Absolutely unbelievable DSD is taking the p**s!!!

(109 Posts)
louby44 Wed 18-Sep-13 18:34:20

So DP eldest DD15 has blanked him for 2 months. He's made a bit of progress with DD13 and took her out for lunch on Saturday which he really enjoyed but DD15 refused to go. She did speak to her dad for 5 minutes though.

She has just text him to ask if he can put £25 in her bank account!!
Her mum won't add any more as she already gives her £40 a month and a further £50 every 3 months (for clothes).

DP hasn't even replied to her. I cannot believe that she has the cheek to text her dad to ask for money, it just sums her up!

She should pack in smoking and learn to budget.

Bonsoir Wed 18-Sep-13 18:35:23

What is the financial agreement?

louby44 Wed 18-Sep-13 18:38:20

With who? DP gives his ex wife a very decent amount every month for his 2 DD through the CSA. Certainly more than I get off my ex.

Sindarella Wed 18-Sep-13 18:39:29

Why doesnt she speak to him?

MariaLuna Wed 18-Sep-13 18:40:16

Ignore.

Let them learn some manners first.

louby44 Wed 18-Sep-13 18:45:06

Long story. Disastrous holiday where we caught her smoking and general bad behaviour, rude, insolent, lying in bed. BIG fight with her dad where she was swearing at him and spat in his face. He slapped her (yes he knows he shouldn't have but he flipped). He has apologised profusely since - she, however has not for her behaviour!

So she has ignored him since, refuses to come to our house, blocked him on facebook.

Slow progress with DD13 (who has been copying her sister lead).

Now she wants money!

LtEveDallas Wed 18-Sep-13 18:45:40

Hmm we've had a similar issue recently. Difference being that my DSD is an adult and more than capable of earning a wage. Hard isnt it?

I think it would be a big mistake to acquiesce, she's obvs just using him as a bank. What a 'mare. I feel for you.

Petal02 Wed 18-Sep-13 20:03:04

There must be something in the water at the moment: DH has been estranged from his daughter for over 6 years now, so you can imagine our reaction when we got a request for money, via DSS, a few weeks ago ......

louby44 Wed 18-Sep-13 20:10:46

They are priceless aren't they? She is probably thinking he 'owes her' because he took DSD13 out for lunch and bought her an £8 t-shirt. But DSD15 had the chance to go and declined.

Tough luck!

Eliza22 Thu 19-Sep-13 08:38:24

I would not, under any circumstances, give her the money.

I agree with MariaLuna ... She needs to learn some basic manners.

cantreachmytoes Thu 19-Sep-13 10:41:29

I remember your previous thread.

Don't give her the money..although I have a feeling he might out of guilt? Remind him his daughter isn't for sale and if she gets money this time it'll be nearly impossible in the future to say no. Keep offering to take her out with her sister and spend whatever on them together, but he's not an ATM (if you deal with a bank, you at least SPEAK to someone).

curlew Thu 19-Sep-13 10:45:53

He slapped her..................?

absentmindeddooooodles Thu 19-Sep-13 10:50:06

^^ what curlew said........

louby44 Thu 19-Sep-13 17:10:17

Yes he slapped her AFTER she called HIM a fucking bastard, spat in his face, bit him and scratched him. There was his blood all over the floor. She just went for him!

He knows he shouldn't haven't slapped her but he just lost it. Surprisingly I have been amazed at the people who I've told that say 'good on him for slapping her, I would have done the same!' I don't agree but I know I too would have found it very hard to keep my hands off her.

She is very aggressive and her mum has had the police to her to issue a caution.

I hope he hasn't given her the money. He told me he hasn't.

JeanPaget Thu 19-Sep-13 17:14:15

I don't think a grown man slapping his daughter is acceptable under any circumstances. If he'd slapped you I think the majority of MN posters, including myself, would say it was DV and urge you to leave him to protect yourself and your children...

I'm not at all surprised that she's 'blanked' him for 2 months.

NatashaBee Thu 19-Sep-13 17:26:02

She sounds very angry - all teens are stroppy to an extent but it sounds like she actually attacked him (I don't think he should have slapped her but I don't think I would have kept my cool in that situation either). It sounds like her mother has had issues with her too if she called the police. Is she having any sort of counseling? And no, I wouldn't give her the money. It would be better if he agreed a set amount of pocket money to give her which is conditional on her good behavior.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Thu 19-Sep-13 18:02:01

* If he'd slapped you I think the majority of MN posters, including myself, would say it was DV and urge you to leave him to protect yourself and your children*

Even if the OP in that situation had a criminal record for violence and was attacking him at the time?

Even the MN jury isn't that bias!!!!!!!

louby44 Thu 19-Sep-13 18:06:24

Jean - people parent differently and have been brought up differently. You would be surprised at how many people consider smacking/slapping normal. I'm not making excuses for him at all. He has never been violent before with me or any of our other children and I certainly do not fear for my safety or my children's. And I certainly don't consider one slap when SEVERLEY provoked is domestic violence.

It was a culmination of various things that have gone on with DSD for over a year...underage sex, drinking, smoking, taking the morning after pill, mixing with much older kids. She was only 15 in March.

She is very angry. She has had counselling through school after locking herself in the bathroom and refusing to go to school numerous times, but that has ended now.

louby44 Thu 19-Sep-13 18:13:29

Jean - I re-read your post and realised I'd read it wrong. yes if he slapped ME I would consider it DV, but he really isn't like that. Our relationship is very strong. We support each other and after 6 years we want the best for our kids and family in general.

Fairylea Thu 19-Sep-13 18:17:53

I remember the previous threads.

He slapped her. No excuse for that. She could have reported him for assault. (She should have done).

No wonder she is still angry.

If a wife was hit about the face by her husband and he still expected her to go out for lunch with him everyone would be telling him to fuck off. Why different because she is a child and it's her father ? Her bad behaviour does not justify him hitting her.

louby44 Thu 19-Sep-13 18:23:45

So what about her bad behaviour, aggression and violence towards him.

He had scratches all over his legs, there was blood all over the floor. She bit him. She spat in his face. She went for him big style.

Maybe he should have reported her? Would have been interesting we were in Turkey at the time.

She is a child. I've seen her in action and she is very nasty, quite scary really. I honestly don't know if I would have done the same thing if it had been me with one of my DC.

LtEveDallas Thu 19-Sep-13 18:33:47

Actually, in the UK spitting on someone is considered 'common assault'. I know a man that hit someone who had spit in his face, and in court the judge said that he had been 'severely provoked' and 'acted in self defence'

ChinaCupsandSaucers Thu 19-Sep-13 19:06:02

She could have reported him for assault. (She should have done).

Like her mother did which led to her caution?

Out of interest, at what age do you consider a DC should be legally culpable for assaulting a parent (and therefore the parent can justify self-defence?) Should a parent expect to tolerate physical assault by their DCs throughout their lives? To what degree? Common assault? ABH? GBH? Attempted murder? Perhaps you think a child should be justified in killing their parent?

ChinaCupsandSaucers Thu 19-Sep-13 19:06:42

X-posted with Dallas wink

charitymum Thu 19-Sep-13 19:22:27

Poor kid. Clearly troubled. That degree of violence and behaviours at such a young age (you say is been going on for some time and she is only 15 now) points to an unhappy kid with who needs appropriate support. Can she get more counselling?

TBH while being of ignored, spat at, hit etc is unpleasant and must be particularly hurtful coming from daughter she is a child. You are the adults. She needs you to help. If the violence continues of course consider reporting her to police-and ask them for referral for help-but maybe try school, counselling and support as first step.

And as for money if you are going to say no don't make it punitive. Just explain that you think she has enough but be clear you'd love her to come round, go out etc. I assume you would want this?

louby44 Thu 19-Sep-13 19:34:13

charitymum She lives with her mum fulltime and only comes to us EOW.

She does need more counselling but it's not my call. It's up to her parents and her dad feels like he has little say in anything regarding his DD. He gets a lot of "it's what kids are like now" from his ex-wife. Infact his ex-wife sounds like a nightmare. She seems to let them do what they want.

He was called to take DSD13 to the hospital on Monday (as ex-wife was starting a new job, didn't want to call in sick on her first day). DSD13 had punched the wardrobe with her fist as she had got so angry with her mum. Mum had asked her to tidy her room?

Luckily her hand wasn't broken but just badly bruised. Goodness knows what is going on in that house!

charitymum Thu 19-Sep-13 19:42:31

Oh poor kids. Clearly something not. right-slamming a door and swearing may be normal; putting fist through it and spitting and hitting not. Can he not talk to school or access support for them even only having them every OW?

Hard for you both too - but if mum not handling well then even more important for you to be there for them
I guess.

Fairylea Thu 19-Sep-13 19:51:10

I agree with charitymum.

If she is that violent then reporting her to the police might be the shock she needs and it would help to ensure she gets some proper counselling and help / guidance.

No one is saying it is acceptable for your dh to be spat at or attacked. Of course not. But is slapping her across the face the only way he could react?

louby44 Thu 19-Sep-13 19:59:42

He regrets it very much and apologised over and over again. He knows he has caused possibly irrepearable (sp?) damage with that one slap.

It's upset him so much. They were previously very, very close but he has struggled to come to terms with them growing up and not needing him like they once did. He finds it difficult to understand that when they don't want to come it isn't him they are rejecting (this is before the holiday) but that they are becoming young adults with their own lives and interests.

They were both IVF children as he cannot have children naturally.

Shakey1500 Thu 19-Sep-13 20:14:53

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm sure OP's DH wishes he had handled things differently but someone's reaction is exactly that, a reaction. Perhaps him slapping her, whilst being assaulted, was his instinctive way of issuing a shock. In the same way one might slap someone who is hysterical. Wrong to condemn him imo.

Obviously both the daughters are troubled and rebelling. Is there access to some sort of family counselling?

I have been in the position of having rebellious SD and understand it can be incredibly difficult by the very nature of the circumstances.

I can't rightly comment on the money aspect. DSD still asks for money to be put in her account and she's 22 confused I've given up trying to convince him that he's not doing her any favours in the "life lessons stakes" but he caves every time.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Thu 19-Sep-13 21:03:03

If she is that violent then reporting her to the police might be the shock she needs and it would help to ensure she gets some proper counselling and help / guidance.

My understanding is that she has already been cautioned by police for assaulting her Mum; clearly whatever help was available hasnt been effective.

While it is clear that the OP wants to stand by her man, she has her own DCs to think of; exposing them to that level of violence, either at home or on family holidays, is clearly not appropriate.

NoComet Thu 19-Sep-13 21:16:06

One slap for appalling behaviour, for fucks sake what would your Fathers and Mothers have done to you if you had spat at them when you were 15.

My dad would have slapped me, so would any of my school friends Dad's. Even my BF's DDad who spoilt her rotten would have done.

No one in my generation would have contemplated behaving like that.

My 15 DD wouldn't behave like that and she would certainly expect a slap and to be grounded for life if she did.

Get off the OP and her DOs case.

No she doesn't get any money. Especially not if she smokes (and I guess drinks to need that much money a month. Unless she's paying bus fares or an iPhone contract).

Eliza22 Thu 19-Sep-13 22:23:45

It is NOT acceptable to be abusive and spit at people. Her father slapped her. He ought not to have but, if she were in a bar or at work and started hurling abuse, being violent and spitting at people, she may have gotten more than a slap. This girl needs to develop a sense of acceptable behaviour. She sounds to have sorely provoked her dad.

curlew Thu 19-Sep-13 22:59:20

I didn't realise the police caution 14 year olds........

OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 20-Sep-13 03:04:36

Whyever not? The age of criminal responsibilty is 10 in England and Wales, 8 in Scotland though there's an ongoing campaign to raise it to 12. 14 is quite old enough to know that biting, spitting etc isn't actually ok.

wannaBe Fri 20-Sep-13 03:59:58

so, the daughter spit, hit and scratched and was slapped once (and rightly so IMO) and it's the dad who gets the blame? hmm is it any wonder that people say children grow up with no boundaries when people get so precious about things like that.

As for the "if it had been a woman" if a woman hit and spat at her partner and he slapped her it would have been self defence. There's a vast difference between a provoked slap in the heat of the moment and sustained violence from a controlling partner. Some people need to get some perspective.

Op I wouldn't give her any money under any circumstances. Fifteen is not a baby, she is perfectly able to be responsible for her actions. Perhaps she does need some counselling but perhaps she is also just a violent shit who needs a short sharp shock from the law.

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 04:37:20

Agree that her behaviour was not acceptable, spitting is common assault and should be treated as such. HOWEVER, and I'm saying this gently OP...

Perhaps if she has a parent who would slap her, under ANY circumstances, it might just be learnt behaviour? I'm not saying he wasn't provoked, but seriously? He SLAPPED his 15 year old daughter? Come on OP.

Agree with Natasha that she sounds very angry. I think the two of them need to be put in a room and talk it out. She is 15, 15 year olds get angry, they behave badly, they strop. If they have had a rocky time of it this is compounded. She is probably also reeling from the fact that her father slapped her. I think it would ake me a while to forgive that too, particularly in the mind of a 'oh GOD, I haven't even DONE anything!!!' Teenager.

Don't give her any money though.

2blessed Fri 20-Sep-13 05:44:48

If, at 15 (or even now) I had thought it acceptable to spit/hit my mum then my mum would have given me a serious smack and she would have been absolutely right to. Thats a line that you just don't cross unless you think you can without any repercussions.

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 07:22:42

No, it is never right or acceptable to slap a child.

There are far better sanctions than teaching her that you meet violence with violence.

Eliza22 Fri 20-Sep-13 07:25:57

You see, I grew up in a violent home. It wasn't directed toward me but I know the difference between a reactionary slap, done albeit in the heat of the moment when provoked and domestic abuse. Yep. BIG difference. As I say, the dad ought NOT to have but I think for him it was a lat resort STOP sign he was holding up to his daughter.

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 07:29:35

I did not say it was domestic abuse. I said it was unacceptable, and there are better ways of punishing violent behaviour than showing her that it is ok to hit if you are pushed far enough.

I'm sure DH feels awful about it, I'm sure it was heat of the moment and was an extreme reaction to being pushed to is limit.

I still don't think it is hard to see why he hasn't been round in a while. In the teenage psyche, she is the injured party.

CheerfulYank Fri 20-Sep-13 07:31:46

If my 15 year old spat, bit, and scratched me while swearing I'd possibly slap her too.

mumandboys123 Fri 20-Sep-13 07:33:37

yes, report her to the police...and then she'll report him to the police. And I can guess which one of them will end up in a police cell, having to give statements.

It is with the usual disdain that I read this. A step parent complaining about a step child's behaviour and when sensible suggestions are made as to what to do, the step parent simply shrugs and says her partner has little say in his children's lives and how awful it must be in their mother's home. Mum's fault - they live with her most of the time and she doesn't (apparently) want dad involved.

Dad has responsibilities towards his children. He needs to be contacting the school and working out what is going on. He needs a meeting with their form tutors or year heads and he needs to explain how concerned he is about his children's behaviour and ask for an update on how they are viewed in school. It doesn't matter if mum agrees with this or not. He needs to act responsibly to get his children the support they need. And ultimately, if their main home with mum is unsuitable and there is something going on that is so bad, it is making a teenage child slam her fists into wardrobes, he needs to be considering whether this is the best environment for them and deciding whether he is prepared to take up the challenge and care for them full-time himself. Until he does all this, he is simply another moaning non resident parent who is happy to point out the error of everyone else's ways but not put his money where his mouth is, as it were.

And whilst I know how hard it can be to treat children equally, particularly if they have been badly behaved, it would have been reasonable to send the elder child something with the younger one if he was buying her t-shirts. Imagine how that feels - your dad prefers the younger one because she will see him when you're too angry to see him? your dad doesn't care about you in quite the same way? Expecting her to do something in return for monetary reward isn't acceptable. Give her anyway, if you are giving the other one. Or give to neither. It's the only way you can go when one child is almost estranged and getting more estranged by the minute.

saintmerryweather Fri 20-Sep-13 07:39:57

go on then fairy, how would have stopped an angry 15 year old girl from attacking you without resorting to some sort of physical behaviour?

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 07:41:05

No, it is never right or acceptable to slap a child.

Just so I'm clear, what you are saying is that if I am the OPs DP, and I am violently attacked by someone I know to be violent, while abroad and in the company of my DP and younger DCs, I should not use any violence whatsoever to defend myself or respond to the attack if I know that my attacker is a child?
At what age is it acceptable?

And what alternatives do you suggest? Call the police, abroad? In a country which may treat the child more harshly than here in the UK? Allow myself to be injured? Risk my DP and the younger DCs being attacked?

I agree that calculated, measured violence is not a solution to the issues being experienced - but in the circumstances the OP describes, what 'better sanction' you would suggest than a short, sharp slap?

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 07:53:44

if their main home with mum is unsuitable and there is something going on that is so bad, it is making a teenage child slam her fists into wardrobes, he needs to be considering whether this is the best environment for them and deciding whether he is prepared to take up the challenge and care for them full-time himself

What a patronising, misinformed and frankly offensive comment.

If you judge every father against your unrealistic expectations of the system, then it's no wonder you are frequently at odds with the majority of Stepmums here on MN.

Six months ago, my DSS told DP he was scared to go home incase Mum hit him like she hits DSD. DP did what you advocate - involved the authorities, followed their advice and I accepted very intrusive emergency visits to our home.
Despite DSD confirming DSS allegations, despite their Mum admitting that she was regularly physically abusive to DSD, despite DP being assured that he did everything right, within a matter of hours, DSS was back with his Mum and DP was being assured by professionals that everything was fine and that sometimes family arguments get out of hand.

So before you preach about how the OPs DP has failed, perhaps you should test the system for yourself and see how far you get? angry

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 07:55:57

Imagine how that feels - your dad prefers the younger one because she will see him when you're too angry to see him? your dad doesn't care about you in quite the same way?

Is love and care expressed through monetary reward in your home? Why on earth would a teen consider she is less cared for because she has received fewer material things?

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 08:02:01

Come on china, I did not say he had failed. I accept that things had got out of hand, but you can't seriously be advocating slapping as an acceptable form of discipline?!?!

saintmerry walked away until she had calmed down? Shut the door on her and punished her rationally once calm?

Look, I'm not saying I can't understand how it happened. I'm saying it wasn't right, and I can understand why,in her mind, she is the injured party.

dingit Fri 20-Sep-13 08:04:58

I'm sorry but if someone attacked you, your snap reaction would be self defence and hit back, whoever it was. A slap across the face can hardly be called DV. He was sorry afterwards. I feel sorry for both of them actually, something has gone very wrong, my dd15 has a great relationship with her dad, better than with me in fact.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 08:08:35

fairy I very much doubt the slap was a punishment/sanction - it was a natural response to being attacked; that apparently, the OPs DP should have suppressed because his child is a victim hmm

Even police officers use reasonable force when faced with a violent attacker - who they subsequently arrest after which the sanctions are applied.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 08:09:17

And why the hell is everything I type being posted TWICE!!!!!

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 08:12:51

China, yes he should have suppressed it, because yes his chid IS the victim.

And police officers isn't use reasonable force, but I think if they SLAPPED someone, there would be outrage.

Again, never said it was DV.

I wouldn't worry about posting twice, helps get your point across. wink

Inkspellme Fri 20-Sep-13 08:14:33

I've a 15 year old dd. If she had behaved that way with me or her dad she would have been slapped. Not as a planned disipline but as a reaction from such agression from her. It doesn't make it DV or a LTB situation.

I'd say no to the money but say how much she would be welcome on a lunch -perhaps just her and her dad? TBH, I think she needs a lot more professional counselling. Maybe family therapy for all involved.

QueOnda Fri 20-Sep-13 08:15:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

randomAXEofkindness Fri 20-Sep-13 08:16:32

Wow.

If dh slapped our dd under ANY circumstances, I would leave him. Your dsd's behavior certainly isn't normal, her parents have obviously done a fantastic job of fucking her up haven't they? Your dh can't very well turn round and whinge about it now, IT'S HIS FAULT! He should be working out what he's going to do to make HER life better - then maybe she won't make his life a misery.

Dumpylump Fri 20-Sep-13 08:27:45

random seriously? Seriously? How utterly offensive. And wrong.
With regard to pp who stated that basically dad should man up and have poor daughter come live with him...how does that work when poor daughter is 15 years old and, judging by what's going on at the moment, would flatly refuse to do so?
We have similar situation going on at the moment (although not quite as extreme, and dp didn't slap dsd as their altercation was over the phone), and I would be furious if dp handed over money while dsd is being so spectacularly out of order. As long as decent amount of maintenance is being paid to mum, and dsd is being told "we want to see you, we love you, but this behaviour has to stop", then no way would I be giving her cash - presumably through dsd2 since she won't see dp anyway.

Inkspellme Fri 20-Sep-13 08:35:03

impty - I think you have a fantastic perspective on it. Good to see it was repaired eventually.

impty Fri 20-Sep-13 08:40:02

I have been 15 with divorced parents, who had partners who were angry that I didn't fit in with the new set up.

I was fucking furious! My whole life had changed in a few short years. I had gone from being a loved child who felt secure to someone who felt unloved (not true-but my perception at the time), and was expected to fit in with the adults plans constantly, they had very little perception of my feelings other than I was 'difficult'.

I was powerless and full of rage.

It took another 15 years for my relationship with my father to get back on track.

Whilst a teen I drank, smoked, demanded money, well did all kinds of things to get some attention. I should have worn a t shirt with LOOK AT ME! On it.

So yes, now I'm an adult I can see that I was a royal pita. But, I also see I was upset and angry and what I needed most was time alone with my parents (separately), understanding, reassurance and kindness. Of course I made this very difficult.

I don't think a slap was the right reaction. I've seen my own dd1 whose 15 get beside herself with rage. I stop the arguement and hug her. She has a cry and often we then calmly chat over the incident before. I do this because I remember the fury I often felt at that age.

I think a request for money is to remind you both that she is still there. Her father should say it can be discussed when he next sees her.

I don't think she's behaving well, but I do think the adults need to behave better.

curlew Fri 20-Sep-13 08:41:28

Her behaviour is not "normal". This is not, whatever anybody says, how teenagers behave. There is something going on that needs fixing, and her father and mother need to talk about it and work together to fix it. I know they are divorced, but they are still parents.

And no, it is not OK, or normal or understandable to slap your own child. Yes, he was hideously provoked. Yes, she behaved appallingly. But there is no way he should have hit her. I cannot believe people are condoning domestic violence in this way. Would it have been OK he had hit his adult partner because she was provoking him?

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:07:14

Curlew, I could hug you. I was starting to think I had gone mad.

hermioneweasley Fri 20-Sep-13 09:15:33

What impty said

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 09:22:41

Would it have been OK he had hit his adult partner because she was provoking him?

Provoked? You mean by assaulting him? Causing (as a minimum) common assault injuries?

This thread has deteriorated into an ethical debate about whether the age of criminal responsibility is to low.

This child committed a criminal act. She is a repeat offender.

The excuses and justifications in this thread are extreme even for the MN anti-stepmum brigade!

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:35:14

China - I am not in the 'anti- step-mum' brigade - far from it.

We are saying that slapping a child is wrong. Where in that have you read any step mum bashing?

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 09:36:31

Also - you keep highlighting the word child like it confirms your point - I think you'll find it backs up mine - she is a child - he is an ADULT, he should have been able to control himself.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Fairylea Fri 20-Sep-13 09:46:24

Fairy (from another fairy!) I completely agree with you.

I don't think the daughter will ever forgive her dad. I don't think I could if it was me. I think maybe he's expecting too much to try to repair any relationship they have.

What were the circumstances of the split between the dad and the dds mum? How long ago was it?

I'm not anti step mum either. I am remarried, my dh is a wonderful step dad to my dd aged 10 and my ex is also remarried with two more children, his wife is lovely and dd loves her.

BooCanary Fri 20-Sep-13 09:48:31

I think the slap was understandable, although of course not ideal.
However, what is not understandable is your DP washing his hands of the situation for whatever reason.

He needs to help his DD however awkward, inconvenient or traumatic this may be. Saying things like: her mother let's her do what she wants, so what can I do about it, is not the answer.

Your dp needs to take direct action to help his DD and he needs to do this NOW!

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 09:56:40

Your dp needs to take direct action to help his DD and he needs to do this NOW!

What do you suggest the OPs DP actually does?

curlew Fri 20-Sep-13 10:01:04

I'm not anti step mum. I see no anti step mum sentiments on this thread at all.

I am anti violence. I am anti an adult hitting a child. I am anti blaming a child for being screwed up by complex and unhappy family circumstances.

And I a pro parents- whatever their circumstances- stepping up to the plate and bloody well parenting.

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 10:05:18

China, you don't genuinely think DP acted in a 'restrained and limited manner', do you?

Snapped ad felt awful, maybe. But restrained and limited? Please.

And actually, it may well scar her for life. By the sound of she already is.

BooCanary Fri 20-Sep-13 10:06:57

Well for a little start, not make a huge issue about £25. Think about a kind and helpful solution to the request - give her £10 to get a T-shirt like her sisters, and offer to take her out just him and her ( and then don't take it personally when she says no). Think of ways to build bridges. Realise she is TRYING to get a reaction, and as an adult, take the higher ground.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 10:09:08

And I a pro parents- whatever their circumstances- stepping up to the plate and bloody well parenting

Do you include step-parents in that? Because what strikes me is that the OP is being flamed for what people perceive as her DPs failure to parent.

Anywhere else on MN, the OP would be sympathised with, asked if she was OK, empathised with how scary it must be to have such violence in her home and not be able to influence it.

Here, the OP is berated because her DSD is being failed by her parents. Go figure!

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Fri 20-Sep-13 10:10:16

Ok so people are justifying a man slapping a 15 year old. Great. So now we respond to violence with violence? Well how could this possible go wrong hmm

He is an adult, she is a child. He should not be slapping her.

Fairy1303 Fri 20-Sep-13 10:12:06

Nobody is flaming the OP, are we reading the same thread?

BooCanary Fri 20-Sep-13 10:13:21

By the sound of it these children are violent, disfunctional young people who need help. Throwing our hands up in the air saying ' what is this poor NRP to do?' Is of no use whatsoever.

Doing nothing is not an option.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 10:17:00

Should the age of criminal responsibility be higher when the victim is the perpetrators parent?
Or should children of any age be permitted to assault their parents with impunity?

Should the OP have tolerated the same violence from her DSD?

LtEveDallas Fri 20-Sep-13 10:19:49

I don't think the daughter will ever forgive her dad. I don't think I could if it was me

Oh please, how ridiculous. One slap as an angry 15 year old is NOT going to destroy their relationship for the rest of their lives. If it did, then I'd suggest this kids has got a damn sight more issues than they all realise.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 10:19:58

Boo have you read my earlier post about my DSC violent mother?
Have you successfully intervened when your DCs are being neglected, and emotionally abused at the hands of their NRP?

How did you do it?

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 10:20:41

*Hands of their RP, that should be

BooCanary Fri 20-Sep-13 10:31:57

So what do YOU suggest China? Doing nothing, thereby ensuring that they downward spiral into worse, possibly criminal behaviour?

I haven't been in this exact situation, but actually you also don't know the whole picture.

cls77 Fri 20-Sep-13 10:54:18

I agree with those who say the slap was needed. She sounded like she was in full rage mode and needed to be stopped very quickly before she hurt herself or others further. This is not domestic violence or a LTB situation, this is a father not knowing what to do to help his daughter and reacting to the physical abuse from her. It is not fair to put this incident with continuous/repeated abuse. Why do people now believe that absolutely no slapping/hitting is acceptable when dealing with children. I for one had many a smack as a child/teen and it certainly helped me to get a grip and realise I had overstepped the mark. I on the other hand, do not agree and get very upset with people smacking their children/teens all the time, especially pulling them along the floor in supermarkets and talking to them like sh!t. There is a clear difference between abuse, and a 2 or 3 in a childhood smack/slap to give them a sense of reality.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 11:35:53

Boo I suggest that NRPs in this situation parent to the best if their ability, continue to put boundaries in place and is not blackmailed or manipulated by their DC even if that means they don't have direct contact.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 11:39:08

The utopia suggested - that a NRP calls in the cavalry and rescues their troubled teen from an abiding, neglectful or just unsuitable homelife with their RP - doesn't exist.

curlew Fri 20-Sep-13 13:35:47

Where on earth is the OP getting flamed?

impty Fri 20-Sep-13 15:26:39

I don't want to flame the OP. It's not a good situation for ANYONE.

A 15 child who is violent and aggressive is not a great person to have around. She does however, have a right to a relationship with her father, and he with her, regardless of past mistakes. They have both made those.

A troubled teenager, needs help not vilification. I don't think the demand for money is anything more than a desire for attention, or a demand to be valued.

The OP pointed out that her dp gives more child support than she receives from her ex. That's irrelevant, and its important to not blur those lines.

I suspect the OP needs to detatch from the situation, support her dp in building bridges with his daughter and disengage from the situation. This is unbelievably hard. She has my sympathies.

What isn't ok is to try and make the father choose his new relationship over the one with his child- I'm not saying that is happening here but it happened many times with my father.

Finally, I do have a great relationship with my step mother, a lovely lady. I would never 'bash' step mothers. I have re read the thread and can't really see where anyone else has either.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 15:55:11

It looks like the gremlins got my reply I posted a while ago - but the OP has (IMO) been unfairly treated.
This thread has been (quote) read with distain and she has also been told that it's not good enough for her to say "she's not my child, there's nothing I can do".

The OP is rightfully pissed off that a violent teen is demanding money from a family that the very same teen has rejected. Telling the OP what her DP should or should not be doing is hardly supportive.
I was angrier than I can ever remember when, after my DSD rejected her family here, she started making demands of my DP and myself. How very dare she? If we were unworthy to speak to or even look at, then our time and money was not available to her either.

impty Fri 20-Sep-13 16:09:01

Well I rejected my father because in my (childish) eyes he'd rejected me when he walked out the door.

I rejected the women who didn't feel I could have a say in his life because I WAS THERE FIRST! Again not mature, but neither were the women competing with me.

15 is still a child. When your family falls apart and adults don't behave well neither will the children.

China your dsd rejected your family. Did she get to grieve for the one she lost? Was she allowed to have say in how her new family looked, the time scale, was she given time to spend with her father without you there? You sound so bitter and angry, I bet she is too. Perhaps you need to detatch and be the adult.

LtEveDallas Fri 20-Sep-13 16:17:40

Bully for you Impty. My DSD has rejected her father because he refused to put his hand in his pocket again. She hasn't rejected me, simply because she knows its me that pays her 'maintenance' and if she does, I will just stop paying.

Not every kid is great. Not every kid is nice. Not every kid needs to be treated like they are above the law. Some kids need to realise that they need to 'give' to 'get'. OPs DSD isn't giving.

We made headway with DSD by being firm, consistent and expecting (at the very least) a considerate and respectful relationship. It's kicked off again now, but already the 'no' has had the desired effect. We shall see.

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 16:31:24

China your dsd rejected your family. Did she get to grieve for the one she lost? Was she allowed to have say in how her new family looked, the time scale, was she given time to spend with her father without you there? You sound so bitter and angry, I bet she is too. Perhaps you need to detatch and be the adult.

Course I was angry; my DSD left my DD devastated, my DP bereft and expected everything to go her way! I cut her off completely, refused to respond to her demanding, mocking or petulant texts, blocked her from contacting my DD and left DP to deal with it as he chose. He was brilliant. He continued to set boundaries, refused to be blackmailed, remained in touch with her life (all be it not through her) and withstood the onslaught of criticism from family who considered him unreasonable for not giving in to her demands.

Is she angry? No, not a bit of it! She has grown up, matured, reunited with her Dad and she and I have a closer relationship now than I could ever have imagined smile we have talked at length about how the two years estrangement looked from both sides - we recognise and acknowledge each others positions and accept those.
Having experienced this myself, and seen how positive DD is now about her Dads choice not to pander to her then, I will never, ever advise a rejected parent to pander to the demands of a blackmailing teen and neither would DSD smile

Brotherhoodofsteel Fri 20-Sep-13 16:51:58

Ok gonna get flamed but sometimes a short sharp shock is the only thing that will get through to someone who has completely lost it and is acting like a wild animal.
I doubt many people could have handled it better to be honest. He obviously couldn't walk away or restrain her while she was going at him and the slap probably just jolted her out of the red mist.
My dad once slapped me when when he lost his temper, it was the only time he ever laid a finger on me and I deserved it. He never apologised and I never expected him to and I wasn't doing anything half as bad as the op's dsd was doing. We are close and never fell out over it, I love my dad to bits.
Dsd is just using it as an excuse to blank your partner and have a legit reason for treating him like crap.
She sounds like a total nightmare and I hope she grows out of it.

curlew Fri 20-Sep-13 18:04:43

"I will never, ever advise a rejected parent to pander to the demands of a blackmailing teen and neither would DSD "

Neither would I. And that has exactly what to do with an adult hitting a child?

LtEveDallas Fri 20-Sep-13 18:07:12

Nothing curlew. But then that isn't what the thread was about. The thread was about the OPs DSD rejecting her father when it suited her and then asking for money

curlew Fri 20-Sep-13 18:11:35

Really? I thought it was at least in part about him
hitting her.....

ChinaCupsandSaucers Fri 20-Sep-13 18:24:39

curlew The OP is ^ there at the top of the page if you're having trouble wink

curlew Fri 20-Sep-13 18:28:31

So we're not allowed to refer to the backstory or put her behaviour in any sort of context?

elliebellys Fri 20-Sep-13 18:32:29

China,no need to be so rude is there..the backstory is part of it.

louby44 Fri 20-Sep-13 19:04:45

I don't feel flamed. It's interesting to hear different views.

It's very difficult to be involved with teens when the don't want you in their lives!

Onebuddhaisnotenough Sat 21-Sep-13 10:00:46

This is the only part of MN on which a grown man hitting a child is validated and congratulated. How about you post on chat or relationships OP. Because the projecting and bitterness dressed up as 'support' and 'advice' here will do nothing to help this child deal with the situation she finds herself in. No her behavior is not acceptable. But his has crossed a line so badly that unless he acknowledges the damage that he has done, his relationship with his child may be over for good.

Onebuddhaisnotenough Sat 21-Sep-13 10:04:17

And seeing that most of you seem to believe that the money is more important than the violence, OP why is maintenance having to be paid via the CSA ?

louby44 Sat 21-Sep-13 10:23:37

Money paid by CSA as that is what is ex wife wanted.

Yesterday DSD15 had a fight with her mum, she hit her mum and was very aggressive towards her and called her 'a fucking cunt' - she then told her mum she hated her and didn't want to live with her. Both daughters then left to stay with friends. She only asked them to tidy their rooms.

DP spoke extensively with his ex-wife last night as the girls are totally out of control. Ex w says she cannot live with them anymore and is seriously considering involving the police and social services. They talked about them coming to live with us but that won't happen. DSD 15 is in GCSE year and they live 40 miles away so a change of school isn't a good idea.

Plus they don't want to live here, relationships with their dad are still not good and they have suddenly decided they don't like me either. Apparantly 'we have never got on' (news to me) and 'I've always looked down on them' (news to me again) only ever been kind and loving towards both girls in the 6 years I've known them.

DP has suggested contacting CAMH's to ex wife - who didn't know what that was! He says he will go to family counselling if needed.

DSD15 is totally out of control. It is horrible!

LtEveDallas Sat 21-Sep-13 10:28:31

The OPs husband HAS acknowledged the damage he has done. He has apologised profusely, over and over again. OPs DSD has decided to use his actions as a stick to beat him with (pun unavoidable), despite his distress, his apologies and her own bad behaviour.

OPs DSD has also previously received a police caution after attacking her mother. Her actions have crossed a line too.

The situation the DSD finds herself in is of her own making.

CSA is generally the easiest and most secure way of paying a specified amount of maintenance. It was set up for that reason. Why would a NRP not use it?

What axe do you have to grind here onebuddah?

LtEveDallas Sat 21-Sep-13 10:32:24

Sorry OP, cross posted. Sounds like CAMHS is the way to go, but don't expect miracles. Your best hope is that DSD 2 is just copying DSD 1, and that a firm hand and counselling now will help to nip it in the bud.

Otherwise, I'm sorry, but all I can suggest is 'time'. My DSD was pretty horrible between 14-16, but she did come through (in all areas except cash). And thinking about it, I was a pretty rotten 14 year old, so maybe time is what you need.

louby44 Sat 21-Sep-13 10:52:24

Dallas thank you thanks you seem to have a measure of our situation.

DP text his DD15 last night to tell her a friend of his had been killed on his way to work yesterday (DD knows the deceased son). He wanted to make her see that life is short and that family is important etc.

The texting quickly became an argument; she has turned into a real nasty piece of work. Goading her dad, telling him his attempts to win her back with cards, flowers and apologies have all failed. She was basically laughing at him. She has considered coming to stay but not if I'm here!! He told her that we both love her and miss her and she is welcome here anytime.

It meant nothing! She doesn't care. She told her dad to stop texting her. She is digging herself a bigger and bigger hole. She put on Facebook that she has no parents.

This girl needs help!

randomAXEofkindness Sat 21-Sep-13 12:33:45

"Some kids need to realise that they need to 'give' to 'get'.

Cold. Even Peter Singer, the philosopher who argues for a 'tit-for-tat' based society, makes an exception of the family circle.

LtEveDallas Sat 21-Sep-13 12:36:45

Oh Hell Louby, that's harsh. She certainly needs help. Can DH and his Ex be civil? Could they work together to solve this one? I really think that a joint effort will be needed here - because it's not just her dad she is railing at is it?

I'm afraid I know very little about CAHMS etc. My DSD was a cow, but never this bad and never violent, and I'm lucky with DD, she's pretty even tempered. Doesn't the SS have the ability to help in situations like this? There has to be someone on here who would know more - how about posting in Teenagers?

LtEveDallas Sat 21-Sep-13 12:50:39

RandomAxe (apt nickname). If you don't give other people love, attention, respect, kindness, hope, attention, pity, warmth, engagement, trust and on and on - you can't expect to get it back.

OPs DSD is throwing back all her fathers attempts. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for him to give. And he will give up. She needs to understand that, needs to realise that she will end up with no-one and nothing is she continues to be horrible to people, continues to push people away. Even the best of men (and women) won't give all the time for ever.

randomAXEofkindness Sat 21-Sep-13 16:03:25

But I think that's a parents choice lteve not an inevitable fact of life, as it seems to have been portrayed here.

If my dd acted in the way this dsd has I would be absolutely beside myself, but I would never give up on her. On the contrary, this girl needs help more than most. My love, respect and support for my children is unconditional: it isn't dependent on her behaviour towards me. And I'm certainly nowhere close to 'the best of men.."

louby44 Sat 21-Sep-13 16:14:30

Yes I'm pushing him to join with his ex to make a united front. They are fairly civil now with each other.

But its whether or not the DD will go to some sort of counselling. He's told his ex to cut off the money she gives to them. She's giving them money every month and they abuse her by swearing and being aggressive. She needs to hit them where it hurts.

LtEveDallas Sat 21-Sep-13 16:14:58

You may never give up, but plenty would and tbh, I don't think you can say that without any insight into a violent relationship. You don't know how much you can take.

If I had a child that was violent towards me, how much should I take? If I was a battered wife then everyone would be shouting 'leave the bastard'. If I went back for more and more beatings, people would say I was a lost cause. At what point do you apply that same logic to a violent parent child relationship? Some kids are bigger and stronger than their parents at a very early age - my DNephew for example towered over his mother from the age of 13 onwards - if he had violent tendancies he could have killed her I expect.

I love my DD unconditionally. She is the absolute light of my life, but she's 8. If she starts hitting me when she is 10/12/15 I can't say now how I would feel about her then.

I adored DSD, but when she went through the horrible teenage years, as many do, I had to step away from her. Her actions back then changed the relationship we have now. I love her, but not as I did. Maybe OP feels the same and maybe OPs DH will do if his daughter doesn't stop and think about what she is doing.

louby44 Sat 21-Sep-13 17:18:21

He won't give up on them, it took him years to conceive them. He loves them both very much but DSD15 is pushing both her parents to the limit. There is only so much hurt and abuse you can take.

She is angry (I think) about her parents split, the fact that DP moved away to live with me and also her mum's relationship with her partner broke down last October so stability there went. She also began to mix with a new group of friends. Plus the usual teen hormones. All adds up to one unhappy girl.

What worries me is that DSD13 is uniting with her sister and copying her behaviour.

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