DSD's Mother hit her and we've had to call Police...

[ConfusionAndDelay]

I wonder if anyone can help me? I've name changed for privacy.

My step daughter (aged 7) arrived here yesterday afternoon and told me her Mother had hit her hard across the back that morning. My husband got home from work at I told him and he spoke to step daughter about it. She had been hit across the back and there were 3 red adult hand sized finger marks (albeit faint but noticeable) where she said she had hit her.

We called Police, they came out and took statement, they saw the finger marks and they spoke to step daughter who confirmed again what had happened. She has a good vocabulary, was quite capable of explaining what happened clearly and concisely.

Social worker and Police turned up unexpected at our door yesterday afternoon (about 30 hrs after it happened) and want to speak to her. They chat to her for around half hour and leave. They didn't tell me what she said but before they left they asked me to confirm when she was due to go back to her Mother (Thursday) and that her Mother doesn't have any other kids that are currently in her care. They said they would be in touch before Thursday.

We understand it's a relatively minor injury, the mark had gone by the time the Social Worker looked, but we have photos from yesterday afternoon and the Police saw. But it's obviously not right to hit a child across the back so hard that your finger marks can be seen 8 hours later!

Something isn't right with her mum. She's been increasingly complaining about being smacked a lot, her mum is angry and step daughter says she cries a lot. She tells her all her problems and makes her feel guilty and worry about them (money, being lonely etc) She's only 7! She said she's been shouting more, swearing and her too. Step daughter has been stopped attending her out of school hobby which she loves, her mum and started working part time instead of full time and she seems unable to get up and get her to school on time, sends her to school when she has been sick, doesn't engage with school much, refuses to do any homework etc. She's had serious MH problems before, attempted suicide, severe depression etc (all documented and spanning a number of years) and my husband feels she could be heading that way again (from what he knows of her).

What do we do? Are we allowed to just keep her here until the Police and Child Services get back to us as it will breach the Court Order. Honestly, we don't have £200 spare to make the application to Court that I assume we should really make in order to get what I believe is an Interim Order but if it's essential then we would have to find the money.

Husband doesn't want to take daughter away from her mum, just take steps to keep step daughter safe whilst her mum is encouraged to get help.

[brdgrl]

I don't know how it works and have no experience with shared residency etc - I hope someone will be along to advise you.

but I think I would be very reluctant to return a child to the home where that had happened!

Is it possible/feasible for your DH to ring up the mum and 'offer' to keep her longer?

[ConfusionAndDelay]

I guess he could. She would know why though as the Police have said they are going to pay her a visit today or tomorrow and I'm not sure if the Police would say it was a bad idea to contact her. He would never usually contact her to change the days we have her - days and hours even are all as per the Court Order.

Ultimately, it's a "minor" assault (common assault the Police said) but could easily have been worse. It's unlikely she will be prosecuted for it but DH wants the Social Worker to look into the whole matter - medical records to check whether she is currently mentally capable of looking after a 7 year old as all the signs are there that she isn't.

Do you know if DH would look bad at Court or be deemed as in breach of the Order if we kept her even if the Police call tomorrow and say they aren't prosecuting?

[brdgrl]

I'm sorry, OP, I just don't know. I'd like to think that even if she were not charged, a court would look at the police report (can you ask for a copy?) and take that into account - but honestly, I don't know.

[SisterMcKenzie]

Hmm interesting...

DH's ex made false allegations that DH had tried to punch DSD. Social workers told the ex to stop contact regardless of the contact order.

I'm surprised they have not told you to stop contact while this is properly investigated.

In our case it was 3 months before we saw DSD and 6 months before it was proved the allegations were groundless. Two sets of social workers, two sets of police and numerous court appearances were involved.

Maybe it's one rule for dads accused of violence and a different rule for mothers

[ICanHearYou]

I think the OP is saying that Mother is RP and they have contact with the child, so it would be a different situation (and nothing to do with sex of the parent)

They said they would be in touch before Thursday, so I would wait and see what they say.

[SisterMcKenzie]

Also OP your was your DSD interviewed alone?
An appropriate adult should have been present during interviews.

[SisterMcKenzie]

Icanhearyou...
Child protection should focus on the child, regardless of the residential status of the accused parent.

[Pantone363]

Did your Dsd say why she was hit? (Not excusing it at all!)

It sounds like her DM is having a tough time. She may well be suffering with MH issues but lots of mothers do and parent their DC fine.

Have you offered in the past to take up the slack with regards to more contact time?

[ConfusionAndDelay]

She was hit for being naughty, she was having a tantrum at home before school and she laying on the floor screaming and her mum hit her across the back. DSD admits readily that she was being naughty and says it wasn't a "normal" smack for being naughty it was a hard smack on her back.

Neither parent is Resident Parent I guess as we share care. The Court Order is followed to the letter and DSD doesn't ever come here or go there outside of the Court Ordered times. DH has offered many times to "help out" but his ex won't let DSD come here any extra days or nights as it would reduce his maintenance calculation via CSA. DH has explained that he wouldn't tell them and would pay the same but she says she can't trust him (he's never missed a payment) and now she's not working full time she needs the money.

I for think it was considered a formal interview with DSD. They took her into the garden for a chat (police and a social worker) and we were not told what she had said. It's possible she got scared and said her mum didn't do it but I don't think so given I was quizzed afterwards about when she was due to go back to her mum and whether her mum has any other children in her care. Who knows. DSD is worried she has got her mum into trouble and is scared she will tell her off.

[WakeyCakey45]

Your DH is very unlikely to be penalised by the court under these circumstances for breaking any order that is in place. It would only go before a court if SS mum applied for enforcement, in any event.

However, SocServ may well consider your DH irresponsible if he returns his DD to her mother if he believes there is a risk. He needs to follow SocServ advice.

I suggest you keep in daily contact with SocServ, ensure that they know about the court order and ask what they recommend. If they are recommending that your DH take more of the day to day care, even in the short term, then an application for an emergency order is possible.

[ICanHearYou]

sister you are right, it SHOULD

that doesn't mean it DOES though.

I know of children left in awful conditions because 'staying with the mother' is paramount despite the father providing excellent care.

[Alita7]

Get social services to give you advice,then if you breach your court order you can say it was under the advice of them.

If you need any advice on other aspects of the situation or just want to vent about it then feel free to pm as we had a situation not too disimilar with dsd (but didn't have issues surrounding court orders and her injuries were noticed by the school during her mums time so we weren't reporting it).

[wheresthelight]

Social worker will have been deemed the suitable adult to sit in with the child being interviewed and this is very common practice where one parent is accusing the other as it means both social services and the police can be sure that no coercion is happening.

I would contact either the police or the social workers involved and ask for their advice. Make sure that you take down full name and record date and time and if it's the police make sure you get their badge number as proof for court should the worst happen.

If it was me however I wouldn't be worrying about the court order, my focus would be the child.

[edamsavestheday]

yy what wheresthelight said. Don't send her back but do get advice from SS/police to back you up.

We had a similar situation with my half-sister - awful, think my stepmother was having a complete breakdown. She was certainly suffering from delusions (the Mafia were out to get her, amongst other things) and hitting my little sister, having awful, frightening rows, not washing her hair and so on.

At that time none of the MH professionals would recognise it as a child protection issue, nor talk to our father (my sister and I) who was divorced from my stepmother. Eventually little sis had to force the issue by running away from home (to our other sister). Don't let it get that far.

[ConfusionAndDelay]

Thank you. Social worker called today and said she's spoken to DSD's mum who admitted that she smacked her and that she uses smacking as a last resort only. However she said they had an urgent meeting with Police and have decided a section 47 is necessary.

Sociak either is visiting our house Thursday- I'm quite nervous as I know DSD's mum would have said some rubbish (untrue) things about me and I feel like my home and our parenting is being judged :(

[wheresthelight]

Section 47 is basically abh so I should think the social worker will be discussing residency for dsd and supervised access for her mum

Don't worry about your parenting they will see it for what it is, deflection from her behaviour

[WakeyCakey45]

wheresthelight I assumed the OP meant a Sec47 Social Services Enquiry not Sec47 of the Offences Against the Person Act?

There are thresholds that trigger a Sec47 Soc Services enquiry - it may be that something the mother said or did when she was visited resulted in these being crossed, hence it has been triggered; for instance, in my area, non-cooperation with SocServices would trigger a Sec47 assessment, as well as various types of allegation and injury.

[ConfusionAndDelay]

Yes it's section 47 Child Services. Social worker states she won't be asking DSD about this particular smack as the Police are dealing with it. We are just a bit lost and confused. Social worker won't tell us what DSD said in her 30 min chat or what her mum as said- so we are in the dark really.

[ConfusionAndDelay]

Wakes cakey- would that threshold be crossed by her mother admitting to smacking her sometimes as a "last resort"?

[Selks]

Hi I'm a social worker. You need to speak to social services to clarify the temporary residence issues, as there is now a S47 child protection enquiry in place. They may well want DSD to remain with you, and if they feel this then this would probably over-rule the court order as it is a safeguarding issue. But you do need to be speaking to ss - don't let DSD go back to her mothers without doing so because ss could feel that you are placing her at risk.

Speak to the social worker that the case is allocated to, within working hours, or their team manager, rather than an out-of-hours social worker who does not know your case.

[Alita7]

Confusion, social are quite used to parents who are accused trying the 'but they do x y and z' card. They will look at it in two ways, that If they can't see an issue and the child when asked about you doesn't say anything to cause concern, then it's probably not true and regardless, if she had concerns why has she not raised them before?

If she's admitted to smacking as a last resort then they will not be saying oh that's ok then. They will be looking at the marks and will have medical opinions which presumably will come to the conclusion that if a mark was left that long then the smacking is not acceptable. They will investigate any other issues you have and then they will in the long term see if they can help the mother to change and what the child wants. If they feel she won't change (she won't attend anger management or no improvement in other issues is seen) then they will probably look at placing her with you if she makes a big effort to change then they will attempt to keep her with her mum unless she's really protesting against that.

[wheresthelight]

Ah I see. However the rest of my post applies so make sure you speak to the social worker and ask the specific questions of

1. do we need to keep dsd here with us or return her to her mum
   
2. if we are to keep her here what access arrangements need to be in place for mum ie supervision via a family member or contact centre

[WakeyCakey45]

confusion Your local council should publish their thresholds online; if you do a google search for "section 47 investigation threshholds " you should find them.

[ConfusionAndDelay]

DH called the social worker. She said se can't say whether or not he should send her back to her mums as per the court order or not as there's an I going police investigation. She said after the Section 47 has been completed they will make a report and provide a copy to both parents.

Social Worker said she can't disclose the conversation DSD had with the Social worker the other day. Does this mean she's said something about my DH or me? (we have never hit her or anything bad) just can't work out why else they won't tell him if it's just accusations about her mum. We had a chat afterwards to make sure she wasn't upset and that she did a good thing telling the truth etc and she said she told police and social worker her mum "whacks" her hard all the time and she shouts and screams and says bad words to her" Wouldn't they be able to disclose that to us?

[ICanHearYou]

They have to make sure nothing gets back to the mother, so its best to just keep it all private.

In your position I would absolutely not be sending the child back on Thursday, the poor kid needs to feel someone is on her side.

I can't see how any court in the land would disagree with that.