna was the better dancer on the night.

Natalie is amazing, probably the best contestsnt they've ever had. but last night she was below par, not surprising as she has been unwell and has a serious back injury. She was out of step with Artem a couple of times and looked a bit awkward in the lift. If anything she was over marked. IMO obviously.

If you want a loony conspiracy theory, try The Strictly forum on digital spy. They love it over there.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 22:25:34

Um. fine Sieveoooplay. Thanks for your contribution. Maybe sometime you might care to explain to me why the sparky black kid who could dance got the same marks as a skirt swisher. But maybe, you wouldn't like the answer, if you were to examine it honestly.

SPsDoesntLikeChaffingFishnets Sun 17-Nov-13 22:27:46

So a two women get the same mark on a shit dance show and think racism?!

Alll righty then

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:28:01

Have just rewatched Sophie's Charleston on YouTube and then clicked through to Denise's and James' from last year. Am just about to rewatch Chris and Ola's which I think is one of my favourite Strictly dances ever just for the sheer fun factor grin

MissMarplesBloomers Sun 17-Nov-13 22:28:05

Oh dear God another one.



No I'm not

Yes you are


Ok then <leaves thread to find chocolate>

plus3 Sun 17-Nov-13 22:28:08

Yes! Digital spy would welcome you with open arms!!!

Strictly is a lot of things, but racist it is not. Especially based on your assumptions about marks.

You are just wrong. Hope that's helps smile

coffeeinbed Sun 17-Nov-13 22:28:40

OP you are incredibly rude.

And strangely resistant to any explanations.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:29:46

Why don't you explain to us why Natalie has had the best scores of all in every week. Her combined scores were the best on weeks 1&2 (which were combined), and she has had the best scores in weeks 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8. She was not top in week 7 because she didn't dance.

She has the top average scores as well, 2 points above the next dancer, despite dancing one dance less.

How do you explain that???

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:31:01

But maybe, you wouldn't like the answer, if you were to examine it honestly.

Oh, the irony.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:31:06

And could you explain what you think should have happened with the scores. Should Natalie have got 40 or Suzannah should have got less.

Wuldric Sun 17-Nov-13 22:32:41

You keep telling me I am wrong, chaps

But only one of you has actually made an argument that Natalie danced worse than susannah (and that person disappeared quick sharp)

So, any rational explanations?

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:34:27

The technical ability of Suzannahs dance was better than Natalies. CRH is a particular stickler for technical ability.

If you answer my questions I am less likely to think you are being goady.

DownstairsMixUp Sun 17-Nov-13 22:35:43

Natalie has been the best in some weeks, this week, she wasn't. Does that make me racist? Seriously OP there was nothing racist about this weeks strictly.

DowntonTrout Sun 17-Nov-13 22:36:02

Sparky black kid? Alrighty then. Such a non racist term of phrase- I must use it to describe dancers more often.

lebearpolar wasn't Chris and Olas charleston brilliant? It's funny how some dances just suit someone. Bit like Suzanna and her Paso- that has been her dance of the series. Ah- may-zing.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:37:25

Sieveoooplay, it's clearly racism. Somehow. It has to be because I want it to be! So the fact that Natalie has more marks than anyone else on this show and has been the top of the leader board nearly every week is in some way racist and I demand an explanation. Right now. As long as it is the explanation which I want to hear, which is that it is racism.

I think that lots of people have said that Natalie's charleston was less than 100% perfect - and as such 39/40 was a fair mark.

It would seem unfair to everyone taking part if one dancer was given a perfect 40/40 even though she made mistakes in her dance - just because she is usually the better dancer.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:38:58

Why is the OP assuming that we are all white?

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:39:13

But only one of you has actually made an argument that Natalie danced worse than susannah (and that person disappeared quick sharp)

How's counting coming along for you these days, OP? We managed to get as far as three people making that argument last time I had to count up for you - me and two others.

LeBearPolar Sun 17-Nov-13 22:41:46

Downton - I just rewatched it and it made me smile. They were such a perfect pairing, those two, and that Charleston was fab.

But I hope you're not daring to praise Susannah's paso when we've been reliably informed that it was just skirt-swishing and the 'sparky black kid' (could that be any more patronising to a 29 year old woman?) was so much better? hmm

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 22:41:59

I'm not sure if I'm in that 3 or not but you can add me. I wasn't particularly bowled over by Susannah's paso but it was danced better than Natalie's Charleston.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:43:09

I love Chris and Ola's jive. That was the first series that I watched properly and its still one of my favourite dances.

Taffeta Sun 17-Nov-13 22:43:27

The scores make sense if you have seen the series not just this ep.

As others have said, Susannah stepped up, Natalie has danced better, Charleston not her dance. Sophie's was more convincing.

I guess the judges were a bit 10 happy as it was Blackpool.

CarolineKnappShappey Sun 17-Nov-13 22:44:07

Why don't we all say we agree with the OP?

Then she might stop.

(But we don't, obviously)

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 22:44:55

Charleston not even in Natalie's top 3 dances IMO.

OP, you have ignored several posts pointing out Natalie has scored the highest marks every week.

coffeeinbed Sun 17-Nov-13 22:49:31

This thread is bonkers.
I can tell you exactly what OP's next post will be.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:50:00

Because that doesn't fit with the theory so its just ignored.

Are you Natalie's Mum OP??

WallyBantersJunkBox Sun 17-Nov-13 22:56:55's racist is it?

What will it be next week - homophobic? Ageist?

The judges could have voted out a black contestant on a previous occasion, but they didn't. They judged based on skills. If the British public had been completely racist then the two black contestants would be at the bottom every week, wouldn't they?

The end of the Charleston was cocked up - previous to this she fainted twice, smashed her partners nose and is covered in bruises. She is a little bit tense and you can't blame her. When he picked her up she tensed and went over like a sack of potatoes.

She tried her best, but it wasn't a patch on Abbey Crouch's Charleston for example.

The Paso Doble was executed expertly - with correct body tension, passion, use of the floor and great moves. The dance was scored on Paso Doble moves, not Charleston.

If you want to keep crowing on I suggest you download the entire show and watch the Charleston performances. Then make a note of the scores and compare the dance. or you could keep goading.

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 22:58:03

The judges could have voted out a black contestant on a previous occasion

Thats true. Patrick and Anya didn't deserve to be in the dance-off but were saved unanimously.

TheFallenMadonna Sun 17-Nov-13 22:58:09

You assume that the marks on Strictly are meant to be for quality of dance only.

That assumption is wrong I think.

So your conclusion is not valid.

WallyBantersJunkBox Sun 17-Nov-13 23:07:46

Patrick is amazing - 50 years old. I wish I had his energy.

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 23:26:01

I wonder if they still only had 2 different dances per show whether the OP would have started this thread? Especially if Sophie and Abbey had both danced the charleston as well. Sophie would have danced her off the floor and I think I might have preferred Abbey's as well. It would definitely show how overmarked that 39 was.

SelectAUserName Mon 18-Nov-13 08:29:02

OP, you make the mistake of thinking Strictly is a straight dancing competition. It isn't. It is a light entertainment reality TV show first and foremost. The BBC are completely upfront about this. Viewers are invited to vote for "their favourite" NOT the "best dancer".

As all such shows are, it is subject to producer manipulation via such things as the running order, the music choices (not left entirely up to the pros as some might think) and the judges' scoring. The producers want drama, they want the programme to beat X Factor in the ratings, they want headlines. There is no drama in one dancer - this year, it happens to be Natalie - being so technically superior to the rest of the field that there is no suspense as to who might win, who might challenge her to the glitterball, and they fear the audience would switch off. They have to create some element of unpredictability and so the overmarking of other dancers takes place from time to time, tied scores on the leaderboard happen as they encourage a "shock" bottom two (as happened to Abbey, who dropped from joint second, a few weeks ago)

As it happens, last series' equivalent of Natalie was Denise van Outen - white - who was the most technically proficient celebrity there had been up to that point, who was beaten in the final by Louis Smith - mixed race.

Having said all that, we must also remember that the judges are watching the dances live and feeling the atmosphere they create, and we are not. Again, they are upfront about scoring on performance as well as technique and it is entirely possible that Susanna's Paso had a more "electric" feel to it while being danced live than Natalie's Charleston.

DontmindifIdo Mon 18-Nov-13 09:09:46

Op - the questions I asked you were a) once Susanna (who danced first) was given perfect marks by 3 of hte 4 judges, once someone else came along who did a better dance (in your opinion, I don't actually think technically it was better, although more entertaining to watch and set to better music), what should they have done? The best they could do was mark her the same, unless they went back and revised down the scores for Susanna, she would have to get the same mark as Natalie from 3 of the 4 judges as 10 is as high as they can go. Do you think they should change it so they don't announce marks until all the dancers have performed so they can rank them against each other rather than judging that performance of that dance?

and b) if the fact she didn't get the highest mark is a sign of racism, how do you explain the fact that either she or the other black non-professional contender have been at the top of the leaderboard (either on their own or joint top scores with another pair) 7 of the 9 programmes in this series?

Sieveoooplay Mon 18-Nov-13 09:18:37

I bet the OP wont come back now she has been presented with the facts.

Noseynoonoo Mon 18-Nov-13 10:39:55

Ha, ha, just reading through this howling away. It is clearly a wind-up.

OP claims to be a dance expert - but hasn't watched strictly.
OP claims to be black and then refers repeatedly to a mixed race 29 year old woman as the 'black kid'.
OP says the 'black kid' is being marked down, but in fact she usually comes top.
OP says that after Susanna got 39, the judges should have found some 11s and 12s for Natalie. This has been explained to her but OP refuses to understand the explanation - almost like she's saying black is white (excuse the pun).

You know, I should have actually responded with my very first biscuit

WallyBantersJunkBox Mon 18-Nov-13 10:48:29

Well let's see if the OP watches X Factor next week and judges that as racist too.

ThursdayLast Mon 18-Nov-13 14:46:28

I'm with Noseynoonoo

And the previous poster who described this thread as bonkers.

It's just too funny

Badgerwife Tue 19-Nov-13 09:40:59

bloody hell, I'm going to have to hide this thread, it made my blood boil so much.

OP seems to be a member of the Perpetually Offended. Considering the number of responses she's had to her questions, which she seems determined to not see, she is being deliberately obtuse

LeBearPolar Tue 19-Nov-13 18:07:29

The determination to see this decision as racist No Matter What made my blood boil, Badgerwife.

Maryz Tue 19-Nov-13 18:09:01

I dunno, Sieve.

The op doesn't sound to me like someone who would actually consider facts grin

birdbrain21 Tue 19-Nov-13 18:22:18

haven't read through the thread so sorry if someone else has said this, but as you pointed out this was your first time watching, so a few points you should think about
1. They were doing different dances the 'skirt-swishing' which you apparanetly didn't think was very good is actually the style of the dance and actually if she hadn't swished it would have been rubbish, the swishing is partially what made it so good
2. If you had watched the seroes from the beginning you would see how much susannah has improved and how much she deserved that score where as natalie had dance traing till she was 19 which kind of defeats the purpose of the programme therefore I'm not sure were racism comes in but actualy considering she's a trained dancer natalies dance was actually nothing special...

birdbrain21 Tue 19-Nov-13 18:30:59

also the top mark they can get is 40 (10 from each judge) so 1 judge didn't think both were perfect which means even if natalies dance was better (not saying it was) she couldn't have got a better score then susannah unless it was perfect which it apparently wasn't. They both did good dances that deserved good scores and it just happened that they got the same score, nothing to do with who they are, or what colour they are!

<very tired that all made sense in my head but don't know if it makes sense to read>

birdbrain21 Tue 19-Nov-13 18:34:17

oh and having read through the thread yes actually susannah did dance better, if you go on youtube and look at other charlestons done on strictly you will see that actually natalies charleston wasn't anything special, it was a good dance and nice to watch but not amazing, look at other female celebs doing paso and susannah did an amazing job!

mateysmum Tue 19-Nov-13 18:46:10

I know nothing about the technicalities of dance, but Susannah did dance better than Natalie this week.

Susannah dances every dance from the heart, with joy in her eyes and this week she matched that with (according to the expert judges) good technique. I couldn't look away whilst she was dancing. Whereas, though Natalie is usually better technically, she lacks something of that passion and warmth and this week was way off her best.

SHE WAS JOINT TOP MARK. OP you can argue that Susannah was over marked but until they start allowing the judges to give 11 out of 10 you cannot claim Natalie was undermarked. She was the best - joint best. Get over yourself OP.

bialystockandbloom Tue 19-Nov-13 20:18:50

OP the dancers aren't compared with each other. They're scored according to how well they perform their dance. Susannah was scored highly because she executed her dance well and with passion. It has no bearing on how Natalie was marked.

<wonders why I bothered though>

Willemdefoeismine Wed 20-Nov-13 10:00:10

I actually think that a lot of the amateur dancers are improving significantly week-on-week whereas Natalie started off from being possibly the best dancer and hasn't made anywhere near the same journey of improvement.

It's not really fair anyway to judge someone who has a background in dance with those who haven't! And Natalie does whereas people like Ben, Patrick, Abbie and Susannah haven't!

LeBearPolar Wed 20-Nov-13 18:10:28

Willem - I think that's actually a really good point. I was much more impressed by some of Natalie's earlier dances than I was by this one. And yet some of the others have just got better and better.

BMW6 Wed 20-Nov-13 19:40:59

OP - I am trained in dancing.

Susannah's Paso performance was better than Natalie's Charlston IMO.

You may, of course, have a different opinion. Each to their own.

But to try and call the markings as an example of Racism is, quite frankly, insane.

Patrick (black) was top of the leader board last week. Quite right too.

The fact that YOU think Natalie was the better dancer does not make it Racist. I suspect YOU are the Racist here.

nennypops Thu 21-Nov-13 21:57:56

You simply have to look at last year's final to show OP's point for the nonsense it is. Denise van Outen (white) was clearly the best dancer, but was beaten by Louis Smith (black). Was that due to racism, do you suppose?

LeBearPolar Fri 22-Nov-13 14:40:15

nennypops, I do hope that you are not presenting facts which interfere with the OP's enjoyment of his/her sense of persecution? grin

WallyBantersJunkBox Fri 22-Nov-13 22:56:18


nennypops Sun 24-Nov-13 07:30:42

No comment from OP on last night's programme, I see. You know, the one where Natalie got the highest marks.

WallyBantersJunkBox Mon 25-Nov-13 16:41:53

Exactly what I was wondering Nenny. gringrin

LeBearPolar Mon 25-Nov-13 17:36:41

Nenny, are you trying to say that the judges aren't racist? That Natalie got the highest marks (as she did last week when the OP started the thread, btw)? Explain that result. Just explain it. Just explain it. Oh and then something about sparky black kids and skirt-swishing...

<bores self trying to parody tedious arguments made by OP>

CURIOUSMIND Sat 21-Dec-13 22:18:43

How could Natalie did not win, she is seriously spectacular!

PeterxxxBaxter Sun 22-Dec-13 07:08:19

Strictly come dancing proves Britain is still racist and ageist. Please listen to my arrangement of the Christmas Can Can I was just one of many bandleaders and we could have all performed Robbie Williams star of strictly come dancing song better than he could. We could have all performed most of the music better. Yet most aged people have to watch people on the BCC who are getting paid a fortune for not being able to do what we could all do.
Please give my love to Natalie Gumede you were the winner in my book and I know more about dance bands than all the Judges and the Producers on the BBC put together. I used to work as Peter fats Baxter.

This is Christmas music for everyone

SMorgauseBordOfChristmasTat Sun 22-Dec-13 07:22:27

Strictly has never been fair. It isn't a serious competition it's light entertainment. I don't watch it any more because I got really cross when Zoe Ball, by far the best dancer in her series, didn't win. I do know about dancing.

It's a popularity contest as far as the public go - they vote for the person they like best, not necessarily the best dancer.

As it happens the judges thought Zoe was the best but she lost the public vote. I suppose someone could cry sexism because she was beaten by a man who was not such a good dancer.

The judges vote on progress made. Natalie could already dance and Susannah (who I can't stand) couldn't. The judges feel that Susannah has made more progress so mark her highly. They judge Natalie to a harder standard because she started off far ahead of the others.

If this was a serious competition that would be unfair. But it isn't a serious competition. Someone who could already dance well will always be marked more harshly than a novice. Colour doesn't come into it.

Captainbarnacles1101 Sun 22-Dec-13 07:31:36

I apologise for not doing the rascist thing. But I wanted to ask does anyone else think Abbey Clancy was a little drunk/inappropriate/flirty/ all over her partner last night?

bishbashboosh Sun 22-Dec-13 07:33:08



More like sexist, it was and all woman final

Or maybe fattiest

ProphetOfDoom Sun 22-Dec-13 07:42:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Apostrophe1 Wed 25-Dec-13 00:48:47

Wudric, your questions are entirely justified and your analysis spot on. This 'competition' like most of the other shows in this genre, ('The Great British Bake off', Pop idols or whatever it is that cowell creature produces) is dictated by baser instincts than fairness.

The results rarely have anything to do with who is more talented or produces the superior result/product, but are more clearly related to primitive/primal tribal affiliations. (middle class, white, working class etc. all being tribes).

The 'Strictly' audience and judges vote for people who reflect themselves, thus affording themselves the opportunity to bask vicariously in their pseudo-winner's glory, much as if they themselves had attained the victory.

So miniscule is their actual self-confidence that to recognise someone who doesn't immediately reflect themselves, as superior in talent, in their sub-conscious, would be tantamount to kicking themselves in the teeth.

They will continue to ridicule your questions, instead of conducting some serious introspection; and they will continue to make excuses for obvious injustice.

And as a result we will continue to perform at inferior levels as a country, whether it is on the sports field, in the music industry or in the political arena. Countries like the USA, that do a much better job of embracing and celebrating talent, whatever the hue of the talented person, will continue to lead where we can only follow.

It is impossible to truly improve when one doesn't recognise superior talent and instead consoles and rewards oneself with false accolades. If people could simply be more honest, recognise someone else's superior talent regardless of their race, and then work like a maniac to achieve and eventually surpass that talent, we would all be improved as a society. Instead we will remain deluded, narrow-minded, middling, unremarkable......... and bask in it.

Pimpf Wed 25-Dec-13 00:53:40

Is this for real? Is someone really suggesting that strictly is racist because 2 dancers got the same result?

Apostrophe1 Wed 25-Dec-13 01:36:24

Actually his/her questions were entirely on the right track, as illustrated by the fiasco of a result. Even the pseudo-winner looked somewhat embarassed by her patently undeserved 'victory' bling.

TheseAreTheJokesFolks Wed 25-Dec-13 03:29:57

Ooh this thread is back...

I would imagine Abbey won on the back of a second sweep of voting from Sophie voters once she was knocked out.

Judges if anything rigged it to make sure justice was done for Nat to get top three and her showdance was good.

Great british public like the J word.

Both 1st and second this year in Dancing with the stars went to black dancers Amber Riley Corbin Bleu btw and Len/Bruno judging.

Zoe did not win her series I think because of rumours she had had dance lessons prior to the training to give her an edge. Meh - heard the same for Abbey. Zoe did her showdance as a goodbye dance - had it been seen before then may have been different result but Darren vair popular that year.

Spoiler spoiler spoiler xmas strictly spoiler spoiler look away now SPOILER
will be a white xmas...

nennypops Thu 26-Dec-13 22:52:36

Apostrophe, so how does last year's result fit your theory? The one where the more accomplished white dancer lost out in the popular vote to the black dancer?

LeBearPolar Sat 28-Dec-13 11:39:35

Ah, nennypops - I am sure that either Wuldric and/or Apostrophe will be along shortly to argue a case of sexism trumping racism there: black man is superior to white woman but white woman is superior to black woman. White man is top of the pile, surely - which is completely proved by the fact that there have been white male entrants every year of Strictly and they have always won. Er - hang on a minute... hmm

Anyway, in the end neither the "sparky black kid" or the "skirt-swisher" won. But I am sure the fact that Abbey Clancy won is in some way racist.

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