Downton Abbey Discussion continued...

(1000 Posts)
ErikNorseman Sun 07-Oct-12 22:08:05


visualarts Sun 07-Oct-12 22:14:06

I think I missed something in the trailer about Ethel - what happened? I was too excited about the newspaper column to concentrate!

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 07-Oct-12 22:17:02

Ethel is going to be Isobel's cook (possibly replacing the oul bitch who wouldn't pass her a tray).

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 07-Oct-12 22:19:24

Re: Mrs H, she was not especially sympathetic by our standards but she's gone above and beyond by 1920 standards. Giving her food, writing on her behalf, meeting her in public.

I do wish she'd given her a hug at the end there though sad

Daisy and the new kitchen maid are going to be at each others throats. Poor Daisy, she could do with a happy storyline.

tribpot Sun 07-Oct-12 22:23:30

So Pickle's clearly gonna do a bunk for Ireland, I can't believe identification was so sophisticated in 1920 that he couldn't just pretend to be his own cousin for a while without getting rumbled. They've hardly got retina scanning at customs, after all.

V disappointed not to hear Dame Maggie advising anyone to chillax.

So now that Ethel has given up Charlie, Isabel is going to offer her a job? I like the fact she's willing to practice what she preaches, although it'd be a darn sight easier for Ethel to get a job with one of Isabel's sympathetic friends, where no-one knows who she is (note point about retina scanning above).

Could the Anna and Bates story finally be over? I do hope so.

And go Edith - time to get your radical on.

Chubfuddler Sun 07-Oct-12 22:25:39

I have just about contained my hysterical sobs now. Amy Nuttall is a fantastic actress I loves her.

Mrs h had a big problem with the shagging but she was quite kind about the baby.

LizLemon007 Sun 07-Oct-12 22:30:57

I missed it. What is Edith up to? is she over the wedding that didn't happen?
and bates? did he do it?

Mama1980 Sun 07-Oct-12 22:32:36

Just marking my place. Ethel made me cry this week <<damn pregnancy hormonesblush>>

tribpot Sun 07-Oct-12 22:34:48

Edith has decided to become a radical. She wrote to the newspaper to complain about the lack of universal suffrage for women and they printed the letter, to Lord 6's horror (and Carson's for that matter).

She barely mentioned the wedding-that-wasn't, just banged on about having to come downstairs for breakfast because she is a spinster.

It seemed from the trailer that Anna has proof that Vera killed herself and deliberately set Bates up to take the fall for it. Hope so - mainly so the bloody storyline can come to an end.

Btw Lord 6 referred to Syb-wig as 'Lady Sybil Branson'. Surely she has forfeited her title in favour of a life of pickle-related humour?

dementedma Sun 07-Oct-12 22:37:58

Ooh good episode tonight. Cried at little charlie being taken away. Pickle is not above seeking refuge with the English aristocracy when it suits him. He is a shit.

visualarts Sun 07-Oct-12 22:38:10

You don't think Branson will go back to Ireland and be executed, do you?
He and Sybil would probably do best to go to America.
Good spin-off potential....

LizLemon007 Sun 07-Oct-12 22:38:24

Oh thanks, good for Lady Edith. what's the pickle reference?

Moln Sun 07-Oct-12 22:38:54

Lizlemon do you want to be told orwatch on the player?

I think she can be called that but not Lady Branson or Lady Jack Branson or whatever his name is.

LizLemon007 Sun 07-Oct-12 22:40:10

I don't think I can watch it on the player with a dongle

Nope, she will always be Lady Sibyl rather than Mrs. I may or may not have relevant family members so I know this for a fact blush

I think Bates did it. From a plot perspective I think it would be more interesting if he had!

Poor Daisy helplessly chasing daffy footmen.

It's a bit ... obvious this series though. A bit soapy and transparent. Loving it but not exactly challenged.

Chubfuddler Sun 07-Oct-12 22:40:33

Surely JF has dropped a massive clanged with lady Sybil Branson? There's no such person. She's mrs Branson as pickles wife and lady Sybil Crawley as fatty bum bums daughter. It's not a mix and match kind of thang. You'd think JF knew that.

Moln Sun 07-Oct-12 22:40:52

Hmmmm exactly HOW long did it take me to write that v short sentance?

visualarts Sun 07-Oct-12 22:41:54

I'll be annoyed if Branson turns out to be a weakling/baddy - sort of 'lower class upstarts will always turn out bad in the end' determinism. But looks as though it's headed that way....

DH and I were discussing how Tom (lol at "Pickle") had started off all huffy but very quickly got used to feather beds and cigars and port. Speaking of which, Matthew seems to be enjoying those too!

Amused by the scene where Matthew thought Mary was going to tell him she was pg but she pretty much said "God no, you must be kidding". Arf arf.

tribpot Sun 07-Oct-12 22:44:06

Ah yes Horatia I see from Wiki that "The daughters of dukes, marquesses and earls are by courtesy ladies; here that title is prefixed to the given and family name of the lady, e.g. The Lady Jane Smith, and this is preserved if the lady marries a commoner, e.g. Mr John and The Lady Jane Smith."

LFCisTarkaDahl Sun 07-Oct-12 22:44:09

Lady Sybil Grantham not Crawley surely, confused

surely JF has dropped a massive clanged with lady Sybil Branson? There's no such person. She's mrs Branson as pickles wife and lady Sybil Crawley as fatty bum bums daughter. It's not a mix and match kind of thang. You'd think JF knew that.

Erm, no. That is how it works. Mr and Lady Sibyl Branson.

JF slips this stuff in to catch you out. Like Cora calling the bloke who died in series one "duke" - cue sniffy but wrong letters to the papers. The huge research team wouldn't let wrong stuff through.

LizLemon007 Sun 07-Oct-12 22:46:39

Is he that 'lower class' though? he is IRISH but that is not the same as lower class. He can read and there was some reference to his family being respectable in the last series.

what did he do in this episode that was bad?

He is Robert Crawley, Earl of Grantham. Surname Crawley. Hence Mary didn't change her name when she married Matthew.

The titles thing is v. confusing even for the servants. When Anna becomes a lady's maid will she be Mrs Bates, seeing as O'Brien is Miss O'Brien.

Is there a Debretts smiley?

Yes I think so. And Mrs Patmore and Mrs Hughes are "Mrs" by courtesy regardless of marital status.

visualarts Sun 07-Oct-12 22:50:53

good point Liz - though he was a chauffeur before he became a journalist, so "lower class than the Gs" is what I really meant. Didn't like the way he was talking to Sybil at the end of the ep - marriage is heading for the rocks, I fear! (hate the thought of Lord G being proved right!)

tribpot Sun 07-Oct-12 22:50:56

I thought Miss O'Brien was Miss O'Brien cos she was too scary to have a first name. I can't imagine Mary calling Anna Mrs Bates. <has flashbacks to the scene where Anna and Mr Bates were naked in bed ... envy (vomit not envy)>

Moln Sun 07-Oct-12 22:50:56

Things that are annoying me about Branston

1) He's so single minded about his country yet he married an English woman (and an English Lady to boot)
2) What the feck is he thinking that his child should be born in Dublin? Surely it's not THAT important when the mother is from another country

ggirl Sun 07-Oct-12 22:52:38

Everytime I look at Bates I can't stop thinking how he is so wrong for that role..he should be handsome!! irks me everytime..

tribpot Sun 07-Oct-12 22:56:41

I'd imagine Branson is after founding a great political dynasty - and is thinking that a child born outside Ireland would be barred from great office or something along those lines? Think Obama birth certificate kerfuffle.

Moln Sun 07-Oct-12 23:05:07

OK DH has just informed me on my point 1) that this actaully did happen (I'm sorry to inform that brain went into it's usual "lalalala" when he start telling me more hsitory than it can cope with so facts are vague) the example he gave were a lady that Yates fancied like mad who married someone else, and a Lady who married a polish man left him and shacked up with an IRA man. Both were mentioned by Lady G apparently.

He didn't shed any light on 2) other than saying seeing Pickles would be hanged as a traitor if he returned to Ireland so he's going to have to relax on some of his principles

ProphetOfDoom Sun 07-Oct-12 23:07:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Moln Sun 07-Oct-12 23:07:49

tribpot not sure how involved in the politics Pickles is, I get the feeling he's more an IRA action/decision man

Punkatheart Sun 07-Oct-12 23:09:30

He was a chauffeur, a servant and that was considered lower class. The classes rarely married one another.

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sun 07-Oct-12 23:10:17

Found you. Wow I did enjoy that. But now to pull it to bits.
Glad Bates and Anna are sorted but FGS can they end the prison storyline. Snore. The interesting bit is Anna sleuthing away on her afternoon off.
Mary-still obnoxious. Her blue dress was hideous. Red dinner party dress was v. Nice though.
Matthew seemed in danger of becoming an old fogey but sorting the estate should wake him up a bit.
Huzzah for Edith! Excellent.
Sybil and Tom should go to America. That bit of plot was a bit tortuous. I'm not sure it quite hung together.
Cried a bit over Ethel.

Pickle is def off to New York (I hope). Bates is def guilty (I hope). He may also be needed in a Larkrise to Candleford spinoff as he left about 6 months ago now to do some stone mason work in Oxford and someone must be missing him. I do wish Mrs Hughes would wake up next to Carson one morning!

tribpot Sun 07-Oct-12 23:17:32
HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 07-Oct-12 23:27:34

The War of Independence is going to be over very soon so Branson can go back (but there is still the Irish Civil War to come immediately following that).

I think JF planned to have Branson/Sybil all end in tears. In fact I bet he didn't even plan for them to get married. Remember he's a massive Tory in real life, I don't think he actually wants a marriage between a socialist and a feminist to thrive. BUT the US audiences in particular just ate up the whole 'love across the class divide' thing and so they went with it.

I really want them to work out and be happy but I don't think it will happen. I think Branson is going to be more and more of an arse and Sybil is going to be made look like a silly fool for ever having gone near him.

Mollydoggerson Sun 07-Oct-12 23:38:46

Hi all,

So my tuppence:

Ethel - why did Isobel not offer to take her and Charlie in, it was staring them all in the face. Charlie will be back....
Isobel and Mary both looked quite cold in their skimpy little dresses.
Mary - does she ever lighten the F up?
Tension building between lazy incompetent Lord G and Matty, there shall be a falling out and know it all Mary will side with Daddy and Carson and they will grow to resent Matty. Mary will not be able to produce a child and alll the tension will kill their sex life.
Edith will agree with Mattys new ideas for Downton. Edith and Matty seem to be getting on like a house on fire (much to pickles delight!).

Pickle - turning a bit brutish and the whole running off to Downton and leaving Sybil in his wake, what was that about, surely he could have hung out in Dover (or wherever) and waited for Sybil, hoping she was just a day behind him. Can Sybil continue to love an active terrorist? The Branson storyline is ridiculous, he was no sooner back in Ireland after holidaying with the in-laws, dining and smoking with them, than he turned around and attacked their ilk. It just doesnt ring true. I think Branson will be over and back to Ireland like a blue arsed fly, he wont be killed off as he is the only Irish connection. I think ultimately Sybil will become more Irish than the Irish themselves and her views and attitudes will be more and more difficult for Mary to swallow.

Why did Edith stand up for Albert? Maybe just because she is rightous.

Thomas - what a brilliant Actor, his falling in love face was gorgeous. I lauged out loud when poo faced O'Brien trudged along the corridor after Thomas had passed a few words with the new guy. She is like the grim reaper.

Who amd why is Bates being stitched up, why were the letters held back? Does anyone care, I really dislike his character, I like Anna. I would like Bates killed off and for Anna to get a nice jaunty young man, or else and affair with Lord moany fatty bum bum.

Posh Granny Grantham will develop a soft spot for the new guy, much to Carson's disdain, she will call him Jimmy and have a laugh with him.

Mollydoggerson Sun 07-Oct-12 23:42:29

The Irish thing might be massively played up and if the Americans are being plaumaused (irish word for licked up to), Branson will be portrayed as a hero. 40 % of the Americans are Oirish.

NonnoMum Sun 07-Oct-12 23:50:24

Little boy actor Charlie was soooo cute (but his bastard grandad will send him off to some 'character building' public school before he's five...)
Ethel was fab.
Actress playing Sybil is gawjess.
Mary is moany, Matty is growing in stature (and will continue to do so when he has to have a few stiff words with Lord Fatty Bum Bum).

Mollydoggerson Sun 07-Oct-12 23:59:48

Oh yes and presumably the Crawleys are church of England. Pickles will insist on his child being baptized Catholic and Lord fatty bum bum will have a strop.

MeFour Mon 08-Oct-12 00:07:06

Jut watching it now. Had to take a break as Ethel's saying good bye to Charlie and I don't like it sad

SophySinclair Mon 08-Oct-12 00:29:25

I cheered at mention of Lady Gregory and Countess Marciewicz!!!! Lady Gregory's estate - that bastion of many a school tour when I was a kid. It's things like this that remind me that the (Irish) history I learned in school is quite different to what they learn in school over here.

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 06:45:39

Ah yes thank you tripot - I have actually heard of Constance Markievicz. But thatl's sort of where it ended bar the bit about her father sendiing everyone off to USA .

visualarts Mon 08-Oct-12 07:02:08

Oh yes Mollydog the impending row over whether 'it' (as sybil said, well fair enough I think we've all done that, just sounded strange to hear that Branson 'wants it to be born in Dublin') will be baptised Church of England or RC.

That may explain why there was that slightly unexpected reference by Lord G to being anti catholic when he was chatting to Cosmo Lang before dinner - preparing the ground for his ire!

Can't remember where they got married though - will that affect where 'it' can be baptised in the 20s, if parents not married in church, or in another denom? There may be a waiver for a grandchild of a lord, of course!

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 08:16:01

Yes visual to be married in a Catholic church then (the non R.C.) partner had to sign to say you were going to have any DCs bought up catholics. I don't remember or I missed their wedding anyone remember where they married?

Chubfuddler Mon 08-Oct-12 08:46:25

They got married at Downton between the end of series 2 and before the Christmas special.

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 08:51:49

I thought that they married at the village church?

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 09:11:14

They married in Ireland, I'm sure they did,there was ref to Lord 6 not travelling for it.

I'd be fairly sure, given Pickles my way atittude, they married in the Catholic faith, strongly possibility Sybil would have had to convert to get married to him, even if she didn't she'd have promised to raise all children Catholic. there's going to be issues!

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 09:25:17

I´m sure I remember Violet discussing it whilst walking from the church.

But thinking on, that doesn´t mean they had just been married there-it wouldn´t have happened, would it?

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 09:26:38

I love it grin!! 3 different answers to my question! that really says something about the script\direction or whatever!

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 09:29:49

Iirc-Cora was still ill?

I think I´m confused because the wedding was discussed by Violet whilst leaving the church & for some reason I was thinking that they must have just married.

But it would have been shown, wouldn´t it?

I think she was making up an acceptable "back story" for Branson as someone had just asked about them?

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 09:31:59

Check Downton w
iki page - I can't because I'm on my phone and it gas a knicker fit if I try to look at a non mobile site and internally collapses!

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 09:34:25

I think that they were leaving Lavinia´s funeral-that´s what the church has got to do with it!

So Violet was discussing a back story with Robert as they were going to be married.

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 09:53:33

MAYBE THEY'RE NOT MARRIED shock gasp (collapse of Lady so and so) grin

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 09:59:42

the website is

I can't even look at word as it's blocked!

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 10:01:15

work not word!

LadyHarrietdeSpook Mon 08-Oct-12 10:32:09

Branson is unbelievable - 'Irish revolutionary' legging it to his artistocratic wife's family's place in England. That fake sobbing in the bedroom.

"But Tom wants the baby born in Dublin!?" After she'd just arrived back - presumably on RyanAir into Liverpool. NO worries, get Carson online to book the return leg this afternoon. It would have been so easy to to and fro at that time, esp as a very pregnant lady.

I love how they just go down and sort things out with the home secretary to keep their ilk out of trouble. To be frank, that's probably the most realistic thing about the whole episode last night.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 11:00:08

I think there a little more to Constance Markievicz's story than being 'a Lady who married a polish man left him and shacked up with an IRA man'


squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 11:00:45

Constance Markievicz was the first woman ever to be elected to Westminster.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 11:02:03

Not only would he NEVER have married her, he wouldn't even have taken employment with a family of the ruling class ykwim? whole thing ridiculous, which is unlike Julian Fellowes isn't it? He could have worked in a cousin (along the same lines as Matthew) who had been brought up in Ireland and he could have been involved somehow in more political way, a la charles stewart Parnell who was church of Ireland/England.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 11:07:14

Oh and just to say Branson presumably a member of the IRA. This is the Old IRA not to be confused with the terrorist organisation which appropriated the name and killed and maimed indiscriminately in the latter stages of the 20th century.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 11:07:42

The whole Branson story is beyond ridiculous.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 11:08:36

The Nei Temerei (sp?) that thing is called! Where the catholic church try to make the non catholic marrying a catholic promist to raise all children catholic. explains why church of ireland churches fuller than catholic churches these days I think!

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 11:11:33

Ha ha squoosh yes there's more to her story than that grin

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 11:13:55

She was also one of the first women in the world to hold a cabinet position.

Wooo! Go Constance!

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 11:15:12

Which means it's probably true! squoosh lizlemon If you need work you go where you can to get it. Oh and did you know that they put last week's DA on at 4 or 5p.m.ish on Sunday afternoon?

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 11:18:48

Ummm, nope, a Republican fire brand would not have gone across the water to doff his cap at the British aristocracy.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 12:15:42

ppeatfruit, I don't think he would have taken a job with the granthams with his views. Taht doesn't stack up.. Maybe gone to England to make his fortune as a business man??, but he could have 'gone into service' in Ireland. Plenty of rich families he could have doffed his cap to closer to home.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 12:17:01

I have to watch it on tv3! :-( (three day wait. I will be out this wednesday. tempted to say 'doh, em, wednesday?? downton abbeeeeeeeeeeeee'

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 12:20:59

I'm thrilled Edith is becoming a 'woman with a cause'. She has recovered remarkably well from her jilting though.

I'd still be lying in bed swigging vodka, dried snot all over my face, listening to Tom Waits.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 12:22:09

Does anyone else think Charlie's Grandad will kick the bucket and his lovely Granny will then bring Charlie and Ethel back together and they'll live as a happy trio?

I thought the actress who plays Ethel did really well last night.

SlightlySuperiorPeasant Mon 08-Oct-12 12:22:55

Aww, I cried at the Charlie bit. There's no way that he would have gone off so easily in RL though - bribed with a teddy?! I think not. Hopefully the old grouch will die ASAP and Ethel will be taken in by his nice wife, having polished her cooking skills with Mrs C.

Mary is unable to have children perhaps? sad Matthew looked quite hopeful didn't he?!

Matthew is going to have to have it out with Lord G. Why is he living at DA? Seems extremely odd - why live with your ILs when you could have the pick of some vair nice houses roundabouts, Downton House for example...

No apology from Sir Anthony. Hmm. I thought he might have committed suicide from the shame of it but apparently not. I foresee a bitter, wife-in-the-attic old age for him.

The Bates story is extremely boring. Either be found innocent and run off to London or get stabbed in a jail fight, I don't care, just go away so I have a chance to scrub my retinas <shudder>

Branson to be hanged.

Edith to be a very swish Someone.

Bates, just

Chubfuddler Mon 08-Oct-12 12:27:41

I suppose pickle has had a gradual political awakening over the years - first as a conchie and then in the light of rising nationalism in Ireland in the 1920s.

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 13:21:09

But Slightly Downton House is just so cramped. It'd be so awful for them.

On that note can anyone else figure out why Mary was getting the old nursery converted into a sitting room for Matthew and her. Surely to goodness there isn't a shortage of rooms in the Abbey that a) there isn't already a spare sitting room b) Matthew wouldn't be worried as to where they might find a room for the day nursery

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:24:19

I think Lady Edith always knew on one level that marriage and babies wouldn't be her path.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Mon 08-Oct-12 13:27:54

Will anyone else admit to have NO IDEA what is going on with Bates, what the to and fro is about, who the characters are they are on about, how it all started...and ended? It just randomly ended...didn't it?

I have no idea what all the mumbling is about. I realise I have been making tea/pouring wine for some of the bits but I tried to engage last night.

I got the Vera Bates friend part but I can't follow what is happening internally, in the prison. NOt one whit.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 13:29:06

I think there'll be bit of the green eyed monster from Mary towards Edith, as Edith will start to have a rollicking time and Mary will be stuck in an endless loop of tea with Granny and Cousin Matthew.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:30:00

What is Lady Edith's cause?

Is tom on the run or something now?

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 13:30:40

The Bates story seems to have grown and grown (much like Bates himself), it should have been sorted aaaages ago but it just keeps rumbling along. I'm annoyed as it looks like he didn't murder Mrs Bates. That was the only bit of interest I had left in that story.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 13:31:40

Edith is channelling Beyonce and singing 'All the Single Ladies (under 30 should be allowed to vote). There'll be booty shaking before long.

I couldn't give a monkeys what happens to Bates, that whole storyline is a waste of space.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:37:10

THat bed scene with anna and bates last season was gross. eeeowooowowowo

Good for Edith!

Saltire Mon 08-Oct-12 13:42:14

Am I the only one who records it then fast forwards past all the scenes with bates in prison?
Bates getting his cell searched
Bates walking round a square of concrete
Bates getting his cell searched
Bates walking round a square of concrete

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 13:43:51

Stop showing off with your fancying recording devices. I practically have to wind my television up, never mind all your new fangled pausing and recording.

Mollydoggerson Mon 08-Oct-12 13:45:13

Bates did a bit of knitting last night, prison isn't all bad afterall.

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:45:40

I wish Saltire! am I the only person in the world who gets the 7 irish channels and that is IT. (one is in irish btw, and it's nto the worst channel. one is rte junior, and one is a news channel.

got a note through the door today sky for 25e a month. NOPE can't do it........

LizLemon007 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:47:07

in the good ol' days you could get bbc & c4 without fancy equipment, but now that we've gone digital and that's 'better' you need ten minutes training to turn on the tv, and you can't get anything but the most basic channels unless you stump up for them! bah

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 14:02:15

Saltire I would if I could too, I usually let the cat out or make a cup of something and no I don't know WTF or care much what is going on with the Bates story. I like Anna though and wish the story was concluded satisfactorily for her sake

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 14:03:01

I DO know it's not real BTW blush grin

NonnoMum Mon 08-Oct-12 14:08:41

Bates' bed in prison looked vair vair comfy with his eiderdown covers. Probably a bit more swish than the servants quarters at Downton.

Poor old Mary and Cousin Matthew not placing it in the right bit - you won't be making babies like that, Matty-boy...

Edith to witness Emily Wilding Davison under the Kings Horse?

Lovely Sybil to give birth and then join Storm model agency, leaving IRA man to campaign for funds in the US of A?

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 14:11:24

I don't mind Bates, and I like Anna lots

Branston is indeed on the run, he is thought to be one of the main burner-downers of a castle belonging to an Anglo-Irish family (he however says he was just there to watch the burning)

With the Bates thing, he cell mate was being a Very Naugty Boy, and one of the prison guards (Mean Guard) was helping him be this. Bates witness this, so the Mean Guard got him but on the dangerous prisoner list (by sayin Very Naughty Boy cellmate had had an act of violence on him), which meant that Bates would not be allowed visitors, nor would be receive any mail, nor would any of his letters be posted. However Bate's cell mate got set up, organised between Bates and Other Prisoner. The Straight as the Day is Long Prison Guard, then informed Bates of he was off the list and so would get all visiting right and mailing rights back.

ppeatfruit Mon 08-Oct-12 14:21:57

OOH thanks moin. That's one of the reasons Pickle probably chose for not working in a posh house in Ire. the Anglo Irish were known to be nasty anti catholics.

campion Mon 08-Oct-12 15:02:12

Emily Davison croaked that way about 8 years ago, Nonno.

Edith's job is obviously to bear the Downton heir - only boys allowed - as Mary's got women's troubles and doesn't really fancy Matthew anyway. In fact, it was a bit of a waste of time marrying her off to him ( was it the other way?). A bit of quiet surrogacy coming up??

Matthew and Mary shaping up to win most tedious couple.

Davros Mon 08-Oct-12 15:26:00

I always thought it was plot morse and meant sentimentality

LadyHarrietdeSpook Mon 08-Oct-12 15:29:01

Never thought I'd say this but I almost wish it had worked out with Lav.

MeFour Mon 08-Oct-12 15:34:01

No I do too
Then I have to keep it so I can go and look at what people are talking about on here

Edith is channelling Beyonce and singing 'All the Single Ladies (under 30 should be allowed to vote)'.


springyhope Mon 08-Oct-12 16:20:24

The huge research team wouldn't let wrong stuff through.

except 'sort out some sandwiches for branson, carson'

sort out? <sigh> I want to at least pretend that DA is real, with real live people in it. Can't with all that american stuff in. I can just see them all in their trailers wearing jeans.

Animation Mon 08-Oct-12 16:34:02

Oh man! can't believe I fell asleep on the settee five minutes into it last night - just as they were opening letters and Anna didn't have one. confused

I'm reading what you're saying - but I can't get a clue. confused

Will watch tonight. smile

Yes, that was cringey. I suspect the script actually said "ask Mrs Patmore to cut some sandwiches" but Lady Mary ad libbed. Tsk.

What about new footman to Alfred about Carson "He acts like he's the big cheese".
Alfred "He is the big cheese".

Big cheese???!

springyhope Mon 08-Oct-12 19:03:49

Where can we send these complaints? I suppose it's all filmed now but I'd like to get to the 'big cheese' in all this and Be Heard.

they're talking about cheese on the Archers <weird>

Felicitywascold Mon 08-Oct-12 19:05:24

I do wish Mrs Hughes would wake up next to Carson one morning!

This. Or at the very least a snog in the wine cellar..

Does anyone have an OED? There are usually dates on slang expressions.

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 19:20:52

From what I have found-1920s

Then the scriptwriters are showing off again.

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 19:57:38

Carson is dying to polish Mrs Hughes' silver ware and she is dying to grab his bouillon spoon.


Felicitywascold Mon 08-Oct-12 20:07:21

My DH likes to pronounce Downton 'Filthy' at points of slight innuendo during the programme. Makes for entertaining viewing when every nown again I hear the word muttered darkly from someone who's in the room but pretending not to be watching!

Felicitywascold Mon 08-Oct-12 20:09:22

"The first reference there to 'big cheese' meaning wealth or fame comes from 'O. Henry' (William Sydney Porter), in Unprofessional Servant, 1910"

From a uk website about the origin of slang terms.

dementedma Mon 08-Oct-12 20:15:16

If Mary is barren or Matthew firing blanks then there will be no heir,and if Sybil has a boy then the irishman's son will inherit.
I don't think there is any way Pickle would have gone into service with the hated English in the first place.

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 20:17:52

If the estate is entailed, I thought it could only go through the male line.

How can another man´s son inherit?

It would have to be a male relative of Matthew.

dementedma Mon 08-Oct-12 20:23:28

Hmm. But if there is no son or anymore nephews.....then what would happen?

diddl Mon 08-Oct-12 20:25:06

If Matthew is the last male, does that mean that the entail would no longer apply & he can leave it to who he wishes?

I don't know. He hasn't got any brothers. No pressure then Mary.

In which case I stand corrected re the Big Cheese. Bloody JF!

Am eagerly looking forward to ructions between Matthew and Lord Fatty Bum Bum over financial mismanagement. Maybe Carson's been fiddling the books somehow - backdoor trade in vintage port or suchlike.

The scene with Ethel and Charlie was so sad!

Moln Mon 08-Oct-12 22:55:05

Lord fatty bum bum is such a wally, telling Matthew everything was fine (or whatever he said)

Yes yes that's right Fatty Bum Bum, because it's not like your only just after losing a fortune is it

squoosh Mon 08-Oct-12 23:04:38

I did think 'oooh controversial' when Lord Fatty Bungle from Rainbow said there was 'something of the johnny foreigner' about Catholics.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Mon 08-Oct-12 23:14:47

I don't think pickles son can inherit. It has to go through the male line. If any of the three Girls sons could have inherited they wouldnt have been in such a panic.

visualarts Tue 09-Oct-12 07:02:24

But maybe a woman's son can inherit if there is no 'male line' heir left?
Sybil's child will be related to Matthew, so could be in the running?

I watched the last few minutes again - I think Sybil may be seeing Branson with New Eyes.

Moln Tue 09-Oct-12 07:25:29

the girls might not be able to inherit but their male off-spring can surely? Any male off-spring for Fatty Bum-Bum's daughters equals the male linage?

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 08:00:05

"Any male off-spring for Fatty Bum-Bum's daughters equals the male linage?"

Well it equals their husband´s lineage, doesn´t it-ie not Crawleys-other than M&M´s children.

But yes, if Matthew is the last male, what then?

Sell up rather than it go to the chauffeur´s son??

Well our lovely Queen inherited a title meant for the boys so maybe they can.

I reckon creepy Tom is fiddling the books although I cant imagine he is doing any buying for the house. Perhaps we'll find out that Mrs Hughes has a villa in Spain she plans to retire to.

Sorry to butt in but did anyone else notice the comment about soup being eaten (drunk?) with a tablespoon?? My Dad does this, I thought he was just strange, turns out he's proper posh! [proud]

I assume the entail means it can't pass through the female line at all, so no heir of Crawley girls can inherit even if male. Presumably if M&M have only girls too they would also have to find a distant cousin to inherit. In RL this is quite often why land goes one way in a family and titles another. I don't know what the deal is with the title in DA, was that explained at the beginning?

Moln Tue 09-Oct-12 08:24:10

That's what I was wondering didl - if there are no males from Matthew does it fall back on Fatty bum bum? Or maybe they then have to dig deep into Matthew's male linage?

The Earldom of Portland is a RL example of what can happen in when there is wealth, land, titles but no male heirs. Although with them eventually the daughters and their descendents got to keep the land but not the titles!

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 08:37:09

Well it does seem odd that there wouldn´t be any other males if you go back far enough.

Although my all accounts it was a struggle to find Matthew-and horror of horrors, he´s so distantly related that he´s not an aristo!

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 08:37:42

"The hated English" When we lived in north London we lived next door to irish Cs and in our road there must've been 5 families who were irish they were all friendly and it was in the time when some of their compatriots were leaving bombs about the place.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 08:45:46

Remember [JF's] he's a massive Tory in real life

You say that as though it's a shameful character defect holdmecloser wink

Edith on Bbc1 now

Only for about 10s though

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 09:49:52

Darn missed itWhoKnows Did she say anything interesting?

Not really, was really about a new play she's in. I always like to see what

Sorry, phone posting. What actors look like in RL. She spoke like Edith but not quite as posh. They just asked her about the jilting and she said she was glad it had been aired now and she didn't have to keep it secret any more.

Merrin Tue 09-Oct-12 10:02:46

Did I imagine it or did someone mention the entail ending with Mathew?

sieglinde Tue 09-Oct-12 10:10:44

I think Lord G's line abt the eeeevil Catholics was absolutely in period. Explains why people like Branson were about to rebel.

I refuse to go infantile by saying Fatty BumBum. Sorry, all. Maybe I could go with Fatarse...

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 10:10:59

Thanks WhoKnows smile Yes the jilting sure was a surprise!

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 10:13:12

It wouldn't be surprising if Mat's firing blanks he did have some sort of injury 'down there' in the war didn't he?

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 10:14:16

Cousin Matthew fires porridge, not sperm.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 10:18:22

Oh I know the 'catholic johnny foreigner' comment was completely accurate for the time. I was pleased that JF was giving some true depths to an aristocratic Lord of the time rather than portraying him as some modern day liberal whose main preoccupation is his servant’s wellbeing.

More realism in terms of these opinions would be a good thing.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 10:27:05

Very true squoosh he's not very liberal where his DD's marriages are concerned though is he? Though it's true he uncharacteristically "comes round" in the end.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 10:27:14

I thnk there are still people in the british aristocracy who would think like that, even ifthey've never set foot in an anglican church for anything other than hatch,match and dispatch.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 10:31:14

@pptrea, I had a bit of that in England, very occasionally somebody would want a metaphorical medal for not holding it against me that I was irish when the the ira were up to no good. I didn't see it as my shame ykwim. I'd never associated with any terrorist of any description, so I didn't feel gratitude that somebody could overlook the fact that I was Irish! I suppose I expected nothing less. ANd in fairness, that is exactly what happened, over a decade of living in the UK and only the odd knobhead said something stupid. Everybody else was fine. But then, I was in London where there was every nationality under the sun.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 10:41:03

Sorry if i sounded a bit racist or anti R.C. jenna i certainly didn't mean to; DH is R.C. I was saying that exactly as you said most 'normal' people just get on with their lives the best they can living and working where they are able to. IYSWIM

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 10:44:13

No! no worries, I know what you mean. It's just that the ira felt as distant to me as they did to most englsh people. brew

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 10:44:30

oops, Brtish people I mean.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 10:48:56

I can understand that jenna thanks for the cuppa I'll have a green tea please grin . We're living between London\west country and Fr. It's odd living in a different country though grin.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:03:06

green tea? I don't have any of that iin the cupboard. i'm always gasping for a lovely cup of tea after a trip to france or spain!

Loopy4got Tue 09-Oct-12 11:07:03

Can someone tell me about Ethel. I take it she is not "on the game"? I take it she is doing something utterly humbling like stitching or something. Can someone please let me know?

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 11:12:55

Ethel has lowered herself by working as a waitress in horror of horrors, a modern Lyons tea rooms instead of a grand house.

Rumours that she is dropping her drawers for unrespectable men are completely unfounded. Kind of. In a way. Sort of.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:15:50

at least she might get a few tips in the lyons tea rooms.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 11:18:04

I was touched by her goodbye to little Charlie. Was nice to see some raw emotion in DA.

Felicitywascold Tue 09-Oct-12 11:19:56

I thought she was on the game? What have I missed?

Loopy4got Tue 09-Oct-12 11:36:24

Oh good so she isn't on the game. I did think it was one of those things that everyone got wrong because no one would say. Wow life in the olden days!
When is Bates going to be freed?
It will all come right in the end..........

Punkatheart Tue 09-Oct-12 11:54:56

Ethel is a prostitute - it was a huge problem for an unmoneyied/unmarried girls at the time - particular if you were a 'fallen' woman and had a baby.

Primogeniture I think was abolished in 1925...but at the time of Downtown now the women haven't even got the vote unless they are over 30 and homeowners. It seems as if Julian Gough has made a list of all the historical things and shoehorned 'em in.

I like Bates but he of course has an enemy now. I bet my aristocratic gold crown (I haven't got one - so it's no problem) that he does get out and is pursued by that escaped prisoner, Sherlock Holmesian style....

One thing they rarely talk about on Downton is books of the time - so of which were very influential. Big library though, so that's OK.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 12:07:19

Julian Gough punk? I think you'll find he's called Julian Fellowes (with that extra 'e' of course) grin

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 12:38:29

If Ethel isn´t "on the game"-why was she hanging around on the streets?

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 12:44:12

Because all the youth clubs are closed, diddl?

The previous earl sewed up the land/money having to go with the title as part of the Robert/Cora marriage negotiations - Matthew can leave it where he likes. The title bit was outside their control.

Why oh why do I remember this stuff when I can't remember what I went into the kitchen for?!

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 13:16:46

He tied up Cora´s money to the estate.

But why does the entail end with Matthew?

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 13:23:40

I am now picturing Matthew with a lovely swishing tail.

Loopy4got Tue 09-Oct-12 13:47:28

Oh NO is Ethel really on the game? I thought they were all mistaken as they always talk around subjects??

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 13:53:18

Well Isobel is helping "fallen women", isn´t she?

Hence why Ethel went to her?

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 13:58:37

Ethel is most definitely on the game. I wish she was working in a Lyons Tea Rooms.

dapplegrey Tue 09-Oct-12 14:33:18

Squoosh I agree with you about attitudes of that era. However I suppose Julian Fellowes wants to portray Lord G as a decent person and the views held by those of Lord G's background at that time would today be so shocking that he would be regarded as a real baddy.
You're right though - it's not very realistic.

dapplegrey Tue 09-Oct-12 14:36:48

Diddl - I don't know if the entail ends with Matthew (unless I've missed something) but they would have to find a male cousin who was descended through the male line from the first Lord Grantham.
If the title dies with Matthew (presuming he has no male heir) then I don't know what happens with the entail - presumably they can leave the house and estate to who they want.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 14:37:48

true... the racism, sexism, classism, elitism would appall us all if he wrote us as it really was.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 14:54:35

dapplegrey I agree with you about attitudes. I'm about halfway through an old recording of Maison Close on Sky Arts.

It's set in a Parisian brothel in the 1880s. It's glossy and has definitely been made to be titillating but in reality it's unflinching and brutal.

The women are prisoners - a 15 year old was tricked into spending money thinking she was being taken out to dinner and was raped to pay off part of her debt. It's not clear when the debt will end - it keeps growing because they have to pay for board and lodging and clothes.

Another teenager was diagnosed with syphilis and had no idea how serious it was because the lesion wasn't painful. They did though and she was sold on to a cheaper brothel. She will undoubtedly die soon in misery and pain.

The police, courts, doctors and 'respectable' society perpetuate the misery and don't think they're doing wrong. The women have no rights and were banned by law from mixing with 'decent' people on the streets and confined to certain neighbourhoods.

I'm sure attitudes in Britain 40 years later weren't that much different. I can see how 'decent' women thought they deserved it and men were able to ignore their own hypocrisy.

Sorry about that rant.

Back to Downton. I see from the trailer the innocent new footman is horrified by Thomas's predatory gay ways grin

dapplegrey Tue 09-Oct-12 15:03:20

As you say Limited, they didn't think they were doing anything wrong as those were the generally accepted attitudes of the day.
I wonder in 100 years time how things will have changed from today and what generally accepted views of now will seem shocking to our descendants.
Sorry, off topic.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 15:04:50

they felt no empathy whatsoever for poorer people.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 15:09:36

There were philanthropists though Jenna some real Christians helped out the poor not enough of them of course.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 15:18:49

Isobel is one of those good women who's offering practical help - though priggish.

I'm not sure she would have favoured Ethel keeping Charlie though. There wasn't really much hope for either of them if the child stayed and I think Isobel would have truly thought that Charlie was better off with his grandparents - particularly since his grandmother seems good too.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 15:21:24

btw did anyone else notice that Isobel had a tan in Sunday's episode? Lord 6 has one too.

I think it's just the actresses playing the daughters who are kept in darkened rooms for authenticity purposes.

BoerWarKids Tue 09-Oct-12 15:21:37

I read that a main character will die this series, maybe Pickle?

I've always hoped that Carson and Mrs Hughes will end up together. Hope they don't leave it too late! (Thinking of Remains of the Day..)

I think Sybil goes into labour this week smile

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 15:23:55

yes limited but at least Isobel calls a spade a spade. There used to be soo much that wasn't talked about (it was still similar in the 50s) I was so ashamed to discover my parents weren't married and we're talking 1968!!

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 15:27:38

I think Sybil goes into labour this week

I love a good bad childbirth scene.

Branson and Lord 6 will argue about Branson's unpronounceable choice of name over Lady Sybil's dying body.

Lord 6 will then do as he did when faced with an uncomfortable conversation with Matthew over the mismanagement of the estate and call the ladies back in.

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 15:28:20

I like Isobel-she has some common sense at least.

Not "oh fuck how will we cram into that tiny little house & only 8 servants!!"

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 15:34:11

ppeatfruit My brother and SIL had to get married in 1970. My mum still hasn't recovered from the shame. btw They are still together and happy which seems a bloody miracle.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 15:38:54

Sybil will be the one to croak it I bet.

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 15:42:08

PLease not Edith.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 15:52:49

Won't be Edith. You can tell that JF has already given up on Sybil. She doesn't really do or say anything of interest.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 15:53:44

He has signed her death warrant with a chewed Bic biro a Mont Blanc pen.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 15:55:20

yeah, my aunt and uncle the same (apparently) and all the brothers and sisters colluded wth not telling parents til after the wedding as it would have ruined the day for them. Hearing his in different times obviously I said, what, even though they were getting married confused .

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 15:56:49

That's very true squoosh Jessica Brown-Whatsit probably knew the writing was on the wall when she received her script and thought they'd delivered a takeaway leaflet by mistake.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 16:08:37

There will be a touching child birth scene, Pickles, Sybil and Picalilli will make a wholesome image of a blessed family trinity, bathed in glorious golden light.

'I've never been happier, I love you so much Pickles and little Picalilli. . . . . oh but I do feel a little unwell, . . . . . '

Cue moving deathbed scene.

Punkatheart Tue 09-Oct-12 16:09:05

Ha Julian Gough indeed - different writer altogether - must do better!

I do watch it but it's too researchy and cardboard for me. The characters don't live enough and it's all about witty lines for Maggie Smith. I loved the old Upstairs Downstairs...I got really involved watching those again. Yes, it used history but it all grew from wonderful characters: the impish Sarah, constipated Rose and the fantastic Mr Hudson. Sigh. Bring back the old days of the old days, I say. None of this modern rubbish about the old days. wink

MordionAgenos Tue 09-Oct-12 16:09:54

I'm certain that Edith and Matthew will soon be doing all the shagging. Tumultuously. And she will get upduffed and Mary will not.

BoerWarKids Tue 09-Oct-12 16:16:13

Yes, Sybil dies giving birth to little Saoirse or Padraig grin

Pickle goes on the run (takes baby?)

I have high hopes for Edith this series. She'll move to London, wear trousers, take a lover, etc, etc.

MordionAgenos Tue 09-Oct-12 16:17:24

She will be shagging Matthew before October's out. Mark my words.

BoerWarKids Tue 09-Oct-12 16:18:01

Didn't Edith fancy Matthew in S1?
Vague recollection of her showing him round local churches?

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 16:19:51

Maybe Edith will take a lady lover. That would shake it up a bit. They could wear nice trouser suits and smoke cigarettes.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 16:22:37

Vague recollection of her showing him round local churches?

Please God let Edith have improved her seduction technique

MordionAgenos Tue 09-Oct-12 16:23:03

It'll be MAtthew. Mark my words. And we will have another inheritance crisis lined up for umpty thrumpty years down the line (because after she gets upduffed that other guy, the real heir, the one who was burned in the War, will come back and marry her). JF is nothing if no formulaic and Downton is basically Dallas with posh frocks. Which is great, I'm not knocking it, I love it. grin

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 16:25:02

I would be so pleased if Matthew shuffled off stage left never to return. Mary would flourish as a merry widow.

Moln Tue 09-Oct-12 16:26:13

I thought that too Mordion - Matthew seems less boring around Edith, and he was delighted with her writing to the newspaper.

Didn't she initially fancy Matthew too?

Not sure about the shagging part, most convienent would be for Mary to cork it and the Edith to marry her brother in law (not sure what Mary would die from though - being overly stuffy? Moving into Downton House and being unable to cope with the lack of space?

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 16:27:58


Yes, not sure showing someone a medieval tabernacle is the way to a man's pants.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Oct-12 16:31:25

Oh yes. There was a big clue to Matthew's fate when Dan Stevens was interviewed by Lynn Barber recently.

He wouldn't say anything but you could practically hear the music swelling as you turned the page.

squoosh Tue 09-Oct-12 16:36:26

Maybe some falling masonry could land on his head. That would be a suitably dull way for him to go.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 16:38:06

Punk i enjoyed a lot of U.D. but some of the script\plots and acting left a lot to be desired! Especially the recent ones!! It was very stagey.

I'm not suggesting D.A. is perfect BTW but the sets are amazingly realistic in comparison.

Hands off Dan squoosh grin Mary is a bit too lugubrious to flourish IMO!!

Punkatheart Tue 09-Oct-12 16:47:15

I would agree it was theatrical but that's what I liked about it...every episode was like a little play. They have more money to spend in Downton and yes, the sets don't feel as if they could fall over. I would probably fall over Matthew though....quite happily. There was very little in the way of crumpet in Upstairs, Downstairs...

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Oct-12 16:51:21

The young John Alderton wasn't bad and the son of the house (i can't remember his name) was very YUM!!

Moln Tue 09-Oct-12 16:51:46

OK must stop taking forever to write - keep ending up with lots of cross posts!

I hadn't thought about the guy that was supposed to have died that said he didn't but no one but Edith belived.

i'd like that, he married Editih, she has a clatter of boys, and at the end of it will say "in your face Mary!". sybil will of course die in childbirth, where she'll have given birth to a boy Facthna, who will survive and then begin a bitter battle between Fatty Bum Bum and Pickles about his religion (though Facthna will become a Buddist in the 1940s and move to Tiibet

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 16:54:05

Ethel's inlaws would have had the babby in a flash, straight after it was born. NOne of this 21st C tip-toeing around the mother. Hate to tell you but the toffs do similar these day in all.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 16:55:42

(what happened to myself there? I seem to have written rubbish)

diddl Tue 09-Oct-12 16:56:58

I´d always hoped that Matthew would go for Edith-but he´s such a bore now!

I also rather liked that Napier chap.

Love all the speculation. I'm rather hoping we haven't seen the last of Edith's jilt. Could he turn out to be an antisuffragist or something?

And yy re Sybil. DH and I believe she is only pg to set up a death in childbirth.

NonnoMum Tue 09-Oct-12 20:04:25

Won't be long before it is revealed that Edith is NOT the natural child of Lord Fatty Bum Bum...

Don't know what it means for the plot but a sackable offence for the casting director??

Bue Tue 09-Oct-12 20:10:25

Surely Sybil is going to die in childbirth? I've been thinking this for weeks. Then eventually barren M&M will raise the child as their heir?

Animation Tue 09-Oct-12 20:47:41

Not understanding the Mary/ Matthew relationship. Thought they were supposed to be in love. She's adopted this detached attachment style and authorative manner all the time with him. I wish he'd bring her down a peg or too.

And what's with fatty bum bum - GO TO BED!! shock at Pickle??

I think Bates is getting slimmer round the face - and looking very fanciable again.

Animation Tue 09-Oct-12 20:52:08

Yes, I thought Matthew was less boring and more natural and spontaneous around Edith - with her article in the paper.

tribpot Tue 09-Oct-12 20:52:47

I'd die in childbirth if it meant getting out of that wig.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 20:58:31

yes, bates a lttle less chubby than last season but still not 'fanciable' come on!

Animation Tue 09-Oct-12 21:10:57

Well if Bates looked at me the way he looks at Anna's letters I think I would be undone.blush

Now I would say that Bates look marginally less unattractive, but still a long way from fanciable.

All the chemistry that M and M had last season has evaporated.

I still suspect Carson of being Mary's father.

dementedma Tue 09-Oct-12 21:25:31

Nooooo! when bates smiled at Anna's letters, I was a goner. I think he,s lovely

Moln Tue 09-Oct-12 21:32:28

No way is Carson Mary's father he's WAY much of a stickler for the rights and wrongs of being in service

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Oct-12 07:51:53

Oh the actor who plays Bates has lovely blue eyes (I'm a sucker for light eyed, dark haired men; think a slimmer Paul Hollywood) grin SEXY

They need some dashing young blade with bulging pants to rip some corsets and liven things up a bit. Matthew is duller than Dullsville and what does Lord FBB do all day, in fact what do any of then do all day except get dressed and undressed for dinner.

squoosh Wed 10-Oct-12 15:03:11

It's a shame they can't all go up to London for a season, surely they must have a smart London address in addition to Downton. Sexy shenanigans galore would await.

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 15:05:44

Brendan Coyle? thought he had very dark brown eyes.

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Oct-12 15:31:39

You may be right jenna the lighting in his scenes in DA is not good grin still got nice eyes though grin

Merrin Wed 10-Oct-12 17:01:38

I'm sure I remember a London house from series 1. If anyone needs a season in town its Edith!

Animation Wed 10-Oct-12 17:09:54

It's the warm twinkle and steady gaze in Bate's eye that is alluring to my sensibilities - and to imagine that such a gaze to be fixed on my countenence ...I'm sure my eyes would lock in unspeakable astonishment. blush

Animation Wed 10-Oct-12 17:14:16


It's true they need a dashing young blade - there seems to be no chemistry anywhere- so far.

I think the only house in London that we've seen is Lady Rosamund's.

squoosh Wed 10-Oct-12 17:17:22

Oh dear, Animation, you seem to be getting a bit hot and flustered. Your corset may be a little too tight today.

diddl Wed 10-Oct-12 17:34:48

There is a London house as they were there for a seaon & Sybil "came out" didn´t she?

Mary wasn´t invited to much iirc because of the Pamuk scandal.

Don´t think that we saw the house, though.

Mollydoggerson Wed 10-Oct-12 17:40:43

Ppeatfruit, google Cillian Murphy, OMG does that boy have nice eyes.

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Oct-12 17:51:32

Thanks molly not bad but doesn't beat Paul Hollywood's of the Great British Bake Off!! "Cor!!!

limitedperiodonly Wed 10-Oct-12 18:09:09

mollydoggerson I met Cillian Murphy. Those eyes are mesmerising in real life.

<will dig out DVDs of 28 Days Later, The Wind That Shakes The Barley, Batman, Breakfast on Pluto and that one where he hijacks a plane>

<I'm interested in his acting, I tell you>

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 18:36:47

oh yeh, he's handsome alrght. [understatement]

l liked lady rosamund. they should bring her back!

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 18:38:20

@ ppeatfruit, if you like brendan coyle, have you seen north and south. another goodie!! loved that, and i'm pretty sure he's in it too.

I agree that the London house belonged to Miss Moneypenny Lady Rosamund.

Of course she is another example of an earl's daughter keeping her title despite marriage.

More London! Presumably it's harder to film.

I read recently that the "upstairs" is filmed mainly on location and the "downstairs" mainly on a studio set, and the two groups of actors don't actually meet that often, which helps to keep the interplay distant. Fascinating stuff!

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Oct-12 09:16:26

limited I could see that Cillian's eyes are probably amazing in RL smile

jenna I saw North and South the Gaskell one? who was Brendan in it? yes I liked Lady Rosamund too!

horatia did you see the link to the Children In Need clip (sorry can't do links) where you see the servants pretending to go downstairs disappearing behind a wall and turning up on a different set! Very funny.

DreadingWhatComesNext Thu 11-Oct-12 09:33:00

ppeatfruit, he was a kind of socialist factory worker type. He had a job and enough to live on but he got the lines that challenged the status quo. And, i thnk his daughter got sick and Daniela DB's daughter visited her with a basket of fruit. He wasn't sufficiently grateful for the basket of fruit when his daughter was dying of a disease brought on from working in poor conditions at the mill......... but she got into 'class war' type dscussions with him. Does that ring a bell?

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Oct-12 09:40:25

yes Dreading thanks I remember it well now! he was CUTE in that! I thought Daniela W. was not a talented enough actress for the part (pretty enough just not intelligent enough IYSWIM).

limitedperiodonly Thu 11-Oct-12 09:46:49

Bates is far less creepy in Starlings. I'm not going to go as far as saying he's more attractive.

Fiderer Thu 11-Oct-12 10:56:36

I like Bates, though I think the prison story has run its course. He looks so grimy but after that bed scene with Anna am convinced he's the type of man who looks better clothed. She can scrub his back and make his eyes twinkle.

When he is released won't there be ructions about his being Lord 6's valet again? Trouble with Thomas - though again, I think Thomas v Bates has been done to death as well. Maybe he becomes Matthew's valet, with Anna as Mary's ladymaid. Poor Molesley, he'll have to return to the scary embrace of the sharp Mrs Bird.

Talking of whom - was it obvious to the village that Ethel had become a prostitute? Thought it v unfair of Carson (in the trailer for next week) to keep booming out "A PROSTITUTE". Hasn't Ethel suffered enough without it being boomed out? Know he'd disapprove but I thought it'd be more "a Woman Like That". Prostitution, like Thomas's gayness and Matthew's Tingle, wouldn't be spoken of so bluntly.

limitedperiodonly Thu 11-Oct-12 11:01:59

How much work would there be for Ethel?

Would she have to commute to the fleshpot of York or would she corner the market as The Only Prostitute In The Village?

sieglinde Thu 11-Oct-12 11:10:16

Of course villages had prostitutes. Many have them now. smile

squoosh Thu 11-Oct-12 11:11:59

I love the word 'fleshpot'. Sound so clammy and jiggly.

Fiderer Thu 11-Oct-12 11:30:34

Saint Isobel would make work for her.

About Ethel, I meant that as she was living in York, would it have been public knowledge in Downton without Carson's Booming?

JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 13:55:48

Cousin violet is the only one with a heart. so i guess lady edith is going to help her???

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Thu 11-Oct-12 14:08:37

M&M- It shocked me a bit when Mary's papa asked Matthew how the honeymoon went and Matthew replied that his eyes had been opened or something! And agree that Mary has become a very cold wife, all "have you done this darling" and shrugging off the affection and hints about babies. But surely they can't have more angst in their relationship. Matthew would die of honour and priggishness before he could shag Edith. FGS let them have a brood of boys.

Felicitywascold Thu 11-Oct-12 16:01:54

I took the comment about eyes opening to mean that Mathew had been filled in on the details of the loss of the fortune. He didn't know this before the wedding.

I think it was put in to sound rude but wasn't really iyswim!

squoosh Thu 11-Oct-12 16:04:41

Oh I think the 'eyes had been opened' comment was a definite nudge, wink type reference.

JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 16:06:10

That's how I heard it too!!

He wouldn't have been a virgin though would he?

squoosh Thu 11-Oct-12 16:08:47

It did make me cringe a bit I have to say. Bit crass.

Definitely a virgin I would think. He doesn't have enough pep in his step to be careering around town with fast and loose women. Lavinia didn't exactly look like a minx either.

JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 16:13:24

Yes, hardly a remark one would make to one's father-in-law, even today.

would mary have been able to prevent a pregnancy? she sounded like she was on top of things in that department 'time for babies down the line'... but they didn't have condoms in those days did they?

GeorginaWorsley Thu 11-Oct-12 16:27:41

Perhaps Mary is a Marie Stopes customer?
If Sybil dies in childbirth,as I think she will,Mary will be terrified of becoming pregnant....

JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 16:31:22

i think it will be lady edith or cora that dies. lady edith could chain herself to some railings and a horse and carriage could crash into her.

or, maybe matthew will die, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,, PHEW, not before impregnating lady mary.

squoosh Thu 11-Oct-12 16:38:23

I think a gentleman would have had a reusable French Letter in those days. Matthew is far too buttoned up to dare look at his own penis, so Mary could have popped it on without him noticing.

limitedperiodonly Thu 11-Oct-12 16:42:17

They'd had rubber condoms for more than 50 years - discovery of vulcanisation. They were a bit thick though. Animal gut and cloth ones since about 1600 impregnated with spermicide of varying effectiveness tied with ribbons and washed after use. They were prone to holes (who'd have guessed?) They were used to protect men from VD rather than women from pregnancy.

The British Army didn't distribute them in the First World War because they were immoral. They relied on the spectre of syphilis to control the troops' desires. Don't know if it's true but I read somewhere that prostitutes with visible sores could charge more than healthy women and soldiers who wanted to escape the guns would go with them and hope to be invalided out after a court martial. Can you imagine the terror of the war that would make someone opt for such a horrible illness?

The 20s brought the invention of the latex condom - thinner and less likely to burst into flames. It wasn't the friction, grin more that rubber ones were manufactured using benzene making a condom factories a dangerous place to work. Mind you, most factories were lethal in one way or another.

Some feminists opposed condoms because they put birth control in the hands of men. Freud opposed them because they interfered with sensation.

Can you tell I used to work in a town that was very proud of its Durex factory and museum? grin

limitedperiodonly Thu 11-Oct-12 16:44:16

I like the idea of Lady Edith outraging public decency by shrieking 'off with condoms, on with the cap' in a feminist protest.

Is there no end to the wisdom that one can acquire on Mumsnet?

squoosh Thu 11-Oct-12 16:46:15

I'm fascinated with the idea of animal gut be-ribboned Restoration condoms! I bet they smelt oh so inviting.

limitedperiodonly Thu 11-Oct-12 17:19:05

I can see Johnny Depp poncing about in nothing but a full-bottomed wig and a beribboned lamb's gut condom.

limitedperiodonly Thu 11-Oct-12 17:31:04

The same place was famous for Lee Enfield rifle which was a formidably lethal weapon. In WWII soldiers would use their condom rations from the town's other big local employer to protect the muzzle from getting damp.

Felicitywascold Thu 11-Oct-12 17:34:11

Is there no end to the wisdom that one can acquire on Mumsnet?

Every days a school day!

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Thu 11-Oct-12 18:00:54


JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 20:34:13

that's interesting LImited!! the idea of a man reusing it is gross!

PortBlackSandyClawsss Thu 11-Oct-12 21:09:14

New waiter looks like Simon Baker (Mentalist)

Bates still has a face like a saggy Bollock

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Thu 11-Oct-12 21:22:11

Oh yes. I don't like him already. He is smarmy and full of himself.
I want Thomas to have a fulfilling love affair and cheer up.

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Thu 11-Oct-12 21:25:12

New bloke I mean not Bates.
Bates goes from aw isn't he sweet to gawd what a righteous bore. Exacerly like his character in larkrise. Either way I would not Do him.

PurpleGeekyGirl Thu 11-Oct-12 21:28:39

I had a dream about Carson last night. Weeing into a special recepticle in his butlers table placed in front of the fire. Was most disconcerting. Think watching 2.5 seasons in 2 days was perhaps a tad too much for my brain to cope with.

Have you already covered what happened to Mary's broken engagement to the newspaper man? How come he didnt print the story when she ditched him??

PortBlackSandyClawsss Thu 11-Oct-12 21:32:39

I think he did print the story but then we've moved on two months and it's all been forgotten hmm

Lol at Carson dream ... he has a great voice though ... was he weeing or you?

PurpleGeekyGirl Thu 11-Oct-12 21:38:13

port cheers. Oh to have a memory that short on real life.

Carson was peeing. It was one of those dream about weeing dreams and wake up panicking you have in the bed ones...

Did Mary actually get engaged to newspaper man? Lady Rosamund discovered he'd been blackmailing Lavinia is all I remember.

I don't think he did - at the end of last series she told Matthew who was a bit catsbum about it but said they would get Through It Together and it snowed and was all pwetty and I cried.

But I don't think he has. At the time the actor was on Spooks, Strike Back and Downton simultaneously, which were pretty much the only things I was watching. It was very odd watching him in three different parts.

I loathed Lark Rise.

PurpleGeekyGirl Thu 11-Oct-12 22:24:03

I haven't seen the Xmas special but do remember the engagement being announced as that's what tipped bates's evil mrs off that she'd been had instead of selling her story.

MordionAgenos Thu 11-Oct-12 22:55:04

I doubt anything will come of Richard's desire for revenge since he is busy pining after the Khaleesi in Slavers' Bay right now. Although he will have some free time this time next year unless they change things round a bit....

It just didn't strike me as remotely believable that Mary would dump him for Matthew. It really didn't.

limitedperiodonly Fri 12-Oct-12 04:14:33

port mentalist - thanks, that's him.

Mordion - except that he turned out to be violent and controlling. Mary asked mumsnetters who told her to ltb.

Animation Fri 12-Oct-12 11:06:23

I can't imagine Richard would have let Mary get away with being such a cold fish - he would have walled her up again I'm sure. Matthew needs to handle his women better.


MordionAgenos Fri 12-Oct-12 11:09:06

Richard and Mary were very well suited. Both incredibly ruthless.

squoosh Fri 12-Oct-12 11:28:10

Sir Richard's wee was hotter than Cousin Matthew.

I miss Sir Richard and his dastardly ways.

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Oct-12 12:01:07

But Sir Richard was, or looked like he was, approaching 60 he probably couldn't've got it up either condom or not grin

PurpleGeekyGirl Fri 12-Oct-12 12:13:18

I've seen the 2011 xmas special now and all makes sense...!

LadyHarrietdeSpook Fri 12-Oct-12 12:14:14

I don't think Sir R was really Lady Mary's type at all. I see what you mean but really I think she hankers after somethin' wiiiiilllddddd. Hence Pamuk. She was definitely not thinking with her head there.

"I've seen what happiness is and I know that I won't be!"

remember, from Series 1??? How true, how true I'm thinking.

squoosh Fri 12-Oct-12 12:15:07

Sir Richard was so powerful and forceful, his magnificent member would have been far too scared to not comply.

MordionAgenos Fri 12-Oct-12 12:21:19

Approaching 60? He's 51 Now. He was 50 last year (unless something wibbly wobbly has happened). Mary doesn't deserve him anyway, he's better off with the Khaleesi (although obviously that is going to end in tears soon enough).

eatyourveg Fri 12-Oct-12 12:59:51

As I see it, its all rather simple. Mary is terrified of becoming pregnant for one of two reasons.

A) She is scared the drs would be able to tell she has already given birth so this is not her first pregnancy so scandal ensues. The Turk remember? She went off to America to stay with her granny for a while remember? I reckon she had the child in the States and had it adopted all very hush hush. Richard the baddie knows all this and is nowhere to be seen at the moment because he is he is busy tracking down the baby and plotting his revenge on Mary. In years to come the baby will come back to try and claim Downton for himself (bound to have been a boy) but thats another storyline


B) Mary is not keen to have a baby because she actually had an abortion which somehow rendered her infertile, she knows this but doesn't want to tell Matthew in case he didn't want to marry her.

Am I right or am I right?

squoosh Fri 12-Oct-12 13:07:33

Hmmm, I don't think either of those are right although both are interesting. The way I see it JF only deals with what is happening in the here and now. It's almost as if he forgets that the series used to have these other interesting characters and storylines. It's my major peeve with Downton Abbey to be honest.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that the name Pamuk will never be uttered on DA again and as for Richard he is long forgotten. It will be a fertility issue but not one related to an abortion or a hidden pregnancy.


MordionAgenos Fri 12-Oct-12 13:08:37

He may not be forgotten but since he got a better offer and is unavailable, that's that.

diddl Fri 12-Oct-12 13:19:59

When did Mary go to America?

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Oct-12 13:21:07

yes squoosh apart from the interminably depressing Bates and Anna story grin

ZZZenAgain Fri 12-Oct-12 13:25:03

some interesting ideas there. Did Mary actually leave and go to America? I thought that was the plan but then she got engaged to Matthew so it wasn't necessary.

It is funny, I have been thinking Carsen is Mary's dad throughout the whole series. But that means Carsen and Cora..... I don't know. She did say she had known she'd been married for her wealth and that Lord 6 didn't love her at first, so perhaps in those lonely days... Or is the neighbour Mary's father? Old withered arm. Is that the real reason why they didn't want him to marry Edith?

squoosh Fri 12-Oct-12 13:27:20

Bloody hell, apart from the ever rumbling on Bates saga. How could I forget!

Withered arm won't be back either, we'll not hear a peep about him ever again. Edith has bounce back marevellously well considering grin

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Oct-12 13:45:08

ZZZen those are interesting thoughts; there IS a resemblance between Mary and Carson but if that were the case she wouldn't be regarded as LADY Mary would she? unless only Carson and Cora know shock

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Oct-12 13:54:31

There's an interesting personal story about DH's GM who was bought up in a Lord's house in Cornwall and as soon as she realised she wasn't one of the actual children left the House.The mother kept contact with her sending money etc.
We've visited the place and the resemblance between DH also DS to the family in the paintings is striking. I've a theory that she was born BEFORE the parents married. Its sad 'cos she never officially knew who her parents were. we've tried local censuses etc. to no avail AFAIK she was like a ghost in the House.

ZZZenAgain Fri 12-Oct-12 14:04:55

that's strange, especially if there was a family resemblance. I presume she was conceived out of wedlock, maybe by a relation of the couple whose children she lived with. If she had been a love-child of the man of the house with a mistress, I doubt she would have been taken in.

Mary didn't get engaged to Matthew for ages, he proposed, she wouldn't give him an answer because she felt she would have to tell him about the Turkish Delight she had enjoyed previously, but there was family pressure not to tell, they dithered, WW1 broke out and off went Matt who then got engaged to Lavinia.

<<goes off and switches on LoveFilm to check>>

anonacfr Fri 12-Oct-12 15:06:14

I was hoping that Bates was guilty- there's a nasty streak about him (remember how vicious he sounded when he called his first wife a bitch last season?) and wife's friend mentioned how terrified of him wife was- she had no reason to lie to Anna.
But JF is so unbearably sentimental that he's bound to be innocent.

What was the point of Shirley McLaine btw? She was only in the show a couple of episodes and was strangely listless compared to Maggie.

And why do Thomas and O'Brien now hate each other? They used to BFF. I totally missed (or blanked) that storyline.

There was a storyline in the last series where Thomas got totally ripped off ov a load of black market food, was that when he fell out with O'Brien?

squoosh Fri 12-Oct-12 15:22:50

Did they not fallout when the footman suffering from shellshock came to Downton? O'Brien took a shine to him and Thomas bullied him. Think it was that. Can't remember what happened to that footman.

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Oct-12 16:01:30

ZZZen My theory is she was conceived by BOTH the lord and lady but before they got married so making her illegitimate because the portraits in the house were so like DH and DS who are physically and mentally extremely different.

My goodness, I was just doing a bit of googling which may or may not have been Downton related and seen a pic of Joanne Froggatt (Anna) in today's Sun, she's just got married. I really wouldn't have recognised her. Sorry can't link from phone.

PurpleGeekyGirl Fri 12-Oct-12 17:02:06

The other footman was O'Brien's nephew iirc and Thomas was jealous he was being pushed so fast to be a valet to Matthew by Carsen and O'Brien.

squoosh Fri 12-Oct-12 17:04:54

Not that footman, this footman. They fell out over him.

I think Thomas is just jealous of O'Brien's attention to her nephew (Alfred?). She was fine with Thomas until he started playing tricks on Alfred, and on her. Thomas is a right bitch.

And now it is WAR.

Love that storyline. I loved it when Moseley was asking Cora about O'Brien's replacement and Cora pretended she knew all about it. Guffaw!

Merrin Fri 12-Oct-12 17:25:07

Sounds a little like the plot of The House at Riverton ppeatfruit!

ladydayblues Fri 12-Oct-12 18:04:36

Where is Lady Rosamund? Lady Violet's daughter, Sir Richard's sister. Not seen at any of the Family weddings? Surely as an Aunt she would be present at the functions and wasnt wealthy Banker's widow now with pots of money? why didnt she come to the rescue when they so nearly lost Downton. Have I missed something or did JF fail to tie up that bit.

Lord Robert's sister you mean? I know, very dubious.

diddl Fri 12-Oct-12 18:55:32

She´s not in this series as she´s busy on stage.

ladydayblues Fri 12-Oct-12 19:17:20

Yeah Lord Robert. smile

GeorginaWorsley Fri 12-Oct-12 21:47:20

Yes Lady Rosamund's absence not adequately explained,imo.
I maintain any fertility issues Mary may have down to Pamuk.
Did they have chlamydia in 1920? grin

Moln Sat 13-Oct-12 06:03:28

Wasn't there some suggestion mary didn't have swx with Pamuk, wasn't there a "there are ways" I can't recall if it was re pregnancy or losing her virginity, there was some comment suggesting she was going sex with him so she'd still be a virgin. Unless it was about risking getting pregnant and he meant condoms or withdrwal of course.

I actually recall the comment more from it being discussed on here as there was an dicussion Mary had bum sex with him instead. Alongwith lots of rude comments!

visualarts Sat 13-Oct-12 07:19:18

Would lady ros necessarily have been expected to attend the weddings though? I remember reading once that pre 2nd half of 20th century weddings tended to be much quieter and smaller - not such major 'events' - though I don't know if that applied to the landed /titled.

Obviousy Lady Mary and Edith wouldn't have gone off to a Lyons tea room afterwards, but maybe people wouldn't normally have hiked up from London. Or perhaps lady ros just had another engagement, like a bridge afternoon! After all, Edith's was at pretty short notice.

ppeatfruit Sat 13-Oct-12 08:51:22

Merrin Tell me more ! I've never heard of The House at Riverton grin

Yes moin i remember the bxm sxx discussion it was hilarious grin

ZZZenAgain Sat 13-Oct-12 10:45:53

I like the Turkish delight! He did tell her that she would still be a virgin after he had his wicked way but whether this was a fib, we don't know. Whatever he did must have been exhausting since it did him in. I wonder at times if Mary is exhausting Matthew in a similar way, he does seem lethargic. Perhaps that is what lay behind the sleazy eye-opener honeymoon comment.

They do have a house in London. When the Lord was off to check out the troubles with his finances, Cora asked him if she should have the house in London opened. Since they never use it, they could in fact have simply sold it.

ZZZenAgain Sat 13-Oct-12 10:47:11

I'd totally forgotten that shell-shocked footman, we do leave a lot of characters by the wayside in this series

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sat 13-Oct-12 10:48:48

I remember the "there are other ways" bit but reckoned it was oral.

diddl Sat 13-Oct-12 11:13:26

Is it totally unrealistic now?

Carson asking if he should treat them equally now??!!

And Lord Twatty "oh, could you make any sense of it at all"?

Oh yes, now someone has given me money again, let´s just spend it all on staff.

No wonder he´s so careless-it´s always someone else´s money!

How embarrassing to find out that your FIL is that ridiculous-and probably your wife as well!

limitedperiodonly Sat 13-Oct-12 13:24:40

Pamuk seems to be Turkish for cotton. . I just bought a six pack of knickers and I read the back of packets when bored. They're boy pants btw which could have been what Mary was wearing to cause the misunderstanding.

limitedperiodonly Sat 13-Oct-12 13:37:47

Thanks to squoosh I've learned that obrien has a first name and isn't just O'Brien That Is Called O'Brien.

springyhope Sat 13-Oct-12 14:04:09


Merrin Sat 13-Oct-12 14:21:08

Riverton A shocking secret threatens to emerge; something history has forgotten.

Not quite the same as it involves housemaids but its not too bad a read.

squoosh Sat 13-Oct-12 14:24:58

I read Riverton, can't quite remember the shocking secret, sorry author! Her next one The Forgotten Garden (?) deals with the same subject too, illegitimate aristo babies.

I was going to say that, The Forgotten Garden is the one it reminded me of. Both very good books.

squoosh Sat 13-Oct-12 14:27:07

I'm glad O'Brien has a full name although she doesn't look like a Sarah. She looks more like a Beryl to me.

squoosh Sat 13-Oct-12 14:30:56

I enjoyed Riverton and the Forgotten Garden too, both good, page turny, country house sagas full of dark family secrets. Her third one though was awful, the Distant Hours, it was like an endurance test to finish it. I was so disappointed.

ppeatfruit Sat 13-Oct-12 14:38:12

Thanks a lot merrin it rings a bell, I think I might 've read it or seen a film/telly prog.?

limitedperiodonly Sat 13-Oct-12 14:50:37

Beryl, yes. Edna is such a surprising name for such a racy woman until I remember that Edna O'Brien's parents were desperate to oppress her in every way.

It did seem highly improbable that Pamuk, a healthy fit young man, would just die. No warning, no chest pain, no cries for help, just dead.

squoosh Sat 13-Oct-12 15:08:00

He died for being a dirty forriner who allegedly did unmentionable things to Lady Mary's bum. I'm sure JF took a very dim view of the fragrant Lady Mary being so violated by someone who wasn't C of E and didn't go to Eton.


ppeatfruit Sat 13-Oct-12 15:18:01

Well WhoKnows he knew he couldn't 've cried out could he? grin like the poor soldiers in the 1st W.W. falling to their deaths off the Alps they were 'told' not to scream 'cos the enemy would've known where the troops were shock I know not highly relevant to D.A. just one of those useless facts that fazed and sad me when I read it.

I suppose so, stiff upper lip and all that. Still pretty unbelievable. I didn't know that about the soldiers in the Alps, that's awful.

ppeatfruit my sad story is that some people hiding (from memory it was during the Civil War but might be Jews in the Third Reich) smothered their baby to prevent it from crying and revealing their position.

<wanders back to "what makes you cry" thread>

Moln Sat 13-Oct-12 16:39:30

Maybe Mary gave his such a good blow job it actually blew Pamuk's mind?

There wasn't a reason suggested was there? i don't remember one.

Davros Sat 13-Oct-12 23:16:55

Just watching gosford park, dry run for DA. Beautifully made, utter rot especially Stephen Fry's comedy copper. How JF got an Oscar for this poorly written cliched Shute is beyond me. Thoroughly enjoying it though until it gets schizophrenic over the silly murder plot

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sun 14-Oct-12 00:37:31

Nasty upsetting fact coming up: Japanese women were told to smother their babies whilst hiding in caves. Many then jumped to their deaths despite the pleas of the allied troups as they had been convinced of the evilness of western men.

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sun 14-Oct-12 17:55:17

I have a new theory.

I think that if Dan Stevens and Mary character haven't signed...what's in store is that the burn victim will reappear and EDITH will get him/be given keys to kingdom.

JF once said: I think we HAVEN'T seen the last of him.

JennaLemon Sun 14-Oct-12 19:41:27

oh that'd be funny!

I think he was a con artist though wasn't he?

JennaLemon Sun 14-Oct-12 19:42:36

btw, has anybody read Past Imperfect and snobs? my mum has them (two novels in one book). I am going to read them after DA.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:07:40

Oh no. (worried)

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sun 14-Oct-12 21:09:15

ooooh I am worried about Sybil. I hope the doctor they're bringing in knows what he's doing!

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:12:34

Mary and Cousin Matthew always act as if they've only just been introduced.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:14:07

I have already diagnosed the prob - but dont know if sir philip will be able to help if i am right.

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sun 14-Oct-12 21:14:32

Pre eclampsia?

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:17:45

Oh dear lady Sybil is in trouble. Must be "picture of health" etc.

Ah. Matthew knows his baby parts don't work.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:18:22

Could they have a bigger build up to Sibby's demise?

Oooh Cousin Matthew's worried about his middle class pecker.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:18:24

Sybil looks for the chop here sad

Matthew is going on about his swimmers now hmm

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:19:16

I have to say this sir Phillip chap seems rather sensible.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:19:44

Is sir Philip any good? I agree, very worried for sybil.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:20:37

Hooray Edith.

Either Sybil or bates is going to die. Or both.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 14-Oct-12 21:21:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:23:08

It's the Ghost Of Pamuk in her haunted vagina sad

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:23:56

Loved Mrs Crawley telling prunce faced cook that no one could possibly mistake her for a prostitute grin

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:24:16

Cross posted - yes i agree sir p seemed sensible talking to matthew.
Surely edith is going to take the job?
Ooh - is clarkson going to save syb's life?

LadyHarrietdeSpook Sun 14-Oct-12 21:24:35

I'm thinking that too...

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:26:17

And that she was a plain cook. Brilliant.

Pre-eclampsia. Clarkson will save her if this posh idiot will let him.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:27:07

Village doctor will step in to save the day.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:27:27

Ooh. Get him. Course lady Sybil doesn't have thick ankles.

I said Pre-eclampsia as soon as her ankles were mentioned. Dr Clarkson will save the lives of Sybil and offspring (boy I'm guessing) and be super hero. Sir Philip will be in disgrace.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:27:57


How dare he say that about Lady Sybil's ankles!

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:28:06

Mind you what can clarkson do about pre eclampsia?
He's worked it out....
Emergency caesarean in the 4 poster bed?

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 21:30:41

I fear for Sybil tbh
I repeat,Mary has caught something from Pamuk....

ProphetOfDoom Sun 14-Oct-12 21:30:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:31:55

As usual lord g totally useless -doesnt want to hurt sir philips feelings!

What is wrong with him?!

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:34:12

Fatty bum bum is an idiot.

Cora looks v worried.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:35:16

Thank goodness for Lady g -lets hope it's in time!

Can mrs hughes give ethel some basic cookery tips?

snice Sun 14-Oct-12 21:35:36

yes-Cora is doing her thoughtful worried face

snice Sun 14-Oct-12 21:36:31

even my DP diagnosed Sybil and he knows nothing about anything really

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:36:39

Fatty bum bum is an utter numpty.

notheroldie Sun 14-Oct-12 21:36:49

'the chauffeur' love it!

Sir Philip is a twunt

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:37:25

Take her to the hospital you idiots! (though i suppose it's true caesareans were v risky.....perhaps sir p not wholly to blame)

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:37:33

Too late

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:38:34

Take her to the bloody hospital

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:39:07

Right im never forgiving lord g-how long has syb got?

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:39:23

Uh oh, here it comes.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:39:25

Oh dear. Do you think she'll die?

ProphetOfDoom Sun 14-Oct-12 21:39:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Please don't die in your sleep now Sybs

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 21:40:50

She is going to die isn't she?

Pooka Sun 14-Oct-12 21:40:54

I think she's still in trouble. Hope not. But...

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:41:27

Yes, she'll have a stroke, I reckon.

ScorpionQueen Sun 14-Oct-12 21:41:36

Oh no, if she dies and the boring couple get her baby I'll have to stop watching, I love Sybil. sad

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:42:20

Never occurred to me he liked Sybil.

What's obrien up to?

MadamGazelleIsMyMum Sun 14-Oct-12 21:42:26

I don't think Sybil is ok at all...

DorsetKnob Sun 14-Oct-12 21:42:49

The other doctor will save her.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:43:11

death in sleep oh no, I'm a few minutes behind, watchin on digital TV

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:43:24

dying words....

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 21:43:26

I fear something tragic will happen..

I kind of want to stop watching now sad blush

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:43:29

They'll find a lovely chilly corpse in the bed in the morning.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:43:32

O'Brien is hoping Thomas will get caught with his trousers down, I reckon.

tribpot Sun 14-Oct-12 21:43:53

I'm sure she's gonna cark it after the ad break. Come on Sybil! You can pull through.

NomNomingiaDePlum Sun 14-Oct-12 21:44:17

she's a goner.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:44:59

Did they have blood pressure monitoring in the 1920s? probably not.

Is there anything clarky can do for her now?

MadamGazelleIsMyMum Sun 14-Oct-12 21:45:26

ultra definitely, she is encourageing Jimmy into an indiscretion to get some revenge on Thomas.

V worried about Sybil.

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sun 14-Oct-12 21:45:33

If they couldn't Save the woman in Call the Midwife I doubt the doctor can save Syb now.

Levantine Sun 14-Oct-12 21:45:39

She's going to die I'm sure and then Cora will be stuck with the whole dilemma of the catholic christening

Pooka Sun 14-Oct-12 21:45:44

LOrd G is a twat and so was that physician.

blisterpack Sun 14-Oct-12 21:46:02

The thing about asking Cora to fight battle for Pickle and the baby sounds ominous. Probably Sybil's last words.

Vagaceratops Sun 14-Oct-12 21:46:06

Would Pickle be allowed/want to be in the room when Sybil is in Labour?

tribpot Sun 14-Oct-12 21:46:09

If it was pre-eclampsia, she ought to be okay now the baby's been delivered? But she's clearly not right - although 'making predictions about husband's future career' is not really a medical sign of impending doom.

ScorpionQueen Sun 14-Oct-12 21:46:36

"Somebody will be born and somebody will die..." sad

Pooka Sun 14-Oct-12 21:46:40

I dont think I can watch! sad

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:47:01


squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:47:54

sad sad sad

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:48:04

ROFL at Matthew wincing down at the business end.

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 21:48:38

Oohhh Sybil sad sad

SoupDragon Sun 14-Oct-12 21:48:39


eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 21:48:56


Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:49:03

This is your fault twatty bum bum

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:49:05

Would they really have a roomful of brother-in-laws, dad etc present? It doesn't seem very realistic.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:49:06

Edith will write about her death - a feminist perspective.

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 21:49:49

I thought that UltraBOF! I didn't think even Tom would have been allowed in.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:50:07

Aw Thomas.

Levantine Sun 14-Oct-12 21:50:19

Stupid arse doctor sad

notheroldie Sun 14-Oct-12 21:50:37

best get some SMA that baby needs feeding in a minute!

tribpot Sun 14-Oct-12 21:50:48

sad sad sad

No, I very much doubt the entire upstairs cast would have been in the room.

NigellasGhost Sun 14-Oct-12 21:51:24

O'brien can be wet nurse!

Levantine Sun 14-Oct-12 21:51:32

How &#372;ILL they feed the baby?

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:51:43

How would they have fed the baby in those circumstances, a wet nurse?

Levantine Sun 14-Oct-12 21:51:52

Sorry about all those funny symbols

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:51:58

I think they would have all gone running in. I don't think that unrealistic.

dapplegrey Sun 14-Oct-12 21:52:01

Agree unlikely Tom would have been in room during labour in those days.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:52:31

Yes sleep in the dressing room twatty bum bum

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:52:39

Ah, Lady G will never forgive her twat of a husband.

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 21:53:51

Anyone else crying?

sad Oh.

jollymary Sun 14-Oct-12 21:54:08

just awful. Have been recording them for my 12 yr old DD to watch, don't think I can show her that :-( Thank God for modern maternity care.

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 21:54:09

Weeping sad

gagafan Sun 14-Oct-12 21:54:26

omg, I had pre-eclampsia and had to be delivered 3 weeks early. Thank god I wasnt born in early 1900's. How horrible.

Levantine Sun 14-Oct-12 21:54:27

Yes me sad

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:54:35

my eyes out - poor Sybil, she was my fav of the sisters.

notheroldie Sun 14-Oct-12 21:54:35

who's looking after the baby?

TigersChick Sun 14-Oct-12 21:55:13


ggirl Sun 14-Oct-12 21:55:14

arf @ doubt it

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:55:23

My baby just woken up crying, could someone kindly summarise last five minutes?

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 21:55:27

Got to love Marys honesty

notheroldie Sun 14-Oct-12 21:55:40

shame it wasn't mary

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:55:41

Yeah, you keep up the animosity up, Mary...

stinkymice Sun 14-Oct-12 21:56:19


UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:56:48

Poor ol' Branston and his ill-fitting suits...

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:56:49

What did Mary say? Anyone?

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:57:40

I did get a bit teary.

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 21:57:56

Edith asked if they would now get on and Mary said she doubted it

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 21:57:56

Mary said Sybil was the only person who thought Edith and her were nice people, Edith asked if they could get on better and she said doubt it.

TooSlowChickenMorengo Sun 14-Oct-12 21:58:10

Edith asked if they may get on better in the future.
Mary replied "I doubt it"

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 21:58:12

X post

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 21:58:12

And now i suppose lord g will try to get baby to stay at downton, without tom?
Cora to the battle!

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:58:15

Lady G blames Lord G.
Edith asked Mary if they might get along better in the future, Mary responded I doubt it but we may as well untie in our grief for the moment.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 21:58:27


squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 21:58:37

Cousin Matthew has no soul! A soul of porridge!

notheroldie Sun 14-Oct-12 21:59:02

fuck off mary. errrrr I think matthew just saved the day for lord arse-wipe so shut up

MissMogwi Sun 14-Oct-12 21:59:20

Jesus I'm bawling my eyes out. Poor Sybil.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 14-Oct-12 21:59:22

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 21:59:30

unite, not untie.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 21:59:31

Edith said "Do you think we shall get along better?" (because Sybil always thought of her sisters as good people)

Mary said, "I doubt it" <deadpan>

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 22:00:16

I'm so slow, sorry.

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 22:00:21

Poor old Dowager hobbling by herself sad

DorsetKnob Sun 14-Oct-12 22:00:49

Asking Lord G to sleep in the dressing room does not bode well.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 22:00:58

Summary of trailer pretty please?

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:01:15

At least Cora is getting some proper lines this week.

notheroldie Sun 14-Oct-12 22:01:22

Well said Cora!!!

stinkymice Sun 14-Oct-12 22:01:56

Go Cora!

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 22:02:13

What did Cora say?

coocoocawhooOOOOO Sun 14-Oct-12 22:02:47

sniff sniff......wwaaaaAAAHHHHHHHH HHH HHHHH

ggirl Sun 14-Oct-12 22:03:05

don't flirt with me robert

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 22:03:20

Did they do the funeral?

InVeryveryBadTaste Sun 14-Oct-12 22:03:28

Nnnooooooooooooooooooosadsadsadsad that was not meant to happensad

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 22:03:29

The baby doesn't have to be Catholic- it is traditional for that to go down the mother's line in the RC faith. The father wouldnt be expected to insist.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:03:57

Cora want to write to Clarkson to apologise as if they'd listened to him and not Lord Fatty and posh doctor, Sybil would still be alive.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 22:04:03

Eh? How was he flirting with her?

TigersChick Sun 14-Oct-12 22:04:06

Cora blames Lord G for Sybil's death.
Violet says that no-one is to blame.
They call the baby Sybil.
Mary tells Lord G that he's lost the debate about the Christening.
Mrs Patmore visited Ethel.

stinkymice Sun 14-Oct-12 22:05:00

Cora said that they must write to Dr and apologise for their behavior because if they had listened to him she would still be alive.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:05:12

Cora said she had to write to the Doctor to apologise, as if they had listened to him LADY sYBIL might still be alive, but instead Lord G and Sir P forced the issue of staying put and as such Sybil is dead.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 22:05:26

Mary has boundary issues - far too loyal to lord g.
Meanwhile, delighted to see mrs patmore seems to be helping ethel learn to cook next week (i hope)

DorsetKnob Sun 14-Oct-12 22:05:43

If either parent are Catholic then it is traditional for the children to be brought up Catholic.

blisterpack Sun 14-Oct-12 22:06:12

Did the actress Sybil want to leave? Wish they'd killed off someone else instead.

Except for the ghastly wig, she was the best looking of the lot too.

dapplegrey Sun 14-Oct-12 22:06:37

In fairness to Lord G, he got the grand gynaecologist from London with the best intentions.
I'm surprised such an eminent doctor had so little experience of pre-eclampsia.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:06:59

I know my great grandmother had to convert to Catholicism. There was no question her children would be anything but. This was 1890s though.

EnjoyVampirebloodResponsibly Sun 14-Oct-12 22:07:21

Cora, Edith and Carson were just excellent tonight.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:07:39

Yes I do think it is a little unfair on Lord G, he was following the advices of the more senior Doctor.

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:07:40

Oh my throat is aching. Poor Sybil. I even feel sorry for Branson.
Glad Thomas had a little comfort from Anna.
Mary is soooooo awful. Matthew should lose it with her and then she may show him some respect.

UltraBOF, depends on where Sybil and Tom married - was it a RC wedding? If so, only way a Catholic and non-Catholic could be married in a RC church is if the non-RC signs something to swear to bring up any children as RC.

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 22:08:00

I'm surprised such an eminent surgeon was do reluctant to perform a c section.

outtolunchagain Sun 14-Oct-12 22:08:20

OMG that was awful, Sybil was one of my favourite characters even is she was one of the least realistic.Sobbing heresad

At the risk of sounding old fashioned Matthew needs to remind Mary where her loyalties lie .

Pagwatch Sun 14-Oct-12 22:08:31

Oh that was so brilliant!

Great to see Maggie Smith being fab rather than endlessly waspish.

Great episode.

I kind of take the piss out of Downton as much as I enjoy it, but that was genuinely one of the most horrible deaths I've watched on any show ever. The way it seemed to happen in real time and kept cutting back to her not being able to breathe and going pale. Just awful. Spent the remainder of the episode curled up against DH <pathetic>

Still Mrs Patmores line in the "next week" preview did make me laugh.

Vagaceratops Sun 14-Oct-12 22:08:59

Oh it was awful sad

I can see tensions between Branson and LG will end up in a 1920's custody battle.

MordionAgenos Sun 14-Oct-12 22:09:11

UltraBOF Sorry you're completely wrong. If a non catholic marries a catholic they have to sign an undertaking that any children will be brought up catholic. Whether its the mother or the father who is the catholic. The maternal line thing is a Jewish rule. Not catholic at all.

NomNomingiaDePlum Sun 14-Oct-12 22:09:13

yep, if you're a catholic, you're obliged to bring up your children in the faith.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 22:09:24

Maybe I'm wrong about the Catholic line then, but that's what I thought from my upbringing. Ah well, anything that pisses Lord Fatty off is fine by me.

MaryZed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:10:05

BOF, the baby would have to be Catholic, or he would be excommunicated.

It was expected in Ireland until the 1970's.

The Irish bits are really bothering me. I'm not entirely sure of their historical accuracy, and they are unlikely at best.

SlightlySuperiorPeasant Sun 14-Oct-12 22:10:20

Aww, bawled through this episode. Poor baby doesn't even have a name yet. I can't believe the 'eminent physician' just panicked when she was fitting - with all his experience there was nothing he could do?

Chubfuddler Sun 14-Oct-12 22:10:35

Yes the death was horrible. I can't understand why the two doctors appeared to turn into pillars of salt though. Even if they knew it was useless you'd think they'd at least want to appear to be doing something - I mean hadn't CPR been invented yet?

MaryZed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:11:04

My dad had to sign in the 1960's - or else he couldn't marry my mum.

My brother was asked to sign in the 1980's but fudged it a bit.

sad so sad. Why Sybil?

Lord G was to blame. angry

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:11:09

LittleWhiteWolf me too, it was way more harrowing than I thought it would be shown. I thought it would be 'oh I feel a bit unwell, faints, dies'.


hugoagogo Sun 14-Oct-12 22:11:38

Cor! my Mum had eclampsia; hence me being 7 weeks early.

I never had any idea what it was like before.

I kind of wish I still didn't. sad

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:12:15

My non catholic mother had to convert or agree to bring children up as catholics even in 1960's.Tom would have to have baby baptised catholic oer he would be in breach of his faith,for want of better phrase.
Loved Downton tonight,despite my tears!

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:12:29

Mary is doing my nut in, she is just stomping around the place trying to police everyone.

I think given a death occured Mathew and the Lawyer could have taken their conversation outside (stroll) to ensure fulll privacy, or at the very least have kept an eye on the door.

blisterpack Sun 14-Oct-12 22:12:33

Slightly it looks like the baby will be called Sybil.

Pagwatch Sun 14-Oct-12 22:12:50

Yep.i am RC, dh is not.
Dh had to promised raise the children as RC.


DP reckons pickle will do a runner with the baby.

The baby is called Sybil. It was in the trailer.

MordionAgenos Sun 14-Oct-12 22:13:00

And my DH had to sign in 1997. And people marrying Catholics have to sign today. I can't see that ever changing.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 14-Oct-12 22:13:49

God that was heartbreaking. She was my favourite sad

Vagaceratops Sun 14-Oct-12 22:14:54

Thats what I think wannabe

I just cant see the baby being wound into the story really.

Unless they get a hot nanny a la Friends grin

dementedma Sun 14-Oct-12 22:15:17

Oooh that was a good episode!

My sister had a DD this morning and that made me a bit teary sad

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:15:25

Poor Pickle and little Picalilli in the window at the end.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 14-Oct-12 22:15:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:16:34

Picle can't do a runner, who will feed the baby, baby Sybil needs a wet nurse.

JennaLemon Sun 14-Oct-12 22:17:13

thE CHUrch of Ireland church near me is stuffed full of 'mixed' couples who refuse to be told how to raise their kids. I don't know how to spell it but it's called the nei temerei

Vagaceratops Sun 14-Oct-12 22:17:41

He ownt care - he is a hothead.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:18:15

Jim (new Butler) might start flirting witht he kitchen maid in order to throw Thomas off. This will drive Daisy mad.

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:18:23

blood pressure would have been sky high,causing the fits and death.
Still dangerous today.
I nearly died at DC4's birth following massive haemmorrhage,death in childbirth still occurs,unfortunately sad

LadySybildeChocolate Sun 14-Oct-12 22:18:57

Ds has said I need a new mumsnet name now sad Why on earth did no one do anything? I also through that pre eclampsia was 'healed' once the baby had been delivered? confused

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:20:03

Well it's not something that's really enforceable in this day and age and probably wasn't enforcable in England ever, living in Ireland in the 20s however would have been a different matter.

Or Mary and Matthew will bring it up as theirs?

But then that can they conceive storyline would become a bit insignificant.

visualarts Sun 14-Oct-12 22:20:13

Yes i thought it was odd that both docs just gave up completely - couldn't they have tried to clear an air way or something?

Unfortunately im afraid the ultra reasonable poster who thought lord g was not really to blame may have a point - he was just relying on the expert, much as i dislike lord g usually. Though didn't he say something Really awful like branson wasn't the one who was paying for sir philip? And anyway, it was obvious to all of us that sir philip was wrong - cora knew as well! So lord g should have been able to tell...

Eclampsia and pre-eclampsia are still little understood in real terms.

Once you move from pre-eclampsia to full blown fitting (eclampsia), there is absolutely no treatment. The same is true today.

MIL went for her 31wk appointment when pg with DH and ended up being bluelighted to London and having an emcs at St Thomas'. FIL was told to expect to lose both of them. She was severely ill and probably less than an hour away from developing full blown eclampsia.

Davros Sun 14-Oct-12 22:20:38

Church of reland is Protestant isn't it?

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:20:40

Yes, your name is now in bad taste, sorry. Poor, poor Sybil and poor Tom.

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:21:18

Not enforcable by law obviously but Catholic church very good at guilt trips

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 22:22:02

I think Mary and Matthew would only want the baby if it was a boy

zgaze Sun 14-Oct-12 22:22:15

Surely Mary & Cousin Matthew will try to take the baby off the chauffeur and bring it up otherwise what's the point of that infertility storyline?

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:22:54

Don't I know it Georgina! grin

zgaze Sun 14-Oct-12 22:22:54

Oh x post with everyone grin

Yes Davros it is.

Dr clarkson knew she wasnt herself though. How could a stranger determine that? They should have listened to the doc that knew her all her life.

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:23:39

Mary will probably put the baby in training as her new ladies maid.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:23:44

There will be some heated custody storyline alright.

Angelico Sun 14-Oct-12 22:24:00

I really didn't see that coming! sad Thought Pickle would get killed doing something rebel-ly! shock Agree about him doing a runner with the bambino.

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:24:10

If I must.

Surely they could have done CPR?

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:24:18

From inheritance point of view baby could't be Mary and Matthew's.They need boy of their own.
They've only been married a few months though !

Visitor57 Sun 14-Oct-12 22:25:05

Part of the catholic wedding service requires a promise that the couple accept the children God sends and that any such children will be brought up in accordance with the law of Christ and his Church. I imagine Branson expects the baby to take his name and follow his religion.

I've read both Past Imperfect and Snobs (bought the two novels in one in a shop abroad - only english book in the place). They weren't very good. Very similar themes/characters. It probably wasn't a good idea to read both together but my options were limited (pre-Kindle days). I hadn'tt watched DA at this stage - only started with the box set of series 1 last year.

I was a little surprised that Sybil was killed off, I'd have preferred her husband, Bates, or Mary to disappear.

I hope the canadian returns as the long-lost heir, can you imagine Mary's face!!

Northernlurkerisbehindyouboo Sun 14-Oct-12 22:25:14

I thought that was heartbreaking. Really by the time Dr Clarkson was detecting problems it was already too late for Sybil. The feminists of the 1920s had a slogan 'Having a baby is 17 times more dangerous than being a miner and mining is men's most dangerous work'. Not catchy but sums up this scale of tragedy.
Women in the UK today should not ever die from eclampsia. In living memory it was very different. That's worth remembering.

Dd1 and I have sobbed horribly and I've deleted the episode straight away from the planner. That death scene was unbearable.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 14-Oct-12 22:25:47

I love Pickles, feck you all.

He is easily the best looking man in the cast.

And God, he really loved her.

I think actually there will not be too much disagreement over the baby, because I think Lord Fatty Fuckhead 6 will be too cowed to make a fuss and Cora is firmly in Team Pickles now.

Moln Sun 14-Oct-12 22:26:41

Yes Church of Ireland is Protestant.

MaryZed what Irish bits are you unsure of? (apart from the issue of Branston ever going over to Britian and getting a doff your hat to aristo's job?)

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 22:26:55

Yes, you can't not be married in Catholic church and have non-Catholic babies.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:27:19

I presume the actress who played Sybil asked to be released from her contract rather than was told she was being killed off. As DA is sooo big in America I'd imagine a few of them have had some tempting offers.

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:27:27

Wonder what would happen to Matthew's money if Canadian heir reappears?
Also,Isabel should have been there at birth,she qould have sorted the emminent DR out alright

kerpob Sun 14-Oct-12 22:28:35

Tom will marry Edith and bring up baby Sybil!!!

JennaLemon Sun 14-Oct-12 22:29:35

she looks like that girl michelle ryan who used to be on eastenders. she went to hollywood as well i think.

squoosh Sun 14-Oct-12 22:29:47

I've been unimpressed with the way they've dealt with the Irish issue. They should have just left it out rather than shoe horning it in without examining it properly.

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 22:29:59

I hope Edith and Isobel join forces to campaign for women's health etc. Because whatsherface will turn out to have syphillis or something.

jollymary Sun 14-Oct-12 22:30:33

have deleted it from planner straight away too. Genuinely traumatised by the realism of death scene, especially as used to lack of reality on DA usually!
Have taken to drink :-(

tribpot Sun 14-Oct-12 22:31:18

Yes, I also thought it was strange they didn't send for Isabel, who's noted for her powers of wimmin's medicine. Odd, surely, for Lord Tosspot 6 to take the lead on medical decisions about childbirth? I would have thought Cora would have taken control of the situation - and if not her, Violet.

LadyMaryCreepyCrawley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:31:32

Who's whatsherface?

ditzydrawers Sun 14-Oct-12 22:31:34

What happened tonight on Downton happened to my granny's sister sixty years ago. Same age as Lady Sybil was. It has always struck me as utterly tragic but that scene really hit home to me what a terrible death it ws. So upsetting and awful.

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:31:37

Yes yes,I keep harping on about Mary having some disease from dead Turk.

Moln Sun 14-Oct-12 22:32:06

I did like though how the showed how much tom loved sybil

Annunziata Sun 14-Oct-12 22:32:10

The prostitute. Red haired girl. Not Mary but that would be shock

tribpot Sun 14-Oct-12 22:32:19

ditzy - how dreadful sad sad

MaryZed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:33:00

Well, Moln, there is absolutely no way they would forgive an Irish "terrorist" and welcome him into the family. Much less got the Government to let him stay in Downton.

Also, what year is it? Because the war of independence was pretty much over by 1921, and the Irish were fighting each other not the British by then.

And it's all a bit simplistic. It just doesn't ring true.

But then, the way they talk to their servants and allow opinions doesn't really ring true either, so calling a chauffeur Tom isn't much stranger than that.

I'm just a bit disillusioned. There are more interesting social changes going on in Britain rather than just wheeling out the "Irish question" half-heartedly.

UltraBOF Sun 14-Oct-12 22:34:06

Yes, I've seen Jessica Findlay Brown in a cracking film- cant remember what it was called though. And she was in one of Charlie Brooker's things. I bet she'll go stratospheric in America, they love that English Rose kind of beauty, and she's very talented. Might even knock ol' Chinny Knightly off her perch...

MaryZed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:34:09

Or what squoosh said, much more succinctly.

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:34:29

No no,great episode.
Tragic but great.
I will not hear anything else.grin

jollymary Sun 14-Oct-12 22:36:05

Was high in quality, agree, Georgina, just v upsetting. Too well scripted and acted!!

GeorginaWorsley Sun 14-Oct-12 22:36:43

Best of this series by far.

jollymary Sun 14-Oct-12 22:38:32

Just don't feel I could care less about Bates blah blah jail blah etc. anymore now lovely Sybil is no more.....

MaryZed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:38:42

Yes, just checked. The truce in the Irish War of Independence was July 1921.

This series of Downton Abbey started mid-1920, and surely a year has gone by (two weddings and a full pregnancy)?

I think they are trying to stuff in a bit of action on the side, but are muddling it a bit. The Catholic question, though, will be a biggie.

It kind of makes it more shocking, I think, being Downton, which is normally pretty unrealistic and silly. I'm glad its not just me who's been seriously affected by the death scene. It seemed to take forever and be over so quickly and for me who had no clue Sybil was being killed off, it was totally out of the blue.

They really brought out the big guns in this episode. Cora broke my heart; so nice to see the actress (who's name I forget) actually being challenged and doing so well.

Hope Edith does use this tragedy to start campaigning for womens health rights and such like.

Northernlurkerisbehindyouboo Sun 14-Oct-12 22:40:10

I though Maggie Smith was marvellous.

ditzydrawers Sun 14-Oct-12 22:40:31

I know tribpot. Just so sad. Lady Cora's goodbye scene was heartbreaking too.

Felicitywascold Sun 14-Oct-12 22:40:55


Just finished the ep (delayed start). So so sad. Horrific death.

IAmSheWhoMustBeObeyed Sun 14-Oct-12 22:41:09

I feel that the baby thought christened RK will stay at Downton. After all how could a wanted terrorist keep a young child with him on the run. Branson will escape back to Ireland and continue to fight politically or go to America to raise funds and awareness.
Later he will re marry and take Sybil into his new family.
Or he will be killed.

ditzydrawers Sun 14-Oct-12 22:42:18

Also totally sick of Bates storyline.....just get it over with!

Mollydoggerson Sun 14-Oct-12 22:43:07

I agree Ethel will have some disease, and there will be a big divide between who speak to her and who don't.

By the way what about the hand holding between Carson and Mrs Hughes.

Northernlurker yes, Maggie Smith was brilliant. I'd stopped crying, but when she was speaking to Carson and stopped to gather her emotions and hobble on I lost it again. sad

Moln Sun 14-Oct-12 22:44:57

Oh right - well yes their acceptance of Tom is along the lines of their relationship with their sevants MaryZed. His being there in the first place is unbeliveable as it is.

ii think it's 1920.

Why is Lord G being called Lord 6 on here? Cant work it out.

Visitor57 Sun 14-Oct-12 22:45:38

I loved series one, tolerated series two but this one is tedious to say the least.

I think I'm only watching it so I know what you are talking about on this thread!

eatingrottenapples Sun 14-Oct-12 22:45:54

Did anyone know she was going to die? Best kept secret ever

MordionAgenos Sun 14-Oct-12 22:46:46

@moln plenty of Irish people came over the water and got a doff your hat to the artistos job. Especially if they were running away. My grandparents for example. But Pickle's situation does seem atypical since he was able to go back with no trouble and get involved in politics again.