Mumsnet Talk

I think I'm going to feel like a bad mother.

Why not just go the whole way on being a non tiger mother like me -am watching celebrity big brother and finishing off Xmas chocolate

Hmm I think it is the other way around sailorsgal. These people are crazy and there is bound to be a serious backlash

I'm watching from the inadequate parents' corner - with a left over tub of Ben & Jerry's as a substitue for Christmas choc, which I've already scoffed. Happy days.

I thought about watching it but thought it would just make me feel tired

DS 5 has maths, reading, spelling and has to learn a poem for homework and I think its too much.

Good BigFatSpider, you can be my friend, not that a tiger mom would have time for socialising imbetween teaching their 3 year old Plato and quantum theory

they scare me, my children are going to be failures. In their eyes

How many times a year did they say for the play dates?

Jeez, it's all a bit much isn't it!

Am watching, I love programmes about other people's parenting..

<<nosey cow emoticon>>

I don't know about ds but dh could do with a schedule like that.

Oh my word.

Funny how the dental receptionist is so pushy? Wonder how she'd feel if her ds wants to work in customer service?

Poor little thing

Excellent, Pocksrule. Here, have a spoon and dig in

I feel so sad for these children - I did a lot of music as a child (multiple instruments to Grade 8 by pre/early teens) but I was never forced or expected to maintain such a heavy academic schedule alongside the music like these children are.

I think we'll stick to Biff and Kipper with DS, and bashing out sad and happy music on the piano!

it worries me as to how they would react if one of their children was discovered to have a learning delay/disorder which meant that they would never "succeed"?

Sitting here exhausted, wondering where the hell I went right. I am simply a different species from these Tiger mothers. Like, a wretched failure. Instead of revising DD has gone off partying (sucks to trying to encourage self discipline, failed there didn't I?) DD 2 has just lost her job days before getting the keys to a rented flat. She didn't get Honours in her degree because she didn't turn up for the exams. Encouraged all three children in music but none of them would practice despite me supporting them. Have encouraged and supported all the way along and now just feel depressed when the children of friends go off to Oxbridge, play rugby for Wales, do charity work (DD2 would flog me on ebay to get money for clothes), stick at any job they can get to support themselves. I am a decent, hard working mother who enjoys a good laugh, has her own interests etc. How did I produce children who I have failed to convince that if they want anything in life they will have to work for it and who would rather watch rubbish like The OC or 90210 than participate in any form of exercise or hobby of any kind? Sorry, vent and rant over. Have to stop watching this programme - these mothers cause me to feel utterly, utterly useless.

Thompson it is the difference between supporting and forcing, the difference between learning from your mistakes and growing to being paralysed with fear of making mistakes. Life has many paths and honours degrees account for only one. Have faith your kids will come out good with such a loving mum as you

You and me both Thompson...
DS has uni exams next week in maths. He is currently in his room on xbox after getting out of bed at 1pm!

He is 19. Its too late..I have failed to -brainwash- tigerize him...

Am sure your children smile though TT. They'll do ok.

DS2 is 11 and still up watching this. He should be in bed but am hoping he'll realise how easy he has it!

god have watched for 20mins and I am exhausted already
those kids are knackered

Her husband needs to grow a pair.

How old is that kid?

He is 6.

It's interesting how it's the women who are the driving forces. The men seem to just do as they're told, much like the children.

It was sad how that boy said the best part of the day was going to bed.

This just isn't healthy, is it

19 isn't too late. I have friends who succeeded in their 30s upwards. I'm not one of those although did work for a long time before dcs. Didn't even think no job was an option but that wasn't my upbringing just in me I suppose?

DS1 is very bright, doesn't need to try. DS2 isn't academic but extrememly practical. I know they'll find their way hope.

I can't understand this mother talking now? She knows it's wrong doesn't she?

I thought this program was going to make me feel inadequate but it's not.
Just feel sorry for those kids

Oh I know Sidge Poor boy saying he gets to rest then. So very wrong.

I knew I would feel all judgy, its based on that book that came out a couple of years ago. I loathe this type of parenting. We have a few tigers at our school. I am just a flea-ridden moggy

I feel most hopeful for Juliette, with her mixed heritage - think her dad will temper the efforts of tiger mom to hothouse her. I hope!

I like Juliette's dad.

Yes or Juliette will feel pulled in both directions? Those two are so opposite.

poor boy now. Red pen on his work.

YY Pocks - suspect I'm not even worthy to be the flea on the mangy old moggy!

And happy birthday to him

also rather meh at the banker sending Hugo to Mandarin classes because of the way the global economy is going dahling.

Agree that things are ultra competitive though in the workplace.

Yes can sort of understand learning the language but the hothousing is bad.

Anyway, it's over now.....and breath. Shame those kids can't

I can understand where one of those mums is coming from. She said there is no safety net in Taiwan (IIRC) so they have to crack on. I feel scared for my dc's future (LP, few family members, government cutbacks, economy going down the plughole) and know I'll need to push them to give them a chance of doing well.

But I let them play with mud and watch tv too. And we don't have room for a piano and I can't even play chopsticks anyway.

This programme has made me think.

If I was living in China, due to marriage or work, I imagine I would try to bring up my dcs roughly in line with my own upbringing, rather than adopting the Chinese style. I did well academically without any pressure from my parents.

I think these parents cannot reject the way they were brought up, as they are expected to respect their parents above all else, so logically they honour their parents by continuing the parenting style, even if it as odd with most of British society.

There is clearly a happy medium between extreme hot housing and letting dcs play computers all day...

Apologies to anyone Chinese reading above post, I have never been to China and all my impressions are based on novels, tv etc... so could be barking up the wrong tree.

Or just barking.

i think that for many of these women their own parents made sure it was drummed into them just how much they had to sacrifice to allow them an education.

It was explained to them just how important an education is.

I don't think that is a bad thing. I think education is often undervalued in this country. we take our free system for granted much of the time.

but the hothousing and "5 good hours" is, imho damaging to a childs social development.

I am of Chinese ethnicity, and to some extent, not as much as the mums on the programme, my parents were stricter than average.

However I thought the programme was very unfair, as it seems to have deliberately chosen three rather extreme examples, and then only show some parts of their lives. I'm afraid that it can only encourage dislike of Chinese people as a whole.

By and large Chinese parents have exactly the same fears, hopes, desires, for their children as parents anywhere. Before being too critical of even the mums who appeared in the programme, it should be noted that China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. are not welfare states, and there is no safety-net for people who are jobless.

The Geordie husband of one of the women was fine - but the Chinese husband of one of the others, who enjoyed gardening - was also much more relaxed about how his child was doing. But I expect that won't be noticed much.

I was very apprehensive about this programme when it was announced. My fears have proven justified. If even a generally polite and civilised community such as Mumsnet can react in such a negative way - "these people are crazy" -- I am not daring to go on to the male-dominated forums I am more used to, and see the hatred and dislike of Chinese people which will surface there.

FrankH you are right the programme definetely had its own agenda (one of most compulsive rather than unbiased viewing) and clearly much editing was done. I also think it failed to highlight the reasons for such hothousing which would have been both interesting and invited a more sympathetic portrayal.

And fwiw I am sure we all know many non-Asian families that are not dissimilar.

FrankH that is very interesting to hear. It would be equally possible to produce a programme showing several white British families, Asian families or whatever with similarly strict views towards academic achievement. Or indeed families who are extremely laissez-faire.

I watched it and somewhere inside I felt a little jealous if their drive and staying power to push their children.
I was brought up in a 'school Work first' family and was expected to go to uni and get a good job etc and, although we read everyday with the

Oops!
..children, and homewoek is done straight after snacks, the rest of their time is spent playing and I often feel Luke I am not doing enough for them to get them through the tough job markets ahead.
But then I think of how I rebelled and became a uni drop out and I want them to actually achieve and be self motivated and Di better than me so I know pushing may not Work.
Then again, we are seen as strict with regards to rules, so I am permanently confused as to what is right. I think I am slack, esp compared to tiger mums, but friends think I am strict?
But then I do make the children go to swimming when they dint want to as I think it is a life skull they need. Maybe I am too strict??
They don't do tutoring or any extra Work though.
Oh. And I am British.

I know Juliette's mum and she is lovely. She wants the best for her daughter and I think she is strikes a good balance.

What about the 100% caucasian parents who send their kidsto mandarin school though?

Agree to an extent, Frank, but I don't think that the attitude of the more 'relaxed' Chinese parent went unnoticed compared to the English father. If anything, Matthew's father seemed almost apathetic to me, to the point of giving up on having any opinion on Matthew's education/schedule as he knew it wouldn't be countenanced by his wife. Juliette's dad appeared relaxed yet still invested in her schooling, and in more of a partnership with his wife.

I absolutely understand the desperate position that families in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan can find themselves in with no welfare state, and how this translates into a desperate need to ensure their children have the best possible start. A programme like tonight's doesn't in any way make me 'dislike Chinese people'. It makes me grateful to be raising my son in a place where he will have access to a good education, with plenty of opportunity to 'advance' in any particular sphere should he show aptitude. I'm sad for children growing up alongside my DS who may be experiencing, IMHO, this rather insular view of a rounded education that the 'tiger moms' insist their DC conform to.

I'm of Chinese ethnicity too and I laughed so hard at tonight's programme cos I recognise all of it. It's amazing how some aspects of the Chinese culture stays the same throughout the world even though Chinese people themselves can come from such diverse backgrounds. I was brought up in the Asian country where the emphasis was very much on studying (and surprise, surprise, I had piano lessons too... ). My parents always stressed academic excellence. What the programme is not showing (though it was stated at one stage by the American mum that what drives her is how happy her kids are) is that underneath it all, there is also a lot of love!

I read an article about Lang Lang (the pianist whose father told him to 'kill' himself when he decided to give up playing the piano) and it was interesting how he said that yes, he think his father regrets being so hard on him but he made the point that what people forget is that through it all, his father never stopped loving him and he knew it.

My parents' expectations for us academically without question is that we have to go to uni and both my brother and I did that. We both did well academically but I also remember my father sitting down with us from a very young age every night to read with us and do our homework. I am grateful to my parents for having that expectation as I do think that once you have a degree, you have a great deal of freedom to choose what you want to do afterwards. There are extremes to every method of parenting and I laughed at a lot of the stuff tonight. I am a lot more relaxed with my two DCs (but am now thinking I should channel my inner tiger mum!) but I do have certain expectations I have of them that stems deep down culturally. So we shall see, my DCs are still little!

I think it'd take a racist person to dislike Chinese people based on that programme. I've seen other programmes with other cultures who are of a similar ilk. I also know caucasians who push their children too.

I find it interesting that in some European countries they leave schooling until much later yet interestingly their dcs do well too, on average. I think it's very sad to push tiny children. They are children after all. Play is a very important part of learning and should be paramount imo, not a mere extra.

It's important to remember that your child is like a blank canvas - Yes general play is fun, but piano can be too, as can swimming, maths etc, they don't know any different when they are young. The extras only become a chore if it is not the norm from the start.

I found the programme really interesting.It didn't make me dislike the chinese, but rather admire the sheer drive of the mothers.The're are some faults in the push for academic excellence though.Many of the children in Hk/China grow up as only children that are very highly educated.They is no emphasis on social skills at all.Consequently they are not able to get on with people and often do not do well in international corporations, and as well as they should do advancing up the ladder.I'm speaking from being married to a Chinese man and having lived in Asia for many years.My dh had a very unhappy childhood and this has very drammatically colored the way he brings up his kids[the total opposite].His sisters -one of whom was totally brilliant never got to become a professor because of her social awkwardness.They had no toys growing up.They never had friends round for 'play dates'.Their childhood has emotionally stymied all of them-to the extent of making disastrous marriages, bad career choices [and bad parenting].In hk children past the age of 3 are expected to study all the time.Kumon is very common, as is tuition from 4 years old.Children are not encouraged to play [my dc's were the only one playing in chinese playgrounds as they were all working upstairs].Coupled with over anxious parenting -the children were not allowed to learn to crawl, as the ground was dirty!.I am keen to see how the next generation of chinese kids will grow up.But i don't have the greatest of faith that this generation will be equiped to make the best decisions.Especially as China looks likjely to be the worlds next super power.
Finally i don't think this style of parenting is exclusive to chinese parents-mine were very similar.Not to the same extremes however but we were definitely pushed.

teta Sorry to hear your DH had such an unhappy childhood but like you acknowledged, that is extreme. Like you said, there are 'white' parents who do the same and so on with the other races. However, I have to admit I do have a dilemma - on one hand, yes, I want my kids to enjoy their childhood but on the other hand, to excel at a particular calling be it music or sport or academia, does require dedication and groundwork from young. My DS1 is almost 4 and as yet, he doesn't 'do' any organised sports, music or studying outside of what we do at playgrounds and as a family. And yes, I do know a parent whose child does music and sport classes already at 5 years of age and interestingly, she is white British married to a very laidback Chinese guy! We joked after the programme yesterday she is more 'tiger mum' than me!

I am hoping that as he develops his personality even more in the next year or so, we can see what area we might like him to do some proper classes in. It's not so much I want him to be the next Tiger Woods or anything (we are a bit late for that as I believe Tiger Woods started playing golf at 3! ), but I believe there is value in them learning from young the discipline to keep at something for more than 5 minutes and it does wonders for their self-esteem to be good at something. Like CinnamonStix said, they are a blank canvas and you need to instill in them values from young.

Also, I have to admit the reason we haven't started him (and his brother!) on extra classes yet is because I am lazy and the thought of having to ferry them around for all that is putting me off so I do admire those mothers in the programme for their drive too.

teta Sorry to hear your DH had such an unhappy childhood but like you acknowledged, that is extreme. Like you said, there are 'white' parents who do the same and so on with the other races. However, I have to admit I do have a dilemma - on one hand, yes, I want my kids to enjoy their childhood but on the other hand, to excel at a particular calling be it music or sport or academia, does require dedication and groundwork from young. My DS1 is almost 4 and as yet, he doesn't 'do' any organised sports, music or studying outside of what we do at playgrounds and as a family. And yes, I do know a parent whose child does music and sport classes already at 5 years of age and interestingly, she is white British married to a very laidback Chinese guy! We joked after the programme yesterday she is more 'tiger mum' than me!

I am hoping that as he develops his personality even more in the next year or so, we can see what area we might like him to do some proper classes in. It's not so much I want him to be the next Tiger Woods or anything (we are a bit late for that as I believe Tiger Woods started playing golf at 3! ), but I believe there is value in them learning from young the discipline to keep at something for more than 5 minutes and it does wonders for their self-esteem to be good at something. Like CinnamonStix said, they are a blank canvas and you need to instill in them values from young.

Also, I have to admit the reason we haven't started him (and his brother!) on extra classes yet is because I am lazy and the thought of having to ferry them around for all that is putting me off so I do admire those mothers in the programme for their drive too.

Missed it. Thankfully. I am already aware of my general lackadaisicalness and inadequacy. Leave me some comfortable delusions please!

It was extreme, and I agree with FrankH, BUT, as someone who is currently battling the dc finishing school at 4, spending approx 7 mins on homework and then staring at a screen for five hours, I think a bit of Tigering is a damn good thing. <sharpens claws>

I was brought up in HK and like teta's DH very very pushy parents. I think a lot of the things they did can't be applied in britian. Social services would be called for a lot of methods my parents used to discipline us. We accepted it because it's the same as what our peers got. Getting a lashing with the feather duster was normal. I rememebered cousin got dragged out from a family meal for the feather duster because she tried to forced her mum to eat a peking duck parcel. Our naughty step was the balcony. I remembered my brother being locked out in the balcony for a whole evening for not doing homework. Also you don't get upset about no playdates because no one has them. Everyone went (and still goes) to those tutorial schools. I was striked everytime I went back how there are posters of the kind "Mr Chan, star teacher of biology from Eton College" all over town. My very much younger cousin (about 10 now), started going to those tutorial schools from preschool. I think it's actually Kumon. He also started some music beethoven thing from a very young age too.

It's a very different culture to grow up. I will not wish to push the same to my DD.

Oh just to add the lang lang story is true. What his father did was competely not acceptable in British culture. But chinese parents back home would say 'well done'.

Hully I think you hit a sore sport for many parents there. If you have not instilled discipline in your kids from young, you cannot moan when they are adults that they are not motivated to do anything etc. How is scheduling in 30 minutes a day to sit down to do something (homework or sport or practising an instrument) a BAD thing? I know some of the parents on the programme were doing 3 hours a day but hey, if they have the patience to do it, then fair play to them!

I think I'll check this out on iplayer... Sounds like good old fashioned car crash telly. Perhaps slightly uncomfortable for me as I've only just realised at the ripe old age of 25 that academics aren't everything. My parents weren't tiger types, but I missed out on Real Life because schoolwork was all that mattered. I wonder now if they would've even liked me if I hadn't been a naturally intelligent child. I already feel like they look down on my 4.6yo because she can't read like I could by age 3.

The closest I got to pushy this winter was giving her another Little Einsteins DVD in her stocking. She has since mastered a demonstration of a diminuendo on the piano all by herself though

If anything this show might confirm to my anxious brain that I am doing the right thing by attempting to bring up my DCs as happy and well rounded individuals.

Forgot to add that, not sure what the school system is like now. But when I was at school, both primaries and secondaries are streamed. There were entrance exams for primaries. Mums fondly tells us we can do carries in arithmatics and say simple english words before primary because it's needed for primary school entrance exams. And for secondaries, your catchment has schools of different bands (5 bands iirc). And if you score well you go to a band 1 school, and if you score badly band 5.

If britian has a school system like this, do you think middle class mums will push a lot harder?

yyyyyyyyyyyyy

of course

But they'd lie about it

of course

I think you are right fuzzpig. For all the work Matthew was doing, I don't think he was that far on. The sums on his Kumon sheet were things like 57 - 5; not exactly difficult for a child of nearly 7. His mum seemed to make him do a lot of work but that is not the same as making a lot of progress. And according to the timetable, he was going on till 9 pm, which is a rather late bedtime for a school night.

Frank, I honestly don't think this look at extreme and rather quirky examples could make anyone dislike Chinese people.

I thought that the children were achieving great things, it was sad just how scheduled their lives were was really, really sad. I expect that the programme only showed what the producers considered to be the "worst" excesses, of course. I think we could learn a lot from the Chinese way of doing things and they could probably learn a lot from our way of doing things and find the balance somewhere in the middle.
I was a bit about how well the girl played the piano but for the 6 year old having to learn those spellings.

Onelittle, there are streams by ability at both the local primaries near here - both where my DC go and where I work, they stream from right through from Reception to year 6.

Really interesting to get the input of Chinese people on this thread. I am not Chinese, but do live in Hong Kong. My observation, as an outsider, is that Chinese culture is very achievement/hard work orientated and parents are very invested in their children, of whom they generally only have 1 or 2 (even in HK where there was never a 1 child policy). However, I think the people in this programme are extreme examples of tiger momishness and shouldnt be seen as the norm.

A couple of people have already touched on the fact that China and HK don't have expansive welfare states like the UK. That's certainly one factor contributing to why people want their kids to be the winners academically.

I think there's also the fact that the present decade is seen as China's "time" economically. There are always going to be periods in a country's history when social mobility and wealth accumulation are easier than others. For China, the next couple of decades are likely to be something of a sweet spot in that respect. Particularly in mainland China, the growth of the middle classes/professional jobs will be very significant. Therefore, you can't really blame parents for wanting their children to be able to capitalise on that and not get left behind on the farm, or doing poorly paid manufacturing jobs.

I'm not saying that I agree that a life filled with structured activities is the ideal situation, but I can see why it's come about. One downside is that it does probably limit creative/imaginative play. One of the commonly cited barriers to China's world dominance is that they are not very good at inventing stuff- just making it. I guess we'll see if that changes going forward.

Please please accept if you are a parent who RESPECTS your DCs and wants to treat them as you would wish to be treated you ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING!!! Regardless of race.

That's how we bought up our own DCs who are now totally successful hard working adults; they are doing what they WANT to do.

I TOTALLY disagree that we are blank canvases when we are born we bring genes with us (our DS is a gifted musician and artist he has been since 2 or 3 yrs. no one pushed him BTW but we made sure he had the right help when he needed it) If yr DC is unhappy with a certain subject then you can't MAKE them good at it especially if there's dyslexia or similar

Also if EVERYONE goes to uni to do academic work there won't be enough jobs for them (I think in Asia there are too many doctors now!!).

I'm watching it now on iplayer, very sad that she was telling a 6 year old that level 2b maths was not good - assuming she means level 2b on the national curriculum, that is great for a 6 year old.
Feeling a bit [smug emoticon] that my youngest was a 2a at that age without all the stuff that her son has to do though. Not something to be proud of, the being smug I mean, it was just the way they were at that age, god only knows where their maths ability comes from it - it's not from me.

I agree about the blank canvasses as well, they are so not blank canvasses. My 3 are all very artistic, very musical, very good at maths and science. I was a completely the opposite at school IMO and never lived up to my parents' expectations whereas my 3 are all those children that, irritatingly for their peers, are good at whatever they set their mind to. They haven't inherited that from me! I can cope with the maths but not to the extent that they can whizz through it and I am not at all musical or artistic.

I agree that they aren't blank canvasses. Some is nature, some is nurture. I don't think it's a bad thing to teach children good study habits, self-discipline and the importance of routine though but there needs to be a balance with other activities and time doing "nothing". Creativity in particular requires a lot of daydreaming and allowing the mind to wander.

My two eldest sons have had Chinese/HK students sharing accommodation with them at uni and boarding school and their (admittedly limited) observations are that they have zero personality or appetite for fun and larks, only communicate with one another (not a language thing, but a social preference) barely leave their rooms, study ALL THE TIME to an insane degree, never party, and basically just live to work. They rarely fit in in mixed student digs because they find them too lively and not conducive to studying.

My kids on the other hand, are all rather more like Thompson's - I could not have forced enocuraged any of them to do their piano practice if I'd tried. (Did try, and failed) Hence none of them play the piano or are competent at a language or excel particularly at any sport. It's a mine of half-hearted mediocrity round our house.

Oh, but we do plenty of creativity and letting our minds wander. Mind-wandering is practicially our Specialist Subject.

ppeatfruit You aren't a gifted musician or a budding artist because of your genes; you might not have pushed your DC but you gave them the tools to learn. If you give a child a football instead of a paintbrush, I'm sure they'd prefer sport to painting. I think children (who do not have learning difficulties) reject certain things because of how it is thrusted upon them, clearly it's not been made fun or encouragement wasn't given. Obviously there are many other factors to it, I don't really want to digress to nature/nurture.

My cousin is 10 and she's been doing Kumon since 5 or something. It is incredible the kind of maths she can do; some of the stuff resembles GCSE Maths higher paper. Because she started young and it became a norm, she really enjoys it. She loves that she's smarter than the other kids at school and is already set on what she wants to do at Uni.

Thanks for all the considered responses to the programme. These would be so different on the male-dominated forums I am used to - not that the ones I visit most are discussing the programme, as I suspect most men wouldn't have watched it.

Yes, perhaps only racists would have had their dislike of Chinese increased by the programme, but IMHO the boundary between racists and non-racists is not clear-cut. Few people are irremediably racist but I suspect that no one is entirely immune to racist influences throughout their lives. It may be only too easy for dislike for the way individuals of a particular "race" behave, to turn into a blanket racist denigration of that race as a whole - such as the rock-singer Morrissey describing Chinese as a "sub-species" because he didn't like the way some people were mistreating animals in China.

Thus programmes such as the one we are discussing, with its biased production and editing, could have influences on particular people in their perception of people of another race - could indeed sow the seeds of racist dislike and hatred.

Incidentally, British mums need have no fear that the programme would make them feel inadequate - rather they could be left with a feeling of effortless superiority over these crazy Chinese tiger mothers. Is it a coincidence that the most sympathetic character portrayed was the white husband of one of the women?

I may be being over-sensitive, but if so, I hope you will forgive me in my circumstances, which I could detail if anyone is interested. Actually, I am culturally almost totally British, and regard myself as British of Chinese ethnicity. I think the UK is still an admirable country, and wouldn't prefer to live anywhere else. I believe that the British people in general are among the most civilised and tolerant in the world, but there is a large and significant minority who are highly xenophobic. This is not confined to the BNP types, but includes many who read such papers as the Daily Mail and Daily Express.

Fellatio.Yes,its funny how the Chinese agree kids are a blank canvas.I don't agree at all.One of my 4 is very musical and a brilliant natural dancer.No one has ever taught, him he was just born with the ability.My other son cannot dance at all.I do agree that early learning can help kids though.My eldest studied mandarin virtually every day in her hk school.She hated it and was very bad at it [she was put in the mixed race class and we did not speak it at home] and fell massively behind.However now back in the uk she has picked up french very quickly and loves it [likewise my younger ones who went to a bilingual nursery in hk].I think there is value in early learning [but i used to hate seeing tiny kids playing kumon violin in displays in hk!]
I have also picked up some 'chinese' habits.Two of my dc's are tutored [one is 7!].I agree that state schools don't push kids [my 12 year old has very little homework] and have asked the tutor to set her some [she is in the top groups in a good state school].I also encourage my kids in practising the piano [but not to the extent of making them cry].I bribe them -stick and carrot!.

I didn't think this was too car crash at all. I quite liked all the mothers on the programme. They obviously adored their children and wanted what was best for them, they spent a lot of time with them and talked to them and that imvho is what shapes a child most. They could, also, to a certain extent, laugh at themselves. I also think in my neck of the woods (W London) there are just as many mothers of all races behaving in exactly the same way - especially when it comes to grammar school and private school entrance exams.

according to my student friend, who studies with a lot of Chinese students - a C grade is know as an 'Asian F' !

And I'm afraid FellatioNelson's, or rather her sons, observations on Chinese/HK students only proves the point I have been making.

Yes, we people of Chinese ethnicity have zero personality - after all we aren't fully human (as Morrissey would point out), we are merely learning machines with absolutely no sense of enjoyment of life etc.etc.etc. No wonder we all look alike!

I obviously don't know the precise details of the students which Fellatio describes. However I have some experience of meeting students from China/HK in universities. Many are quite shy, but will respond to kindness. Perhaps if some British students tried to get to know them, they might find a few traces of personality present.

Not a coincidence at all, Frank - rather, entirely understandable that viewers who are not of Chinese ethnicity would mostly identify with the British father whose attitude to parenting is closer to what 'we' recognise!

Must say this comes across as a very raw subject for you - yes, I'd be interested to hear more of your background/circumstances if you're happy to share

I think that's a bit unfair on Fell, Frank.

People stating their own experience doesn't make them racist. There are Chinese children boarding at my dc's school, and they too study extremely hard and only talk to each other. There is no judgment involved in this, it is just how it is. My ds has two girls in his math class that he sits next to and talks to, but they are very very shy and scream with laughter and then talk to each other in whispers. Perhaps in time the boundaries will break down.

FrankH, this is the latest style of TV documentary unfortunately. There was a recent prgramme about Jewish culture and life and as a Jewish woman I cringed whilst watching it.

At least this programme was spared a disparaging voiceover which has also become obligatory.

Yes, but Hully, programmes such as these hardly help to pull down boundaries (even if they don't nec. create them). For example, before Frank pointed it out, I hadn't thought about how the only 'decent' (or make that 'normal') person on there was the white dad. The other dad seemed like a sap, and the husband of the piano-pushed kid was absent.
Having said that, I think any normal viewer would realise this was a stereotype and a programme showing a certain way of parenting. Not jump to the conclusion that all Chinese parents are like this. I mean, that's telly innit.

It's a hard one. It was made on the back of the Tiger Mother book and attendant media blah de blah and was obviously sold on that basis, so it had to be about that particular type. It would be a bit odd if it was called Tiger Mothers and was about Pinot Grigio chugging Asian mothers who said, "Oh don't worry about homework darling, go on your x-box like a normal English child" wouldn't it?!

Hullygully I'm not accusing Fellatio of racism. I'm commenting on the way she and her sons have described their Chinese/HK classmates.

Yes there are boundaries which are not easy to break down. But that shouldn't necessarily lead to the assumption that these Chinese students have "zero personality". Perhaps they do, but sometimes give them the benefit of the doubt.

(Incidentally, in case anyone is wondering, I am quite aware of what the word "Fellatio" means - we aren't all naive geeks with no knowledge of life - well, I might be, but not that naive)

BigFatSpider Yes, I admit it's something about which I might be being over-sensitive, but perhaps a few of the other posts on this thread might slightly excuse this, given that it's the sort of thing I've come across over and over again in my long experience of life (over 63 years) in this country.

I'll take up your kind invitation to describe my background later on when I have more time to post. It's quite a long story.

Exactly, H. Anyone knew what to expect before turning on. That's why I don't watch much tv. Load of old tosh. Hang on, that's another thread, isn't it.

Sorry, by H, I meant Hully. Slow typer.

I didn't think they came across particularly badly, really?

The banker mum with the older dc was a bit driven and scary (and interesting that there was no dh around, as far as we could see), but the other two women seemed to strike a reasonable balance between being ambitious for the dc but obviously also having chosen to be with quite laid-back blokes. They were quite insightful into their own issues as well, i thought, again with the more affluent mum a bit more rigid and humourless about it.

Matthew's timetable was rather mad, but his mum did seem to balance it out with her more humourous side. I got the impression she wasn't nearly as rigid as she seemed at first sight.

I don't think anyone was wondering whether or not you knew what fellatio was, Frank...

Moving on, I do see your point, of course, but I wonder what you think the answer might be?

vjg13 Yes, stereotyping of other "races" is not confined to British stereotyping of Chinese. Indeed there is stereotyping of British people in other cultures - however most of that is actually distinctly favourable towards the British, and deservedly so .

I wonder how many people of Romany ethnicity have been annoyed by all the "Big fat Gypsy" stuff!

Didn't see all the programme but if we had the time/money/drive then I'm sure we'd try and push for our children to succeed. There still have to be plumbers/bricklayers/radiographers/air-traffic-control operators tho. Not everyone can be a tri-lingual Head of Trading for the Bank of Wherever

Frank, Frank, Frank - NO NO NO - distinctly favourable BECAUSE we're in Britain. Go abroad and you'll get a different take and the home culture will think itself the best and the poor old English as bad-dressers, poor-cooks and a bit odd.

Hell, go to Scotland or Wales and you'll hear bad stuff against the English. Humans are just odd, eh.

zumm Actually the image of GB is still very good in many countries. In China, British culture and products are very fashionable among the young middle-class people. Similarly in India. Programmes such as Downton Abbey are very popular abroad.

In the USA, speaking with an English accent immediately makes a favourable impression. I have personal experience of this, as has my niece, now married to an American and living there.

As for Wales and Scotland, they're Celts, supposedly, so they must be superior!

Well Frank the impression of GB is not great in many other countries. You should hear what myFrench friends think of some (which generalises into all) English people/food/customs/dress.

What impression would you like to be out there about the Chinese Frank? What do you think is the correct one?

I think the Chinese mothers were great and I actually think Juliette has the worst prospects of all because once she gets a bit older laid-back geordie dad will always side with her when she will not want to do work.

As for FNelson's description of Chinese students: FNelson, please don't euphemise binge drinking to the extent of passing out in the street and having alcohol-related liver disease by age 25 as "partying"; practical jokes ending up in criminal damage and A&E as "larks" etc. And as for a culture that is able to produce uni students who instead of all this study - Britain should all learn from that culture.

Yes AllieZ I thought that despite the 'extreme' parenting methods, the mothers came across as loving mothers first and foremost.

Yes Alliez, I absolutely agree with you, and I did type a very long post in reply to Frank, saying that most of the students I am talking about probably go home with tales of how British kids are lazy, loud, thick, lacking in self-discipline, and spend their whole lives drunk, watching trash on
TV, or sleeping around. But of course that would be a negative stereotype and a crass generalisation, albeit true for an embarrassingly large chunk of British young people, from a foreigner's perspective.

I did make all sorts of other observations as well, about the cultural differences in parenting/education, and the possible reasons for them, and the benefits and drawbacks of both styles, but I deleted the whole thing. I get so weary of not being able to freely explore these things without something I say getting misconstrued as racism, and Frank was starting to sound a tad chippy, what with the 'no wonder they all look the same' comment. I just don't have the energy or the inclination for it today!

The documentary did feed into some of the China-hype that's so prevalent at the moment: 'oh look at the Chinese, never noticed them before, look at how they're taking over the world there with their Kumon maths and violin lessons and 5 hours of homework'. China's been around for 5,000 years but somehow Western documentary makers are only noticing it now... there is too much hype about how different and strange China is.

IME, all cultures value education and hard work and tradition so Chinese culture is no different in that regard. All that's different is that China is a large country, a competitive economy with no safety net and also Chinese people living in the West are influenced heavily by the immigrant experience, which is usually one of hard graft. I watched a Storyville documentary by a Chinese film-maker about children in a Chinese school and the parents were perfectly normal, more relaxed and not a tiger mom in sight. In fact the children featured were quite indulged, as they were only children. They did work hard at school, of course, and had a lot of homework but were allowed to play as well and socialise. It wasn't as extreme as the 'tiger mom' stereotype.

50 years ago, a documentary about British kids at a public school would have shown them being forced to play rugby in the pouring rain, studying Latin and Greek for hours and following military-style discipline as they were toughened up for life. The only reason 'the West' is different now is because of the liberalism that developed after the 1960s. People are the same everywhere with the same goals for their children, I think, although they may have different ways of achieving those goals.

I've lived in China and the study ethic is very different from here, so I wasn't surprised by the programme. I also teach a lot of Chinese university students so I am very aware of the differences in education systems and teaching techniques. It seemed quite representative to me. Chinese parents take education more seriously than British ones tend to, and I think it's something to admire. Obviously these cases were a little extreme but each to their own - better than the other extreme.

FrankH do you think any give a stuff how Romany people feel?
Theres all kinds of Rom and I guess all kinds of Chinese?

Some of us are big on education - just not through Gaudja schools.
We watched it because everone thought Kumon would be a big deal and my kids do a (longer) Rom version of Kumon every day - even today - which is our Christmas day. (Baxtalo Bozhik! Baxtalo Krallis Divus! to you all. ) They think they should have today off!

I think theres no point getting worried about how people see you as a race - because they will see you how they want too if thats how they are and we all have our prejudices - otherwise we wouldnt be doing things differently from each other.

poor poor kids, where is the fun? where are the silly family jokes and usual interactions.

think stick with my own happy healthy fun loving, working well ., normal sociable popular loving kids..

I wasn't insulted at all btw. I thought all the mothers came across as very devoted. If you have lived in a chinese country, you'd see the parallel in some of the things the tiger mums do, if only a bit extreme. But the study hard culture is indeed very ingrained. Another tidbit I remember now is I got books as xmas presents for years when I was a baby.

I mean young child. Got baby all on my brain atm because it's friday afternoon and end of work week and I can spend all weekend with my LO

thebody That's rather naive of you to say that... Do you seriously think they will make a programme about 'tiger mums' and show family jokes and usual interactions? Ha ha. I actually saw quite a few humorous interactions between the parents and kids... And who is to say they are not happy, healthy, fun loving, working well, normal sociable and popular loving kids?

I just don't see that this is all that different or unique to Chinese culture, to be honest. Getting books for Christmas is totally normal - I did too. Most cultures want their children to be well-educated but if there is a difference in Chinese culture, it might be in the approach to education. There seems to be a prevalence of learning by rote in Chinese educational systems, possibly because that's the only way to learn Chinese characters, for example, so that has influenced the whole educational experience.

That said, learning by rote was the norm in the West until recently too. I had an old-fashioned education (in Ireland - by nuns!) and remember learning Irish grammar by rote when I was only 7 years old. We had charts on the wall at school with the declensions of the three types of verbs and the irregular verbs as well. I still remember them to this day... We had to learn the times tables by rote as well, dates in History etc. From what I hear, schooling has changed now to emphasise independent exploration of ideas, creativity etc. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing as my DS isn't old enough to be at school yet.

I'm half chinese so have a foot in both camps. I don't agree that Chinese people don't have personalities as mentioned upthread, they will just not let themselves go because it is just not the done thing. Nobody wants to offend or lose face.It would be a bit like an english person going to China, they may not know what is okay/acceptable so would/should err on the side of caution.

Also the culture is far less involved with alcohol, their idea of fun is just different. Mahjong, blood on the table as we say.

I have worked in Universities for years and we have a lot of Chinese students now, they often come to me as they see me as an Auntie. I have been asked many times " why do people get drunk". It's just a different culture, I say celebrate the differences and feel actually very privileged to have both English and Chinese relatives, makes for some rather hilarious family get togethers.

I haven't watched the programme but will look on catch up.

InMyChime it's the Confusius way of learning. I remember having to memorise pieces of literature by memory. Not sure what they do here, but certainly when I went to NZ, they never made me memorise shakespeare.

Well, Irish nuns must be influenced by Confucius then because my entire education was learning by rote as well...!

Admittedly things were on the cusp of change by the time I went through primary school (1980s) but there were still some of the old nuns around. They would have given any tiger mom a run for her money - one memory is of a friend getting rapped on the knuckles with a ruler 3 times because she dared to be creative and decorate a page where she'd been practising her letters instead of just writing out by rote as instructed... we also had to memorise Shakespeare and poetry in Irish once we were older. I think the system in Ireland has changed a lot now though, since the 1990s.

As a chinese british woman I watched the programme and laughed so hard at times as it reminded me of my own childhood, my parents were uber strict yet as grandparents my kids view them as the fun ones whilst call their English ones strict! Education is important and in some ways I think there is an element of tiger mum in me as I generally don't let my kids quit things and they do have to do their homework and try hard at school but I don't think this is a Chinese thing, as I often meet mums of all backgrounds who could be called serious tigers, mums who expect their toddlers to eventually attend Cambridge and get into top selective schools, who have tutors on tap and attend hours of sports practice regardless of weather!! I'm more of a ginger cat compared to them!
I personally thought most of them were quite nice, the quiet husband was actually quite sensitive to what was happening and in my mind was taking the right approach, bending when the wind blows but when it stops standing tall to offer the son something to lean on, Matthew clearly loves his parents and they him.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere! I know friends who felt their parents should have pushed them more and others that felt they were pushed too much but ultimately, most of us are fine!

Having watched this and read the book,I have definately taken positives away from it.
Previously I felt that primary aged children should not have homework and do all their learning in school,and that home time is play time.
However, I have come away admiring the tiger mothers dedication and drive in wanting to do their best to help their children achieve their potential. While I wouldn't personally pursue this to extremes,it has taught me that my approach has been to do with my own laziness in reality,rather than anything else!
It seems that to get something worth having,you have to put a certain amount of effort in - you don't get owt for nowt!
I really can see myself now investing half an hour a day,or something,in doing some extra spelling or whatever with the kids over and above our usual quarter of an hour or so of unenthusiastic () set homework per day.

That won't hurt them or me.

I enjoyed the programme and the book by Amy Chua. I viewed them as an opportunity to learn/understand a certain groups world view. Granted I'm from a different generation (born in 70's), but growing up in the Caribbean I raised in a slightly similar manner. While we may not have had written schedules we never allowed socialise during week days (ie play dates etc) and we only were allowed to watch Evening news during term time. On returning from school we had nap, then dinner, then our mom went through our school bags then we did home work supervised by her and chores were fitted in between. We were thought that school work came first and foremost. While by many peoples standards these mums are extreme, its not only Chinese mothers who apply this methodology (as Amy stated in her book). Personally such a rigours schedule would to work not work for me and my family. Neither my husband nor I care to be that strict. However, I do believe in the ole adage, to each his own. We can all learn something from each other. While we do no have to apply such methods in its entirety there are are elements of if that many children today would benefit from, eg routine and structure.

I think the show is the equivalent of the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding horror. Same extreme slice of life presented as normal for an entire ethnic group, which is a shame because stereotyping is never helpful.

In the US, which doesn't have much of a safety net besides joining the military when you leave school with no third level education available to you, midle class parents of all ethnicities spend a fortune and pretty much all their time schlepping their children around to various activities and lessons all afternoon every afternoon and on weekends too. I knew a family that was up to their ears in Irish dancing, which is where the Irish and Irish-American tiger 'moms' were to be found in droves. On top of homework, extra academic classes and several hours of dancing practice were the norm for the children.

Many immigrant groups in the US, including Chinese, are very anxious to take advantage of what is offered, educationally-speaking, and push their children. Many also feel it is important to keep their children in touch with their native culture. I knew Polish and Russian families whose children spent their entire Saturday year round at Russian or Polish language class, with homework assigned... Many come from cultures where education has traditionally been valued as the only way out of poverty or obscurity, Russia-Eastern Europe, Ireland, Nigeria, Phillippines and China being obvious examples of ethnicities I came across where parents were not afraid to say "Homework first/ here's a list of Ivy League universities you will be able to choose from when you are 17" to their 6 year olds and to insist that homework and studying were done first thing, consistently and without fail.

There are plenty of Irish parents in Ireland who do this sort of thing too (and probably plenty British born and bred if the producers looked hard enough) -- I think a lot of Irish parents are conscious of the global competition their children face if they either have to emigrate to find work or if they stay in Ireland, so pushing is seen as acceptable either way. In the 90s there was also a consciousness that this was Ireland's moment (as mentioned above in respect of China) and that whoever missed the bus would miss it for good; many parents did not want to see their children and future grandchildren falling through the cracks. I think schools in Ireland and the exam system may be on the way to change, but parent attitudes were formed in the 'olden days' and that will take a while to go away, if it ever does.

I remember being drilled in Irish grammar, learning my times tables and having mental arithmetic competitions in class in my convent primary school in Dublin in the 70s, and learning poetry in both Irish and English until I could recite it in my sleep (frequently did, as we had to recite the previous night's homework in school) in secondary. And lots of Shakespeare, the better to regurgitate it in the essays of the Leaving Cert to back up a point. Maths was taught at breakneck speed and what you couldn't understand you had to work out by yourself at home. Teachers started the year saying, "If you [follow this plan of work and study] you will get an A in the Leaving Cert", and they were right. My parents never pushed, but the teachers definitely did, and I went to a Community School so they weren't even nuns. I always received books -- usually some sort of encyclopedia/'how things work'/history of the world -- and classic novel for Christmas (Treasure Island, Black Beauty, The Secret Garden, Tarka the Otter, etc.) and always give books to my DCs.

Did anyone see the programme about grammar schools which was on bbc4 at the same time as 'tiger mums' ( on iplayer now) from what I saw the teaching methods used per war in these schools would echo those of the tiger mums.

the thing that got me was the 3 -5 HOURS a day of homework/music..... WOW that just shuts out the real world totally.

I feel so inadequate - my girls only play the piano .......for fun..... gulp......

That sounds pretty normal. Three hours isn't all that much with music practice and a bit of compulsory extra maths and reading for older primary school age. Five a bit of a stretch maybe but secondary level homework and studying plus practice/sport could take that much time easily.

DD1 and DS were in school in the US from 5.30 am for football/weightlifting/swimming practice and then to 5.30 pm for more every day during the football and swimming seasons, and then they had a good four hours of homework on top of that. DD1 had early morning practice, then school, then after school a meet or practice every day (meets meant she could be back at school as late as 10 pm) then homework on top of that. She usually tried to get some work done on the bus and between events.

mathanxiety wow, that sounds completely extreme. did they go on to compete in the Olympics or something What happened to doing sport for the fun of it?

They had lots of fun, mixed with very positive and motivated kids, and ended up looking well-rounded on their university applications, which is a form of Olympic-level competition many American teenagers engage in and practice for as soon as they can read, count to ten, kick a ball and wield a bat. It really should be in the Olympics; there is that much dedication and focus attached to it.

DD1 talked me into letting her swim (and also do water polo). She also did badminton, so she had autumn, winter and spring sports going for two years, but just swimming and badminton another year. She missed the swimming sign up date because she was trying out for volleyball and softball in her first year (too petite and short for either).

DS talked me into letting him do football. I wanted hm to do baseball because I feared injuries associated with football and I had grave doubts about the macho culture. But he had a blast and didn't pick up any bad habits.

DD1 (grammar school now at uni) would observe "Chinese parents..... that's how they are" . " of her close friends at school were Chinese and they were almost never allowed out to sleepovers etc (though the girl, as she got older knew exactly how to time asking for "time off" to be able go out sometimes).

However DD would apply the "Chinese parents " label to other kids parents of any ethnic origin though. I'd certainly apply it to my Iraqi colleague at work- her primary age kids were heavily tutored with a view to places at the best local secondaries etc as well as arabic school and mosque school.

Mind you I think all the kids I knew/know from non english speaking ethnic groups go so some sort of Saturday school- even in the 1980s when I was at school my friend Diaga went to Latvian school.

I kind of admire these mums.

I think there is good in them.

It must be hard to live in a foreign country and to raise children in ways that are completely different from what is considered "normal" around you, and to be considered crazy because you are doing what you think is best for your kids.

I really liked that they didn't boast that their kids were so clever, they just said that if they worked hard, they could achieve. I like that attitude.

WRT the sports -- the children who were really being pushed at sports were on travelling teams/private clubs from age 7 or 8 onwards, with year-round commitment and expenditure in the thousands $$$ for travel all over the US to tournaments. The big things in the suburb I lived in for girls were softball and volleyball and for boys baseball and volleyball, with soccer, basketball and swimming for both. For those children, school sports was an adjunct to their regular sports schedule, almost like competing in a house league. Universities sent talent scouts to watch the travel teams far more than to the high school, where you had to be an outstanding athlete (and probably therefore already on their radar through travel team participation) to warrant attention.

Speaking as someone who had children abroad, I think it's far easier to do things your own way when you're away from your own native country. You stand out like a sore thumb no matter what you do when you're 'forrin' so you might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. And you can put funny looks down to the strangeness of the natives instead of being wounded by snide remarks from people from your own culture.

You really don't have to be Chinese to be a Tiger mum. I watched that programme and the mums were like the white middle class mums in our village. Kumon maths, two instruments, a sport or four, extra tuition whether tiny needs it or not. Extra homework on downloaded sheets or Bond books because school doesn't give you enough. The children are scheduled within an inch of their lives. Trying to get a playdate is like extracting blood. And I buy into some of it.

What interests me is that these people worked so hard for not that much. To be a dentist? An accountant? even though they hate accountancy? And Langlang, talented and adorable as he is, had a shit childhood, whereas Alfred Brendel (even more talented) didn't even take piano seriously until he was in his twenties.

I think it's just a different way of learning. My two are constantly asking me about pieces of classical music. they hum them, I tell them the name, they track them down online and download them. Or they come up and ask me what big words are "epiphany" recently, or look them up in the dictionary. Nine times out of ten all this new info is stuff that came up on The Simpsons.

I think parenting is a learning process and all parents want the best for their children. I don't think those tiger mums push kids that bad in a way. it is a tv show and likely there are more stories are not edited to show the full pictures. Those mums love their children unconditionally no doubt and they only try to help them reaching their potential so they can have better choices when they grow up. let's face it, there are lots of competitions in this world. A bit pressure and disciplines are not wrong. While some parents wonder why to push this hard if they aren't necessary to achieve excellent in the end ie become a professional violinist, but it is important to recognise the process is important too. Maybe after all those pushing, they won't become what we hope for but in the end, we can proudly say we are doing the best we can. I think I am a tiger mum and it's in my blood (from Taiwan). nothing wrong about it

I do think I have some tiger mum qualities in me, but I don't think that's such a bad thing. I've read Amy Chua's book and watched the documentary and do feel a sense of admiration for the hard work these mothers and children put in.

Dd and ds learn the violin by suzuki method and attend a school with majority chinese children. Dd (8) now practises an hour each day and is progressing well. It is obvious that the chinese children practise for longer as they tend to fly past the other children. We have to work hard each day to keep up, but I believe we are doing the right thing in helping our children to achieve.

Aside from the music practise my children do their school work and reading, but I certainly don't push it. Once they've done a full day at school, relaxed, eaten and music practise there isn't much time for anything else.

Sorry but I disagree with much of this. A lot of research has demonstrated the importance of non-structured play for young kids, and I personally believe for older kids too, and with this tiger nonsense there is no time left to allow children space for reflective and imaginative play.

Life is about living, I don't see a rounded and rich experience in this. I come from a very academic, very clever family, some of whom have been successful according to the definitions of tigers. But having witnessed their successes my ambition for my children is that they lead a life that is content. What exactly is a good and successful life? Who is to say that those who practise the so-called lesser professions of plumbing, farming etc consider their existence to be less than a cambridge graduate fat cat. I has all the trappings of it. Frankly I think it is disgusting.

Pocksrule No one here has said that an academic is worth more than a plumber... Also, in the documentary, you are seeing a very narrow aspect of these families' lives, who says they don't have fun or have 'unstructured' play out of their schedule?

When I was growing up, I was expected to do my homework and practise the piano for a certain amount of time each day, the rest of the time, my cousins and I ran wild and boy, did we have fun! Fun that kids today can't have cos there is no way parents will allow a large group of fairly young children disappear for hours into the local 'woods' with unfenced ponds etc.

I believe in education. I think education gives you freedom. Going to university taught me a lot of life skills and once I had my degrees under my belt, I felt I could go out and do what I wanted. I don't have to prove myself anymore. I am quite happy for my kids to become a plumber or a roofer if that's what they choose to be but if they are clever enough, I would like them to go to university first, do some studying, learn some disciplines, absorb some knowledge, enjoy being a young person, travel and experience life before they decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

Easy to say for you perhaps, but my mother's family would all have had to take the boat to America or Australia if Granny and Grandad hadn't been an early Irish version of tiger parents and sacrificed to send them to school (grandad made it to age 14 before he had to leave to work) and then on to college and in the case of some, all the way to PhDs.

There is a certain amount of contentment to be had knowing your children are not going to be packing all they have in a little suitcase and facing a lifetime of minimum wage labour in some hot foreign place, and for the children, my aunts and uncles, much contentment in seeing their offspring make it to the Ivy League, Oxbridge, great jobs, ability to afford nice holidays (grandad never had a holiday in his entire life and my uncle who inherited the farm didn't either; his first foray into a scenic part of the next county blew his mind but he put 6 children through university) and also the opportunity to use their many gifts and talents in charitable endeavours, helping the disadvantaged and disabled.

Feel so guilty now watching this as I am chinese and have DS1 3.5 who keeps asking me to go for all sorts of lessons(ice-skating, violin, piano, horse riding etc.). But I've decided to be laid back just as my parents had been with me and haven't really done much for him, I keep thinking he's WAY too young. He goes for swimming(he asked for around 6 months and we gave in) and will be starting ballet soon (once again DS1 has been pestering for months) but nothing else. I know many white mums who send their kids for many more lessons. He was at an independent school so he's actually been asking to go for french and chinese lessons but I haven't done anything about that, thinking he's too little and he should be playing instead of going for lessons. Perhaps I'm going too far the other way not wanting him to do anything too much. Watching this been been sort of a wake up call for me, if these parents can push their kids so hard, and it's really not a bad thing, the least I could do is put some effort into letting my DS1 learn what he so wants to. Sorry perhaps I've completely missed the point of the programme but glad I've seen this post anyway as I missed this programme yesterday.

Hullygully The only impression I would like to be "out there" about the Chinese is that we are fully human, with personality, virtues, vices etc.etc. which will differ from individual to individual, just as with white British people, or any other people.

FellatioNelson I never accused you of racism, but I have to admit that your (or your sons) "zero personality" jibe rankled somewhat - and could be construed as being so, especially as its the sort of thing I've seen said about Chinese (and other East Asians0 over and over again.

I am sorry you are feeling so weary of not being able to freely explore these matters, as the last thing I would want is for people not being able to express what they feel - including what they feel about Chinese. But then I would also want to be able to reply to what I see as an unfair statement, without being dismissed as being a "tad chippy".

Well perhaps I am - but I've got rather weary too. I'm weary of feeling I ought to reply to all the ignorant and denigatory remarks about Chinese (as an ethnicity) which I find on so many of the forums I read. Actually I'm so weary that I've mostly given up trying.

If it was just about myself, I wouldn't even bother. But I am concerned about the future of my nieces, half Chinese and half white, and what prejudice they might have to endure in their lives ahead.

My grandpa worked in a sweat shop, and indeed did minimum wage in a hot country too. That has no relation to the point I am trying to make. Sorry but kids who go to school then come home to 3 to 5 hours work on top have no time for anything else. And I am commenting on the programme before I get jumped on. And I do believe there is an inference that such jobs are less than.

I just don't see why becoming the best academically is the measure of success. Why does it have to be the best. Some people thrive on trying to attain the nobel prize etc but not many. Many who operate at that level are not actually happy and end up feeling like failures. I think there is a great wide line between minimum wage in a hot, foreign place and scoring a first at Oxbridge and you can find a great place on that line without such intense pressure. You can have a great education without going overboard and education never ends. I intend to learn piano when I have a bit more time. The fact that I have left it too late to become a concert pianist is neither here nor there, I will still enjoy it.

Hullygully You also asked what I thought "the answer might be".

I'm afraid there is no easy answer. I am pessimistic on this point as history shows, over and over again, that it is far easier to stir up prejudice and hatred than to bring about understanding and reconciliation. Northern Ireland and South Africa are cases in point - things may have got better, but anyone who imagines that old hatreds and prejudices aren't still bubbling away are naive in the extreme.

All I think we can realistically hope for is that responsible authors, film producers, directors etc. who deal in the field of real or perceived ethnic differences, take some care to see that their products will create more light and less heat. I am not sure that those involved in "Tiger Mothers" had this as an objective.

FrankH you are totally right. Feeding into stereotypes keeps below the surface resentments simmering, creates normality around negative associations and causes more damge than people give credit. Like you say you need only delve slightly into history to see the truth in this

pocksrule the emphasis on academics because Confucianism places a big emphasis on scholastic ability. Education is probably next in terms of importance after filial piety. I don't think all these tiger mums are actually expecting their child to get a first from Oxbridge, but a tiger mum will never say that to their child before uni applications. It is the belief that if you aim for it, and work towards it, you can achieve it that they are trying to instill. And the process of working and being willing to put in the graft that matters.

I know jellybeans I just don't agree with such values and the pressure it places upon a person. I don't agree with that level of graft at young ages and I don't believe that graft alone will necessarily lead to it. This then sets up someone for potentially a terrible fall. I also don't believe the end prize is worth all this.

BigFatSpider I was going to answer your request to give my story, to explain why I might be over-sensitive about the largely negative view of Chinese people which I think still exists in a significant minority of the British population - and which minority I fear will grow, as China is perceived as a greater threat to the West.

However I realise that a list of experiences of racism over 63 years will end up sounding like a monotonous whining complaint. So I won't do this and say that in spite of these, my experiences of this country and its people have been overwhelmingly positive. The great majority of my friends have been and are white British, and I wouldn't wish that any different. I still believe that on average the people of this country, of all "colours", are among the kindest and most generous in the world. I only hope this remains the case in the possibly troubled years ahead.

Pocksrule. There is no right or wrong way to educate children. The programme doesn’t try to show the best academically is the measure of success. i remember Sally expressed that having a good education is to ensure Matthew will have more choices and options in the future. Who are we to say tiger mum's way is wrong. Everyone is different. Every child is different. Some kids have more self-discipline and some do need some pushing. My parents were pushing (10 times worse), I didn’t rebel it and I love them dearly – I actually thank them for it.

Yes life is about living, but learning is also fun. Who say they hate it? The boy wants to become a professional pianist like his idol, then his mother only helps him to achieve it with long hours of practicing. Matthew wants to become a dentist like his godfather so he will have money to buy lots of nice cars when he grows up, then he needs to study hard for it.

Like racingheart stated, You really don't have to be Chinese to be a Tiger mum. There are many mums like that already!.

It is interesting that you said that. I went to a school with a very large proportion of Chinese students. Discipline with regards to homework and music from an early age was the norm, regardless of how tiger motherish mum was. When it came to our teenage years, these same children will easily structure their own learning and revision without supervisionr

There may be an unfortunate spin-off for education in this country in all this.

Some posters have remarked on the similarity between Matthew's timetable and that which ruled in many British schools, especially boarding schools, in this country until quite recently. Having gone to such schools, I agree. There was a marked similarity - right down to the set times for physical exercise.

Michael Gove, our present Education minister, is someone whose statements and writings I have noted quite frequently. Some comments of his on a Chinese artist in the BBC2 programme "Newsnight Review", among others, confirmed an impression that he doesn't like Chinese people and has a low opinion of them. This dislike may or may not be "racist".

In any case, he is now using the "Chinese" as bogeymen in order to push through his changes in our education system. The nightmare he presents is your nice British children ending up having to work for "Harvard trained Chinese businessmen". I suspect he will try to introduce more of the timetables of the Matthew/British boarding school ethos into our education system so we can beat the dastardly Chinese at their own game!

Actually, the spin-off might be fortunate or unfortunate - depending on your view as to what "Education" should be mainly about.

I am sure I stated elsewhere that I believe tigering is done by many different people. I dislike the principles not an entire nation who, as frankh, so rightly said are not the only ones to do this. Obviously we all have our own ideas as to the right and wrong ways to educate. I, for one am relived that some of those methods adopted in the fifties no longer are in use.

I also believe little kids reflect back their parents' desires especially so young. Young kids often want to do what they think their parents want. I think there are a very small number of children that may benefit from such extreme pushing but I find it extreme and don't like or approve just as I am sure they wouldn't approve of what I do. I am expressing my opinion on the subject. I don't like it and explained why I don't like it.

And it is not just about fun, as I said I believe (note I said I believe not you must) that kids need sufficient time to reflect, indulge in nonsense and imaginative play or simply to be bored. This style does not imo leave enough mental head space or time for that. I remember studying for my exams and going to bed with my head swimming in mathematical equations, facts, theories but I was significanty older.

I actually fully believe in education to a certain standard but I believe it should be taught in an appropriate manner.

None of what I say is about Chinese people. The documentary focused on them but I have met people like that from all nationalities. It is the pushiness at such young ages that I hate.

Sorry pocksrule, my post was meant to be considerably longer but posted too soon whilst trying to wipe crumbs off my iPad . I get what you are saying, and the Chinese mums from my school certainly weren't unique in their style of parenting, as all the other mums were pretty much the same!
I found the programme funny though, as I identified with some of it. And also a bit sad for the mums because all people will see from the outside is how they push their children and judge them for it. There is a lot of love and sacrifice there too.

Frankh i think a change in the educational system in the uk can only be a good thing.Don't you think many uk workers will end up working for chinese business men? [whether harvard educated or not].China is one of a few rapidly growing countries along with India[my dh having always worked for western companies is now working for a chinese one].I think you are very sensitive about any real or perceived bias here.i am sure you have had a lot of racism in the past -my dc's [chinese mixed] have had absolutely none.Though they do perceive themselves as being British,even though 3 were born in hk.I think the British are fairly welcoming to different nationalities as long as they behave and act in a similar manner to people in the uk.If they don't then there is a huge potential for misunderstanding.

we need to take a step back with parenting and let our children explore what they want to do from a young age

teta I am sure Michael Gove doesn't think that British people working for Chinese is a good idea! Why else would he use this, for him, ghastly prospect as an excuse to push forward his educational reforms, in order to avert such a situation?

Whether or not the changes in the educational system he is pushing through are a good or a bad thing, is a matter of opinion. I suspect that there will be a few good ideas buried amongst a host of bad and irrelevant ones.

I think maybe the British and Chinese (as observed in HK- can't comment on mainland China as no direct experience) are two extremes, and neither is perfect

- HK Chinese= very good basic hard skills such as numeracy, literacy and proficiency in English, even amongst people who leave school at minimum age, but not much attention to blue sky thinking/creative thought and a lot of focus on rote learning.

- English- poor levels of literacy and numeracy in a large swathe of the population (University graduates write "I could of" and routinely confuse they're, their and there) but lots of focus on getting children to think for themselves.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. Business leaders constantly reiterate the fact that the British workforce needs better basic skills and a better work ethic. What's the point in having great ideas if you can't articulate them? On the other hand, having good basic skills but little ability to think outside the box is also limiting.

However, I think the Chinese system is easier to fix than the British system.

I'm a bit of tiger <roar>

I don't think it does anyone any good in the long term to applaud a child who is perfectly capable of getting A's when they get a B.

It just means they haven't tried, no?

Fair enough, if the child is doing the best they can, then applaud.

I love the two grade system - effort and attainment. If the effort grade is A, I don't quibble. If the effort grade is B and the attainment grade is A, I don't quibble. But woe betide my children if the effort grade is B and the attainment grade is B ...

<roar>

The concept of the tiger mum, rather like the concept of the helicopter mum is too extreme, and so the problem is that it can be used to ridicule perfectly normal caring parents who encourage and take an interest in their children.

I particularly don't like it because it has racist connotations. For too long there has been a very racist stereotype of the narrow minded unimaginative hardworking high achieving Chinese or East Asian person who is told he/she cannot think outside the box and therefore isn't quite as good as the other person who works less and achieves less but is of a different race. I am not Chinese btw. But I do think this tiger mum concept is an extension of that racism.

TV programmes such as the one referred to are an example of the worst kind of biased journalism.

Frank. My children have not been brought up to be prejudiced, and neither was I. Quite the opposite. I was talking about their independent (yet identical) observations of a group of students they rubbed shoulders with, in two different establishments, having barely met or mixed with a Chinese person before, in their lives.

They also mix with students of many other nationalities and ethnicities, (especially now as we live in the Middle East where there are huge amounts of expats from all over the world, the minority are white, and there is barely a white/European child amongst any of their friends) and they do not appear to have made any 'blanket' observations about their behaviours that I am aware of.

We know very well, thank you, that whatever people's colour, religion, ethnicity or culture, they are all 'fully human' as you put it, with the full range of personalities, foibles and emotions.

The point is, I was not referring to Chinese people as one homogenous group. I was not referring to my opinion/impression of Chinese people as one homogenous group. I was referring to my children's observations/impressions of two very tiny, (and for all I know, quite possibly non-representative) groups, and it was in the context of a discussion about an emerging trend for Tiger Mothering, which seems to be not exclusively, but predominantly a Chinese thing. If those observations touched a raw nerve for you because they happened to concur with things you have heard before that make you feel defensive and uncomfortable then I don't really know what I can say about that.

I'm quite sure they have wonderful personalities, but my children never get the chance to see them because they choose not to mix or to join social activities in the halls of residence/boarding houses, and they stay in their rooms studying pretty much all of the time.

All the while you wish to assume that that is somehow because of a fault, or a lack of effort, or a demonstration of ingrained xenophobia/predudice on the part of my children, I really don't see what I can say to convince you otherwise.

It is interesting that in defence of the Chinese students, Alliez made this comment:

'FNelson, please don't euphemise binge drinking to the extent of passing out in the street and having alcohol-related liver disease by age 25 as "partying"; practical jokes ending up in criminal damage and A&E as "larks" etc. And as for a culture that is able to produce uni students who instead of all this study -Britain should all learn from that culture.'

Now I don't disagree with any of that - she has a point, and it's a point I made myself, before I deleted my long post. It rings true (sadly) for too many British young people, and now I live somewhere where alcohol is not freely available and where public raucousness is not accepted, I can agree that we DO have a great deal to learn from other cultures. However, if I were wanting to get all huffy and offended about sweeping generalisations and 'negative stereotyping' of my culture, and wild derogatory assumptions being made about my children, and about how I was accused of 'euphemising' to gloss over the slack and anti-social behaviour they OBVIOUSLY must indulge in by dint of being British and white, then I could find a great deal to be offended by in what she said.

People (often, and in general) display common cultural traits. good, bad, indifferent and just plain bewildering, depending on which other culture is observing. It's a fact. Cultural traits are not ethnic traits. I'm not sure that ethnic traits actually exist, but obviously there will be some sort of unavoidable crossover between culture and ethnicity, and surely you are over-thinking things and developing a persecution complex if you cannot tell the difference between a discussion on common cultural traits and thinly veiled derogatory stereotyping of a whole ethnicity? Although I wonder sometimes....hence why I find these discussions wearisome and depressingly predictable, like walking through a minefield filled with booby-traps designed to expose me as a Bad Person for saying what I see.

The phrase trotted out regularly on MN: 'even a positive sterotype is still a stereotype'. Well, yes, but how the hell are you ever to explore the human race at all, and to learn from one another, if you are in such fear of recognising patterns in cultural behaviours, but dare not day it for fear saying the wrong thing? As a white British person I have to live with the fact that globally speaking, I am seen as fat, lazy, entitled, tattooed, promiscuous, a football thug or a Political bully and all-round Busybody. Or failing that, I am a horsey, chinless braying twit. I am none of those things actually (ok, I am a bit fat) and neither are the vast majority of the people I know, but there is not a damn thing I can do about it because IT IS WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD SEES. So I must take it on the chin.

By the way, I am aware that in China it is common to refer to white Westerners as Big Noses. I'd like it on record that my nose is really rather small, with no discernable bridge. However, I do accept that as we probably all look the same to the Chinese, we are an ethnicity who in general terms are all in possession of Huge Hooters. I could go on a one-woman crusade to convince them otherwise, but while they look around and see many of us sporting massive beaky konks which to their eyes seem alien and unwieldy, then I must accept that they see what they see, and make their own conclusions - as they are perfectly entitled to do.

And one more thing Frank

Your very first post said this:

'I am of Chinese ethnicity, and to some extent, not as much as the mums on the programme, my parents were stricter than average.

However I thought the programme was very unfair, as it seems to have deliberately chosen three rather extreme examples, and then only show some parts of their lives. I'm afraid that it can only encourage dislike of Chinese people as a whole.'

You see, this is where you are over-thinking it. the programme was not about the Chinese. It was not even about chinese mothers. It was about Tiger Mothers, most of whom happen to be Chinese. And believe it or not, we are (mostly) intelligent enough to grasp this fact.

There is a programme on soon called 'Toddlers and Tiaras' It is about American mothers who enter their tiny daughters into hideous beauty pageants, where they are encouraged to flaunt their midriffs and gyrate like pole-dancers at four years old - almost the polar-opposite in every way of the Tiger Mother programme.

Would you say that that programme will encourage dislike of Americans as a whole? Are you as a British/Chinese observer, likely come away 'disliking American people more as whole' because of it?

We are threatened by the Chinese in the west as they are a race of diligent, high-achieving people. We should feel threatened too when so many of our kids are neets. To a certain extent I can see where Amy is coming from although I think she should be pushing gymnastics sport as well as music for the health and fitness of her children.

The sporty kids at school were always the most confident and popular and it dosn't have to be at the expense of academia. I did not agree with her putting her dd on the doorstep at the age of 3 for not doing her piano scales. I think thta is very neurotic and hysterical imo. Amy Chua must be exhausted!

I agree with racing heart. We have a few tiger mums at school and as impressive as their dc's academic and musical achievements are they invariably say they want to be accountants , dentists or lawyers when asked what they want to do when they grow up. These dc are 6 years old! Now I know this is probably what they've been told the should do by their parents but I do think childhood is a time where dreams and imagination shouldn't be restricted. On the other hand I also appreciate that some of Tiger mums' techniques are worth adopting. Rote learning and continual practise is for somethings are absolutely essential. My dc 's maths, spelling, punctuation and grammar improved dramatically when i did this with them for 2 weeks over the summer holidays .
I must admit I found the Tiger mums (Vivian + Sally's) dc's routine absolutely exhausting and their dc seemed incredibly docile. If ds had to do even half of Matthew's schedule he'd explode!

Everything Fell said

But understand why Frank feels as he does too

Hully get those fence splinters out of our arse.

"We are threatened by the Chinese in the west as they are a race of diligent, high-achieving people." They are not high achieving people!! Read some more insightful articles about China and it's culture. Perhaps there are elements of brilliance in China, but no moreso than here. You can get an English degree in China without ever uttering a word of it aloud. Children spend long days in classrooms and still do not have an inch of critical thinking, there is no thinking outside the box in China, well not in it's culture and control. A great piece in The WallSt. Journal talked about USA and China having the same degrees of both arrogance and ignorance, I am inclined to agree. It's astounding how little the Chinese know of the outside world.

China is a frightening place because of it's lack of humanity and control....it is definitely a country to be feared.

My dd became good friends with a Chinese girl when she started in year 7, but within a year she just couldn't stay friends with her because her social skills were so hard to handle. If dd got a better mark than her friend the friend wouldn't speak to her, but if she did better she'd spend all day boasting and giving advice on how to do as well. She was like this with all the class and eventually they all gradually distanced themselves. We also found her hard to be around as she had a very rude attitude to us as parents. Dd said that at home her mother was just like these tiger mothers and this girl had been told since ks2 what her job was going to be and what subjects to concentrate on.

I realise she could be a one off, but it's very sad to see at 13 she has no friends and doesn't know why.

FellatioNelson I am quite aware of all the points you are making. I'm afraid it was the "zero personality" jibe which got me going - yes, precisely because I've heard it so many times before. And my "fully human" was not aimed at you! I have too often come across people talking in terms which suggest that Chinese, as an ethnicity, aren't really as human as whites. Witness the popular rock singer Morrissey, for one.

As I said before, I am not going to list the negative experiences of racism I've come across in this country, because I prefer mostly to concentrate on the positive. If I did list these it would be quite wearying, but just perhaps you might slightly forgive me for my over-sensitivity.

funnyperson Many thanks for concisely summarizing what I, and not a few others, find worrying about the reaction of some to this sort of programme.

There is an element of rote learning and sheer hard work to anything very difficult to achieve. Often I find it interesting if you look at the very difficult life of great composers for example, they had exceptional technical training (look at Mozart and Beethoven or Chopin) and had unique experiences that cultivated this - Beethoven had an alcoholic father who had his own ambitions to be a great musician / composer and Beethoven used to play music for to placate him. Chopin suffered a great deal of illness as a child, which kept him isolated but also meant he honed fantastic musical skills. Somehow these people made amazing music, which have benefited humanity but I often think they could not have done it without their technical skill and in a way their difficult early experiences played a huge part in this.

I think the TV show did feed into stereotypes. I am sure it was edited carefully to demonstrate this as that made it compelling viewing.

In some ways I think these parents are genuinely doing the best they can, within their own constructs of themselves. No one is perfect. Perhaps the relaxed Geordie guy was the perfect antidote to his ambitious wife. We don't know. I worry about the lack of social input for my child, I am not from the UK, my DH and I work full time - we don't have any other support and it is therefore quite hard to organise play dates. I would hope that the Chinese language school would also offer some social contact for the children who attend. I worried about how some of the mothers ensured their children were integrated into British society. However, this week with the conviction of those two horrors in the Stephen Lawrence case has really made me question just how divided society in London can be and made me question how integrated into society me and my family here are. The Stephen Lawrence case really upset me but it made me realise that I have been in the UK for nearly a decade and it has made me want to contribute more to society. I think the Lawrence family are amazing and really inspirational.

I'm so uncomfortable with assigning characteristics to people based on ethnicity.

I mean I too will take my child to amazing musical events and I think I will ensure my child learns a musical instrument and only once they have reached a certain standard will they choose to drop it or keep going. So there are elements which I think are positive but I think the TV show was very stark in what it chose to show.

NotMostPeople I'm really uncomfortable with your post. 13 is too young to be written off as having no friends. I had someone in my class when I was young and around 13 years of age, who sounded similar to the person you describe but they had come from a war torn country - my parents to their credit - really spent time with me and kind of made it known to me that I would have to try harder and help this child socially and try imagine myself in their shoes. It was a good lesson for me. I was a popular child, and I recognised that I could make her life easier.

FellatioNelson Yes, you may be intelligent enough to see that the programme actually wasn't actually about Chinese as a whole - but I'm afraid that many, even those actually intelligent to know the difference, will still use this sort of thing to further the negative stereotypes about Chinese as a "race" which still abound this country.

As for the programme about 'Toddlers and Tiaras', there is of course a danger that it could stereotype these mums as typical of all American mums. However there is a difference here. Most of the anti-Chinese stereotyping in this country is at least partly based on the idea that Chinese people are genetically different and inferior. Such clearly doesn't apply to white Americans, at least on the part of the great majority of Britons, who are white.

Personally, it doesn't alter in any way my attitude to white Americans as a whole, which is entirely favourable, as I don't believe whites (or anyone else) are genetically inferior!

Posie, i think that's completely unfair, bordering on ignorance. On what basis do you say we lack humanity? How would you feel if the chinese branded the UK as inhumane after seeing news reports of kids getting bottled and their faces stamped on after a boozy Friday night out followed by free & easy sex with multiple women? Would that be fair?

In the UK we have this curious culture where we have this love/hate relationship with success. We point to people like Wayne Rooney, Richard Branson as successful rich people who didn't need a good education. Shortly before vilifying them as greedy tax dodgers who tread on the poor to get where they are. And whilst admiring the lucky 'few' who made it without a good education, we forget the millions who didn't.

A relentless focus on academics is wrong. I have high expectations for my kids but I do spend time focussing on their social skills too. The program showed extreme examples, no doubt edited to show the most entertaining parts.

There were some snippets though in the program which were mentioned but not dwelled upon. Such as we as chinese parents start off with the position that with hard work and the right help, our kids WILL succeed. To us, the thought of going to University is as natural as expecting our child will walk.

I had a conversation with a British friend last week who said she'd be more than happy if her kids came home with C grades at GCSE. Why??? Why???? Why only expect average from your kids? Why not expect the best and help them achieve the best they can???

Funny thing is that after watching this program and discussing it with my OH (who isn't chinese but instead is Eastern European), it appears she's more tiger mum than me. I honestly do think the fact that we both are from countries where there is no real welfare system so you have to rely upon yourself. Jobless = starvation. I guess it's hard to describe to someone how it feels to be hungry if they've never been that.

I don't think that's true at all Frank!

Americans know well that we all think of them as thick religious right wing hicks apart from four people on the East coast...

PosieParker Please try to distinguish between China, a totalitarian dictatorship - which I have very little positive to say about (if I had one wish for a political development it would be for Tibet to be allowed independence) - and the Chinese as a people, many of whom don't support what their government are doing, but are not free to say so. I wonder how many Chinese people you have met and got to know, to be able to make the sort of statements you have made.

NotMostPeople I'm sorry about your dd's experience. Of course there are nasty, unlikeable Chinese people, just as there are in all races. So your dd's unlikeable ex-friend won't be a "one off" - but what would that mean?

If I were to judge all white Britons as being typified by Gary Dobson and David Norris - how fair would that be?

I don't think i've ever heard that Chinese people are inferior.In fact we were brought up to believe that they were very hard workers and to respect that fact.My father had lots of contacts amongst different nationalities in his work and we were brought up to appreciate the differences and enjoy the food of all nationalities.I did however come across some prejudice when i decided to marry one!.
I think Michael Goves comment should really be taken as praise of the chinese achievements in the fields of academia and business.Who cares whether he likes the chinese or not.What he thinks is totally irrelevant.I was amazed at the efficiency in hk and couldn't believe the inefficiency in the uk when i returned home.The uk has lessons to learn from the chinese and the sheer ability to work hard which has been eroded in the uk.

Hullygully I suspect your comment may be tongue-in-cheek. But if not....

Does anyone really believe that being a "thick religious right wing hick" is the result of inferior genes peculiar to Americans? If so, why aren't more white Britons also such?

'I wonder how many Chinese people you have met and got to know, to be able to make the sort of statements you have made.'

Well if you've been living here for 63 years I think Posie might know more Chinese people actually in China than you do Frank.

teta The majority of Britons, of any colour, are among the most tolerant, kind, and generous people on this planet. All things I have written must be taken against that background.

However there is a significant minority - and I have had personal experience of quite a number - who do really believe that all Chinese people are nasty inhumane people who are cruel both to other peoples and to animals, who are totally uncreative, whose intelligence rests entirely in being able to rote learn, who have little or no real personality etc.etc. And they believe this is due to Chinese people being genetically, and thus irremediably, inferior to whites.

At one time, this was a much more widespread view openly held in the West - hence the strong influence of "Yellow Peril" thinking so prevalent in the West during the 19th and early 20th centuries, thinking which still subtly colours some of the attitudes towards Chinese (and Japanese and Koreans) to this day.

[Incidentally - on the cruelty to animals - I find it especially galling that Chinese are so often tarred as a whole with this brush. I hate animal cruelty - I can't now even bear to kill the mice which are invading my house - and have supported WWF most of my adult life. Yet I find Morrissey, on the basis of reports of the ghastly condition of some animals in China, denigrating all Chinese - as a "race"]

FellatioNelson Although I have lived here for over 63 years, I still have many relatives in China and Taiwan, including many who have visited us regularly over the years.

Although I have not returned, my brother and sister have gone to China quite frequently.

I have also met quite a number of students from China through my work of over 15 years in two universities.

I think I have quite a fair experience of Chinese people.

However, if you prefer to believe Posie's very negative view, that's your right. Of course there are some who might fit her stereotypes - but then again I've met not a few who wouldn't.

On what basis do you say we lack humanity?

On the basis that the Chinese harvest organs from criminals, the basis that I frequently saw the disgusting way they treat animals in China and children for that matter.

How many Chinese people have I met?

Enough to think that the broad brush style characteristics that are given to the Chinese by better minds than me. And of course it's not all Chinese people, that would be ridiculous. I spent the last, bar one, eight summers in China and my father lives there. Incidentally he's about to leave my mother and his forty year marriage for a Chinese woman younger than me. This is a common theme for expats in China and it's not because young Chinese women crave the beauty and kindness of a Westerner in his late fifties, it's because money is their goal.

(By the way I am not saying any ethnicity is pre disposed to ANYTHING or characteristic but it's very hard to escape the clutches and control of such an intrusive and powerful dictatorship)

My comment on Morrissey, to be clear, as a result of the reports of cruelty to animals, he described Chinese as a "sub-species".

I don't think that there is any doubt that there are people all over the world who lack humanity, but I think Britain does much better than most countries. China still has dying rooms for little girls, still has a bucket at the side of a woman in labour to drown the baby girl. And all this is due to poverty, but the country's books are balanced, they have enough money to feed the poor. Also they have forced terminations for disability.....

Morrissey is a tit. The way Chinese in China treat animals is horrific, it's hard not to question people's humanity when they take so much pleasure or apathy to being really cruel to animals.

For the record I know some very very lovely Chinese people, both here and in HK/mainland China....but the culture is one that can be described, as any other. That what culture does. And in a country of a billion people there are obviously many many different types of people.

Back to Morrissey's point though, the difference is that what David Norris and Gary dobson did was illegal. Bottling people and stamping on their heads is illegal. Getting drunk and disorderly in public and being anti-social and causing criminal damage is illegal. It is not behaviour that is tolerated, condoned, encouraged or dismissed by the masses as part of their culture.

Talking specifically about Morrisey's issues with the Chinese, we no longer have legal bear baiting or dog-fighting, or fox hunting and we no longer trap animals in traps that break their limbs and cause them to lie for hours/days in pain. We aim for high, humane standards in farming and animal slaughter compared to other parts of the world, and particularly China, and as far as I am aware we have never tortured and skinned cats and dogs alive in the belief that it makes their flesh more tender. It's what he perceives as a collective indifference and acceptance of something utterly abhorrent, and a lack of empathy and compassion.

Empathy and compassion for the defenceless is what puts humans above, and apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, is it not? So if he sees that empathy and compassion lacking in a particular nationality then he will draw his own conclusions about where they fit in that nation fits in human race.

Of course the Chinese are not the only race/nationality who do hideous things that we softy Westerners baulk at - but Morrissey is more concerned with the cats and dogs of China than with the plight of children being religiously sacrificed in West Africa (or even in West London) for example.

I think Morrissey is a bit of an arsehole who delights in being provocative, and I cannot argue with distaste and bewilderment at the Chinese psyche on this matter, even if I cringe at his offensive and unfortunate choice of words. On the other hand if you would like to describe Gary Dobson and David Norris as a subspecies be my guest - I will not be arguing on behalf of all British people.

PosieParker I'm sorry that you have such a negative view of Chinese. There's obviously nothing I can do to change your mind, and as there's nothing I can do to change my belonging to such a disgustingly inhumane "race", we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Incidentally, I have met quite a number of unlikeable Chinese people in my time, as I have numbers of unlikeable white Britons, Indians, Romanians, Swiss, French, Americans etc.etc.etc. Fortunately these have been outnumbered by the larger number of nice people I have met in these and other categories.

And I accept your assurance that you don't believe in a genetic predisposition to all this - but quite a number of those who speak about Chinese - and other peoples - in these sorts of way certainly do believe that.

Whoa there....this is about culture, a culture in which things that are accepted are inhumane, this is not about race.

FellatioNelson I too find absolutely abhorrent what has being happening to animals in some institutions in China. I agree absolutely with anyone who thinks that cruelty to animals is an important issue and that we will better express our humanity the better we treat animals (or all relatively weak and defenceless such as children and women).

My mother, who was born and grew up in China, was a great animal lover, especially of cats. She would have been absolutely appalled at the treatment of cats and dogs which so appalled Morrissey. But she was - unusually for a Chinese woman of her generation - a well-educated person. So much depends on circumstances to shape our views on things.

China is a very large country - and very badly governed by a corrupt and narrow minded dictatorship. It does not surprise me that many evil things happen there. However I must object when some, such as Morrissey, seem to be suggesting that this is the result of a basic genetic fault. And he is far from the only one.

Incidentally, on foxhunting, I lived for many years in the countryside (Wiltshire), and there was a very strong support there in favour of foxhunting.

Fellatio, I am sure that you are basically part of the tolerant generous majority which are those who actually make Britain truly great. Forgive me if I flew off the handle a bit, but perhaps you can summon up a little bit of empathy for my position. As I wrote, I'm not concerned about myself, but about the future of such as my nieces, who are fully British in every way but happen to be half-Chinese.

Do people still believe in a racially inheritable genetic predisposition? Not many, surely, perhaps those in the BNP etc, but absolutely no one takes a blind bit of notice of them except them themselves.

Posie's culture point is an important one.

PosieParker Thanks for the assurance that you can tell the difference.

Sadly there are many who can't.

Trouble is Frank, you're talking to people who agree with you! We can see your point and indeed agree with and support it, so some of us get cross when it appears we are being accused of stereotyping!

It's all such a minefield <sigh>

Phew....thanks for wading though my typos!!

And Frank, those people who can't see the difference (whoever they may be) are the same ones who think Indians stink of curry, black people belong in trees, French people don't wash etc etc. A narrow and ignorant mind is just that with regards to everything "other." It's about the mindset more than the specific ethnicity targetted at any given moment.

Posie, I think you need to seperate state from the people. As Frank says, the country is governed in a manner so far removed from the UK's democracy that you've no concept of.

If you look over to Hong Kong where there is more freedom, are there these dying rooms and forced terminations you speak of? No.

China as a country is very wealthy now but much of this wealth is in the hands of the few. If you are poor in China then poverty is very real. Not the stupid poverty in the UK where you can still afford to buy fags and have a roof over your head, all paid for by the government.

No, instead you literally starve. Speak out? Then if you are lucky you will disappear and be put in prison. If you are less lucky then you'll probably just get shot.

In that sort of environment I doubt animal welfare will be the top of your agenda too.

Yes Frank, I can have empathy for your position.

Hullygully One of my professional hats is as a biologist - at present part-time lecturing in human evolution, physiology and behaviour.

Believe me, there are great number of people who believe in racially inheritable genetic predisposition. Some even hold places as lecturers in universities.

There are actually quite a number of "scientific" websites devoted to disseminating the idea that "races" differ markedly in ability, character etc.etc. ("blacks" are less intelligent than "whites", "whites" are the most creative, "whites" are the most "beautiful" etc.etc. There's even a "black" backlash - called Afrocentrism - which claims that "blacks" are superior to other races).

If it weren't for the vast plethora of pornographic websites, I would actually claim that racist (overtly or covertly) websites were among the commonest on the internet.

Incidentally, as a scientist, I don't rule out the possibility that some average difference in abilities may exist between different groups. However the difference are at most only average ones (e.g. intelligent and stupid people exist in all "races"). Also, the usual popular distinctions in"race" are far too crude and unscientific (e.g. there may be more difference between two "black" groups then between either and a "white" group)

Ah, well if we are talking intelligence leagues here don't you Chinese always come out at the top? Why worry!!!!

Fellatio - that's another stereotype I don't believe in!

Actually I think it's Koreans and Ashkenazi Jews who are more often quoted as top. But I don't believe that either - as it's all based on a single way of measuring "intelligence".

Some of the silliest people I have come across are members of Mensa!

Niceguy. Perhaps you forget that HK was ruled by the Brits until recently. Therefore the culture in HK is different. Erm and I have got a concept of the way China is ruled, it's not rocket science. The way people are controlled has an affect, why wouldn't it? The lack of information and ballance can shape a country, eg. I bought my child Chinese Lego. On the side of the item was a quote saying how the Chinese had invented lego. The belief forcefed that Chinese are superior is EVERYWHERE. Of course it affects people.

I am also aware of the spread of wealth, I don't walk around with my eyes shut. There will be an uprising in my lifetime, I am sure.

Umm I have a question without wishing to seem thick. What happens to Tiger mothers child/ren after all there can only be one top student in each class. So do all the Tiger children get bereated daily for coming second or third, and presumably in middle class areas many mothers are Tiger in each class so how do they handle their DC not coming first? This really does interest me.

It was only a silly programme which I suspect was slightly tongue in cheek anyway, as mentioned before I am Chinese, and I simply enjoyed the programme I don't think it is a true representation of all Chinese parents, some of us are lazy, laid back and indulgent whilst others are strict and ambitious. What I find more interesting is the fact this discussion had started to get nasty, and it makes me quite disheartened.

Trying, I hope I haven't offended, but suspect I may have. Chinese culture in China is like nothing else, not like second gen Chinese or Chinese that have settled elsewhere. Like any culture there are definable parts, lazy maybe but true all the same.

Like any harsh ruled country the general populous cannot escape the regime.

yes, but it's all lovely now, and that's the main thing.

Given I was born in HK I of course haven't forgotten that HK was ruled by Britain.

I'm not sure which way to read your post? Because culture-wise, despite UK rule, the people there have more in common with culture in China than the UK.

Given the rule of law by a democratic(ish) government, the populace are overwhelmingly peaceful. If you've ever been there, you could walk around after dark naked and get arrested far quicker than you'd be raped. I'm not so sure if you walked around London.

So are you suggesting that we're only like this because of the fact the British ruled? And that without that, we'd be leaving our baby girls to die at the side of the road?

Culture doesn't make people abandon their kids. Desperation and poverty does.

Hi
I dont think the programme made people dislike Chinese parents/ parenting. I admire discipline and hardwork, I just wish that I too could instill that in our 8 year old or the twins we are expecting in a couple of weeks. Its a delicate balancing act.
Perhaps the thing to bear in mind is that we are raising children today, tomorrows adults, whom we ought to equip with the tools necessary to survive. We wont always be there to protect them and the truth is its tough and competitive out there.
People who excel arent usually 'well rounded'. They spend excessive amounts of time practising etc. The book "Outliers" is an interesting read.
The program was definetly food for thought, but like most things in life, I only pick up practices/ habits that suit my principles, lifestyle etc. One thing for sure is there will be more piano practice in this house, more time set aside to read and a lot less TV watching!

Idontknowetc. Interesting question.

I expect that the actual degree of "tigerishness" varies greatly - as it did to some extent between the three mothers in the programme, and they would be among the more extreme ones. There may be many who while maintaining a tigerish appearance are actually more relaxed when it came the crunch.

Between my two parents - both Chinese - it was actually my mother who was more relaxed about our academic achievements.

More importantly, I know that both my parents loved us their children very much. They weren't uber-tigerisch, but what there was, was due largely to love and concern for us. "Tigerishness" and "love" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

My dds friend has a tiger mum and its pretty scary what she is expected to achieve , she is only allowed to socialise on special occasions Birthdays mainly , and the odd cinema trip , I feel sad for her but who knows she may grow up to be a doctor /brain surgeon /quantum mechanic and be very happy ,

It's like Macau, HK took influences and freedoms afforded to it by Britain. Our 99 year rule had an impact, of course it did. And culture above poverty puts a bucket at the side of the road, drowning baby girls. It is culture alone that makes a girl less valuable.

Cultures evolve with time and improving living standards, you only have to read a dickens novel to see how English women, children and the poor were once treated! UK rule in HK had an impact but you must remember why Britain got HK in the first place, Opium wars? It was a terrible episode for all involved, google it! Saying that I am not one to look back at history and blame it solely for current issues, instead I believe that as the world opens up and we learn compassion, respect and tolerance from each other, mingle with each other and realise we ain't all that different that things will change. There are many chinese dissidents within and outside china campaigning for change but people need to remember that china is still largely a rural county and most of the populous are engaged in survival so a tiger mum would be as strange to them! Tiger mums are actually am improvement, for my mums generation, corporal punishment was also the norm whilst these days it's pretty non existent.

Really? The school my mother's charity donated money to a school where teachers routinely screamed, shouted and threw books at children. I do think we can afford to be compassionate in the UK, I understand the difficulties of poverty and how it is much easier to control a poor and sometimes uneducated population. My father liaises with numerous factories in the South, in fact his job is to see if the Chinese are upholding human rights, and work is incredibly slow and difficult.

I think an important distinction I must make is the difference between narrowed expectations of an individual due to their origin and an acceptance of differences, as well as my 'Chinese' observations are about the culture as a whole and not individuals. (hope this explanation is clear)

The school my mother's charity donated money to was one where teachers routinely screamed, shouted and threw books at children

Scream, shouting and throwing books is not the same as corporal punishment, and although lots of people would be shocked, it is still much better than beating.
Also I'm talking about in the home & amongst HK families where using a stick to punish was common but now I know none that do it! I think it is always easier to look for negatives, in the cities girls are treasured as much as boys but these views will take some time to be the norm in the countryside. Also the three women shown in the show were all highly educated showing their own parents never valued them less!

Can someone please link me to the programme on iPlayer? I can't find it! Thank you.

I think the comments on this thread are extreme at times, but guess everyones entitled to their opinion.
It is a huge cultural thing, in their culture this is 'the way' it's done, all families do it so it is seen as the only way. As said previously China is not a welfare state. In their country if you are jobless or unable to support your family, you do not get benefits like we do. The consequences of not achieving at school to be able to get qualifications for a good job are far far greater than in our society. I wouldn't say the children shown were visibly unhappy.
I think Asian view of childhood is very different from our own, but neither are neccesarily wrong or right.

Bfs lives in HK and, although not from there originally themselves, their dcs certainly are educated in a similar manner. On the way to school dc1 (6) will do Mandarin on their Ipad and after school there is a strict timetable of ECAs, either provided by the school or ferried to by their maid.

Interestingly, their dc2 (just 4) is not exhibiting the same academic qualities and it is a big cause for concern for the parents and the school because they cannot concentrate for any length of time but just want to play. Child psychologist now involved.

However, I attended a London prep school in the 70s (equal mix of White Jewish, Hindu and Other (am Other myself!) and it was just the same then and it was with a wry smile and almost fondness that I watched this programme

I tell you the kids in hong kong are a pleasure to teach. I cannot say the same for British kids. My experience is that Chinese kids and people are more hard working than us Brits.their culture respects hard work and education.
China is going to leave us behind. Believe me.
It is easy to knock their approach but they do not know the soft safety net culture we have become spoilt by.
I respect the Chinese work ethic.

Why do so many British Chinese become doctors....pharmacists etc?
Whilst the British kids choose media studies.
They are brought up knowing how to work hard and to expect much of life will be hard work. I think that is a gift from parents somehow.

Same as SHThread, can someone post the iplayer link please?

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b019873g/Wonderland_Series_4_Meet_Britains_Chinese_Tiger_Mums/

Thank you Zhen

Tigers are so passe. We are dragons this year.

Fellatio I think you have it wrong when mentioning noses. The whole issue is more abstract. Think, more of Diane Abbott's comment about 'divide and rule'- and also think of her being rightly made to apologise for this by Milliband. We could all have a laugh ridiculing each other. The trouble at the end of the day is that stereotypes make it easy to dehumanise.
You, for example, are not just a slightly bigger nose. You are far more complex and valuable than that.

No-one's a dragon until the 23rd!

It's my year this year (but I'm not telling you how old I am )

Thank you for the link!

I live in a country where ethnic Chinese is the majority. I see Tiger Moms every day at nursery, at kiddie gyms and at school. Some of them are a nightmare, but then I also understand why they are like that. For example there was an article in the local newspaper recently. At age 11, the kids here sit a heavy set of exams and the results then determine which secondary school they go to, which in turn determines if they go to Uni/ Poly or Tech college (if at all). This particular 11-year old girl made front page news for having a very high score across all subjects and the little girl was quoted as saying she studied up to 6 hours a day extra after school for the exams. That broke my heart. The secondary school pretty much pre-determines their future. As a result, the parents who want them to succeed very highly (which is most) backtrack and send them to the best kindergarten, the best, primary school and have extra lessons after school from an early age (e.g. 2). My own son left a local kindergarten at 4 to go to Primary school reading like a 7 year old and able to converse at quite a good level in Mandarin! Some parents will camp out in a tent for days just to get their child into a perceivably good kindergarten. This has all rubbed off on me a bit and I have to say that I am a bit of a Tiger Mom. When I move back to a western country I hope to think that some of this will remain with me. I didn't see the program, but I bet it was very extreme. However one thing I have learn't from Tiger Moms is that a bit of discipline and a bit of a push from your mum can do your kids wonders. At one end of the extreme scale a Tiger kid has no play time, has piano, Mandarin, reading and maths lessons after school each day and all day on the weekend and then at the other end of the scale you have a child who doesn't ever pick up a book. Somewhere in the middle of both is the best place to be I think.

there must be a balance surely of supporting them academically and showing them that there is an expectation to do well and achieve but not at the cost of their childhood. I have 2 musically able boys age 7&9 and grades 5&7 on piano. I help them practise every day and am as proud as punch of them. However they never do longer than 30mins and I balance it with fun trips and lots of playtime. How bad a morher would I be not to encourage a talent?

Mozart wasn't just a musical genius.His father Leopold was Tiger Dad with knobs on. The child was doing concerts in court by the age of 3. He died a pauper at the age of 36. Was this successful parenting I wonder?

I'm involved with the clinical training of medical students at work and come across quite a few students who have been pushed through the tiger parenting method. This is not just Chinese students but every nationality including Indian, white, black , Jewish. All these students are academically able but what I find a lot of them lack, is empathy with patients and an intolerance of weakness in others. I think being told you have to the best all the time can make people feel life is always a competition and they become quite hard in order to cope with the pressure. I've observed a lot of these medics end up as surgeons, pathologists or in medical research where social skills are not a priority.

Janacek - no I don't think it was successful parenting, and is very sad - as much as I enjoy Mozart and the world has a wonderful legacy of music left behind from him.

NYr, that is a bit like the UK in parts. We got our children into very selective schools at 4 or 5 and then as you say abroad that works through generally how they do as they go on in life. I am not particularly a tiger parent compared to many but without doubt children into whom effort is put do better at that. The only reason our 5 have a load of grade 8 music exams is because that was a direction we put them in. Had it been football or ice skating they could similarly have done well.

As J says if you sit with children and encourage them they do well. However we all then decide what elements of force or otherwise we wish to use and plenty of families in my view take it to far too high an extreme. I want them to have lots of free time, hobbies, social skills and fun and the ability to bring a rounded person to an employer.

Outliers, a book I just read, said studies show 10,000 hours can make you good at something. Bill Gates who dropped out of college did at least 10,000 hours of programming. The Young Mozart woudl have done at least that. the Beatles in Berlin did 6 days a wek 6 hour sessions when they were starting out. I am pretty good at singing/music (it's just a hobby) and that will simply because of the hours I put in (and enjoyed). I am one of the best at what I do in my work in the UK and have been doing it without a break for 28 years so yes I got quite good at it. A lot of life is about effort as much as talent.

Mumzy I'd absolutely agree with the way the tiger parenting alters the kids emotional response to other people. Failure isn't an option so they can't see why other would/could do so.

I watched the programme by accident. I just ignored the silly part, or some parts didn't reflect the real Chinese soul at all,( not worth an debate here).
I am impressed with the 6,10 years old Mum who is speaking good English: I believe my son can do it, we don't take failure, or some similiare meanings.

I totally agree with that!

You chidren can do it or not depends on how much you are expecting from them. Chinese parents are expecting a lot from their children, we SHOULD too!