Help me sort this out with dd2 (13)

(24 Posts)
Theas18 Wed 13-Feb-13 08:58:07

Well last night again I didn't shout or nag...she didn't however manage to fit in everything she should have done - though managed to Facebook... ( homework one practice not. )

Slept probably 11 both nights.

She's singing late today ( ash Wednesday) be interesting how much she complains of being tired after! I shall not say I told ou so either!

sashh Wed 13-Feb-13 07:06:22

If she gets herself up and is fine then why does she have to go to bed when you say so?

How about a 9.30 you are in your bedroom being quiet and go to sleep when you want rule?

flow4 Tue 12-Feb-13 07:51:48

Generally I agree with you, startail. But if you, as a parent, are not a night person, or not as much of a night person as your teen, then you have a very real and stressful problem when they become nocturnal...

DS1, who's 17, goes to sleep when he likes. He's done so for a couple of years... There have been a lot of mornings when he hasn't managed to get up - college doesn't seem to mind as much as I do. sad And I have often been disturbed in the middle of the night by DS1's TV, which sometimes means I can't get back to sleep, and that I have to go to work on 4 hours sleep, or less.

DS2 has just turned 13. I still think he's young enough that he should be asleep before me... Which means chasing him at 10 or so, not midnight...

All in all, I'd say sleep (and the lack of it) has been one of our top sources of stress and conflict over the years. sad

I agree confiscating gadgets doesn't work - or it hasn't for me. But I can really understand parents' frustration and the temptation to try it!

Astelia Tue 12-Feb-13 03:24:52

PS I am not up at 3.30am honest, I am not that bad. We are 8 hours ahead.

Astelia Tue 12-Feb-13 03:23:12

wise words from Startail too

Astelia Tue 12-Feb-13 03:21:29

I don't feel tired until very late, have always been like this and the DDs 14 and 17 are the same. As Flow says, pick your battles. We let ours do their own thing, there are no fixed bedtimes. They have all their gadgets and wifi.

If they can't get up for school then we will act, and they know this. Unfortunately school starts early here and they have to be up at 6.45am so we all catch up sleep at the weekend.

Startail Tue 12-Feb-13 00:49:58

I am in awe of parents who take away gadgets.
My lot have lap tops, phones, iPods, DSs, not to mention old MO3 players and a portable CD player.

It would be dawn before we found them all!

Anyway as I say it's books that are my lots downfall and I've got quite enough of my own. I have no book case space for theirs.

DD1 is simply a night owl like me, if you chase her to bed she doesn't sleep. She just gets wound up and gets up and down her bunk ladder and goes to the loo again just like a toddler.

I learnt never to attempt to get her to bed before 8pm then. I'm not going to suggest lights out until close on 12 now.

First law of parenting, don't start a battle you cannot win.

(You cannot make a child eat or sleep, I have wasted endless frayed nerves with DD2 over food, no way am I going to fight over bed time.)

Theas18 Mon 11-Feb-13 22:18:24

Well we, talked. I suggested, as she had no suggestions to make-gadgets away by 9.30 ( on her desk where she can't get them from bed).

she was in bed by 10. I set no bedtime.

I didn't shout., all good.

Ds gave his 17 yr wisdom in the form of "if you don't go to bed 11.30 for a week you'll be knackered" and staggered off to bed at 9.30! The boy us learning lol

Tomorrow still be interesting, she's out till 7..

bubby64 Mon 11-Feb-13 21:42:40

Forgot to say, we do relax this rule at weekends, and will also not be rigid about it in the holidays, last Saturday they were both still up and about at 11pm, but , because they had a lazerquest session booked with mates for 10am on Sunday I told them if they overslept I wouldn't be waking them they would have to get themselves up and ready - they made it, even if it wad with only about 5minutes to spare!

bubby64 Mon 11-Feb-13 21:34:30

We had this fight nightly on weekdays with my 2 DS' s (12yrs), and it got so stressful DH and I were arguing regularly over it. I said to DH, who is quite rigid in his thinking about dicipline and routine, we should give them a chance to learn for themselves. We now send them up at 9pm, and go up to remove 'phones at 10. They are not allowed to be on xbox or computer after 9. We dont insist on an actual sleep time, just upstairs and giving us some 'adult' space in the evening. We have said to them they must get up in the morning on school days without complaining and if they don't, that night they have no phones, computers, or anything after 7pm, and have to be in bedroom by 8.30. We have been doing this a fortnight now, and they have each had one 8.30 bedtime, which TBH, they didn't complain about as they were knackered!!grin

Dd (almost 13) goes at 9.30 at the latest on a school night. She iOS usually asleep by 10, and all phones and other technology are out of bounds once she is in bed.

Midnight is far too late for a child who gets up at 6/7 for school.

I see the effects of inadequate sleep every day at work- children who are yawning, unproductive and difficult to engage.

lljkk Mon 11-Feb-13 19:19:47

I have a timer on the lamp in DS's room. He has figured out that the light goes off 9:33pm to about 6am. He hasn't figured out why, yet.

Startail Mon 11-Feb-13 19:06:23

You go in at midnight and say lights out.

I can conceive anyone attempts to do anything else with a child over 13.

You are all simply mad.

My Dad got this one sussed when I was 12, works fine with DD1.

DD2 is less of a night owl and i suspect may settle nearer 11pm in a years time.

10-10.30 is about as likely as pigs flying.

lljkk Mon 11-Feb-13 17:57:51

Welcome to my life.

flow4 Mon 11-Feb-13 15:03:06

I know. It's not straightforward. That's why parenting a teenager is so difficult - it's a time when things shift and change, and things that worked before stop working, and new situations arise and you have no idea how to deal with them!

And you have to start giving them more control over their own lives, or they will fight you for it, and you will almost certainly lose. hmm

Of course she'll need down-time. If you are convinced she is currently asleep by 10pm, then yes, she'll need to hand over her tech at 9:30pm. But if, realistically, you know she's not asleep til 10:30-11 most nights (which is the case with my DS, whatever time he goes up to bed), then a 10pm hand-over is fine IMO.

It's hard to find reliable info. I found this Irish academic study which seems comprehensive and reliable.
It reports that 90% of 9-16 year olds use social media, incl. 75% of 13-14yos - and more girls than boys. 56% of 13-14yos are allowed to go online any time, without parental supervision.

Of course she won't be a 'social pariah', but she'll be in a minority, and she won't like it. No doubt she'll survive, but she'll fight you, and you will have added stress. The question is, is it worth it? If it is, fine, then you'll just have to have the battle. But if not, then 'don't sweat the small stuff', as they say.

The US National Sleep Foundation has done some research into teenagers' sleep needs. It says they need +8.5hrs per night at least, but only 15% of them get it on a school night.

It is a well established fact that teenagers' body clocks change, and that their natural 'bedtime' (the time melatonin makes us feel sleepy) is later than both younger children's and adults - around 11pm-1am (see NSF website above, and this BBC science article ).

The problem with teenagers' sleep is widespread, and it's to do with their getting up times, not their bedtimes. I've never understood why school starts at 9am and not midday for teenagers - which would make much more sense! Meanwhile while we plan the revolution grin if your DD, like many teens, isn't ready to sleep at 9 or 10pm, then it seems to me there's little point in trying to force her - because you're actually fighting against her body clock and hormones, so you're likely to lose! She can do what most teens do, and sleep all weekend to catch up - and you'll have a much more stress-free family life! grin

Theas18 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:13:53

Thanks flow again!

I'll see what she says... however I also am very aware that she is likely to need a down time between getting off her screen and going to bed in order to actually sleep.

Any stats about how much sleep a 13yr old should get (approx) anyone can point me to? She gets up just after 6, so going to bed at 10 she's got a very scant chance of 8hrs, which really doesn't seem enough. I know thinks have "moved on" re technology and communication since the eldest was 13,but will she rally be a social pariah if she's not on line at 9-10pm? THe 17yr old I'm sure would, but at 13?

flow4 Mon 11-Feb-13 10:13:55

It's your call (of course), but I will just point out that the line you are drawing is exactly the point of conflict! If she has no phone/internet from 9pm, then she has no contact with her peers at exactly the busiest time of the day/night - which is when she will most want to be in touch. There is absolutely no doubt that 13 yo olds are online/messaging/texting most between 8pm and 10pm - after activities, music lessons, teatime, family and homework have been dealt with! (And there's not much point comparing her with older siblings, because technology and social media have changed so quickly).

Just as an example, I was sat playing a game of chess with DS2 last night, between 9-9:40pm, and his 'phone and iPod pinged more than 20 times!

So I predict that if you try to impose a 9pm cut-off, your DD will be very unhappy about it, and you will have an ongoing battle.

If it were me, I'd tell her you're prepared to consider a slightly later hand-over time in exchange for less faffing and conflict at bedtime. Then ask her what she thinks is reasonable, make sure you concede something so she feels she's gained (as a reward for negotiating sensibly) and accept any offer before 10pm! If she doesn't make a sensible offer, suggest 9:30 and tell her you'll review it in a week... smile

Theas18 Mon 11-Feb-13 08:37:21

flow thanks that is a thought. She gets up fine and spends 45mins sitting doing nothing again

I shall have a none shouty talk then suggest gadgets/radio/phone etc off/in our bedroom at 9pm (with the assumption that it'll happen between 9 and 9.30 then...) and leave her to it after that I think, and see how it goes.

Over half term I'd like to leave her to it completely but I think she still needs to be off the internet by 9 ish..... she's getting more freedom than the older 2 in that regard as they didn't have net in bedrooms till age 15 anyway.

Then I will no longer shout. I will ask DS to tell me if I'm " on her case too much" and leave her to it. i'll give it a month incl half term and we'll see (might have to vent on here though! sorry)

flow4 Mon 11-Feb-13 08:08:53

You haven't mentioned mornings, Theas... What's she like in the morning? Does she get up ok? If so, I'd relax bedtime, cos she's still managing and let's face it, there will always be things to be stroppy about!

My DS2 is also 13, and resists bedtime til after 10pm. If I ask him to go to bed before then, he takes 45 mins faffing about; but if I wait til 9:45 before sending him up, he seems far quicker. hmm It might be that your 'middle ground' is just to concede half an hour.

Alonglongway Sun 10-Feb-13 23:20:39

What about trying to get her to work out and understand what her sleep needs are? I have one who's a night owl and one who needs loads of sleep and so long as she gets enough, is great in the mornings.

I take all gadgets off my 13 year old DD and then leave her to it, in her room.

She is usually pretty tired as she is very active during the day, but on any subject there is absolutely no reasoning with her at the moment so I can empathise with your problems.

VBisme Sun 10-Feb-13 22:58:59

We've a 13 (almost 14) year old who is exactly the same, just prevaracates for ages when it gets to bedtime.

Reasoning simply doesn't seem to work (you need to get a decent nights sleep so that you concentrate on school), so I think just keeping on their case is all we can do - I hope someone else comes up with something better!

I do remember similar issues with my parents at about the same age.......

Snazzynewyear Sun 10-Feb-13 22:58:49

I was (and am) totally like this, always enjoyed staying up and was a night owl. After a while my parents left me to it and I managed my own bedtime (yes, at 13). I take your point that she is tired and stroppy, though be careful you are actually judging this fairly - is she definitely loads better if she goes to bed earlier?

My suggestion - half and half it? She gets an early night (by which say 9.30-10) one night then you will let her choose her own bed time the next night.

Theas18 Sun 10-Feb-13 22:52:29

Dd2 is lovely really. However I'm "always on her case" -ds confirms this. It's really making me horrid as a mum and I hate it.

She is "perfect" at school etc etc

However, we've just had a typical evening - she will not go to bed!! Sent to get ready , she fnds something/nothing to do to just not go to bed .... I removed her radio and tablet earlier as she was prattng about when she was supposed to be practicing (then of course after the strop she did a great session... So she might have been texting (or using her ancient itouch) but she tells me she was revising - she probably was - but why not do it Before -She's had all weekend??

So 10.10 pm she was still in even ready for bed.

I have no idea what to do next. If she goes to bed when she likes she's tired and stroppy. I think she's just wanting to do what ds (17) does, and go to bed when she likes.

I am so fed up with always being cross with her though.

I've said well discuss it tomorrow . Swinging between have it your way fi a fortnight and well see what happens , and removing all gadgets , and no tv/radio/anything till all home work/ practice etc is done (and nothing after 9 pm). The latter isn't going to work as she needs net acess or school at least some of time, and also ses home before me.

Can see a middle ground. Can you?

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