Dreams Of A Life - Joyce Vincent - Channel 4

(149 Posts)
SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 22:24:41

Are you watching?

What are your thoughts?

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 22:25:37

I am 38. If it was not for my DS this could be me.

Moving and sad.

JaneLane Thu 07-Feb-13 22:57:34

If it's the documentary about the women who died and wasn't found for three years I watched it on Netflix a few weeks ago and cried like a baby.

No one should be that alone.

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 22:58:00

Estranged from her family, lots of relationships, lived in many.different.places. Seemed she hadn't found the right guy for ger.

Terrible shame

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 23:00:04

She had a good life on the putside. I think she could have been abused as a child or maybe mental illness.

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 23:06:11

I wonder how her relationships ended. The guy she stayed with Jimmy Cliff fir the weekend.. Where was he?

Maybe she suffocated them/expected to much as she didnz.t have her own interests?

It's making me cry. No-one should be that alone. Massive discrepancy between her life in her twenties and being dead at 38.

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 23:08:15

I am wondering why her Sisters declined to be interviewed?

Sinkingfeeling Thu 07-Feb-13 23:33:54

So sad sad

SucksToBeMe Thu 07-Feb-13 23:40:04

The family must be too embarrassed. She seemed such a lovely person, I work in a care home with such a large amount of residents with no family, who never had children. I can understand how it would happen. hmm

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 23:44:06

Was that actually Joyce clapping watching Nelson Mandella?

ookoro Thu 07-Feb-13 23:44:25

The documentary isn't entirely true. I have scoured other sources of the internet and read accounts from the creator of the film.

Her sisters noticed she was missing. They'd hired a private detector to find her before she died and who continued to investigate after she died. The investigator was clearly rubbish.

Read this link bluecentric.com/?p=39430

catladycourtney1 Thu 07-Feb-13 23:44:42

I think it's very sad and strange. I read about this probably about two years ago and at that point, I used to wonder a lot how long it would take someone to find me if I dropped dead.

I also wonder why her electricity was never cut off in three years? And why no neighbours reported not having seen her coming and going, or the smell even? Very odd.

ookoro Thu 07-Feb-13 23:44:53

The story is still a very sad one though

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 23:45:33

Yep and the residents whose children don't give a crap for various reasons.

germyrabbit Thu 07-Feb-13 23:45:36

what a sad story, assuming that was her at the end. life is strange isn't it.

JaneLane Thu 07-Feb-13 23:48:06

That's interesting ookoro - maybe the sisters didn't like how the documentary was portraying it?

When I watched it it made me think of some of the people I've known in my life but haven't seen for years.

out2lunch Thu 07-Feb-13 23:50:12

Don't forget we have seen a film about her.life not a documentary
I think a lot of the gaps have been filled in and some facts glossed over -the polish boyfriend and dv story would have maybe led somewhere

I have heard about her story.before and iirc her window was left open and her flat was above a stairwell so smell etc didn't directly affect other residents

Sad story even so really felt for Martin too

JaneLane Thu 07-Feb-13 23:56:29

The thing about the T.V being on also got to me. I'm not sure why but I think it provides such a stark contrast between life continuing on for three years and her undiscovered death.

SoleSource Thu 07-Feb-13 23:58:31

She withdrew from life.

Open verdict

Wondering if she did kil herself..

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 00:08:06

I wished she could have had children. Shewas very hurt, damaged she felt she didnt fit in, nobody understood herand she.didnt deserve love.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 00:54:48

very sad, although i do very much get the impression that she withdrew herself from life. something i can very much empathise with.

i think she would have had to have done to get to the stage where no-one called on her or rang to chat in a 3 year time frame. i think there were definitely issues that she was wrestling with and possibly depression? i do understand that wanting to be invisible and just wanting to be left alone to disappear. having children would have most likely meant this didn't happen. (the disappearance/withdrawal rather than the feelings of wanting to although possibly both)

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 08:49:05

I cannot stop thinking about her.

It was very haunting. Yes that was her at the end of the film, clapping Mandela.

I think a lot was assumed because there were no real facts. Could have been natural causes, asthma attack. She could have had very bad depression and killed herself although nothing was found to indicate that.

Had no idea about the Private detective and it's a shame that wasn't mentioned. I just keep wondering who the Christmas presents were for.
So sad.

germyrabbit Fri 08-Feb-13 10:17:44

i do think that one of the contributors said something really quite poignant, that she chose to die alone, she did have so many opportunities to be happy yet something always held her back. i lived really near that estate, it is horrible and not designed with communities in mind. sad

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 11:15:21

I wonder who her ex abusive boyfriend was? Who knows what kind of life her Father gave her as a child.

I watched it and found it terribly sad. It was slightly haunting, almost. I did think that perhaps what someone said about her choosing to withdraw from people and die alone was maybe just them trying to deal with their own guilt about the situation.
Also thought Martin seemed lovely.
It seems so bizarre to me that at no point did anyone force entry to her flat, I didn't know til this thread that her sisters had hired a private investigator.....did the layout of her building mean that looking through her living room window was impossible?

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 12:03:48

I wondered tgat about hetwindow

Imaginethe shock of seing her skeletal body

she was a free spirit and wantedher Mother and Fatbers love.

She drifted searchingfor it

She felt she didn't velong

ohfunnyhoneyface Fri 08-Feb-13 14:53:44

Such a sad story- really mysterious.

I read about it in the paper years ago. Never forgot the story- so many gaps and questions that can never be answered.

It shows how easy it is to slip down into the millions and just get lost.

FairyJen Fri 08-Feb-13 15:01:12

I watched this a while ago ad it is one of those program's that stays with you. I can very easily see how this happens. I live in London and talk to none of my old friends. I never even told them I ha left Sheffield to move to the midlands! People eventually stop trying to get in touch and life gets int he way.

I don't think it was suicide my understanding was that she has actually been in and had been seen by medical professionals prior to her death?

The Xmas presents were very sad. As for her sisters I haven't seen mine for 3 years or spoken to her. I can well imagine a similar thing happenin to her if I'm honest

FairyJen Fri 08-Feb-13 15:01:54

*ill

ohfunnyhoneyface Fri 08-Feb-13 15:02:51

That's it, isn't it, FairyJen? So easy to imagine it happening.

FairyJen Fri 08-Feb-13 15:04:12

On a very very selfish note if I didn't pay my council tax etc they would be round within three days to chase me!

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 15:15:23

Maybe she wasso damagedshe could not take drifting from petson to.person anymore. Her confidebcehad been far too badly damaged so she stayed away from people.

Wowserz129 Fri 08-Feb-13 15:37:36

I felt really awful for Martin as he clearly really loved her and it sounded like he was getting overwhelmed by the end of the interview.

It is such a chilling story and the main thing that is strange is how she died. The show touched upon that she seemed in a bad place when she was bunking in at martins place on the couch but they didn't seem to go in depth about that stuff.

Such a shame

ohfunnyhoneyface Fri 08-Feb-13 15:40:37

I think the lack of speculation in the doc was actually a good thing- as there IS no clear answer, no real solution, they left a lot unexplored.

The fact that the family allegedly contacted a PI for me, rings untrue. She wouldn't have been that hard to find...or perhaps, if it is true, it just shows how much she didn't want to be found.

I also can't help but think...who were those presents for?

noddyholder Fri 08-Feb-13 15:42:40

Its an amazing thought provoking film about how much we ever really know anyone sad

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 15:45:07

Wasnn't Joyce in a safe house?

Maybe that is why the PI could not find her??

Who was this ex that beat her, the poluce must know..

NightingalesOde Fri 08-Feb-13 17:14:49

I found the film very intriguing and sad. The actress who played her, portrayed her well, but I must admit that I kept thinking of her character of Vod from Fresh Meat, in which she is crazily confident, hard looking, sexy, arrogant and deluded, all at the same time! Joyce Vincent had a somewhat softer and kinder look to her face and that combined with her allure and awareness of having a great body must have driven men to distraction when she chose to turn it on.

It seems that she had an ideal of the life she wanted to live and when that didn’t materialise she adopted the attitude that she would fake it until she made it. Sometimes this attitude succeeds for people but it necessitates never being too close or they will discover where you live and what you do and the loneliness must have been preferable to the shame of any ordinariness that closeness would have brought. I’m not sure that I agree that having children would have been good for her. Most of them time, it means standing at the gates every day, seeing many of the same people who ask questions and get to know what you are doing in the community, it means doing what you say you will do, stability and commitment – qualities that felt were countered to her wish for a life of mystery and glamour.

It struck me that she was trying to find a way out of a dreary life and as I think they said, Martin, however kind, was perhaps just a stepping stone to another life. The whiteboard showed Goodwood, acting lessons etc, so she clearly had a drive to get to a certain point in her life. By the end, it seems that she viewed Martin as a brother or father figure, what a shame that she couldn’t have confided in him! Who had criticized her so much that she couldn’t admit the truth, even to him? Why did he ask her when she would be leaving, if he adored her so? Was there a girlfriend on the scene? I would have liked to have known so much more.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 17:31:04

Yup who had criticized her.that much? Her Father I reckon... I wondered why he was keen for her to leave so much too...Martin came home from work and she was gone..she had pride

NightingalesOde Fri 08-Feb-13 18:04:32

Was Martin's reason for wishing her to leave, edited out or was he not asked further on the subject by the director? He said that the flat was small but if she was the love of his life then that would not have mattered to him. He is obviously a nice guy but I sense that he wasn’t enough for her and perhaps she wanted a life of fame, glamour and excitement?

And the song she sang, transported me back to the early 90s, it had similarities to a Primal Scream song from back then. Why didn’t the song succeed with the men making it being her friends? Surely they would have readily promoted her? Her voice maybe wasn't perfect but it had emotion. I would have probably bought it at the time. I would buy it now if it raises awareness of the issues she and many others share.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:07:55

Martin said he askedher to be his girlfriebd again but she said she didn't want to go over old ground. This must have been after she called the dread lock guy and he refused her offerto hook up again. Maybe she was emotionally backward or they sensed she migt have been using them. Martin said he thought six mo.ths was long enough and she should leave to sort her lufe out.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:09:12

I liked her voice too although.i think tbe big guy with the black top [god he was sexy] said she couldb't sing and she could mime at the back.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:10:25

"I’m not sure that I agree that having children would have been good for her. Most of them time, it means standing at the gates every day, seeing many of the same people who ask questions and get to know what you are doing in the community, it means doing what you say you will do, stability and commitment – qualities that felt were countered to her wish for a life of mystery and glamour. "

what i meant was that it would have made it almost impossible for her to disappear and lose touch with everyone who knew her. i know because it's my dcs that keep me from being a total recluse when i have been very low. there are routines that must be followed and i have to leave the house every day or people in authority would start looking for my dcs. through her theoretical children joyce would possibly have been protected from her fate of dying alone, unless that was what she really really wanted of course even with children.

noddyholder Fri 08-Feb-13 18:15:17

I got the feeling she wanted to disappear. She was able to infiltrate lots of different groups because people liked her and she was attractive but she never stayed with any of them. Some people just drift

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:17:03

i think martin was her 'safe' person. i just got that impression from how he spoke and the way she came to him when she has nowhere else. i think she felt safe with him and knew she wouldn't have to divulge too much, that he would let her stay without too much questioning. then of course he did start questioning (pressuring?) and she needed to go then.

i did notice though that although martin said he had said he thought 6 months was enough time to sort herself out and that he had asked her when she was leaving, he then followed up by saying "she could have stayed as long as she wanted. she knew that" but how can she have if he was asking when she was going? it annoyed me when he said that tbh.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:17:53

She was afraid of livong tbe dream of marriage and children said one of her ex boyfriends. It is mostly down toher childhood. Such a waste. sad

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:19:39

Me too Booyhoo wrt to what Martin said.

Mind games maube. Because he felt rejected..

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:25:06

Ooh Martin stated that he thinks of Joyce constantly. He talks to her as if she is there.

I thought I was pnly one whom did that. She was the love of his life he said.

Martin hadn't seen her since 2002???

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:26:24

maybe. i can understand feeling frustrated after 6 months of someone on your sofa with no mention of why they're there (although it's not a big leap to realise she had nowhere else) or when they're leaving. and i can understand him asking her about it. but to say that she knew she could stay as long as she wanted is a lie if you do in fact feel frustrated and want a date named for her leaving.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:27:38

Mind games maybe..pressuring her to get in his bed?

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:29:25

did he know where she went when she left though? if she was in a safe house and then on again to other places he may not have been able to get in touch. although it didn't say that he had tried.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:30:53

She left whenhe was at work one day.

The order of evebts seemed confusing to me.. Did you feel confused too?

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:31:31

actually, he did say a payslip arrived for her cleaning job. i wonder if he contacted her to let her know, or even her employer to notify them that she didn't live there anymore.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:34:47

i definitely felt there was alot that wasn't being said or was deliberately left out of the film.

the interpretation of how she was in the flat on her own, singing, wrapping presents etc seemed to imply that it was known there was something not quite right with her. as if the death was imminent? but no-one can now surely?

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:36:40

know

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:38:15

Yes I felt the same

It felt mixed up.

Who was this Polish guy???

Msybe he threatened her.life and she withdrew?

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:46:36

yes, definitely something to do with him. did it say that the police were called over DV and something to do with money matters? or was that a different boyfriend?

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:48:58

Yeah DV over Polush guy, money matters too.

Wonder if he was quedtioned

Cannot stop wondering why she didn't cal the samarirans and the refuge peopke did not visit..

How many others are dead on their sidas

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 18:49:14

*sofas

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:58:01

yes i was wondering that too as i was watching the film. i wondered if there was anyone watching it who was in a similar situation and could recognise that. or if there were others that it was too late for that nobody had found yet. i'll bet there are sad

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 19:22:41

Yes sad

I think there should be a therapist or lessons in each school at an early age set up to deal with emotional abuse.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 19:36:49

i agree. schools need a massive overhaul IMO. there isn't enough focus at all on relationships (with everyone, not jsut romantic partners) or abuse or where to get help. i understand that it all costs money to do but emotional well being/awareness, relationship skills etc are all such a massive part of life from birth til death and unhealthy relationships cause so much damage to individuals and society even from an early age that it is worth investing in IMO.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 19:46:56

Such an important part of life. People need to kearn about their emotions and how to manage them etc

Joyce losing her Motner was a massive thing. She seemed as if she was close with her.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 19:54:23

very close, and i think it was handled badly by her father. well i dont think. i know it was.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 19:57:14

I think he was abusive to her. Maybe ignoring her.upset.

NightingalesOde Fri 08-Feb-13 20:21:44

Booyhoo, you're right, marriage and children would have helped her, they would have had a stabilising influence. I am glad to read that they have been your saviour and you have escaped from your old life. Perhaps Joyce feared not being a good mother, of not having the discipline involved to do it, many friends had said that she was very messy, was her mind too haphazard to order her thoughts and she feared what would happen if she was not there for them?

I wonder if, in her mind, however she would have seen that as a sort of prison sentence, towing the line, an end to the dreams she held. She had acquired a sort of notoriety of being the different, exotic one who was always stylishly dressed and admired by men (a sort of high in itself) and that would end, to some extent without enough money to fund a lifestyle where she would have enough time for herself and her ideal of pursuing her dreams. Men would no longer circle her if she was attached and with children, her currency/demand would decline and she would feel stuck.

It might have also been that she felt financial pressure to never be dependent on a man and yet also wanted to a SAHM if she were to have children and never the twain would meet? If she had seen her father playing away from home and a stressed/depressed mother, she may have had an acute fear of being in a situation where they were strapped for money but with the feeling of having been destined for better things. Friends had said that she had had a good upbringing and it was felt that her mother's family had been of high standing in her country of origin. Had her sisters married very well and she felt shame that her life wasn't the same?

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 21:40:48

nightingales i agree with all you have said.

something that may or may not be relevant to joyce's story but i'll share anyway. i personally have a huge internal struggle with not being perfect. so much so that if i think i cant do something 'perfectly' i wont do it at all. this comes right down to small things like i wont run a cloth round the bathroom to give it a quick clean, i have to do the whole lot and if i know i wont/cant do the whole lot i will leave it all until i can even to the point where it has gotten quite bad (same for the rest of the house). i have worked really hard and am making myself do just little bits at a time to prove to myself that doing enough is acceptable however i haven't yet been able to extend this to my life outside of the house and as a result my working life as come to a halt over the past 3 years for fear that whatever i do, it wont be perfect, i wont be the best at it and that people will know that i am not. i cannot begin to tell you how petrifying that fear of failure is and it has affected so much of my recent adult life that to an outsider or even to my family, i am stagnating, withdrawing etc. in my head though i know where i want to be and what i need to do to get there, i'm just struggling to make the leaps that i need to. i feel that there is an audience waiting for me to jump and fall and that is where the feelings of wanting to go far away and disappear come from. at times i feel i would love to go off with my children and live somewhere away from civilisation and just have no pressures to achieve or to plan or go anywhere in life. obviously i wouldn't do that, i dont think those around me would ever let me be alone- which is good as i dont think it would be good for me or my dcs.

i recognised alot of myself in last night's film and can understand very much joyce's need to be away from the (self created? or maybe she never wanted the attention at all) spotlight.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 21:45:13

just to add- i know that my fears come from my upbringing and particularly my father's attitude to achievements.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 22:03:51

I get all ypi say. I am very scatrd of failure now. I cannot.move on anymore thank god I have my DS. He saved me.

NightingalesOde Fri 08-Feb-13 22:24:14

Booyhoo, the very fact that you are overcoming it is an achievement. What you say is very interesting. The formative years are at the root of so many adult issues. Did your father feel as though he hadn't achieved enough and projected onto you?

Sometimes if I see a messy room, I think that I cannot stand it as it is and yet I cannot stand the tedium of cleaning it! The only way I can get through it is by writing a list and breaking it down into smaller parts to gain some sense of achievement of ticking it off a list. Another one is saying rational people put the dishwasher on everyday, clean the kitchen surfaces etc. and that ensures that it gets done everyday. Everyone needs to motivate themselves to some extent. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly I can tidy up if a friend lets me know that they are dropping by! In the bathroom, rather than letting things build up, I will clean 3 tiles everytime I visit the bathroom and the cumulative effect of this habit gets things done without it becoming too big a deal where I feel like I am sacrificing my time. Little and often is the way too go.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 22:26:54

Oh jeez my.house is a fuckin state

I just cannot bring mysrlf to touch it

NightingalesOde Fri 08-Feb-13 22:33:11

I am sure that you are both very good mothers, you both have a high level of sensitivity and empathy and that makes children feel very cared for and cherished.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 22:34:44

i think his attitude is a direct result of his upbringing. he was never good enough for his father. if he got 99% he would have to explain the lost 1%. he was also the middle of 9 children and belittling each other was sport for them.

he did the same with us as children and even now as an adult i try not to tell him if i am attempting something or even if i suceed. he looks for any negative. it's quite soul destroying tbh as i would love him to just say "well done" even if he doesn't think it's any great acheivement.

yes i am managing now to keep on top of dishes and washing and the bathroom most days. i have agreed with myself an acceptable level to do each day and i'm even starting to stop beating myself up if i dont manage it all everyday. it has been a slow process but i can see how far i have come since the worst days.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 22:40:35

life seems to come easier for some than for others doesn't it.

NightingalesOde Fri 08-Feb-13 22:50:24

I can really sympathise with that Booyhoo. Sometimes they mellow as they get older, they fear loneliness, death and realise that the carers in an old people's home will not brook any of that critical nonsense!

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 23:02:28

oh he has mellowed in ways and in others i think he has gotten worse. i just know what subjects are safe and which to avoid. i make a point of always proudly announcing my dcs acheivements (even just tiny things) to him. sort of to let him know that my dcs are not fair game and that i will not partake in belittling them so he daren't try and also to try and make him see that there are other ways he could have been with us. i dont know if that has worked or not but i'm not going to stop. my dcs will get the praise they deserve.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:04:14

Three whole years!
I wonder if she was going to deliver the presents to old friends or family too

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 23:21:27

apologies for thread hijack sole

i wonder how close to xmas she died, whether she would have labelled them and delivered them. i wonder if she'd done it the year before.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:24:14

Apologies??

Nooo its our thread

I just wish I was her friend

I wonder if she.knew..her neighbours

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:26:46

4seven, freeview 47

Now

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:37:22

Shortly before Joyce died she went.into.hospital with an asthma attack. Her next of kin was her bank manager! sad
I don't have next of kin either. No.joke.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:38:38

Martins Father was racist therefore Martin did not want 'tinted' children.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 23:40:19

something changed. something happened to her to trigger her withdrawal. someone who wasn't in the film will know what.

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 23:43:03

yes that's right, i remember him saying that. do you think that affected her answer when she said she didn't want to be with him the second time?

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:46:27

sad yes oh scary

I wish she'd have rung me, because I would have helped, becaise I love you, Martin.

If only she'd have known

I suspect there was a possibility he' d not made that clear?? Or he did

Teats are flowing now, the end scebe with her beautiful, soft, kind face.

SoleSource Fri 08-Feb-13 23:49:52

Yes, didnt want to rske over.old ground was her reply.

Her Father was Black, her Mother Indian. According to friends she didn't have many hang.ups about her heritage. She loked into tbe petson to decide if they were wirth kniwing or nott.
f I had a time machine..

Booyhoo Fri 08-Feb-13 23:56:23

why didn't people try harder to keep her in their lives? she was such a lovely person, she seemd so alive and ambitious with her singing, she enjoyed her fashion and style, why didn't she have shopping buddies? why didn't the music friends want to promote her and see where it went? i dont blame any of those people, i just dont understand it. sad

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 00:09:35

I have a hunch that things became awkward so she left people. Maybe their relationships with their parents made her think.about what she had lost/never had. The lonliness resurfaced and in the end the only way to escape this constant reminder and her demons was to.withdraw.

You can see from my thread Booyhoo how I understand what.might have xaused Joyce to end her.life alone.

NightingalesOde Sat 09-Feb-13 00:15:56

Sorry for going off topic too SoleSource smile

I think that she was a very good actress and she may have said that she was doing this or that, she was so proud, that in the end it isolated her.

I agree about the shopping buddies, perhaps people always ended up asking too many questions and wanted to know more about her? I suppose it's a natural instinct.

When the black boyfriend (sorry, can't remember his name) said that she had no interests, I thought that was a bit unfair and a dismissive viewpoint - it sort of debased her identity to little more than appearance and a voice, which cannot have been true when she had so much vivacity. She had sung in a studio and put her voice to a record (how many people can say they have done that?) surely she was interested in music? As Sole has said, she was probably interested in fashion, plus she would have naturally have acquired knowledge though her job (was she working in a Treasury department or was this just something she told people?) She would have certainly have had a good geographical knowledge of London after living all over the capital, she would have had opinions on the good and bad places visit, the bars and the restaurants, and it was known that she liked to go clubbing and performing.

It is quite difficult to have no interests in any way, perhaps what they meant is that she didn’t feel proud to say what they were and to explore them and deepen them or that she just wanted to forget herself and make whoever was in her life her main focus to make them happy. Many women tend to do this in relationships but not everyone descends to a lonely death. I wish one of her sisters would explain more.

DoctorAnge Sat 09-Feb-13 00:20:08

This film has really touched me too.
I feel so much for her and almost feel she withdrew from the hard nature of life when a beauty grows older and things get more serious.
She seemed to blossom and thrive in the transient, youthful atmosphere of the communal homes and hustle and bustle. But that doesn't last forever. She didn't survive the next step.
She just wilted like a flower. She didn't cope.
So tragic but totally understandable somehow.

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 00:24:20

i'm wondering if she happened to gravitate towards self involved people who didn't ask her anything about herself, didn't ask her what she got up to on her day off or where she gets her hair done. maybe she did that deliberately or sub consciously, but yes i agree she was bound to have some interests that weren't extensions of who she happened to be with at the time.

did anyone notice an edge to the woman with the very curly hair? i think she was her flatmate at one point. i got the impressions she didn't really like joyce TBH.

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 00:25:22

i'll go as far as to say i felt she seemed jealous of joyce.

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 00:26:05

Me too Booy

I did not like her. Cold, snob!!! Probably jealous.

Ifonly Joyce had had Mumsnet back then!!!

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 00:29:30

god yes! she could have had all the support without having to explain herself to anyone in RL.

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 00:30:45

sad too late for her wasn't it?

Tragic

Imagine how many lives this site has saved?

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 00:31:38

But we have no idea what the cause of death was.

NightingalesOde Sat 09-Feb-13 00:33:51

Yes, the transience and power of beauty, she was at her best when making an impact, as the guys fondly recalled her wearing her powder blue, spray on dress! Why not, if you are young and have it going on! The addiction of turning heads and creating a buzz at a party must have been a highlight of her week, she felt wanted and desired. Her friends started settling down and the guys who were not good, perhaps were no longer entranced as she wasn't a newcomer.

On the website, it says that she worked at Ernst, some women can immerse themselves in their job and manage to reach a level of seniority where asking too many personal questions is not a sign of respect, what stopped her getting to that level? Was she late or missed too many days through depression?

Do you think that she would have used Mumsnet had it been around?

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 00:46:03

I hope she would have. In her flat on her phone. One or two reads and the site is addictive.

NightingalesOde Sat 09-Feb-13 00:50:54

Oh God, yes, the envy was palpable.The dour one in the coat and the one that vaguely looked like Vanessa Williams in the red jumper seemed to me like envy, she naturally attracted men and was enjoying being young, did she steal others' boyfriends? If she did nobody said that, her only crime seemed to be being very attractive. Other women can say such cruel things and that can make someone very sensitive dwell to the point of obsession on what has been said. Did their envy of her ease in attracting men encourage awful comments that pushed her further into depression?

Was the woman in the red jumper supposed to have been a friend? She didn't seem to speak of her fondly, she was rolling her eyes about something (will have to go back and see what it was). If Joyce had been a difficult character, it would have been an idea to have given an example of why she was hard work.

My friend said that the dour woman in the coat looked as though she could barely disguise her surprised glee at her lack of qualifications (I found the reading out of each low grade qualification both disrespectful and unnecessary). Joyce would have hated that.

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 00:56:28

is it possible to die from lack of life? sad

nightingale yes i agree with your first paragraph. looks fade and novelty wears off, you can move on to new audiences but the looks still go and soon you aren't a pretty, young free and single thing, you're a middle aged woman with crows feet and no support network of friends who are in the same boat as you have continuously moved on from them. no-one to open a bottle with and laugh about the times you used to have together.

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 00:59:41

nightingale is this the woman that was with the man who knew joyce aswell? i really didn't like the part when they heard she had been cleaning as opposed to a job in the city. they were laughing at the idea of her cleaning and mocking her, saying about her doing it all glammed up and in her dresses. i didn't find that funny at all. i actually didn't really understand why they were in the film. they didn't seem to know her that well. it was almost as if they took part out of nosiness.

NightingalesOde Sat 09-Feb-13 01:08:10

Booyhoo, that is it exactly, who were they to her? They could have just been market stall holders that she bought her oranges from for all anybody knew. Had she blanked him? Better that she had the self respect and courage to get herself out and work, it must have been very difficult for her.

Who was the bald headed guy with the radio presenter voice? Was he a DJ? I must have missed the very beginning where it was said.

SoggySummer Sat 09-Feb-13 01:14:12

It was very sad to watch. Really sticking with me.

I thought it was very sad that she had gone to the trouble to buy some people gifts for xmas and wrap them up but then no one noticed her absence for 3 years. Tragic sad

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 01:21:30

i think they were ex colleagues. they talked of her leaving party and how she said she was leaving to go travelling, i think in about 2001.

i think that guy was a DJ. definitely something in the music industry.

NightingalesOde Sat 09-Feb-13 01:25:41

It really was. Everyone seemed to assume that someone else was looking out for her and perhaps she gave the impression that she had a busy social life. I just don't understand how the tv was still on? The electricity company would have turned off her supply, wouldn't they?

NightingalesOde Sat 09-Feb-13 01:26:55

Aah, right, thanks for filling me in booyhoo.

DoctorAnge Sat 09-Feb-13 07:37:56

I thought the way they laughed at her cleaning job was awful. sad
She had dignity, and needed to work.

The more I think about this the more I think the abusive "polish boyfriend" may have been the tipping point that ruined her life.

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 10:24:47

Martin seemed to have cated. The othets were spiteful, nosy, jealous bastards.

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 11:13:08

Yes, I wonder if she knew people would laugh at the idea of her cleaning and that was part of why she hid it. Those weren't friends. Not at all.

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 11:36:37

I felt uncomforyable when watching those people. I am glad somebody else here said so first. Theymafe me feel as if they were tbere for the fame and SHE andHER were jealous of her.looks.

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 12:53:38

yes i felt the same. i actually thought they must have been school friends at first because they didn't seem 'attatched' to her emotionally. almost like they had come to a school reunion to find out how people had turned out. there didn't seem to be any upset to them by any of the revelations the researcher/interviewer told them. apart from them and the woman in the red jumper, everyone else seemed to talk fondly of her.

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 13:36:44

The makerof the film possibly wanted to show how uncaring tbey were.

R.I.P Joyce

Wonder if anybody was at her.funeral? sad

Booyhoo Sat 09-Feb-13 13:57:23

good question.

RIP Joyce

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 14:47:35

Her friends were surprised that.she 'ended up in social housing'.

No fucking wonder she.couldn't ask them for help.

noddyholder Sat 09-Feb-13 14:51:27

Do you think she wanted help though? I got the feeling she had re invented herself and her background education etc and she just wanted to keep moving on and not commit to a lifestyle. I thought all the friends seemed strange including the ex boyfriend I don't think anyone really 'knew' her at all.

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 14:55:10

Who kniws but they were a bunch of people that struck me to be unable to understand people from another social status.

Some of her isolation was by her own creation.

As is mibe

I cannot stand people loking down tbeir noses at me but I guess I am.guilty.of it also

Pride cones before a fall

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 15:04:49

The television was tuned to BBC1.

I am trying to find details about her funeral. Nothing so far..

SoleSource Sat 09-Feb-13 20:22:21

The last time she was spotted was in2002. Maybe she just wanted some time on ger own to gather strength, find out what her next move would be. Natural causes got her.

Booyhoo Sun 10-Feb-13 13:32:21

i was thinking more about this last night.

she had to eat, i'm guessing she shopped near to where she lived. did none of the shop staff recognise her when the news came out about her body being found? even if she didn't buy newspapers or clothes or get her hair done, she had to eat. she was in a council house and not working when she died (i assume as no-one reported her missing from work) so i doubt she was having takeaway delivered everyday. i know she lived in a busy shopping area but surely staff would have begun to recognise a face coming in every week, even if she didn't chat (which would surprise me as she seemed very chatty)

SoleSource Sun 10-Feb-13 13:39:54

Yep I thought the same thing. Very. Strange.

Booyhoo

Do you think Joyce left relationships because things were awkward between them therefore people didn't feel able to cobtact her again and vice versa?

CountTurdula Sun 10-Feb-13 13:54:41

The woman in red was no friend. The way she spoke about Martin was disgusting. (I'm paraphrasing here but the gist is obvious) "We thought she'd get with someone gorgeous, hunky, successful, black etc etc but looks weren't important to Joyce. We were shocked to meet Martin..." She must have known he'd watch it too? hmm

I was saddened when the party thrown for her 21st consisted of Martin's friends. People she didn't really know.

I know the girl who played Joyce. She was my sister's housemate at uni in Manchester. Stunning girl.

SoleSource Sun 10-Feb-13 14:03:10

The actress is stunning.

There was racism. People saying she needed a real Black man. My ex is Black I wouldn't call that a real.man!!

Booyhoo Sun 10-Feb-13 14:08:36

yes sole

i was also wondering if she may have 'manufactured' some of the awkwardness in order to create space for herself. i say this becasue i know that at times when i have been very low and my home has been really bad i have intentionally been closed off from friends so as to avoid having to turn them away at the door. that sounds awful and i know i was a bad friend but at those times i really couldn't cope with them seeing how bad i had let things get. still no-one knows how bad i was and that is because i purposelly withdrew contact, avoided answering the phone, made up excuses not to meet up etc. i know one friend was really hurt by this and confused becasue as far as she knew everything was the same as it always had been and she took it personally (as anybody would) that i didn't want her around for a while.

CountTurdula Sun 10-Feb-13 14:12:59

My dh is black and asked me if it would be acceptable if my friends said I needed a real white man? I didn't what to say. We've had opposition from both sets of family and friends but no one actually brazen enough to suggest the colour of the man to sort out my sexual needs.

SoleSource Sun 10-Feb-13 14:15:15

the guy with dread locks who had Jimmy Cliff stay at his house was very racist.

SoleSource Sun 10-Feb-13 14:20:16

I have been there Booyhoo. It is pride. Cannot blame her.or us..

The woman in the red jacket lives in Florida USA

CountTurdula Sun 10-Feb-13 14:20:21

Yep.

DoctorAnge Sun 10-Feb-13 14:58:02

I also think there was an element of "she's fine she will land on her feet" thinking about the way people perceived her.
The whole point of the film seemed to be how little anyone actually knew her. She was ignoring people by the end as she was a smart Woman and knew they couldn't accept what her life had become after all the glamour.
I think she created illusions about herself. The reality was too painful.

SoleSource Sun 10-Feb-13 15:04:01

Maybe I could start a thread..

Did you know Joyce Carol Vincent?

NightingalesOde Sun 10-Feb-13 18:46:10

Yes do, SoleSource, there is a website but nothing wrong in covering all bases, an awful lot of people pass through and stop by at Mumsnet.

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 19:14:32

I think it's very easy to disappear in London. All my friends live in different corners of the city, everyone works crazy hours, everyone has different groups of friends. If someone doesn't turn up to your party, you tend to think they had something better to do. If you don't see someone for 6 months, it's not a huge deal. People move all the time, and it's not like you'd just pop round to someone's flat to see them without calling first.

There are some close friends that I would maybe check up on if I hadn't seen them, but to be honest, there are a lot of people that if I didn't see them for a bit, I'd just think that they'd moved on.

I worry about this kind of thing happening to me. I've never had a stable home, moved around a lot. Don't speak to my brother, don't have children, don't have a stable job, don't have any really close friends that live near me. I have mental health problems and I isolate myself a lot...I have a partner for now, but if we split up, I wonder who would notice that I was gone.

SoleSource Sun 10-Feb-13 20:02:55

I hope the replies keep on coming smile

I have started a thread in Chat.

Fingers crossed.

AmberLeaf Mon 11-Feb-13 14:32:16

I watched this last night.

I really felt for Martin. He must be tormented by 'what ifs'

The woman in the red jumper came across as sneery, yes she rolled her eyes when she said Joyce had 'the Sade thing' she did seem jealous.

Was it Alistair? the music producer one that she dated? he said she didn't have a good voice, yet everyone else spoke of her singing talent? he sounded quite negative about her. I wonder if he felt guilty for knocking her back when she got in touch and wanted to resume their relationship? That may explain his negativity.

The thing I didn't like about this film was the made up bits that they filled the holes with, I found the bits of her singing in her flat etc cringy, that was total fabrication and done in a way to make her look like a sad loner. she may well have been a loner, but no one has any idea of how she was living really. Its a shame they couldn't speak with anyone that knew who when she was living in Wood Green. that may have given a better picture of what life was like for her in the immediate run up to her death.

The film maker implied that there may have been abuse by her father, some of those interviewed hinted at it too, but was that because the film maker put that to them?

I had read about her family having hired a private detective to find her, that sounds like they thought she was ok, but was hiding?

Its possible that her withdrawal from her past, her wanting to not be found was because she was hiding from the polish boyfriend, if she was in fear of further harm from him that would make sense.

I think if her sisters had contributed to the film it would have made a lot more sense, I understand their desire for privacy though.

I haven't read anything about the sisters refuting the hinted abuse allegations, that may be because they are true or it may just be because they wanted to remain anonymous and were against the film?

Who were the christmas gifts for? they indicate that she was interacting with people or having relationships? did it say where she was working at the time of her death? if at all?

Amazed that her housing association waited 3 years before taking action about non payment of rent, particularly as she had been housed as a vulnerable person ie coming from a womans refuge. I read that they had reviewed their policy on that sort of thing since her death.

Very sad in all, sad that people can be so isolated. she isn't the first person to die alone like that and she wont be the last. Joyce stood out and was deemed interesting because she was fairly young and beautiful. I don't imagine they'd have made a film about her if she were 55 yrs old and not particularly attractive.

SoleSource Mon 11-Feb-13 14:37:19

Wow Amber!

Totally agree. Fab post, thank you very much for your input.

MechanicalTheatre Mon 11-Feb-13 15:59:04

Amber, I totally agree that the bits with her singing etc alone in her flat were a bit silly. I think it's an interesting enough story without extrapolating or dramatising.

AmberLeaf Mon 11-Feb-13 17:45:09

You're welcome Sole smile

MechanicalTheatre

Yes, it didn't need it really did it? I think it was the mix of film/dramatisation and documentary that was a bit sketchy?

It is an intriguing story though, I would like to know more about her, but doubt we ever will and that is possibly right. Its very personal isn't it, Ive often thought about the way when someone dies the details of their life can become public property.

SoleSource Mon 11-Feb-13 18:04:30

Carol Morley made a film entitled 'The Outlaw Years' wrt her drunken teenage day in the same format as 'Dreams Of A Life'.

MechanicalTheatre Mon 11-Feb-13 18:10:31

I didn't really think Martin came across that well to be honest. It was almost like he'd put her on a pedestal and thought she was too good for him.

SoleSource Mon 11-Feb-13 18:17:48

I am a sad loner and I use my hsirbrush to sing into all alone then cry.no.bullshit

AmberLeaf Mon 11-Feb-13 18:20:55

Yes Martin seemed to think he was 'punching above his weight' in having a relationship with her, I think that may have led to him allowing her to use him a bit?

Sole, Ive read about that film about her partying days I read a very scathing review someone posted online on a blog or something.

They did say though that to her credit she didn't edit out the parts where her ex friends slagged her off!

I wouldn't mind watching that actually.

AmberLeaf Mon 11-Feb-13 18:26:05

Sole, I dont do the hairbrush thing, but sometimes when im walking down the rd listening to my ipod, I imagine I am on stage singing the songs blush grin I can't sing for toffee though!

DoctorAnge Tue 12-Feb-13 15:57:56

That was " the alcohol years" it's an awful, cringey
Film but completely compelling.

SoleSource Tue 12-Feb-13 16:00:46

Oooh trust me!

AmberLeaf Tue 12-Feb-13 19:50:55

I need to watch the alcohol years.

SoleSource Thu 14-Feb-13 14:59:47

I have had this thought today. Visualised Joyce on sofa infront of television, dead. But she had no idea she was left there because she was dead! Comforting..

MamaMary Thu 14-Feb-13 19:47:16

I watched this on 4oD a few days ago.

They played an actual recording of Joyce singing (the one in the studio). Sorry, but Alistair was right - she couldn't sing for toffee. However, it's not surprising everyone thought she was a great singer because she looked and probably acted the part, e.g. in karaoke.

Agree that the sequence of the actress singing with her hairbrush was just silly and added nothing to the film - I nearly fastforwarded it. Overall the film lacked something - it seemed patchy and with loads of missing information. The stuff on the whiteboard was intriguing - but why just show it in passing without stating or analysing it? A straightforward documentary would have been more informative.

To be honest, Joyce seemed like the kind of woman who deliberately cut herself off from people. She made friends, or rather latched onto a boyfriend and his friendship group for a while, then after a while she moved on: literally changed her job, area and house. This is why no one questioned when she went missing for years. She hadn't maintained friendships.

Very sad story though.

SoleSource Thu 14-Feb-13 19:52:08

MamaMary agree. I think the hairbrush scene tried to demonstrate her ambitions of being a singer and herlonliness/upset over her.childhood.

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