Is it unreasonable to keep DD apart from DSD...

[notsonambysm]

Hello lovely andnotsolovely stepmothers!

So most of you know my tale of woe but in a nutshell; DSD, 13, has been being alienated from DH over the past few years and things blew up at Christmas. Contact went from 50/50 to one day a week if that. Then 7 weeks ago, DH punished DSD for running up a huge phone bill (by enforcing no Iphone internet access for a month) and she finally voted with her feet with the support of her mother. (and said some utterly vile things about all of us e.g calling her Dad a little pussy and being cruel about his apperence in a really personal way)

Since Oct time last year she has been increasingly cruel to my daughter (6) who has loved her like a sister for the past 4.5 years (i.e. as long as she can remember) and dd has really struggled with this and ultimately finally "losing" dsd. She thought it was something she had done and her fault, despite me telling her otherwise. She has become very clingy, particulalrly at bedtime, and although she's stopped talking about DSD now, I find a lot of hidden drawings and stories that she has done for her so she is obviously hurting.

We all feel like we're greiving in different ways. It's been really hard. A week or so ago DH and I were on the brink of seperating because he was so down about things he was taking it out on me and withdrawing from me. I told him that if he didn't start concentrating on what he does have then he'd lose everybody and since then we have really turned a corner. Following this, the week before last, DH took it upon himself to go to DSD's mums house to talk to them both. DSD was vile and called him horrible names and said she would never see him again. But followed up late that night with a text to say he was still her dad and she wanted to work things out . Great news!! Dh was delighted and I was very happy for him.

A week on (last weekend) he took her for breakfast and he reported that she was chatty and pleasant and they had a lovely time. They agreed that he would see her for a few hours each weekend to start with and see how things went.

Then on Wednesday he told me that as my mum and family was visiting us this Sunday, he was going to ask DSD if she wants to come round. My dd will be at home, plus my sister and her little boy, my mum and her boyfriend etc. I (kindly but assertively) told him that I am not putting my DD in the line of fire for being hurt again and want some kind of assurance (as much as you can with things like this) That she's not going to disappear again the next time things don't go her way. An apology would be nice, but in the absense of that - a steady history of contact and normal reactions to discipline etc. I'm happy for her to stay here, just not when DD is around.

I thought that is was sensible and reasonable to want to protect my dd. I also thought it was far too soon for his and DSD's fragile relationship to be placed under the microscope/ limelight like that. They need to nurture it and get to know each other again. I made it clear that I wasn't just thinking of my DD but also his.

Anyway, he said he would "go along with it" if that's how I feel but only if it was a few weeks. And he wasn't happy about it. He looked really hurt like I was pissing on his fire in terms of the positive developmenets that have happened recently which obvously I don't want to do.

What do you guys think? Am I being cruel to him? Am I over thinking it? Or am I right to protect my DD? Maybe because DSD isn't my own child, I'm not able to think the est of her like he is. I'm just sick of my DD being trampled all over.

There is I'm sure an element of my own upset too. I have been very badly effected by "losing" my DSD. I am also still angry at her. There has been no apology for what she has done and she is still denying that her behaviour is wrong in any way. I get the vibe that she is "forgiving" her Dad rather than seeing that she has been unreasonable and wanting to make amends. And also, seeing as she sighted me in a lot of her reasons for how she hates coming here, I'm not happy to sweep it under the rug just so we can play happy families.

In short - I think that DH is putting a plaster over the problems and running way before he can walk.

But if I say that I will be faced with the expession of someone who's puppy has been shot.

What should I do?

[colditz]

Firstly, she's thirteen, stop ascribing adult emotions and capabilities to her. She may be adult sized, she may have an adult vocabulary, but she is a child. This could be half of the problem .... You are expecting adult behaviour and your sd is unable to give it to you.

Secondly, yes, take your daughter out for the day, she doesn't need to build her hopes upon the whims of a child and you shouldn't allow that to happen. It would be damaging.

[PooPooInMyToes]

In an ideal world she would be made to apologise for the nasty things she said but that would probably need to be enforced by her mother if your husband wasn't to risk losing her again. That sounds unlikely.

How big was the phone bill? Im wondering if we our husband was a bit harsh with the punishment, not that it excuses her behaviour.

I agree that perhaps they should work on their relationship alone but i don't think you should stop her coming to the house.

What did she do that was cruel to your daughter? I would let her come but watch your daughter to make sure she's not being picked on and also prepare her that its just a visit and you're not sure how its going to work out long term.

Its bloody difficult though and i don't think there is an easy answer.

[colditz]

As for normal reactions to discipline ... She did give you a normal reaction to discipline. Teenagers are like toddlers. They throw screaming tantrums and declare that they hate you. That doesn't mean that we give up on them.

[PooPooInMyToes]

YOUR husband!

[edam]

Agree with Colditz that horrible as her behaviour may have been, you are expecting too much from her - judging her as if she's an adult when she is not.

In what way has she been 'cruel' to your daughter?

Coming over when there's a big family get together may be a tad stressful - or it could take the attention off her and the heat out of the situation.

[notsonambysm]

Thanks guys. No Coldtitz, a normal reaction would be "For godsake dad I can't beleive you're doing this to me, I hate you! Sob sob flounce flounce sob"

Not what we got which was an 8 minute ditribe on voicemail stating calmly that he was a little pussy with a hunchback and a filthy beard who she has always despised her whole life becaus ehe is such a pathetic loser who has no friends. No one loves him and she has never lovedhim or felt anything for him etc etc. It was the weirdest eeariest thing I have ever heard and certainly not normal Then she disappeared for 6 weeks... I had some big barnies with my dad and flounced and sobbed and screamed and disappeared to my friends house for a day but i didn't ever disown him and his entire family, my stepsister etc etc.

The phone bill was £69 and it is normally £20. She has been told often about her internet usage and picture messages and hasn't listened taking the internet off was a deliberately big gesture to make sure she understood how serious it was.

Luckily as my DD is with her dad every other weekend I don't have to take her out, DSD can just come here. I would never stop her coming her, not ever, it is her home. But I think as a mother I have the right to protect my DD from all of this.
It's hard to explain the cruelty to my DD... it was always very subtle like asking her for hug then right as DD got close, snarling at her and looking at her like a piece of dirt.

So I'm doing the right thing?

[notsonambysm]

I don't understand in what way I'm expecting her to be an adult...

[PooPooInMyToes]

Wow! That message does sound pretty bad!

The cruelty sounds horrible too. It makes me wonder what is going on in her life and her influences and home life that may be a factor.

[NotaDisneyMum]

namby - you know that I am further down the same road - after 18 months of no contact, and indirect abuse and insults via FB etc, DP and DSD are slowly rebuilding their relationship.

Like you, I was "angry-tigress" about the way DSD had treated my DD (who is older than your DD, but similarly looked up to DSD and adored her as a BFF).

I have set some very firm boundaries with DP, which we discuss regularly as his relationship with DSD progresses. At the moment, she has no contact with either myself or DD. If DP invites her to our home, I have asked that he checks that DD and I are able to make ourselves scarce before he commits to it.

DP made it clear to DSD that part of "getting to know each other again" is addressing issues from the past - discussing how his parenting and choices made her feel that led to her becoming estranged, and similarly, explaining to her how her estrangement has affected other people - me, DD, her mum, DSS as well as DP himself. There is no option to put a sticky plaster on and ignore the elephant in the room - if she is not ready to address those issues, then DP will wait until she is.

Once DP and DD have established a stable relationship, which we know will take months, if not years; only then will I consider having contact with her again. If I do, it will be for DP's sake, and DP will ensure that DD understands that. There will be no expectation that DSD and I will develop any sort of relationship - beyond being polite and civil to each other.
As for DD, well, as she gets older she can make her own decisions, but for now, I will ensure that she isn't hurt by decisions I make, and I will ensure that no contact between them is enforced or expected.

As an aside - one of the boundaries that DP and I have agreed is that we will protect DSS time with us independent of his own sister, so effectively we have decided to keep them apart, because we recognise that space away from her is very important to him.

[hattifattner]

Teenagers don't really know how to apologise. Not immediately. They come back with a big cob on attitude and eventually give you a hug and a gruff mumble.

That said, I think you are being reasonable to expect not to host her the first time on a day when your entire family is there. She can come along when its you, your dd and your DH only, so that she can be in a normal family atmosphere. Dont try and hide your DD from her - you will only make things worse. Let them see each other and hopefully DSD will realise how much she has missed her little sis.

When the little one is out of the room, I think you need to take the moral high ground and quietly state how devestated you both were with her outburst and how you hope she will speak rationally about things that are upsetting her in future, rather than resort to vicious name calling and accusatiions. Remind her that some things cannot be unsaid, and that you both care for her very much.

On the phone thing, YABU. There are lots of capped contracts available, and you should get her one of these, rather than expect her to self regulate, or cut off all means of communication indefinitely .

[notsonambysm]

I wouldnt know where to start PooPoo! Her Mum has had a hard life (some pretty horrible an unfortunate things) and has somehow painted it to DSD that it is the two of them agaisnt the world, despite the fact that DSD has a charmed life and the world at her feet. They are both "victims" and everyone else is better off than them.

Mum is also about to have a baby which DSD is outwardly very excited about but god only knows whats going on inside her head as her and Mum are literally eachother's "everything" (in both their words)

Dad is nothing but a wallet and also the bastard that "walked out on them" leavng Mum destitute...

It's allpretty dire really. I guess I'm annoyed that my ex and I have done everythng in our power to ensure that our DD is as unscathed as possible from our seperation but DD is still being pulled in to this nastiness. I want her to have good examples of relationships and know that Mum will protect her from people who don't treat her right. Not that people can swan in and out of her life on a whim and treat her unkindly and mum will just let it happen again and again with no apology needed.

[notsonambysm]

Thanks for the advice Hatti but we must be worlds apart on parenting it wasn't cutting off "all communication" It was cutting the internet on her iphone. She has calls and texts unlimited, and a laptp with broadband. She has the app installed where she can check her internet usage and knows how to check it. She has 750mb of usage on there so to go over it by nearly £50 is way out of order.

Thanks for that NADM, sounds like we're on similar trains of thought here. I suppose that's what is is "our choices" I feel like DD is living with DH because I chose him as a partner. I have to protecther from this. I'm not happy to put a timeframe on it of "a couple of weeks" as he says. In my opinionit took about 5 years for his relationship with his DD to deteriorate to the point it's at now... it could take that long to repair!

[notsonambysm]

Ooh and NADM - pleased things are continuing to progress for your DH! And thathe is being so wise about it. i wish he and mine could meet

[hattifattner]

Different parenting indeed.

You sound unforgiving. All teens can say vile things and act without considering the consequences of their actions. Its up to the adults in the relationship to guide these youngsters into civilised behaviour, not to condemn them to a life outside the "real" family, cut off because of something they said in the heat of the moment.

You cannot win this one, unless you become the adult in the relationship. Do not try and come between your DSD and her dad by excluding her from your home. Because that makes YOU the aggressor. WHat is worse - mouthing off in a fit of hormonal pique or deliberately keeping a child away from her dad and her half sister?

Fair enough on the phone, I misunderstood.

But in this relationship, you are the adult and your actions will harm your relationship with your DH, and will also therefore harm your relationship with your child. You must rise above it all and let your DSD back into your lives. You can explain how you felt, you can explain how hurt her SS was not seeing her. But if you cut her off, you will be the evil step mother who has tried to cut her away from her dad and sister.

[NotaDisneyMum]

But if you cut her off, you will be the evil step mother who has tried to cut her away from her dad and sister.

How so? Like the OP, I have refused to have anything to do with my DSD, and I am similarly protecting my DD from her selfish and thoughtless behaviour. But I have not cut my DSD off from her Dad in any way - and I don't understand how what namby suggests will do that?

As for cutting her away from her sister - that is a relationship that develops with time - it is not an automatic right just because her Dad and I are together. The expectation that step-siblings will develop any form of bond, let alone consider themselves as siblings, is generally one that appeases the adults, rather than something which is in the interests of the DC's themselves.

[catsmother]

Hatti, I don't think Notso is excluding the SD from her home (see her post at 15.35) but is, understandably, very wary of providing unrestricted access between SD and DD when the recent reconcilliation between father and daughter is so new. Given that there was quite a period of non contact and that some very extreme, nasty behaviour preceded this, I really don't see what's wrong in treading very carefully. I agree both girls are still children but a 6 year old who's not in control of any of this will arguably be hit far harder by her once-adored sister turning up as if nothing's happened, and then, potentially disappearing once again, perhaps very soon after, if she's "upset" or "offended" at something ... e.g. a ticking off, and/or not getting her own way. Believe me, this can happen, and I think Notso's 1st priority must be her own child .... if she doesn't watch out for her, who's supposed to do it otherwise.

Obviously, reintroducing them will have to take place at some point but ideally this should only happen at a point when the main relationship between father and daughter has been properly repaired and has gone back to whatever's normal .... and that includes (or should include) Notso's DP feeling free to discipline SD as and when required without fearing she'll stomp off in a huff. Which I'm afraid I see as emotional blackmail by another name ... i.e. if you tell me off I won't see you. Having been through something very similar I understand totally why Notso would like an apology and why she might feel that the child's "forgiving" the dad in the absence of one. I really don't understand why an apology should be beyond a child of 13 but obviously that might only come with her understanding why her behaviour was so disrespectful and hurtful, and, without input from a mother with her own agenda, DP would need to steer her in that direction by explaining to her how upset he was - not only by not seeing her but also by the things she said. If Notso's DP is anything like mine (and many other dads I've read about) he'll probably feel very reluctant to have any such meaningful discussion with her for fear of scaring her off again which unfortunately, often typifies the imbalance of power between parent and child in a step situation where the child always has a safe haven to run off to if they don't like what they're hearing. In a "together" family for example the kerfuffle over the phone would have had to have been sorted out sooner or later ... maybe SD might have sulked for a couple of days but she'd have had to come round sooner or later in order to fully participate in the household she lived in. And at the 1st sign of insolent namke calling, she could have been threatened with punishment, and or punished, to nip it in the bud and it would never have got as far as this. Of course .... if the mother was any sort of decent parent she'd not have let this get so far either - but then in my own personal experience and that of other women I know there are, regretably, some bitter people who'd rather score points than do what's best for the child.

Notso .... one of my stepchildren didn't set foot in this house - their choice - for 5 years, following an extremely justified telling off for some very nasty bullying that they didn't like. DP started to see them away from the house after 3 years or so (all previous attempts rejected - this was court ordered) and was, IMO, taken advantage of for 2 years as the child insisted on expensive days out, stuff and meals out etc. (we are talking older teen, not primary). Eventually, they very graciously agreed to "come back" but only, co-incidentally, when doing so was very much to their advantage (can't go into detail as it's specific and would out me) and when, just weeks prior, and despite the all singing all dancing monthly meets, had fired off a barrage of truly despicable and foul emails to DP giving him what for. None of this has ever really been thrashed out and though the child in question (almost legally an adult) now visits around 6-7 times a year (their choice of frequency) I don't feel it's a healthy or genuine relationship but more one based on what they can get from us materially. But of course, DP wouldn't want to stop seeing his child regardless and I find it very very hard all things considered. What went on has never been discussed - and put to bed - so we can all move on normally and unfortunately, DP is now in awe of both his kids - terrified of upsetting them and this results in unfair treatment between them and our younger child (though this is usually excused/denied). Anyway .... back to the original point, when this child decided to "come back" - no apology, no acknowledgement at all etc - I was also extremely worried about the potential effect on my child but had to bite the bullet as by that time DP had been in touch with them away from home for 2 years. My worries about the recent foul emails were brushed aside. I told DP I wasn't happy because I didn't want our child's hopes raised and dashed again but I was overruled. Thankfully that's not turned out to be the case - but mainly because DP makes such an effort to keep them sweet. Had he treated them normally, including discipline and rules, I suspect they would have voted with their feet again. The whole thing I can tell you has made me loose a huge amount of respect for DP because it feels as if he's prioritising the older kids over our youngest. And like you, it was never a question of banning anyone from the house .... just a simple desire that everyone was treated equally.

Prior to the return into our house, DP had suggested that our youngest went with him to meet the older child but I put my foot down about that 100%. There was no way I was going to give our child the message that it was okay to strop off and be foul and then have the whole bloody family paying court to them, at their convenience, while our home apparently remained not good enough. Like you, my child had been incredibly upset when their older sibling "disappeared", the 2nd oldest also did a disappearing act a while later for 18 months though that was slightly different in as much as it seemed the younger child was heavily influenced by both mother and older sibling, and put under a lot of pressure to be "loyal" to them and them only by NOT visiting us. Either way, my child, at nursery and primary age, took a lot of blame upon themselves and it used to break my heart. However much we tried to explain, they kept asking if they'd done something wrong or if they were "hated". It was so so hard to reassure them and when you're having to deal with that, on a regular basis, and witness your child's distress when they'd done absolutely nothing wrong you just want to scream. Certainly there was no way that I was ever going to agree to a casual meet up when, in my opinion, the estrangement hadn't been dealt with. Ultimately, I felt my hand was forced but I told DP that if our child was hurt again by the skids' selfish spoilt stroppping off that'd be it and he would have to see them outside our home ..... yeah yeah yeah burn me at the stake. But really, IMO, it was up to him as the adult and as a parent to deal with it responsibly and that included not only protecting the youngest, most vulnerable child but also setting his older kids straight as necessary so they grew up as nice people. If he wasn't prepared to do that, well, he'd have to live with the consequences. I can't speak for every step family - that'd be ridiculous and presumptious - but in my case, far too often, some kids are tiptoed around in a way that's completely unfair. Why the hell should the emotional well being of a younger child be sacrificed in order to keep older kids "on side" ? at what age should older kids be expected to take some responsibility for their own actions for that matter ?

Notso - I think you're absolutely right to tread carefully. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. I know my child and I know they'd have been devastated and traumatised had their older sibling done a runner again.

[notsonambysm]

Hatti, I don't want to come across as though I don't want to hear a different point of view but you seem to be responding to different questions. I don't want to exclude dsd from our home, not from my dh. He was so depressed when she went that it nearly finished us, why would I want that?
I need to protect the most vulnerable child as cats and nadm say. I will reply properly in a while and thanks for the thought out responses. Dealing with dd and toddler nephew at sleepover at the moment

One point to note is that dh has spent the whole day with dsd and they had a good time. She didn't ask after me or dd.

[brdgrl]

catsmother, you always speak sense. :)

Agreed - you are being entirely reasonable and sensible to set boundaries while this situation is playing out. And I think it would be very hard on your DD to have DSD waltzing in and out of her life - so yes, take her out for the day and leave DH and DSD to rebuild their own relationship first.

In your shoes I would find it hard to be forgiving of DSD's behaviour - and maybe you "should" be - but there is a big difference between forgiving, and pretending it never happened and leaving yourself open to being hurt again. I know I would find that line difficult to walk.

[Kaluki]

Notso it is your DHs choice to see his dd again and also your choice if you do but your dd is subjected to her nastiness through no fault of her own and you are damn right to protect her, just as you would protect her from any other child who hurt her.
What you say about your SD asking for a hug then rejecting her is just cruel and mean and any one (child or adult) who can do that to a young girl who looks up to them is just plain bloody nasty and to be avoided.
It won't be happy families for a long while (if ever) so to pretend it is is just ridiculous and naive on your DHs part.
She sounds like she has a real mean streak - I remember your thread about her vile phone message to her dad - and this is not someone I would want around my dc either!

[matana]

If it was me, I would support my DH to rebuild his relationship with his daughter, but ask him not to expect me to forgive and forget so easily. I can say this with some experience, though we are not at the stage yet where DSD wants to rebuild the relationship. She hasn't bothered maintaining a relationship with my 19 mo DS and hasn't seen him since December. She can't just expect to walk back into his life (or indeed mine) now without some kind of display of remorse. If/ when she comes back she'll be welcome in our house and i really want my DH to get back the relationship with her. But i'll be going out for the day and taking DS with me. You can't re-build three relationships at once, so the most important one needs concentrating on first - your responsibility is towards your DD. Your DH's is to his own daughter.

And i disagree that teenagers should be given such leniency for being so careless with other people's feelings. There comes a point when you have to stop excusing their behaviour as that of a child. I would never have dreamed of calling my dad a little pussy with a hunchback and filthy beard. And i would be mortified if my own DS spoke to another human in such an unkind and unpleasant manner.

[Kaluki]

If I had spoken to my Dad like that my arse would have been blue!!!
Its a complete lack of respect and shouldn't go unpunished.

[MadamGazelleIsMyMum]

I agree with your inclination to protect your own DC - perhaps keep it under review in terms of your DSD's improvement to her relationship with your DH and if she shows she can be consistent and is making an efffort, you can consider reintroducing her to your DD, in small steps?

My DD adores her big sister and I would find it very hard if DSD behaved like that to her.

[notsonambysm]

Thanks for all he advice, I haven't had the chance to come on properly and digest it all so apologies to post and run!

I'm pleased to hear that I am probably being reasonable. There is however a wee spanner in the works now as DSDs mum's baby is due on Monday. DH has asked her a number of times about if he can have DSD but she has been adamant that things have been arranged for her to go to her friends. After I decided what I decided about my DD I thought this was probably a good thing but I'm now feeling bad that if anything (heaven forbid) should go wrong, DSD should be with her dad as she'll be worried. But this will mean being with DD too... unless we can think of somewhere else to go. Of course I wouldn't turn her away, if she does need tobe here.

DH had his third "date" with DSD this weekend, they went out for dinner on Friday night. Still no apology (not that he seems to mind) and still nothing has been discussed. But she seems happy eough to chat to him and they are getting to know each other again. She complained about her Mum, and about her Mum's boyfriend. Nothing other than the usual stuff you'd expect from a teenager but it is a huge thing for her to recognise that her Mum is not the most incredible and infallible human being on the planet with no faults. She hasn't asked after me or DD and despite me texting her on Friday morning to say Happy Holidays and I hope she has a nice evening with Dad, I've had nothing back. I also sent with him a selection of the drawings that DD has been doing for her and a book that I liked when i was her age. She didn't comment on them and just set them to one side. So there is clearly an issue which she isn't talking about. She says she wants to come on holiday with us at the end of August. DH is happy with this but if she isn't even acknowledging me I can't see how it can work TBH. But again, I can hardly say no can I, and be the wicked SM... DD is away wth her Dad so no issue there.

What I have to confess is that yesterday I realised how much nicer life actually is without her around. Everyone is relaxed, there is no conflict in the house, no feeling that everything I say or do is being reported back. No snidey looks if I (for example) walk around the house with hair removal cream on my lip or questions about what size jeans I'm wearing now and a look of glee when I tell her and she can waffle on and on about how hers are two sizes smaller etc etc. Questions over what I'm eating, questions over my opinion on issues where she knows they differ from her Mum's. No cruel behaviour towards DD. Even DH (although he says he is unhappy with just seeing her for a "date") is just so much more relaxed. A different person in fact.

I know it can't stay like this, I wouldn't want it to, what i would like is to have her back her so we can be a four again but for her to not be nasty and bitter. The thought of her coming back before all of this is resolved only for us to fall back into the horrible atmosphere again is just painful.

He said yesterday that he feels like he can't "get used to" anything as things will keep changing, we are all in flux. He wants her back staying round here and for things to be "normal" I don't want to say something thats going to make me sound like I don't want her back - but I really don't, if things are going to be like before. Maybe she feels the same, maybe thats why she isn't staying at the moment. Maybe it will just take time.

Personally i think they need intervention, family counselling or something so that they can start talking. But MUm has completely forbidden it and there's no way that DSD would go behind her back. I suppose DH will just have to bite the bullet and get talking, but by his own admission he is really bad at that and has always swept things under the rug. I have only very recently made him realise this isn't the thing to do but although he now knows this, where does he go from here? How to change the habit of a life-time??!!

[notsonambysm]

catsmother Thank you for sharing your story. "There was no way I was going to give our child the message that it was okay to strop off and be foul and then have the whole bloody family paying court to them, at their convenience, while our home apparently remained not good enough." THIS is exactly how I feel.

[notsonambysm]

In fact, that was misleading... I didn't send him with the book and pictures, he decided to take them. I bought the book ages ago as I saw it on amazon while I was looking for something else. I bought it for her to give to her when things are better. It was in her room along with the pictures and DH took them with him on Friday - just to clarify!