Big fat gypsy christmas(56 Posts)
I just caught 20 mins of this when I was channel surfing. There are loads of little girls trussed up in disgusting heavy but tight dresses with diamonds all over them. It looks so inappropriate, I don't understand how sexualising 7 year olds can be a cultural aspiration. Can anyone explain?
you are pissed off because i called you on your judginess. fine, i understand that isn't pleasant but there is no need to start insulting my level of education. that makes you look like the teenager tbh. fwiw i left school at 15, but i learnt enough to know not to judge anyone based on a channel 4 shock doc. there's being educated and then there's being intelligent. not the same thing, obviously.
You're coming across as neither, booyhoo
You can't 'call me on my judginess' but not explain why you think it's wrong - it doesn't mean anything.
no she wasnt a romany. she was an english/irish traveller.
who says that they are taught sex is shameful and disgusting? seriously not wanting young people to have sex before marriage is not the same as saying it is disgusting, it is saying that it is beautiful within marriage!
it probably looks to them that "country" women are all totally controlled and used as sex objects and servants! lol
The dark haired girl who was bullied? She was of Romany descent, that was given as one of the reasons why she didn't 'fit in' with the other girls. Although actually, it seemed more about her social skills, I thought she could have done with a bit more support in dealing with other people, what did you think?
They said that the word 'penis' was shameful and disgusting and refused to look at a representation of a naked man in an art gallery
If you really are interested in "normal"travellers,have a read of this,this young man puts it very well.
I have no doubt that there are small sections that live like this (but also wonder how much of this was hyped up for the cameras) but despair that huge sections of people watching these programmes think that this a typical view of these communities.
Agreed, Chanatan. So many people do base their opinions on this crass documentary. Most do not even know the difference between Roma and Irish travellers. It is not a documentary that enlightens or informs - it simply presents extremes.
That said, sexualisation is in the eye of the beholder. Do you watch a docu about a remote African tribe, see the women dancing without bras and think 'Phwoar, they are asking for it?' No of course you don't and their fellow tribespeople don't have that view either.
Also, it is not on to attack someone's level of education in an arguement. It's a low blow and not a great way to engage with someone if you wish to hear more about their culture. Personally I would like to READ more about the gypsy culture, rather than be dazzled and angered by a bad Channel 4 'docu.'
So please read this: pipopotamus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/open-letter-to-chanel-4.html
Otherwise you continue to perpetuate ignorance and infuriate a race of people.
punk I will read the link; however I actually do know quite a lot about Roma (particularly in Romania and the way the Roma culture clashes with mainstream culture) but next to nothing about travellers. I do think the poster's school leaving age was relevant - she can't seem to think properly or formulate an argument (which is often a result of a lack of education) and she provided next to no information (This is a problem with gypsies all over the world, many are taken out of school or the parents prefer them to be in remedial classes for less able children, because they are easier then the gypsy children miss out on an education and remain at the bottom of the socio-economic pile). She wanted only to say over and over that I am judgmental and wrong which may be, but that statement needs some information to back it up or it is meaningless. She wouldn't engage anyway despite my asking for information and opinion, her contribution to the thread was pretty much nothing.
The little girls dressed in tight, adult style, sexualised dresses are quite different from a traditional cultural style of eg African tribes. I think it is disingenuous to suggest they are not following patterns of westernised sexuality because they clearly are.
i thought that girl was a bit arrogant and thought she was better then the rest of them coz she had an education and stuff.
Very very good article, Chanatan. Not a great deal that I didn't already know but a few things that helped fill in gaps. The odd thing is when someone has any negative exchange with a gypsy, they brand all of them the same. If this is done with black or Asian people, it is called blatant racism.
I had a friend who as part of her job visited traveller sites to weigh their babies. Yes they do have a suspicion of people but when my daughter's headmistress told her school that 'Please don't talk to the gypsies - they smell and steal' one child threw stones at them. What a charming way to interact with a different race.
That said, I think that communities do need to talk, to understand one another. Some tolerance and more journalism like this article, might help.
Sexuality is, as I said, in the eyes of the beholder. Channel 4 have picked extremes of colour, costume and behaviour. Many Roma and Irish Traveller do not recognise this stereotype. I am from an Indian background and I might react just as strongly if there were stereotypes presented to me to which I could not relate. I have seen my little niece gyrate to a Beyonce video - the sexualisation that pop stars push psuh push is far more worrying that a couple of innocent children at a wedding, separate from the men, having a good time.
I have heard it said that racisim against travellers and gypsies is still the one form of racisim that people still find acceptable,however it is still racisim and needs stamping out,its no fun when you or worse still your children are on the end of such racisim.
chanatan thanks for posting that pdf link.
Clash isn't really the right word, it is not about a difference in cultures, it is about the issues remaining from the Roma being enslaved by the people of what's now Romania and Slovakia (Roma do not come from Romania, my close friend who is Roma gets that all the time and it frustrates her to no end - she doesn't want to be equated with people who enslaved and killed hers). The capturing and holding them in pens like animals through enslavement and this treatment went on into how the Nazi's treated them. These issues come into the modern day.
Channel 4 really needs to end these shows, it's just fanning the flames of bigotry and the fact they refuse to listen to the communities they are affecting is horrible. They've now sold them to the States where it is just getting worse.
i am not a traveller
i left school at 15 because i could
i didn't 'enlighten' you because some of the references you made to children disgusted me quite frankly and i felt that anyone who could think of children in such a way clearly didn't have the intelligence and/or inclination to want to truly understand their culture as opposed to just getting more fodder for their ignorant prejudices.
i did provide information that opposed your assumption about traveller girls. i gave you my experience. this may not be in the form of a clickable link but it is information from a person who has met and interacted with travellers as opposed to a collation of data put together by officials who tick boxes.
my opinion is that you need to have a rethink about your views on young girls and some of the things you have called them on this thread.
feel free to continue to try and intimate that i am stupid.
Actually, there is a big clash in cultures. For example, the government in Romania had a huge demand for housing from the Roma community. But the Roma community tended to see the allocated housing as a place to live in but not maintain because it was not theirs. There were big issues with eg graffiti and other delapidations caused by Roma not 'looking after the properties' (as we might call it). Instead of treating this as a problem with individual tenants, the government saw it as a cultural problem and stuck a group of Roma in shipping containers instead of finding and allocating them proper housing. The Romanian government thought it had found a solution because the shipping containers didn't need maintaining. However, obviously, shipping containers are not a great or comfortable place to live and the housing needs of those housed there were not being met adequately.
Another problem is education and trying to ensure all children are educated to a minimum legal standard. This received strong opposition from a number of Roma parents, who did not find education to be necessary (especially for girls) and who live largely by a philosophy whereby you should find the easiest path in life. This philosophy often equated to parents trying to get their children into special needs classes because they were the least challenging for their children. The parents did not see the education as relevant to them or as something they should engage in.
The above are just 2 examples of where Roma culture clashes with a more mainstream one and where problems have arisen in Romania.
If you read the article properly you will see exactly why some members of the Roma community (and travellers) do not value education. It is not to choose the 'easiest path in life' (what nonsense) - it is in fact because many of them become self-employed rather than deal with bigotry in the workplace. So education becomes less important than going out to work. To say that they choose the easiest path simply is another way of saying they are lazy. Also they may distrust non-gypsy people in schools because of bullying. They are also nervous about being corrupted by things like drugs in schools. They are rather protective of their own.
Please read the article before posting such generalised nonsense.
I have worked with Roma communities in Romania, helping them to fight for their human rights and I can tell you that is their take on life. You are the one putting the value judgement on it their philosophy is to enjoy life and take the easiest path, your interpretation of that might be different from what I said.
The Roma mentioned in the article I lnked to are not Romanian gypsies but English Romany gypsies(may have had their origins to romania) but this article refers to what I would call a traditional gypsy and the difference betwen The Romany gypsy and Irish travellers.In my part of the country most Romany gypsies have realised that their traditional ways of earning a living have now died out and now try to ensure that their children recive a full education and many go on to work in trades.I know a couple of gypsie girls that have gone to uni and are now teachers.
chanatan I was commenting on punk's linked article, I haven't read all of yours yet, will look at it in a min
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
"I don't understand how sexualising 7 year olds can be a cultural aspiration."
"there are loads of kids at the parties who look like little hookers." - nice
no-one mentioned jimmy saville. i am not alone in thinking that OP has chosen to see a sexual element in the clothing worn by these children.
You are homogenizing, there are hundreds of groups within the Roma with different philosophies, languages and dialects, roots and traditions. The Ursari, Kaldera, uuwaje are not all the same even if they all have roots in Romania and they will all have different communities which react to their oppression differently, nor are they like the Lotfita, Servika, Kovacki and dozens of others in and overlapping rooted in neighbouring countries. And none of these are connected to the Irish Travelers that these shows are about who are not connected other groups with others groups within the Irish Traveler community and they not connected to the many other traveler groups. There is a lot of diversity that is being neglected by these shows and is whitewashed when you say "Their philosophy is X". My Servika friend is currently working on her PhD and she is of great pride - that is not the easy path.
The Roma were enslaved. The issues with that go far beyond differences of culture many of their actions today were created to survive being penned up outside like animals. The issues with education are true across many oppressed groups - in Canada there was a recent study in which a few mainly Black schools put in a controversial curriculum which included such measures like learning about the African diaspora and African history as well as Canadian history, including more Black authors in English and Black inventors and scientists and generally raising the status of Black people that are traditionally ignored. This group of Black children which would normally have a high dropout rate and considered to have a low view on education ended up not only have great improvement but ended up scoring higher than their white peers on the traditional whitewashed curriculum. Making the curriculum relevant is an important first step, and many areas aren't willing to be more inclusive in their curriculum because those in charge still are set in the mindset of those that oppressed and enslaved them in the first place - which is why the oppressed groups rebel against it and have comparatively poor outcomes.
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