Mumsnet Talk

Also admiration and swooning. If you haven't watched all 7 seasons, read no further!

Two Cathedrals - have watched it several times and only just realised last night that Mrs Landingham was driving back to the WH as Bartlet wanted to tell her about the MS.

I love the scenes with young Mrs L and Jed.

Why "two" cathedrals though?

I always assumed that it was the national cathedral where the funeral service was held and the White House ie a cathedral of politics.

One of my favourite all-time WW episodes.

Ooo, a new WW thread.

[pulls up a chair]

I cried when she died

Other favourite episode is when he had to choose a turkey.

I thought it was a connection with the chapel that his father had found the cigarette butt in, and then he did the same thing in the present ifswim.

The part when he walks through the office to the press conference and brothers in arms begins and they all follow him puts shivers down my spine.

Ooh ooh can I join in???

I always thought two cathedrals was about Jed's struggle between his faith and politics. And remember it was all caught up in the lying about the MS.

(gets DVDS off shelf....might be up a bit late)

Do you know that a friend asked me if she could borrow them recently.

Ahem, no.

Yes, Brothers in Arms music does something to me.

I the episode when CJ geets all angry about the treatment of women in Quatari and shouts at Toby.

I lent my boxset to a woman at work who was off for months recuperating from an operation. She had never seen a single episode before and watched the whole damn lot during her absence.

My good deed for the, well lifetime really.

CJ, quite simply, rocks

And of course she can do "The Jackal"

Or the episode where she tells the press room about the 12 year old girls who weren't rescued from a fire as they weren't properly attired and ends by saying "but that Saudi Arabia, our partners in peace"

Or Glenn Close as Chief Justice.

My favourite scene ever is when Josh hears that Amy has been made FLOTUS 's Chief of Staff. I heart Bradley Whitford.

The Supremes is quite possibility my favourite episode, but then again I love so many of them!

Yama you are a better person than I am.

I'm currently 28 weeks pregnant. The first 12 weeks were a little nervy and honestly I don't know I'd have got through it without The West Wing.

The Jackal!! Allison Janney is actually one of the coolest people on the planet.

No no no, 'Evidence of Things Not Seen' s the best - CJ standing the egg on its end at the vernal equinox.

I am so envious of people who haven't seen the west wing yet.

My daughters will have weird Pavlovian responses when they are older to the theme music. Long nights of me, baby, breast feeding and da de daaah de da de daaaah....

Let's be honest though, trying to pick your favourite WE episode is like trying to pick a favourite child!

WW obv!

[facepalm]

Why can't they bring it back. Make more. I need more. I have seen each episode about six times I think. It is ALL I watch really

Can you imagine discovering it for the first time again! I still remember watching the first ever one and calling my Dad in Dublin all excited and him telling me, "Love, it's been on Irish TV for six months!" WELL WHY HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT THEN!

I thought this thread was going to be actual WW trivia, like a quiz of sorts. Can we do that please?

I'll start....

To what was Ainsley Hayes referring when she said...'talk about your chickens coming home to roost'?

Cristiane it's the only thing worth watching.

I actually sit at work sometimes thinking WWLD.

(shuffles off.....worries she might have revealed too much)

It has got to the point I can now speak the dialogue from certain episodes.
I love it, love it, love it. Currently approaching mid point of season three in my 9 millionth re viewing of episodes.

Was it Sam and his work to protect the oil tanker before he went to work for Bartlett?

Beginnings I do that too!

Gand what was Ainsley referring to... Something about education?

C'rect thelennox now you have to come up with a question!

Thelennox I think you are right!

Oh I LOVE you for this. Real, true, meaningful love .

2 cathedrals - church vs state. Bartlet's Catholicism vs his duties as a President.

Thelennox beat me to it! The tanker broke its anchor off the Maryland coast after the steering failed and it was the one that Sam had been buying in the episode where Josh came to tell him to work on Bartlet for America.

My 13 year old DS2 is a recent convert. I say recent, but he's already watched all the seasons twice. And it's given us so much to talk about, so many things to discuss - and let's face it, a 45 year old woman doesn't really have much in common with a 13 year old boy. It's been great for us. I know he wishes he was Sam because at his parent's evening his English teacher said "apparently DS2 wants to be a speechwriter" .

Ok, ok.
Which country did Will Sawyer get kicked out of which meant he had to return to the white house press room?

Or to keep the Ainsley Hayes thing going ...
Where is she working when she asks CJ for a job in the Santos administration?

Thailand
(I've cheated)

OK, Myanmar, I think, and also the Hoover Institute, where she had been only 2 weeks I think?

D

The Hoover institute! In answer to the ainsley question. And she doesn't like it

Correct! Whose next?
This is so much fun, dh will get no conversation with me now!

Deliaskis again as she got both. I could remember somewhere in Asia but couldn't get further than that.

Who says to Will...'It seems I'm not done with the Baileys' (in a fabulous tone of voice, which I have often wished to be able to emulate(.

Sam?

Is it arnie vinick?

That General who was about to say something nasty about the President on his retirement??

Nope Cristiane , but on consideration, it's not necessary to get the actual name, as it was a bit obscure, but the scene/context.

Someone military - someone who knew his father in Brussels?

No and No lennox and beginnings

Clue

'Dramatically?'

'well, I like to think I have a certain flare'

Some bigwig guy who has just discovered Will is the son of his old enemy, Supreme Commander of NATO or somesuch (although he thought he was the grnadson - Will appears to have been a surprise baby).

When Will is working on the foreign policy bit of the State of the Union.

Oh yes that's it, yes the republican general

Getting close Hassled

Oh oh is it that guy Bryce ?

I am getting so old that I can't remember this stuff properly

Ps thanks celestial!

Yes Celestial

Your go Celestial!

Should have said well done celestial but the iPad chose to write thanks. I am being taken over by machines!

Which 2 members of Martin Sheen's real life family feature in the WW?

One was Emilio estevez but don't know the other.

One was Emilio yes. The other one is female and was in quite a lot of episodes, in a small role, all the way through to the end.

Renee Estevez. She played the blonde secretary "Nancy"

Cool.

Hmm, will steal that question for next time me and my brother are quizzing!

Ah yes, Nancy, because in the very last eipsode, Jed says to Nancy...'tell your mother I'm looking forward to seeing her soon', and it was kind of an in joke.

Emilio was in the video as young Jed with baby Zoe wasn't he?

And of course in the final ep Martin El Presidente says to Nancy "please tell your mother [i.e. his wife] I look forward to seeing more of her soon". Nice!

We're all such nerds!

I love it!

CaveMum next question...

I missed Emilio the first few times as I was all misty eyed over Toby and his "babies come with hats" speech, and never took in who was playing Bartlett on the home movie footage.

The WW is definately a refuge for nerds!

But nerds of such a high calibre!

Exactly Thelennox. Some of the smartest nerds I know are ww fans

And a wide vocabulary

Ooo I never knew that about Emilio. I've loved Emilio since The Breakfast Club - how could I have failed to spot him?

Ok, according to Jed Bartlett, what are the three words in the English language beginning with "dw"?

[im aware there are more words in the dictionary, but we're going with what Jed says!]

Dwarf dwindle and dwell!

Josh : "You're quite a nerd Mr. President "

Wow that was fast beginnings!

Do you recall which fruit had its seeds on the outside too?!

Strawberry

God I need a life

Strawberry!

Strawberry!

Your go Beginnings!

Hassled, it's very quick in grainy old footage playing on a telly in the corner of a room, he's not wearing a big hat saying "look at meee, it's Emilio here!" so don't worry

Just so Mumsnet doesn't get sued, CJ was referring to the women of Kumar, not Qatar. That said, she does refer to Saudi Arabia, 'our partners in peace'.

A contextual one

About what was Leo right?

LOL at all the strawberries.

No-one can say the WW did not educate us..

Everything?

Yes, they were pretty brave re Saudi, weren't they? CJ was amazing in that scene.

I wish I could come up with a question. I'm tempted to get DS2 up - he'd know what to ask.

Which track is playing when Simon is shot?

Leo was always right.

When was Leo ever wrong?

Hallelujah

Well obviously celestial but I'm thinking of something specific.

Hallelujah. It makes me think of that scene, and cry, whenever I hear it

Oh no ds crying? Will have to forego my pleasure a little while? Enjoy folks!

Also he was right when he had Sam and Josh tailed "on the offchance that You're as stupid as you look!"

Was it about CJ being ready to be COS?

beginnings Leo was right, about Toby loving his kids, it's a mortal lock...

lennox it's Halleluia

OK, my last question before I go to sleep...

Who sings ...'For once in my life, I got someone who needs me...'

And why/where?

D

Nope and nope celestial and cavemum. Celestial it has a connection to babies coming with hats

OK, that was a bit presumptious of me, to ask the question, but I think I was right re Leo?

Night night, enjoy...

It did gall me that CJ couldn't have a bit of personal happiness for more than 3 minutes before she lost him. Also I loved Mark Harmon.

Easy! It was Annabeth who had just seen Stevie Wonder at one of the Santos rallies

Deliaskis I knew you'd get it!

Ah! when Toby tells him he was right, in a moment amongst the madness of the kidnapping night? Actually that was lovely.

I haven't watched the whole run for about 2 years, so I'm just going to sit and marvel at your knowledge of all trivia.

I'm rewatching though, since I've found myself with a bit of time on my hands and had got to Dwarf Dwindle and Dwell!

CJ's jackal is awesome. I want to be her! In fact, I'm trying to work out how I can dupe DH into accepting CJ initials if ever we have another girl

Such a lovely scene celestial. Cheesy but really good.

Your go cavemum! And then I really need to go to bed.

That part was sad, because all the women were murmuring about her and Leo being together, and we knew John Spencer had died.

It does make you cry quite often, the WW.

Oh lord [struggles to think of another question]

[resorts to Google]

What did Bartlett do in both the first and last episodes of WW?

Gosh. Quote from scripture??

Fly on Airforce One? (or would Santos let him borrow it to get home?)

Oh he did that a lot, but that's not what I'm looking for.

Forgive a member of staff (mind you, he had to do that a lot too..)

Walk with a stick?

Walk with a stick?

What name did Abby and Jed call their future son in law?

Here's a clue: it is something specific when we first see him in Ep1.

smoke a cigarette?

thelennox gets it, but only by 4 seconds

Why did Ainsley go back to the mess?

Oh you lot are making me feel all nostalgic, last time I did a run of WW was a few years ago when my ex had the boxset! I am ready to start over, have just ordered the season 1 boxset off play.com.

I felt so sad and empty when it ended though, like the death of several friends! Also I remember seeing Bradley Whitford on a chat show and feeling a little disappointed - he wasn't half as intelligent, witty and loveable as Josh!

Allison Janney however is just as amazing as CJ imo.

Wear that awful track suit top with the seal of the president on it?

Walk with a cane? He'd cycled into a tree in ep 1

To get a doughnut. Ainsley that is. I think

That is truly terrible whethergirl, did you lose the entire boxset in a divorce settlement?

whethergirl, you can't buy the box sets one season at a time, then you have to wait for the next one to arrive before getting your next fix (Plus they come in a very natty slimline set now).

Beginngs try sgain

the pastry chef was still on into the early hours, according to Sam

Cheesecake

And it's only £45 on amazon (as I kindly informed the friend who tried to borrow it)

Try that again, beginnings

And btw that tracksuit truly was dreadful. When he, Debbie and Charlie have had 'the full Silkwood'* in No Exit I think it is truly beyond the pale they then have to done the dreaded Presidential tracksuit.

* this is a quote from which other Sorkin TV show?

Pie, it was a piece of pie!!

Celestial reminded me with the cheesecake

Nope celestial

Also the boxset works out much cheaper in the end.

Ainsley: "I think that I saw there a muffin"?

sigh I know Celstia, but it was his box set. I even stayed with him an extra few weeks so I could to see the last 5 episodes.

tribpot - I know but it's about £45 quid, which although is worth every penny, I just can't afford right now.

Because, I think I may have seen there, a .....

at beginnings kindly informing her friend of where to purchase it (I shouldve stuck to that too- am still one season short from friend who lost it...)

And Celestial is your "friend" short of a limb???

The libraries tend to have each season - i would just go ahead and reserve them though, as they're rarely on the shelf if you just go in.

She let it on to someone who lent it on etc. V V bad breach of borrowing etiquette I feel. Season 3 it was. I mean, it was a Sorkin-written season and all.

<a little late to the party> There's a West Wing thread?! Ah, I am home

I saw John Spencer in a lift once. I thought it a testament to the man's acting that I believed, for a nano-second, that I was in a lift with the real live Chief of Staff and not some actor.

I bought my DH a t-shirt which says "let me absolutely clear, I did not do that..." on the front and "... except yes, I did that" on the back. We are WW geeks.

Ainsley and her sodding muffins. It would grate on me slightly that she would eat muffins all day and still be so teeny tiny. With that squeaky voice of hers.

But love the one where she gets bullied and Sam Seaborn steps in like a true gent and hero.

Celestial, I've been down that road with Lovefilm. Tried to get rent out the dvds in order but could never do it as some other nerd always had the one I wanted which meant I had to either wait or watch out of sequence.....nope, it's time I owned my own set.

That sounds like an excellent t-shirt Twiglet.

Do you stand beside him in one that says "I had Woot Canawl!" when he wears that?

Twiglets, loving the t-shirt.

Celestial, brilliant.

Sam did annoy me by telling ainsley she'd make "A good dog break it's leash" though. So unSam.

Did you know originally the show was supposed to have Rob Lowe as the main character and that he left as he wasn't getting enough screen time?

Its NOT a muffin?

I thought this was a proper Mastermindy quiz.

What was the son in laws nickname?

And you're kidding about Sam, remember Lori?

And originally they offered the part of Sam to Bradley Whitford? Mind boggles. (despite Sorkin writing Josh for him).

Its funny watching the first few episodes when you can see they had a slightly different vision for the show, before it settled in.

They never thought Martin Sheen would want to be such a regular character as he turned into but he was thrilled with the part - now there's a humble man.

Yes but he didn't know about her profession when they first got together and then he saw her as someone he could save which IS same.

It was a peach!

Sam, not same obviously.

And I don't know why I just remembered the peach

Mind you they had Janelle Maloney audition for CJ which is hard to imagine now too. The only mistake they actually made in the end with the initial cast was Mandy...

A peach! well done!

God Mandy was awful. I didn't know that about Janelle Moloney! Has she done anything since?

A peach, yes of course!

Is no-one taking the Silkwood bait?

He LOVED the fact Lori was a bad girl. That's why Malory was always going to tank.

Anyhoo, you're still avoiding the SIL question.

Another one: what does Amy embrace?

I think she pops up as a guest in various american dramas but also theatre.
I was amazed when she popped up in an old episode of ER but that would have been pre WW. Richard Schieff plays a patient who has issues with hypersexuality and baldness and Mrs L pops up as a patient too.

ER must be like Casualty for american actors.

But Bradley Whitford plays the husband in what I thought was the best ever episode of ER - Loves Labour Lost

Tribpot is that something from Studio60? I don't have satellite so never got into it?

And an easy one, what's the name of the theme time composer NO GOOGLING!!!!

Its Beginnings turn to ask a question though, responsibly!

As she got the last one correct!

Snuffy. Always hope thats a nickname..

Only when led by the hand

Nearly Celestial. Try harder.

I can't remember the son in laws nickname and it's really annoying me!!

Have to go to bed now....

I'll post I'd I remember in the middle of the night.

The fruit fly guy xxxxx

beginnings - it is. Studio 60 was good (and if you <cough> look around on YouTube you can find virtually the whole series </cough>) but highly confusing - Bradley Whitfield plays a character called Danny, Timothy Busfield (Danny) plays a character not called Danny, Matthew Perry fortunately is called neither Chandler nor Joe Quincy, Allison Janney plays herself in one hilarious episode, and Sarah Paulson plays a character based on Kristen Chenoweth (Annabeth Schott "bang bang").

Sorkin might as well just have put himself in it as a cunningly disguised screenwriter called Baron Corkin.

You lot were busy! <shakes fist at RL>

Got most answers right - but am also stumped on the son-in-law.

I liked the way Ainsley ate what she wanted without any of that "Oh mustn't" rubbish. To Sam, "Did you bring your lunch from home? I brought my lunch from home. I ate it already." "I want to be on that team - they have the Kung Pau (?) chicken."

I did think of this thread as also being a great quiz opportunity.

Here's one: what are you not allowed to do in Indiana but are positively encouraged to do in New Jersey?

Son-in-law = Doug or the fruit-fly one Ellie married? I read the question as a nickname for Doug, Jed and Abby clearly didn't think much of him.

Celestial, you are my favourite episode, btw If ever DH and I are driving around trying to find a place and then find we always have to say "or we could just pull in AT the Westley police station..."

Tribpot, LOL @ Baron Corkin The Danny thing always used to confuse me with Sunset 60 too.

Have you seen Brad Whitfield lately? I used to have a huge teensy crush on him but now he looks like Des Lynam!

Composer = W G Snuffy Walden, or similar.

And I didn't have to Google - its just one of those names you remember!

Just sliding in here,

Any ww threads give me a warm glow

Every time dh and I watch another season, there's at least one episode where I think 'hmm, must have missed that particularly brilliant one last time around'

I always think I prefer the older episodes, til I get on to the newest ones and they're just so damned clever!

Donna still irritates me though. Sorry

My question again, in case in got lost in my drivel post:

What are you not allowed to do in Indiana but are positively encouraged to do in New Jersey?

Fiderer, is it simply 'talk like that', in reference to Josh telling the congressman to shove his legislative agenda up his ass? (And cue the utterly hilarious 'victory is mine, victory is mine, great day in the morning people, victory is mine' speech).

The son-in-law's nickname - presumably we are talking about Doug, as poor old Fruit Fly Guy never really makes an impression.

Can't remember Doug's nickname but I always at the episode where CJ and Kate Harper plot to set Special Ops on him: "Make him look like a tragedy she can cry over."

tribpot - yes I like Ginger and Bonnie.

The "Victory is mine ... drinking from the keg of glory" speech was in an earlier episode (Post Hoc Propter Hoc I think) when he trumped Mandy, wasn't it? Because he somehow got HR (I assume) 443, whatever it was, to stay in committee until after the mid-terms.

She knew they'd be gloating in the WW. God she was annoying. Considering there was pretty near perfect casting for 7 seasons, odd that she was so wrong.

I am studiously avoiding doing anything this morning apart from posting on here!

I wonder if Mandy just seemed so wrong because she was axed without any real conclusion to her story. I found her extremely irritating and I didn't really understand what she was there for (sort of spin doctor? But wanted to do work for a Republican candidate as well?) but she might not seem so jarring if she had actually been written out.

Celestial, you're my favourite episode too! I just love Sam when he's being all huffy at the desk sergeant

I can't recall the Indiana/ new jersey question.....?

Here's a trivia fact ( sorry if it was said upthread) - W Snuffy Walden also did the music for Thirty Something - also starring Danny ( real name escapes me momentarily) and Senator Rafferty ( Mel Harris / Hope) who Toby puts into the race against Santos

Ooh, I see the answer now!

I think 'victory is mine' speech is in a Mandy epi, too. Thank heavens there aren't too many of those.

Also, talking of characters that didn't stay the course. Whatever happened to Angela, who was brought into negotiate the budget after Josh did something bad (like losing Tom Skerrit to the Republicans)? (Cue Leo's great line 'I should take you out behind the shed and whack you with apiece of 2 by 4')

Danny is Timothy Busfield of course! smug look on answering own question

I tried thinking more magnanimously about her character on re-watches of S1 but she does jar. Her "I've got a PhD and I'm cute" speech is one I always skip over.

Re the lack of conclusion, I wonder if as Aaron Sorkin saw the character wasn't working out, she just had fewer storylines and therefore we never saw her on TV shows or any results of her allegedly wonderful media consultancy skills.

Do love the scene where Josh tells her to go to Toby about the panda bears and Toby is still happy after his Day of Jubilee (Mendoza). There's a lot of silliness about the names, Dim Sum/Lum Lum/Ping/Ling then Toby loses his happy glow and says:
"Then get us two regular bears, a bucket of black paint, a bucket of white
paint, bam, bam, next case."

Yes, the writing was brilliant even in the early days.

I thought I heard that the rest of the cast simply didn't get on with the actress and the cast dynamic wasn't right so she simply didn't get her contract renewed? Seems unlikely tho as in a cast that huge with so many great names there's bound to be someone who doent play well with the other children and so you'd expect they'd just get on with it?

"2 cathedrals - church vs state. Bartlet's Catholicism vs his duties as a President." Thunk - see that now, thanks Hassled. How wonderful that your ds wants to be Sam a speechwriter.

You may have to keep him away from that OlivaMN when he's older. Surprised she hasn't posted. Always thought she has a red buzzer going off in MNTowers when The West Wing is mentioned

gettingalife - I wondered that too.

I was watching the "Manchester" episode in the barn last night. Bruno (prefer his hair longer) Gianelli, "We will work hard. We will work well. We will work together. Or so help me, mother of God, I will stick a pitchfork so far up your asses, you will, quite simply, be dead."

I have to go to work now, and instead of thinking "WWLD?", I'm going to repeat that.
Often.

Morning, Fiderer

Don't you go singing "The Jackal", CJ, or I'll be late for work.

I have emails to send regarding the daily Senior Staff meeting.

<am going to spend the whole day now wondering how I can introduce that at work>

Ahhhh this thread is just fabulous. Making me all nostalgic. Want to go and watch them all again from the beginning now. May have to invent phony excuse and leave work.

Too many favourite bits to list. Josh being an 'outdoorsman' when they are all sitting on the steps in second series after shooting for some reason has been in my head for a few days.

The "bam bam, next case" thing was utterly brilliant. And the pitchfork quote - it really does put the incongruous nature of Mandy's lines into perspective "I could kill you with my shoe" - errr, what?? I think maybe that was her problem, they could never find quite the right one-liners for her, and you can't be a proper West Wing star without one-liners.

I was laughing this morning at one of my favourite bits from The American President (filmic forerunner to TWW) where Michael J Fox goes apeshit at someone who has decide to vote against them on an important piece of legislation and ends up shouting at him and slamming the phone down on him. He says "Jarret's a no" and Leon Kodak (a sort of proto-Toby type) says "Well I hope so. Because if that was an 'undecided' we need to work on our people skills". Classic.

Morning, only just got back to computer, what's the current question, or are we just being generally adoring of all things WW, rather than doing questions?

D

I think we still haven't answered the question of Doug's nickname have we? Unless it's 'Doug' because he's too dim to have a nickname.

Oh dear, I have no idea about Doug's nickname. I assume it's something about him being dim....

I know! I know! It's Doug Westin.

Damn! You wanted his nickname! <weeps>

I think we got sucked back into general adoration Deliaskis. DH thinks we're all mad. He came to bed after MOTD 2 last night and said "What are you still doing awake?" When I told him I was chatting to you to you lot about the West Wing he looked at me like I'd lost my mind.

I can't for the life of me remember Doug's nickname. It's not something obvious like Dufus is it?

Tribpot I can't watch the American President anymore! I can't cope with Martin Sheen as "Leo"

But always remember, there's never an egg timer around when you need one.

LOL at 'dufus' as his nickname.

I have re-read the thread and I think that EnjoyResponsibly did in fact mean Fruit Fly Guy in the question "What name did Abby and Jed call their future son in law?" - clue there being future, plus later at 23:08 ER says 'the Fruit Fly Guy'.

So, forget about the nanny-shagger, it's game on for FFG's nickname!

beginnings, The American President is my favourite film, so I have to cope with the fact MS is 'Leo' (whilst not to be confused with Leo who is Frasier's Dad ... bloody hell it is worse than Studio 60!).

OK, I think we need a clue on Doug Westin's nickname!

x-posted tribpot FFG makes sense then!

So we need a new question....

No no no, I don't think 'Fruit Fly Guy' is his nickname - although now it might as well be - I was simply identifying which son-in-law the question was about

tribpot Mr. Sorkin does limit his range somewhat . You remember also who plays Sydney's sister??

Can we also just take a moment for the greatness that is Anna deavere smith?

beginnings ADS is indeed fab, great in everything I've seen her in.

With you on Anna DS too - in both WW and the American President...

But can't remember who plays Sydney's sister <heads to DVD shelf with plans to waste the afternoon >

Nickname is driving me mad - deffo need a clue

Also love that movie - isn't Nancy McNally also in it?! Can't remember who she plays though.

AHHHH yes ADS - had forgotten she has a real name...............

Oh ohohohohoh - isn't sydneys sister one of the bartlett daughters?????
Apols for all crossed posts!

Yes, ADS is the fantastic Robin "not to be confused with CJ" McCall in The American President, followed by Nancy "keep the McNames coming" McNally in TWW.

The age-defying Nina Siemaszko plays Sydney's sister Beth in The American President and then Ellie "not to be confused with [Eliza]beth" Bartlet in TWW.

In The American President, she must be meant to be about 30 I would have thought, as Sydney is no spring chicken - in real life Siemaszko was 25 when the film was released, Benning 37. But fast forward to TWW and Ellie must only have been, what, 22-ish when she first appears in 2001 ... when Siemaszko was actually 31.

gettingalife, if you are watching The American Pres this afternoon, please check out which door Sydney goes out of the Oval Office that apparently leads to the Pres' private office. I'm sure in TWW that door doesn't exist

tribpot "At 5.45, 5.45 doesn't do me any good Lewis, at 5.45 network news is in make-up" said, at speed while doing a very good over the top of the glasses stare even though she's not wearing any.

Or back to TWW. Yeoman Fitzwallace or Admiral Sissypants. Brilliant.

And you're right on Beth/Ellie! She is ageless. We might have to hate her for that.

One of my faves is:

Lewis Rothschild [Michael J Fox]: I tell any girl I'm going out with to assume that all plans are soft until she receives confirmation from me thirty minutes beforehand.
Robin McCall: And they find this romantic?
Lewis Rothschild: Well, I say it with a great deal of charm.

A question:
Why does CJ call Josh "Giselle"?

He wanted to be a ballerina when he was little....but really, he just like the word!

If that's correct, the next question is...

Who is Walter Huffnagel?

homeless man Toby arranges military funeral for, after finding his coat

<<sniff>>

Yep, my questions are obviously too easy!

Deliaskis - who cares? All v enjoyable.

What did Abbey withhold from CJ at the farm? Why?

tribpot or: "say what you like but it's always the guy in my Jon who ends up doing 18 months in Danbury minimum security prison."

Michael J Fox got some great lines in that movie.

Deliaskis have you another question for us??

Fiderer cider, because unnamed sources make her crazy!

Apples! She wouldn't let her have more apples because she stuck her nose in

Deliaskis you're right! I vascillated and look what happened.

Who died in the Gaza car-bombing incident?

Fitzwallis, Congressman Desantos? and Korb?

Or was he Fitzwallace?

Spot on Fiderer but have no idea on spelling!

And then, a couple of days after the bombing, a congressional aid too - CJ announced it in the press room <smug look --I've spent too many hours watching this-->

Ok, I've got one!

What was the name of the law firm Sam was working for in New York before the series started (flash back to original campaign)?

Gage Whitney!

I posted in a hurry in my desperation to be first for once What I really wanted to say was, it also appears in Studio 60 - well, a lawyer from their firm does anyway.

Yep! And for a bonus point, what was the name of the ship he was about to do a deal on? Which comes back to haunt him in a later episode....

The Indio!

Tribpot I think we should do a matrix to see how often Sorkin reuses names and plot lines. In Excel. With vlookups

I'm sure half the representatives in Congress are in the ww and in the American president. Throw in Studio 60 and we've got us some useful pub quiz data!

Nevada I am shocked that Arnold Vinick is not there. Have we entered a parallel universe? Dare I search for Matt Santos in the D primaries?

<faints>

<revives to ask The Question> Who knows which states Santos won in the general election and how many electoral votes each has?

I'm sure someone does - I always mean to look at Josh's chart more closely but then I mentally save it for the week I next have the flu

Wow Fiderer, that's a hard one that requiries copious Googling!

Another thing I love about WW is that I actually have a basic understanding of US politics. In previous years I wouldn't have known what the heck a caucus or a primary was, but now I can watch the news and find myself muttering about Ethenol pledges and the like

I'm so impressed with everyone's memories - I know exactly what you're thinking of, but in terms of actually coming up with an answer, I'm stumped every time.

When Osama was killed and there was that photo of Barack et al watching it (looked too small to be the Sit Room - must have been some offshoot) I was in a whole WW parallel universe. I could just see Toby coming up with the right wording for the statement.

Josh's chart is another bit I never get to see properly as the picture of Leo and his "thanks, boss" just send me over the edge entirely. If it was "only" Leo who died and not John Spencer too, i might be able to cope with that episode better <doubtful>

Mandy's purpose was to be a love interest story for Josh. God help us.

Donna was meant to have one scene in the pilot but did so well they added in the "All the girls think you're handsome in this shirt" scene and due to her chemistry with Whitford, their relationship became the thing instead.

But I think Sorkin picked up on how much the viewers disliked Mandy because when he was asked why he hadn't had her shot to write her out he said "Honestly? I didn't think anyone would care..."

And then the rest of the cast got to use the catchphrase "gone to Mandyville." whenever a character disappeared.

I am getting a warm glow from the love for the episode I'm named after - my favorite part was when Toby has utterly chatised and subdued the police guys and Sam then has to add that they could do with some more signposts around here too ....

Took me a while to understand the Ethanol thing. I thought at first it was just something you found in the chemistry lab next to your bunsen burner.

Right, I resorted to Google for the answer to Fiderer's question and I think I have the answers. Here goes:

Santos wins with 272 votes

Texas - 34 votes
New York - 31
Pennsylvania - 21
Illinois - 21
Michigan - 17
New Jersey - 15
Massachusetts - 12
Missouri - 11
Washington - 11
Arizona - 10
Maine - 10
Wisconsin - 10
Maryland - 10
Colorado - 9
South Carolina - 8
Oregon - 7
Connecticut - 7
Nevada - 5
New Mexico - 5
New Hampshire - 4
Rhode Island - 4
Hawaii - 4
Delaware - 3
Washington DC - 3

It is worth noting that the Electoral College is different today as they base the number of votes on the most recent census and several states have been amended since the Santos/Vinick "election".

[nerd]

So now CaveMum, unlike CJ you can explain the census to us?

Wow, Cavemum, that's impressive.

WW really is the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it? No matter how many times you watch an episode, you can always notice something new.

I did wonder what happened to Mandy... Mandyville explains it!

Thats wonderful, Cavemum.

I love the fact that some WW researcher will have had to sit down and work out mathematically how to have Santos win by a close margin!

I read that before the show was cancelled, they were debating letting Vinick win, if this was to be the last season (and Richard Schieff was thinking of coming back fulltime again if they did do another season).

Then when John Spencer died, they scrapped that idea as there was more than enough sadness to end it on (and Schieff said there was no way he was coming back without Spencer there).

If Vinick had won we would never had had that wonderful moment when Josh butts into another meeting to come and extract Sam for his own purposes. I never saw that coming.

And a little quote to end our night:

Sam: "How'd you call Josh? Didn't they take your cell phone from you?"
Toby: "I used theirs."
Sam: "So on a call-girl's phone bill, there's gonna be a call to Air Force One?"
Toby: "You really gonna be teaching a seminar on call-girl caution? Really?"

CaveMum - hurrah! Thank you. Er, where are Vinick's? <ducks>

tribpot you might have a point about WW characters needing one-liners. Even Joe Quincy had "We'd never want to compromise the aesthetic integrity of the steam pipe trunk distribution venue."

For quotes, here is a wonderful website.

Fiderer, Joe Quincy also gets "You know, not for nothing, but the people that I talk to don't believe that story, and the people that you'd like don't care".

tribpot that line and the way Matthew perry delivered it made me love him a little bit.

And beginnings note how he also restrains himself from going "could I BE any more Republican without you figuring it out?"

I was going to quote that one too, about the not caring. Shows how much of a goldfish-bowl life working in the WW must be in Washington.

Which brings me very happily to Toby and his speech in the Mess to the staffers after a leak to a reporter ending with, "I'm simply gonna say this: you're my guys. And I'm yours... and there's nothing I wouldn't do for you."

Ah, Toby.

The sad thing is I could do the Vinick stats now that I know where to look

It took 2 websites - 1 which showed a map of the US coloured in according to whether Santos or Vinick won the state, and showing how many votes they carried. However the states were not labelled so I had to find a map with all the states labelled and match them up

So what are people's thoughts on the Josh/Donna resolution. I know it divides people! Personally I'm glad they got together, to me Donna was a good match for him. She was tough enough to keep him in line (how many bosses would let their secretary talk to them like that?!) but didn't try and dominate him like Amy.

I also love the idea that CJ and Toby might have had a fling The episode towards the end of Season 7 where Toby talks about CJ always having him, Josh and Sam flirting with her and providing positive male attention is rather sweet.

Spare your blushes (ponders what that actually means), CaveMum. No need to hide your WW light under a blue folder embossed with the Seal of the President bushel.

I liked the way the Donna/Josh thing resolved itself. That she left him and then he was put out at how good she was.

What I don't like is that she was the spokesperson for the Santos campaign and he offered her only the Deputy Press Secretary position. Why not Press Sec? Who else would have offered it to? Lou was to be Communications Director. Granted Donna couldn't work for him (she was right there) but CoS to Helen Santos? East Wing v dull.

Hillary Clinton set up her offices in the West Wing though - perhaps Mrs Santos was going for a similar First Ladyship?

That worked out well, heh, BforA?

Ah. Must remove Dickensian clothing.

I'm a few hours behind the curve today but on Joe Qunincey quotes I love:

"CJ you've only known me an hour - it usually takes people. Wole day to despise me and everything I stand for"

And here's a trivia question to ponder over lunch -who did Joe (matt perry) clerk for after law school?

Aha, I know this one [I think]!

He clerked for Ashland, the one who didn't die, but got flowers anyway and eventually stepped aside for Evelyn Baker-Lang, because Josh loved her shoes.

And as an added bit of trivia, Ainsley Hayes clerked for Dreiford, who according to Tribbey, is an idiot.

Indeed, Delia. Played by Milo O'Shea.

Which leads me onto best guest stars. If I could take us there?

For me it would be Glenn Close, as already mentioned by Delia, but James Taylor was fun to have on too....

(Actually, there haven't really been too many guest stars have there?)

yoYo ma! (in the style of Donna)

Now that's a good episode.

"so long as I've got a job, you've got a job. You understand me?"

Waiiiiillllllllllll.

Sniff.

tribpot you're right about Matthew Perry very good.

On the Josh/Donna question, I thought it was inevitable but was glad they did it. They work well as a couple and it would have been silly to let it go unresolved. And he did love her so much. It just took him a while to figure it out. Stanley ought to have given him more help with that

Yep James Taylor best guest star, but also liked Bon Jovi, just cos it was funny and incredibly unlikely that he offered to babysit the Santos kids.

And of course Aaron Sorkin himself, as 'man in the audience' at the Santos inauguration.

D

What about Penn and Teller burning a flag in the East Room? That was good.

Delia - really? I missed that!

Bon Jovi could have been cringeworthy but it was funny how Lou went all star-struck.

Glenn Close is my favourite, maybe because it's such a great episode.

'an international rock star babysitting my children - what could possibly go wrong'

I never knew about Sorkin in the audience - I must rush off and watchit!

I think he's even in the credits gettingalifenow!

With the Josh and Donna thing - it was inevitable but a bit . I didn't see any evidence that Josh appreciated Donna more in the campaign than when she worked for him or that he got her in the way that she has always got him (cf classic scene in the run-up to the abduction when Donna lets it be known that Amy has never really understood Josh either).

Can we have categories for 'best guest star' playing themselves', as well as a 'best guest star playing a character'?

What about worst guest star? Much as I like her, Laura Dern was spectacularly drippy as the US Poet Laureate.

So drippy = she was wetter than a haddock's pocket ? or dinner? (Blackadder)

I knew Joe Q was in Friends but I never watched more than 5 mins of it and I'd never heard of Penn and Teller. Live abroad and until fairly recently had only badly dubbed crap on TV so rarely watched. Thank heavens for affordable DVD box sets and the internet.

Glenn Close would just edge it for me as best guest star. Though John Goodman and Christopher Lloyd were also good.

I have to give honourable mentions to two actors from Buffy (my other fab tv show) with "The Mayor" as Secretary of Agriculture and "Principal Flutie" as the bloke running for Speaker (character name escapes me).

Best "Guest appearing as themselves" - without a doubt the mighty Foo Fighters

Bet Bill Clinton would have loved a guest star appearance. Or a cameo.

tribpot, I did think that before Donna went off to the Russell campaign (another topic entirely) things were v much on Josh's terms. After that, the other way around, or better put perhaps, she no longer cared what he thought.

Talking of Bob Russell, was Doug Weston's nickname similar, i.e. DW is so dull his nick/SecretService name is "Doug Weston"?

CaveMum I was wondering who'd go for the FooFighters they were great.

John Goodman was also brilliant. You had to love him through the hate "well, I'm going to have to be re-elected again in two years anyway, right?" love that pragmatism.

Laura Dern was irritating and so unbelievable as a love interest for Toby. He likes them strong and feisty!

Some random thoughts:

I love the episode where Toby buys the house for his ex-wife in the hope that they'll get back together. It's so ... desolate. He's my favourite character, although it's hard picking one.

CJ doing 'The Jackal' is of course one of the best sequences ever committed to film.

I don't think Josh and Donna ought to have got together. Tired and cliched. It was a better show than that.

I find the house scene too sad, can't watch it <weedy> That and Mandy's "I'm so great" scene are the only 2 I cannot watch.

I was watching the Butterball hotline episode last night where Toby suddenly grabs the phone, "Zip code, Fargo, North Dakota."

LadyC - I love "The Jackal" even more now I read that Alison Janney was doing it in her trailer (?) and Aaron Sorkin then wrote it into the script. Only she was word and gesture perfect so they had to re-shoot it with her as "CJ" fluffing it a bit.

You can see how Toby might get a bit confused though - they divorce but she carries on using his sperm in her fertility treatment? (And I call it 'her' because I don't get the sense this was something they were actively doing together). That said, I completely heart Congresswoman Wyatt, so if she says it's fine then so be it.

Btw, bargain hunters, TWW series 1 is currently about 7 quid on Amazon! Do you know someone who doesn't own a copy? Then buy it for them at once

John Goodman was great. Christian Slater was another one who wasn't really given enough to do, other than smash a 300 dollar ash tray to explain why it had to cost 300 dollars. Personally I thought "is it really safe to be smoking on a submarine anyway?"

Did we ever know how Andy got pregnant? I always assumed she and Toby had a bit too much to drink one night and ended up in bed together, rather than her continuing to use his sperm

Well they were having IVF in a flashback episode, but it never is explained.

I thought they might have rekindled something of their relationship, particularly when Josh (or was it Sam?) says "You should get that nice girl pregnant."

There's so much background stuff that goes on that is never really touched on, only hinted at, particularly relationships.

I agree Cavemum, I always wanted to know more about their personal lives.

Like why did Leo and Jordan not work out, or how come Sam was engaged again at the end.

On a completely different note, I just thought of Will's half sister ( was it Emily?) who wrote the jokes in his speeches in Orange County. She left with no explanation either....

Right, never let it be said that I don't rise to a challenge. Herewith the Vinick results:

27 states went with Vinick (as opposed to 23 plus Washington DC for Santos) for a total of 266 votes:

California - 55
Florida - 27
Ohio - 20
Georgia 15
North Carolina - 15
Virginia - 13
Indiana - 11
Tennesse - 11
Alabama - 9
Louisiana - 9
Kentucky - 8
Iowa - 7
Oklahoma - 7
Arkansas - 6
Kansas - 6
Mississippi - 6
Nebraksa - 5
West Virginia - 5
Utah - 5
Idaho - 4
Maine - 4
Montana - 3
North Dakota -3
South Dakota -3
Wyoming - 3
Alaska - 3
Vermont - 3

I loved Matthew Perry's character in WW but it took me ages to realise that Ainsley had appeared in Friends.

The Toby-Andi house scene is incredibly sad LadyClarice.

But the entire jail sequence (when Charlie is angry he could've paid his bail with visa and got airmiles) is very very funny.

CaveMum I salute your commitment.

I love John Goodman getting on Airforce One en route to president Latimer's funeral and saying it's like a fraternity reunion, where's the keg?

This kind of behaviour could certainly get me committed

[nerd and proud]

Disclaimer - I did look it all up on t'interweb! I didn't know it off by heart or sit and watch both Election Night episodes with pen and paper in hand!

Cave mum you are top Nerd , although I once had a hunch the result would be based on JFKs election, but when I checked it wasn't.

Interestingly, according to one of the websites I used, that Electoral College split actually translates to pretty much a 50/50 split in terms of the number of voters. There would be less than 1million votes in it.

I love the way in the jail scene (quotes from IMDB):

Sam Seaborn: [to Charlie] You're all right?
Charlie Young: Yeah, I'm all right. You know, when you sit in a cage, you have time to do a lot of thinking.
Toby Ziegler: Hurricane, we were in the joint for two hours and 20 minutes, 'kay?

Toby Ziegler: You know what they don't tell you? You can post bond with a credit card.
Charlie Young: [to officer] Yo, man, that's totally whack!
Toby Ziegler: [into cellphone] Yeah. Charlie's trying to throw down with the street. It's kind of a sad sight to see.
Charlie Young: [to officer] I've got American Express. I've got Visa. I could've posted bond and gotten miles, damn it.

Best guest star Yo Yo Ma rules!

Especially as YoYo then played at Obamas inauguration!

On a roll now. My saddest scene is Mrs Landingham talking about her twin sons that died. Tears me up everytime.

Just watched Ninety Miles Away with Brain Dennehy as guest star - he was great too.

Cavemum, have you ever thought of applying to any of this years candidates for a job - they'd snap you up!

Another vote for Foo Fighters as great guest stars (total fan-girl). I'd also say Alan Alda was inspired as a series guest star for the last 2 seasons.

As this is the spoiler thread and I'm assuming we're all WW junkies on here, did anyone else get a tiny frisson on the non-spoiler thread when someone said how much they were loving CJ and her secret agent! I must admit though the episode leading up to the shooting was incredibly clunky in sign-posting his death - he suddenly appears with the deprived kid he is a 'big brother' for, the road is clear for him and CJ to get it on...dammit it couldn't have been more obvious if he'd been wearing a Red Star Trek Top!

I've got two friends starting WW from the beginning at the moment - I'm so excited at being able to watch them grow to love it especially as I'm coming to the end of a s.7 rewatch so I can go back and start s.1 alongside them

We've just started again. So many late nights with "just one more". I love Donna and her "randomness".

We've just started again. So many late nights with "just one more". I love Donna and her "randomness".

I loved Toby on that flight, Enjoy, singing "Suicide is painless" to himself..

"Why are we descending?! This plane, it's going down!!!"

Also Donna asking Charlie, "Is he drinking?" and Charlie lying and saying "No" as he removes the now empty bottle.

I liked Agent Sunshine ("That's Special Agent Sunshine") and CJ. Killing him off was rubbish and it overloaded the already dramatic Shakespearean episode.

Plus if Agent Sunshine hadn't died, we could have avoided Ben, who was dire and imo round at place 712 of men CJ would never have dated.

Oh god, I'd forgotten Ben, I never understood why he was in it, was there even a plot device around him? To be fair, apart from the Startrekredtop aspect, I do love that Shakespere episode, the ending is extremely well done.

I watched Annabeth find Leo when I was on the train last week - I sat there gently snivelling on the Circle line for about 10 minutes!

No no no .
Best guest appearance ever...
big bird sitting next to CJ in the hall.

I cried laughing. The way he keeps looking at her and looks a bit sad when she goes.

Nice one Pag, had forgotten Big Bird!

Seeing as we're talking of plot devices that go nowhere (ie. Ben), can I chip in with Elsie Snuffin (Will's stepsister)?

What were they thinking there? Did they have a plan for that character? She was as irritating as hell, seemed to have no real purpose on the show, and then just disappeared to Mandyland. Or so it seemed to me.

Good point jumpyjack - no idea why she was in it really, except to add another character when they were doing the scenes in Orange County...

Talking of Big Bird, given this is the trivia thread for WW geeks, can we try to remember the Secret Service names for the staff - I'll start us off with the easy ones:

Bartlett - Eagle
Zoe - Bookbag
CJ - Bigbird

I'm sure there are more, I tried to catch Santos the other day but couldn't make it out...

Sam - Princeton
Vinnick - I think he was Big Sir or something like that, you don't hear it much, but I think it's in the King Corn episode
Jed is Liberty & Eagle, I think Liberty in the pilot, or very early on, and then Eagle

Can't remember ever knowing any of the others, although it's hard to believe they weren't in it.

And CJ was Flamingo, then Big Bird, I think.

CJ was Flamingo, wasn't it? She was all bothered because she thought it was a reference to her having an unusually long neck.

Sam: Princeton

Don't remember any others.

Elsie Snuffit (?) - agree, why?

I loved the whole Shakepearean episode (apart from the gratuitous killing of Agent Sunshine), the music, the theatre of it, the way Bartlet talked to Ritchie and threw his lighter at the agent as he left.

Delia - x-post!

Is Toby's Secret Service name ever mentioned?

Suggestions? Mine: Weltschmerz. A touch of Yiddish. Though he did declare, "Happiness is my default position"!

Delia Big Sur is a mountainy bit in California so that would make sense

Oooh - just remembered another one, whichever grandson wouldn't light the Christmas tree was Tonka wasn't he?

at getting CJ wrong, she was definitely Flamingo for a while but I'm sure she became Bigbird at some point...

I cannot believe that nobody had mentioned CJ's fishbowl yet. Dh became obsessed with pausing the DVD at appropriate moments to work out the significance of what was in the fishbowl. It really was a little extra magic

I came late to the WW, but am about the embark on an entire second watching

I'm off work sick today and am about to rise from my pit. I'm having a dilemma, do I have a West Wing-athon or a Sherlock-athon??!!

I do love me some Cumberbatch!

Maybe I'll do one Sherlock and then West Wing for the rest of the day. Key question is where do I jump in with WW? I finished my umpteenth run through back in October and sometimes I just like to jump on with favourite episodes. Arrgghh! Too much choice!!

One of the things I adore about the internet - no matter how geeky and obsessed you might be, someone else is always more so and will have done the legwork for you

Disclaimer: massive goldfish bowl spoilers for those who pause on their rewatch!

Oh my! The goldfish bowl site is just the best thing i have ever seen. I had never noticed there were different things in it before! Perfect excuse for a rewatch, obviously in the interests of scientific research.

Wow, thank you Acekicker. I'd googled like made and had found a similar website blog when we twigged half way through... But it was no where near as good! But interestingly, that blog didn't know them all either Will have to do some specific googling now for the obscure ones.

Watching "The Supremes".

"I love her mind. I love her shoes"

The only thingi've ever noticed in the goldfish bowl is a mini whitehorse - I'll keep my eyes peeled from now on!

Love 'the supremes'. - another guest star in that one is the hologram doctor from star trek next generation, I think

Yes I spotted him!

Don't forget Jane Lynch as a White House reporter in one of the earlier episodes

I'm sure one of the Walton girls was a reporter at Will's press conference when he was still running the Wilde campaign.
Was I hallucinating?

Really, Fiderer? Which girl ( she must be quite a lot older now).

So many things to watch for next time around.

You weren't, Fiderer, it was Erin Walton and I think she was asking the question where Will says 'you're a long way from home' and she says 'this is a fun story'. More info to follow!

Good call on Jane Lynch CaveMum and on the mind and shoes comment.

Great episode especially when she says she's jus t going to sit and drink her water while they compose themselves. Such a shame they couldn't get her back for the inauguration but I guess she was filming Damages or something.

Xx

Mary Beth McDonough - actually from one of my favourite episodes, Game On. I just love the First Lady cutting his tie off just before the debate, not to mention the way he completely stuffs Ritchie. Alan Alda would have been a much more credible oppo during this campaign (although Ritchie not dissimilar to the current front-runners in the US I think?)

Continuing my theme of ages of actresses in the works of A Sorkin (aka Baron Corkin), Mary was a sprightly 41 when this ep was filmed, having been only 10 when The Waltons started and 20 when it finished allllll the way back in 1981. The episode itself was first broadcast very nearly ten years ago

So it was her! Don't remember her speaking though.

The tie-cutting was great. Seemed at first to me a bit dull - game tie blah, till Bartlet explained the last-minute panic gave him that extra buzz of energy.

Ritchie was George Bush, surely? The folksy image vs the intellectual elite.

tribpot, 10 years?

It's almost 6 years since they made the last WW episode!

The deranged look on Mrs Barlett's face when she waved the tie in the air...

"Abbey: Doctor Bartlet. When did I stop being Dr. Bartlet? When in the campaign did I decide that women were gonna like me more if I called myself 'Mrs'? When did I decide that women were that stupid?"

The gail the goldfish website

This has restored my faith in the human race . This is wonderful

So which episode did everyone else watch last night?

We pulled a double - In God we Trust and Things Fall Apart' - so we're heading into the democratic convention tonight.

<opens the wine, puts the feet up, ignores the housework>

I loved Josh staying backstage and getting a beer for Will and Donna. And how subdued he was as if he knew well how this was just the start of it.

I'm so excited, I'm just about to start a re-run of WW again! I last watched it beginning to end about 4 years ago and haven't had any of the dvds since (they went with the ex ) but just received season 1 in the post and will start this weekend.

I was trying to explain to someone today how it will be like meeting up with old friends, but I think I came across a bit desperate/sad. I might try and rope someone else into watching it too so I have someone to share it with. You know when you feel the need to talk about it with someone?

The only thing I am worried about, is the inevitable feeling - and I know you've all been there - that comes when the end credits roll up, and you think "oh just one more." Seriously....how do I stop myself from staying up to 3am watching them until I fall asleep on the sofa? Any tips?

Talk to us whethergirl if you can't find anyone else.

gettingalifenow the convention is fab, although again it is tinged with Leo sadness, I have to try quite hard to stop it spoiling s7 each time I watch it.

That Gail site is awesome isn't it?

Thanks Acekicker. But I might ask some stupid questions in the process, I do remember a lot of it going over my head.

We're watching Shiboleth. DH's quest for a family carving knife will begin again soon..........

We're watching Shiboleth. DH's quest for a family carving knife will begin again soon..........

Ooh, didn't remember that the carving knife saga is in the Shibboleth episode! That's in my DH's top 10 episodes.

How sad is it that weboth have our 'Top 10' lists and regularly compare them!

I'm on S3. Watched H. Con-172 last night. John Spencer on cracking form and Jordan is one of those characters I thought would be irritating but wasn't.

I liked the way she sat in Leo's office and kept reading out examples of non-binding resolutions, "A resolution in support of Ohio's state motto. A resolution fostering friendship and cooperation with the people of Mongolia."

Lots of talking here, whethergirl, and no question about TWW could ever be stupid

I love the carving knife sequence but I can't help wondering if Charlie really has enough money to insure something so valuable - or why the Pres was wanting to replace a family heirloom with a shop-bought knife! Esp as he was such a fussy bugger, it would have been better for all to have commissioned a new knife.

whethergirl, bring it on here! I've had a friend who's watched them from the beginning just recently, having never seen them before - I keep getting texts from him that just say 'go CJ' and from that I have to work out what season he's in, never mind which episode or scene, all without giving anything away.

Oh I'd forgotten about Jordan - she was rather great wasn't she...and then she just disappeared, presumably her and Leo's dinner either never happened or didn't go so well!

Is the carving knife one the same as the Butterball hotline - I love that bit when the President calls them up and Charlie has to get a Dakota post-code etc. Very silly but nicely done and not too long!

We watched Stirred last night. This is the one where Donna has an English teacher that she loved, who was about to retire. Donna spent the whole episode trying to get the Pres to issue a proclomation whatever that is for the teacher. He couldn't but instead he phoned the teacher (*bonus points if you can remember her name!) and made her and Donna's day. DH and I both cried when the Pres whispered to Donna "tell her where you are"

Molly Morello!

I'm back...

<awards bonus points to Delia>

Molly Morello!

(I realise people have probably already got this but I'm always too late. )

Oops

It's when Donna says "Mrs. Morello, I’m in the Oval Office with the President of the United States and it’s because of you." <weeps uncontrollably>

I've got one! Who was Blackwater?

Also, surely I can't have been the only person who HATED Amy. When she was dancing around to Van Morrison? Not cute.

My DH loathes and detests Amy too. I always liked her!

I don't know why but I love a little exchange between Toby and Josh
(I am going on memory so it won't be perfect)

Toby : funny and smart - that's how you get women right?
Josh : yeah. Plus I have that boyish thing going on
Toby: (sadly) yeah. I don't have that.

CaveMum, I was doodling in a dull work meeting this week and decided a tally down the right margin of S(antos) vs V(inick) states and electoral votes that I could remember was an excellent use of my time. The man opposite me kept trying to read my "notes" upside down and was visibly puzzled. S: TX 34, NY 31...

<easily amused>

I can admit on here I have actually done this before. Only now I can check my tally with CaveMum's list. My dad worked for an American company and used to doodle the 50 US states and hope the meeting ended before he got all 50. So I am carrying on a family tradition and the next time I'm bored in a meeting I'll have the consolation that if the meeting drags on, I at least have a chance to get further than the 15 States I managed last time...

Here's a thought, how about we set up our own accredited WW Masters programme?

We can include modules on electoral math (Fiderer and Cavemum, you've already passed); on secret service code names; on guest star appearances etc. all to be illustrated with quotes as appropriate.

And a final module on best music tracks of the show, which is a topic we've not yet covered here!

I'll start it : I love Alleluia, when Simon is shot and New York Minute, in the episode where Sam finds out about his Dad's double life.

celtic Blackwater was the spy, whose actual name escapes me, who was betrayed by Daniel Galt and ended up, I assume, dead.

gettingalife I like your thinking, we really are a very knowledgable bund about a -TV-- show .

So music, also love New York Minute, and of course Brothers in Arms. There's also a fun kind of trad jazz trombones etc. type thing the first few minutes of The Cold, when they're discovering they're tied, nationally, and they're waking everyone up, and Josh & Donna kiss. Don't know what it's called though but it always makes me smile.

Also the haunting music that they play when they're looking at the flowers and tributes to Zoey when she is kidnapped and the Bartletts go to church.

There's another song, a very 'all-American' one that I like when Santos & Vinnick are on the road and on and off of planes. Can't remember what that's called either.

I guess I fail the music module.

Oh I hated Amy too. She was never right for Josh. That wise-ass stuff - it just irritated me. And there was never any tenderness in their relationship.

I love that Gail the Goldfish site. I just can't quite believe I never realised there was anything of interest in the goldfish bowl.

Moving music during Zoe kidnap is Sanvean

Delia, that's Big Old Jetairliner by the Steve Miller Band.

I often think it would be the perfect job to be the guy or girl who puts the music to the episodes

Josh and Donna music was called 'Bang Bang', not entirely sure what message that was meant to convey??

I think the other piece of music was in The Mommy Problem? Jet Airliner.

Honourable mention from me for For What It's Worth.

In terms of music, I've just watched 20 hours in America, part 2, when the pipe bombs have gone off at the swim meet, and they play a lovely version of I don't like Mondays.

"Take This Sabbath Day" music is lovely in that episode. I think Toby alone could have done the whole moral bit and they could have omitted all the Sam, Joey Lucas and the parish priest scenes.

"You want me to go into the Oval Office and say 'vengeance isn't Jewish?"
"Why not?"
"Well for one thing, neither is the President".

I think Sorkin wanted to present a range of views, although from a bunch of people who seem bizarrely knowledgeable about each other (parish priest tells the Pres he was visited by a 'Quaker', how would he know that?)

I love "Bang Bang" - such a great song, really upbeat and swanky

Does anyone know which track is playing when Amy and Donna are talking about Josh and Donna says "you have to get Josh" and Amy replies with a question "do you get Josh?".

I have quite a few WW tracks on my MP3 - ooh and what's the one Foo Fighters are playing just before Santos comes out to make a statement about Leo's death?

I don't know for sure change but it could well be Ave Maria which is a thread which runs through poignant Josh scenes..

"Brothers in Arms" is, for me, the definitive WW song!

The choral performance of "Drummer Boy", sung in the White House and used as a background to the scenes of Toby and Mrs Landinghan at Walter's funeral, never fails to choke me up

Definitely agree with both those Cave - wonderful. Those are two of my favourite episodes.

It's not Ave Maria - it's Season 4 and it's R'n'B-ish/Rock-ish. There's lots of sexual tension swirling about. It's late at night and they are drinking beer. I may have to watch season 4 again to check which episode it is . I haven't found it on any of the geeky WW trivia websites which I love

I liked the Ryan Adam's one, Desire, when they used it in King Corn.

And whoever made the video of Shadow of Two Gunmen, with the Ave Maria soundtrack probably has shares in Kleenex.

Toby's reaction when he finds Josh already makes me cry, without the addition of a soundtrack.

I couldn't stand Dire Straits before TWW. Then the "Brothers In Arms" bit had me holding my breath for the first time ever because of a TV show.

tribpot - yes, I always wonder how the priest knew, it grates. It was such a powerful message and I liked how the slapstick Hungover-Josh plot developed.

The Amy-Donna moment is in the final episode isn't it? In the tension-building sequence when scrumptious Agent Wesley is realising that the shit's hit the fan and Zoey's gone missing.

Btw, returning to my Worst Guest Star theme, Jean-Paul has to rate as one of the worst characters ever. I mean I know finding a rival for Charlie was always going to be a stretch but that guy?

Sorry, penultimate episode. Is it Angel by Massive Attack?

I actually have a very important question if anyone can help.

Does anyone have commentaries on their dvds?

Considering ordering the american edition of season 2 as it has various Sorkin/Schlamme/Whitford/Sheen commentary on Shadow of Two Gunmen, Noel and 18th & Pontomac and would like to check if its on any UK editions of dvds first.

<commentary trivia would send my geekish little west wing heart into overdrive>

It's funny, I've been watching season 4 all day and there's definitely a development in the Donna / Josh relationship - through the whole Christmas / Christan Slater romance, then especially at the inauguration ball, but then after series 4 it seems to go on the back burner again.

Re John Paul, I think he just had to be the anti-Charlie.

No - no commentaries. You got my hopes up there so I ran to check but sadly not.

^^ Thanks. As far as I can make out, they are on the US versions - I am going to invest in secondhand US versions (since I need to replace first 3 seasons anyway) and shall report back.

Commentaries? I was waiting for Martin Sheen and the gang to come round to my actual house to watch the series with me

But I'm gutted to discover that they exist but are not available on the UK DVDs.

There are 4 or 5 per season I've just discovered.

On the plus side, you can buy the US DVD sets secondhand through amazon UK, which costs less than new UK ones - season 2 cost £7.

The Josh/Donna relationship also steps up a gear at the end of Season 5 when he flies out to Germany to see her after the Gaza bombing. He loves crestfallen when Irish photographer guy turns up

Much as I like the Lucius Malfoy/Jackson Brodie actor, his supposed Northern Ireland accent drove me distracted in that episode.

But I loved the scene where Josh was trying to convince himself/Leo that he didn't feel the need to go to Donna, and Leo just looks at him and calls his bluff completely.

" I wouldn't stop for red lights..."

" I wouldn't stop for red lights..."

It was definitely US editions only that had the commentaries. I remember either Amazon or perhaps even the boxes promised commentaries and when you opened them they weren't there...

...must check if my s1 has commentary/extras as we bought it in the US...

<gets very excited at prospect> - will come back and share what they're like if they're there!

Please do Acekicker - [[ http://tvacdb.sandboxen.com/series/west-wing It should be on these episodes]]

Sorry, this is the list

OMG only just realised that the photographer (Colin?) is Lucious Malfoy!

Our box set has all the commentaries - I bought it on eBay many years ago and only after the fact realised that it must be a Chinese fake copy. Which explains why a couple of the discs don't play ( on our main machine - the old version Xbox has no trouble playing anything).

We haven't even looked at all of the commentaries - just one or two ( hangs head in shame and resolves to do better)

Yup, Colin the photographer could at any moment throw on a long blond(e) wig (Donna's?) and suddenly hiss "behave, Draco". I should stress, he does not do this

I wonder why they released the DVDs without the commentary in Europe - esp when they re-released in the super-duper slimline case. Maybe they thought Johnny European wouldn't be able to understand what the commentators were saying - although I would imagine it must be virtually impossible to get the humour to translate when dubbing/sub-titling The West Wing into other languages? Since I can't listen to the commentary I might watch a bit with sub-titles on and then report back! I seem to remember even the English sub-titles can't really convey the humour.

*Tribpot" - of course!! They also play it in the club where Zooey has her drink spiked by the dastardly Jean-Paul.

<hits head in durr moment>
<checks wine stocks>
<lines up season 4 for after kids' bedtime>
<utters grateful thanks for half term holiday>

A bit late to the party, but you are all sooooo much better at the music module than me .

And I am also that there are commentaries, and I don't have them [wails].

But on the whole, this thread still makes me ...the thread giveth and the thread taketh away and all that .

We're jsut starting season 6 (again), post Gaza, off to Camp David, it's all about to get so sad yet so noble.

I really didn't like the start of series 6. I thought the death of Fitz was stupid and the Leo-in-the-woods scene preposterous. But then I'm a Sorkinite (or should that be Corkinite) so all the series after 4 are not in the same league for me!

On the Josh and Donna thing, we are just into season 7 here and have just watched the one where Donna goes to the Santos campaign for a job, and Josh turns her down. But he does say 'don't you think I don't miss you every day?' . He says it with such yearning, it makes me sigh

tribpot, I'm fairly sure I read that the Leo heart attack storyline was kinda forced on them by John Spencer's own health problems. There was no way Leo would have stood aside, he wasn't that kind of person.

Also, it was obviously never the intention for CJ to be CoS, as in the episode "Access" in Season 5, they refer to her as leaving the White House as Press Secretary.

Access was such a strange episode. I tend to forget about it and it comes as a surprise when i come across it again (Gail has a better memory than me).

Where have you BEEN, Olivia?

There was a shoutout for you, miles upthread

As an MN motto it'd certainly make people think twice about posting in the wrong topic.

Probably a few WW quotes could be applied to MN, but not the following:

"DPC says it's not ready, OMB says it's not revenue neutral and I'm
declaring a war on all acronyms."

Wished they'd used more of Bruno, pre-Vinick. He wasn't as funny when working for the Republicans

I've always wondered why, when Bartlet was re-elected, the tally shown was the popular votes, not the electoral college votes. This time around I was struck by the thought - inspired by Richie=Bush - that that was a further jibe, in that Al Gore won more popular votes than Bush.

Or am I over-thinking? If that were at all possible where TWW is concerned <sharp intake of breath>

Do you ask for the finest muffins and bagels in all the land when victory is yours, Olivia? You're missing a trick there otherwise.

There are commentaries on

Episode 1.01: “Pilot”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme
Episode 1.10: “In Excelsis Deo”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Alex Graves
Episode 1.14: “Take This Sabbath Day”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme
Episode 1.15: “Celestial Navigation”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Christopher Misiano
Episode 1.22: “What Kind of Day Has It Been”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme

Episode 2.01: “In the Shadow of Two Gunmen (Part 1)”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Bradley Whitford Janel Moloney
Episode 2.02: “In the Shadow of Two Gunmen (Part 2)”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Martin Sheen
Episode 2.10: “Noel”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Bradley Whitford
Episode 2.21: “18th and Potomoc”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Robert Berlinger Kathryn Joosten

Episode 3.03: “Manchester: Part II”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Allison Janney
Episode 3.10: “Bartlet for America”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme John Spencer
Episode 3.22: “Posse Comitatus”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Alex Graves Thomas Schlamme

Episode 4.06: “Game On”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Alex Graves Thomas Schlamme Joshua Malina
Episode 4.22: “Commencement”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Thomas Schlamme Alex Graves
Episode 4.23: “Twenty Five”
Commentators: Aaron Sorkin Christopher Misiano Thomas Schlamme

Episode 5.01: “7A WF 83429”
Commentators: John Wells Alex Graves
Episode 5.02: “The Dogs of War”
Commentators: John Wells Christopher Misiano
Episode 5.17: “The Supremes”
Commentators: Alex Graves Jessica Yu Debora Cahn

Episode 6.13: “King Corn”
Commentators: John Wells Alex Graves
Episode 6.20: “In God We Trust”
Commentators: Christopher Misiano Lawrence O'Donnell Jr.
Episode 6.22: “2162 Votes”
Commentators: John Wells Alex Graves.

On the american dvds only. I have been so tempted by getting commentary on Noel and Shadow of Two Gunmen that I've bought secondhand american season 2 - waiting for delivery.

Sorkin commenting on his last episode must be sad.

My bit of trivia - Sorkin said he was going to resolve the kidnapping very differently (although Zoe still found) BUT his plan involved bringing back Sam.

Ooh, that's tempted me out from lurking. How was he going to resolve it?

He said Zoe was to be found in the back of a Muffler shop (which I understand as a mechanic's garage) he had planned it all quite differently.

I couldn't believe Sam could have been back if Sorkin hadn't been gone.

I'm one of the people who definately prefers the banter and interactions of the Sorkin years, although I did find parts of the final season v moving.

What was the mechanism by which Sam would have reappeared?

<bated breath>

I suppose the advantage of Sam having 'left' with no explanation is that he could be reinserted into the plot again in a 'oh Sam, there you are' <Leo looks up from his desk> kind of way.

But I don't think Sorkin has ever said much about how he would have done it really, has he? Hopefully he would have come up with a less daft way in which Zoey would be found (drunk woman let out of a car in the middle of nowhere or summat?) or explanation as to why Nancy McNally felt it was an 'absurd' kidnapping when a Secret Service agent had been killed at the scene.

He only said the muffler shop part that I ever read, and that it was meant to be very different from how John Wells decided to do it. (Nancy also did speculate on finding Zoe somewhere like that, didn't she?).

I hope for more illumination from his commentary on the episode with the kidnap, if I ever get hold of it.

I'm sure he had a better longterm plan when he planned to have her kidnapped - agree it was quite daft Tribpot. I always feel like a big chunk has been edited out - the explanation is so vague and its all resolved in a big rush for the end of the episode.

He didn't elaborate on how Sam was to return, sorry Northey! But it would make some sense if Sam felt he should return/ was asked to come back when the whole place was in crisis. The way he left was quite unsatisfying.

Nancy actually said "muffler shop" I think. She thought it was absurd that the plan relied on Zoe going to the loos. Though if the kidnappers had been shadowing her, they'd have known about the party from the grapevine so it's not absurd. Wait and grab, surely?

I'm curious, what sets off the "Victory is mine" chant in MN Towers?

She did - her supposition was in this 'absurd kidnapping' Zoey would turn up in the back of a muffler shop. This was to do with it being a low-tech operation, although still on that basis it's not clear how they managed to bypass the security net, or why Molly didn't call in to say she'd lost Zoey when she went to try and find her. Etc etc.

Yes to low-tech operation. All very iffy, I think I found that transcript site while trying to work out how Zoey was found and gave up trying to figure it out.

Wish they'd more of Nancy in the later seasons, she's another wonderful character and actor.

Also, Molly and the other 2 agents had been added to Zoey's detail, so there must have been a lot more, surely? In the club it looked like there were only those 3. Far better to gloss over it, imo. Bad enough with Jean-Luc/Paul/insert annoying Faux French actor here.

Randomly (the more work I have to do from home the more I post...) Ed and Larry. One of those running gags that never got too much. Don't think I ever figured out who was who

Ed and Larry were fab! As were all the secretaries that, basically, saved the Senior Staff's asses in times of need - Carol, Bonnie, Ginger, even Margaret!

Me neither ! - did we EVER see them apart?

A gloating moment here - who had a more perfect Valentine's night than this - Chinese takeaway, bottle of champagne and three, yes, count them THREE episodes of WW! I have the best DH ever.....l

Tell us which three eps are the Valentine's special, getting!

Greater love hath no man for a woman than that he provideth the food of the Orient, the sparkling wine and at least three episodes of The West Wing.

<so sayeth I scripture>

DH is working away do last night was me, the cat, some left over pasta, topped off with Gok and Big Fat Gypsy Wedding!

The bubble now bursts - it was just the next three in our sequence! Toby fesses up, chairman Farah is assassinated, and Gail has an ice sculpture in her bowl....still, that's' my idea of romance!

what is tssdncop

The Secret Service Does Not Comment On Procedure.

Or: we ain't telling why we do what we do.

lol that will be why I see oliviamn use it a lot

I soo want to be cj.. she is just brilliant with the press...

I saw a programme on Kennedy once that showed, if you used one of those computer generated aging programmes on a picture of JFK, he looked a lot like Martin Sheen!
There's also a lot of suggestion that Bartlet is the President that Americans hope/believe JFK would have been. Though reading up on JFK himself that seems doubtful

Martin Sheen of course famous played Kennedy back in the day (must see if I can get a copy of this at some point!) but I don't think they were particularly similar - Bartlet not being a serial shagger, for one.

I think it was more along the lines that JFK, had he lived, would have turned out a just and true President, as Bartlet was. Sadly hindsight tells us he'd have been too busy getting his rocks off!

tribpot I have that DVD from lovefilm right now we were watching it last night. It's weird, he's very young, but quite good, quite sort of historical rather than dramatic if you know what I mean. Did you see the more recent TV drama?

CaveMum I think Sorkin said that Bartlett was meant to be a kind of mash-up of Kennedy, Carter, and Clinton (but as Tribpot said far less of a serial shagger/non-shagger-but-still-the-other-thing).

Anyway, I have got the opportunity for a bonafide 'victory is mine' because after being made redundant earlier this month, and thinking DD's first shoes would be made from tree bark and string, and she would be raised on gruel, I have just received a job offer, so.....Victory Is Mine...bring me the finest muffins and bagels in all the land....would you please...somebody?

D

Deliaskis then victory is INDEED yours! You are the man! (I mean you're not, that's a reference to the WW quote, obviously ) Fantastic that you've managed to turn it around so quickly, bloody well done you!

I saw some of The Kennedys but couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. I thought Greg Kinnear was excellent, as he usually is.

Well done Delia, on your day of jubilee!

Deliaskis
We shall bring you a river to ford and a serpent to slay!

On second thoughts, drinking from the keg of glory and having all the muffins and bagels in the land sounds better!

trib it's 'da' I am so 'da' man!

My day of jubilee, nothing is going to spoil my day of jubilee.

Now, about that panda ...

I thought The Kennedys was pretty good. I was unaware of a lot of the family background history and from what I understand a lot of Americans were unhappy about the stuff that came up, as they felt it showed JFK in a bad light. I just can't get over the "Kennedy Curse" though! So much tragedy in one family. How Mrs Kennedy snr kept going through losing so many children in such tragic circumstances I'll never know.

Just to be a bore, here are details of the Kennedy tragedies:

1941 - Rosemary Kennedy (sister to JFK) is forced to undergo a lobotomy by her father which leaves her permanently disabled. She remains in an institution until her death in 2005.

1944 - Joseph P Kennedy (brother to JFK) killed in the UK whilst serving as a pilot in WWII

1948 - Kathleen Cavendish (sister to JFK) killed in plane crash in France

1956 - Jackie Kennedy (wife of JFK) gives birth to a stillborn daughter, Arabella

1963 - Patrick Kennedy (son of JFK) dies 2 days after birth

1963 - JFK Assassinated

1964 - Edward Kennedy (brother to JFK) involved in a plane crash that leaves 2 people dead

1968 - Robert Kennedy (brother to JFK) is assassinated

1969 - Edward Kennedy crashes a car into a ditch and his passenger, Mary Jo Kopechne, dies

1973 - Joseph Kennedy II (son of Robert Kennedy) crashes a car leaving his passanger permanently paralysed.

1973 - Edward Kennedy loses part of his leg to bone cancer

1984 - David Kennedy (son of Robert Kennedy) dies from drugs overdose

1997 - Michael Kennedy (son of Robert Kennedy) dies following a skiing accident

1999 - John F Kennedy Jr (son of JFK) dies in a plane crash

2011 - Kara Kennedy (daughter of Edward Kennedy) dies of heart attack in a health club, aged 51.

Bloody hell, that's grim.

Can we go back to bagels and muffins and painting pandas?

Sorry, didn't mean to drag the thread down!

To make amends I propose pizza in the Roosevelt Room

It would be difficult to find 3 actual romantic valentine's episodes of WW. CJ and Agent Sunshine get together briefly and it all goes horribly wrong, Josh and Donna get together and Leo dies. Sam attempts to go on dates with women on an annual basis and generally lands up bantering instead.

It seemed fitting that Ed and Larry were still around to be thanked by the president in his final wander through the WW in Tomorrow.

Best ever Ed and Larry scene IMO - when CJ tells Charlie "you'll find it in your filing cabinet under A for Anal" and one says to the other "I don't even want to know what he's going to find in his filing cabinet.."

I really liked Charlie and CJ's prank war - especially the desk at the end.

I shall eat a salad Cavemum (and make an entire speech about it like Toby)

"It's a bowl of weeds!"

Of course the other option is Chinese food in Leo's Office, but I think that only works at 1am!

Foodwise, where Ainsley leads, some form of snack inevitably follows

Romance-wise, there's Danny's "let's jump off a cliff" speech, although I've never really got on well with the whole Danny-and-CJ-sail-off-into-the-sunset-and-have-a-baby plotline.

A better ending for Sam and Mallory would have been nice!

I did like that Danny speech. I just can't think of any episode I would class as romantic. The president and first lady have their moments but they tend to be amusing more than anything - when she tells him, via Charlie, that he's been cleared for sex after the shooting and the night after he gets re-elected? When he's being very cocky and they get interrupted with Toby telling them about the twins.

I liked Danny and CJ as an (eventual) couple, I never realised he wasn't liked by quite a lot of viewers until I went on TWOP.

<In fairness, TWOP does great, in depth, recaps of every episode - every peech and action detailed - they take ages to read!>

Not every peech, every speech - there's only one peach featured in the WW and that's been covered here already..

Is that the peach Ainsley thinks she spies in the mess and goes back for? That girl really focused on food....

^^ Indeed, you should have been here earlier - it was the topic of a trivia question

(I think we have just lapsed into basking in the warm glow of mutual adoration for the WW now).

A question: no prizes though for guessing the episode I watched last night

How many registered voters are there in Hartsfield's Landing?

Your bonus question: What's the population?

Your double bonus question: Names and ages and occupations of the non-registered voters

Groan. I feel that the Flenders are involved here?

<goes to reprise the Hartfield episode>

We watched the live debate last night, which is actually one of my least favourite episodes, which got me to thinking about episodes I don't like < shock! Heresy!>

Are there any episodes you DON'T watch when it comes around again? For me, there are just a couple - Issac and Ishmail ( which I only watched once when it was first aired) and the one where CJ goes to see her father and to her high school reunion ( I just don't take to that episode,maven tho it's one of DH's favourites).

Anyone else have episodes they don't watch again?

I share your groan, it went on for ages, rather over-laboured any and all points it wanted to make.
Am sure there's a real-life equivalent to HL, usually is with TWW.

Liked the chess scenes with Sam, and Charlie versus CJ.
"Now we're playing for keeps."

getting - also the Isaac one, the reunion, plus Access.

Yes, I think there's an equivalent to HL in real life - Jon Stewart reported on it a few weeks, when the runaway winner (with three votes) in the Republican primary was Barack Obama

I've only seen the high school reunion one once, and would skip it next time as well. I'm not sure what the point was - to showcase Allison Janney's fabulous talent? No problem with that, but why then take her completely out of the political arena and have her randomly shag some guy in a non-CJish kind of way? (Even if that guy is Matthew Modine). I think Janney deserved better material, frankly.

I'm in two minds about Isaac and Ishmael. I'm not sure it was really meant to stand the test of time in the way the other episodes do - it was broadcast only 3 weeks after Sept 11 and I think having to come up with something to say must have haunted Sorkin, because he returns to it in Studio 60, where again the show is ordered back on just after Sept 11 but with a very narrow remit (and eventually the main characters quit in the months ahead because they are not allowed to return to satirising the government).

The episode doesn't make a huge amount of sense, but I think they all did the best they could under the circs.

You're absolutely right tribot, it was totally of its time and they had to do something. They did well, in retrospect to get something out at all

Agree they were brave to do anything about, especially as they probably knew they'd get slated whatever the episode was like.
And then slated again by the MNers

I've found Studio 60 online and watched most of the 1st episode. Disconcerting at first (Josh? Joe Quincy?) Enjoyed it, think I need to watch it again and this time in full. (Didn't take to Jordan at all though. Looks like she's trying to hypnotize people all the time)

I don't think we've slated it, just said it isn't up to the standard of the rest of the series. As one would expect in the circs.

Studio 60 is highly disconcerting, esp as Felicity Huffman turns up (hello, I am Ann Stark - or should I have saved that for a trivia question?)

Later on, Allison Janney turns up ... even more confusingly as herself. One of the characters talks dismissively of her 'little White House show'. It's an absolute classic of an episode, though.

Did you mean Studio 60 Jordan rather than West Wing Jordan, Fiderer? She gets less annoying (the S60 that is, the WW is fantastic from the start).

Btw I also didn't like the Live Debate - as an episode it was okay but hate this stupid gimmick of the live show. Esp as the poor buggers have to do it twice, once for east coast and then once for west. But once it's been on (twice) - it's just another show that's been recorded that everyone else watches later, and all you've really done is cause the cast and crew to severely want to poop their pants.

My theory is that the Reunion episode was written specifically for Alison Janney to submit for emmy consideration - It just had that feeling to it.

It was the only episode she submitted that year so I guess it was meant to showcase her range. And then it was the only year she didn't win during the first 5 seasons....

I liked when she submitted Celestial Navigation as one of her episodes and won, because her woot canal was prize-winning comedy

Tribpot I also love how if you're a WW geek, you can watch S60 and nod your head knowingly, because it's full of 'in'...not jokes exactly, but in humour across the two shows.

So...a little WW/S60 crossover trivia:

Which firm is featured in both WW & S60?

What poster is displayed in S60 that is a reference to an episode of WW?

Which Christmas song features in both shows?

D

Delia, I think we already did the firm question above (at least the question arose as 'what firm did Sam work for' and I showed off by pointed out it appeared in S60 too Have you seen Sports Night (more fabulous Felicity).

Celestial, I didn't realise you submitted episodes for consideration. How odd. A bit like: I think I'm bloody marvellous and here's some supporting evidence .

Sorkin has since said Issac and Ishmael was a bad episode (& that it "began as a hate-filled tirade") so I think everyone's right to say it has to be taken in context and he was obviously very raw while trying to write it.

While reading about that episode, i learnt that Josh is supposedly Aaron's voice inside the show (Bradley Whitford thinks that Sorkin wanted his job, but wants to look like Rob Lowe )

It does come across slightly like that Tribpot! But everyone has to submit episodes. Usually 2 as far as I can see. Like Bradley Whitford won for Noel and SOTG which made sense.

Even for the "best TV show" type awards, they have to submit particular episodes. My guess is that the emmy judges are only willing to watch so many hours of TV. As sadly, not all TV is like the WW...

Yes, I suppose that makes sense. You're not going to wade through the whole of every series to see if it's any good, but to be fair to all you have to give them the same amount of consideration.

I also think the episode where Sam has found out his father had an affair was written for Rob Lowe to put in for an Emmy. Except he was supposedly a main actor so he landed up in the same catagory as Martin Sheen (submitting Two Cathedrals). Which made no sense to me.

John Spencer/Richard Schieff/Bradly Whitford were all going for supporting actors and their characters were at least as prominent as Sam.

Also, who on earth would want to compete with Sheen in Two Cathedrals?

(It is a relief to get my conspiracy theories about the Emmys off my chest - I far preferred the ensemble type episodes than episodes where one character suddenly dominated. Except Noel as I am hopelessly biased towards Josh).

Yeah but writing stuff specifically for consideration is just cheating, innit? I think the Emmy bods should take two eps at random to prevent such brazen hustling.

Wasn't this the crux of the problem for/about Rob Lowe? He was, Sheen excepted, the most famous person in the cast when it started and so could reasonably assume he would have the lead-ish role, whatever that exactly means in an ensemble piece. Being downgraded to 'one of the many' was quite galling for him (although arguably he should have been bloody grateful to have been in it in the first place, I bet Michael J Fox wouldn't have had a shit fit in the same circumstances). However, competing with Martin Sheen in Two Cathedrals was just bloody stupid. Even if you won (which you wouldn't), how would you feel about that forever ??

It would be much better if they took 2 random episodes - I don't really feel its cheating, more they want to show an actor's range so they do an episode that is full of chances for that actor to show emotion. But it seems to happen a lot with american series (you get the press saying "spot the Emmy episode" when some shows suddenly insert one). I think the viewers get short-changed sometimes.

It must have been hard for Rob Lowe to be downgraded, when Sheen wasn't expected to be in the series that much, but every other actor, including Sheen, talked a lot about how grateful they were to have such wonderful actors to play against. Which seems a better perspective to take. Whereas Lowe left Brothers and Sisters for the same reason (and they had a pretty good ensemble cast too).

Yes, it would indeed be very hard to feel satisfied with an award where you had to believe you were better than Martin Sheen in Two Cathedrals...

Mind you, Tony Soprano still beat Sheen and Sheen never won it.

at the brazen Emmy hustling. I was surprised enough when I found out that episodes were submitted. Suppose I'd always thought the panel-thingy would know what shows/actors were good and there'd be a sort of compare & contrast & suggest process.

The corporate side of TV is cut-throat though, what I saw during my dizzying first look at Studio 60 shows that well. I think I'm soppy and naive about this because I'd like to think the actors don't choose the episodes ("Oh, I'm fabulous in this one") but the networks and agents.

I had no idea the Emmys worked like that - seems a bit of a cheek - they should watch it all <sends in volunteering letter>.

Does anyone have a link for which episodes won which awards for the WW then - I bet you do!

This is the best I can find with a quick Google. It lists all nominations and awards won.

Also this, for episodes submitted:

www.westwingepguide.com/index.html

Click on "information type" for each season, and then "awards"

Tells you which episodes were submitted and which ones won.

Also if you click on "episodes" you will be lost for hours...there is a huge amount of quotes from interviews from cast and Sorkin etc about individual episodes and how they felt about them etc - eats up large chunks of the day...

I do think its largely the networks who pressure for as many submissions as possible btw - apparently its a huge competitive, money-driven, ratings-driven thing to them when "their" shows get Emmys.

Some actors have to be persuaded to submit "for consideration" and then only a shortlist of those get an actual nomination.

Yes, it hurt my artistic sensibilities too, Gettingalife, and frankly I would be perfectly willing to simply dedicate myself to watching whole seasons of TV shows as a fulltime Emmy-judge job too

Ooh, Celestial, (that sounds odd but ne'r mind!) that link.
<rubs hands>

Its some site, isn't it? Most of the WW trivia humming around my head has come from the interview quotes on that site. It is great comfort reading when you need distracting from actual life.

And its great to have a thread to discuss it!

<I rather like being called Celestial, it's better than "Navigation." Posters who are not familiar with the WW keep calling me Celestia and I think "huh, someones got 156 episodes of great TV to discover >

The real Hartsfield Landings

I always skip the CJ reunion episode, it bored me a bit at the time and unless I've forgotten chunks of the plot it added nothing to any series story lines.

I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that WW was supposed to be a Rob Lowe vehicle - it was the first big thing he did after his 'mainstream' revival via Wayne's World. The President was supposed to just be an occasional recurring role but Martin Sheen kicked so much ass in the pilot that they shifted the focus so the first family were just as important as the staff.

Two Cathederals - still brilliant.

CelestialNavigation is a great name. By "sounds odd" I meant my "Ooh, Celestial", like something from a bad Enid Blyton copy

Debbie Fiderer has just been interviewed (S4, 20 Hours in America Part 2) and I think my heart beats for Sam Seaborn for the 1st time. For standing up for Fiderer and for the scene with Mallory where he admits that he found staffing the President really hard and says about a line in his speech, " I think I stole it from Camelot."

Favourite episodes Celestial Navigation and The Supremes

The entire collection is still the best ever tv

Han and The Long Goodbye are my least favourites.
I couldn't possibly skip episodes but I may fastforward through them

love reading this thread - thank you fellow WW fans

i was wondering if you can help me

in the episode where they find zoe bartlett and rescue her from the kidnappers, how do they find her? when they are flying in the helecopter you can here the FBI explaining about a domestic violence incidence, but i never can make the connection no matter how many times i replay it

anyone worked out what the stuff in the helecopter is about and how its linked to Zoe?

SittingBull, the only way to understand what they're saying is to put the sub-titles on. It still makes no sense, mind you. It's quoted here - "A Virginia state trooper responded to a domestic disturbance call outside of Calverton. They both got drunk. He had let her out at the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, so she dialed 911 on her cell. The trooper couldn't find her. She wandered off somewhere to try to get out of the rain. Guy checked an old barn across the road from where she said she'd be."

Oh well then, that's nice and clear

Oh, I liked Han Ample (I always enjoy Bob Russell episodes and thought the North Korea quandry was good) and I don't actually mind The Long Goodbye - but I don't like the live debate or the Israel/Leo's Heart Attack episodes. I do skip them.

Was watching one of my favourites last night and thought of this thread and the question from the 14th of whether any WW episodes could actually be described as romantic. I really like the Season 1 episode He shall, from time to time, which has Leo learning about the MS, and forgiving the President, but also Mallary kissing Sam and CJ kissing Danny. It's nearly romantic. Well as close as WW gets, maybe.

Building on from Sitting Bull's question, how about a list of things that were never satisfactorily explained, or just plain irk (and, yes, I know this show ended years ago and I should get over it, BUT):

1. The kidnapping - poorly resolved/terrible explanation
2. The Toby/military shuttle leak - I know, it's left unclear and there are several explanations, but it just doesn't sit right in terms of what we already knew about Toby's character. And it annoys me.
3. CJ's appointment as Chief of Staff. She was in no way qualified for this. If they wanted a woman, Nancy McNally was a more realistic choice.
4. Sam being essentially single for four years.

Any one else?

I really liked Han, too. I really felt the pianists pain when he wasn't allowed to defect.

We've just watched the Toby/ shuttle episodes again and I've been watching out for more clues and i don't think it hangs together either. I wonder if his brother's death maybe changed his point of view as he does say his brother would sooner have died than given away secrets

The how they found Zoey is really weak. OK, woman called the police, he couldn't find her, found an old barn... then what? Peeped through the window and saw Zoey (who was locked in a closet)? Recognised her and called up the might of US law enforcement who arrived in total silence? The house looked like a house, not a barn.

Think we'll have to gloss over that bit!

Toby - I think he did leak it. I think he felt that if it had been his brother, he'd have done it. As it was, his brother had died and he wasn't able to save him, it hit him very hard and he was angry that his brother killed himself and also felt bad about being angry. Leaking the information meant he could "save" the astronauts when he couldn't save his brother. Lots of emotions together with what Bartlet refers to as Toby's feeling of moral superiority, i.e. that he felt it was the right thing to do.

Read somewhere that Richard Schiff thought Toby wouldn't have leaked it and that the network/production company wanted to save money by not having so many main characters around.

Then again, am not always sure what I've read and what I just make up

I think I asked on the previous WW epic thread about the one where tuleremia is 'released' or possible 'not released as it was a drill'. That episode confused the heck out of me and the possible plot line options never went anywhere...

Adding to Olivia's list - Kate and Will getting it together. I think the only person who managed to hold down a relationship with anyone outside the WW was Margaret - even then they made a joke about her pregnancy with comments along the lines of 'did you know?' 'no, I didn't even realise she was [seeing anyone]' etc. And of course that was all because NiCole whatserface was pregnant in real life.

Had forgotten that tularemia one. That definitely goes on the list as being unclear and irksome.

Yes, Sorkin did seem to be making a point about not being able to hold down relationships because they all had such big jobs. But the President does! And Sam doesn't even seem to date. And Toby doesn't have sex for 7 years?

Margaret is alluded to several times as being a lesbian. I assumed they were implying in that scene it was a sperm donor baby. Or have I made that up?

OliviaMN, there are several here in Telly Addicts. You may have to scroll back through a few pages, but they are there!

I think as well as the kidnapping itself, the lack of an aftermath. Someone gave the appalling Jean-Paul the spiked ecstasy to give Zoey so there was clearly a conspiracy, but no investigation appears to have been carried out. No-one else appears to have been involved except the people killed in the raid, nor indeed any obvious consequences to the US admitting they bumped off Sharif, is it ever even mentioned again? Nor of course is Jean-Paul himself - no great loss but is he ever charged with anything? Does he not get crucified in the media as the idiot boyfriend who got the First Daughter kidnapped?

The Kate character always annoyed me (esp her fringe) as she seemed mainly have been introduced to bring down the average age of the cast, and then John Wells did what he always does and starts introducing random romances between the characters as well - boring and pointless.

I simply do not believe Toby would have leaked the shuttle story (in itself a rather preposterous plot device not in keeping with the nature of the show).

They are there.
With all the usual suspects

Honestly, what's the point of being in MNHQ if you can't instantly locate WW threads?
<ducks behind CJ's podium>

x-post with tripbot. I think the "Toby leaked it" was devised as the brother grief/moral superiority idea answers the "who and why?" but find it a bit clumsy as Toby was fiercely loyal to the Bartlet team, witness his criticism of Josh for leaving TWW and going to Santos.

So perhaps it was merely a device, as Richard Schiff reportedly said.

With regards to the spiked ecstasy, they did say that they'd gone to Jean-Paul's dealer's apartment, but that he was already dead. Presumably that meant the trail went cold at that point.

I've never made my mind up abuot the space shuttle thing, part of me thinks he did do it - remember early on in WW history Toby's brother is on the space station when there is a problem, so perhaps he was thinking back to how he felt when it was his brother up there - but then part of me thinks it's not very Toby-like.

There's a thread in Chat about WW containing people who are watching it for the first time.

I'm so

It's not in any way Toby like - it really pissed me off. Although I was glad the president pardoned him.

Re Zoe, I just watched these episodes last night - they referred to everyone involved in the conspiracy probably being dead so I suppose they had nothing to go on . And the missing Baijis (sp?) never turned up either.

Elisabeth Moss' acting in these episodes was brilliant though, she looked so haunted.

No, they aren't bad episodes but watching Han makes me sad.

'A sadness so deep no tears will come. And yet still there's hope'.

Gawd, it almost always leaves me with a lump in my throat. Powerful stuff but certainly not jolly

I actually loved the Toby leak story. I think the difference between his actions and Josh's in leaving to work with Santos (in Toby's moral scheme anyway) is that Toby felt that he was acting to save people e.g. with a higher moral purpose, whereas Josh was simply 'deserting' the WW. I also believe that it caused him a lot of sleepless nights before he decided to do it. I agree with Fiderer that it was all mixed up with his feelings about his brother.

I also read Richard Schieff on that storyline and he said there was no way Toby would ever have done that because of his loyalty to Bartlett. Schieff wanted some time off (it hadn't been decided that the 7th season was the last season) and they told him to come up with an exit storyline. Then they totally ignored his idea and did the space shuttle one instead. He sounded very indignant!

I do agree the grief over his brother made it more believable but I couldn't believe it still - Schieff said the only way he could play it was to keep in his head that Toby was covering for someone else so I tend to think of that when I watch it.

I found the Toby - Josh physical fight the saddest thing ever. Josh felt he had to leave and fight to get the right person into the White House after Bartlett, and he still felt guilty over deserting. Toby feels abandoned and is almost sabotaging Josh's efforts. When Toby says that Josh never asked him to come and campaign, or he might have come, there's a look that passes over Josh's face when he realises the truth of that and can't stand it, and then IIRC he just goes for Toby. I can hardly watch that part.

I never thought about the unlikelihood of a Press Secretary being made COS until the threads here but its quite true - CJ was never included in foreign policy stuff.

I did like the episode where she tried to adjust though, and her refusal to knock on her own door into the oval office. Plus the part where they essentially gave her a hazing and everyone else pretended to resign. Better than bicycles and goats in your office, any day.

Yes, I really liked the episode Lift Off provided you could ignore the basic implausibility of CJ being the 'obvious' candidate as new CoS. One might, if one were - say - Deputy CoS wonder if one were not the more obvious candidate. I think Hoynes does say to Josh 'you couldn't do the kind of politicking you do from behind that desk' but even so.

I think there's a nice moment between Santos and Josh when he also says something nice like that - it certainly needed said by someone!

It must have been for storyline/actor reasons - if John Spencer had health trouble and they needed Josh out on the road campaigning and Richard Schieff wanted reduced hours, they could hardly promote Will to COS so it had to be CJ?

I did also like the reaction of the press pack when CJ told them - she attempted to gloss over it fast and they looked utterly stunned and then applauded her - it was really nice camerawork. Also Toby as press secretary was very good acting - I really cringed along with him.

Actually you're right, it's Santos, not Hoynes.

I suspect there was an element of it having to be someone who wouldn't plausibly be involved in the campaigns (would an incumbent press secretary leave to become Director of Comms or similar for a new candidate? I would think their face would be too linked with the current president). And I suspect another ratings grab, as Allison Janney is (rightly) an incredibly popular member of the cast.

But plausibly there are literally hundreds of people they would have wanted before CJ - Angela, for one. Sam for another. Toby could never have been CoS.

My main gripe about CJ becoming CoS is that she wasn't as funny. Loved the way she went into the Oval Office and said as a greeting to Fitzwallace "Sailor".

Hello! Saw mention of this thread on the chat one and thought I'd pop in! I love WW!

CJ becoming CoS was totally wrong and only because they sent Josh to work on Santos' campaign. And Toby's shuttle story line was pants!

<gavel>

And I killed the thread. Sorry.

I expect everyone's settled down watching their box sets

They'll be back!

Tee - no! Don't think it's possible to kill a WW thread. Hardy folk here. (How's life in Belfast, btw? S2 wants us to move there because "everyone's so friendly")

Life in Belfast is good, thanks. And everyone is very friendly. The sun was even shining today, although I missed it as I was in bed with a migraine all day.

To get back on subject...Josh is hotter than Sam.

Sun shining? My adorable nephew (15) last summer: "Aunty Fiderer, look at that round bright thing in the sky. It's the sun. Do you see it often where you live?"

Meanwhile, while in exile, I'm going to watch "Game On".

I take the point about CJ becoming COS, but I love the part where it's announced in the PBR and the journos all stand and clap led by Chris.

Don't worry about thread-killing here, Tee. We tend to post in flurries, then everyone goes off and watches a few more episodes or perhaps attempts to engage in real life for a moment and then they return.

Game On, one of my favourite episodes. "It's not going to be Uncle Fluffy".

It was very surprising, Fiderer!

I love Game On, but I think its because I was so relieved that Debate Camp was over. Is there a cringier scene in all 7 series than Sam and Co singing the Camp song?

OK, biggest Moment That Makes You Cry. For me it's The Stackhouse Filibuster - can't remember exact line but something like "my question is quite long and it's in 27 parts - perhaps the senator would like to sit down and have a glass of water whilst I speak?" <wails>

Watching Mrs Landingham at Walter's funeral and knowing she's thinking of her son's reduces me to an utter mess every time.

Also:

The end of Two Cathedrals
Simon's death
The end of "The Supremes" when Glenn Close is signing Toby's book for Molly
Leo's death

Cave mum, YES. In the office when she says "it's hard to think they didn't need their mother".

Well I started watching again from Season 1. Dh eyerolled when he saw me with the box
Now on disc 2 (There is one fruit..)

So many good episodes.

It was lighter in the early years wasn't it? The humour came thick and fast. 2001 changed that. Still witty afterwards but more edge somehow.

I read a long list of plot holes and errors ages ago and compiled my own with questions galore. It went missing, wish I still had it.

I also thought the kidnapping/rescue episodes were a little weak, in fact some seasons on the whole, are stronger than others.

One lump in throat moment for me is the Oval Office scene with Donna talking to her old teacher Molly Morello.

Can't wait to get to Celestial Navigation, I know I will giggle and chuckle my way through it.

I'll be back
for the thread!

When Mrs Landingham tells Charlie about her boys.

Agree with the wailing at that line in the Stackhouse Filibuster. Also Simon's pointless death.

As I said up thread I really feel for the pianist in Han, plus I really feel for Toby when Andie says 'you're too sad for me' - well maybe if you'd marry him again he wouldn't be too sad!!

Jean-Paul has just turned up. He actually gets worse with every viewing. Charlie gets better.

Same episode has this, followed by Leo threatening to put snakes in CJ's car:

C.J. Well, first of all, that's not a cow. It's not! It's a goat. Yeah, I may
have agreed to something about a goat.
LEO
Did the First Lady get you drunk and take you shopping?
C.J.
Leo... yes.

I also found the one where they chose Mendoza very moving, when they left the Oval Office and all the staff were outside cheering. Shame Mandy was hanging about ruining all the early episodes.

Watched Han last night - it didn't really seem to fit - after the kidnapping and Abbey to all intents and purposes leaving Jed.

I can't watch Toby and Andie in the house - I had to mute it and potter around doing other things when it was on the other night.

"Biggest Moment That makes You Cry" is when Donna says "He was so proud of you Josh."

I find the part where they run through the hospital, and get there too late, very distressing. Because Bradley Whitford said that was exactly what happened in real life for him, with John Spencer's death, and he does look so shaken.

Donna finding Josh in Leo's room and saying that to him just finishes me off entirely.

Other sponsored by kleenex moments:

Bartlett giving Charlie the knife.

Toby finding Josh shot and staggering slightly, and Josh looking up at him and falling.

The way Mrs L says that line about thinking her sons must have wanted their mother.

When CJ goes to tell Will he is taking over Toby's job and she is trying to stop herself crying.

When Bartlett gives Leo the napkin at the end of "Bartlett for America" and says "That was an awfully nice thing you did, Leo"

And Toby's babies coming with hats

The knife moment always gets to me (despite pragmatic concerns discussed further up the thread) - Dule Hill looks like he might actually be about to break down and cry, it's fantastic.

I appreciate Dule Hill's performance more every time I rewatch the WW. All the acting he does in the background during different "moments" in the Oval Office, when the focus is on the others and he's just hovering by the door.
Margaret often does the same thing in Leo's office, reacting to stuff the others say that will affect Leo.

I love the first Big Block of Cheese Day when Leo says Margaret spent a lot of time matching up people with meetings and Margaret shakes her head behind his back.

and seamlessly changes to nodding when he looks at her!

Josh and CJ at the Cartographers for Social Equality (or somesuch) is my favorite Big Block of Cheese Day interview. Those maps were amazing.

Aww, poor Pluie the wolf!

Am I alone in thinking (until very recently) that Dulé Hill's name was pronounced "Duel" rather than "Du-le"?

It honestly never occurred to me!

For me actors are defined by their roles in one of two shows: West Wing or Buffy - as in "It's so-and-so from WW/Buffy"

My methid got into a little trouble when both The Mayor and Principal Flutie showed up in WW

Pluie is the name of our remote control for the TV. Sounds odd but bear with me. The remote control is blue and we started calling it 'bluey', so as to differentiate between the different remotes. Then Bluey morphed into Pluie and there you have it.

We have a Big Block of Cheese Day mug. This one. Yes - those cartographers were brilliant - just one of many small little inconsequential scenes that still manage to make you think long and hard.

I didn't really realise what a great actress Elisabeth Moss is until I watched Mad Men - but those post kidnap scenes (the horseriding, the smiling at the cameras) were amazing.

It's a shame Big Block of Cheese Day stopped - they were the best episodes. I've been a big believer in the Peter's Projection map since then.

Josh: These guys find Brigadoon on that map, you'll call me, right?
C.J.: Probably not.
Josh: Okay.

Josh is crap at Big Block of Cheese Day.

I wish they'd carried on with Big Block of Cheese Day, too. I guess it could have seemed a bit gimmicky (and probably not Emmy-grabbing enough, now we all understand that process a bit better ) but equally there are enough issues of that nature to have kept it going without becoming stale.

We used to have a Peters Projection map on the wall when I was little - I was quite surprised anyone was surprised to see it

As per CJ - you can't show that!

Cartographer - why not?

CJ - because it's freaking me out!!

I would just like to say how much I am enjoying this thread ladies. I am of those watching it currently - DH thought it was too soon to start from the beginning again for the gazillionth time so we're now on Rubicon and Homeland, having watched Borgen as well. All good stuff but not the same.

Will have another go at attempting to persuade him that It Is Time to start WW again soon...

It is always time to start watching again. You can always do a pick'n'mix, you don't have to watch in order!

Josh IS crap at Big Block of Cheese Day, that's true.

He gets let off having an assignment in both of them, for a good reason in the first one and then no real reason in the second one?

But i like to believe that he messed up in spectacular fashion in the one that would have taken place before the series began, and insulted someone so badly that Leo won't let him loose with his own assignment anymore.

I did enjoy the banter around the second one

Josh: How the hell old were you when you were protesting?

Toby: (with dignity) My sisters took me.

And the part where Leo whacks Josh on the head for "Total Crackpot Day" is always enjoyable.

Oh yes, 'Who knew babies came with hats?' sniff

Here's a trivia question from DH - he thinks he's right.

What brand of scotch do Toby and Lord John Malmebury go off in search of, in the episode where the Irish politician is due to make a visit ( and Lord John is sent to object)

Sorry for random change of subject, btw

Lagavulin - courtesy of Google

Oh, CaveMum you cheat! You're right of course.

I think we'll have to I vigilante these questions in future

Aha spell check!!! Invigilate.

[sticks out tongue]

Any more nonsense like that young lady and I'll revoke the scores for the modules on electoral math! Then you'll have to resist WW 101 entirely!

Wait a minute - isn't that the ideal outcome for this in any case?

Question: Which one is Larry and which one is Ed?

Oh no! You cannot ask that question and certainly no-one can answer it They are both Larry and both Ed, it has to be!

It's like asking which came first the chicken or the egg? The question is unanswerable - they both exist at the same time in a state of ed-ness and larry-ness at the same time - do even they know?!

They do know themselves, because when Sam is trying to make everyone look for errors in the "tell-all" book some former member of staff has written, he gives everyone chapters about themselves and one of the first "mistakes" found is that Ed says "I'M Ed, he's Larry" (or possibly it was vice versa ).

And CJ says sometimes she doesn't know that.

But I can never ever make it stay in my head which one identifies themselves as which.

I may have to go back to accepting they are one entity: EdandLarry

Wiki has a lot to say on Ed and Larry. I'm taking some comfort from the fact that while we are all sad WW nerds, the person who wrote that Wiki page is considerably sadder .

Who would've thought they merited their very own wiki page? Although I read it all and am still no clearer on which is which (pictures might've helped!)

Thanks for that Hassled. I now feel secure in the knowledge that I am not meant to know. Shakespearean parallels and all that

I know which is which, do you want me to tell you? ::taps nose::

OK - google image of the actors' names tell me that the Asian one is Ed. Taller goofy looking one is Larry. Phew.

Also, a bit of stupid trivia, the actor who played Ed, who is, indeed the Asian one, was also in the movie Serenity.

::Tee get's her geek on::

<happy now>

I am honestly tempted to go hack Wikipedia and change their entries so Ed becomes Larry and vice versa. You can't mess with the myth of Ed-and-Larry.

And yes, Olivia, there is a definite Ant and Dec quality about them

Ah, but how do you know that wasn't done already tribpot?

Ok all you officianados....season 5 ..no exit.can someone pleaSe tell me if there was something in the office or not...watched it a few times and still can't figure it out.....thick emoticon

I watched Celestial Navigation and Lies, damn lies and statistics this evening

DH is distinctly unimpressed with watching them again (even though he loves TWW!!) but I told him tough luck....

Plan in my head is to watch two episodes from series 2 tomorrow evening.

I can't do a pick 'n mix, I have to watch in order [sad anal emoticon].
I can fast forward but don't think I can actually skip, although I don't think I've even tried. <Sigh> there's no help for me

I watched Lies Damn Lies this evening, Yes I'm quick, last day of half term and I'm in bed with a cold so I'm scooting through them nicely

I'll be back tomorrow. I will have a peek at S5 re: the office

Hello everyone!
A longtime lurker and a huge (if not so knowledgable) West Wing fan.

I have loved this thread and the others that I have found here. I am currently exploring all the links that you have posted.

Now one of my favourite episodes, not yet mentioned, is the one where Toby (dear, dear Toby) gets a visit from his Father.
It makes me weep every time. I love all the Christmas episodes, but this is my favourite. I love the fact that he listened to Josh when he urged him to try and work it out. Josh having lost his father is probably the only one who could have said it to my Toby without getting eaten alive.

frasersmummy: They told most of the staff it was a live drill exercise and then when Ron and The President were alone Ron tells him it was based on a real incident and they had a guy under surveillance. So there probably wasn't anything in the office. That time...

I just scrolled fast past the EdLarry posts - agree with tribpot that you can't mess with the myth!

Re the tularemia, I posted this on our last WW thread:

I watched it again and still have questions. I had thought the threat was real and the "live drill" was their SOP in such cases, i.e. pretend so as not to cause panic.

But then there's the exchange between Bartlet and Ron Butterfield where it appears that Bartlet knew there would be a live drill but didn't know when. "You didn't know it would be tonight, sir." "I knew it when you showed up."

That seems to suggest the SS had anticipated or intercepted (Deliakis thought maybe in the mailing room, seems probable) contamination by tularemia and the live drill was a response to that. "T won't get through again" said Ron.

If it were a drill in response to an attack why were they still decontaminating the car when Debbie left? The tularemia was supposed to come from Charlie's recycling bin so why decontaminate the car when there was nothing to find there?

Well that's as clear as mud

Toby - great scene with Charlie:

"I don't know what kind of salad it is. I'm eating a salad, okay? I'm doing
it. Do I have to know the names? There's no difference between them. It's a bowl of weeds... Here I am eating a salad, which by the way, you could
cover this thing in barbecue sauce and it would still taste like the ground."

I always thought the tulamera episode was real because the contamination came form the envelope in Charlie's bin BUT he had brought that item of post in from his home - it was his, not POTUS's, so had never been through the mailroom.....

I still wonder every time I watch that episode.... So many twists in the explanations to different people....

True. Forgot that. There was a lot of fuss about Debbie getting "spritzed" as well. Maybe the SS were making the point to staffers that threats could come from anywhere.

I'll wonder again when I come to it. No hardship, love every scene with Debbie

Like looking in the mirror, I guess!

Debbie is one of my favourite characters. I love the bit where she says to the President: "In my defence, I was high".

And when it turns out she was the one who found Charlie and paid dearly for it ... <begins weeping anew>

One of my favourites too <states the obvious> Love the bit where Sam prods Bartlet by asking, "Was she funny?" and Bartlet runs through the offices, even though he'd said the agents should stop her at the door so she wasn't going to vanish

More trivia: what other Big Block of Cheese Day assignments were there? The one where CJ got the Cartographers for Social Equality?

Toby?
Ed and Larry? These can be any way round as are Ed and Larry
Donna?

No cheatin' now y'all!

Sam got one where a guy wanted to abolish the penny....

or as toby calls is .. the throw open our doors and discuss things with people that we could care less about day ..

glad i'm not the only one who doesnt "get " the virus thing.. guess that might be the point.. in this situation only the president and his detail would have the whole answer

Might be sarcastic. Dunno, sounds odd anyway.

Toby gets sent to the Anti-capitalist protest and meets the wonderful cop.

Donna gets out of it cos she has her visit from Steph to take to Sam.

I thought that was one of tobys fines moments at that rally ... I'm just gonna sit here and read my paper... brilliant

Because, Olivia, Queen of MN and WW, we are being sarcastic.

And/or we are too, um, ignorant, to understand it makes no sense!

I, myself, say 'couldn't care less' as it actually makes sense!

Oh Tee, "Olivia, Queen of MN and WW" - luvverly bit of flattery

We may yet get a WW emoticon

Nothing like the smell of suck up on a Tuesday afternoon.

If anyone would like to suggest two episodes from series 2, I shall watch them this evening

Being fairly new to TWW, and only having watched it once all through, I am open to suggestions!!!

Stackhouse Filibuster and 2 Cathedrals would be my two from Season 2.

Well two pink shoes, you should just start at the beginning and keep going! From memory, aren't the first two of S2 'in the shadow of the gunmen'?

<rushes off to check as she may have just embarrassed herself with bad WW knowledge>

We're immune to embarrassment here, getting. And accusations of nerdiness.

<defiant>