Finally cracked with Disney dad and his goody goody son

(185 Posts)
quest12 Tue 19-Feb-13 22:42:09

My husband and I have a dd aged 7 we also have his son my stepson over regularly, now since she was toddling around he has tormented her made her cry but been sly about it as in he does it when we're not in the room then denies it, so I turned detective an started leaving the room but listening in so I cud make sure what my dd was telling me was right, and it was - however if I tell him off he takes his sons side and results in a 3 way argument with dss eventually saying if I'm taking dds side then he's not coming down anymore so my hubby begs me to relent and I do to keep the peace.

However yesterday we were at the local swimming pool me and hubby taking turns to go in steam room, as I'm coming out and hubs is going in I seen him elbow her in the head on purpose - she screamed crying and he stood there laughing in her face, then he looked up seen me and said "we were playing catch and cause she couldn't catch the ball she's crying" now I've been calm for 6 years but I exploded calling him a liar and evil for laughing in her face, hubby seen this an came out took dss to one side then came back saying "we're going now you've just told him off for nothing and he's upset now" in the car on way to drop dss off I told him what I'd seen and dd told her dad what happened but he lied and hubby believes him.

I've told him I'm putting up with it no longer and he says I can't tell dss off as he will stop visiting, but to me the happiness and stability of my dd is most important. I think it's an extreme case of Disney dad and I've had enuf he now thinks he can do what he likes as his dad will always take his side. What can I do ban him from coming? Or leave my hubby?

Kenpal Tue 19-Feb-13 23:15:43

I have the same problem with my stepkids thinking they can rule the place when they are around and threaten dad with no contact if they don't get there own way, my dh is terrified they will stop coming and will do anything to please them I'm at the end of my tether too, hope some of the experienced step mums on here can give us some advice

notsoevilstepmum Wed 20-Feb-13 05:47:41

i know it seems extreme but why dont you order one of them video cameras you can hide like people do for nanny's to make sure they dont abuse your kids. put it in the living room and get some evidence your husband can hardly deny this is going on when confronted with it on video tape. your daughters saftey is the most important thing you shouldnt have to live like this just to appease his son who it sounds is very selfish and entitled anyway.

Xalla Wed 20-Feb-13 06:18:32

Is there a routine in place like eow? Or does your SS just come when he feels like it?

If there's a routine I'd simply say to your DH that you're not willing for your DD to be around your DSS until your DH cracks down on his behaviour. Hence for half of DSS's visits you'll vacate the family home (take your DD to see family / friends whatever) and for the other half of DSS's visits, you expect your DH and DSS to vacate the family home. Insist on it until your DH starts disciplining his child.

Personally I'd also tell your DSS YOURSELF that until he admits to and apologizes for his behaviour, you don't want to see him. I know some would advise against that but it sounds like you've been in his life for quite a while and he's a young adult so imo, he should be able to hear it. He's old enough to know what he's doing is wrong and understand that with actions come consequences.

Not so evil's idea of filming your DSS in action is a good one too. You shouldn't need to do it but you may have to.

Your DH should not be undermining you in favour of his son, it's totally unacceptable; you're the adults and you should present a united front for both kids when it comes to what you consider acceptable behaviour in the family home.

Do you think your DSS would really refuse to come if your DH cracked down? Could he call his bluff?

Petal02 Wed 20-Feb-13 14:39:07

I think Xalla makes an excellent suggestion: if your DH won't address the situation, you need to remove yourSelf and your daughter during access visits. However I really can't see your DH being prepared to spend 50% of each visit away from home (even though I think he should), he'd probably just bring DSS over to your house regardless. But sadly, it seems that absenting yourself/DD is the only option - and it's something you would have control over.

purpleroses Wed 20-Feb-13 16:18:32

Kids do poke and shove each other when they think no one's looking. That's really normal for siblings, and I do think you were out of order to shout at your DSS for it and call him evil. He sounds just like a lot of older brothers. My DSS has been known to do just the same with my DD (who's only a little younger, so a bit more able to look after herself) and your instinct as a mother is so much to want to protect your own child. But I do think it's normal. My DS and DD will have a go at each other too, as will younger DSS and DSD. And I've known all of them at times to hurt each other, then laugh about it, and lie when caught. It's not nice, and you do need to deal with it, but not by pathologising the child who's at fault.

But sounds like you and DH have ended up each siding with one child - and you no longer trust him to keep your DD safe. That's a bad situation to be in, and would agree with the posters above that you need to do something to put a stop to things as they are. A less drastic solution than leaving the house would be to not leave the two of them together in a room unless an adult is there. Tell them they must play separately in their bedrooms, unless they're joining you to do something. Could you encourage your DD to go to your DH directly when she's saying she's been hurt, so he can sort it out, and you're not caught in the middle, each defending one child?

quest12 Tue 26-Feb-13 19:37:38

Ha ha don't think I cud do the hidden camera thing mite be a bit big brotherish! My main problem is my hubby taking diss side whether he's right or not just to keep him happy, it's severe Disney dad behaviour, my dss knows he can do anything as dad will always back him up. Thanks for the replies xxxx

IrisGirl Thu 28-Feb-13 20:35:27

it is hard, i was in a similar situation myself with my two DSD's....it got to the stage where i was ready to leave my OH. it all came to a head one day and i told him exactly where i stood on things and that i was not having our DD (at the time was 18mnths) living in that kind of house.
i told him straight as the girls father, he can't always be the nice guy and you are showing your girls a lot more by being "tough" with them when needs be. if he let this behaviour continue then i didn't want to be around to see what kind of adults they became as at the time they thought they could say or do anything they wanted and dad would stick up for them!!! i told him a few harsh horrible things and although it very nearly split us up, it had the desired effect and he could see what i was saying and that i wasn't being mean.

few months on and although things are not perfect, they are 99% better and we are bonding as a family really well together

stick to your guns, you are your daughter's advocate, she needs you to stick up for her as her father isn't. stay strong and know that things will work themselves out x

quest12 Thu 07-Mar-13 22:08:12

sooooo we have nearly come to the weekend when dss should come down friday to sunday, his mum has rang and said that unless i apologize when he arrives he doesnt want to come down! so my dh asked me if i would and i told him no - i said that id put up with his behaviour and turned a blind eye to it because he didnt come down much, but for the sake of our dd she deserved to have someone stand up for her even if he wont!! hes gone into a sulk saying that finally ive got what i wanted - for dss to not visit and i should be proud of myself. ive tried to tell him this is not the case i just dont want our dd to feel picked on but everytime i try to explain he shouts blah blah blah over me and wont listen, then when i stop telling him he starts clapping saying youve got what you wanted!! am i wrong to think i shouldnt be made out to be the guilty party here?

JoyceDivision Thu 07-Mar-13 22:11:41

I'd tell him to fuck off with that sort of behaviour shock

quest12 Thu 07-Mar-13 22:17:57

thankyou joycedivision just what i was thinking but our daughter was awake earlier and i didnt want her to hear a slanging match now shes gone to bed hes asleep so i cant sort it!! once id put dd to bed i came down and checked my phone and there was a msg from him even tho he was only in bedroom saying that if i cudnt apologize and make his son come down he couldnt see a future for us! well hes asleep so i cant talk to him but my opinion is if thats the case and your willing to let our dd be treated like that then fuck off!!! am i right in thinking that if i apologize for my dh sake then my dss will think he can do what he wants and treat dd how he wants cause dad wont tell him off and im not allowed to!!!

Petal02 Thu 07-Mar-13 22:33:46

God, that's just ridiculous. I Agree with the poster who suggests you tell him to f**k off. If you back down on this one, then it's a very slippery slope. For what it's worth, there is no way in the world that I would have the ex and a step child insisting I apologised. And shame in your DH for putting you in this position. Your DSS is just playing power games, and your DH is too Disney to stand up to him. I'd be willing to bet a fair amount that if you stick to your guns it will all blow over. And if if doesn't - why should you put your little girl in a position where she's picked in by an older boy, with the blessing of her father???? Honestly, your DH needs to grow a pair - fast.

purpleroses Thu 07-Mar-13 22:43:12

He should tell his ex that you and he will sort it out. Absolutely not on for her to insist that an adult apologies to her son for something she didn't see and has nothing to do with. And your DP should not be letting her threaten to prevent contact for something that is not her business.

quest12 Thu 07-Mar-13 23:09:31

well as hes asleep and hasnt got the balls to stand up to his ex (long story but her eldest 2 daughters dont see there dad and he was witness to her poisoning their minds about him) ive rang her half an hour ago as i know dss will be in bed - i asked her what she thinks i should apologize for and she stated because he threw the ball and it hit (my dd) in the face then you shouted at him when it was only an accident, so very calmly i explained that, that was what dss told us but i had been at the side of the pool and saw what happened and knew he was lying, i also told her that i have been very tolerant of his behaviour for years as we didnt see him much but would not have my dd treated this way at the baths or in her own home. she replied that i was evil, her son is a gentle kind boy who would never do anything to hurt anyone and that our dd was exagerrating to get attention!!!! unfortunately it ended in a bit of a slanging match which i didnt want and will have to tell dh about in the morning. im sorry but my dd welfare is my upmost concern i cannot let her be bullied in her own house or when out with her mum and dad when she should feel safe. if my dh wont protect her then i will! xxxxxxxxxx thanks for all the replies and for taking the time to help xxxxxxx

Petal02 Fri 08-Mar-13 08:41:37

Quest - how are things this morning, are you OK?

flurp Fri 08-Mar-13 12:42:51

shockshockshock
If anyone is evil it is this horrible spoilt little boy.
You are damn right not to apologise - think how unbearable he will be if you do. That is condoning everything he does and letting your poor DD down big time. Stick to your guns.
Your husband sounds as immature and bratty as his own son.

Branleuse Fri 08-Mar-13 12:51:02

its your partners fault, not the boy. Id tell him to fuck off

mumandboys123 Fri 08-Mar-13 19:44:25

how would you feel if someone called your child 'evil'?

flurp Sat 09-Mar-13 22:51:34

Nobody would call my children evil because I wouldn't allow them to get away with such behaviour! That is why they need discipline and boundaries - to stop this sort of thing!!
And the OP doesn't deserve to be called evil either!

Theydeserve Sat 09-Mar-13 23:09:09

He is being a normal sibling - you may not like it but have seen much worse.

I did much worse to my brother.

If my DCS step called them evil, I would probably call her evil and one helluva lot more.

You and your DP need to sit down and work out how you parent both your DCs and stick to it.

eskimofriends Sun 10-Mar-13 08:56:48

I hope you don't mind if I offer a view that is a little critical of the OP. It is not meant to be personal and is offered in good faith.
I am of the view that all behaviour is communication. We are all saying something in the way we behave. Your DSS is behaving the way he is because of how he feels about the situation he's in.
Try to see things from his point of view. Through no fault of his own, his parents are apart. He spends most of his time away from his dad - hard for any boy - but made even worse for him because he knows that your DD sees Dad all the time. Jealousy and anger are reasonable responses to that.
To make matters worse, from his perspective, when he does see his Dad he finds a far more judgmental and critical maternal figure than he is used to, who seems to always take his sister's side in any dispute. That must be confusing and irritating for him.
Of course your DD is your primary concern and deserves to be protected from bullying behaviour. But the situation can only improve if you are able to step back a little to understand why your DSS is behaving the way he is.
He doesn't sound evil - and forgive me, but that is a terrible thing to call a child, however provoked you feel. He sounds bewildered, angry and jealous. I think I would too in that situation.
I know that DSC can be manipulative and exasperating at time. But if you can understand why he feels the need to act in this way, you - as the adult - can begin to make changes in your house that don't involve threats to end your marriage or halting contact between father and son.

flurp Sun 10-Mar-13 09:01:31

Hold your horses...
The OP never called the boy evil.
The boys mum called the OP evil for refusing to apologise.
I said if anyone is evil it's the OPs DSS and I apologise for that - he obviously isn't evil but his behaviour is bullying a smaller child and shouldn't be allowed to continue!

eskimofriends Sun 10-Mar-13 09:07:29

The OP said she exploded and called her DSS a liar and evil.

OP did call the boy evil: " I exploded calling him a liar and evil for laughing in her face"

Uppermid Sun 10-Mar-13 09:13:12

Your dh obviously won't listen to you, how about writing him a letter.

You could tell him you're pleased that he wants to continue seeing his son and you'd like to encourage that, you would like your dd to have a good relationship with her half brother but that is not happening and you won't have your dd (and his dd lets not forget) bullied.

Kyrptonite Sun 10-Mar-13 09:19:53

He's just a boy. He will hurt his sister and I would put money on her provoking him at times too. You obviously actively dislike him so its no wonder he is taking it out on your daughter who is his opinion has the stable family that he doesn't and sees more of his dad then he does.

Calling any child evil is not acceptable. You sound nasty and jealous of the boy (speaking as someone who's stepmum was exactly like this) and if you had called my son evil I'd be fucking furious.

seeker Sun 10-Mar-13 09:26:12

"but I exploded calling him a liar and evil "

WitchOfEndor Sun 10-Mar-13 09:33:04

I think you are doing the right thing, you are protecting your child and teaching your DSS that it isn't ok to hurt other children. Put it in a letter to your DH if he won't listen.

Stripedpyjamas Sun 10-Mar-13 09:45:10

Hi OP, I feel for you. I've been nothing but understanding to spoilt dsc, always taking back seat to them and their wants. Catering to a child's needs is a different matter and obviously dss mum is not doing that, his dad is a disney dad and also not fulfilling the child's need for boundaries and opportunities to rid self of aggression and inner turmoil. Perhaps he could take his son footballing or something? My dh and I are now in counseling and am not sure if its going to help. The abuse I had to put up with for years has taken its toll.
I used to feel very upset dh did not want more children with me. Thankfully I have ds of my own and realize any more dc would never have measured up to first set he had with ex. Why, I don't know. False pride perhaps? I now feel dh wanted a stable relationship mostly for dsc, not because I was the love of his life. I was to be the better mother for them, preferably exclusively, my own ds never got close the attention/presents/praise....his get. It's a bind.Good luck.

Kyrptonite Sun 10-Mar-13 09:45:16

You do realise that although he may well be bullying your DD, you are bullying him. Exploding in the face of a child is not acceptable. If he had genuinely put your DDs life at risk it would be understandable but kids argue. He has a sister who he is most probably a bit jealous of and a stepmum who seems to despise him and wants to ban him from the house.

Talk to your husband. Tell him you're not happy and you want to come up with some reasonable sanctions if either of your DCs are hurting each other.

racmun Sun 10-Mar-13 09:52:15

OMG I could have written your post myself. Step son is 9 my ds is 2.5. Ss deliberately kicked him over yesterday- a huge row ensued and I'm still furious now!

I need to go to the top of a mountain and screeeeeeeeeeeeeam.
So so so hard. I have started though to report everything to dh and insist that he deals with it.

And it's Mother's Day!!!!

flurp Sun 10-Mar-13 10:02:45

Oh sorry! I felt bad that I had said he was evil blush I had forgotten that the OP said that to him!
I didn't want her getting flamed for something I had said.
As you were .......

TheonlyWayisGerard Sun 10-Mar-13 10:16:33

I feel sorry for the boy tbh. You obviously can't stand him, which I expect he's picked up on and is probably acting up to reflect this. Siblings will nearly always fight. My brothers were terrible. Yes, what he did wasn't nice and your OH needs to listen to you and your DD and discipline his son, but I think screaming in his face and calling him evil was an horrendous thing to do to a child.
I don't think having 'slanging matches' with his mother is helpful either, I expect she's angry about what you did to him, a child!
I'm not blaming you for everything, your OH and the boys mother need to look at things diplomatically and not automatically believe their son, but tbh, I would be outraged if you had reacted like that to my son. Kids fight, kids deny things that have blatantly happened, it's what they do. How old is DSS out of interest?

indahouse Sun 10-Mar-13 10:22:33

It must be soo hard for the stepchildren to see their half siblings in a happy family with dad around all the time when they themselves are unwanted strangers in their own father's house. Even a Saint would feel the urge to stick an elbow out sometimes.

But I am sorry you have to go through this. It is a really difficult situation.

clam Sun 10-Mar-13 11:12:42

There are two issues here. One is that the lad is behaving badly and you feel that the behaviour is being condoned by his dad, which will make things even worse. The second is that it is (understandably) making you feel very negative towards the boy - and your husband - which is now coming out in a quite destructive way.

I actually think that it was wrong of you to call him a liar and evil even if he is. I think you should find a way of apologising for that bit, BUT make it clear that you saw what happened (in other words you know he was fibbing/minimising the truth)and you won't tolerate that sort of behaviour in future.

Petal02 Mon 11-Mar-13 16:52:22

Quest - are you OK? Can you update us? Did DSS come for the weekend, or not? I'm really, really hoping you didn't apologise.

mumandboys123 Mon 11-Mar-13 18:01:22

The reason I asked 'how would you feel if someone called your child evil' is for the OP to reflect a bit on what happened. If I called one of my students 'evil' (and some of 'em deserve it, believe me!), the parents would do their nut and I would likely face some kind of disciplinary action. If I marched over to a child in my care in a swimming pool in public and called them evil (which is what the OP seems to be suggesting is what happened) then the parents would have reason to be doubly mad and demand I was disciplined. It's simply not acceptable.

For me, step parents take on a role not unlike that of a teacher - as a parent you are handing the most precious thing in the world over to another person who you had no hand in choosing as 'suitable' and you have to trust that person do do the right thing by your child at all times. That includes treating them with respect and dealing with any disciplinary issues that may arise in a firm but fair way. If you think it unacceptable a teacher behaves in this way then in most cases, it's probably the case that it's also unreasonable for a step parent.

None of that excuses the OP's partner, however, who is clearly struggling with boundaries and not wanting to face up to what his child may be doing.

allnewtaketwo Mon 11-Mar-13 18:39:10

It's nothing like being a teacher for gods sake. As a teacher it makes not one jot if a difference to your family or your life whether they're behavioural development is good, bad or indifferent. You don't have to put up with any consequences and at 3.30 or whatever you leave them behind, money in pocket so to speak. As long as you teach the syllabus, it doesn't matter to you if they go home and smash someone's head in.

Petal02 Mon 11-Mar-13 18:49:07

Excellent post Allnew. Teacher's don't take their pupils with them, nor do they have their home-lives rocked by their bad behaviour.

Maybe the OP's DSS does feel resentful that he's only with his Dad sometimes, whereas the OP's daughter is there all the time - but none of this is the daughter's fault, and why should the OP watch her child being picked on by an older boy, who gets away with all sorts just because his parents are separated? And as for the OP's DH - don't get me started in him; aren't men supposed to be protective of their daughters? Clearly any desire to protect the child is over ridden by his Disney tendancies. And as we all know, Disney thinking generally flies in the face of common sense!

mumandboys123 Mon 11-Mar-13 18:52:34

it's very similar. I'm sorry you don't see it that way. I have tried to explain. And yes, it does matter to me if one of my students smashes someone's head in during the time I am with them at least - because that would be as much my responsibility as his/hers. Behavioural development is incredibly important in the classroom and affects everything, just as it affects your homelife if a step child misbehaves.

I suppose then it's fine to verbally attack a child in a public place and call him/her names? Would you be happy for me to do that to your child if he/she was caught pushing my child whilst we're out swimming?

clam Mon 11-Mar-13 19:01:35

I'm with you, mumandboys

Petal02 Mon 11-Mar-13 19:14:30

But when you're in a pupil/teacher situation, it's unlikely you'll witness your own child being hit by another, so it's a less emotive situation. I understand the point you make about a teacher being "in loco parentis" in rather the same way as a step parent - however the consequences of a classroom altercation do not affect your marriage and your own children, in the ways that a step family fall-out does.

mumandboys123 Mon 11-Mar-13 19:27:27

I understand that point, Petal. What I am asking is whether or not the action of admonishing a child in a public place to the point of calling him 'evil' is acceptable? if you won't accept this from your children's teachers or another adult in a 'parental' relationship with your child, is it OK to say it, even in the heat of the moment? in this situation that is being described, is it any different to a teacher calling a child 'evil' in front of a whole class for having done something that they shouldn't and the teacher happened to have had their fill and flipped out at that moment?

If you think it acceptable, then we fundamentally disagree and there is little more to be said. But answering this question is being avoided by everyone who appears on the 'side' of the OP and that's important from my perspective because whilst the OP has every right to be fed up and upset and angry and everything else, her own behaviour has helped to make the situation what it is today (probably more so than that of the child) and that needs addressing. At least from where I'm standing. I am not suggesting she is in the wrong - I can see her point - but how she has dealt with it is very wrong and I'm trying to see if she can see if from that point of view. If she can't, fine. But if she can, then perhaps we can help find ways of sorting everything out so her marriage isn't threatened which right now it is.

Petal02 Mon 11-Mar-13 20:11:26

I think even the OP would admit she probably flipped when she saw her DSS hurting her daughter at the pool. But she's had years of provocation, years of watching her little girl being picked on by this boy, while her husband (who is also the girls father) conveniently turns a blind eye to indulge the step son.

Don't under estimate how maddening a Disney dad and his un-parented offspring can be. And if your daughter is suffering because of this combination, then it would take a saint not to lose it sometimes.

eskimofriends Mon 11-Mar-13 20:17:09

I do sympathise with OP. Step parenting is incredibly difficult (as most of us here know only too well). And it would be unfair to flame her without seeing the bigger picture. What strikes me, however, is that if OP's DSS is badly behaved, we should remember that children copy the behaviour of the adults around them. So OP, her DH and his ExW are all role models for DSS. OP says that she exploded and shouted at DSS. OP's DH shouts over her and refuses to listen. And OP and DSS's mum had a slanging match over the phone - which DSS quite possibly overheard. If the adults around him deal with conflict by screaming and shouting - is it any surprise that DSS has not learnt any other way of resolving his own anger?

mumandboys123 Mon 11-Mar-13 20:18:17

and again, teachers have years of provocation but you wouldn't expect them to behave in this way towards a child in their care!

it is pretty normal for siblings to quarrel, hit each other, be sneaky about it and tell lies about it. It is also pretty normal that parents don't agree on how it should be dealt with whether or not they live together and all the complications that go with having step parents in the picture as well. I do agree that the father needs to accept some blame for what has happened here but so does the OP. What they need is a way forward they can both agree on - which I guess is the hard part.

Petal02 Mon 11-Mar-13 20:26:58

To be honest I think it's the OP's DP who is to blame here. He continually failed to parent his son, to the detriment of his small daughter, and has driven his wife to the point where she, understandably, loses her temper.

This happens so often in step families - the father refuses to parent, the new wife finds it really hard, nothing changes, and when she finally snaps she is the one who takes the blame.

The OP's anger is a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem.

allnewtaketwo Mon 11-Mar-13 21:21:13

Mumandboys are you on drugs? Just because I don't agree with your teacher analogy you ask if I would be happy for you to push my child? hmm. What on earth is wrong with you?

Stripedpyjamas Tue 12-Mar-13 07:27:40

Would just like to comment on the lying part. My ds is 2 years older than dss and although dss got to share all ds toys, pc and games etc etc it was never enough. The anger a dsc feels at another child spending more time with a parent seems immeasurable. If there was a skirmish dss would always lie he was picked on or tell half truths to get my ds into trouble, even when the adults had witnessed the incident. There was never any logic to explain his behaviour. Disney dad never said a thing, at worst though would try to mildly bully my ds on behalf of dss to get even password to ds pc! Although there are 5 pc in the house. Only my stepping back and insistence on proper parenting by dh has calmed situation over the years. And yes, I'm a teacher too. I see provocation a mile off so feel better prepared for it. And yes, I'd prefer not to deal with this at home too, ... It's exhausting.

flurp Tue 12-Mar-13 12:36:34

The resentment must be enormous for a stepchild seeing their father with a new full time family which he or she is only a part of at weekends/holidays.
BUT it is down to the adults (ie the father) to teach the child to deal with that resentment in a positive way.
My DSS resents the fact that now he shares toys with my children. There is no point buying two copies of the same game or dvd or whatever it is he wants but we have made a house rule that all toys are shared by all the dc so there is no squabbling and he has worked out that it means they can have more stuff if its shared. Also my DSD resented me terribly as the other female in her dad's life and went ultra clingy when we first got together. We let her be clingy for a while then had to tell her that she had to actually let her older brother near her dad sometimes and she has gradually eased up as her confidence grew.
Its part of parenting to show them how to deal with their feelings, not to turn a blind eye to bad behaviour because you don't want to rock the boat.

mumandboys123 Tue 12-Mar-13 22:15:02

allnew what a ridiculous comment. I guess attempting to ridicule is better than attempting to see someone else's point of view, isn't it?

Xalla Wed 13-Mar-13 06:21:23

I also think the teacher analogy is ridiculous. I work in a school, not as a teacher but I still come across very difficult behaviour at times and yes of course, you have to remain professional.
I'm also a stepmother to a little girl who can be very difficultand very jealous at times. I do not feel the need to behave 'professionally' when I am at home. My mantra has been as far as possible to treat her in the exact same way I would treat my own children and I do not treat my own children like I treat my students! If I feel myself getting to the point where I can't discipline my DSD in a reasonable manner, I send her to her room until my DH gets home and leave him to deal with it. Fortunately for me, my DH DOES deal with it. Unfortunately for the OP her DP doesn't deal with it and that leaves her with very few options. I agree; it would take a saint not to explode with frustration.
I can see why a woman who was not a stepmother herself but whose children have a stepmother would liken the stepmother's role to that of a teacher; detached, professional, accountable etc but I certainly don't believe it's a realistic expectation. Not when you have your SC from a very young age, not when you have them very often (at least 50% of the time in my case) and not when you have other children at home of a similar age.

allnewtaketwo Wed 13-Mar-13 06:39:22

Mumandboys your teacher analogy is ridiculous, and when I told you so, you asked me if I would be ok for you to push my child confused. That's not a very mature response to someone who doesn't agree with you.

As a teacher, you do not need to be concerned whether a child's behaviour will adversely impact your own child, physically or emotionally, your marriage or your home. It's a job, for which you are rewarded, and from which you enjoy a significant time away from. So nothing at all like a child of the family, at home, for the rest of your life.

As a teacher, you can garner the support of your head, the union, hopefully both the child's parents where possible to improve the situation. the OP has no such support. She's on her own in this, and its happening in her own home. She can't leave the situation at 3.30, safe in the knowledge her family is unscathed and she has every night, weekends, holidays away from the bullying. She can't go to her boss for support. She can't go to a union if he doesn't get this support. No similarity at all. She has no "authority" over the child. No right to send him out of "class" when he gets unruly. Can't take any time off"work" when she's had enough. Need I go on. It's completely different.

mumandboys123 Wed 13-Mar-13 19:56:40

We will need to agree to disagree. I could counter-argue your last post to the nth degree but it is clearly pointless.

I have simply asked if you consider it appropriate that an adult in a 'parental' position with a child is allowed to shout at a child, call that child 'evil' and do all of that in a public place which will have no doubt proved humilliating for said child. You seem to be suggesting that it is acceptable because of what the OP 'has had to put up with'. I argue it isn't acceptable and that we all have to put up with an awful lot but never behave in that way towards the children in our care.

allnewtaketwo Thu 14-Mar-13 07:27:33

I didn't say it is acceptable at all. You have foisted that opinion in my direction, purely because I disagreed with you that a deep patent position is anything like a teaching position.

Up thread you referred to people being "on the OPs side". This is not the playground. Their are no "sides", merely opinions. And someone having an opinion different to yours does not place said person on the OPs "side".

What I would say, however, is that I am pretty sure a number if parents (non step) have shouted at their own child in public, and on occasion at the end of their tether called them similar, same or worse than the OP is guilty of

RustyBear Thu 14-Mar-13 07:49:27

Allnew, I think you need to re-read mumandboys post - she did not 'ask if it would be OK for her to push your child', she said

"I suppose then it's fine to verbally attack a child in a public place and call him/her names? Would you be happy for me to do that to your child if he/she was caught pushing my child whilst we're out swimming?" (My italics)

allnewtaketwo Thu 14-Mar-13 07:59:10

What's the difference though. The point is she asked me if I would be ok for her to attack (verbally as per the exact words) my child. And she asked the question specifically to me solely on the basis that I disagreed with her teacher analogy. So specific words aside, my point remains

RustyBear Thu 14-Mar-13 10:39:35

No, she asked the question using those specific words because that was the specific situation in the OP.

But I'm off this thread because I don't see the point in wasting time arguing with someone who appears to share Humpty Dumpty's attitude to words....

allnewtaketwo Thu 14-Mar-13 11:22:51

off you go then, byyyeeee

Petal02 Thu 14-Mar-13 21:07:18

I just wish the OP would come back and update us. Quest - are you ok?

quest12 Thu 14-Mar-13 22:49:45

Hi thanks for all the replies I'm overwhelmed at the help and opinions you have all given good or bad I'm happy to hear what you all think as I asked because I wanted different opinions, Thank you to petal02 who has asked how I am personally I appreciate it xxxx sooooo I refused to apologise and dss did not visit, so dh was grumpy all wkend playing the blame card. One thing I did not mention was about a year ago when dss behaviour towards my dd was getting too bad I told him to have a word or see him alone, he assured me he had but on talking to my dd this week she said she hated being alone with dss and dh on her own as she felt left out and if she told dh anything that happened he would take dss side now I know why she's been clinging to me at wkends. My dss is 14 at an age where I'm sure even you haters would agree is old enuf to know right from wrong, Yes I do admit calling him evil may have been a step too far but put yourself in my shoes, I have let my dss away with everything in the past as I didn't want to jeopardise my dh relationship with him. My dd is 7 since she was 2 she's been bullied and tormented and I've been helpless as dh was terrified of dss not visiting. I finally snapped and yes in a public place but I've seen bio parents tell there own child off just as much and if I seen my dd elbow someone in the swimming pool then laugh in their face while they cried you can be sure she would get a gud telling off!

quest12 Thu 14-Mar-13 22:56:58

And pls realise that now my dd has thanked me for sticking up for her how guilty I feel for all the times when in her little head she thought I wasn't.

flurp Fri 15-Mar-13 11:26:14

You could almost understand this situation if your DD wasn't your DH's and he was sticking up for his son but the fact that she is his DD makes the whole situation appalling.
He is a poor excuse for a father - favouring his DS over his DD and they will grow up to hate each other if nothing changes.
She is lucky to have you and if I were you I would have no respect for your 'D'H at all and would seriously be considering leaving.

dignifiedsilence Fri 15-Mar-13 11:38:39

Why does it always kick off on here? confused
Lets look at the bigger picture......DH is not able to parent his son full time and carries around a certain amount of guilt for that (it goes with the territory of being a good dad). DC then allowed to get away with a lot more than any other child because he A. Only sees him once a week, B. He's frightened of telling him off in case he won't want to come anymore. or C. He's frightened of the DC's mother withdrawing contact.......or D. Some other reason.
In any case its a recipe for disaster for everyone else. Whilst I am not condoning calling a child 'evil' I can fully understand the OP's point of view. If you are witnessing 1 child being treated better than another then at some point you are bound to lose it...this IMHO is the OP only mistake. If this child is going through a phase he needs consistent parenting from all sides and that includes consequences when he misbehaves. If his dad doesn't set down some rules and boundaries and stick to them this isn't going to stop.
Just my 2 pennies worth

Jan45 Fri 15-Mar-13 11:56:46

This has got way out of hand, you're angry, hubby's angry and ex is angry, over what really, a little spat between children, all pretty normal in my book. Saying that, the son does need to be told his behaviour is wrong and will not be tolerated. I don't really agree with the poster who says the boy must be angry, confused, bewildered, it's been six years has it not, surely he's over his parents split by then?

The ex expecting you to apologise is an absolute joke, she wasn't even there, does she really think her son is telling her the complete truth, I bet she knows it's not, sounds like she just like stirring trouble for you both.

Tbh, I don't see a bright future for you and your OH-unless you can both agree guidelines, rules, sing from the same sheet, this will be a constant battle that you should not have to be fighting.

You either stand your ground and sort out the issues with OH or accept that this is the way it is and step back and keep out, depends on the kind of person you are really, I couldn't keep out but some folk could.

dignifiedsilence Fri 15-Mar-13 12:02:19

I agree with Jan....I would like to think I am the kind of person who could step back and keep quiet but I can't. It would be the beginning of the end for me and not just for the way he is treating me but the way he seems to have different rules for your daughter x

Jan45 Fri 15-Mar-13 12:10:07

Don't worry about getting angry and calling him evil, we've all done it, every parent loses their rag now and again, you're only human.

Keep us updated but this weekend, be kind to yourself x

Petal02 Fri 15-Mar-13 13:07:52

you could almost understand the situation if your daughter wasn't your husband's child

Absolutely. And even as a non-parent, it really troubles me to think of a little girl who badly wants some support from her Dad, only to find he sticks up with the boy who bullies her. That's really shocked me. I would have been heart broken if my Dad had behaved like that.

Dignified is spot-on with her A/B/C/D reasons about why the OP's DH behaves the way he does. It's Disney in the extreme.

Well done Quest, for sticking to your guns and not apologising. I wonder what will happen next time DSS is supposed to visit though? Will he still be expecting an apology? Perhaps the ex will be so keen for some child free time that she makes him go regardless, which would be no bad thing as then things are back to normal (ish) without you backing down.

Do keep us posted OP.

noam Fri 15-Mar-13 13:50:12

Not quite sure how standing your ground and refusing to apologise has helped here. DSS doesn't see his father or sister. DD doesn't see her brother. DH is angry and OP's marriage is strained.

Why? Because OP won't apologise for what was a horrible thing to say. Yes, all parents lose it with their kids. Course we do. But we blummin well apologise afterwards - or we should! How else do they learn to apologise for what they've done wrong?

And please, whoever is advising OP to walk away from her marriage. Really?? Another child witnessing parents divorce at 7 years old? Another saga of EOW visits and your child hit my child etc. How is that a positive resolution to this?

OP - I sympathise. Really, I do. Step-parenting is a bl**dy nightmare sometimes. But you have to be the bigger person here. Round the table - talk it through - family counselling - whatever. Do something. Explain to everyone how you feel. Lay basic houserules. Drag DH to Relate - by a leash if you have to. But digging your heels in and refusing to say sorry - well, my toddler does that. And even she knows it never ends well.

Petal02 Fri 15-Mar-13 15:17:54

But if the OP had apologised, then nothing is ever going to improve for her 7 yr old daughter. People'seem to forget about the well being of this little girl, and automatically rush to the defence of the step child. Just because this boy has separated parents he should not be "above the law" to the detriment of a young girl.

Also, if the OP were to apologise, then she's bowing down to the ex and her DSS. Not only would this be really unwise, but kids and exes do NOT rule the roost and most of us would rather stick pins in our eyes before apologising under these circumstances.

As I said before, the OP's loss of temper is a symptom of the underlying problem, not the cause if the problem. I totally get this because I had a melt down a few years ago, telling DH a few home truths about his lilly-livered parenting. He could 't cope with the truth, and twisted the situation, saying I needed anger management classes - whereas if he did some proper parenting, there would be no anger to manage.

flurp Fri 15-Mar-13 15:30:21

I would leave my DP if he looked in and did nothing while one of his dc was bullied in her own home.
I think witnessing a break up is better than years of torment from her brother and a father who won't stand up for her.
To me it's about respect.
I couldn't be with a man I didn't respect and I wouldn't respect a man who let this happen.
Each to their own though smile

catsmother Fri 15-Mar-13 16:02:21

Deep breath ..... I'll probably be hung drawn and quartered by the end of this post but ....

.... whilst I agree that calling a child "evil" is far from ideal, I do totally understand why the OP flipped. It's awful to watch a younger child being bullied by an older one and in most cases there's a significant difference in size and strength between a 14 year old boy - a teenager and a 7 year old girl - a primary school child which makes any "normal" sibling "spatting" in this particular case a little bit different to bickering etc when the kids involved are much closer in age to each other. This particular incident was far from a one-off - it's been going on for 5 years IIRC .... and again, I find that especially nasty when you consider a 2 year old DD - a toddler, practically a baby really - being picked on by a much bigger child. My daughter's 9 and I would come down very hard indeed on her were she to be mean or to torment such a young child (or any child for that matter).

So - it's not surprising the OP lost it and all things considered I think SS deserved to have a strip torn off him. Yes - her choice of words was perhaps ill advised because the spoilt brat SS and his pathetic blinkered father have siezed upon the "terrible" thing she called him as opposed to the much worse behaviour and attitude that they both display towards DD. Comparing OP's outburst with SS's bullying and DH's blinkered ignorance/irresponsibility/favouritism I know which one I'd say was the lesser of two evils actually (no pun intended).

Okay .... you now have this stalemate situation and obviously splitting up would be a last resort and far from desirable. But on the other hand, if both SS and DH see nothing wrong in what they've done - for several bloody years - then how on earth is that going to benefit OP and her daughter. Poor kid - not only does she get picked on - but her dad never protects her. I find it very hard to believe that in 5 years he's never witnessed the bullying for himself - and if he has, then his head in the sand dishonesty about it is absolutely disgusting. Even if he's convinced himself he's not seen anything, why, does he always accept his son's word as read ? I remember arguing with my sister like most kids do but when either one of us went moaning to mum and dad if neither of them had seen what had happened they either ignored us both, or punished us both - they never favoured one of us over the other at all.

I don't think the OP should apologise as things stand. The current situation has all been turned around to be all about what she's done - which is far far less important than sorting out what they've done. For this family to be able to go forward, that needs to a) be acknowledged and b) be tackled .... which is going to be a huge ask as it's been going on for so long. Clearly, in order to keep ex and older child "sweet" dad has decided that he'll effectively sacrifice his younger child so he never has to challenge, discipline or heaven forbid punish his nasty brat of an older son. Presumably he's petrified about losing contact - such a ^familiar story - but that's simply not a good enough reason to betray his daughter the way he's been doing. I don't know if he'd be prepared to take that on board or not but yes, family counselling would be a very good idea as a last attempt to have him see sense. There's never any reason for perpetually favouring one child over another, and if he still refused to accept that after counselling, or, argued that he "had to" in order to "keep" SS then OP would have an answer once and for all about what he truly thought of her and their daughter. That is - if he agreed to speak to a 3rd party at all ... I think many of these men know damn well how monstrously unfair they're being but would refuse counselling because in a situation like this there really is only one right answer and that is to treat all your kids fairly. The ideal of course is that DH realises the error of his ways and agrees to impose fair discipline and boundaries with SS going forward in order to preserve his marriage and ensure his daughter is treated equally and fairly compared to SS.

OP - I feel so angry for you ..... yes, it's not unreasonable for your DH to feel desperately frightened about losing his son and he's in an unenviable position with a spiteful ex who has a history of alienating kids against their dad. For that, you have to feel sorry for him but good god, the right way of dealing with that is NOT to shit over your youngest child. What he should have done and believe me, I know first hand this is no easy answer either is to treat both kids the same (obviously age appropriateness notwithstanding) and if that included having to discipline SS every so often (show me a child who doesn't need to be disciplined ever!) then so be it. If the result of that meant loss of contact then DH should have immediately dragged the mother into court rather than rely upon her co-operation. And yes I also know court orders often aren't worth the paper they're written on but that's still the right thing to do when you have a bitter spiteful ex who won't back up the NRP over normal disciplinary issues. The men who choose the "easy" option of tiptoeing round their (invariably) spoilt and bratty kids who hold a totally inappropriate amount of power due to their parents being unable or refusing to co-operate pretty much disgust me whatever sympathy I feel for their fear of "losing" non resident kids .... you simply can't allow one child to take the hit (literally it would seem in this case) because you don't like the idea of the alternative - brat child stropping off. How bloody cowardly is that ?

So ..... OP, you've got this awful situation and in your shoes I'd tell your DH that you both need family counselling urgently to try and find a way forward. And personally speaking, I'd be happy to apologise for my poor choice of vocabulary but only when both DH and SS had offered genuine apologies of their own, together with a promise that things would be different from now on. At 14 SS is well old enough to know how he's behaving is wrong - I'm sure his school has an anti-bullying policy for example and I'm sure it's drummed into them. I wonder how his school would treat him if they found him bullying a Year 6 kid never mind a 7 year old. Yes, you can't say you're totally innocent in what's happened that'd be ridiculous but if you look at this as an overall and longstanding problem - which you should do - your contribution, oh dear, calling SS a nasty name under great provocation amounts to a tiny fraction of the larger issue. And that's why I think it's so important that DH and SS recognise how bloody awful they've been first. Not so you get the pleasure of "winning" or anything like that but because it's vital to the future of your family that they do so. If they can't/won't then I don't really see how you can carry on with DH - all your respect for him would have gone and just as importantly, your daughter's self esteem will be destroyed by not feeling her dad has her best interests at heart and that she's clearly second best.

Petal02 Fri 15-Mar-13 16:23:22

Bravo Catsmother - superb post.

Jan45 Fri 15-Mar-13 16:57:18

Brilliant post Castmother...thanks

dignifiedsilence Fri 15-Mar-13 17:11:31

Yes I'll second that....brilliant post and well balanced opinions xx

Theydeserve Fri 15-Mar-13 18:00:09

Excellent post.

OP has to accept that her DSS is part of her family aswell, both kids need nuturing and protecting by all the dumb adults involved!

flurp Sat 16-Mar-13 08:36:54

Round of applause for catsmother
thanksthanksthanksthanks

dignifiedsilence Sat 16-Mar-13 10:30:46

Theydeserve...what do you mean by your comment? It sounds to me like the OP has been living with a very difficult situation and walking around this child on eggshells because IMHO his dad doesn't parent him properly. I don't think she has in any way not accepted him as part of the family more the fact he gets away with bad behaviour.

Petal02 Wed 20-Mar-13 19:12:09

OP - can you update us, has there been any more developments ?

Petal02 Mon 25-Mar-13 13:17:05

Just bumping this up, hoping the OP will come back and update us?

LookingForwardToMarch Tue 02-Apr-13 10:43:13

Another bump...also wondering. Any updates OP?

quest12 Sat 06-Apr-13 00:01:30

sorry for the delay but hubs ended up leaving and taking the laptop with him, ds refused to come down although his mum told dh this not him so dh seen him on his own and came back and said i had to apologise or he was leaving so i told him to go, he did but came back 2 days later saying he had made a big mistake and he would not talk about me saying sorry again, he has seen ds on his own and ds has said to him he wants to come down but his mum would be angry if he did as she thinks im evil apparently so i can assume i have been talked about lots in their house!! i am willing to let this continue and not back down as i feel i am in the right, if he comes back to stay with us or visit it will be on my terms and my daughter will be my main priority and dh knows this now it was one of my main things i made clear when he was begging to come back! so he knows it wont be tolerated! thanks for all your replies and concern xxxxxxx

allnewtaketwo Sat 06-Apr-13 08:33:53

Good for you quest, you did the right thing for your daughter

allnewtaketwo Sat 06-Apr-13 09:54:55

Good for you quest, you did the right thing for your daughter

Petal02 Sat 06-Apr-13 18:15:15

Quest, great to hear from you. Well done for sticking to your guns and fighting for better treatment for your daugher. You called his bluff and you won!

brdgrl Sun 07-Apr-13 01:27:14

Good. I hope things continue to improve.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sun 07-Apr-13 02:11:39

I'll answer your question, mum.

If you were a teacher, and one if your pupils, much older than your DD, elbowed your own DD in the face, and then laughed at her afterwards, I would bet your bottom dollar that you would react emotively, like a mother bear protecting her cubs.

Because I know I would.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Sun 07-Apr-13 02:22:39

Just read the update - I'm glad this seems to have some improvements.

Jan45 Mon 08-Apr-13 15:55:28

Great!

quest12 Fri 12-Apr-13 00:25:55

although i know i am in the right by protecting my daughter by not backing down can anyone tell me how this might go in the future? my hubs is seeing dss on his own at the mo but hates that he cant bring him here (dss choice not mine i have said hes welcome) if he decides he never wants to come here again how will the future go? does anyone think i should try to broker peace for my dhs sake or should i stick to my guns?

Alwayscheerful Fri 12-Apr-13 09:36:08

Petal and notadisneymum always seem to have good strategies.

Fwiw I think you are now on the right track?

I have a grown up daughter and 3 stepchildren, they have been in my life 10 years, as a family we have blended and I love them, there have been more good times than bad but it has been tough going. The children's mother loves them but they experience a chaotic life with her - low level neglect, years of nits, late nights, very poor diets, unwashed bedding but lots of treats, holidays, trips to New York, meals out, takeaways and private school for the youngest. To add to the chaos she had another child 3 years years ago and is still a single parent. We have never tried to compete with the treats, we try to structure their weekend weekends with us in a loving home with two parents who live by example, good food, clean beds, lots of sleep and Lots of laughter. The children have at times commented on the different life styles in the two households, I know they find it difficult, but they seem to benefit from the boundaries we set and being loved and nurtured.

We make decisions together, we support each other, we sing from the same hymn sheet where discipline is concerned and the children can never work out which of us is the weaker one or who is in charge. The youngest once asked "so who is in charge then?"

My advice to you is stick to your guns, decide on the outcome you want and do what is necessary to achieve it.

My husband would describe it as playing the long game, he would say goodness will prevail, he means do the right thing and things will turn out ok in the end.

I have rambled but I am trying to say fight for what you all need, stay strong for both the children and stick to your guns, always try to do the right thing and remember what children need most is boundaries.

Xx

Petal02 Fri 12-Apr-13 10:00:15

Quest, you are definitely doing the right thing by protecting your daughter’s interests. And it’s not as though your DH isn’t seeing his son, it’s just that the son isn’t visiting your house, due to his own choice.

However if your DH was prepared to do some proper parenting, there would be no reason why the son couldn’t have ‘normal’ visits your house, as if disciplined appropriately, he would no longer pose a threat to your daughter’s well-being.

To a degree, your DSS is still calling the shots with your DH; you’ve said he’s welcome to come to the house, DSS is refusing and your DH is indulging this. As you’ve been really strong and have achieved results, I’d be tempted (as the earlier poster said) to play the long came – if you attempt to broker peace with an over-indulged 13 yr old (I think you said he’s 13?) you’re also pandering to him. He’s not the adult here; don’t give him too much power.

Stick to your guns!!!

Alwayscheerful Fri 12-Apr-13 10:04:35

Quite agree petal, "lets remember who the adults are" is one of our favourites.

dignifiedsilence Fri 12-Apr-13 11:25:19
AnAirOfHope Fri 12-Apr-13 11:51:16

Dont.back down. If Dss cant be nice then let dh see him away from the home untill dh grows balls and starts putting boundries in place.

How old is dss?

Kaluki Fri 12-Apr-13 12:10:28

Dignified - that link is brilliant. Just the sort of common sense attititude that is missing in so many stepfamilies.
Quest - I agree don't back down or try to make the peace.
If your DP won't parent his child then he will have to see him away from you. This is the easy option for him so let him carry on.
You can have a nice time with your DD without her being scared of her stepbrotehr.

dignifiedsilence Fri 12-Apr-13 12:18:57

Thanks Kaluki I thought it gave a balanced and fair way of dealing with things.

Petal02 Fri 12-Apr-13 12:19:31

Also, if you back down in any way to appease DSS, you're doing this to the detriment of your daughter.

Kaluki Fri 12-Apr-13 12:19:57

I'm going to print it off and stick it to my fridge!!!

Alwayscheerful Fri 12-Apr-13 16:08:01

Excellent common sense link.

theredhen Fri 12-Apr-13 16:50:26

Dignified, I also really like the link! grin

dignifiedsilence Sat 13-Apr-13 12:51:55

Thanks redhen smile If you go to it there are loads of others that are similar too xx

quest12 Fri 03-May-13 20:24:31

Ok quick update and views if you can spare your time. Diss still won't come down has told dh he never wants to see me again. Ok so dh has been seeing him alone but as he can't come here he has to take him out all day so Disney dad is back! Every wkend since they've been the funfair, the beach, amusements, etc. then when dh returns and dd asks what he's been doing and he tells her he says if you want to see your brother you can come too - just your mum can't come as her and your brother have fallen out! He has promised a trip the zoo this wkend and suddenly I'm realising if she goes then she is left with Disney dad and me not there to protect her! If diss is horrible to her I know dh will tell her not to tell me and so diss is free to do as he wants, what should I do? Shows the old adage of keep your kids friends close and their tormenting older step brother closer really is true!
HELP!!!!!!!!!

quest12 Fri 03-May-13 20:28:16

Oh and she doesn't like how she is treated by diss but dad making everything sound rosy like the zoo day is going to be perfect in fact I think diss will be worse with her as I'm not there!

NotaDisneyMum Fri 03-May-13 21:00:35

quest Take a deep breath and read what you have just written.

You do not trust your DP, the father of your DD, to protect her from harm because the threat comes from your DSS. Can you see how absolutely unacceptable that situation is?

Please, please consider carefully the long term future of this relationship. Your DP is your DDs dad, but it is clear that he places one of his DCs far higher in his priorities than the other. How long before your DD begins to realise that she is 'Daddys second best'? Do you really want her to grow up seeing you support his position?

allnewtaketwo Fri 03-May-13 21:45:43

What a difficult situation though. Even if OP and DP split up, that means that more so than ever, DD will be exposed to bullying from the DSS while with her father, and OP would have even less control sad

quest12 Fri 03-May-13 22:10:48

Nada I know in my spouse language the only thing I can say is that my head is wrecked, he's trying to please dss again cause he is saying he misses dd but she has told me she likes it better that he's not coming down but don't tell daddy as hel be upset, he's trying to bribe her into coming out by promising nice days which make her forget what mite happen as she's thinking about going out. But what should I do forbid her to go and look bad? If we split up it wud be my worse nightmare as I would have no control, she already thinks daddy is nicer to dss but he says to her that's because I don't see him as much as u, oh my god what can I do? Where is petal with her good advice!!!!!!!

Petal02 Sat 04-May-13 11:35:23

This is a hideous situation. Firstly, by DSS refusing to come to the house, the OP's DH is doing the completely wrong thing by 'rewarding' this behaviour with trips to the beach etc. Not to mention that it's totally at odds with creating a blended family. So yet again, DSS is calling the shots, just in a different way this time. I really wish the DH would have the balls to tell DSS that if he wishes to spend time with his Dad, then it can't always be in a 'treat' environment; but I expect the DH is too Disney and too scared of losing contact, to do this.

This alone is completely untenable, but as the OP also has to consider the welfare of her daughter, I'm at a loss to know what to suggest. Of the course the daughter is going to want to join in zoo trips etc, but it's just terrible that the DH can't be trusted to protect her from DSS.

I would also be considering the implications of staying with a man who can't can't be relied on to protect his own little girl, (and I think that alone is terrible - aren't Dad's supposed to look after their daughters???). However I completely take the point that if the OP split up with her DH, she's then have to deal with sending this poor little girl away on access weekends, when she'd have no one to protect her. Although I do wonder how bothered the DH would be about seeing his daughter in the event of a split, He doesn't seem to care very much about her.

This is one of the most toxic situations I've read about on these boards; a man who is so Disney towards his son, that he let's his small daughter suffer. OP, in your position I would not despatch your daughter to join in with days out, because you can't guaranteed her welfare.

And have you asked your DH how long he expects this will continue, another month, another year - does he honestly think he can conduct a relationship with his son in isolation to the rest of the family?

Petal02 Sat 04-May-13 12:45:19

Of course, ideally your DH should tell his son that its time to get back to normal now, that this has gone on for long enough, and that all subsequent visits will take place at your home, and that DD is not to be picked on.

Is there any chance at all of that happening?

I wouldn't put my pets in a situation where I thought they'd be mistreated, let alone a 7 yr old girl.

DoctorAnge Sat 04-May-13 13:09:17

What a terrible situation.
OP he is an awful father. You don't trust your little girl with him and I dOnt blame you!

Footface Sat 04-May-13 17:27:40

Wow op, how awful for you. Fwiw you did the right thing in not apologising to a 14 year old who pushed a 7 year old, regardless of relationship.

You dh is to blame, and unfortunalty ss is the product of this. The whole I want my own way or else. My ss ( older now) could be like this and if he was told no he would just disappear sometimes for days. In my opinion to manipulate the next situation to go his way. His mum sounds similar to your ss aswell.

I honestly can't see a way forward for you unless your dh realises that he is first and foremost a dad not ss best friend.

The only bit of advice I can give is rather than say you are prioritising your dd over ss you could say you are putting both children first. After all its in ss best interests to have boundaries and guidance. It might just sound better to your dh

catsmother Sat 04-May-13 20:43:46

Everything that Petal's said - in both her posts. Your DH is being completely unfair - to both kids actually, albeit in different ways - and placing you in an impossible position. Under the circumstances - and until he's able to look at his son's behaviour objectively - I wouldn't be happy either about placing my 7 year old in a position where the possibility of being bullied would be brushed under the carpet by her own father - and worse, the victim would then apparently be told not to tell her own mother about it !!

As I suggested before, is there any possibility he'd agree to couples or family counselling ? I'm just thinking that while it's currently easy for him to dismiss your feelings and fears surrounding the situation as cliched "wicked stepmother" stuff - in order that he doesn't have to face the unpleasant reality of discipling his (spoilt brat) son, it would be a lot lot harder for him to persist in refusing to face up to the truth, and to face up to his responsibilities to do what's best for both children if a third party challenged him to explain why he acts the way he does and asked him to justify how it's somehow okay to ignore a 7 year old being picked on by a 14 year old in order to "keep the peace". Someone needs to lay it on a plate for him and effectively ask what the hell he's playing at - though obviously in rather more tactful terms than that. Obviously, if he feels he's behaving in the "right" here he's at total liberty to explain why but I can't think how anyone could justify his behaviour and attitude and I expect a skilled counsellor would call him on that, keep asking questions and so on, until maybe, hopefully, he really would be forced to be honest with himself and what damage he's doing to his daughter by consistently favouring his son.

Until this was sorted I'd not want her going anywhere without me - or at least with her dad when SS is also there. I'd be taking her out on special days myself to allay her understandable jealousy of the special days out her brother's enjoying.

I also think it's wrong that yor DH should be encouraging a split in the family which consists of her, SS and him against you (should she go with them). It's bad enough already that it's him and his son as a separate entity but should she go along too he's giving her the message that you are somehow in the wrong, and that it's okay for you to be dismissed and left out - on the say so of a 14 year old brat ! Him saying that you can't come out because you and SS have fallen out effectively says that you're the guilty party in the falling out - after all, brat SS gets rewarded with special trips etc while "naughty" (in effect) mummy gets "punished" by not being allowed to come. How effing disrespectful to you that is - another issue which would need to be challenged and discussed at counselling.

I wish I could meet him and slap him for you.

Petal02 Sat 04-May-13 21:15:47

Superb post Catsmother. Quest, you've not posted in 24 hours, can you come back and let us know you're ok?

Catsmother is usually the gold standard in sensible advice, and she's absolutely right about couples counselling. I don't know what else to suggest.

Petal02 Tue 07-May-13 09:15:05

OP - can you come back and update us?

quest12 Tue 07-May-13 22:37:09

Hi girls sorry for the delay, I didn't let her go the weekend but took her somewhere nice myself but dh was telling her what a good time him and dss had an she was saying I had a nice time too with mummy then he rang dss and told him to tell her wot a nice time they had she was drawing and didn't want to get on phone he practically forced her, when she told him again but I had a nice time with mummy he said oh do you want to make me an your brother cry by not coming out with us? I know he's 14 and you mite think it irrational but as its gone on mostly on the sly by him I know he will only want her to come out with him and his dad so he can upset her then deny all knowledge to dh and accuse her of being a moaner and ruining their day so he looks like an angel, I know he's still a kid but they can be manipulative

quest12 Tue 07-May-13 22:40:59

Oh and I forgot to say girls all of you thank you so much for all your advice and support if I had only dh I would think I was the evil east person on the planet thanks for making me see I'm right in protecting my daughter xxxxxxxxxxxx

catsmother Wed 08-May-13 03:53:27

I'm sorry to say it but I think the way DH is pressuring and in effect emotionally blackmailing your daughter is really bad. I just don't get his insistence on ramming it home that he and DSS have had such a great time - it's as if he's making her choose sides because it's clear he wants to "get" her out with them. Why ? ...... my gut feeling is that he wants to "prove" there's nothing wrong with DSS's behaviour and attitude, because then of course he doesn't have to tackle it. If DD goes out with them he'll probably turn round to you and say "see, there isn't a problem, she wouldn't be out with us if there was". Attempting to make a 7 year old feel guilty by saying she'd make them both "cry" is ridiculous and appalling - horribly manipulative and very very unfair. As if a 14 year old and a grown man would be crying anyway. But very wrong to put that level of guilt on the shoulders of such a young child.

I still think counselling is vital in a last attempt to try and thrash this out and get DH to take a good long hard look at himself. He's failed to protect DD from his son and is now trying to put her back into a position where if she was bullied again he'd almost certainly do nothing about it. I really don't know what else to suggest ..... sorry. But DH isn't helping matters AT ALL and there's no way on earth he should be putting pressure on DD the way he is.

allnewtaketwo Wed 08-May-13 09:20:19

Do you know what I thought reading your last post? Your DH himself sounds like a horrible nasty bully. No wonder he doesn't see anything wrong with his DS behaviour. I really think you need to take a step back and think about the future, as it sounds really bleak sad

Celticcat Wed 08-May-13 14:40:31

All new, I agree, wanted to point this out myself but felt I was projecting too much of my own situation...
Have to say that counseling is working for us, or should I better say it is working for me because my situation has improved. Dh has to examine his motives, his control issues, and yes, his bullying.
OP, when I'm cross with the dsc I have learned to step back and question dh behaviour and how he's contributing, and nine times out of ten ive got to admit its parental behavior at the root of,the problem.

Mindyourownbusiness Thu 09-May-13 10:58:47

I would say ok we will come with you next week. No fucking way would l allow a 13yr old boy dictate where l can or cannot go with my own family.
Sorry but this is just making me so angry.

catsmother Thu 09-May-13 11:23:40

Yes, agree with MYOB - if your DH wants his daughter to come along so desparately then you BOTH go. If SS doesn't like that - tough - he'll have to get used to it or not see his dad ..... and if it's the second, I can't somehow see that happening, so you'd go back to the square one of him and DH going out just the two of them.

I think you also need to tell your DH to shut the up with pressuring DD and rubbing it in by telling her what a fantastic time they've had. There's just no need for it - he can easily brush off questions from a child that age without going into detail. If he's insistent on seeing his son on his own then that's the least he can do - otherwise, as I think I said before, his whole approach ATM seems very much like you're being cast as the villain of the piece while SS gets treated to all sorts of nice things as a result of something which started off when he deliberately and spitefully got physical with his much younger sister.

Of course, what your DH should be doing is trying to get SS back into a normal contact routine by coming to your house (even though I appreciate you probably aren't that keen on seeing him). If SS refuses to come over then while I understand his dad still wants to see him he certainly shouldn't benefit any more than he'd normally do - so if "big" and/or expensive trips and/or activities aren't the norm DH should just take him to the local park, walk round the shops, go for a walk elsewhere, go to a free museum - or whatever - but there's no way this boy should be allowed to come to the conclusion that he's being rewarded for refusing to come to the house - a) by getting his dad all to himself (which is okay some of the time but not all the time) and b) getting special stuff laid on just for him, which kind of implies that he had no responsibility for what kicked this off. If your DH were prepared to do that and make this "outside" contact as mundane as possible maybe SS would soon get bored and suddenly normal contact wouldn't seem so bad after all. In addition, DH should also be making it clear to SS that refusing to come to his house is very rude and disrespectful, that although he loves him he has two children now who are equally deserving of his attention and that he (SS) shouldn't under any circumstances be getting physical with a much younger child - any grievances he has towards her should be brought to DH.

Having written all that however I have a nasty feeling that your DH wouldn't be up for that sort of approach at all. Especially the last sentence I wrote. I still think counselling would be worth a try or else where does this end ? But if nothing else, if DH remains insistent on doing the whole Disney thing with a boy who far from deserves it he should at least protect DD from it and not have her feel that she's missing out - or causing "upset" (FFS). If he won't do that for his daughter then I really think there's no hope - after all he's failed to protect her physically - now he seems not to be protecting her emotionally as well.

catsmother Thu 09-May-13 11:28:25

* shut the f**k up*

quest12 Tue 04-Jun-13 00:27:52

Ok so dh has been seeing dss alone since the fall out and my dh is a much happier child since he hasn't been visiting which even my dh has commented on. However dss seems bored by seeing only dh and wants to go home much earlier than he wud if he was here, so last wkend dh come home and said dss was distraught he hasn't seen dd an that whether she liked it or not she was seeing dss this wkend, she told him no and he said tough shit he's your brother, I told him in no uncertain terms that we are not all here to please dss and that she won't be going, he has told me he's leaving Friday and as he wants his contact to be with dd on a sat he will be picking her up the next day to take her out with dss. I know he doesn't want to leave problem is dss used to be with us overnight and whole of next day when my dh would sleep in and let me take them both swimming then when we got back he would make brekkie then go back to bed for a few hours so he's not used to being alone with dss can't really hold a conversation or even appear interested in anything anyone has to say so now dss wants to stay with him for 1 hour max before he's bored. He's had it easy I've entertained his son at the cost of my dd for years and now he's hoping that by taking my dd along against her will he will convince him to stay out for longer, and let me tell you he will but only at the expense of him making my dd look like a moaner and crier in front of dad when hw torments her. I'm not sure of my legal rights but I've told him that if he leaves he is fine to see her but not with dss I will go to court and fight if I need to that she is not subjected to more of his behaviour, would I have a leg to stand on so to speak?

deleted203 Tue 04-Jun-13 00:49:38

Don't let him take her. Tell him that if he chooses to leave on Friday he is welcome to. But he will not be dictating when and where he has contact with DD in this way. Tell him that you have major concerns about his parenting ability and that he is welcome to come and visit her in her own home, at a time convenient to you. Mention that you will be raising the issue of her safety with Social Services if he insists he is taking her out of the house.

Then go and see a solicitor.

Good luck.

quest12 Tue 04-Jun-13 00:56:45

Thanks sowornout I was thinking the same I was so worried bout dd but not about him leaving if that's his choice I deserve better, I know he's not the type to be investigating anything so I told him that if he took dd to see dss when she didn't want to go that it would jeopardise him seeing her if I explained to the court about the damaging way dss behaved, I would never in a million years be one of those mums who stopped contact but if dd was not happy when he was forcing her to see dss would there be anything I could do?

Petal02 Tue 04-Jun-13 09:31:09

Quest - I'm so sorry that it's come to this. Just wanted to send you some moral support.

Kaluki Tue 04-Jun-13 11:57:28

Oh Quest - how sad it has come to this.
Your DH is a disgrace. Using one child to appease the other despite the bullying.
Protect your DD at all costs and stand up for her rights.
Your 'D'H would be doing you all a favour if he left on Friday. Nasty bully.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 04-Jun-13 17:13:16

Quest I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry.

I must admit when I originally lurked read this thread I did think to myself 'what sort of regular child tortures a sibling from when they are a toddler?!'

But your partner is clearly a huge bully too. IMO the kid got off easy, I would have called a teenager who physically assaulted by much younger DD from when she was a toddler a fucking sociopath, not just evil.

Let him and your scummy partner play the wounded, misunderstood 'tough- guys-with-a-heart-of-gold if that's the vision they want to paint. Fuck your cowardly H. angry

Your daughter will always know while her dad was shite, her mum protected her no matter what the cost to herself. You're so brave, and you're teaching her that no man is allowed to hurt her, whether it be her brother (physically) or her own father (emotionally.)

Seething for you and DD. Your partner sounds almost unhinged. What normal person allows their child to physically abuse their sibling from when they were a toddler then emotionally blackmail her into saying she'll 'put up and shut up.' No normal parent does this.

Sorry, I better stop ranting or I won't stop! This makes me almost literally flush with rage. angry

Snazzywaitingforsummer Tue 04-Jun-13 20:48:35

Go and see a solicitor and say that you are worried for your DD's safety when she is with your H and the SS, and so you want to legally pursue him having supervised contact only or contact without SS there. It's totally unacceptable for your DD to be at risk like this and if your H is ot willing to back off he doesn't deserve contact with her.

Petal02 Thu 13-Jun-13 14:41:17

Quest - are you OK, can you update us?

babyhmummy01 Thu 13-Jun-13 17:42:31

Only just read this thread and all I can say is OMFG your dh is a lunatic.

You are absolutely doing the right thing, at 14 your Dss is more than aware of his actions and needs punishing. Disney dad needs a huge wake up call.

Did he leave quest? Is your dd ok and how are you doing? Hope you are ok and that u have sought legal advice.

Xx

quest12 Fri 14-Jun-13 00:09:44

Specialagenttattoedqueen reading you say how brave I am reduced me to tears, I've been full of feelings from my dh that I'm so cruel for keeping siblings apart even though my dd has told me she doesn't want to see dss, dh keeps saying I'm brainwashing her, I can't get it through to him in his Disney dad state that his son has brought this on not me, he left Friday he had dd sat for a few hours and although I didn't mean it to scare him off I told him that as dd didn't want to see dss if he forced her he would have trouble seeing her in future ( I would never stop him seeing her but have to try to protect her) he seen her on her own and life at home seems happier without him and his controlling ways around even dd has said this, he keeps saying as if I'm desparate for him to come back, il come back if you will let me take dd and dss out together once a week I think he's a bit peeved that I haven't caved in and agreed, does he not realise that if it comes to the happiness of my dd I will chose for him to be away from us all the time!!!!!
Thank you so much for all your replies and for making me feel I'm doing the right thing as my dh would have me thinking I'm the worst in the world while dss is a saint and dd apparently is too young to have a valid opinion. Xxxxxx

Snazzywaitingforsummer Fri 14-Jun-13 00:13:06

So glad you are protecting your DD and that she has said she is happier now things have changed. I imagine he is definitely peeved. He will have to learn to live with the new way of things - he's had it all his way for too long. Good for you.

Snazzywaitingforsummer Fri 14-Jun-13 00:13:45

Oh and you are not being 'cruel' - interesting he says that: projecting or what?

quest12 Fri 14-Jun-13 01:23:51

Yes Hun nice the way men can turn everything around to be our fault isn't it!!!!

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 14-Jun-13 05:39:33

Quest - You are brave. I cannot imagine how much it must hurt to know that your daughter's father, the man you love(d) allows her to be abused and abuses her himself. It takes enormous strength to hold out the way you are. I can't even begin to imagine how hurt you must be, not just for your DD but for yourself too.

Just for the record - I seriously doubt you scared that little monster. He was probably shocked and angry he got told off and put on his 'I'm a scared little boy' face, so please don't feel guilty.

May I ask what your husband is like towards you and DD in other aspects? It just seems like there's a real element of sexism here.

quest12 Tue 19-Nov-13 22:25:32

sorry to anyone who is new to my story and has to read right through to get it, but to anyone who replied to me last time i have a new concern to ask your opinion on, its been a year in feb since i last saw my stepson he is still refusing to come here yet my hubby sees him every sunday and where as before he would come here now sundays are treat days and dss and the hubby go off doing lovely things with dh spending lots of money treating him (as i have pointed out if he is doing this now where he didnt before dss will see he is getting more out of not seeing us as he gets treats every sunday from dad rather than just coming here but dh dont see it) so i said my daughter cant go with them and she didnt want to cause she remembered how bad dss treated her but after nearly a year and her only being 7 she is forgetting this and only hears dad talking about all the good time him and dss have and that she can come if she wants, so to protect her i said she couldnt go as im so scared and know if she could remember like me she wouldnt want to go so he is saying to her now its ok babes your mums nasty when your 16 its up to you and we will all have nice time together - dss will be 22 by then! firstly does he expect me to forgoe our family sundays together for the forseeable future and secondly is he going to turn my daughter against me?

Petal02 Tue 19-Nov-13 22:48:55

Quest, it's great to hear from you again. I'm just about to go to bed, but didn't want to read and run, and will reply properly in the morning. But just briefly - your husband's behaviour horrifies me: any man who will knowingly put his 7 yr old daughter at risk of trauma and/or injury, purely for the entertainment of his teenage son, should be on a register somewhere. It shocks the hell out of me.

TheMumsRush Tue 19-Nov-13 23:27:53

Give it three years and your dss will have better things to do than go to the fair with dad, and by the time dd is 16 dss will be leading his own life.

quest12 Tue 19-Nov-13 23:43:21

petal you were the main person who gave me good advice at the time i was hoping you would see my post and reply again, he left for 2 weeks but i had my dd saying how much she missed him and him saying how much he missed her and i caved in and said he could come back but as ive pointed out dss came here every wkend and we did do nice things but not every week but now dh feels he has to do something every week with him he has no reason to want to come back here because life is better for him getting treats every week. by the way i did say to my dh if you wasnt taking him out he prob wouldnt want to see you, he said ok then il prove he will, so he rang dss said ive got no money this week do you just want to go the park for a walk dss said yes ok, so he got off the phone all smug saying i told you he would come if i wasnt spending money - ten mins later dss rang - im too tired to go park can we leave it this week but i want to see on the movies so can we go next week when you have been paid. nowt worse than a disney dad!!!

allnewtaketwo Wed 20-Nov-13 07:24:59

OP I remember your story and am so sorry this is all still going on. I imagine you feel you are in a no win situation now. I too would be extremely reluctant to let DD go out with them for the day - there's a chance that, now that DSS is getting all these treats and 1 to 1 time with daddy, he will now see DD as even more of a threat if she comes out with them too. Sorry that probably doesn't help but I can really see why you don't want to let her go.

Apart from that the weekly treats and trips are ridiculous and your DH is behaving terribly. I have no idea what you can do about this though as I fail totally at trying to get my DH to see anything wrong with his parenting of DSSs.

What do you tend to do on Sundays? Is there any way you can turn Sundays into a special day where you and DD do nice things together. Doesn't have to be expensive - but maybe you could try to think of developing a nice routine that is unique to the two of you?

"Give it three years and your dss will have better things to do than go to the fair with dad, and by the time dd is 16 dss will be leading his own life"

On the other hand maybe not - my 18yo DSS is still adhering to the access rota and has absolutely nothing better to do

TheMumsRush Wed 20-Nov-13 07:52:16

What was dh reaction after dss phoned to say he was to tired to go to the park? Not so smug I'm sure! I've read through the post now and feel sorry that this is still going on for you. I think I'd be asking myself where I draw the line. Can you say that dd can go on these trips if you go too? Is that an option now? X

Kaluki Wed 20-Nov-13 11:39:39

Quest your DH sounds absolutely vile, petty and childish and his son is clearly a chip off the old block.
How dare he try to manipulate your dd like this? He sounds like a shit dad and a shit husband tbh.
I really don't know what the answer is - maybe suggest you come along too so you can keep a close eye on dd. If your stepson tries anything at least then you can whip dd away from him. That's not an ideal solution though.

TheWinterOne Wed 20-Nov-13 12:00:25

What an arse. Talk about favouritism and the poster child for Disney Dad parenting.

If he's taking your DSS out to do nice things does he do anything with your DD treat wise when DSS isn't there too?

He may use the excuse of feeling guilty because of splitting with ex's mum so really over compensating but I'd be swiftly pointing out that he is a dad of 2 and both children should be treated equally regardless. One on one separately or together. He can't be treating one child and not the other. Plenty of parents split up. He's not the first and he won't be the last.

Sounds like DSS now expects the Disney parenting and doesn't want it any other way. This tells me he has no actual respect or regard for his dad and just sees him as a cash cow. Is this the sort of relationship your DH wants with his son? Because frankly that isn't a relationship.

It sounds to me also that your DH doesn't treat you or his daughter with respect either. You deserve so much better than this vile cretin.

Petal02 Wed 20-Nov-13 12:15:01

I certainly don't think you should allow your daughter to join them if you can't guarantee her safety, so I agree with the poster who suggests that maybe you could go along too? Not ideal, but it may satisfy your daughter?

As for the Disney Sundays - your DH has really made a rod for his own back, hasn't he? I smirked when I read that DSS wasn't quite so interested in a walk in the park.......

If your DH is set on continuing with these Sunday charades, even if it does keep him apart from you and your daughter, then i don't know what to suggest. I'm not suggesting that you also start Disney Sundays for her, to 'compensate' but could this be a 'quality time' day for the two of you?

I realise that none of the above is tackling the root of your problem; we're just giving you suggestions for dealing with the symptoms. I never suggest people should leave their marriages, it's a huge thing to do, even in situations where it's the right choice - but assuming you want to stay with him, and unless he changes his stance, all you can do is 'work round' the problem.

Petal02 Mon 25-Nov-13 09:53:58

Quest - you've vanished again! Are you ok?

quest12 Fri 24-Jan-14 23:51:44

Sorry girls I'm self employed an can't afford the internet all the time I'm glad to see all your replies though, the situation is at the moment hubby is still seeing DSS on Sundays going crazy Disney daddy going somewhere nice and then for a meal and telling my dd about it when he gets home, obviously a child's memory is very short and she does ask why she can't go and when I remind her she says did he do that I can't remember, I've said she can go if I'm there to supervise but DSS says his mum says I'm not allowed to be around him because I'm not a nice person. I always thought she would take advantage of a situation like this as she had prev said to me she hated the thought that her son enjoyed coming here and had nice times with us when she doesn't do much with him and so must have thought she looked bad! So when dh has DSS I do nice things with her although I don't have as much money as him and delight in telling him that our daughter is happy just to go the park and ride her bike and doesn't need Disney parenting or cash spent on her. Although there was trouble over Christmas dh seen DSS at his mums Christmas eve DSS goes shopping with his older sister for presents and only got dh one not me or dd, dh came home Christmas eve saying DSS has been crying his eyes out he didn't see dd, I knew this was a lie, but I cud see it got to our dd, so when we went on Christmas day and he was in the kitchen with his dad I said to his mum in front of dd I believe DSS was terribly upset yesterday crying for ages, she said no he had a great time got his presents, I said did he mention me or dd and dd was there listening and she said no he was more interested in his presents didn't even ask about you two, when dh came in DC said dad DSS wasn't crying yesterday why did you lie and he was speechless so my dad does know he's trying to manipulate her. Also may I add our limit for Christmas has always been £250 DSS has known this and always got something accordingly, this year he asked for a Mac book pro. £800 knowing full well dh is in Disney mode and guess what he got it! Can't wait for his birthday as he knows dh will do anything to keep him on side now! I'm fighting a losing battle. Xxx. If you've read all this thanks nice to get it owt xxxx

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Sat 25-Jan-14 02:11:28

Sorry to say this but stick to your guns. Your dd so does not need to be round someone who is emotionally abusive and physically too, stepbrother or not.
I copped SS doing certain mean and nasty things which worried me tbh, these included silly one upmanship things like beating ds on video games making him cry, wrestling and going too far and hurting him, trying out wrestling moves like the tombstone which thankfully I caught before ds had his head cracked off the floor, and SS pushing ds in a trolley (in the seat) into walls hurting his back, and when he thought I wasn't looking he pushed his head sideways so he would bang his head on a display case.
It got to the point I said I didn't want him unsupervised round ds, then didn't improve so I suggested p take him to a hotel/travelodge which p wouldn't do, relented (he didn't hear any discussion so was unaware of hotel plan) and let him stay only to find out he had taken the extra step of beginning to abuse ds sexually, later still found out that he had often done 'things' of a sexual nature to ds, when ds hadn't told me what was happening it had escalated to quite serious abuse just short of penetration sad
Sorry for saying all this but since then I have been told clearly that older siblings use their power, influence and other things to abuse younger siblings not always sexually but still abuse .. Your DH seems unaware of the dynamics of his dc's relationship so do what I was advised to do and disengage. Let DH have contact separate it will at the very least make him do a share of the parenting.
As for Christmas budget, take however much DH spends on dss, add extra to make up for what dss mother spends, and demand your dd has equal amounts spent. Will soon shake his chain.
Oh and he should give you money to take dd out too, the same amount he intends to spend on dss.

lunar1 Sat 25-Jan-14 07:38:26

Your dh sounds like an absolute cunt, I think you need to go back to basics with this and LTB. You have gone from wanting to protect your dd, to point scoring. You shouldn't be having any conversations in front if her about this.

I know your intentions are good but she is being emotionally manipulated by you both. Take a step back and remind yourself what you want for your dd. Is it for you to prove to her and your H that he is a twat or is it to protect her from the situation going on around you.

davidtennantsmistress Sat 25-Jan-14 08:06:14

Agree with luna sorry but your h is a vile dis picante 'man' who blackmails and emotionally manipulated a child, a child, you child. As far as I'm concerned he's the lowest. He should be protecting his daughter.

You can argue at the time things were heated however I'm sorry but this is all your h's doing creating a two tier home. And I come at this with the view of having a ds's my own ds and a joint ds with dp.

I've not seen ds's since last summer when he spent four days and proved himself to be royally spoilt and disgusting to my eldest ds, dp at the time tried to defend dss, however he was told in no uncertain terms if the boys couldn't all get along nicely and my ds not be in tears every time dss wouldn't be welcome in mine and ds's home, especially as my ds idolises his older sibling.

Sometimes you have to do what's right and protect your kids, after all as the mother if we don't do it who will?

Thankfully my dp understands/s and did actually say to dss our house our rules if you don't like it it's fine I'll take you home and you won't stay, but you need to be strong for your dd.

I wonder if you'd put up with a friend clapping in your face and acting quite frankly like well a per-petulant child, because if it was me, until he learnt to treat me with respect I wouldn't have him in my home. It is in my eyes the ultimate in disrespect from a partner to do something like that.

bubblebabeuk Sat 25-Jan-14 08:12:38

LTB protect your DD.

ExcuseTypos Sat 25-Jan-14 08:45:55

Do you really want to be with a man who lies to you and his DD?

That would be the bottom line for me and it would be the end of the relationship. I'm sorry to say it but he's a horrible man.

Petal02 Sat 25-Jan-14 08:58:34

I've found this whole story quite disturbing right from the beginning.

Quest, I agree with the poster who suggests your DH is creating a two tier home. I'm also beginning to think that your DH dislikes you and your daughter quite intensely, otherwise why would he use his horrible son to antagonise you both in such a spiteful, twisted way.

I never like to sit at my keyboard and tell people to leave their marriages, it's an enormous thing to do regardless of the circumstances. But I do wonder what, if any, positives there are for you? This insidious situation must play on your mind 24/7.

Petal02 Sat 25-Jan-14 09:05:07

PS - we need advice from Catsmother here.

bluebell234 Sat 25-Jan-14 09:10:25

quest12,
yr dss tortured yr dd long time, maybe 6 yrs as far as I could understand from yr post. yr op is on feb 13.
after that yr dh and dss still playing games.
yr dh has no love respect for yr dd as he has for dss, he has none of it for you at all.
so its been 7 years now this has been going on. why don't you take any action?
yr dd suffering and then getting manipulated. it will get worse.

TheProsAndConsOfHitchhiking Sat 25-Jan-14 10:01:59

I have just read all of this and I am speechless op.

You are doing the right thing protecting your dd, Do not back down to your H emotional blackmail and bullying ways.

Sorry I do not have any other advice for You but I think Petal02 and others are doing a great job in that department.

FeelingTheFire Sat 25-Jan-14 10:54:45

I understand you may love this man (although, that would be seriously tested if it were me with the way he's been treating you both) but it's plain to see from your posts that he has no respect for either you or your DD. If you allow this continue, things are going to go from bad to worse. Before long you're going to start resenting the man. He's clearly treating your DD appallingly and doesn't see you as an equal partner in your marriage.

You seem to be going through hell being married to him. I'm in no way telling you to leave him but I'd go and make a list of pros and cons. Are there more happy times then bad? If you were to take your DD and leave for a couple of days for space - would he miss you as much as he does his son?

The way he's playing Disney with his son and allowing him to call the shots is a runaway disaster.

RandomMess Sat 25-Jan-14 11:05:00

Quest, honetly I think you need to leave him. He is treating you and your dd with no respect or decency AT ALL.

How is it okay to spend all that money on one dc at treat the other in such an awful way?

You are doing your dd no favours IMHO, dc always love their parents and want their approval at that age (if not forever) your dh isn't giving that to her. He is constantly reinforcing how worthless she is compared to his ds - I mean he actually rubs her nose in what he does with his ds - what cruel person does that????

Why the hell does he come home and rub your dd's nose in it? What spiteful, selfish, plain nasty thing to do. Have you pointed out to him how it feels from dd's point of view?

He sounds horrible and doesn't deserve your dd. I can see where his ds gets his nasty manipulative behaviour from.

annielouisa Sat 25-Jan-14 13:48:41

This cannot go on he is abusing both you and your DD. If I was you I would contact WA and discuss the things that had been happening. I would also advise you to find out about the Freedom Programme as DA is not just about women with black eyes or broken bones it is about being manipulated and worn down and lied to as well.

Do you want your DD to accept being treated with such disprespect and her personal safety being forgotten by a man who cannot parent properly.

catsmother Sat 25-Jan-14 20:59:20

Ha ha Petal !!

FWIW, my advice would be exactly the same as all of you who've posted since the OP updated.

This is a gobsmackingly awful and emotionally abusive situation - there's so much wrong with it I don't know where to start. IMO, I think his attitude and behaviour is emotionally abusive to you Quest (as well as to your DD) .... it's appalling and disgusting that he's using your daughter - his daughter too - to score points off you. It reads as if he's hurting her to get at you. How the fucking hell (excuse my language but I'm furious on your behalf) can he spend the sort of money he does on his son but thinks it's okay for his daughter to get so much less. I actually agree that of course good times can be had without spending very much at all but that's not the point is it ?

I just don't see how this situation can be sustained without your daughter becoming emotionally damaged - and she'll be getting more and more aware of the two-tier stance her own dad is happy to take as she gets older - and without you exploding with resentment, or, and I'm genuinely concerned about this .... succumbing to depression and/or a breakdown with the stress and strain of being treated with such contempt, and living with your daughter's mistreatment on a regular basis.

I think you should LTB too - sorry. Lunar's 1st sentence sums him up perfectly.

And if you're worried that once you split he'd take DD to see SS on his contact time, I think you have every right to place contact on a formal court ordered basis with it taking place in a contact centre (i.e. away from SS) - for the very good reason that he can't be trusted to protect DD from SS (or to tell the truth for that matter).

I know that splitting probably wouldn't change his attitude but at least DD wouldn't then have to live with someone she's getting to know sees her as a second class citizen.

haveyourselfashandy Sun 26-Jan-14 09:24:37

You need to leave this man.He will damage your dd and this will stay with her for the rest of her life.She is being taught that his ds is more important than she will ever be.I would leave him and ensure he had as little contact as possible.He's plating mind games with a child.Sick.

haveyourselfashandy Sun 26-Jan-14 09:25:38

Playing not plating!

quest12 Sun 26-Jan-14 18:33:48

His response to me saying stop saying things to her would be to say well I want her to know what your making her miss out on. He is oblivious to the fact that his son caused this situation with his behaviour and is carrying it on by refusing to see me. He thinks its all my fault and the son can do no wrong in his eyes. He's away working for a week left today if I can see the difference this week I may ask him to leave. Thank you for your constant support help and advice xxx

Petal02 Sun 26-Jan-14 21:10:04

Quest, please keep posting. You'll get a lot of support here, whatever you decide to do. Please don't disappear.

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Sun 26-Jan-14 22:45:26

I want her to know what you're making her miss out on

Nice passive aggressive EA shit there blush

davidtennantsmistress Mon 27-Jan-14 06:57:48

I concur vile man it's not for your dd to know at all, it's him to bloody points score and get one over on you. A prime example of a parent using the child as a weapon against the other parent. Vile man.

mikulkin Sat 01-Feb-14 16:59:20

He is 15 for God's sake, he was 14 when he did what he did. You are punishing both him and your DD for life because of the mistakes he did at 14. Why don't you give him a benefit of doubt and let your dd to go once. If he is not nice to her she will tell and you can stop contact again. But you can't hold a grudge against a boy for the rest of your life. He is not adult and it is not like he endangered her in the past, he bullied her, that happens in school too. Would you stop her from going to school or to any public place for the rest of her life?
Let your dd make this choice. I think you got carried away in your fight with DH and forgot what this was about.

catsmother Sat 01-Feb-14 20:51:28

If you read the whole thread Mikulkin you will see that there has been a long established pattern of bullying behaviour from the older child towards the youngest. This is not one single incident.

In addition, the older child is never disciplined - no matter what he does - so feels able, and inappropriately, given both his age and the fact that he is not the most important member of the family, to effectively lay down the law and "refuse" to come to the OP's house unless she "apologises".

The boy's father has made no attempt to explain to him that this is unreasonable. In fact he's done quite the opposite for around a year now - rewarding a long history of spiteful behaviour with expensive presents and flash days out. By doing this he's sending the message to his son that he (the dad) thinks his wife was in the wrong for having the temerity to tell him off when he was particularly nasty (and it sounded long overdue). So the dad has undermined his partner, and basically given him no reason to come back to the house and have a normal relationship because, most 15 year olds would find it far more attractive to keep playing the drama queen when they're rewarded so strongly.

The OP has not banned this child from her house BTW. She simply and quite understandably doesn't want to place her DD in a situation without her where again and again she's been subjected to nastiness by a much older and bigger child. Past experience has shown that very sadly, she can't trust her DH - DD's own father - to deal with any such behaviour from the older child in an effective manner .... where the bully would be disciplined, and where the younger child would therefore actually feel like her own dad gave a flying fuck about her wellbeing.

Of course, I concede that maybe the SS won't be sly and nasty again ..... but good grief, in the OP's shoes would you really take that risk in the light of such a significant back history ? Why the hell should she expose her daughter to that risk, knowing that her DH will almost certainly turn a blind eye, make light, and quite probably hide any such incident from the OP ?

"If he is not nice to her she will tell and you can stop contact again" ...... riiiiggghhhtt, so it doesn't matter if SS thumps her because hey, she can stop contact again and all will be right with the world. FFS - how will that little girl feel if her brother hurts her and her own mum hasn't protected her by sending her into that situation. Plus of course her dad won't give a damn because he's too scared to rock the boat with the boy-who-can-do-no-wrong-no-matter-what-he does.

Let's not forget what a nasty shit the dad here seems to be too. He's quite happy to mess with his own daughter's mind - deliberately upsetting her and goading her by repeatedly telling her what a fantastic time he's had with SS. Apparently he does this so the DD "knows" how unfair her mum's being. In other words, he's using his daughter as a weapon to get at his wife. Regardless of the psychological damage he could be causing. He's pathetic and irresponsible.

And I should imagine that if DD was being bullied at school, for years, where no-one was taking it seriously, and the bully was never disciplined, and the school appeared not to care, that the OP probably would keep her away from such a school ..... just as many poor parents have had to do when their concerns weren't being addressed properly (this topic crops up on these boards quite regularly).

I personally think the OP should LTB, and insist that future contact between dad and DD takes place under supervision because he simply cannot be trusted to look after both his children with equal care and concern. In effect, it reads to me that he's prepared to sacrifice the well being and safety of his younger child in order to keep the older one "sweet".

quest12 Sat 01-Feb-14 21:04:18

Thank you cats mother and petal for your support over the long time this has been going on, if I post for advice you 2 are always there and I appreciate it more than words can say. Cats mother as for the 2 tier system you say about this is his doing I wud be happy for him to see his ds then come home and say nowt to add and she wudnt know what they had been doing but he persists and I think is trying to get dd in a position where she resents me from stopping her doing things. Mikulin I have always said DSS is wlcome Here and if I can go out with them me and dd will come it is him who refuses to be around me as he knows he won't be able to get away with his behaviour and god forbid runs the risk of dh seeing what he's capable of. Once again petal and cats mother thank you for all your support and everyone else who has posted and made me feel like I am doing the right thing for my dad. Xxx

quest12 Sat 01-Feb-14 21:20:16

Cats mother u posted the same time as me thanks for explaining the situation, when I read what you have written if it was anyone else I would instantly say the dh was in the wrong but my dh so tries to drum it into me I'm the guilty party. Let's put it this way if DSS wanted to behave nicely around dd and not try to make himself look like an angel he would come down, the fact he's got away with it for years and now he's been caught red handed means he will be under constant watch and won't be able to keep up the nice act and so runs the risk of being caught in the act by me and dh at the same time, dh would not be able to brush it under the carpet then and Disney child status along with all the treats wud be lost. He has no incentive to come see me and dd again he is getting treats every week and more expensive presents for bdays and Christmas, what 15 year old would give that up to see his stepmum and sister? Xxx

davidtennantsmistress Mon 03-Feb-14 06:36:25

Quest that's exactly what he's doing, and so far it's working. Please don't let it come between you and your dd.

Kaluki Mon 03-Feb-14 10:50:59

Mikulkin - would you seriously send your young dd off out for the day knowing she could be physically hurt by an older child and not protected by the adult in charge?
Quest - I agree with Catsmother and Petal. Your DH is disgusting and abusive to you and your DD and I can't believe you haven't kicked his sorry arse out of your life!!

Petal02 Mon 03-Feb-14 11:37:01

Would you seriously send your young daughter off out for the day knowing she could be physically hurt by an older child, and not protected by the adult in charge?

This is made a million times worse when you remember that the “adult in charge” is the girl’s father. This whole story has shocked me – to think that a man would be happy to watch his small daughter come to harm, just to keep the perpetrator sweet?

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Mon 03-Feb-14 17:22:48

By mikulkins thinking I should give it a couple of years and let my SS come and visit again, after all he was 'only' 12 when he decided to sexually abuse my ds, if I wait then forgive him he can come back into ds life stronger and more manipulative maybe more able to silence ds with threats, maybe he could then continue his abuse of my son...
Or maybe I could invite exp round as I'm sure even though he used to beat and rape me it'd be really nice to have his company.

Of course both of the above are said sarcastically

Get real mikulkins how stupid does your comment sound?

mikulkin Tue 04-Feb-14 00:08:34

Things, sexual abuse is completely different story so your comparison is out of place here. This is about pushing, picking on which could happen between any siblings, sexual abuse is not smth which could or should happen between siblings. I also do not appreciate people being rude, and I think you are being rude by saying that my comment sounds stupid.

Kaluki, if I believed that my dd wouldn't be protected by her father I wouldn't be with this man in the first place. Op is still with her husband isn't she?

Petal, thanks for a very good comment - I think OP and people who support her keep not seeing elephant in the room. This is not a problem between OP's DSS and DD this is a problem between OP and her DH. If op is scared for her dd knowing her DH will be with them then how can she live with such a man? If the tormenting is so bad that dd shouldn't go there shouldn't her father be concerned too? If he doesn't it sound like he either truly believes the communication will be fine or he is horrible father. If it is the former then I stand by my point that dd should be able to meet with her half sibling and start from clean sheet. If it is the latter then why on earth op is still with her DH and why do you all suggest she doesn't send dd instead of explaining to her that she shouldn't live with the man who allows his DD being tormented?
Have any of you considered how confused poor DD is? Her DF says she should go, she doesn't remember anything bad and her DM wouldn't let her? Give her a couple of years and she will ask her DM:" how could you not let me go if my DF is there? If anything goes wrong he would protect me" what are you going to answer then, OP?

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Tue 04-Feb-14 01:05:25

My son still asks to see his brother though does that mean as a parent you should not make decisions that will keep your children safe regardless of how they feel or what they want?

Physical abuse is the same as sexual abuse to a child especially with the age gap like this situation and my own. It's not split into sexual physical and emotional - it's about the older sibling enforcing power and control over the younger child.
The op has a right to protect her dc how she sees fit and answer any questions about it later in life when her child is old enough to understand her reasons.

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Tue 04-Feb-14 01:06:05

I apologise for saying the word stupid btw that was out of order

Petal02 Tue 04-Feb-14 08:40:11

Mikulkin - we DO see the elephant in the room, and we DO realise that this is ultimately a problem between the OP and her DH. However, it's up to the OP to decide whether or not she wants to leave her DH - and we all accept that leaving a marriage is an enormous thing to do - but if she decides to stay, then we need to help her live with the situation.

Kaluki Tue 04-Feb-14 11:02:52

Mikulkin if you read my post at 1050 yesterday you will see that I agree with you that OP's biggest problem is her DH and I can't imagine why she is still with him after all this. But like Petal says leaving a marriage is a huge decision, its easy for us to say LTB but this is someone's whole life here.
Until OP is ready to leave him she has to protect her DD at all costs. Surely you agree with that?

catsmother Tue 04-Feb-14 14:58:59

.

catsmother Tue 04-Feb-14 15:00:53

I'm not so sure it's an elephant as much as a mammoth. I too have referred - at least 4 times I think - during the course of this almost a year old thread to the OP leaving her DH (or that should probably be H). And agree that if the father was objective and fair and treated both his children equally (with age appropriate allowances of course) then it probably wouldn't matter too much if SS continued to be a nasty little bully .... in fact, he'd be very stupid to do so if he had the sort of father who took no nonsense and disciplined as and when required because any attempt at nastiness would be immediately squashed before any damage was done to DD and SS would come off worse. If the father was on the ball and fair he'd acknowledge what his son was like and he'd keep a beady eye on what was going on - hence OP wouldn't have to feel frightened about allowing H to take both his son and daughter without her as she'd be able to trust him to do the right thing.

So yes - totally agree this is mainly an H problem as opposed to the SS per se. Having said that, although he is young, I don't think a 14/15 year old should be absolved of all personal responsibility when it comes to behaving appropriately towards a much smaller and younger child. Quite obviously he does it now because his bloody father lets him get away with it without a murmur, and quite possibly gets a kick out of the "power" this gives him, as well as reinforcing (each time he's nasty and there are no repercussions) that he's daddy's "favourite". However .... I'd question if he does behave the same way to all other younger kids he comes across - like in school, or at activities ? I bet he doesn't, because a) he knows it's wrong and b) it wouldn't be stood for. In that case, he makes a conscious choice when he's foul to DD and I personally think he should bear some of the responsibility for that regardless of the fact his pathetic father condones it. In other words, jut because you can get away with doing something wrong, doesn't make it right. So I quite understand why the OP feels so resentful and hostile towards the SS.

Though remember she hasn't banned him from the house, and, she has said that she's willing to bring DD along on these days out herself - but the boy has vetoed that .... which of course, shouldn't bloody well be his call.

I've said before that I think now - in view of the length of time this has been going on - and the H's entrenched position, that the OP hasn't got a chance he's going to come round and parent his older child properly. He's not even parenting the younger one properly as he's continually shit-stirring - goading the little girl with tales of fancy days out and painting mummy as the bad guy. It must make the DD feel very stressed and torn between both her parents and he's putting her in a completely unfair and unacceptable position. What sort of decent parent treats their children so differently - and what sort of decent parent badmouths the other parent to a child (irrespective of whether they're justified in feeling angry) ?

I feel very strongly the OP should start planning a split - for her daughter's sake as well as her own. I fear she could easily end up having a nervous breakdown with the stress of this situation and the appalling way her H is treating her. However, regardless of what us lot of strangers think, actually splitting from someone is rarely simple and these days, with the cost of living and benefit cuts etc there's no escaping the fact that it's not an easy thing to embark upon and many women in the OP's position would have to make long term plans before they could actually do the deed. Whether we think that's right or wrong, until the OP actually leaves him - or tells him to piss off - then good god of course she has to protect her daughter because the child's own father is absolutely blind to any harm she may come to if it involves the untouchable older child. I suspect also that at the back of the OP's mind is how things would pan out if they did split and DD had contact with her dad ..... clearly, he couldn't be trusted to see the two children separately, and therefore, there's a significant risk that DD may be hurt again. It is possible to arrange supervised contact, but again, this isn't something you can just conjure up at will and the OP would need to take legal advice (IMO) in regard to that particular issue before feeling confident enough to split - when she'd be less able to protect DD from seeing SS than she is now.

catsmother Tue 04-Feb-14 15:01:32

(continued ....)

OP - if you're still reading, if nothing else, I really do think you need to start seriously investigating how to split from this "man". E.g. housing implications, money issues, contact issues and so on .... it does no harm to arm yourself with knowledge after all. I just can't see this ever working out or getting back on an even keel TBH .... even if SS disappeared off the face of the earth tomorrow (which is unlikely) you'd still be left with the sure and certain knowledge that your H has allowed a child to call the shots in so many ways, that he's been prepared to completely favour SS over DD, that he's been emotionally abusive to your daughter (IMO) as well as to you, that he's undermined your position as supposedly equal adult in your household and so on. I mean, how would you ever be able to forget about all of that and carry on living a "normal" life with him ? I really don't think you could - and I think the resentment would just continue to fester ever more. Please think very seriously about what your next steps should be. I agree totally that you're doing the right thing in protecting DD from the risk of physical harm but I also think that while you stay with H she's being exposed to emotional harm as well. I can't pretend that would completely disappear if you split from him but it would surely be minimised as she wouldn't see him so often.

I really do think it'd feel like a huge weight had been lifted from both of you if you split. Sure, DD will miss her dad and won't completely understand why sad to say - but as parents we sometimes have to do stuff for our kids that we know is the best thing for them even if they don't realise it just yet.

quest12 Wed 05-Feb-14 00:06:10

Thanks girls I can't stress how much reading your comments make me feel like I'm doing the best for my dd and what a nice feeling that gives me as well as cats other and petal I would also like to thank kabuki for your advice. Here is the problem I bought my house a year before I met dh, in the years I've been with him it has gone up 20k in value if I had to pay him anything in the divorce I Wundt be able to stay here, although in that time I have helped thru doing all his admin as well as working full time myself turn his business into a lucrative one he often says I'm his rock as he cudnt do without me, I spend at least 2 hours per nite after dd has gone to bed typing up quotes, invoices and preparing his tax stuff. I would honestly say 6 nights a week he is a great father to dd it's as if when dss isn't around he isn't mentioned now ( it was different when he would see me as I would insist dh picked him up for tea or if we were going anywhere) but when he sees dss I think he realises they don't have a great time together even if they do do something nice as me and dd are not there to make it fun (dh is not the best at creating a fun environment). Take last week for example he took dss bowling, he was back in an hour, I said your quick - he said dss was bored asked to go home. If me and dd were there he would have been out for at least a few hours, in a way I think he sees taking dd as a way to keep his son entertained for a bit longer but I'm not prepared to let her be with dss without me there. IMHO you don't choose which family members you see and if dss doesn't want me there then they must accept ds won't be. We are not a step family so I don't expect my dd to have a life I'm not involved in. Unless I split from her dad xxxxx

quest12 Wed 05-Feb-14 00:07:25

Kaluki not kabuki sorry silly spell check xx

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