The White Queen

(1000 Posts)
ShadeofViolet Sun 16-Jun-13 17:06:32

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

Arisbottle Sun 16-Jun-13 17:06:58

I am excited.

Me too!

ajandjjmum Sun 16-Jun-13 17:19:05

It'll be good to have something to watch on a Sunday night!

Tiredemma Sun 16-Jun-13 17:22:47

Im so excited about this!!

Movingtimes Sun 16-Jun-13 17:25:57

Looking forward to it as well.

Essexgirlupnorth Sun 16-Jun-13 17:34:39

I am looking forward to it but sure the chararctees will be nothing like they are in my head

chicaguapa Sun 16-Jun-13 17:36:58

I have been trying to find a family tree to refer to as I'll struggle to keep up otherwise. Can anyone find a good one which includes the characters from this?

CMP69 Sun 16-Jun-13 20:06:44

Sooooo excited, loved all the books, but will have to Sky+ it as DH would rather eat his Owen eyeballs than watch "white like that"
Probably why my box is full of the beebs Tudor stuff that was on a couple of weeks ago blush

CMP69 Sun 16-Jun-13 20:07:05

Own obvs!

MummyMastodon Sun 16-Jun-13 20:20:24

I love the version of 'wicked game' they play over the trailer.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 16-Jun-13 21:04:02

Signing in! It's looking promising...

SESthebrave Sun 16-Jun-13 21:08:09

Signing in here too although I'll also be watching on iplayer as DH has vetoed it. Does anyone know how soon it's available?

saintmerryweather Sun 16-Jun-13 21:13:39

cor the kings very forward isnt he?

Horsemad Sun 16-Jun-13 21:19:13

Lovin' it!! grin

Awizardsstaffhasaknobontheend Sun 16-Jun-13 21:21:27

Hoping it is as good as the book!

Awizardsstaffhasaknobontheend Sun 16-Jun-13 21:26:09

Can recommend the Red Queen as well as the partner book. Follows the life of Margaret Beaufort who was the mother of Henry Tudor who married Elizabeth of York (daughter of this Elizabeth Woodville).

DrMcDreamysWife Sun 16-Jun-13 21:33:10

The king is gorgeous! I'm loving it. Trashy history, fabulous!

i know nothing of this but have just started watching it, can anyone give me a quick precis of what the story is?

Yummy! Just the sort of escapism i needed

Ive just turned it off. I loved The Other Boleyn Girl and keep reading Phillipa Gregory on the hope she'll return to that form but now I just find it all rather predictable.

ravenAK Sun 16-Jun-13 21:39:56

I'm unreasonably irritated by all the intrusive wedging in of the back story at every opportunity, tbh - but better than I thought it'd be.

Might give the book a go; I gave up on Phillippa Gregory years ago because she'd fallen in love with the word 'gleamed' - characters were constantly 'gleaming up at' each other! She might be over that now though grin <---- that's a gleam, I think.

Horsemad Sun 16-Jun-13 21:40:06

Agree DrMcD!

Samu2 Sun 16-Jun-13 21:42:45

Nice sex scenes!!!

RustyBear Sun 16-Jun-13 21:44:37

How on earth did he do that dress up in that time? About 20 buttons from the glimpse we got, and he did them up in the time it takes to do up a zip...

Awizardsstaffhasaknobontheend Sun 16-Jun-13 21:45:15

Ok slight warning if you don't want to know anything of the story...

Elizabeth Woodville, widow of a Lancastrian lord, secretly marries Edward IV. Legend has it that she really did deliberately wait by the roadside and that it was a genuine love match and she is meant to have been a real looker. She is the mother of the future Princes in the tower, Henry VII's wife Elizabeth of York and therefore the grandmother of Henry VIII and every future English monarch.
Lots of intrigue and double dealing to come.

piratecat Sun 16-Jun-13 21:48:42

this is great

saintmerryweather Sun 16-Jun-13 21:49:15

the king is jeremy irons son

was that it?!

KnockMeDown Sun 16-Jun-13 22:00:23

I really enjoyed that - will definitely be watching next week!

Horsemad Sun 16-Jun-13 22:02:00

Well, not sure about the language, sounds a bit modern but I've never read any of the books so maybe I'm being picky?

Love the king, verrrry cute! grin

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 16-Jun-13 22:03:45

Loved it!

(But got stupidly obsessed with what appeared to be zips in her dresses too!)

littlemissnormal Sun 16-Jun-13 22:04:22

Is also based on The Kingmakers Daughter which is about Anne Neville, Warwicks daughter who marries Edwards brother Richard and becomes Queen herself.

Cherrypie32 Sun 16-Jun-13 22:04:31

A touch of Eddie Redmayne about the King I thought. Perfect for Sunday night and I'm not one for period drama usually.

Thank you wizard for the storyline fill in smile

SirBoobAlot Sun 16-Jun-13 22:15:06

Well they translating the characters reasonably well from the books, I think... Which again seem to be reasonably accurate to what we know factually.

This should be good smile

littlemissnormal Sun 16-Jun-13 22:17:34

I thought Jacquetta, Elizabeth and Warwick especially had been well cast.

SirBoobAlot Sun 16-Jun-13 22:23:42

Was incredibly impressed with the casting of Jacquetta. She's perfect!

FullOfChoc Sun 16-Jun-13 22:25:15


pardonmytits Sun 16-Jun-13 22:33:03

Ooh will need to catch this on iPlayer at some point. I'm really not Philipa Gregory's biggest fan but I love the period it covers and watch anything about it. Plus, it has James Frain in it, who is just great.

Ragwort Sun 16-Jun-13 22:35:06

Bored senseless after the first 20 mins - fell asleep - I did record it, is it worth watching?

DuchessofMalfi Sun 16-Jun-13 22:36:25

Signing into this thread to add my comment. Gorgeous. Max Irons phwoarr!!!!!grin

chicaguapa Sun 16-Jun-13 22:55:39

I hope there's more Warwick in the next episode. I like a good baddie! grin I've read the books and thought it was a good episode and a promising start.

DorisIsWaiting Sun 16-Jun-13 23:10:24

I watched this expectingh to turn it off within a couple of minutes but I loved it!

The casting seemed great, and lots of female focus rather than the men which is quite refreshing.

BadRoly Sun 16-Jun-13 23:20:56

I'm another fan who wasn't disappointed (except by the zipping up bit - perhaps kings have very nimble and speedy fingers though?!) grin

Sleepyfergus Sun 16-Jun-13 23:28:45

I really enjoyed it, and the King is verrrrrrrrry easy on the eye!

Wetwood656 Sun 16-Jun-13 23:39:47

Tbf the king had had lots of practice with dresses so was probably very quick

Ellenora5 Mon 17-Jun-13 00:03:55

I enjoyed it, looking forward to next week, nice to have something decent to watch on a Sunday.

Speaking of the Irons family acting dynasty - The Borgias final series starts on Sky Atlantic tonight. Anyone going to watch? smile

Loved The White Queen, btw.

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 17-Jun-13 08:59:43

It was good, and gosh he's good looking!

Is the lady playing Elizabeth actually English? Once or twice she sounded a bit like a Norwegian friend of mine, accent-wise. She has gorgeous hair.

Sunnymeg Mon 17-Jun-13 10:00:11

I enjoyed it, but DH was bored. I hope they crack on with the narrative in the next episode, that might interest him more.

Hazelbrowneyes Mon 17-Jun-13 10:02:37

Loved it, can't wait until the next episode.

FlamingoBingo1 Mon 17-Jun-13 10:05:37

It would have been laces, not buttons, so would just need tightening then tying.

RustyBear Mon 17-Jun-13 10:16:44

There were definite holes, like button holes, on the side of the opening that you could see -no laces visible but he did it up far faster than would actually have been possible, whether they were laces or buttons!

Liked it a lot and very similar to the books so far. Poor James Frain only seems to get cast as the baddie in historical drama but he is very good at it smile

Agree about the casting of Jacquetta, fantastic. Does she remind anyone else of Charlotte Rampling?

I found that really disappointing - soft porn, mushy, and what does Warwick have on his head? Won't bother next week, even though I loved the books.

LaVolcan Mon 17-Jun-13 11:44:33

Is the lady playing Elizabeth actually English? Once or twice she sounded a bit like a Norwegian friend of mine, accent-wise.

Swedish with an English mother, according to the Guardian, so you are not far wrong with the accent.

tobiasfunke Mon 17-Jun-13 11:54:20

I hated it and I love a bit of history lite. The script seemed really stilted and had absolutely no depth to it. DH and I sat and giggled all the way through. Whats her chops was hilarious when she was having one of her visions.
Warwick went all a bit TOWIE at one point.

Yes yes to Warwick/Towie! grin

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 17-Jun-13 12:26:34

Thank you LaVolcan smile

Wasn't the little blond boy playing Richard sweet? He had lovely curls.

ShadeofViolet Mon 17-Jun-13 13:19:59

Just caught up with it as missed it last night.

I thought it was brilliant and the casting was perfect, Margaret Tudor looks exactly how I would picture her.

I loved it. I was so true to the book too.
Can't wait for next week....did think Elizabeth would have been more stunning though. She is pretty yes, but I had imagined a real stunner to stop a king in his tracks and she is a bit ordinary.
Not that I am a king stopper myself....

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 17-Jun-13 13:51:53

Just watched it on iplayer. I liked it. I've just finished watching the tudors re-run on BBC2 and can't get my head around Cromwell being in this too grin. Edward looks too young and skinny to be king though. I'm off to see Hampton Court Palace in a few weeks to indulge my new found interest in this sort of thing. And The White Queen fits in nicely with my interest I'm not very good with timelines yet.

JazzDalek Mon 17-Jun-13 13:55:38

I really enjoyed it, perfect for a Sunday evening (and may help to ease my Game of Thrones withdrawal symptoms sad )

I went into it blind - have never read the books and (shamefully) don't know any of the history involved - so have no preconceptions.

So far seems very similar to The Tudors, which I enjoyed for its trashiness and costumes and pretty people grin

Delighted as always to see James Frain. Would take him over the King any day didn't mean that to sound so dirty but what the hell

noblegiraffe Mon 17-Jun-13 13:57:44

My first comment was 'she's not pretty enough'

The MIL scene was fantastic, hope to see plenty more of her.

It's so nice to see a historical drama where we follow the women. Edward goes off to war and we don't have to sit through any boring battle scenes. Hurrah.

DuchessofMalfi Mon 17-Jun-13 14:52:12

I was trying to get to grips with the timeline and work out where she came in history, not being very good at history blush. According to the brief explanation in the Radio Times, she was Henry VIII's grandmother. Her daughter married Henry VII and they were the parents of Henry VIII. So that explains that then grin

Fiderer Mon 17-Jun-13 15:42:51

It was enjoyable tosh - my Toshometer™ hasn't binged so high since Downton finished grin

I found her intonation odd at times and having read here now that she has a Swedish mother, it explains why. Lovely to look at, as are lots of the men.

I really liked her nightgown. I haven't worn one since I was about seven and I don't want it to sleep in. I want it to float about a Tudor garden in looking winsome and then for a knightly chap to dismount his horse and flick back his cloak like the king did.

It looked really good. I thought it might be like GoT, all muddy brown but that strong green and the house and garden were jolly nice. <expat tinted spectacles>

GhostOfTheRobot Mon 17-Jun-13 15:44:18

Agree with all the comments regarding the refreshing change to focusing on the female protagonists of that period for a change.
I loved Janet Mcteer as Jaquetta. What a mother figure! Her exchange with Cecily in particular.

I'm not sure i like the magical aspect of it. It's a bit unintentionally funny, as someone said up thread. Can't they just be intelligent women instead of woo?

KikeriFreedomCastle Mon 17-Jun-13 17:00:03

I thought the casting was perfect too.

NQP - I'll be watching Borgias too. Obviously it has its faults, but I've watched two series so far and have oddly been drawn in.

sugarandspite Mon 17-Jun-13 17:42:57

The thing about the magic though - a few years later when Warwick is fighting Edward, he actually arrests Jacquetta on a claim of witchcraft. He lets her go without charge but there is a record of this, and earlier rumours at the French court too.

Loved the casting of her and Warwick too!

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 17-Jun-13 17:55:43

I think it's superstition more than actual woo. Being descended from a water goddess is a charming after dinner story and makes you seem more interesting grin

And if your children will quite possibly die, or things go against your family that as women you maybe can't do much about, why shouldn't you try and influence tjr world by magic? Other than the possibility of being executed as a witch of course I thought the scrying was OTT though.

hollyisalovelyname Mon 17-Jun-13 20:10:04

It's really good. I'm enjoying it. Isn't Max Irons the spitting image of his mum, with his dad's eye colour.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Mon 17-Jun-13 20:20:53

Now you mention Max Iron's mum [doh] I can see his likeness there, 'cos I just couldn't see his dad there at all. James Frain (thanks for the name, I was struggling, hence the 'cromwell' bit) seems a bit less weasily so far in this. A bit more about him, none of the bowing and scraping he did in The Tudors.

waikikamookau Mon 17-Jun-13 20:42:03

planning to watch it tonight, on I player. happy this thread sounds positive

SuburbanCrofter Mon 17-Jun-13 21:08:34

I knew Max Irons ever so slightly when he was a child, and it feels a bit wrong watching him in sex scenes!!

I thought it was good though.

(He seemed a nice, well-bought up kid btw - no gossip!)

MummyMastodon Mon 17-Jun-13 22:07:13

hmm, Elizabeth was very pretty, but not the luminous beauty I'd envisaged. She was a bit too freckly and 'girl next door'.

<of course I myself am flawless and exquisite, oh yes>

Fiderer Mon 17-Jun-13 22:09:43

Mummy me too.

<puts on floaty gown>
<waits at chapel for sunrise>

ShadeofViolet Mon 17-Jun-13 22:39:59

There was plenty at the time who thought Jacquetta was a witch though, and that Elizabeth had put a spell on Edward, so although it may have been played up a bit, there is some historical basis to it.

GhostOfTheRobot Tue 18-Jun-13 09:54:38

Yes, I remember the witchcraft accusations.
I'm sure it's going to crop up later on as part of an attack on the Woodvilles so has relevance I just wish it had been done in a different way.

chicaguapa Tue 18-Jun-13 13:22:59

I wish there had been fewer Henrys, Edwards and Richards in those days as I've been trying to gen up on the War of the Roses and keep getting lost on who is who! Now I know why I didn't do History, even though I find it really interesting.

guineapiglet Tue 18-Jun-13 14:21:55

Well first I would like to rant about the fact that there are two decent dramas on at EXACTLY the same time- why does that always happen - ??

The Returned is really good, but I do love an historical drama, and have always loved this period of history - it is just so underwhelmingly studied at school - if at all, and you would have thought all the interest in Kings and carparks might have resurrected a national interest in the Wars of the Roses. I thought the casting was pretty good, I love Janet McTeer, and the costumes and setting were well chosen. I did have few problems with the script being a bit plodding and obvious, but I haven't read the book so will hope it is improved as the series goes on. I seem to recall Edward's brother/cousin goes on to become Richard IIIrd, the one who murdered (allegedly) the two princes, ( who are Edward and Elizabeth's children?). I have a wonderful book by Antonia Fraser on English Kings and Queens and am going to go and reread that period again.

My absolute dream would be for some wise BBC type to commisson an ongoing history series, going back to the Saxons and logically doing a decent drama through the ages, but a serious, non dumbed down one, ( obviously not dry and boring, )but at least trying to convey a coherent sense of history and how everyone links into everyone else, through family lines, dynasties, clans etc, so we could understand how it all fits together. There are always bits of history skipped over or studied 2 or 3 times over so our kids have no sense of a time line. Horrible Histories has done an amazing job rekindling and stimulating interest in history in a brilliant way, but it would be nice to have something more adult, but just as informative, if that makes sense!

( an aside but does anyone know anything about The Vikings new series/drama? IT looks fab.)

ShadeofViolet Tue 18-Jun-13 14:32:50

I think its only available via LoveFilm sad

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 18-Jun-13 14:42:44

"( an aside but does anyone know anything about The Vikings new series/drama? IT looks fab.)"

Yes, it is fab. Very silly - it is based on a legend - but well made and great fun.

Didn't think much of TWQ though. Elizabeth Woodville came across as a grown up Sansa Stark. And the woo element was embarrassing to watch.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Tue 18-Jun-13 17:23:25

Really? I thought she had far more sexual awareness than Sansa (little that she has!) and far more control about what is going on around her (again, not a great deal of that either!)

whatwoulddexterdo Tue 18-Jun-13 17:59:49

Did anyone notice how lovely Elizabeth's nails were?
Loved her night own, quite fancy one myself.
I find it strange that she has little interest in her sons.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 18-Jun-13 18:28:59

ShipwreckedAndComatose She has two children so I'd expect her to be more sexually aware, but she still came across as sappy. From what I know about history, I imagined the real Elizabeth to be far more sensible and shrewd; in this she seems a bit of a drip and quite immature.

To be fair though, I haven't read the book, so it's possible it's due to acting/direction, not that actual character was written that way.

slalomsuki Tue 18-Jun-13 18:54:14

Just read the book so found it quite enjoyable if a little soap like. Some of the casting was good but the settings were not like I imagined.

Warwick wasn't as old as I thought nor his daughters quite as present as they seemed in the book

Will stick with it though

WhereMyMilk Tue 18-Jun-13 19:27:20

Have read all three books this is based on:lady of the rivers; White queen and red queen-can't wait for next wk!

ShipwreckedAndComatose Tue 18-Jun-13 19:35:29

I've read the books. I think that Elizabeth grows as a character through the book and that she is relying on her mother's superior experience of court life and intrigue in the early part of the book. her mum is much more high born than her dad. yes, she was married before but this is a whole different level.

However, I also think that Phillipa Gregory takes quite a lot of liberties in her writing! It's difficult to know what many of these real life people were actually thinking and feeling.. We can only guess.

noblegiraffe Tue 18-Jun-13 19:43:20

I don't think the series covers the Lady of the Rivers, that all happened before this. It does include the Kingmakers Daughters so I guess we'll be seeing more of them.

hollyisalovelyname Tue 18-Jun-13 23:34:13

Whatwoulddexterdo- i noticed her nails too. I thought it looked like she had nail polish on!!!

hattymattie Wed 19-Jun-13 21:09:40

I'm also annoyed about the clash with Returned. There is nothing on TV Tuesday and Wednesday. However we streamed the White Queen so all good. Very enjoyable although have spent a lot of time since unravelling and researching the War of the Roses which does indeed seem more complicated than Game of Thrones.

OrangeFireandGoldashes Wed 19-Jun-13 21:36:13

It was okay. Typical soapy Tudory history-lite, bit too clean and 'perfect' (very Merlinesque in that regard) and I'm obviously in the minority as I didn't find Max Irons convincing as Edward IV - he should be taller, blonder, more dazzling, more regal.

I'll stick with it as I love the period; I just have to keep reminding myself it's based on hysterical historical and not always hugely accurate fiction, not historical fact.

CMP69 Thu 20-Jun-13 15:08:25

I loved it, but I love the whole York/Tudor period and Phillipa Gregory's books. Couldn't go wrong really grin

susiedaisy Thu 20-Jun-13 21:18:08

Just marking my place, loved the Tudors, the pillars of the earth etc so hoping I'm going to enjoy this as much.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 20-Jun-13 22:05:42

Marking my place. I enjoyed it.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 23-Jun-13 21:01:16
Awizardsstaffhasaknobontheend Sun 23-Jun-13 21:10:24

Ok, I love the books and a bit of historical trash is always great....but really can the BBC make a bit more effort please to keep to the period? Tudor rose badges for the queens coranation!? Not for another 20-30 years I think!

Awizardsstaffhasaknobontheend Sun 23-Jun-13 21:10:47


ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 23-Jun-13 21:16:27

I know!

It's lax beyond belief

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sun 23-Jun-13 21:17:54

Oh, I love it though.

I'm fidgeting until this week's episode comes up on iplayer.

nipersvest Sun 23-Jun-13 21:18:58

i spotted the zips and clothes pegs last week, am finding the bad costume and set design distracting from the story now, everything is just too clean for the 1400's. it looks like it's been made on a shoestring budget but i have read it's cost the beep millions to put together.

Alconleigh Sun 23-Jun-13 21:32:11

Margaret Beaufort was 13 when she had Henry VII. He is a small boy in this, but that actress is 30 if she's a day, surely.

Arisbottle Sun 23-Jun-13 21:35:01

They are blending both of Gregory's books, red and white queen.

nipersvest Sun 23-Jun-13 21:37:00

those cards with pictures on elizabeth's mother was using looked like they'd been drawn using ye olde felt tip pens.

Ellenora5 Sun 23-Jun-13 21:38:44

I'm getting confused to be honest, James Frain throws me completely, I keep thinking he is Cromwell, why does Margaret Beaufort not live with her son

Ellenora5 Sun 23-Jun-13 21:39:57

And who is his father

His father is Edmund Tudor who is dead. He lives with Jasper Tudor, his uncle and Margaret Beaufort's brother in law. She is remarried to Henry Stafford.
The age of Margaret Beaufort is annoying me as are the very clean white interior walls next to so many candles. Not a trace of soot!

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 23-Jun-13 21:45:19

His father was Edmund Tutor, Jasper Tudor's elder brother. He married Margaret when she was about 13 but died a few years later. Elizabeth had to remarry for political reasons and her son was given over to Jasper to raise.
later on, it became important for Jasper to get Henry out of the country as he was the only Lancaster claimant left

HesterShaw Sun 23-Jun-13 21:51:00


I adore this period of history. The dialogue is stupid and clunky and clumsy.

Arisbottle Sun 23-Jun-13 21:53:29

It is very badly acted as well

Cherrypie32 Sun 23-Jun-13 21:58:00

Has she now had 3 daughters and if so, and therefore a period of 5 years or so have passed why was Henry Tudor the little boy still the same age? Am I being daft?

MummyMastodon Sun 23-Jun-13 21:58:02

Eh? we saw Margaret Beaufort's son, a little boy. Then several years pass, Elizabeth has three girls, her sons from her previous marriage grow up quite a bit (new actors), but we then see Margaret Beaufort's son again, and he's still the same little boy...

KikeriFreedomCastle Sun 23-Jun-13 21:58:21

I'm guiltily enjoying it. But it is bad, I agree, and lack of attention to period detail. Better than the books, though, which are really not very well written, but also vaguely entertaining.

MummyMastodon Sun 23-Jun-13 21:59:28

x post, Cherrypie, I was thinking I must have missed something, but I'm sure that was what happened.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 23-Jun-13 22:00:20

Classic grin

nipersvest Sun 23-Jun-13 22:01:50

margaret beaufort and her husband travel for miles to visit her son, and while they are there, her husband receives a letter??

it seems horse powered royal mail was very efficient back then?!

Cherrypie32 Sun 23-Jun-13 22:03:13

Glad it's not just me Mummy! Very bizarre continuity error surely smile

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Sun 23-Jun-13 22:03:54

Letter post was very quick, FWIW.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 23-Jun-13 22:06:04

I can't help feeling they really haven't thought this through.

Too sloppy. Nice to look at. But too sloppy.

Ellenora5 Sun 23-Jun-13 22:11:20

Oh thanks girls, think I have it now, well until the little lad that never grew in three years was on again, and Elizabeth had 3 daughters in three years yet it looks like at least two years between each one, hmmm, not sure I will be following this and I was so looking forward to it last week, also I agree it looks like the whole set has been doused in domestos.

AndiPandi Sun 23-Jun-13 22:16:16

And Elizabeth had nail ran ish on?!

AndiPandi Sun 23-Jun-13 22:16:32

Sorry ail varnish

AndiPandi Sun 23-Jun-13 22:17:02

Bollocks! Nail varnish

minnehaha Sun 23-Jun-13 22:26:11

Agree with HesterShaw - this is ABYSMAL
Shocked at the praise for this f**king mess of a programm.e

Pleasenomorepeppa Sun 23-Jun-13 22:32:08

I was impressed by Elizabeths french manicure & baffled by the non ageing Henry Tudor. I'm glad it's not just me noticing these things!
I kept thinking French & Saunders were going to pop up doing one of their parodies grin.

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 24-Jun-13 00:15:17

I thought that about the children. The youngest wasn't a baby even, when it might have just worked. Also noticed un-aging Henry Tudor (I did wonder whether that had been filmed to put in earlier, but actually, it couldn't have been could it, because he was getting his title back?) and Margaret Beaufort does not look 18/19.

The birth bit confused me too. Wouldn't she have been in confinement rather than wandering around the palace? I was hoping we'd avoid a birth scene...

Sleepyfergus Mon 24-Jun-13 05:33:08

Trying to see past the inconsistencies and the hilarious set/clothes/manicures and yes to whoever said its too 'clean' - I totally get you, it's just all too 'slick'. And I also noticed the children who were born in 3 years yet looked like it was more like a 5/6 year period. And also why wasn't she in a darkened room for ages awaiting the birth? It was very soap style, chat chat twinge = baby! and would they really have had a sponge or did they get that in Ye Olde Boots?

I find her relationship with her mum a bit odd, very chatty like bessie mates like where from Hollyoaks or something.

Still, it's easy going enough for a non brainer on a school night and Max Irons is quite yummy even if he doesn't age.

Awizardsstaffhasaknobontheend Mon 24-Jun-13 07:58:31

Dear God, I found myself thinking that this made mini series The Tudors look good. Now while that over did the sexual content and Henry never really aged, at least the sets, costumes and most of the dialogue felt appropriate. This is a cheap, school production of a drama. Very disappointed.

Gracelo Mon 24-Jun-13 08:41:05

Is anybody else getting worried about the Wolf Hall adaptation the BBC is doing after watching this? If they mess up Wolf Hall I'm going to cry.

susiedaisy Mon 24-Jun-13 08:43:55

I had high hopes for this and was really looking forward to it, so disappointed.

ProfYaffle Mon 24-Jun-13 09:25:00

I agree, I'm getting totally distracted by the inaccuracies. If Elizabeth had 3 children in 3 years, the eldest would be 3 and the youngest a baby, but the youngest looked about 2! confused I'm also spotting far too many concrete steps, modern railings etc The crowd scenes were abysmal, really tight, cheap shots so they didn't have to go the expense of dressing a whole street.

polyhymnia Mon 24-Jun-13 09:35:33

I think it's dreadful - it makes The Tudors and the Borgias look brilliant.

Agree that I'm also getting worried about what they'll do to 'Wolf Hall'.

expatinscotland Mon 24-Jun-13 09:48:17

The second episode was crap. It went downhill fast.

Saltire Mon 24-Jun-13 09:55:04

I quite enjoyed the first episode but the inaccuracies of it all really annoyed me in teh second. Especially the birth of the first child, it was like a scene from one Born Every Minute.

AnonYonimousBird Mon 24-Jun-13 09:56:25

What utter tripe! We gave it the benefit of the doubt after Episode One, so bemused that we thought it can only get better.

Last night's was plain ridiculous. It does not translate into a television programme at all.

nipersvest Mon 24-Jun-13 10:32:49

the bbc made the hollow crown didn't they?, how did they manage to make that good and yet make this sooooooo bad?

BanoffeeSplitz Mon 24-Jun-13 10:40:23

"It's Warwick - he's kingmaking again!"

yy to French & Saunders popping up, I thought it was going to turn into Blackadder just then.

HesterShaw Mon 24-Jun-13 11:09:11

That is actually the worst line in the history of television. At that point my outrage turned to mocking laughter.

GhostOfTheRobot Mon 24-Jun-13 11:21:59

So sorry that this program is turning into a bit of a farce.
I was so looking forward to it but as others have mentioned it's so bright and immaculately clean everywhere, no soot, muck or filth. It doesn't "take you there" at all. Where's the atmosphere? I'm not saying dirt = a great show but it feels so sterile. The language is very simplistic too.
Am I being too demanding?

TBH Game of Thrones might have ruined pretty much every show for me that is one grubby production!

Ps. Max Irons is rather nice though and the moody guy playing Richard too so will probably have watch it out...wink

wigglybeezer Mon 24-Jun-13 11:24:11

I had to get my copy of Katherine by Anya Seton out to look at the family tree in that to make any sense of the plot ( but then I learnt Scottish history in school and am a bit vague on the War of the Roses).

noblegiraffe Mon 24-Jun-13 11:32:52

My DH watching it doesn't have a clue what's going on, and having read the books I can fill him in. When Warwick turned up with Henry he was baffled, and Margaret Beaufort is just completely inexplicably awful.
He spends most of the time going 'who's that?'

Surely a bit more exposition of the history wouldn't hurt?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 24-Jun-13 11:34:20

I really didn't enjoy this last episode. Agree Margaret Beaufort is terrible.

BanoffeeSplitz Mon 24-Jun-13 12:11:20

Margaret Beaufort being a badly written loon is depressing because a) I love Amanda Hale - she was great in The Crimson Petal and the White, and great fun in Rev and Being Human and b) the real Margaret Beaufort was much more interesting than that.

Though tbf I'm sure the real life versions of everyone in this were a lot less Hollyoaks than they appear in The White Queen.

BanoffeeSplitz Mon 24-Jun-13 12:13:20

And Max Irons' toothy grin reminds me of Prince William, which means I can't take him seriously with a gilt crown on his head, it's like a really dreadful roleplaying game gone wrong.

HesterShaw Mon 24-Jun-13 12:38:32

Margaret Beaufort was a proper, serious scholar. Her depiction here is simply silly.

Has anyone read the Kingmaker's Daughter?

moominmaiden Mon 24-Jun-13 13:28:02

The most baffling thing I've noticed so far is that while the women are manicured, most of the men have dirty fingernails.

How exactly are they getting them dirty?! There is no dirt! Even the forests look landscaped...

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 24-Jun-13 13:30:38

I didn't like the visions bit with MB. Is that based on anything? As you say, hester, I would have thought she'd be much more serious and methodical. But maybe that's an anachronistic attitude.

I did quite like the bit where she says her husband (is that right?) is teaching her Latin, that was nice - though I wondered honestly if it was very likely he'd know more Latin than her, since she ended up knowing enough to follow her prayerbook rubrics and that's as much as a lot of laymen would have known, I reckon.

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 24-Jun-13 13:43:38

I've just bought it Hester, since I'd read the other two, I thought I may as well.

Some of the ages are a bit out though. Not just Margaret Beaufort, but I think Anne Neville is a bit too old as well. She should only be one or two years older than Catherine Woodville (the one getting married).

Saltire Mon 24-Jun-13 14:36:35

I have read the Kingmakers Daughter. It was ok, in pretty much the same vein as the other 2. Theres now another book in the series out
called The White Princess, which is the story of Elizabeth of York.

I much prefer the factual stuff though, I am reading Blood Sisters - the Women behind the War of the Roses.

expatinscotland Mon 24-Jun-13 14:54:34

Beaufort, however, was the MIL from Hell! Elizabeth of York was an obedient wife, however, whom it appears Henry loved.

I have never read any of these books, however, because I dont't care for historical fiction.

polyhymnia Mon 24-Jun-13 15:29:04

Someone asked why the Hollow Crown was so much better (I agree it was wonderful).

Perhaps because the script for that was written by Shakespeare but the script for this by someone who's an even worse writer than Gregory herself (who I don't rate, I'm afraid)??

Tiredemma Mon 24-Jun-13 15:54:47

Im so disappointed. My absolute most favourite period in History - I do not 'recognise' any of the characters.

agree that it makes 'The Tudors' Series look amazing

Fiderer Mon 24-Jun-13 16:17:34

That was even more absolute tosh - blimey. The dialogue is dire, I'd expect better from a 6th form play.

Daftest for me was Isabel rushing to her sister to pant "Daddy only married me to Richard (?) for political reasons". After doing her eyes narrowed act all episode and every mother in the court repeating same to their daughters every 5 mins.

I think it's a hoot though as I know nothing of the time - except for reading Josephine Tey's "The Daughter of Time" and hearing it on what was then Radio 7. Really enjoyed it but could never get my head around the who's who.

Can really understand why those who know more about the people and time are appalled. If it were Wodehouse being massacred (witness the last Blandings disaster) I'd feel the same.

expatinscotland Mon 24-Jun-13 16:52:02

Women of rank expected to have marriages arranged. They were property of men.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 24-Jun-13 17:24:54

Yes, it was the lust love match between Edward and Elizabeth that was frowned upon rather than the idea of a political match.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 24-Jun-13 17:29:59

Why don't you like historical fiction then, expat? (Asking because it seems an odd thing to say on this thread).

OMG this is awful.
I say this as someone who knew all the inaccuracies in The Tudors and still bought the box set confused
I had to turn the TV off and I am afeared too about what the Beeb will do to Wolfhall shock

Fiderer Mon 24-Jun-13 17:48:14

Yes, women were the property of men and they grew up knowing that. Particularly those at court.

That your father planned to overthrow the king by your marriage may admittedly come as a shock but as she simpered, that he didn't think of her when he arranged the marriage was daft.

guineapiglet Mon 24-Jun-13 21:24:11

Well, like most of you , have watched and feel very let down by it it is so one dimensional and obviously done on a very small budget....such a shame as they could have done so much more to make the characters much deeper and more interesting.... With all the research and literature on the period its such a shame they have made it so lifeless.

IF they do this to Wolf Hall we shall demand our licence fee back!

LineRunner Mon 24-Jun-13 21:26:32

What a load of rubbish.

Colyngbourne Mon 24-Jun-13 22:10:00

Eliz of York might have been "obedient" to Tudor but apparently she also racked up huge gambling debts - not quite so pure after all. And she didn't do much to stop her husband reducing her mother's state to penury and essentially confining her. No love lost between those two, I reckon.

Both the books and the TV series are appalling - bad history (Henry Tudor wasn't Henry VI's nephew, Edw wasn't present at half the events they have created; the ages are horrendously wrong (Anne Neville supposed to be 8 yrs old in the first episode, and Richard of Gloucester 12; Tudor is meant to be only four years younger than Richard of Gloucester). And they have made Cecily Neville into an old bag, which she definitely wasn't. Both the BBC and those involved should be ashamed. Poor acting, poor costumes. Only James Frayn and the greyhounds are doing a decent job.

nipersvest Mon 24-Jun-13 22:17:18

i had to go back and watch episode 1 again as someone posted about this previously, and yes, elizabeth's mother does indeed whip out a pair of scissors from the pocket to cut the thread.

pookamoo Mon 24-Jun-13 22:45:55

I'm a bit confused about the Princes in the Tower. I thought they were supposed to be the sons of Edward IV and Elizabeth (later proclaimed illegitemate) but in the White Queen they are Elizabeth's sons from her previous marriage.

Can someone who knows what they are talking about unlike me blush enlighten me?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 24-Jun-13 22:48:17

I didn't get that from White Queen?

The princes in the tower were Elizabeth and Edward's sons. I don't think the implication with Elizabeth's older sons is that they're those princes, it's just that she is scared for them.

harryhausen Mon 24-Jun-13 22:49:29

Pookamoo, I haven't read the book, but I believe Elizabeth went on to have 10 children to Edward (bit if an amateur history buff). They must be the princes in the tower. Yet to be born in the programme?

Asheth Mon 24-Jun-13 23:12:53

Henry Tudor was Henry VI's nephew. Catherine of France married Henry V and had a son Henry VI. But after Henry V died she had an affair/secret marriage to Owen Tudor. So Jasper and Edmund Tudor were half brothers to Henry VI. But Henry Tudor's claim to the throne came through his mother Margaret Beaufort, who was descended from John of Gaunt.... the family relationships of this period are very confusing! They all seem to be related!

pookamoo Mon 24-Jun-13 23:18:37

AH that would explain it. I've just been looking at Wikipedia, and I can see where I got it from: Her sons from the first marriage were called Thomas and Richard, and the princes in the tower were called Edward and Richard.

They really could have done with a baby names thread, couldn't they? Gets so confusing all having the same names! grin

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 24-Jun-13 23:19:14

Her sons at the moment are from her first marriage, they're Thomas and Richard Grey.

She later has Edward, Richard (clearly short on baby names...) and George (who died as a toddler). Edward and Richard are the princes in the tower.

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 24-Jun-13 23:20:14

And just to confuse you more, Edward, Richard and George are the three York princes. So her and Edward's sons have the same names as their father and uncles grin.

Alconleigh Mon 24-Jun-13 23:25:11

I so enjoyed reading The Sunne in Splendour by Sharon Penman that I was really looking forward to this. I am not bothering with episode 3, it's that bad.

Triumphoveradversity Mon 24-Jun-13 23:37:27

I have recently watched The Tudors on lovefilm, I really didn't think anything could be dafter and less realistic.

It's too clean and when Margaret prostrates on the floor of the chapel the memorial looks like it is from the 18th century.

It's BBC budget cuts, I'm half expecting to see armour made from recycled bits of cybermen.

I actually enjoyed The Tudors, I'm struggling with this.

Gracelo Tue 25-Jun-13 06:46:20

to see armour made from recycled bits of cybermen Now that would make the whole thing a lot more fun. smile
I find most of the acting atrocious, especially Edward, Jeremy Iron's son, based on this I don't think he inherited his parents' talents. In the Hollow Crown everybody was at least very good and some were brilliant. Ben Wishaw as Richard II was great (one of my favourite performances ever but I do like TW rather a lot), Rory Kinnear was very good, Jeremy Irons and Tom Hiddlestone were excellent, no comparison to the performances in TWQ.

Fiderer Tue 25-Jun-13 08:11:38

grin at Triumph's cybermen.

An Ood or two strumming a lyre might cheer things up too. Or some bicycling midwives.

Gracelo Tue 25-Jun-13 08:28:41

Some weeping angels might not look entirely out of place.

guineapiglet Tue 25-Jun-13 08:47:20

Does anyone remember 'the devil's whore'? That was so well done, pretty accurate, dirty and gory and conveyed the sense of 'history' so authentically. Great cast: john simm, michael fassbender, andrea riseborough etc...we rewatch it quite often...cant believe there hasnt been a civil war drama, such an interesting time...

harryhausen Tue 25-Jun-13 09:47:13

Guineapiglet, I watched that recently on 4onDemand. It was great wasn't it. Really fascinating story.

Ellenora5 Tue 25-Jun-13 10:25:58

grin at bicycling midwives, brill, I now have visions of Chummy and Co tearing around the castle looking for babies to be born, at least it's a lot cleaner than the East end was portrayed in Call the Midwife.

Finallygotaroundtoit Tue 25-Jun-13 13:29:03

Loving the Queen's manicure, veneered teeth and ability to give birth to toddlers.

She can also levitate - sometimes her head is level to the King's chest, othertimes his nose.

Perhaps she sometimes wears stilletos ? confused

LineRunner Tue 25-Jun-13 13:46:48

I thought the novel was pushing it a bit, but the tv show (and it is a show) is drivel.

Of the casting, I can only assume that many of them are 'connected', especially the leads.

nipersvest Tue 25-Jun-13 13:50:25

philippa gregory is quoted as saying the tv series is just as she imagined, doesn't say a lot about her books if this is the level she's pitching at.

nipersvest Tue 25-Jun-13 13:52:17

and margaret beaufort is being so overacted it's just cringe making

BanoffeeSplitz Tue 25-Jun-13 13:53:51

Yes - the BBC can do authentically dirty & realistic perfectly well when it wants to, which makes me hmm about what on earth they think they're up to with this one.

If the writing & characterisation was better, I'd wonder if they were going for a painting / stained glass kind of effect (someone earlier mentioned a Holbein painting). Given the quality of the writing I think they're just trying for Chicklit, which is a bit crap.

LineRunner Tue 25-Jun-13 14:08:41

I did read this and also The Kingmaker's Daughter. The latter was particularly a struggle to finish. Such a boring monotone 'voice'.

It's all going downhill.

Aftereightsarenolongermine Tue 25-Jun-13 14:53:37

One word - rubbish.

I can think of several more but I've wasted enough of my life on this drivel as it is.

tobiasfunke Tue 25-Jun-13 15:21:29

Apparently it cost a staggering £25 million to make.
I'm not actually seeing where that was spent. Not on the extras. There appears to be about 2 courtiers and perhaps 1 servant hanging about.
It is one colossal waste of money.
It's of the lets not make it too intellectually taxing school of period drama.
I bet you it was made for the American 'Downton' mass market. God help them.

Oblomov Tue 25-Jun-13 16:36:35

Thought it was good.
Glad that this is a 10 part'er, to get our teeth into.

Fiderer Tue 25-Jun-13 16:44:19

Yes, it's like "Downton with Doublets"

That might not be historically accurate but then again, the doublets may have zips or velcro grin

hollyisalovelyname Tue 25-Jun-13 17:42:51

I think Max Irons, playing Edward is very easy on the eye but not well cast- he is not authoritive enough. He appears a bit weak and watery. The little boy- Henry ( Margaret Beaufort's son) didn't age at all in 2 or 3 years - very strange!!! Very poor work by whoever is in charge of that sort of thing in a production- is it the director's fault? Still I'll keep on watching, at least it doesn't end on a cliff hanger like 'The Fall' !

mehefin Tue 25-Jun-13 17:46:06

Thinking about some people being acted older than they actually were at the time of these events I wondered whether having gone down the road of 'golden lit ' sex scenes for Elizabeth and Edward there was then a certain discomfort that some very young girls were married and having children.

Good point mehefin

nipersvest Tue 25-Jun-13 18:23:11

i can live with them making characters older than the book (and in this case, reality!), game of thrones did the same to make it more palatable.

MummyMastodon Tue 25-Jun-13 20:21:53

*She can also levitate - sometimes her head is level to the King's chest, othertimes his nose.

Perhaps she sometimes wears stilletos*

Yes, I noticed that last week, it was although she sometimes stood on a box.

I like Margaret Beaufort, though, she has amazing pale skin.

ChoudeBruxelles Tue 25-Jun-13 20:23:58

I'm disappointed by it.

chicaguapa Wed 26-Jun-13 07:38:18

I'm really enjoying it and the blurb did say that it wouldn't be accurate in the interests of making it more interesting to watch. I've read the PG books but that's all I know about the War of the Roses so I'm not picking up the things the rest of you are.

But I couldn't watch the Tudors because I knew the period too well and became fixated on the historical inaccuracies. So I can understand why some people are struggling with it. But I like it so far and it's just right for Sunday evening.

HairpinsAndLacquer Wed 26-Jun-13 13:18:48

I'm just hoping we don't see any more births, especially after reading her descriptions of some! Fortunately we won't see Henry Tudor's, since he's already born.

I think you're probably right about the ages, girls getting married at twelve isn't really that good to think about.

moisturiser Wed 26-Jun-13 13:40:18

I'm finding it all a bit clunky but I've still been sucked in. It is funny how beauty is subjective though because whereas some people are saying the actress playing EW is not pretty enough, I can't take my eyes off her. I think she is stunning.

I think I need to read the books now. It might all be tosh but it's fun tosh.

higgle Wed 26-Jun-13 14:00:10

Surely if Henry the 7th to be is aged about five his mother, Margaret Beaufort, should be no older than 19? I must say that to follow it properly (am I very dense?) I need to have Alison Weir's fact book about who lived when and was married to who etc. to hand and a coloured picture book of the kings and queens of England.

comelywenchlywoo Wed 26-Jun-13 14:09:12

SO glad I'm not the only one annoyed by the nail polish and speedy mail service (how were they all writing and sending letters whilst being captured and beheaded?)


ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 26-Jun-13 16:06:55

You are right higgle!

I do love the actress who plays Margaret though, she has been fantastic in other things

EasyToEatTiger Wed 26-Jun-13 18:37:00

I had to read a history book to understand what on earth all those people were doing there. The White Queen was the mother of the Princes in the Tower. I don't think the king lasted very long. He got ill. His younger brother put his nephews in the tower and took the throne. Ah, Richard iii. They weren't very nice to each other!

LaQueen Wed 26-Jun-13 18:53:51

I'm enjoying it.

I don't think Margaret Beaufort is over-acted. She was a religious zealot, who desperately had wanted to be a nun, before she was married off at 12 to Edmund Tudor. As an adult she was obsessed with her son becoming king, and moved Heaven & Earth to help him.

There was no official postal service, obviously. However, wealthy magnates used courier riders, riding in relay, swapping horses every 15 miles or so. Hence, why a letter could get from London to Edinburgh in just a few days.

Nail polish was actually know in the 15th century. Anne Neville, who went on to be Richard III's Queen, was reputedly very vain of her 'long enamelled nails' as I recall hmm

sugarandspite Wed 26-Jun-13 19:05:49

Hairpins I don't know how much of it they will show but there is a rather nasty stillbirth / neonatal death coming up shortly, involving the Neville sisters.

(Sorry, trying to avoid obvious spoilers for those who haven't read the books / know the history!)

LaQueen Wed 26-Jun-13 19:07:35

I am slightly annoyed though, at so many scenes of the Elizabeth, wandering alone around various castles, only to be pounced upon by Warwick. She would always have been surrounded by her ladies-in-waiting.

Also a bit hmm at Warwick going to fetch Elizabeth to her own coronation. It wouldn't have happened. He wasn't a servant FFS.

And, yes, the street scenes look very under populated...and Elizabeth carrying her own baby, at a ceremony. It wouldn't have happened.

As to the ages...Jacquetta and her husband, are far too old. Both would have still been in their late 40s, at the time of The White Queen. They look 20 years older.

And, Edward isn't tall enough. He was 6ft 4 (as I recall).

Warwick is the right age though. Only in his early 30s.

Richard and George though, are too old looking. They look like they're in their early 20s. Richard was still only 11/12, when Edward trook the throne, and George only 14, I think?

noblegiraffe Wed 26-Jun-13 19:20:58

If they were all the right ages it would come off a bit Narnia.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 26-Jun-13 19:38:17

I didn't get the 'religious zealot' vibe of Margaret (in this version, I mean), I just get 'overacted'. Sure, she claims she's had a vision but she was ridiculously OTT before that.

I also think wanting to be a nun as a child in late-medieval England is pretty normal, especially if you know the other alternative is early marriage and the possibility of dying in childbirth. I mean, it wouldn't be anything like so indicative of excessive religious devotion as it is today.

RustyBear Wed 26-Jun-13 20:30:31

Richard III was born in October 1452, so he was still only 8 when Edward took the throne, George was 11. They were 11 and 14 when Edward married, Elizabeth's sons by John Grey were about 9 and 8 and the future Henry VII about 7.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 26-Jun-13 21:42:57

grin at Narnia!

Perhaps we could put some of it down to premature ageing due to the hardships of medieval life?

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 26-Jun-13 21:44:55

By the time he died, Wasn't Edward supposed to be a bit of a bloated mess I always got the impression that Henry Viii took after him in a big (smile) way

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 26-Jun-13 21:56:22

I think kidney trouble ran in that family - you end up bloated. But I am basing this on Anya Seton, who is incredibly picky about research but also a fiction writer.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 26-Jun-13 22:01:19

'Katherine' is a long held fave! grin

HesterShaw Wed 26-Jun-13 22:38:23

Henry VIII was definitely very similar to Edward in terms of looks, build, gluttony and lustfulness. He was a walking catalogue of the seven deadly sins. Edward was apparently like a reverse bulimic - he would regularly gorge himself, and then make himself sick so he could fill his stomach all over again. No wonder he didn't live long.

sunshinenanny Wed 26-Jun-13 22:38:27

I have not read the books so can't comment but I must admit I thought elizabeth's children all looked older that they were supposed to be. and as someone who is interested in historical costume, I thought putting zips in the dresses was unforgivable. Picky I know! I like my historical writers to do thier research, Anya Seton is good also Norah Lofts/Jean Plaidy.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Wed 26-Jun-13 22:42:01

I love 'Katherine'. I was really annoyed when a bio of Katherine Swynford came out a few years back, claiming to be all new and revolutionary, and basically said what Seton had said ... and what Seton had provided details of her research for ...

TunipTheVegedude Wed 26-Jun-13 22:57:07

Yay Norah Lofts.
So underrated.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Thu 27-Jun-13 00:43:26

Her sons at the moment are from her first marriage, they're Thomas and Richard Grey.

She later has Edward, Richard (clearly short on baby names...) and George (who died as a toddler). Edward and Richard are the princes in the tower.
Just to confuse things further, Edward's brother Richard named his son Edward, and their other brother George called his Richard and Edward!

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Thu 27-Jun-13 00:45:44

Margaret Beaufort is FAR too old in the series, she was 13 when Henry was born, and whilst the royal children aged 4 years, Henry didn t age at all!! I'm really enjoying the series, but its little things like this that bug me!

HairpinsAndLacquer Thu 27-Jun-13 14:37:20

sugar I've just read that this morning. I knew it happened, but I was a bit surprised at how much PG has embroidered it. Fingers crossed that isn't shown!

LaQueen Thu 27-Jun-13 16:43:43

I adore Norah Lofts smile

You can order her books from Abe. com, for just a couple of quid, and free P&P.

LaQueen Thu 27-Jun-13 16:46:23

Malnsky no, I meant that IRL Margaret Beaufort had wanted to become a nun, from a very young age and supposedly had a real vocation.

In her later years, when she was the Queen Mother, she eschewed any finery and went about dressed like a nun.

I strongly suspect she wasn't much fun at parties hmm

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 16:50:07

That's normal, though. It's not being a zealot, it's a normal course of life for a woman in her era.

Lots of men and women would effectively 'retire' to a monastery, and the differences between widow's clothes and nun's habits wasn't very marked.

I do know she has a reputation for being devout, but quite a bit of that is based on Fisher's eulogy for her, and of course eulogies do tend to paint a picture of Christian devotion rather than, say, ambition.

She comes across as rather more bloodthirsty when you look at some details - she nicked Richard III's prayerbook that he'd taken with him in his tent at Bosworth field, but couldn't be bothered to cross his name out properly in the prayers. To her it was just a trophy, I guess.

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 17:24:34

Hmm, I think people these days are mostly very bad at being prepared to understand medieval women's religion sensitively on its own terms.
'Zealot' is a very negative word for something that made a lot more sense in the context.
Like your point about widows/nuns' dress, LRD.
Haven't read any of Margaret Beaufort's own writings but I would deffo invite Margery Kempe to a party....

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 17:39:16

That's true ... I think it is really hard for us to see religion in a positive light. And I think we often look at things people did back then that were explicitly related to religion, and assume they were being devout. But they could have been being ambitious - just covering up with some expedient devotion.

I think Cecily Neville was definitely like that.

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 17:49:24

LaQ, have you never met any really entertaining nuns?
I have been to parties which had nuns at who were a hoot. You must be going to the wrong parties wink

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 17:51:59

I want to know the nuns you know! grin

I listened to someone give a paper about piers plowman and rap music in front of two or three nuns who placidly followed through handouts full of less-than-demure language. It was fun.

I think (seriously) that these days you would have to be very calm to be a nun, rather than flying off into visions and passions. Maybe less so then, to be fair.

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 18:14:06

Oh it was years ago LRD. These days I never go to parties.

LaQueen Thu 27-Jun-13 19:03:59

I do agree that some women probably aped excessive piety, just to appear morally superior, and to get others to respect them (for nefarious purposes).

Malenky are you LRD now?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 19:30:18

Yes, I am! I changed it a little while ago but might change back at some point.

I probably put what I was trying to say badly. I expect there were women who aped excessive piety. But the point is, the sort of piety you're describing wasn't excessive - it was quite normal. And I'm not convinced that MB (or anyone else) would necessarily have seen it as deliberately deceptive to perform pious practices whilst being ambitious in a worldly way. Piety was just so central to people's ordinary lives.

I'm thinking of Margery Kempe because tunip mentioned her - but now, she is excessively pious, and people struggled with her because of it.

Btw this is a minor niggle, but something I find implausible about the whole series is how religious practice just doesn't really feature unless you're on your knees (on the eighteenth-century tombstones hmm) being histrionic. Yet they've gone with Jacquetta doing magic. I find it odd doing one and not the other, if you see what I mean.

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 20:39:53

'Btw this is a minor niggle, but something I find implausible about the whole series is how religious practice just doesn't really feature unless you're on your knees (on the eighteenth-century tombstones ) being histrionic.'

Yes, yes, yes, and it's not minor, it's massive <sinks to knees and gets histrionic>

It's just as symptomatic of what's wrong with this dramatisation as the good-people-don't-wear-hats thing. Behaviour that is alien to us must be WEIRD done by WEIRD people, they can't be normal people doing what's normal to them.

alemci Thu 27-Jun-13 20:44:54

Just out of interest, are the Greys related to Lady Jane Grey.

I suppose Magaret Beaufort didn't have mumsnet so to her prayer was her only outlet.

LaQueen Thu 27-Jun-13 20:48:04

almeci yes, they were.

Elizabeth Woodville's first husband was called John Grey, and his father was Baron Ferrers of Groby, I think? Anyway...their ancestral home was Bradgate Park in Leicestershire.

And, 200 years later that's where Lady Jane Grey grew up. There's an avenue of elms in the park, which are all lopped. An there's a local legend that when Lady Jane Grey was beheaded, the head gardener at Bradgate Park, lopped all the elm trees, in sympathy.

LaQueen Thu 27-Jun-13 20:49:46

Yes, I think you're probably right LRD.

Of course, we can never know. But, I would love to know how many people were truly, genuinely devout in the Middle Ages. And, how many just paid lip service.

alemci Thu 27-Jun-13 20:52:05

also it was probably better to be seen to be overly religious otherwise you may be accused of witchcraft etc even if your heart wasn't really in it.

I do believe though that some people were devout and maybe she was one of them.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 20:55:49

Accusations of witchcraft are pretty rare, TBH. I think being accused of heresy would be more of a real-life worry. But yeah, I'm sure that's true about people needing to toe the line.

It would be absolutely fascinating to know for certain.

Jane was born around 1536 and Elizabeth Woodville died in 1492, so I think Jane would have grown up knowing people who knew Elizabeth quite well.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 20:56:38

Oops, sorry, missed your post tunip - yes, agree absolutely.

Though I am still clinging to the hope this week's ep will be better, because I want to enjoy it.

Portofino Thu 27-Jun-13 21:16:12

Jane Grey wasn't 200 years after Elizabeth Woodville though...

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 21:20:14

But the whole genuinely devout vs lipservice split is a very modern way to think about it.
It was a way of life, and what you did in terms of religious observance and good works mattered more than what you thought about the whole thing in your head.

Portofino Thu 27-Jun-13 21:24:45

They were ALL very religious though, weren't they? Even Anne Boleyn, who has been called a heretic, was in favour of church reform vs lacking catholic faith. All the statements she made before she died indicate she kept her faith. Ditto Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 21:24:47

Yeah, and that's what bugs me about the Jacquetta witch bits. I know she had that reputation and it's not unthinkable there was something behind it, but it would have been connected into Christian rituals or at least Christian symbols. People were worried witches wanted to use bits of the Eucharist in their spells. Just being indifferent to Christianity doesn't seem that likely, and yet most of the characters are shown that way.

Are the books the same?

Portofino Thu 27-Jun-13 21:28:17

I read the White Queen and the Kingmakers Daughter, and it is all politics and sex. Religion played very little part.

Portofino Thu 27-Jun-13 21:30:27

And it bigs up rumour. Alison Weir can be a bit wordy but she at least does her research and puts forward the most likely hypothesis, based on the written record.

Portofino Thu 27-Jun-13 21:32:39

I do like a Philippa Gregory though. She tells a good tale, though history lite.

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 21:33:56

That reminds me of the bit in Eamon Duffy about holy water being kept under lock and key in case people nicked it and used it for witchcraft.

LaQ - if you're interested in getting into people's heads in this period, read something on religion like The Stripping Of The Altars. It is hefty but fascinating.
I don't think we can understand them at all unless we understand their religion.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 21:35:56

Read Marking the Hours! I love Marking the Hours.

Also, it is just the right size to use as a rest for my laptop when I'm MNing curled up on the sofa.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 27-Jun-13 21:37:21

Elizabeth was Lady Jane Greys Great, Great Grandmother. lady Jane Grey's Great Grandad wa she olde rof her two sons from her first marriage

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 27-Jun-13 21:38:44

Wtf! That's not what I typed!

'Was the older of her two sons by her first marriage'

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 21:44:12

Ooh, that made my eyes go funny.

I think they look alike, but maybe that's just me reading into it?

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 21:50:05

OK, let's see if I can get this right;

Eliz Woodville > Eliz of York > Mary Rose who marries Duke of Suffolk > Frances Brandon > Jane

Eliz Woodville > Grey son > Grey grandson > Grey great-grandson marries Frances Brandon > Jane

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 27-Jun-13 21:53:07

Yes! And, of course, they were related in more than one way...all that inter marriage grin

Portofino Thu 27-Jun-13 21:58:53

I have family tree software, I often think I should stick them all in to work out the relationships in my head. Then I think about uploading my tree to Genes Reunited or some such and confusing everyone that I am indeed posh.

TunipTheVegedude Thu 27-Jun-13 22:01:48

Ha! There must be someone on Mumsnet descended from Elizabeth Woodville. Probably a few dozen.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Thu 27-Jun-13 22:16:48

Ooh, nicely done.

The names always make me think of Jane Austen so I get very confused.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 13:54:55

We drove through Groby, near Leicester recently, and the secondary school there is called The Elizabeth Woodville School smile

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 13:57:44

Porto - No, you're absolutely correct, of course. There wasn't a 200 year gap between Elizabeth Woodville and Lady Jane Grey - I just wasn't thinking. You have my apologies.

Infact, there's every chance that Jane would have come into contact with plenty of people who had known Elizabeth.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 14:01:54

Mal the books do allude to Jacquetta's scrying quite a lot, but I find Gregory describes it in a bit too Disney kinda way for my liking hmm

I much prefer the way Rosemary Hawley Jarman speaks about it in We Speak No Treason

Also, Jarman goes far deeper into the Melusine legends, etc.

But, then you really can't compare Gregory and Jarman, at all.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 14:04:46

Oooh, sounds good Tunip.

I've just waded through The Bloodline of the Holy Grail, for the second time. Anything else will seem like Biff Chip & Kipper, in comparison grin

Fiderer Fri 28-Jun-13 14:10:29

LeQ "Scrying" is the smokey thing, isn't it?

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 14:11:37


LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 14:12:22

Basically, yes Fid.

Jacquetta supposedly had the Sight which meant she had visions of the future, sometimes. They could either come upon her totally unexpectedly, or she could encourage them to come, using smoke, or staring into a bowl of water, a candle flame etc.

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 14:14:05

LOL, I just looked up the Jarman book of which you speak and as well as the sensible-looking edition (with historically correct hat) I found this little beauty: grin

Fiderer Fri 28-Jun-13 14:16:18

I liked the bit by the water with the reeling in, partly perhaps because I wasn't expected any magic stuff. And it was more atmospheric than gazing into smoke in your nightie grin

Though I would still love Elizabeth's nightgown to float about in.

So what's a good read for someone to get into that whole period?

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Fri 28-Jun-13 14:21:54

The water bit was quite pretty, but it dragged on a bit for me. And the little crown-shaped ring just looked tacky.

I am with you on the nightgown though.

Fiderer Fri 28-Jun-13 14:23:48

The ring was a bit "Kinder Surprise".

courgetteDOTcom Fri 28-Jun-13 14:27:31

I loved the books and always said it would be interesting to read them concurrently, but the series is a let down! I can't believe they've had us waiting for 6 months.

they've cut so much out I'm confused about what's happening! and yes, everything everyone else has said too.

Reading what PG said about writing RQ, she found it difficult to change allegiance to write it having already done it to write WQ and get sympathetic to EW and I think out shows, the book isn't sympathetic to her at all. WRT Margaret being religious, she is written so religious she annoys people. Jaquetta's family held Joan of Ark for awhile and Margaret questions her constantly about her, as she's her heroine. She describes herself as having "saint's knees" as she spends her life on her knees in prayer.

Some people have asked about where her son was, it was normal to be sent to a relative as a child.

I love the period so much, I set my wedding around it grin I was reading the books at the same time and getting ideas. We had a lot of Lancaster v York "fights" (the best man is a Yorkist).

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 14:44:58

Tunip eeek...what's with the comedy, Mils & Boon cover-art shock

We Speak No Treason was considered one of the defintive historical texts of the 70s, and won all sorts of awards, I think?

My copy has a very sensible dust jacket with medieval engravings on it [dour]

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 14:51:58

Oh Fid where to start...

Personally, I'd start you on The Sunne In Splendour by Sharon Penman - it's equally weighty (she's a proper historian, and everyfink) but also very engagingly written, so that the characters seem almost touchable.

If you want something a little lighter, than Elizabeth Chadwick is a good read. I'm currently reading her latest The Summer Queen which is about Eleanor Of Aquitaine...and it's good, if a bit fluffy.

I'm more looking forward to reading Eleanor The Queen by Norah Lofts, which is waiting on my bedside table. Norah Lofts is slightly more edgy than Chadwick, and her novels often have quite a sinister/macabre element to them.

But, my all time uber favourite is Rosemary Hawley Jarman. Her books have the power to actually make me cry. And, her writing style is slightly archaic, so I find her books the most atmospheric - and her plain prose is better than a lot of poetry I've read.

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 15:07:04

You're absolutely right about Lofts being edgy. I'd never seen her described as that before, but she is.

Fiderer Fri 28-Jun-13 15:08:34

Thanks LeQ. I like a bit of weight and archaic sounds good. Someone lent me a Philippa Gregory and though I found the period interesting, the writing wasn't my thing.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Fri 28-Jun-13 15:17:03

That cover art seems to be default 'thing we have reprinted this cos it is all, like, trendy now'. It's totally unrelated but the exact same font was used for reprints of Diana Wynne Jones after JK Rowling made that sort of story trendy.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 15:21:17

Tunip yep, there's a certain bleakness in her writing that I really like. A certain emptiness/poignancy - a lot of her books don't end happily, and many of her characters come to very bleak ends.

Read Jassy recently, and loved it, but it made me so sad.

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 16:06:01

Yes, there's absolutely no guarantee the good will be rewarded or the bad punished.
Eg in the Town House trilogy, Martin never finds out the truth about Pert Tom and what happened to Kate, and carries on looking after him for the rest of his life.
And the woman in The House At Sunset who desperately wants to buy The Old Vine back never gets it and has her money stolen.

She's been compared to William Faulkner. And yet when I was young she was more often than not shelved in the Historical Romance section in the library and given covers a bit like the one I linked to.

Jassy - haven't read that one for years but wasn't it filmed with Margaret Lockwood?

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 16:08:33

It's her mastery of historical detail that does it for me most though. In The Town House where Agnes puts the handfuls of wheat on Martin's bed for his marriage to Magda so they'll be fruitful - with that one tiny detail she tells you so much about tradition and belief, character and motivation.
I also love that she writes about working class characters as much as posh ones.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 16:52:13

I haven't read The Townhouse trilogy yet, but I really want to. And, yes I love the tiny details, that just convey so much. She really makes you feel the time.

Haven't seen the film of Jassy - don't think I'd want to.

The first book of her I read was Gad's Hall, and I was reluctant to start it as it sounded like it was going to be dull and trite But before you knew where you were, you were hip-deep in devil worship, satanistic orgies, suicide, infanticide...and I was like WTAF?

And, it's rendered all the more chilling, because she sets her stories in such mundane, rural backgrounds. In this way, she reminds me very much of Gregory's Wideacre trilogy - infact, I often wonder if PG wasn't inspired by Norah Lofts, for this?

And, I actually like the fact so many of her protagonists are fallible, with a peverse streak in them. You're never certain who is really the hero/heroine hmm

Have you noticed there's a really underlying thread of homosexuality in many of her novels, and it's usually unrequited?

Fiderer Fri 28-Jun-13 16:57:06

<makes notes>

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 17:08:08

Yes, I definitely think Gregory was inspired by Lofts in her earlier work, I've noticed it too. If they ever get her on for a webchat that can be my question! When I first read Gregory I thought 'oh wow, a new Norah Lofts' but I'm not sure she's totally lived up to that promise. I feel like she's churning out so many now and they need to be more tightly plotted and edited more ruthlessly. They go on a bit, which I don't think Lofts ever did.

Eek, Gad's Hall! It came as a total shock to me as an innocent teenager. Terrifying! There was a witchy one that was made into a Hammer horror film, too. There's also a dodgy contemporary rape one in which the repressed spinsters quite enjoy being raped hmm

The repressed homosexuality - yes. There's some non-repressed homosexuality in The House At Old Vine, too.

The Town House trilogy is on Kindle. It's my favourite of her work, though The Concubine is very good. I must re-read the Knight's Acre ones, too.

What I absolutely love are the books where she takes the same setting and uses different narrators so you see people through their own eyes and then through someone else's. She's incredible on character development - how people get from A to B in the course of their lives, what made them the way they are. And of course, how physical settings like towns do.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 17:26:02

Yes, I'd agree with you on that one. I thought the Wideacre trilogy was incredibly rich, and were her Tudor books.

But, since then I think her books have gone light, I feel like her publishers are pushing her to churn one out every 12 months, and the content is really suffering. There's not the layering anymore, or the richness.

And, I really like her use of different narrators, so you get to see someone from other POV, than their own.

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 17:34:24

Yes, exactly - the layering and the richness isn't there any more.
She should slow down.

LaQueen Fri 28-Jun-13 17:38:51

I was over the moom, when I heard she was writing about the Plantagents because I've been obsessed liked them for 25 years, since I did The Wars of the Roses for A level History.

But, although I enjoyed them, I found them...tepid. None of the passion, or the pathos of her earlier books.

TunipTheVegedude Fri 28-Jun-13 18:13:17

Just did some googling.

'Brooklyn, N.Y.: Good Morning,
Who are your favorite historical fiction authors? Did you ever read any of Norah Lofts's work?
Philippa Gregory: I hardly ever read historical fiction now, but when I was young I used to adore the novels of Georgette Heyer and Anya Seton.'

from here

MummyMastodon Sun 30-Jun-13 21:08:34

Here we go. As they neglected to make Little Henry vii grow up at all in four 4 years, I'm rather hoping that he will be slaying Richard iii in the last episode, and that he will still be five years old ;)

courgetteDOTcom Mon 01-Jul-13 01:14:39

I've read three of the four books but was totally lost tonight!

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 08:45:25

LOL MummyMastodon. I like that idea.
Alternatively they'll suddenly switch him to someone in his 50s and it'll be like when the actresses for Lucy kept changing in Neighbours.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 09:07:06

I quite enjoyed last night's episode, anyone else?

Gracelo Mon 01-Jul-13 09:10:50

I liked last night's better than last week but who was the boy Margaret talked into fighting against Edward? I didn't do much English history at school.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 09:16:03

No, because 1. the ship was so implausible and 2. Philippa has just got SUCH a down on poor Margaret Beaufort.
She presents her as so totally self-deceiving as well as devious. And she was in church without a headcovering. <disapproving>

(and btw I only watched because dh was.)

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 09:19:28

I get from the narrative that it was Margaret's brother John, but I admit, I've no clue who he is in the history.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 09:22:41

The ship was implausible. I thought the birth was too - in general, all the shock and squeamishness about !) seeing people about to have sex and !!) childbirth seemed a bit unlikey, you'd have seen it by then.

But yeah ... she does have a down on MB but I found her more likeable in this episode.

I've given up on the headcoverings but could they not FFS find a church for her to pray in that isn't full of post-medieval stuff? It's not like it's that difficult, there are quite a lot of fifteenth-century churches kicking around.

MB would totes have prayed the Lord's Prayer in English, too. Cos mumbling a bit of Latin would have been, what, too difficult for us to cope with? confused

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 11:55:09

"Do not fret, my little muff".

How did James Frain say that with a straight face?

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 12:56:45

LOL. Professionalism.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 13:04:35

I quite enjoyed it. I didn't find it implausible at all. I don't think a high born lady like Anne Neville would have necessarily been exposed to sex, or childbirth, and I think the horror at the birth had to do with having to put her hands into her sister!

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 13:12:55

Honestly, she would, though.

There just wasn't that level of privacy. I agree with you she might well have been horrified by having to do that during childbirth, but the idea she'd have been shrinking away a bit of sex and nudity feels unlikely to me.

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:13:53

Actually, I think IRL that Isabella did give birth on board ship? The Calais garrison stayed loyal to Edward, despite Warwick being Captain of Calais, and the garrison refused Warwick's ship entry into the harbour.

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:18:32

In the books I quite liked the way that Elizabeth and Jacquetta do witchcraft - insofar that they do it very diffidently, almost as though pretending they're not really doing anything wrong, oh no not us, we're just playing at being witches (but, all the while they know damn well what they're doing)...that made it quite eerie IMO.

In the series though, it seems more deliberate.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 13:24:52

A young, high born, unmarried girl allowed access to a delivery room? I'm not so sure.
And I think the deal with the sex was the way they flaunted it in her face. Anne was singled out to remain in the room, and they tossed their clothes in her face.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 13:30:52

Mmm. I think so.

I also think the issue with the sex is, given privacy wasn't so big a deal, their flaunting it in her face isn't that likely and her being so overtly disgusted isn't that likely either.

It is partly that I find that actress quite wooden, TBF.

courgetteDOTcom Mon 01-Jul-13 13:32:06

I was thinking that LaQ, especially if you read Rivers too, Jaquetta always seemed to be a little cautious of it, her I can't remember if it was mother or grandmother was the real witch.

courgetteDOTcom Mon 01-Jul-13 13:33:46

Didn't women used to have all their ladies around them during birth?

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:33:56

I would hesitate to think that a young noble woman would ever have been an observer at a birth, until after she'd been married, and had children of her own (and then at least, would have some minor knowledge/experience to offer)

As a young, unmarried woman of noble birth there would just be no need for her to be there, in the first place. A noble family could easily afford to pay for very experienced midwives, wet nurses...and, there would have been plenty of other servants on hand, too, to heat water, fetch and carry.

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:36:17

But, I do agree with you about the sex Mal - I think it would have been virtually impossible to completely protect a young noble woman from having any knowledge of sex and stuff. Not at that time. People lived in far closer proximity.

And, it was seen as a very natural was only the Victorians who made us all prudish.

And, yes I find the actress playing Anne very wooden, and bland.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 13:37:27

Yeah, women had ladies in waiting around them at birth.

I think it was one of the normal ways women learned about how birth worked. I could be totally wrong, of course, but my impression was that it was fairly normal - whether you'd be allowed to see a birth if you were unmarried or not, I don't know, but sex wouldn't have been all that private.

As I say, not 100% sure but I think it's really only much later - like Victorian times - that there's this paranoia about unmarried women being shielded from all knowledge of sex and childbirth.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 13:38:05

Cross post! grin

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 13:39:01

[high fives Mal]

As ever, we are in complete accord historically wink

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 13:49:26

Unmarried women definitely weren't allowed in the birthing chamber.

I agree with Saggy, I didn't find the sex bit implausible - it was the flaunting and the rudeness with which they flung the clothes rather than the sex itself.

AFAIK you were supposed to keep your smock on for sex though that doesn't necessarily mean everyone did, and maybe their nakedness would be shocking even if you were fairly familiar with sex.

Elizabeth Woodville's silly sleeveless nightie would probably have been shocking enough, tbh.

I think there are 2 different things here, sex taboos and nudity taboos.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 13:51:51

I stand corrected! Thank you.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 14:18:16

I already said that! <<umbrage>>

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 14:18:48


TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 14:25:02

Yes but you weren't firm enough Saggy.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 14:27:07

Nah, I just need to be told I'm wrong several times before it sinks in.

Gracelo Mon 01-Jul-13 14:33:38

Didn't she give birth on the ship (I got distracted during that bit), maybe there weren't any midwives or other ladies around?
Imagine having a baby on a ship in a storm, I'd be massively seasick on top if it all.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 14:36:49

In the TV they were trying to get into the harbour to find a midwife.

I have to admit, I found the bit where they hear the harbour chains going up properly spooky. I liked that.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 14:41:42

Wouldn't they have made sure she was travelling with someone who knew what they were doing, though? Or was that mentioned?

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 14:50:16

In the book, IIRC they flee. The storm keeps them at sea for some time, (dont forget, sailing was a risky business back then, and getting trapped in a 'lee shore' in a storm could be fatal.) Edward somehow manages to reach Calais first. The baby is premature and transverse, so Anne has to try and turn it. Its a really unpleasant scene. <<tries to sound more assertive>>

Gracelo Mon 01-Jul-13 15:15:02

Warrick seemed a lot more concerned with getting away than with the safety of his pregnant daughter but maybe there wasn't a real choice there.

The consultant put one hand inside me when I had dd because she thought dd was looking up, not down and I might need forceps (and she was). I hope she's got over the swearing I subjected her to by now. I hadn't been aware I knew that many expletives blush

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 15:42:51

One of the main themes of The Kingmakers Daughter is that Warwick shows a total disregard for his daughters feelings and safety, and used them as pawns for his own ends. He marries one to York, and One to Lancaster!!

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 15:51:39

angry Yeah, the patriarchal kingmaking bastard!

Gracelo Mon 01-Jul-13 15:55:28

He was covering all his bases, it seems.
I think I might have to start reading up on that era. I have The Sunne in Splendour on my Kindle, I start with that.

Fiderer Mon 01-Jul-13 17:17:21

limited "Do not fret, my little muff" - I thought he said "moth"? Admittedly "My little moth" isn't much of a fatherly endearment either.

Gosh that episode was busy. They're defeated. They're rebelling. They're fleeing. He's defeated. He's won. I need a chess board to keep track of everyone, it fair skipped through.

Did Edward really kill MB's brother? We hardly saw him but he seemed to act out of conscience and I thought the poor lad deserved at least a goblet of wine by flickering candlelight and a chance to tell his tale before being filleted.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 18:22:20

fiderer It could have been 'moth', I didn't have the subtitles up.

Seeing as I wage a constant battle against the clothes moth it seems even less affectionate to me.

KikeriFreedomCastle Mon 01-Jul-13 18:24:32

I'm quite sure he said moth, too.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 18:24:34

I mean 'more' affectionate.

<Going to John Lewis for mothballs tomorrow>

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 18:28:02

He said Moth! Wash yer ears out! grin

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 18:28:58

Oh God, I don't know. But the mothballs I get aren't those stinky naptha ones but are very effective and change to white from orange when they've stopped working.

I recommend them to anyone who's ever been troubled by moths behind the arras.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 18:51:55

I'm sure moths were even more of a problem than now, in horrible damp castles where everything was made out of wool or linen. Seems a funny sort of term of affection.
But then, he's a funny sort of dad.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 19:06:50

Do you think so? At the risk of derailing a thread about an important televisual event wink I'm quite obsessed by moths and feel that central heating has a lot to answer for.

They never seemed to be a problem when I was living at my parents' and freezing to death every winter and most summers.

But then I never wore ermine back then wink

alemci Mon 01-Jul-13 19:41:53

also when Magaret Beaufort was moaning at her husband for worrying about his neck etc. who can blame him. He just wants a quiet life.
Makes me wonder if she will murder him or he will be killed quite soon.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 19:46:02

They're showing his as pretty sympathetic, aren't they? In a nasty, patriarchial, 'you, woman, are my property' kind of way.

I suppose I could get fed up about how that plays into stereotypes of 'poor long-suffering men with cheating wives', but hey ho.

I'm curious about the moths too. You know, it occurs to me, I've never seen a squished moth or spider in a manuscript. You'd think you would if they were that much all over the place. You get bits of straw and all sorts.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 19:51:40

They were obsessed with moths - there's lots in the Goodman of Paris.
You had to brush your clothes and shake them out weekly if they were stored, as well as packing them up with various herbs. Only luckily as you had fewer clothes it didn't take as long.

Apparently central heating makes them breed all year round. The only time I've ever had trouble was when I've left clothes in attics and sheds, which was why I assumed they like damp, but maybe it was more to do with them being untouched for long enough for the full life cycle of the moth.

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 19:53:02

Edward didn't get to Calais before Warwick - Edward never went. Edward was just very lucky that the garrison was loyal to the him, the king, rather than Warwick who was actually Captain of Calais at the time.

And no, he had very little paternal regard for his daughters. But, then neither did their own mother. I won't write any spoilers (just incase) but later on, the Countess of Warwick completely abandons her daughters to fend for themselves, and buggers off, only making sure that she is okay hmm

I must confess, the role of Margaret Beaufort's brother has been completely hidden from me, until now. I did this period for A level, and have read copious amounts about the Plantagenets ever since...but, I don't recall that Edward, killed Margaret's brother - or that he led a rebellion against Edward hmm

I suspect it may be poetic licence?

Fiderer Mon 01-Jul-13 19:56:20

Poor chap. No goblet, no candlelight - and no heroics. I feel even worse for him.
<may be unsuited to the turmoils of the period>

alemci Mon 01-Jul-13 20:01:48

why did the brother do what he did and go and see the king anyway. didn't get that (there was a lot going on whilst i was watching)

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 20:03:09

Well, I have done extensive and detailed historic research.

<preens self>

Oh, ok, I checked wikipedia.

But no, I'm also still totally lost as to who the historical character is whom Edward killed. Margaret's half-brother who was Wells (which is what they were calling this bloke) died at a different time so far as I can see.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 20:04:52

alem - the brother didn't realize that the battle was a ruse to get Edward into battle, so that Neville and George could turn on him. He thought they were really fighting.

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 20:05:39

Phew...glad you can confirm that Mal.

All through last night's episode, I was annoying DH by muttering 'No, no...I'm sure he didn't do, I'm sure he didn't...oh, come on, there's no way he did that...'

Fiderer Mon 01-Jul-13 20:06:00

I think his sister did the whole "God wants this" spiel which he believed and then Jasper Tudor let on it was all a trick. That Warwick and baddy brother George had set Edward up and so the brother realised "God doesn't want this" and set off to let Edward know.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik Mon 01-Jul-13 20:06:18

Well, I'm only confirming I checked wiki ...!

LaQueen Mon 01-Jul-13 20:08:40

alem basically naughty Margaret led her brother to believe that if he led his army in a rebellion against Edward, then he stood a very good chance of either being crowned king himself or at least be the uncle of the new king (Margaret's son Henry).

Wells thought he was fighting for the good of the Lancastrian cause, and for a Lancastrian king...then he realised that actually, another Yorkist (George) would be put on the throne.

Obviously though, all this is complete fantasty...and I don't know why the writer has put it in. I mean FFS, it's not like the War of the Roses isn't already really complicated enough hmm

3littlefrogs Mon 01-Jul-13 20:30:41

I have just watched the BBC2 documentary about Henry VII (recorded it weeks ago) and it filled in the history and the family tree very well.

I read Anya Seton's Kathryn years ago; it was one of my favourite books.

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 01-Jul-13 20:51:08

I think although I'm not sure, that I might have read about him once (but it might not have been him).

I think it might have been in a Horrible Histories book? I'll go and have a scan of the bookcase in a bit.

limitedperiodonly Mon 01-Jul-13 21:04:23

tunip I know more about the life cycle of the clothes moth than the Plantagenets, Tudors etc. It's a combination of having a lot of natural fibres and being married to a clothing retailer.

A serious infestation would be as devastating to us as the Hundred Years' War.

I could tell you things about moths that would be a lot more terrifying, and probably a lot more accurate, than any BBC/ Philippa Gregory mish-mash wink

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 21:21:01

LOL LimitedPeriod!

Imagine if your dh was a medieval clothing retailer, though! shock

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 01-Jul-13 21:26:13

Ah nope, wrong king. That was Henry I. A man had sworn an oath to Henry's brother (and enemy) Robert and then broke it. Henry pushed him off the top of Rouen Castle.

I was going to say I've never read it anywhere else, and I do like the Plantagenets and have read quite a bit about them.

Actually, I was pleasantly surprised with the birth. It was much gorier in the book!

HairpinsAndLacquer Mon 01-Jul-13 21:33:43

Does anybody else find, as they watch this, that it's odd knowing how these 'characters' are going to die when they don't know themselves?

Like I know that Margaret Beaufort is going to see another, what, three coronations before she dies, but some of the others won't see another one.

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 21:36:38

I keep trying to forget what I know. I do the same with Hilary Mantel - I am resolutely pretending there's every chance the third book ends with him settling down to a happy life in the countryside.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 21:43:21

Yes, absolutely.
I was rooting for him to marry Jane Seymour.
You never know. I mean, Mantel is a hugely original writer, she might switch genre to alt hist halfway through smile

LadyClariceCannockMonty Mon 01-Jul-13 21:44:22

I've only watched the first one so haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to sign in.

I LOVE Janet McTeer as Jacquetta. Not convinced about anyone else yet, esp the King himself he's not pretty enough to keep me interested

Everything and everyone looks suspiciously clean for the fifteenth century. I'm enjoying James Frain though; a bit Blackadder and a bit Malcolm Tucker grin

But I'm really holding out for Wolf Hall.

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 21:45:01

He doesn't?! shock

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 21:45:18

Ooh, yes ... I love Janet McTeer too. So good!

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 21:52:31

Ha LadyClarice, you are SPOT ON re James Frain.

Yes, Janet McTeer is very good. She's a better class of actor than most of them and she's giving it her all.

worriedsick100 Mon 01-Jul-13 22:14:13

enjoying it but finding it all a bit sexed up - all the witchcraft stuff etc

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 22:57:22

It would be nice Iif Jaquetta had an accent, given that she is from Luxemboug! And it annoys me when the Woodvilles are called commoners. She is from a royal family and married into the British royal family!

I actually met a medieval clothes retailer recently. She was telling me she would need to downgrade her second best dress because of moth damage. It was full of centimetre wide holes all down the front!

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Mon 01-Jul-13 22:58:07

And I'm also rooting for Cromwell in Wolf Hall! sad

sugarandspite Mon 01-Jul-13 23:04:58

I'm sure I don't remember the Margaret Beaufort brother Wells bit in any of the books.

Have the BBC basically invented him? Or at least his role in that uprising?

Presumably because the story isn't complicated enough on its own?

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 23:06:52

But would they be commoners because the dad is, right? He was ennobled after marrying her.

I agree about the accent - and what is going on with Jasper Tudor's accent? confused

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 23:09:05

It's signalling 'WELSH!' isn't it? What more do you want?!

Given that we have a Swedish Elizabeth Woodville, I think we're not meant to notice the accents.

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 23:19:39

That is probably true. smile

TBH I just picture him sounding like my grandpa. Anything else isn't a real Welsh accent.

sugarandspite Mon 01-Jul-13 23:23:03

Ah ok so it looks like (from Wikipedia) that he did exist but was older than MB, was her stepbrother with his own adult son and was involved in the Welles uprising / robin of redesdale rebellion and was beheaded by Edward - although under utterly different circumstances than those in last night's episode.

Why bugger about so much with the history when its so unrelated to the story?

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 23:25:43

Because it made Margaret Beaufort look really evil, probably hmm

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 23:26:38

Ok, now my turn to stamp my feet and strop.

I said that upthread already.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 01-Jul-13 23:29:14

And you were right! grin

sugarandspite Mon 01-Jul-13 23:29:26

That's true. I'm glad they are making sure I clearly understand that she is Not A Nice Person.

I thought she can across much more vulnerable and warmer and likeable in the red queen.

LRDLearningDomHome Mon 01-Jul-13 23:30:22

I was.

My knowledge of actual history is pretty shite but my wiki-checking skills are honed.

sugarandspite Mon 01-Jul-13 23:31:13

Sorry LRD!

I got distracted by the moth discussion grin

courgetteDOTcom Tue 02-Jul-13 02:07:25

Jaquetta was the daughter of a count and married Bedford to become pretty much Queen of France, DIL to Henry IV, cousin to the Holy Roman Emperor and a couple of European kings. her marriage was really important because it tied so many threads together. she was too important to not let her get away with her second marriage and they paid a lot for it. they hastily made a title for them (Rivers in honour of her goddess ancestor Melusina) but it wasn't totally all forgiven which is why their children were seen as common.

the scene with Welles is definitely an addition, in the books it's all seen from the woman's perspective.

Shame I've loaned my books out because there's things I keep wanting to look up!

TunipTheVegedude Tue 02-Jul-13 08:44:52

Sugar it's the problem with them having to start her story later on in her life, isn't it? If you immediately feel for her as a victim of what we would now see as awful child abuse, you sympathise with her later on and her later personality feels more inexplicable. Whereas leaving that bit out reduces her to Evil Religious Nut caricature.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 02-Jul-13 08:45:30

EXPLICABLE not inexplicable

courgetteDOTcom Tue 02-Jul-13 12:52:30

Margaret was 19 when she married Stafford, her third husband, and Henry would have been 6. I have no idea when any of the events are set because they're moving so fast. Edward was born in 1470 though which would make Margaret 27 and Henry 14.

She does appear to be the sort of person who wasn't able to grow up properly.

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:05:32

Actually Stafford was Margaret's second husband.

Her third husband was Sir William Stanley - the bloke who changed sides during the Battle of Bosworth, and thereby secured the crown for Henry Tudor.

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:16:17

Jacquetta, was born into the royal House of Luxembourg as her father was the Count of St-Pol.

As far as I know she wasn't ever the daughter-in-law of Henri IV? But, her first husband was John, Duke of Bedford, who was the brother of Henry V of England.

And, for a time while John was Regent of France, Jacquetta was the highest ranking woman in France.

This is why it was such a huge scandal that when the Duke of Bedford died, Jacquetta secretly married one of his esquires, Richard Woodville - who although fairly well born, certainly wasn't noble, or anywhere near.

Jacquetta and Richard had to pay a huge fine, for having the temerity to get married. And, they struggled financially all the while Elizabeth was growing up (didn't stop them having 14 children though).

And, this also is why she constantly reminds Elizabeth, that she does have royal blood in her veins (as in the Royal House of Luxemborg) eventhough people mocked her for being a commoner - because at the time inheritance/social standing came down through the paternal line.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 02-Jul-13 13:17:45

You're both right. She was married to someone else as a baby but it was dissolved because of consanguinity and it didn't count because she'd been a child when it was contracted.

TunipTheVegedude Tue 02-Jul-13 13:19:14

I read it on Wikipedia yesterday blush

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:23:10

I reckon that consangunitiy caused so many almight fuck-ups and confusion during the medieval period.

If I remember rightly, you couldn't be related within the 7th degree, to the person you were marrying? Which made it virtually impossible for any of the nobility to marry another noble...because, they were all distantly related.

One of the reasons given for Eleanor of Aquitaine divorcing Louis was because they were 4th cousins, I think? But, then she went on to marry Henry II, and they were also distantly related, I think?

It was just a mockery, and a convenient excuse to hang a divorce on hmm

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:24:45

Ah, now I must brag confess I'm not Wiki-ing any of this.

I have been obsessed with the Plantagents since I did the War of the Roses for A level. I know them, better than I know my own extended family blush

TunipTheVegedude Tue 02-Jul-13 13:25:48

7th degree? shock

I wonder if it was a nice little earner for the church, sorting out all the dispensations they needed.

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:27:43

Yeah, course it was...the Pope would get a bung, for granting a dispensation for nobles marrying within the 7th degree (which was just about all of 'em), and then he'd get a bung, for agreeing to disolve the dispensation, when the couple decided they need an excuse for a divorce.

Sorted wink

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:28:52

Yes, WTF is going on with Jasper Tudor's accent??? He doesn't sound Welsh - I think he sounds more Geordie, to be honest?

TunipTheVegedude Tue 02-Jul-13 13:29:26

Ha! And if they were royalty the bung would be massive.

courgetteDOTcom Tue 02-Jul-13 13:30:32

She was married before Tudor, it was annulled due to her being under 12.

Henry IV died 20 years before they got married, but he was still Bedford's father. I was posting on the ap (hence the lack of caps) and trying to save myself texters thumb by posting short as my laptop has died.

I didn't say Woodville was anything noble though.

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 13:33:25

Ah, I didn't know that courgette thanks.

I've always understood that Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth Woodville were both ladies in waiting to Margaret of Anjou, when they were both young girls.

Does anyone know if this is true? Margaret would have been about 11, and Elizabeth about 14?

courgetteDOTcom Tue 02-Jul-13 15:44:02

Some cross posts there.

I'm jealous, I'm hoping to do history in September and it's not what I would call history! Anything that has photos is not history (exception of Da Vinci's photo, but then that goes for anything Da Vinci!) but my husband says what I like is too modern to be history!

There is debate if Elizabeth was lady in waiting. There was a lady called Isabel Grey - Isabel is a corruption of Elizabeth and obviously Grey was her first married name - that some argue is Elizabeth. Jacquetta was a lady to Margaret, she was quite popular and second only to her in court. I don't know about Beaufort though.

Talking about how many degrees, there was rumours that Richard and Elizabeth of York were to marry but he denied these.

LaQueen Tue 02-Jul-13 16:50:40

It's quite likely that Elizabeth may also have been known as Isabel, as it's often a diminuative of Elizabeth.

I would have thought it highly likely, as Jacquetta was close to Margaret of Anjou, and it was very common practice to introduce you children at Court, from quite a young age. So, it would have been very natural for Margaret to have Elizabeth as her lady-in-waiting, too.

LRDLearningDomHome Tue 02-Jul-13 17:07:32

Ooh ... can I ask, how is Jacquetta related to Marie de Ste Pol, the one in the early fourteenth century who married Aymer de Valance? I know I can look it up but since you lot are here ...

Isabel is a translation of Elizabeth, I think - more usual in Latin documents that I've seen, though I wouldn't know for as late as this as I'm not looking at anything very formal. Might that be why it becomes a diminuative? There's a folk etymology they both come from 'Isis the Beautiful' (cf. Adhaf Soueif), but I don't know if it is true.

I didn't think Jasper Tudor sounded Geordie - but then I can't place it at all. I'm afraid I'm going for 'generic yokel accent', and if that's his natural accent I'll feel bad. It's just I've a feeling he's put on any old accent to stand for Welsh.

LRDLearningDomHome Tue 02-Jul-13 17:08:39

Gah. Diminutive

Ignore my spelling, it's only going to get worse.

alemci Tue 02-Jul-13 17:36:42

I got some old fashioned books out and sat in the library and read up about the wars of the roses and the kings. trouble is I can't remember half of it but interesting family trees etc.

we could do with a starkey series.

found the Phillipa Gregory book about the Rivers? lady of so will have a read of that.

wonder if there are still people out there with the surname Plantaganet or has it been shortened to plant.

LRDLearningDomHome Tue 02-Jul-13 17:44:49

Oh, I can't stand Starkey!

But I know what you mean.

I would also love to know if anyone has plantagenet as a surname.

Fiderer Tue 02-Jul-13 18:13:21

So, historical MNpedia, who was the French relative - the Duke of Burgundy (?) at the wedding who changed Warwick's France strategy?

And what was his France strategy?