Strggling with DS1 (long, sorry)

[mumto3boys]

I'm hoping some more experienced parent of teenagers can give me some advice, or even a new perspective as I am really struggling with DS1.

I have posted various things about him before but am now at the point where I feel I am getting everything wrong.

He is 13 and in year 8. He has always been very bright but from about halfway through reception he started to misbehave at school. Everyone, including the teachers, felt this was down to boredom but despite the best efforts from us and teachers, it never really improved! By naughty I do not mean nasty or bullying, more low level disruption, annoyance and laziness. He is also not exceptionally bright or gifted, just more 'top end'.

He has always managed to do very well with minimum effort. His school work has always been appalling. When made to, he can produce very good pieces of work but if not checked, he would literally hand in one line as a piece of homework.

Now 2 terms into year 8 and it is getting quite serious. The behaviour also is not getting better and he is very immature, both in behaviour and physically, which I do not think is helping.

At his school they have 3 pathways. He is in the middle pathway. We have recently found that the work is the same for the top pathway, and for the top end of the middle pathway which is where he is. The difference seems to be attitude and behaviour. They have a uniform and equipment card which is signed each time they are missing a piece of uniform or equipment. For every 5 signatures there is an after school detention. Since spetember he has had 15 signatures!!

We have just had parents evening which was frankly excruciating. He apparently cannot be sitting next to anybody in some subjects as he just will not get on, and disturbs others. He was described as lazy by some teachers. He will not accept responsibility for his actions, which we well know, and when told off acts like he is being treated unfairly.

Just before parents evening I spoke with the head of year who suggested he be put on report. After one week only just over half of his lessons had at least a satisfactory outcome. Even on the day of parents evening he did not have some books with him, you would think whilst on report and on parents evening day he would maybe bother a little!

We had also just become aware that a fair amount of his tech written work had not been done and the first we heard was an after school detention. WE went through with him what was missing and made him complete it to a good standard. Only to find there was still another piece of work to do.

A couple of hours ago he was sitting around so I asked him to go do it. Only to find him laying on the sofa, literally scrawling a few words in his tech book. So I made him get a plain piece of A4 and do it again, stick it over the original (I will explain this to the teacher in a note) as I just will not let him keep doing this. During this time his friend turned up but I made him finish it before he went out, which I am sure was embarrassing but I am past caring now.

We are at our witts end with his school work now. We were told he is capable of straight As at GCSE but he will not get them unless he applies himself. I have removed his xbox until he improves and since a few days ago also his lap top as his attitude is appalling at the mo. Part of me now feels like I am too involved - checking books, planner, homework etc and making him re do work. He is also annoyed that it was mainly down to me that he was put on report but at parents evening all the teachers were saying thank goodness we did (still need to get to the bottom of why they didn't do it first!)But what else can we do. His attitude is getting worse, probably hormonal too but he just cannot accept responsibility for anything. Apparently none of the signatures on his card have been his fault and all the low scores on his report card for the week are due to the teachers being horrible and miserable.

When he started secondary school we did decide to let him make his own mistakes and take the punishment if he missed work but he just doesn't get it, as he won't believe that he is ever at fault. It got to the point where we had to intervene or he will flunk all his subjects. He school report this year will be appalling.

So now he is without an x box or his laptop and I have told him he will not get them back until there is a significant improvement at school and in his attitude. I have also said that if he continues to misbehave and not do his work and also be so awful at home he will lose his phone and facebook / msn.

He is also continually telling us that no one else does better with their work. Everyone has more signatures than him. They all get loads more pocket money and a later bed time, plus their parents don't check their work etc. We have explained that firstly we are not the parents of everyone else and secondly we would love to not have to check his school work etc but if we don't, he doesn't do it! I think the pocket moeny and bed times are reasonable too but he has almost convinced me that we are getting this all very wrong.

So, my question is, are we getting this wrong? Should we just back off and let him get on with it? Is removing the x box and laptop too harsh?

Every night we send him off to pack his school bag and I think he just stands in his room for 5 mins and comes out again. Nothing seems to drum into him that he needs to change his attitude.

He does listen, apologise, say he will improve etc and within 24 hours its back to the same.

I am considering bribery but am not convinced it will work.

I am also aware he is not taking drugs, nicking cars, having underage sex etc etc. But he is being a pain in the arse at school, a bit disrespectful to us and teachers, lying and not doing as he is asked.

Please help!

[Bellabellabella]

I have no words of wisdom other than I do not think you are being too harsh.Tell him what he needs to do to get his things back and stick to it. This is just a personal view but an x box, laptop and facebook are not things my son had at 13. He is not getting a laptop til next year - A Levels! Good luck, it will not be easy but will be worth it in the end. You are very loving parents.

[mumto3boys]

Thanks, its nice to hear as all i'm getting at the moment is a load of attitude about how harsh we are being!

The lap top isn't quite what it seems. His dad (my ex) gave him his old one for xmas, it just has games on it, no internet or anything. But that said, we are also beginning to think he has too much. The xbox he got this xmas and was allowed facebook when he turned 13. However, a lot of his behaviour is what I would call that of a spoilt brat and at the moment he is not deserving of those things. Of course, EVERYONE has an xbox, plus mobile, ipod (he doesn't) and internet in their bedroom (no way, ever!)

Give me the terrible twos any day!

[Bellabellabella]

Do not worry,
we had the 'spoilt brat' thing a week or two ago! He has been told, it has to stop. We are 'horrible' parents and like you - no internet in bedroom (or TV) Understand about the laptop now. Keep going!

[Faigle]

Hi Mumto3 boys,

You have described my DS almost exactly! At the moment he is driving me crazy-literally I feel so anxious and depressed trying to deal with his behaviour. He is rude, selfish, inconsiderate, immature, bright and extremely articulate when arguing with me,over reacts in certain situations, aggressive, and very lazy with regarad to school work. At Primary he was on the G&T list, but now at Secondary due to his bad attitude and laziness he is not excelling or reaching anywhere near his academic potential.

I live alone with him, no other DCs or DP-though he sees his dad a fair bit.

The use /abuse of PC/Wii/TV is also a constant source of conflict between us.

Can't add too much or even offer much advice, but as he sounded so much like my DS I wanted to let you know you are far from alone and I truly understand how you are feeling.

Where do you live? If it were nearish maybe we could meet and offer eachother mutual support?

[mummytime]

My sons school doesn't do parents evenings as such, but instead sets targets for pupils each term. I think this works better.
Try setting targets with your son, which are achievable, simple and measurable. Also do make it clear that he will have to get a job after leaving school, and you will not be supporting him (unless he has great exam grades and there are no jobs).
I am training to be a teacher and was amazed to hear some disruptive pupils telling me they plan to go to university, unless they change their attitude they just will not be getting the grades (although they are capable).
Is there anyone your son respects? Anyone you can get to mentor him who is not a parent?

Good luck!

[Faigle]

Just want to say that your advice, particuarly re: monetary reward rather than punishment sounds really sound maryZ.

I will spend some time later/tomorrow thinking it through and working out how to present it to DS as a new way of approaching the difficulities he is fully aware that we have between us.

Having money/financial autonomy means a lot to DS. I've always hated the idea of reward/bribery, but if it works-hell I will get a bloody bank loan to implement it!

[mumto3boys]

Mary - thanks I do appreciate what you are saying and the thought of it all backfiring has been on my mind.

Sometimes he's lovely and normal, other times he's pretty horrid, stroppy, defiant etc but more in a normal teenage way rather than out of control - no swearing, violence or anything. He is really pushing the boundaries at the mo, although right now he's sat with us all and reading a book. He eats with us and will come out if it interests him or on family days out etc. Sometimes though, I don't like him pr his attitude.

He knows that he wants to be a marine biologist or similar so needs a degree and good a levels etc. Us telling him that if he doesn't pull his socks up and he will restrict his option choices did shock him, but still it doesn't seem to have been enough.

I'm now thinking of giving £1 for every A and 50p for every B for pieces of work, just for a short term incentive. PLus maybe the same again for the top score on his report card for each lesson when he goes back. Money is evrything at the moment. He also wants his xbox back obviously but don't want to do it after a week of good work at school only for it to go downhill again!

Faigle, sorry you're going through the same! We're in Essex. Two if his teachers also said they have been through the same with their sons, which actually made it worse I think!

[Littlepurpleprincess]

Just wanted to say that rewards and bribary are two VERY different things so don't ever feel bad about giving rewards! The difference is; rewards are given when the behaviour you want has happened (eg, you have done your homework so now you can have your xbox), Bribes are given before the behaviour you want has happens (eg, if I give you your xbox back now, you have to do your homework).

Rewards =

Bribes =

I have found with boys that you need to be specific (this still apllies to DP, age means nothing ).

If you say "I need you to change" he won't have a bloody clue, so like others have said, you need to give clear goals. For example, "you are going to do all your homework this week. I will check with your teachers that this has happened. It is your responasability to decide when/how you achieve this. If you do all your homework, you may have your xbox for the week-end."

Leave it at that exactly and don't engage in any further discussion about it. You've given him a fair chance, and the responasability is all on him so when he does achieve it, he can be proud of himself (though he will never admit this to you!). You've offered a fair reward.

He may not acheive it first week (I'd be shocked if he did) don't tell him off, just tell him straight. "That's a shame, you can't have your xbox this weekend, but I'm sure you'll manage it next week". END OFF. If he argues you will have to switch off, like you would with a toddler tantrum. I would walk away.

And like someone else said, enjoy the rest of your time with him. You and he know the rules and nagging doesn't get you anywhere so forget about it and spend some nice time together.

Also agree that he should be aware he needs good grades to get a job. He will need a job because when he is a grown up he will have to pay for his own home and car. At 13 he may not have realised that he will have to look after himself one day and I would say that is normal. 13 is young, he doesn't have the same ability to look to the future that you do yet so he won't see the same implications of doing well/badly at school that you do.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

That was a really long post I hope I didn't come across as a know it all. I work with kids and know a bit about behaviour management. I wanted to give you something practical to try. Hope it's helpful.

[mumto3boys]

Ha, compared to my OP that was nothing

Very very helpful thank you. One of my biggest faults is I find it really hard to back off and stop nagging which I know doesn't help.

Think I will try to shut up about it for the rest of the Easter break and maybe next weekend tell him the new 'reward' system and stick to it. I have a big problem where if it doesn't work straight away, I change the reward / punishment which I know doesn't help at all and we eed to be consistent.

Hadn't thought about the diving course. Great idea

[tatt]

year 8 often seems to be a really hard year, if that's any consolation.

You do need to be harsh with them. Things like laptop, facebook are privileges you pay for and they need to be earned. He earns them by behaving well and doing his school-work and if he doesn't do that he hasn't earned them. It's very important that they don't come to expect everything as a right.

Bribes are just rewards by another name! If you work hard and get no signatures on your report card you will earn ....

I tell mine I have to feed and clothe them but the food can be brussels sprouts and water if they don't behave themselves. I don't have to fund phones/ music lessons/sports clubs/trips out with friends or provide net access. They get the message eventually.

[mumto3boys]

Oh dear, i'm a bit lacking on rules 1,2 & 4.

Looks like I need to start now on less nagging and sticking to my guns.

Tatt I totally agree, I think I just struggle when I am told how utterly unfair I am and that no other parents are the same. Makes me doubt myself.

Wish me luck!

[Mems]

We don't call them bribes or rewards in our house - they're incentives!

[Littlepurpleprincess]

I am really serious about rewards and bribes! They are absolutely NOT the same thing. I may seem OTT but if you can seperate the two, and use rewards NOT bribes you will be well on your way.

The child has to earn rewards.

Bribes are given beforehand, so the child already has what they want, and therefore doesn't see any reason why they should do what you want.

[mumto3boys]

LPP - O totally agree. I wouldn't be giving him his rewards before he has earnt them

[inthesticks]

mumto3boys there seems to be lots of solid advice here.
I have a boy in year nine and he's quite bright but not inclined to work hard at subjects which don't come easily. One of his teachers said to me at the beginning of year 8 that it was a year when many boys start to slack off and he was quite tough on them. Sure enough we saw a gradual slowing down of effort, not on the scale you describe but noticeable.
I have always done rewards for achievements and good reports but usually after the event. At the start of this year (Y9)DH and I gave DS a list of rewards he will get if he meets targets and gets As for effort and attitude. We deliberately made it much more generous than ever before and it has definately made a difference. We may be bankrupt.

I also agree about backing off nagging but it's so hard.

[scaryteacher]

What I do for homework is prep.

Ds (14, year 9) gets in at 4.20 approx. He has til 5 o'clock to get something to eat and drink and then we chat. At 5 o'clock he sits at the table and does his homework. I am about, maybe reading, or doing some of my own school work for my MA, so am available if he needs help.

He does homework until 7, or earlier if he finishes it, then we sort dinner out, and he has free time after dinner until he goes to bed at about 10 o'clock.

This is the only thing that works for us, as he won't do the work if left on his own.

Your ds sounds like he has year 8 dip. If he is not kicked out of it, then it will drag on into year 9, and by the time year 10 comes around the pattern of not working is too engrained to break (hence prep time here).

[tatt]

"think I just struggle when I am told how utterly unfair I am and that no other parents are the same. Makes me doubt myself."

Yep - had that T-shirt. In fact I'm only just beginning to think we might be getting through this stage. My teens (older than yours) are finally showing the odd sign of responsibility. Tell him you've asked other parents and you're definitely not the only one.

[Bonsoir]

Does he do sports? What activities outside school does he do?

IMVHO many boys are far too immature to be required to take responsibility for their own actions when they start secondary school - they need micro-management with very clear micro-boundaries in order to teach them what is and is not acceptable behaviour.

[basildonbond]

I think it is partly a maturity thing ... ds1 was (still is sometimes) exactly like your ds1 with added volatility (diagnosed with Tourette's Syndrome at 4) ...

I'd been dreading him being a teenager as he'd been so difficult all the way through primary, but this year (13, y8) he's finally starting to behave - amazingly he's not got into any trouble at all since half-way through the autumn term when we got called into school to witness him being hauled over the coals by the head of year.

However, the decision to behave had to come from him - now he's been behaving well for a significant amount of time his teachers have backed off and he's finding life much more pleasant all round.

Having said that, he's lost xbox this week as despite promising that he'd done all the homework set over the holiday (only 2 pieces) - I discovered at 9pm last night (first day back today) he'd only done about 5 mins worth

on the whole, as they get older, most boys will eventually realise that it's in their own best interests to knuckle down

We're also apparently the meanest parents in the world as xbox, computer, tv are all in the family living room not in his bedroom!

[skandi1]

Hi

Don't have a teenager but I was one and I was really badly behaved at times.

Was very capable at school but at age 14 suddenly mostly couldn't be arsed and wanted to read books or watch telly (my teenage years predate modern technology such as xbox or internet).

I only started towing the line when my work was checked and there were consequenes for actions (or inaction on the homework part).

And the consequenses had to be "serious" as in no tv for a week etc etc. No friends round. etc. It was the only way.

After some months of trying to buck the system I learned that if I was rude to teachers - lazy and disruptive at school and didn't do my homework, I would not get to do anything fun and tv and friends were out of bounds.

It was a power struggle between me and parents and I remember it very clearly because until age 14 I was really good and pretty much always did homework and wasn't disruptive in class. Guess hormornes came over me and I decided I wanted to rebel.

The reason my parents won the power struggle is that the were prepared to take everything from me in terms of leisure time and fun activities. And impliment punishments such as additional household chores such as weeding the garden (soooo boring most teenagers would capitulate quickly), washing skirting boards etc.

And my parents were not afraid to tell any of my friends who phoned that actually I could not come to the phone because I had misbehaved at school/been rude to adult/not done homework and therefore not allowed to use the phone. Very very embarrassing but sooo effective.

Am now mid 30s with degree + postgraduate degree, had professional career and now have Lovely DD and husband.

I remember the time clearly as it was the first time my parents had ever said no to me and implimented serious discipline.

It really worked and I'm not mentally scarred in anyway

Don't be afraid or hesitate to take phone xbox internet facebook the lot and get your DS to do some chores. Boring chores really helps give time to think about actions too.
Hope you find a way

[mumto3boys]

Right well having had the Easter hols to really think things through we seem to have aplan.

Firstly I have had him kept on report for the next few weeks. IF, this week he doesn't get any 1's or 2's on the card (graded up to 5) and when I speak to jead of year on friday ALL his class work and homework has been completed to a good standard, he can have his xbox for the weekend only. I will then take it back monday and we will repeat the process again for the next few weeks. If we see a huge improvement, he will earn it back, until such time that he slips again.

I am giving 50p for every 5 on his report card. PLus £1 for every A and 50p for every B on his classwork. He will also earn £1 for ebery level 6 he gains in a science test as he is more than capable and needs to work to his full potential.

The laptop is linked to his attitude at home and he wil earn that back with significant improvement.

So far the report card is up and down. It's either excellent and grade 5 or struggled to stay on task - no in between. On monday he did very very well but that was day 1 and I know from experience he will slip into old habits, hence the fact that this needs to keep going for a few weeks.

He also has exams in June for which we are paying him small sums for good results - I mean £1 etc but it seems to be enough incventive for him, he just needs to keep focussed.

Funnily enough though his attitude at home seems to have got slightly worse, which I think is him trying to exter some control, very spoilt brat behaviour. Pushing the boundaries I think. I think having set rewards and sanctions for different things is helping as he can do weel in one area and be rewarded, then punished in another area - whereas before if we took his xbox for attitude at home, when he was bad at school we had no other effective punishment.

Am hoping he skints us completely.

Thanks for all the fab advice on this thread. I am sure I will be back when the honeymoon period wears off, think we wil have to keep this going for the long haul!