After a chat last night I feel even worse.

[NewYearsDaysie]

DH and I had a bit of a chat last night as we saw DSD yesterday and we were talking about how happy she seemed. I plucked up the courage to ask him if he was angry with me about the decision I thought we had made. He told me he was angry at the time when I told him to chose. I honestly and truthfully cannot remember giving him any ultimatum the way that he remembers it. I remember putting my points across and saying that if she were to come to live with us I could see it causing problems, outlining what I could see happening and saying it could end up being the end of us. He never tried to persuade me otherwise and said last night that was because he made a decision and lived with it. He can'[t understand why I'm 'trawling over things again and again' (his words). I keep talking to him about it because I need to understand how he is feeling about things. I can't do what he wants if I don't know what that is.
Sorry just needed to rant.

[NotaDisneyMum]

He can'[t understand why I'm 'trawling over things again and again' (his words). I keep talking to him about it because I need to understand how he is feeling about things. I can't do what he wants if I don't know what that is.

This is totally normal ime, in any male-female couple relationship, about any issue that effects them.
Try getting hold of a copy of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - it;s in most libraries now - I'm sure it will help, and slowly, you will both be able to come to terms with this in your own way, while understanding why the other is behaving the way they are, too

[NewYearsDaysie]

Thanks for that. I'll see if I can find a copy. Anything that helps! It just bugs me I seem to be more upset than him

[Kaluki]

Saying that if she came to live with you it would spell the end of your relationship could be seen as asking him to choose but ultimately he made the decision not to take her in and he is standing by that.
I often over analyse things, I drive DP mad asking what he really thinks about something.
May have to go up to the loft and find my copy if Men are from Mars ...

[NewYearsDaysie]

My DM had a copy ...I shall be looking for answers in that tonight (well tomorrow when he can't see what I'm reading and laugh at me reading a Bridget Jones Bible!)

[NanaNina]

OK NYD I am now up to speed.......sorry I didn't get the facts right in my PM.I agree with all posters who are talking about the difficulty of getting men to talk about their feelings (most of them would rather walk over broken glass in bare feet) The male and female of the species in my mind are psychologically different - we see life through the opposite ends of the telescope. In fact I don't think we should live together in the first place and divorce statisitics support that view. 2nd marriages break down quicker than 1st ones and small wonder with all the emotional baggage around. Trouble is people don't think it's the institution of marriage that is wrong, they think it's the partner, so change partner and hey presto off it goes again!!

Sorry I know I am ranting on a different issue although vaguely related. I am sure you did make a joint decision about being unable to care for this child, and for the right reasons given your circumstances. Far better than making some rash inconsidered decision, only for it to cause more emotional harm to the child in the long run.

I suspect that yor DH is possibly feeling confused and guilty about the fact that he did not feel able to offer his daughter a home and most people (men especially) cover their guilt with anger, and so it is easy for him to put the blame on to you about the decision that was made. He doesn't want it trawled over because he can't cope with thinking about it and wants to push it all away - well that's my view FWIW.

NYD I am concerned for you as you seem to be the person in this set up who really understands about the child's needs and wants to do the best you can for her. You say you had a good day with her and so plucked up courage to ask your DH if he was angry with you about the decision you both made. This suggests to me that he is the dominant partner in the marriage (sorry if I have that wrong) and then you say how can you do what he wants if you don't know what that is. Why do you feel you have to do what he wants - he probably has no idea himself - he is probably confused and because he's a man he's not going to talk about his confusion.

You mentioned that your DH had a troubled childhood (again sorry if that's wrong but it's just something I thought you had said) and this may well have a bearing on his inability to bond with his daughter, although it sounds like you are having some good times too.

I honestly think it is best not to question him or try to discuss the situation because he is probably incapable (along with many men) of having the level of emotional intelligence that is needed for such a discussion, and remember how his past will be affecting him, though he'd probably deny that if you mention it!

You are not responsible for this child and there are reasons why your DH cannot feel an attachment to her, but this may come over time. You are more upset than him because you can see the child's needs and are putting in an effort to meet some of those needs. You clearly are a very sensitive woman and over time, maybe your DH can join in some of the activities you do, and once he feels some rewards, he may become more attached, because that is how secure attachments are built.

IF the thread gets judgemental again I will PM you. NNx

[NewYearsDaysie]

Thanks NanaNina what you've said makes sense. This is mine and DH's first marriage. DSD was the result of an ill fated fling when DH was in a bad emotional place. He is, in almost every other way a wonderful hubby and he is a good dad to my 3 DCs. I think I feel responsible for DSD as I've been there for her whole life..through relatives relationships I've actually known her longer than I've known my DH. I think I'm probably the most constant thing in her life.
We are seeing her tommorow so I'm going to try and do some of the things you suggested.

[NewYearsDaysie]

Just to add...about plucking up the courage. What I meant by this was that usually if I bring the subject of DSD up (or if its our weekend with her) DH is miserable, rude, sullen, distant and basically makes everyone else miserable too. I'll do anything for a quiet life! I think when the decision was made regarding her moving in I actually got the impression that he was uncomfortable with the situation and was relieved that he can shift guilt onto me as I 'made him choose' ...its all very exhausting. :(

[NanaNina]

Hi NYD - I hadn't realised you had known the child all her life and even before you met your DH, through relatives relationships. Bit confusing but makes sense as to why you feel so much for her. Hope you can help her to unravel a few things (or fit the jigsaw together) but it can't be done quckly. You will need a lot of patience and maybe start drawing and felt tipping/painting at first as just something you are sharing, and then move on to her past and you may see from her drawings things of interest. You can't interpret it realy, but you can ask her to talk about it maybe. How much time do you have, given that you have 3 other children?

[NewYearsDaysie]

When she's here she plays with her half siiblings (probably more than a 'normal' 11 year old.) So I'll be able to give her the time I can while playing with the others. DH also is aroundthen and I get to chat to her one to one for a while. As for being confusing...you're not wrong.

[NanaNina]

Oh NYD there is obviously a rather complicated history to this matter, since you have known DSD all her life. I knew what you meant by "pluck up courage" btw. We use terms like this when we are very wary of starting a discussion about something we know will be difficult.

I wonder if your DH feels so badly because you are fond of his daughter and make time for her, when he is unable to do this for whatever reason. A close friend adopted 2 children aged 8 and 10 and she bonded with the younger one but not the older one (who actually came across as a much more pleasant child) and my friend used to get really cross if anyone said something nice about the older one. I learned to be careful about this but my friend would still complain to me about how her mother and sister seemed to be able to make a better relationship with the older child. It really annoyed her. Just a thought.

I think however something has to give here, as you are living in a very tense situation as is your DH and surely this wil be picked up by your own children, as well of course as DSD. Does your DH's brother and his wife (who care for DSD on a permanent basis?) know how her father feels. I don't suppose he would accept the idea of counselling would he. Is there some other option that would ease the situation. Does your DH make any effort with DSD when she is with you. He must also feel very badly about the fact that he is unable to bond with her, and is no doubt causing him some inner turmoil, it can't not really.

[NewYearsDaysie]

Hi NanaNina, yes she lives with BIL permanently and has done for several years now. I have no idea if they know how DH feels as they are not a family that are prone to talking about feelings and thoughts. He has tried counselling before to deal with some of his issues but the stuff regarding DSD I just don't think he can verbaluse how he's feeling. I did find a course with Barnardos that I thought he might be able to go on to help with bonding for him and DSD but that was waved away as being 'touchy feely' and a bit of pointless waste of time. (no thanks for making the effort Daysie even tho he'd been saying he wanted to find a way to be closer to her). I don't think he sees a problem tbh because he's sort of shut himself off. When he does let his guard down with her it goes up on me and our 3DCs. We had a hell of a day yesterday (thread on board what a day!) Felt as tho I actually got through to her a bit. But bloody hell I felt drained.

[NewYearsDaysie]

Verbalize ...sorry for the spelling, on my phone and can't see what I've written!

[mathanxiety]

'I honestly and truthfully cannot remember giving him any ultimatum the way that he remembers it. I remember putting my points across and saying that if she were to come to live with us I could see it causing problems, outlining what I could see happening and saying it could end up being the end of us.'

How much of the 'men are from mars and women are from venus' thing comes from men telling us how they feel and us trying to interpret it to suit how we think they feel? Because that comes across to me as 'choose her or me'.

He knows there is no point in going over it again; the outcome won't change.

You can rationalise all you like about how he may have been relieved not to have her, or that he feels bad that he can't for whatever reason spend more time with her when she is at yours, but imo he is dealing with a situation where he was put between a rock and a hard place.

Every time she is with you he is reminded of what might have been. You really can't expect that not to hurt. When you try to get him to counselling, what he thinks is that you want to get him there in order for some counsellor to persuade him that you were right. It's nothing to do with 'his family doesn't do feelings'. He doesn't want his face rubbed in it. That is a feeling.

[NewYearsDaysie]

I never said his family don't do feelings, if anything they are a very sensitive family who feel so much and its worse because as I said they aren't a family that talk about them and that he finds it difficult to verbalise his feelings. I know he feels awful about things because of the way his behaviour changes. I am not stupid and i realise that he is hurting but I don't think the reason that he doesn't want to see a counsellor is that I want to get him there to see I was right. I don't presume to know why he doesn't want to go. He can't tell me because he either feels too upset about things or he cannot find the words to tell me exactly why because as i've already said he finds it hard to put his feelings into words.

As for not going over it again because the outcome won't change ... if he showed me that he would be sharing her parenting (by which I mean her emotional wellbeing more than anything not the practical everyday school run etc) then things may have been different to start with. He never raised any argument at all. Not even to say 'I'm not happy that you've given me a choice between you and DCs and her' (which I didn't. I said it COULD be the end of us as a couple because of......) If he said to me now he wasn't happy with the situation then I don't know how I'd feel about it but we could talk.

[mathanxiety]

You are splitting hairs when you say you didn't give him a stark choice, but you said if could be the end of you as a couple.

That is a very big thing to say to someone, a huge possible consequence to outline to someone.

Again, you are dancing around this when you say you know he is unhappy because of his behaviour but you can only acknowledge this and 'talk' when he manages to get the actual words out, when you have already said his family can't seem to talk.. You want him to jump through hoops and open up verbally to you when the last time he wanted something from you that meant a lot to him he was met with that choice. And when he does express how he feels, you try to read between the lines.

You are insisting that he talk and you are insisting that he conducts the relationship with his child the way you want him to. I would say he might feel backed into a corner as a result. Is your relationship with your own children on your terms or his? How would you feel if you were in his shoes and had to satisfy his conditions as to how you relate to them, what 'emotional support to a child' consists of, what each child needs from you?

You seem to think he either shouldn't have such an attachment to this child since she was the product of a fling and are annoyed that he would consider jeopardising your relationship because of his desire for a relationship with her, or that he should have such a good relationship with her that you wouldn't have to do much at all. Do you really and truly want him to have a relationship with this child? Can it be on his terms?

He is telling you he is unhappy and you know he is unhappy. The next move is up to you. Not him.

[Petal02]

In defence of the OP, I think she was very honest to point out that having the child full time 'could spell the end of the relationship'. Sadly, having a step child full time could cause significant difficulties in many marriages, and the OP had every right to put her point across.

[NanaNina]

NYD I have to say that I did agree with mathsanxietys first post, and I think for some reason this got you on the defensive as you were saying you never said this or that and saying "you weren't stupid" when this was neither said nor implied. I can only think something about that post touched a nerve (or sore spot) somewhere. It's so difficult really to have these conversations on line because in print we can't really engage in a meaningful way with each other, where there is eye contact, body language, tone of voice etc etc. I think I said something very similar in an earlier post about DH hurting and you were ok with that, but Ma says he is between a rock and a hard place and I think she's probably right.

I can't quite follow ma's last post but I don't thing this debate is going to be helpful to you. There is very clearly a lot of background history to all of this, about which we know nothing, and you drop out things sometimes (like you have known the child all her life) that put a different perspective on the problem. I know that you got a lot of judgemental posts in the beginning which must have been very hurtful.

Not sure where you want to go with this now, but am hapy for you to PM me if you feel the need. However I think you maybe either need to give more background info, or be clear about what you actually want from posters on here.

Don't want to get into the family "not doing feelings" or "not talking about feelings" (which I have to say I think are one and the same thing) However I think the 4 adults in this matter need to get together (without the child) obviously and let everyone talk about their own views/feelings and others listen and have a reasonable discussion. It does seem that there is so much not being out in the open and for the sake of the child (who I think all 4 of you care about) you need to have a frank discussion without apportioning blame, but the focus being on who is going to do what in the future to help the child.

[NewYearsDaysie]

Math You say the next move is up to me ... what move? I'm not trying to be defensive I'm just not sure what you are saying.

Petal thank you ... basically I thought it was better to be honest and tell him rather than agree to it and resent it.

Nana sorry if I seemed a bit defensive and to you math but yes the post touched a sore spot mostly because I feel guilty all the time (and I mean ALL the time) about not taking her and giving her a loving home. Even though I know that it wasn't the best thing all round. I think I felt that the tone was that he is a poor victim of my selfish horrible behaviour and he is right to ignore DSD as its the only way he can cope with the misreable situation where he can't take his own child in.

Basically what I wanted from posting on here was a bit of perspective from Step parents. I know that I'm not in the traditional stepmother role but I don't know anyone in RL who is a Stepparent. A perspective is thankfully that is what I've got.I accept that it won't all be positive but nothing in life ever is and sometimes I agree we need telling if we are being a selfish arse.

I'm also sorry to drip feed but the situation is so complicated that I can't even remeber all the things that have happened and forget that I haven't mentioned things.
If I could go back in time believe me I would change so many things.

[NanaNina]

You don't need to apologise NYD - I feel so sorry that you are carrying this massive amount of guilt for not "taking her in" but if I have got it right, you had 2 very young children and PND at the time - sorry if that's wrong. I agree with petal that it was far far better to be honest at the time, but it does seem to have left this business of who "made" the final decision sort of hanging in the air. I think DH says something about you issuing an ultimatum which you didn't do, you simply expressed your honest opinion, and it probably help's DH's guilt to believe that you made the decision.

Don't apologise either about drip feeding info - I am sure none of us could write our life story on a bit of a lap top screen!

Is there any chance that you can get this 4 way meeting between the adults. The child is thinking that her aunt and uncle know why her mother couldn't look after her (think that's right?) but for whatever reason can't ask them about this. It seems to me that you are her attachment figure, which is why she is able to offload her worries on to you, and I think the 4 of you adults might all be "living in 4 separate bubbles" and somehow or another, defenses or whatever is stopping communication, have to be broken down, because if the adults aren't sure who knows what, who is thinking what, etc etc then how is this child going to feel in the middle of a mire of confusion.

I appreciate you and your DH would have to "be barking up the same tree" and this may cause problems, before you embark on a discussion with the aunt and uncle, but to be honest I think until this has happened, none of you are really going to help this child.

[mathanxiety]

What you should say next is 'what do you need from me right now that will help your situation with your daughter?'

(Petal, the H has the OP's children there full time if I have read this right, and that seems not to have been an issue)

This isn't about blame or who is the victim -- it's about how you communicate together. You seem to feel a bit insecure about the relationship to the point where the child's presence could throw a serious spanner in the works. He seems to think that passive aggressive behaviour, sulking, etc will get him what he wants - if there is a victim here it is going to be the relationship, even without the child there under the roof.

I think you both need to go to counselling, both on your own and together, to work out why the insecurity, and how better communication can be achieved (maybe some sort of mirroring technique would be useful). Whether the child ends up with you or elsewhere, you have to be able to talk to each other better than you are doing right now or there will be no more relationship to protect.

[NewYearsDaysie]

I totally agree that we need to talk. I have been trying to get them to do this for months now (thats what my original thread was about www.mumsnet.com/Talk/stepparenting/1383803-Im-at-the-end-of-my-tether-LONG-not-sure-if-posting-here-is-best )
and most of the others too. DH has agreed with me on most things but the ultimatum thing came out the blue at me. I really did think that he had had the same thoughts and thats why he hadn't tried to persuade me otherwise.

Regarding the discussion I had had a chat with BIL and SIL one night when I had taken her home instead of DH and I was there for hours with them telling em stuff that DH didn't know about because they hadn't told him. It seems as thought they are taking it sometimes as thought they are her adoptive parents (they havn't adopted her she has a residence order) and have total autonomy and other times they defer to DH. DH has never had parental responsiblity. Its confusing. For example ... They sometimes leave it to him to tell her off for stuff when they are all together but then other times they complain that DH tells DSD off when she's in our home without them being there and that he should leave it to them when she goes home. About all things like this we are definitely 'on the same page' (urgh that phraase makes me cringe!)

They seem to leave me out of alot of stuff then pile everything on me (not DH when things aren't going too well)

[NewYearsDaysie]

math the other 3 children DH and I have together I have no other children. Just to clarify.

[mathanxiety]

There is plenty of talking but very little listening.

Nobody seems to know where they stand.

You need a professional mediator and a written agreement about the rights and responsibilities of every adult involved here, bearing in mind that the child has rights too. The agreement must be one that is the result of everyone's input. Don't try hammering anything out informally. You will not get out of the quagmire that way and in fact you risk further alienating your H because your talking will go round in circles as it is now.

As well as the mediation, you and your H need to go to some sort of counselling where you can both be taught to communicate (speak and listen) with each other.

[mathanxiety]

I had realised that when I re-read that your children were her half siblings

[NewYearsDaysie]

Thanks ma that is certainly somehthing that I will broach with DH when I have the courage to.