Call the midwife

(541 Posts)


Mogandme Sun 20-Jan-13 19:46:15

Yes 8pm

Yayyy!! Can't wait grin

BertieBotts Sun 20-Jan-13 19:59:05

Oooh! I didn't realise grin Yay!

Nearly nearly

Oodsigma Sun 20-Jan-13 19:59:49

Yep . Am watching!

BertieBotts Sun 20-Jan-13 19:59:55

<now has to hide thread to avoid spoilers> - oops!

Commuters on their bikes!

MirandaWest Sun 20-Jan-13 20:02:48

Am watching smile

Oodsigma Sun 20-Jan-13 20:09:08

Love the history in this. Thinking about it being pre gas & air. This was about the time my BIL was born so not that long ago.

PenelopePisstop Sun 20-Jan-13 20:19:28

Bloody marvellous stuff!

HeavenlyAmy Sun 20-Jan-13 20:35:03

Grrr I thought it was on at 9pm. Will have to i-player it now!!! <leaves thread in case of any giveaways>

sailorsgal Sun 20-Jan-13 20:37:51

Brilliant so far! This storyline on the ship I vaguely remember from the book.

Bit bored of ladder climbing...

FrillyMilly Sun 20-Jan-13 20:38:19

I didn't realise this was back on sad

sailorsgal Sun 20-Jan-13 20:39:30

Thank God we have moved on since rope ladders or I would never get on dh's ship. grin

Shybairns Sun 20-Jan-13 20:39:50

Thoroughly enjoying it! A ship indeed!

Her bruising is horrible

Could any one of them be the father?

I don't get why the husband got her to get in the Car - was he prostituting her?

catinthesnow Sun 20-Jan-13 21:04:39

Yes, I think he was, Jazz. sad

Really bittersweet tonight. <sobs>

Yes I think so. I don't remember that from the books so I'm guessing that's a new bit. I do recognise the one on the ship though.

What was the prison sentence then for child neglect?

Scottishtanguera Sun 20-Jan-13 21:09:58

Yes, jazz, he was. I thought that right from the start then when her mum said about the rumours about them...
As someone up thread said, bloody marvellous stuff! Fab historical drama at it's best- so atmospheric, moving, uplifting and excellent story telling(love Vanessa Redgrave's voice). Every episode I laugh and cry.
That's all- just had to gush.

Heavywheezing Sun 20-Jan-13 21:10:28

Sorry I couldn't hear the tv, baby was waking with all the screaming when she was pushing.

What was the girl on the ship doing? Or what was her dad doing with her. I got the bit that she didn't know that she was pregnant.

catinthesnow Sun 20-Jan-13 21:11:24

She gave her children milk and alcohol to make them sleep while she was out but left a lit cigarette and the house caught fire.

ShowOfHands Sun 20-Jan-13 21:13:43

He definitely prostituted her in the book. I remember it. But didn't the midwives go round and find the dc alone? I'm sure I remember her peering through the letterbox and the dc are abandoned and filthy. It's been a long time since I read it though.

I'm sure she had more than one child in the book, I don't think there was a fire either.

The ship's girl, I think it was Chummy who went to her, and delivered the baby, and when she went back the following morning, the ship had gone.

Waswondering Sun 20-Jan-13 21:39:12

The girl on the ship was there to service the men folk as required .... Though a contraceptive failure saw her pregnant. Yes to Chummy delivering the bay on her own and the ship sailing away overnight so they didn't get into trouble.

Having said that, I was quite taken with Trixie's outfit if cropped trousers, scarf and sunglasses .... Tres chic!

PenelopePisstop Sun 20-Jan-13 21:40:55

And all those very handsome sailors :-)

Heavywheezing Sun 20-Jan-13 21:55:50

Thanks. I could only see the house on fire as well so I don't know what happened there either. But now I know.

ImKateandsoismywife Sun 20-Jan-13 22:03:04

Whos the actress that played Molly's mum? Shes so familiar but I can't place her! I love call the midwife and I'm so glad to see it back on smile

Shesparkles Sun 20-Jan-13 22:09:45

Was Molly's mum the woman who played Mandy Jordache (of body under the patio) in Brookside? Might not be, but she keeps coming to mind

MN044 Sun 20-Jan-13 22:14:42

Didn't she play Perks' wife in the Railway Children? I thought she was quite old then, but she can't have been!

ImKateandsoismywife Sun 20-Jan-13 22:20:38

I'm off to google and will report back, I'm sure I will kick myself when I work it out!

PenelopePisstop Sun 20-Jan-13 22:21:47

Bloody hell mno44 yes that's who she is! Well done you, that would've bugged me all night. As you say, she looked old then, but my mum looked older years ago than she does now :-)

GW297 Sun 20-Jan-13 22:23:11

I think she might have been in eastenders or something.

threesocksmorgan Sun 20-Jan-13 22:33:32
leaharrison11 Sun 20-Jan-13 22:45:06

So glad this is back on, cry every time tho ha

Clawdy Sun 20-Jan-13 22:45:36

Thought the bit with the blonde woman screeching and wanting gas and air was really badly acted...not a good start. The rest was fine,but I did think the abused wife was rather smartly dressed for someone living in supposed squalor. She just didn't look right.

ImKateandsoismywife Sun 20-Jan-13 22:46:26

Wow Threesocksmorgan I could kiss you! I was getting nowhere with google and it would have driven me crazy grin

threesocksmorgan Sun 20-Jan-13 23:13:58

I had to find out once i read this, i knew her from some where

mowbraygirl Sun 20-Jan-13 23:40:56

Really enjoyed tonights episode. At the end where they showed Mollys mum with the baby and little girl the baby was in a Silver Cross Carlton pram which wasn't manufactured till late 60's early 70's whereas the series was set in the 1950's. I bought mine in 1973 for my DD and my DS is now using it for his first DS.

The episode started at 1958 so might be possible that the ending coincided with the pram manufacture? They're normally historically accurate, it would annoy me too to find out it wasn't!

Adversecamber Mon 21-Jan-13 08:26:20

I cry almost non stop through every episode. I had a pram just like the one at the end and have photos of me sat in it.

I cry and smile and laugh at every episode too - brilliant tv!

hackmum Mon 21-Jan-13 08:50:11

Yes, in the book it's Chummy who does the delivery on the ship - I can see why for tv they had to have two midwives there, so one could voice out loud what the problem was. But I thought they were far too relaxed about the fact that the girl was being used as a prostitute by the whole ship - if the ship had stayed rather than sailed off (as in the book), surely they would have felt obliged to report it to the police? Or at least expressed more horror about it?

I don't remember the DV story from the book but have obviously just forgotten it.

Am I right in thinking that at one point Chummy says "you are six fingers dilated"? (Which is impossible, of course.) Or did I mishear?

ppeatfruit Mon 21-Jan-13 08:54:36

Such heartbreaking stories I cried as well. Yes apart from the screaming woman (i don't remember going to sleep with gas and air it must 've been stronger then or something grin) I reckon this is one of the best acted, written and directed things on telly.

I certainly didn't go to sleep with gas and air - must've been better back then!

Clawdy Mon 21-Jan-13 09:15:23

I wondered about that pram,too. Not sure they always get it right, think Chummy made a joke about Speedy Gonzales to the screaming Pat Boone fan,and that record wasn't released till the early sixties.

mrsjay Mon 21-Jan-13 09:19:18

love call the midwife found last nights really hard going though it was gritty wasn't it, the poor women being exploited by men that girl on the ship shock I suppose it did hapen but ... I do love sister evangiline she is fab and so grumpy

mrsjay Mon 21-Jan-13 09:22:47

. The rest was fine,but I did think the abused wife was rather smartly dressed for someone living in supposed squalor. She just didn't look right.

I think she was keeping herself 'looking nice' for her husband he was dapper too she was very young and didnt see anything past her husband she wouldnt have seen her dirty house or scared little girl she couldn't see past her romantic notion of her husband she was brainwashed poor girl,

ppeatfruit Mon 21-Jan-13 09:36:12

yes mrsjay that 's what I was thinking about the poor 'used' wife. I noticed the TV they had which was probably on the H.P. they could only've got that sort of money if she'd been on the game (i never caught what the shxx husband did for a job).

Would she have had a reasonable defence back then or would they not have seen her controlling abusive husband as worse than her?

mrsjay Mon 21-Jan-13 09:41:45

she would have been seen as more guilty than him she left her children regardless of what he did, men I would assume were not seen as main carers but they both did go to prison for it,

True sad
He was a total shit.
Does anyone know what prison sentence they wouldve recieved?
<too into this!>

mrsjay Mon 21-Jan-13 09:53:33

oh not sure a few years Id expect,

LaVolcan Mon 21-Jan-13 10:01:22

They must have listened to us when Chummy is made to say six fingers dilated because this was an accurate description of the way they measured in those days. Presumably 1 finger = 1 cm because someone fully dilated was 'ten fingers'. During the last series I remember we on MN took the scriptwriters to task for talking about dilation in cms.

I don't think the doctor would have been rushing round with gas and air though - another piece of dramatic licence. I think there was something called Minnett apparatus which midwives could bring round.

mrsjay Mon 21-Jan-13 10:05:58

they wouldn't be able to get the gas and air on the bikes though grin but yes his running himself ragged was just for dramatic effect

ppeatfruit Mon 21-Jan-13 10:17:16

I haven't read the books but thought it was all true, so not quite then? hmm

LaVolcan Mon 21-Jan-13 10:30:26

I have just found this:

Almost unbelievably it seems the Minnett apparatus was carried on the backs of bikes.

seoladair Mon 21-Jan-13 11:19:26

My 20 month old has a 1970s Silver Cross Grosvenor and it looks identical to the pram in last night's Call the Midwife. I'm sure that model wasn't around in 1959. Sorry for the pedantry - I love Call the Midwife!

zukiecat Mon 21-Jan-13 11:31:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

atthewelles Mon 21-Jan-13 12:39:22

I really enjoyed it. It was also nice to see Trixie and the younger nun being given decent storylines. Trixie is very underused and I think she's a great character. I know she was a very minor character in the book (in fact I don't think she was a real person but an amalgamation of a few people Jennifer Worth worked with) but I think she works brilliantly on telelvision. There's also nothing like a bit of hopeless yearning and unrequited love for dramatic effect.

Heavywheezing Mon 21-Jan-13 13:05:02

Does chummy leave in the book? Just when she had settled down too.

LaVolcan Mon 21-Jan-13 13:10:54

I'm not sure whether she leaves during the book, but at some stage it says that she and her husband go off to Africa. That might be afterwards when Jennifer Worth had moved on. Can't remember exactly.

mayhew Mon 21-Jan-13 13:22:18

Chummy and husband moved to Sierra Leone as missionaries where they had several children and he helped develop their police service and she taught midwifery. They could do with going back now!

Does chummy leave soon? sad

hackmum Mon 21-Jan-13 17:37:54

" Presumably 1 finger = 1 cm because someone fully dilated was 'ten fingers'."

Well, it's a bit odd. You wouldn't actually put six fingers inside someone's vagina, would you? I've never heard anybody talk about more than "three fingers" dilated, which I think is between 3 and 5cm. But maybe it was different in ye olden days.

mrsjay Mon 21-Jan-13 17:39:55

I think they used to get ten fingers up there hack grin

BartletForTeamGB Mon 21-Jan-13 18:11:59

Of course they didn't put both hands up to check dilatation but it was done the same as now with 1 finger being roughly 1 cm.

hackmum Mon 21-Jan-13 20:27:26

Fingers are still used as a measurement of dilation, but I've never heard anyone use the term "six fingers dilated". That's all.

Sabriel Mon 21-Jan-13 20:51:34

I've just read the book. Molly had 2 little boys who she neglected, and the new baby was a girl. The MW went round and the children were on their own with an unguarded paraffin heater so she got the grandma round and the police broke in. Then the husband came back and said he would look after the kids and there was nothing they could do sad

She was back on the game less than 2 weeks after giving birth shock. Couldn't have been particularly pleasant for the punters, never mind Molly.

diddl Mon 21-Jan-13 21:07:59

"i don't remember going to sleep with gas and air"

I did!

I remember waking up & husband saying how quiet I´d been!

BertieBotts Mon 21-Jan-13 23:08:14

The books are true life stories, the series adds a bit of artistic licence, some more "rounded" endings etc.

diddl Tue 22-Jan-13 07:41:43

So in reality, the Captain´s daughter gave birth & wasn´t seen again?

What happened to Molly?

Was she charged?

Did she go to prison?

I don´t like how they are changing it tbh-as if the "happy ending" makes up for all the bad!

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 08:39:40

I remember waking up & husband saying how quiet I´d been!

so did I it zonked me my husband was holding the tube and i woke up accusing him of stealing my gas and air and it was mine grin probably with a demonic voice, I bloody loved gas and air , no wonder the Dr was run ragged once the word got round how good it is

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 08:40:46

the books are really grim some of the stories they wouldn't be able to adapt them for sunday night telly if they didnt change the stories, ( i havn't read them all )

diddl Tue 22-Jan-13 08:42:34

But prostituting out your wife & daughter are pretty grim anyway-no happy ending takes that away!

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 08:44:55

god yes of course TBh i think it is on too early and should be on at 9 and not 8

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 08:47:00

I think the bit at the end where the children are with granny is just to finish it off and not make it so hard hitting? I thought the who exploitation of the 2 women disturbing and not cheery sunday night telly, My dd was opened mouthed watching and couldn't beleive the sailors could do that, My dd is 14 so not little but

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 10:00:54

Yes maybe it should start at 9 but then it would clash with Mr Selfridge which is also enjoyable in a less disturbing way though!

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 10:03:04

Oh no we can't have clashing with Mr selfridge grin

diddl Tue 22-Jan-13 10:05:50

Yes I suppose it´s the "pay off" between staying true to the books/turning it down a notch-so that you can have 8pm & more viewers??

Cynic? Moi??

I don´t watch Eastenders, but what time is that on, & what sort have things have they "got away with" in the name of "drama"?

I only remember the baby swapping storyline.

BertieBotts Tue 22-Jan-13 10:09:31

I thought she did go to prison? I can't remember TBH, been a long time since I read them. But I doubt they would have gone to the mother.

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 10:10:52

they did say at the end they both went to prison

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 10:18:17

Yes I remember that about the prison too mrsjay I then thought what happens when they come out hmm sad Unless the gran moved far away with the DCs the shxx would find them and it would start again.

diddl Tue 22-Jan-13 10:22:09

I wondered what happened in the book with Molly.

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 10:23:35

I think the gran was their carer after that , <far to involved> I was thinking after watching those kids will be in their 50s/60s now I wonder if they watched and recognised themselves, I know in the book they are boys but still,,

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 10:31:40

That's a thought mrsjay shock

I was wondering about contraception it'd been around since the 2Os why TF were women who had too many kids still going on having them? (that screaming woman saying about her DD 'oh there's more like 'er at home' like she didn't give a shxx) At least the poor swedish girl HAD contraceptives.

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 10:35:10

they would have been expensive and it was just condoms available I think that for working class married women pregnancy and babies were just a given 1 child was just like another,

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 11:03:15

They must 've been VERY poor and or ignorant then 'cos MIL and her siblings who were WC had one or NONE at that time, and before then actually (fed up with the big families that THEIR parents had). There are other ways too besides condoms grin.

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 11:07:31

I suppose you are right it was 1958 not 28 so they did know how to stop it perhaps it was more a wifely duty thing ? my nana had 8 children her last was 1953 so I dunno

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 11:44:54

Or they were R.C's?

ShephardsDelight Tue 22-Jan-13 12:48:03

Did anyone catch earlier on in the episode when her husband is talking , 'I can't now but I'm nearly term' 'But we've got no money!' I thought .prostitution! but I did read the book too.

Yeah I was sure it was Chummy on the boat! I was like eh? I wonder why they changed that, and in the book the Captain sleeps with his daughter too boak

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 12:55:33

Do you know shephards I got the feeling from the actor (he was a good actor) that that was probably the case; if it wasn't true you wouldn't believe it would you ? It's soo terrible shock

ShephardsDelight Tue 22-Jan-13 13:03:47

I just thought as soon as I heard, which was clever of the programme, most people will have missed that. I was wondering why would someone so jealous/possessive have his wife sleep with other men even if it is for money?.

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 13:08:56

maybe RC pip or they just liked lots of sex and couldn't work out their cycle, My nana wasn't RC and had loads of kids one after the other,

the expoiltation of both those women on sunday was just heart breaking I wonder how old the captains daughter was when the mother died , yes it is for control and money shephards

ShephardsDelight Tue 22-Jan-13 13:19:03

The girl was 14 when she first went on the ship in the book and the captain had his go first I think boak , I laugh when people say it is too grim, Its nowhere near as near to the knuckle as the book, I think its a great alternative to 'Lark rise etc'.

I'm not looking forward to the bit about women making them selves miscarry , from what I read in the book sad.

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 13:22:25

, I laugh when people say it is too grim, Its nowhere near as near to the knuckle as the book, I think its a great alternative to 'Lark rise etc'.

I read the first book is there more ? yes it is grim and i dont think the programme shows how grim it probably was it is implied though so the viewer can understand what they mean ( if that makes sense), I watch with dds youngest 14 I dont think i would watch with a 10 yr old

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 13:23:06

and my memory is rubbish I only remember bits and bobs of what I read blush

ShephardsDelight Tue 22-Jan-13 13:26:15

yes there is 2 more, I think this is more the second book.
really, I would watch with a 10 year old , I think its a good educational tool sometimes especially for girls.

My grandma says (the late 50's/60's) they mainly kept you in for 10 days to let you recover before you're husbands wanted to have sex again boak why anyone would wanna have sex with a woman who's just have the hoo-haa stretched and still bleeding is beyond me!

ppeatfruit Tue 22-Jan-13 14:27:52

I don't know if I would watch it with a 10 yr old girl (I suppose it depends on the girl) You'd have to explain a lot and it'd probably put her off sex for life !!grin

ShephardsDelight Tue 22-Jan-13 16:31:05

I'd be a bit worried if a 10 year old wouldn't understand most of whats covered in their, soaps imo are worse.

I havent read the books yet, really want to, loving the tv series so am scared theyll put me off the show.

Whats the second and third books called?

hackmum Tue 22-Jan-13 17:37:08

RE contraception - in the books she says that the men refuse to wear condoms, and that when the Pill became widely available the birth rate in the East End dropped dramatically.

BertieBotts Tue 22-Jan-13 19:19:11

Shephard's I would imagine it was because he considered her body his property and hence he could do what he liked with it including selling it sad It probably brought in more money than anything else she could have done, and I doubt he wanted to do any dirty work himself IYSWIM?

Shadows of the Workhouse and Farewell to the East End

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 20:24:32

the episode with the old woman and the workhouse wail sent shivers down my spine

mrsjay Tue 22-Jan-13 20:24:49

The Christmas episode*

ArtexMonkey Tue 22-Jan-13 21:19:16

The woman giving birth with the gas and air had a crucifix above her bed, so presumable she was a catholic. They've just got Dutch caps in boardwalk empire, and that was the 20s.

Davros Tue 22-Jan-13 23:05:40

The first series was more varied. That first episode of the second series was a bit unrelenting with the two main storylines both being about very disturbing abuse of women. I watched the last series with 9 year old DD no problem but thought Sunday's was not suitable

ppeatfruit Wed 23-Jan-13 09:29:13

Yes shepherds I hate most T.V. soaps, its misery all the way; I've stopped watching them. I like Downton and CTM though I suppose because the scripts and actors etc. are so much better.

MarthasHarbour Wed 23-Jan-13 21:18:10

mrsjay have you read the book? the chapters on Mrs Jenkins are harrowing, and had me weeping sad

i recalled that the ships captain was 'using' Kirsten too <boak> in the book, and was glad that they didnt stay too true to the text. but gosh some of those hunky sailors <faints>

Oodsigma Sun 27-Jan-13 20:21:38

Weepy one already tonight sad

Heartbreaking sad

ChristianGreyIsAJackass Sun 27-Jan-13 20:24:16

I just finished talking to my Mum and that happened to her with my sister, we hung up because we were both going to watch it, feel like texting her sad

girliefriend Sun 27-Jan-13 21:01:53

OMG I am an emotional wreck after tonights episode! So sad sad

Love the series though.

diddl Sun 27-Jan-13 21:03:29

Just about sobbed all through that one.

Hope Chummy is back soon!

girliefriend Sun 27-Jan-13 21:08:49

Yes me to, think she is perfect for that character. Shame she is not going to be in it for a few episodes. Am also hoping she does have a baby!!

I have only read the first book, so when does Jenny Lee meet her husband?!

GW297 Sun 27-Jan-13 21:17:13

I love Chummy!

ppeatfruit Mon 28-Jan-13 09:52:32

That was heartbreaking again. sad Book readers; does Chummy return? I hope so, I am like you GW297.

I had a thought about the death of the baby didn't they smack their little bums to make them breathe and cry properly then? The mum said he wasn't crying which should be a danger signal shouldn't it?

Selks Mon 28-Jan-13 09:53:45

Thought it was way too OTT sentimental this time. It felt a bit much and put me off really.

Oodsigma Mon 28-Jan-13 09:54:18

I held it together until the funeral. Then I sobbed. Then they all sang to chummy and I sobbed. Then dh came home. blush

ppeatfruit Mon 28-Jan-13 10:02:32

Me too Oodsigma sad Was Chummy a boyscout leader or something? I couldn't work out why the little boy choir were all in uniform.

BertieBotts Mon 28-Jan-13 10:04:42

Yes she is an Akele I think.

ppeatfruit Mon 28-Jan-13 10:16:29

OOh thanks Bertie I must have missed that bit!

I think it was in the Christmas episode where they were doing the nativity. It was never said directly, I don't think, but she was in uniform and clearly in charge of the cubs!

ppeatfruit Mon 28-Jan-13 11:09:04

I vaguely remember that but it's not easy to sit and watch anything at Christmas! NotADragon So it could easily have happened sentimental or not grin

hackmum Mon 28-Jan-13 13:42:15

Well, that was heart-rending. What happened to jolly Sunday night tv to get you in the mood for the week ahead? The funeral was more than I could bear.

Someone asked about Chummy in the book - my memory is that at the end of the last book Chummy and her husband go to Sierra Leone for good, and they never come back but stay there running a mission and having children of their own.

DD (13) asked me what a missionary was. I was shocked. When I was about 6 I wanted to be a missionary when I grew up.

MarthasHarbour Mon 28-Jan-13 16:00:09

Well i have just wept all the way through that episode. DS is at nursery, want to go and sweep him up in my arms now sad

In the book Chummy goes to Sierra Leone for good. The Jimmy storyline is close though, in the book she says that he 'got a girl into trouble and married her' but she bumps into him some years later and sees him as the henpecked husband, they showed him a bit under the thumb in this episode. I see next week he is in hospital - not sure what that is all about.

I absolutely ADORE Trixie's style!

ppeatfruit Mon 28-Jan-13 16:23:45

hackmum if you watch Mr Selfridge afterwards it cheers you up except for the drunken abusive father storyline (which is only a small part of it grin) most of it is fun.

I asked if Chummy returns so thanks for the information hackmum and MarthasHarbour.Interesting about 'hen pecked' Jimmy I can't work out why she didn't fancy him originally.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 16:32:50

She didn't really fancy him because she was in love with someone else, who, although she doesn't spell it out, was obviously married.

ppeatfruit Mon 28-Jan-13 17:03:42

Oh yes I remember now LaVolcan she has self esteem issues IMO.

LottieJenkins Mon 28-Jan-13 20:35:58

I wish i hadnt watched it now! Too near to the bone for me!! sad

MarthasHarbour Mon 28-Jan-13 21:29:39

She refers to her 'loverrrr' in the book but again only hints at him being married.

lottiejenkins sad <hugs>

hackmum Tue 29-Jan-13 14:21:58

I do wish Jennifer Worth was still alive as there's loads of stuff I'd like to have asked her!

Oodsigma Tue 29-Jan-13 14:26:05

Oh she'd have been a great webchat!

Oodsigma Sun 03-Feb-13 20:07:52

Just read this part in the book this afternoon.

sailorsgal Sun 03-Feb-13 20:14:19

I love those nurses uniforms. grin

PenelopePisstop Sun 03-Feb-13 20:19:02

sailorsgal just come on to say same thing! They are fab aren't they? Glad DP isn't in, he has 'a thing' about nurses which I don't enquiry too deeply about!

PenelopePisstop Sun 03-Feb-13 20:19:32

These two are a bit grim aren't they.

diddl Sun 03-Feb-13 20:25:16

Downright nasty I´d say-the one that threw the delivery pack away, anyway.

I suppose it´s because the mother died having them?

PenelopePisstop Sun 03-Feb-13 20:29:27

Somebody put more than a knife between them, at least once!

PenelopePisstop Sun 03-Feb-13 20:31:26

I think Jenny should steer clear of blokes who's name begins with J, she's not had much luck with Jimmy and Jerrold :-) .

Maybe the doctor?

PenelopePisstop Sun 03-Feb-13 20:37:45


diddl Sun 03-Feb-13 20:45:34

Dr seems too old-especially compared to Jimmy!

He´s so young looking it´s hard to take him seriously as anyone´s "love interest"

I read somewhere that IRL the actress who plays Jenny is with this guy

Ooh diddl he's hot. You cheered me up a tad wink

PenelopePisstop Sun 03-Feb-13 20:49:44

God I can't watch!

GeorginaWorsley Sun 03-Feb-13 20:58:07

Nun and dr love each other imo....

Yes,*Georgina*, I think so too. Just read an interview with the actress who plays Sister Bernadette and she speaks of a big storyline/event.....

pirouette Sun 03-Feb-13 21:35:22

I didn't cry this week! Well, only a bit when the twins held the babies.

Yes, I think the nun and dr love each other. They shared a fag and everything. There were lingering

The nun sewed the button back on the Drs coat a week or so back.

Button sewing proves it - it's luff smile

Pixel Mon 04-Feb-13 00:23:01

The plotline was a bit too predictable. Guessed early on about twins and surgeon's parkinsons. Ah well, my fault for watching years of Casualty!
Still enjoyed it a lot though.
At least they use tiny babies that actually look newborn, unlike some other progs/films. When I went to see Nativity 2 before Christmas and they had the birth scene at the end, I heard several people around me whisper loudly "That's at least five months old".grin

Am I the only stroppy person who wouldn't have bought the avocados after being so rudely mocked?

Pixel Mon 04-Feb-13 00:26:59

Am now waiting for the opportunity to say "you needn't look so askance" to dd. Probably next time I dare to ask her to do something helpful wink.

Porkster Mon 04-Feb-13 00:31:52

I SO want the dowdy nun to toss her mantle aside and run off into the sunset with the doctor.

Oodsigma Mon 04-Feb-13 08:58:29

Having just read the books I can see a bit of what's coming now . Usually this backfires but in this case I'm getting less stressed!

hackmum Mon 04-Feb-13 09:29:55

Nobody died in this episode, so that's surely cause for celebration.

I do so hope the nun and the doctor get it together.

AmberLeaf Mon 04-Feb-13 11:39:23

Ive not read the whole thread as I want to avoid spoilers.

Is this available on Iplayer? Ive just looked for it and cant find it on there.

I saw only the christmas one so have a few to catch up on.

Is there a link on the thread to it on Iplayer?

eminemmerdale Mon 04-Feb-13 11:58:21

were the twins played by one actress? I forgot to look at the credits.

I thought that they were twins as they were seen together... however, I"ve just checked the Radio Times and they were both played by Monica Dolan apparently!

eminemmerdale Mon 04-Feb-13 12:30:01

clever editing - I thought thatit was one actress, as when they were holding hands, you didn;t see both their faces together!

I thought they came in together at the end though. Didn't they? Originally I thought they were one actress and then I decided they had to be two. It was very well done.

diddl Mon 04-Feb-13 13:46:32
zukiecat Mon 04-Feb-13 15:02:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

atthewelles Mon 04-Feb-13 16:07:26

I think that was the happiest episode of the second series to date.

In real life Jennifer Worth lost contact with Jimmy before he ever got married or engaged. The first and only time she met his wife was when she bumped into him years later (in the 70s or 80s I think) in a shopping centre or DIY store looking very hen pecked by a very bossy looking woman. So obviously the current story is loosely based on her recollection of that encounter but 99% made up.

I like the way they're spreading the story lines around all of the characters this time. Jenny is interesting but so are Trixie and Cynthia. The storyline with the nun and the doctor is also very interesting. They have always given the impression that Sr Bernadette is a bit envious of the other nurses and their freedom to go dancing, meet men etc so it will be interesting to see how they play this one out.

LaVolcan Mon 04-Feb-13 16:46:29

I was having trouble identifying the surgeon but he looked very familiar - then it came to me - it's Strickland from New Tricks.

MamaMary Mon 04-Feb-13 16:57:23

Hello all - just wanted to join in, have lurked on the thread a bit. I've just watched yesterday's episode on Iplayer and I had a good chuckle when the porter was showing the new orderly to Chummy's old room and kept saying things like 'It'll be hard to fill her shoes...She was head and shoulders above the rest of them...we all looked up to her" grin

Is it just me or is the actress who plays Jenny a bit wooden/ one-dimensional?

JakeBullet Mon 04-Feb-13 17:06:28

Monica Dolan who played the twins won a Bafta for her portrayal of Rose West in Appropriate Adult.

Am loving this series as I used to be a midwife and it's been done so well. Have some old midwifery texts thst advised delivery on the side.....and if you are on a bed it is far far better than being on your back as the pelvis has much more leeway. These old midwives knew a thing or two.

JakeBullet Mon 04-Feb-13 17:08:30

Hi Mama....yes agree with you yhere. Think it might be the part itself. She is apparently going to be in an upcoming episode of Dr Who so it will be interesting to see what she's like in that.

Shesparkles Mon 04-Feb-13 17:11:53

I'm loving this series. I read the books in the summer and I'm recognising the storylines so easily, but not in a bad way.

The problem is that I watched it in bed on I player and then spent the night dreing I was in labour!

LaVolcan Mon 04-Feb-13 17:18:51

Is it just me or is the actress who plays Jenny a bit wooden/ one-dimensional?

If it's true to the book, there is a reason for her being one-dimensional. I am looking forward to seeing how that story develops.

MarthasHarbour Mon 04-Feb-13 21:58:20

Did anyone recognise the Jane Sutton character? In the book she is a cleaner not a nurse orderly, I suspect we get her back-story next week, it is very sad in the book <avoiding spoilers>

MarthasHarbour Mon 04-Feb-13 22:00:44

volcan I don't recall anything other than her affair.... What other reason was there for her being one dimensional? Feel free to pm me if you don't want to spoil, I have read all 3 books smile

LaVolcan Mon 04-Feb-13 23:02:53

Without putting in any spoilers - isn't her sad story the reason why the character is being played as very one dimensional?

MarthasHarbour Tue 05-Feb-13 08:31:58

volcan are you talking about Jenny or Jane? If it is Jane (the new girl) then yes i can see what you mean about the reason for her quiet demeanour. sad

it all perks up next week though - i saw on the trailer that funny vicar makes an appearance grin

STILL loving Trixie!

MarthasHarbour Tue 05-Feb-13 08:32:54

oh and i didnt catch the credits - who was that uber famous woman who played Matron - i know i am going to kick myself when you tell me as she has been in everything! i kept thinking Samantha Bond but it is not her...?

XBenedict Tue 05-Feb-13 08:37:13

My husband went to school with Monica Dolan and so for the first time ever he watched CTM with me and quite enjoyed it.

"Am I the only stroppy person who wouldn't have bought the avocados after being so rudely mocked?"

No you're not I would have walked off!

Oodsigma Tue 05-Feb-13 08:49:22

That guy who plays the vicar was a creepy policeman in Being Human. Not sure ill take him seriously as a vicar.

Saltire Tue 05-Feb-13 08:54:58

Was Monica Dolan in an episode of Poirot? I watched on recently, "After the Funeral, and I am sure she was in it playing the role of Cora Abernethie and that of her housekeeper.

Saltire Tue 05-Feb-13 08:55:48

the Poirot episode was called After the Funeral, not that I watched it after a funeral!

The Matron was played by Lucy Robinson

diddl Tue 05-Feb-13 10:14:02

Anyone else remember "Murder At the Gallp?

Margaret Rutherford as Miss Marple & Flora Robson as Cora/Miss Gilcrest(?)?

MarthasHarbour Tue 05-Feb-13 10:23:36

why OF COURSE MrsDragon she was Mrs Hurst in Pride and Prejudice - amongst many other things but that is where i recognised her from grin

you are right about Monica Dolan in Poirot and millions of other things saltire

LaVolcan Tue 05-Feb-13 12:20:38

If it is Jane (the new girl) then yes i can see what you mean about the reason for her quiet demeanour.

Sorry, got a bit confused - I meant Jane. I would agree Jenny is a bit wooden. My impression from the book was that midwifery wasn't a real vocation, whereas for the others it was, and being rather well to do but thrust into the East End, to me would explain why she is a bit reserved.

NutellaNutter Tue 05-Feb-13 12:29:37

Marking my place on this thread. I LOVE this series.

Pixel Tue 05-Feb-13 20:16:14

I'm betting that after the wedding it turns out that Jimmy's new wife isn't pregnant at all, so they'll have done the 'decent thing' for nothing.

diddl Wed 06-Feb-13 07:01:16

I thought that Jenny had examined her, though?

diddl Wed 06-Feb-13 07:31:20

Also, why was the Dr there when Maeve(?)/Mavis(?) was giving birth?

Was it because she was older?

I think so, yes. They wanted her at the maternity home.

Maybe also because of her nutty sister and the fact she'd had no antenatal care.

It was Mave BTW. I thought it was Maeve throughout the programme, only found out it was Mave when googling to see if it was two actresses or one! I guess it was short for Mavis. smile

diddl Wed 06-Feb-13 07:51:51

Yes, I thought Maeve & thought I also heard Mavis.

So I guess yes, Mave short for Mavis.

I had a feeling that homebirths were getting quite rare by 1959?

I guess it depended on where you lived.

Also the clinic in a local hall-would that really still have been happening?

AmberLeaf Wed 06-Feb-13 10:12:18

Ive watched them over the last couple of days.

I too am wondering if Jimmys wife is really pregnant.

MOf my brothers, the eldest was born in 1962 in a "cottage hospital" and the second at home in 1965 - routinely I think. I was born in hospital simply because I had to be induced early.

pressed send too early smile I wonder if home birth was phased out for first births.

diddl Wed 06-Feb-13 10:25:53

could be.

My sibling (PFB) was born in hospital and I was also due to mum having toxemia-as it was called then.

My husband(PFB) was born at the "cottage hospital"(same town) due to his mum being fine & having had no complications during pregnancy.

AmberLeaf Wed 06-Feb-13 10:31:22

My brother was born at home in 1969, I would have been [in the 70s] but because my brother was so large and they were expecting me to be larger [I wasnt!] My mum had to go into hospital to have me.

My Mum said home birth was still considered the norm then.

eminemmerdale Wed 06-Feb-13 10:57:17

My sister who wasa born in the mid fifties was born in hospital - a maternity unit run by nuns apparntly, which my mum says was awful - but I was then born at home in the early sixties, so it clearly changed in those few years for a while.

LaVolcan Wed 06-Feb-13 14:37:44

I thought the big push towards hospital birth came during the sixties, but even before then, I think first timers were being encouraged to go to hospital. Having said that MIL had great difficulty getting a hospital birth for her third in 1959.

BertieBotts Thu 07-Feb-13 22:24:57

My grandmother had three babies in hospital in the 1950s. She lived in Rugby, so not a big city - perhaps this made a difference?

Oodsigma Fri 08-Feb-13 04:43:29

I think it was a poverty/ tradition thing in the EE. My mum was born in 51 by c-section so obviously a hospital birth. There's a lot of ref in the books to their ways being old fashioned

BartletForTeamGB Fri 08-Feb-13 10:45:49
ErikNorseman Fri 08-Feb-13 20:57:39

Why do you think the twins wore headscarves when out?

BertieBotts Fri 08-Feb-13 22:06:08

To keep warm? I suppose it was fashionable then.

Oodsigma Fri 08-Feb-13 22:24:29

I thought it was a fashion thing. Certainly women from that era wore them as old ladies. Plus was cold on the market

LaVolcan Fri 08-Feb-13 23:01:10

The Queen was born by c-section - at home!

How reliable is this information? It seems extremely unlikely. There's no mention of Princess Margaret being born by CS which you would have expected to be the case in those days.

BartletForTeamGB Sat 09-Feb-13 07:50:00

It is true and well known. There are lots and lots of references to that fact! Amazing, isn't it!

As for Princess Margaret, she was also born by C section apparently at Glamis Castle. There are a few references for that although I can't find anything very reliable to link to.

I'm all for home births, but perhaps not home C sections... smile

It's not well known - at least I had absolutely no idea! A home C-section! Amazing! Can you imagine asking for one now?

LottieJenkins Sat 09-Feb-13 08:27:36

When i was born in 1969 My Mum was 33 and considered an "older mother" even so they wanted Mum to have a home birth. At the time Mum and Dad were 45 minutes from the hospital and Dad wasnt happy with a home birth so he booked my Mum into a private hospital which wasnt really geared up to cope with children. I kept making a lot of noise so was apparently put in the laundry cupboard! shock grin

ppeatfruit Sat 09-Feb-13 17:47:37

Well NotADragon the 'home' of the royals isn't much like most people's is it? They could easily have scrubbed up one of the hundreds of unused rooms and used that!

Lottie I was born in a normal maternity wing of a hospital in 1951 and was also put in an airing cupboard for crying too much !! (I was being BF and maybe they were used to FF babies who were full up and didn't cry so much!)

HeavenlyAmy Sun 10-Feb-13 20:21:44

What's wrong with baby?

He has spina bifida heavenly

PenelopePisstop Sun 10-Feb-13 20:59:38

That was quite hard to watch.

OddBoots Sun 10-Feb-13 21:00:54

Amazing how some things have got so much better and some have not. There is so much hope for the future for spinal repair with stem cells.

BOF Sun 10-Feb-13 21:01:39

It was. Nice ending though.

Oodsigma Sun 10-Feb-13 21:03:44

Very interesting episode. The line about the biscuit factory was spot on. Dh came in just before that and was hooked in straight away. Sister Monica Joan's views showed how much the views/treatment changed. The idea of killing a baby is unbearable yet they thought it was best.

pirouette Sun 10-Feb-13 21:09:40

"There is a biscuit factory next door. We get the broken ones"......<sobbing my heart out>

Very hard to watch. I let 5 month old DD stay up and let her co sleep tonight. Needed a cuddle with her, sobbed like a baby at that episode.
The reviews about this series were spot on! A lot grittier.

girliefriend Sun 10-Feb-13 21:27:31

I cried at the bit as well pirouette!! Really hit the mark, seems unthinkable that it was seen as such a tragedy to have a disabled child and that the 'best' thing to do would be put them in a home sad Glad the mum came round in the end (I thought she would!)

Also loved that Jane found her perfect man!!

Loving this series smile

The broken biscuit line really floored me. There are many many people with disabilities that still get the broken biscuits in our society.

My parents were advised to leave my brother at the hospital, go home and forget about him and have more children. This was in 1964. So the attitudes of the more enlightened characters on tonight's show were certainly not the norm I don't think.

PenelopePisstop Sun 10-Feb-13 22:02:08

The broken biscuit was bloody heartbreaking.

Adversecamber Sun 10-Feb-13 22:36:07

I know that my grandmother had a fourth dc a boy that was allowed to slip away, he was disabled but not sure how. My Mum told me the midwife apparently laid him under the bed and didn't clear his airways, this would have been in the early 1930's.

WipsGlitter Sun 10-Feb-13 22:40:13

People still think having a child with special needs is the end of the world, sadly. You only have to read some of the threads on here about people terminating pregnancies for 'medical reasons'.

nellyjelly Mon 11-Feb-13 08:32:41

Wisp. There is some truth in what you are saying unfortunately.

The broken biscuit made me well up instantly. Very clever writing just there I thought.

You know Jane- I understood that she had a nervous disposition and was scared a lot - what would her condition be if you had to label it?

FrillyMilly Mon 11-Feb-13 09:14:49

I bawled at that episode. So sad to think of children locked away for their whole lives.

I don't think Jane had a condition as such but was more a product of her environment.

mindosa Mon 11-Feb-13 09:49:54

Hmm I thought she was overly anxious. She refers to her parents sending her away because she used to sit up in bed and scream all the time

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 09:52:20

Perhaps she has autism or something like that?

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 09:52:29


BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 09:53:21

I thought she was the girl in the book who had grown up in a workhouse and suffered horrendous abuse... perhaps not, or did they change her storyline?

AmberLeaf Mon 11-Feb-13 10:09:42

Bertie, no that wasn't her.

That one was shown in the first series I think?

The girl who'd been separated from her brother when they went into the workhouse, then he came and got her when he was old enough, then they lived as man and wife? if thats the one you mean?

I cant remember her name, but she was a cleaner in Nonnatus house.

mrsjay Mon 11-Feb-13 10:19:21

oh I bawled last night it was so sad I have the same condition as the baby so I found the attitudes shocking but it happened sad, I dont think jane had a condition as such she was maybe over anxious and shy as a child and her parents couldnt cope jane looks like she is maybe in her 40s so maybe put into the institution/home in the 1930 because her parents couldnt cope with her nervous ways, and then became institutionalised, and I so wanted her to go with the vicar I was desperate for her to go with him to his new parish

ppeatfruit Mon 11-Feb-13 10:38:41

mrsjay At least there was a happy ending about the baby. Maybe Jane has the 'over sensitive' condition I can't remember the correct name but it would definitely not have been recognised then.

I found out that CTM is repeated at 1p.m. yesterday which is good because I missed last week's. Someone upthread mentioned the headscarves worn by ALL the weird twins, IMO they were in a religious sect ( like the Amish). Was it mentioned at the beginning of the programme?

Mamf74 Mon 11-Feb-13 10:40:30

Could someone let me know how last night's ended please? DH came home and so I saw the screen but missed the dialogue!

Please tell me Jane ended up with the Vicar!

Nothing was shown but she clearly got a kiss from him as the goldfish was named after him smile She ran after him to explain how she is afraid of everything.

ppeatfruit Mon 11-Feb-13 10:58:41

Yes it was sweet mamf74 because they each explained to the other why the vicar talked too much and Jane didn't talk enough. There was no finality though.

Oodsigma Mon 11-Feb-13 10:58:57

In the book Jane is from the workhouse with the girl & her brother. Then she meets the vicar.

Mamf74 Mon 11-Feb-13 11:07:47

Oh, that's lovely. So pleased they spoke to each other before he left. This episode seemed much less sentimental than the others, which made it more affecting.

Thanks for the updates!

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 11:11:57

No not the lady with the brother. In the second book there was a girl called Jane (I think) who was awfully treated in the workhouse, there was a description of a beating so bad that she passed out sad and she was vv nervous as an adult. I didn't remember the vicar at all though, perhaps I ought to re-read, but that middle book was very upsetting.

ShowOfHands Mon 11-Feb-13 11:17:12

I watched last night in tears.

My great grandmother was advised to put her newborn baby who had Down's in a home and forget him. This was in 1930. She was a midwife too and told them to nob off. He lived with her until she died age 93 and died himself over a decade later, in his early 60s. He had a brilliant life and spent the final years of his life with his brother and SIL, my grandparents. I have fond memories of him.

My aunt was brain damaged at birth in 1950 by gross incompetence on the part of the doctor. My Grandma got the same advice and similarly, refused to leave her dd behind. She lived at home with my Grandma (and for the last years of his life, my uncle with DS) until 3 years ago when it became clear that she was unable to care for her any longer and she lives very happily now in her own home with full time carers and 3 housemates with similar levels of need.

My mother was a neonatal nurse until the mid 70s when she gave it up to have my brother. She told me once that if a baby was severely disabled, there were instances where they just didn't feed them. They were given oxygen and basic life support but no food. I was utterly horrified. So was she and she never went back to neonatal nursing.

piprabbit Mon 11-Feb-13 11:23:22

I think it was rather lovely that they didn't show Jane and the vicar kissing, just mentioning that the goldfish was now named after the vicar (who presumably qualifies as Jane's first kiss).

I do like Jason Watkins, but he really has been everywhere over the last couple of years.

Mamf74 Mon 11-Feb-13 11:33:24

I like Jason Atkins too but he will always be Herrick the vampire from Being Human to me, always expect his appearances on other programmes to end in a bloody, gory mess!

Mamf74 Mon 11-Feb-13 11:33:54

Watkins, bloody predictive text!

I was delighted that the goldfish got named smile

It looks like the Drab Young Nun is getting closer to the doctor too.

Oodsigma Mon 11-Feb-13 11:45:15

Me too mamof74

mrsjay Mon 11-Feb-13 12:59:54

mrsjay At least there was a happy ending about the baby. Maybe Jane has the 'over sensitive' condition I can't remember the correct name but it would definitely not have been recognised then.

yes it was a happy ending ,

I dont think the twins sect was mentioned I wonder if it was so old worlde type religion because they were into herbs and stuff.

mrsjay Mon 11-Feb-13 13:28:04

e told me once that if a baby was severely disabled, there were instances where they just didn't feed them. They were given oxygen and basic life support but no food. I was utterly horrified. So was she and she never went back to neonatal nursing.

My mum was offered this sort of 'care' for me it was an option ,

ErikNorseman Mon 11-Feb-13 18:59:29

Jane grew up in the workhouse alongside Peggy and frank, in the book anyway

Fairylea Mon 11-Feb-13 19:06:07

The broken biscuit line was fantastic.

No child should ever be made to feel they are only worth the broken biscuits.

ErikNorseman Mon 11-Feb-13 19:29:52

Oh my goodness sad 'we get the broken ones' <sob>

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 11-Feb-13 19:34:53

My dad's eldest child, a girl, died aged 2 days in 1956.
She was born with Spina Bifida. I only found out about her when looking at family history records.

MarthasHarbour Mon 11-Feb-13 22:10:47

Bertie you are right, Jane suffered horrendous abuse in the workhouse along with Peggy and Frank, they have changed the storyline significantly, prob to avoid repetition (even though it was true). In the book Jane married the reverend and moved to sierra Leone.

I sobbed at broken biscuits too sad

Clawdy Mon 11-Feb-13 22:51:28

I'm reading the book now,and can't understand why Cynthia in the book is described as the one with the "sexy voice" who has Jimmy and his mate blushing and entranced when they have tea at the convent. In the tv version Trixie is the glamorous one?

ErikNorseman Tue 12-Feb-13 07:03:36

In the book Cynthia was sweet and plain with a sexy deep voice, and trixie was the flirty minx, fairly accurately depicted I think, minus the sexy voice which is a bit of a random casting requirement.

Clawdy Tue 12-Feb-13 10:23:56

Must have misread that one,can't remember Trixie described so clearly. Just about to start "Shadows of the Workhouse" though.

Indith Tue 12-Feb-13 16:16:55

I recorded it so I've caught up now.

Last night was very sad. It has been a little while now since I read the books, I end up sobbing at the TV then remember that it has been softened for TV and the books are far more brutal.

I love the way the books are written though and that they have very much kept that tone with the voice over. You can tell that Jennifer Worth herself recognises that she was young and naive and at times uncomfortable with the situations and the poverty she found herself in. She sounds like she was a very wise woman once she had finished growing up.

Last night made me wonder how I will react when faced with difficulties. how will I be able to give mothers bad news? I'll find out soon.

Oodsigma Sun 17-Feb-13 20:15:52

Who is it that's playing the father in tonight's? Driving me mad trying to place him

rhondajean Sun 17-Feb-13 20:47:05

This is such a sad episode. Dd1 despairs of me, I have spent most of this series in tears one way or another.

sailorsgal Sun 17-Feb-13 20:47:23

OMG that poor woman. sad

SirBoobAlot Sun 17-Feb-13 20:48:25

Bloody hell, hardcore tonight.

Making me feel really shaky. She's going to die isn't she?

I can't watch tonights sad

Sheila Sun 17-Feb-13 20:49:54

Had to turn over - couldn't bear to watch.

ErikNorseman Sun 17-Feb-13 20:50:47

This won't end well sad

Sheila Sun 17-Feb-13 20:50:50

Hope Nadine Dorries is watching.

MadCap Sun 17-Feb-13 20:51:30

Brave episode.

Oodsigma Sun 17-Feb-13 20:51:57

Particularly bad tonight. I've read this in the book but its worse seeing it.

Whyriskit Sun 17-Feb-13 20:53:34

Can you imagine what it must have been like to have so little control of your fertility? And so recently too.
My mum went on the pill in the late 60's and she told me what a revelation it was for women.

JambalayaCodfishPie Sun 17-Feb-13 20:54:56

Oh gosh, very upsetting.

This whole series has been upsetting though.

MadCap Sun 17-Feb-13 20:55:32

Yy Sheila and the right wing nutjobs in America.

scarlettsmummy2 Sun 17-Feb-13 20:55:46

I have found this series to be so grim. It used to be feel good tv, now it's depressing.

Oodsigma Sun 17-Feb-13 20:56:45

I've never seen it as feel good but I can't describe what I see it as. It's certainly enlightening and gripping.

ErikNorseman Sun 17-Feb-13 20:57:13

It's not meant to be feel good tv though. The subject matter isn't feel good.

peggyblackett Sun 17-Feb-13 20:59:39

On my goodness that was so sad.

Oodsigma Sun 17-Feb-13 20:59:57

sad at the saying goodbye but phew!

Also cried at Sister Monica Joan!

I have never really understood so clearly before why I should (and am) so very grateful for contraception.

It makes you realise how bloody lucky we are now.

Sheila Sun 17-Feb-13 21:00:12

I think it's very important to be reminded of how awful it was before contraception and abortion were available, and what lengths desperate women will go to end an unwanted pregnancy.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 17-Feb-13 21:02:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

carbondated Sun 17-Feb-13 21:02:58

God that was a tough one! I think I'm being a bit thick but did Nora survive and come out of the coma or do I have that wrong? I don't think they can make it feelgood easily if it's based on the writer's true experiences. I think they have tried to do some toning down of things from what I've read on here though ie the captain's daughter on the ship episode was a better outcome then in the book.

ErikNorseman Sun 17-Feb-13 21:04:50

I don't think we know about Nora yet do we?

ErikNorseman Sun 17-Feb-13 21:05:57

Oh god I've just realised I'm a few minutes behind you all because I paused it. Thank goodness Nora recovered.

PenelopePisstop Sun 17-Feb-13 21:11:57

It's hard too believe that this is in my mothers life time and not to far off mine, as I was born in the 60's.

Thank God Nora survived, I could hardly watch.

GeorginaWorsley Sun 17-Feb-13 21:32:22

I want nun and dr to end up together!
Agree awful back street abortions. We can never go back to that.

Pixel Sun 17-Feb-13 23:52:31

Very harrowing episode, but well acted. I was born in the sixties too but my mum had the coil as family history of heart disease meant she couldn't have the pill. I was wondering, when did people start being able to use 'rubber johnnies'? Was that after the fifties? I had the idea that they were around during the war but not sure where I got that from.

Still, couldn't help being a bit hmm that a woman could have eight children and not own a pair of knitting needles or a crochet hook!

Oodsigma Mon 18-Feb-13 06:55:26

They had condoms in an episode the other week. The girl on the boat said she used them

Condoms were around during the war. I'm not sure when they started being disposable though!

OddBoots Mon 18-Feb-13 08:19:31

I think it was cost that stopped her using condoms, hence the bit about the referral to family planning not being on the NHS.

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 08:46:14

How harrowing was last nights very powerful I was sobbing that poor woman so desperate sad and then the sister in turmoil over the dishy doctor then the baby comp and poor trixie It was quite a hard watch tbh,

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 08:49:56

I think it was cost that stopped her using condoms, hence the bit about the referral to family planning not being on the NHS.

yes you are right they couldn't afford to feed their kids never mind buying condoms when did contraceptive become free ? I also noticed noras 'better days' curtains had been sold to the nuns for the costumes <sob>

Yes, I thought it was the cost of condoms that prevented them using them.

hackmum Mon 18-Feb-13 09:05:28

I thought it was a shame in last night's episode that after such a powerful story (particularly the bit where they actually carried out the illegal abortion) they then tacked on a happy ending with the whole family roaming the fields of Harlow, Sound of Music style.

In the book, iirc, the early abortion doesn't work (which was the same as in last night's episode) but rather than have a late abortion, the couple just kill the baby after it's born.

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 09:07:25

oh god hackmum shock I think that would have been far to much for sunday night telly I think people want a happyish ending ,

Oodsigma Mon 18-Feb-13 09:21:08

I didn't notice the curtain bit.

The worst thing with the family was that they obviously loved their kids but couldn't afford another and that made then desperate rather than 'just' not wanting one. The bit where she said about avoiding him too.

Clawdy Mon 18-Feb-13 10:36:28

I once asked my mum how it was she and quite a few of her friends only had two kids when there was no contraceptive pill. She said "We used the withdrawal didn't like it but it usually worked..."

LIZS Mon 18-Feb-13 10:42:54

Had to flick over to DOI results when dd came in the room last night . Not sure it was really appropriate pre watershed. Harrowing sad

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 10:53:53

Im not sure about the prewatershed viewing either LIZS but my youngest dd is 15 so I dont mind her watching it is a bit much especially last nights I thought it was a bit graphic

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 10:54:15

infct really graphic*

alemci Mon 18-Feb-13 11:08:55

yes I thought it was a bit graphic before 9 o'clock. could they have not had the baby adopted after the birth rather than killing it as in the book.

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 11:19:57

I just think she was desperate and id imagine adoption was frowned on the poor woman just didnt want to be pregnant anymore, I dont have a problem with them letting us know she was going to an abortionist I just thought they lingered on the scenes too long , especially for 8pm at night I didnt know they had killed the baby in the book, My dds are really enjoying watching it and we talk about 'stuff' but I do think younger children are still up and about at 8pm

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 18-Feb-13 17:57:40

I think it should have been after 9 o'clock really, when they were showing it so graphically.

However, just in terms of the filming, I thought the way they cut between the abortion and Trixie doing her nails was very clever. It made it very hard to watch.

Also, on a more cheerful note, isn't the music lovely? That's one of the things I most enjoy about it.

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 17:59:19

I agree with you the scene was powerful wasn't it.

apparently sister bernadette well the actress sings some of the songs

YouBrokeMySmoulder Mon 18-Feb-13 18:01:26

But the continuity announcer did make it very clear what the content was going to be and after that then it is upto parents isnt it?

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 18:06:35

you broke my shoulder I suppose you are right and yes it is but I think parents gauge programmes as pre and post watershed as I said before my youngest is 15 so I have no issues with her watching

I don't think it needed to be post watershed. It was cut very cleverly.

OddBoots Mon 18-Feb-13 18:26:00

I don't think the watershed means much, there is some fab family viewing after 9pm (Wonders of Life, Genius of Invention, Howard Goodall's Story of Music etc) and violent and antisocial viewing earlier in the evening (most soaps esp EastEnders).

LIZS Mon 18-Feb-13 18:29:26

Ah , would have missed the announcer. We don't normally watch it but saw the Christmas one and have caught snatches a few times since.

mrsjay Mon 18-Feb-13 18:32:32

I suppose they have wife beating husband beating baby swaps babies dying etc etc in the soaps yet they put a penguin programme on last week at 9pm confused

FWIW i thought the cut away scene between trixie and the abortion was very well done , all in all its a great series

hackmum Mon 18-Feb-13 19:15:04

Mrsjay: "I think that would have been far to much for sunday night telly I think people want a happyish ending ,"

Yes, I think killing the baby might have been a bit much! I think I'd have preferred not to have them wandering the fields though. It was too corny for words.

Pixel Mon 18-Feb-13 19:40:35

Must admit, I did think "Sound of Music" at the end (lots of nuns in that too!).

I appreciate that the people were skint and work was scarce but you'd have thought contraception would have been a higher priority for anyone who could stretch to it. It must have been much cheaper than paying for an extra mouth to feed or a dodgy abortion, and a lot less dangerous. I wasn't sure if perhaps some of them avoided for religious reasons? Are the nuns meant to be catholic? (genuinely not sure, not an expert on nuns! wink.)

Bilbobagginstummy Mon 18-Feb-13 21:24:10

The nuns in this are anglican nuns.

Last night's episode was so distressing. The argument for safe, legal abortion graphically laid out. sad

PolkadotsAndMoonbeams Mon 18-Feb-13 22:37:44

She says in the book that most men completely refused to wear a sheath. There was a shocking statistic as well about how the number of births changed when the pill became available. I don't have my copy to hand, but think it was from something like fifty deliveries a month to five or six. Can anybody check?

BertieBotts Mon 18-Feb-13 23:08:24

I think the condoms weren't very nice as well as the cost aspect, and perhaps not all that reliable either (well, more reliable than chance you'd hope.)

Oodsigma Mon 18-Feb-13 23:28:23

polka those numbers sound right to ms

Oodsigma Mon 18-Feb-13 23:28:34

polka those numbers sound right to ms

Pixel Tue 19-Feb-13 00:28:24

Ah right, thanks. I guess if they really were rubber they would have been pretty horrible. Men can be very selfish though can't they.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Tue 19-Feb-13 00:40:24

If you've read the books ,iirc the old soldier from the first series specifically mentions using sheaths to save his wife from falling pregnant. The books are wonderful, after reading them I find the new series a bit cheesey, and lots of stuff added in that changes the feel of the story.

hackmum Tue 19-Feb-13 08:18:35

Well, surprise, surprise, Sunday's episode has made the Daily Mail:

And someone's been reading this thread (but they can't spell Mumsnet):

"On Mums Net, one user wrote: ‘Had to walk out of the room during illegal abortion scene’, while another added: ‘Very uncomfortable viewing.’"

youfhearted Tue 19-Feb-13 08:40:35

just caught up on two episodes last night and one the night before, feel absolutely wrung out.
and the books are worse? shock
i did go off it after the xmas speical wehich I found too cheesey. or pehrpas it was because I watched it with DH.
better to watch alone and sob

Throughout the 1950's the Sisters had delivered around 100 babies per month. In the year 1964 that number had dropped to four or five.

mrsjay Tue 19-Feb-13 08:50:53

PIXEL I don't think it was a case of people being skint they were in poverty but even back then which really wasn't that long ago people were expected to have babies it was a part of marriage IYSWIM, but then they did go to back street abortionists so they were contradicting themselves but id imagine contraception wasn't at the top of the priorities, big families were not unusual my own mum is 1 of 8

mrsjay Tue 19-Feb-13 08:52:21

On Mums Net, one user wrote: ‘Had to walk out of the room during illegal abortion scene’, while another added: ‘Very uncomfortable viewing.’"

shock I didnt say that but im fuming that they use us for their paper why isn't mumsnet private why are they using our words , >>off to check t n cs angry

It's an open forum, they can take what they like. There was a huge kick off about this a few years back.

mrsjay Tue 19-Feb-13 08:59:16

how irritating although I have seen discussion programmes the wright stuff using topics , bloody lazy and annoying.

No one on this thread said those quotes in the DM. Is there another thread?

LIZS Tue 19-Feb-13 09:17:04

Probably Net huns mums and DM got confused !

mrsjay Tue 19-Feb-13 09:19:00

No one on this thread said those quotes in the DM. Is there another thread?

maybe changed the wordings

changed the wording

So you mean "made it up? grin

it was Net Huns

Daily Fail fails again grin

mrsjay Tue 19-Feb-13 09:24:21

So you mean "made it up?

aye grin

mrsjay Tue 19-Feb-13 09:25:57

ah It was there word for word oh well still annoying though and bloody lazy of the DM

hackmum Tue 19-Feb-13 09:29:09

So not only did they spell Mumsnet wrongly, it wasn't even Mumsnet that they meant. Oh dear. Given that all they're doing is copying and pasting, you wouldn't think it was that difficult!

JambalayaCodfishPie Tue 19-Feb-13 09:30:16

Just reading that thread, I saw an emoticon flicking the middle finger.

Looked again, its a naughty finger wiggle. And she's talking about her DP.

Oodsigma Tue 19-Feb-13 10:10:43

It's the first time I've commented on the Daily Mail site blush dh told me to so I'd stop ranting at him. Why aren't they objecting to the wife beating/prostituting episodes?

Oodsigma Tue 19-Feb-13 10:15:06

The Nethuns thread is similar to ours really feel bad I doubted them so can't see how the DM saw them as seeing it as a bad thing. Shouldn't be surprised at the DM twisting it though.angry

I thought the trixie/Nora abortion scene was played so well. It almost made it more painful to watch.
We are so lucky to have so many options of contraception now.
This story was very true to the book I thought - I remember a different couple killing the baby after birth?

ppeatfruit Tue 19-Feb-13 12:31:57

Blimey drama on the CTM screen and on here shock grin What surprises me about the DM and some other 'newspapers' is that anyone believes what they say at all!!!

(I've had the flu so not been on many threads) I cried my way through the last one, agree the scene with Tilly doing her nails and the abortion was brilliantly done. Anyone remember our conversation about contraception a few pages ago? Because IMO a lot of maybe UWC had far fewer DCs after the war than before it yes as someone said upthread maybe they used the withdrawal method. (possibly backed up by backstreet abortions who knows?).

ErikNorseman Tue 19-Feb-13 13:37:22

I'm reading the third book currently. I was in tears yesterday at the description of surgical rape of a 13 year old. It really is harrowing. I'm about to start the chapter about the family in the abortion storyline and I'm not sure I can take it.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Tue 19-Feb-13 18:59:38

The books are a bit of an insight into what life was like for vast numbers of people before we had contraception, a welfare system and a NHS.

Been a while since I read them but isn't there something about the family from the last episode being left in the tenement slums rather than moved to a new council house that was deemed too small for them but still better than their current situation?

mayhew Tue 19-Feb-13 21:26:09

I don't think the NHS did contraception until the 1970s. It had a stigma of not being a nice topic or medically necessary. Condoms were seen primarily as a way for men to avoid STIs. Therefore they were stigmatised in marriage, and expensive. Thats why the Family Planning Association was founded, to make contraception available, to married women (!).

In 1963, after 2 unplanned pregnancies, in marriage, my mum heard about the pill. She had to go 70 miles to see a private gynae to get a prescription. She stayed on it for 20 years!

Clawdy Tue 19-Feb-13 22:27:04

Most of the books are set in the 1950s,some time after the birth of the NHS in 1948. Contraception was made available on the NHS in 1961,although some doctors were reluctant to prescribe it at first.

IrnBruTheNoo Wed 20-Feb-13 14:02:09

I did feel slightly sorry for Nora having to go through it all again for the ninth time! Thank goodness contraception is openly acceptable nowadays, and it's free.

BertieBotts Wed 20-Feb-13 20:38:58

Fries yes and this was kept in the programme too - she mentions a shared toilet on the landing but then jokes that it's all theirs anyway because everyone else has left, and when Jenny asks why everyone else has been moved on but not her she explains that the council deems them to need a 4-bed house, which they don't have any of. So despite the fact that a 2 or 3 bedroom flat would be much better than their current living conditions, they don't get moved on. I can't remember if the happy ending in the countryside was true or not, though it sounds plausible.

There's also some stuff in the books about how moving people out of the tenements into flats and houses and council estates had a very detrimental effect on some of the families, because they were used to being crammed together in a very small space and had formed a community, once they were all spread out and moved to different places, it was hard for that community to stay together - and most families wouldn't have had telephones so it's not like they could stay in touch that way either. I did some stuff about this in my sociology degree and found it really interesting, the link with the books. There were studies done on it.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Wed 20-Feb-13 21:14:58

Bertie Yes that destruction of communities & networks was spoken about on 'The Secret History of Our Streets' too. It can't have helped PND to be so isolated.

BertieBotts Wed 20-Feb-13 21:26:52

Oh, I really wanted to watch that, but missed it. I wonder if they ever released it on DVD.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Wed 20-Feb-13 22:29:37

You're not the only one looking for it, this link has been suggested.

I'm in bits watching this about a dog who won the Victoria Cross.

MarthasHarbour Wed 20-Feb-13 22:31:15

The Sound of Music style ending wasnt in the book. The chapter ended with the couple letting their baby die at birth, otherwise the storyline was almost word perfect. Really tough, but what always strikes me is that they are true stories. sad

I too thought the Trixie/Norah segue was amazing.

It is grim but i am really enjoying this series. For anyone reading Farewell to the East End i think next weeks storyline is the Master of the Masters Arms which is another sad one

BertieBotts Wed 20-Feb-13 23:09:23

So she didn't have the later abortion then? Or did they merge two storylines? It was so long ago that I read them.

BertieBotts Wed 20-Feb-13 23:12:16

I think the problem is they used all of the happy endings in the first series grin

what always strikes me is that they are true stories

And even though they tweaked this story to a late abortion, it would have been a true story that happened to someone. It's not something they've made up sad

MarthasHarbour Thu 21-Feb-13 15:20:32

bertie here is how it happened <i have just re-read that story last week!> warning it is really grim...

It starts with Nora being in early pregnancy, she goes to Mrs Pritchard who gives her some smelling salts or something and tells her to come back in a week if the potion doesnt work (which it never was going to). She comes back in a week and has the 'abortion' back at her house, gives Mrs Pritchard 20 guineas

A few weeks later she discovers flutterings and realises that she is still pregnant. This is when she goes round to Mrs Pritchards house and tears three strips off her and asks for her money back. Mrs P says 'i only treated you for stomach cramps' <to keep the police off her door>

So Nora is still pregnant, gives birth, husband calls the midwife who comes out and finds the baby head down in a bucket of blood <sorry everyone - that was the story> Baby dies and there is an inquest which returns an open verdict.

and this was a true story sad sad sad

snowybun Thu 21-Feb-13 18:58:59

Call the midwife is never really going to be light Sunday entertainment I have read all three books and found them fascinating on how life was harsh and brutal in those times and the differences in health care now how far it has come.
I am disappointed that janes story is not how it is in the book and sugar coated.
I have now read amidst life which is all about death and how dying used to be compared to today and when to stop helping and let nature run its course. It is a very upsetting and harsh book but I am glad I read it

mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 19:06:10

A woman I worked with told me a story of her MIls mum leaving a baby on the 'back step' after it didn't look right when it was born, my friend said I couldnt believe it when she told me (the granny had dementia) that apparently they left the baby there for god to decide shock my workmate who is also a HV was in tears when she told us, of course the baby died and was buried and they all mourned. it was the strangest story and very sad.

MarthasHarbour Thu 21-Feb-13 21:22:07

snoweybun I am also disapointed they have not portrayed Jane's story as it was in the book.

I too have learned a great deal about social history from the books and want to learn more. The workhouse era fascinates me in a sad and shocking way

ppeatfruit Fri 22-Feb-13 10:32:41

OMG Marthas and mrsjay its soooo terrible sad

ProphetOfDoom Fri 22-Feb-13 10:49:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bloggingvirgin Fri 22-Feb-13 10:56:57

Is anyone else a bit hmm at the story lines?

I was born in the 50s in a working class area of a city- not London- and contraception was available readily. Even my gran who was born in 1892 and had 3 children used contraception.

I found the episode last week a bit unrealistic because although condoms and caps were available for married women in the 1950s, there was no explanation why the women last week had loads of unwanted children.

LaVolcan Fri 22-Feb-13 22:30:58

I think it was cost - although you would think that a few packets of johnnies would be cheaper than an extra mouth to feed.

BertieBotts Fri 22-Feb-13 22:41:52

blogging they're based on real life memoirs, so not really. Although certain things are explained more in detail in the books.

I think it was cultural more than anything else.

BertieBotts Fri 22-Feb-13 22:43:05

And remember that some of these families were very very poor - poor enough that although another baby would be a huge strain, it would have been enough of a strain to keep buying condoms, enough to put you off, thinking "We'll be alright".

ProphetOfDoom Fri 22-Feb-13 23:47:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anyone watching tonight?

OddBoots Sun 24-Feb-13 20:38:27

I am but about 30 minutes behind.

MissAliceBand Sun 24-Feb-13 20:46:15

I am.

It's the pub story isn't it. Unfortunately I don't think the stories like this, which are tild over a period of time in the books, have as much impact as they did written down.

MissAliceBand Sun 24-Feb-13 20:46:53

*told even grin

Sugarice Sun 24-Feb-13 20:47:20

Yes and I'm blubbing as usual!

I know what you mean but I think they do it well

Oodsigma Sun 24-Feb-13 21:00:46

They did do it very well.

Just wanted the Dr to hug Sister Bernadette at the end sad

susiedaisy Sun 24-Feb-13 21:01:56

I'm watching but am about 20 mins behind they have all just starting queuing for the X-ray machine!

KnockMeDown Sun 24-Feb-13 21:02:44

I found it incredibly poignant tonight.

kansasmum Sun 24-Feb-13 21:03:26

Just sobbed through last 10 mins. It's been a bad day and that finished me!

lirael Sun 24-Feb-13 21:05:34

Noooo - not Sister Bernadette sad

PenelopePisstop Sun 24-Feb-13 21:06:32

Heartbreaking. Again. Cried out loud at the death bed scene. It's a bit cheesy but I really don't care because I love so much.

And the doctor examining Sister Bernadette, erotic and sad. So much love which goes unspoken, so true.

pirouette Sun 24-Feb-13 21:07:24

I'm howling too Knockmedown. my dad got to hold his grandson before he died.sad

lirael Sun 24-Feb-13 21:09:23

My grandfather's brother died aged 12 in a TB sanatorium. We have the letters he wrote to his mum from there - heartbreaking.

Totally and utterly sobbed tonight. Just so so sad.

YouBrokeMySmoulder Sun 24-Feb-13 21:12:05

Ugh very personal for my family too sad can't say any more without outing myself.

lirael Sun 24-Feb-13 21:13:55

'When he said ' I'm leaving now' to the baby. It reminded me so much of when my Mum died and she said to her sisters ' I don't think I'm going to make it this time' - she was so calm and brave.

susiedaisy Sun 24-Feb-13 21:25:26

Just finished watching and have sobbed out loud again the death bed scene was very touching!

In the book doesn't she have a daughter and all is happy until the daughter unexpectedly also dies of tb?

iMyself Sun 24-Feb-13 22:07:32

Oh dear. Just watched last weeks and this weeks. Emotional wreak!

On an unemotinal tangent, there was a trailer for some new series just after, my recording cut off just before they said what it was. Anyone shed any light?

lirael Sun 24-Feb-13 22:35:04

Yes JazzAnnNonMouse, that's right - very bleak. Writers obviously decided to shove the TB onto poor old Sister Bernadette instead...

hackmum Mon 25-Feb-13 09:12:39

Jazz - yes, I was just mentioning this on another thread about CTM in AIBU. It was because Julia was a carrier of TB that her siblings and child all died of it.

I'm sure Sister Bernadette will get better and find true love with the doctor (who's apparently married to the scriptwriter in real life). I can't imagine that they will kill her off, given all the misery there already is in the series!

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 09:30:59

hackmum I haven't read the books but surely there's no way a nun would leave to go off with a married man!
I was also blubbing last night 'cos my DD1 was born in the same hospital that my GD was dying in and I took her to see him just before he died and he cried sad

Animation Mon 25-Feb-13 09:32:14

Can't believe it was the first time I watched it last night. Beautifully filmed. I'd no idea - was expecting it just to be a drama about delivering babies. Pleasantly surprised. smile

Oodsigma Mon 25-Feb-13 09:43:20

I thought the Doctor was a widower?

animation go back and watch the others. Fantastic filming/story/actors but very emotional.

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 09:55:27

Oh you could be right Oodsigma I might have missed the bit when it was mentioned, but he does wear a very obvious wedding ring (which was not the norm for men in the 50s BTW grin

Oodsigma Mon 25-Feb-13 10:22:28

I don't know if it was mentioned but the little boy is often at work with him or comes to him & if they're setting up the love interest thing I doubt she would go for a married man.

Animation Mon 25-Feb-13 10:33:09

Yes Oodsigma I will try and go back and watch the others. What a gem. flowers

LaVolcan Mon 25-Feb-13 11:28:56

Didn't Sister Bernadette have some crisis of vocation and leave in the books?

AmberLeaf Mon 25-Feb-13 11:39:48

Yes the doctor is a widower.

Just watched it on iplayer.

Was the publicans daughter Julia played by Saffron Burrows? maybe not but I thought it looked a bit like her.

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 11:58:14

OOh everything's clear for a nun and doctor wedding then ? grin

Oodsigma Mon 25-Feb-13 12:22:27

Yes to Lavolcon

AmberLeaf Mon 25-Feb-13