Are we being unreasonable?

[Stepmumliz]

DF and I got engaged on Christmas Eve (which was also our 5 year anniversary). Future DSS is 8.5 years old.

Mother of FDSS (not really DF's ex as was one night stand - v complicated!) has become very difficult since we told her about our engagement, despite having had pretty constructive relationships over last 2.5 years. Potted history - after FDSS was born (before I was in picture), DF was with someone else but had access to FDSS. He and mother of FDSS fell out over DF's then partner and she refused him access for several years. DF and I got together. I helped DF regain contact and get relationship with her to at least a constructive level. DF visits once a month (has always lived far away) sometimes takes FDSS out, sometimes just sees him in her house - she often has some excuse why FDSS can't be taken out.

She wouldn't let me see FDSS in early years, I completely understood and respected that and didn't push in any way whatsoever. First contact was when she invited me to his 6th birthday. We have subsequently had FDSS out for days (including her two daughters from two other relationships), had FDSS for weekend at DF's dad's house (not so far for FDSS to travel), and even conducted visits in her home. We try to be amenable to whatever she wants in terms of visits etc. as she tends to become difficult at the slightest challenge to her control and we just want a quiet life that includes access to FDSS.

Since tour engagement - DF no longer allowed to take FDSS out on his own. I am not welcome. Nothing else has changed to warrant this, except we got engaged (oh, and we increased her monthly payment - naively hoping it would get the relationship back on track).

All conversations DF and she (I stay well out of it) descend into argument again. She rants at him then hangs up when he tries to stand up for himself.

Sorry for long-windedness, I'm getting to the point now...

In one of their arguments, she demanded that FDSS is at our wedding (we haven't arranged it yet but of course he would be invited and hopefully part of bridal party) but has also said explicitly that she would have to accompany him?!?!?!?!? DF was furious. I burst out laughing. Are we being unreasonable to refuse this? Apparently everyone she has spoken to agrees that she should be there to support FDSS.

Maybe I'm biased but this is surely bonkers? Would appreciate your views. Sorry this was so long. Obviously needed to vent!

xx

[purpleroses]

I would politely tell her that a grandparent or aunt or uncle will look after fdss for the day.

[catsmother]

No - she's being bloody ridiculous (surely there'll be a number of other relatives to "support" him ... let alone his own dad?) and controlling, and I think she's got a cheek making this demand when you're not even "allowed" to see SS.

What do you mean ... DF no longer "allowed" to take SS out on his own ? He's not a possession and DF is his dad. Please don't tell me that she accompanies them ? Frankly, I'd be dragging her arse into court asap and getting contact on a more formal basis. Presumably, DF doesn't pose any sort of risk to his son ... so all these stipulations are nothing except spite and control. The longer you go along with this sort of thing, the more risk you run of her becoming ever more demanding and unreasonable (believe me, speaking from experience).

As for "everyone" she's spoken to - take that with a pinch of salt. The mythical "everyone" is frequently rolled out by this type of embittered ex in an attempt to somehow justify their nasty loony behaviour. Who gives a damn what "everyone" thinks ("everyone" is almost certainly a figment of her imagination, or people who've heard a warped version of what's going on).

[Stepmumliz]

"The longer you go along with this sort of thing, the more risk you run of her becoming ever more demanding and unreasonable" ...sigh... I think you're right.

It's just that we know if we take a firm stance she won't let DF see him at all. For now we can live with her not wanting me around, although it makes me sad and we don't think it's right. Especially since she seems to be inviting herself to our wedding! I think that's why I burst out laughing, it was just so hypocritical.

DF isn't on the birth certificate and so doesn't have Parental Responsibility so she knows she can do/demand whatever she likes at the moment. DF emailed her last night (in response to a long tirade from her), keeping language as neutral and amenable as we possibly could but also floating the suggestion of agreeing and signing a Parental Responsibility Agreement that also formalises contact (at the moment we do it at her convenience and always at last minute as she can't possibly plan ahead what with having three kids etc., etc. - she doesn't have a job mind you). I guess if she won't agree we'll have to start going through Courts etc., but we'd much rather try and resolve amongst ourselves.

Argh...it was all going ok (sort of, when it suited her) before the engagement. We didn't expect this reaction as they were never a proper couple. Also, when I've been at her house, we've got on pretty well all things considered. She's even popped out and left us there with all three of her kids (FDSS is her youngest, the older two are 14 and 17 now).

I guess we need to take some control but we just know it's going to be such a painful process...I may be on here a lot!

Thanks for responding. It helps to get perspective from others as it's hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes!

[IAmBooyhoo]

YANBU at all. his own father will be there to support him. it's not as if your DF will just ignore him for the whole day. it's his son!! she sounds like she just wants to nosey and see what your family and friends are liek and have a nice day out.

[Stepmumliz]

Oh, and yes, he will have paternal Gran, Grandad, Great Uncle & Aunt, Uncle and Uncle's OH (plus me and DF and my mum, dad, their partners, my sister, my brother and his partner, plus her daughter of same age as FDSS) to look after, support and include him.

But she insists he needs her there.

I should have noted that he has some mild learning and behavioural problems (although we have only ever witnessed behavioural problems in her house). This has always been the case, however, and he has not magically developed them since we got engaged.

[lefthandedscissors]

you're not being unreasonable, she is clearly a bonkers, control freak who sees her son as a possession she can use to get her own way. Sorry but from own bitter experience the only way this will get sorted is by going to court. You could try mediation first and see if you can reach an agreement but unless you get a court order in place there is always a chance that she will just change her mind again when it pleases her. Mediation might help to get to the bottom of her behavior though and as such might help improve things long term which is obviously in the child's best interests but just be aware that with the pattern of behavior you've described seems unlikely that it will be enough to ensure your partner and his son have a proper relationship, which they are both bloody well entitled to! That boy shouldn't be messed around with in this way. .

So sorry you're facing this, it really is shitty. I'd get your partner to start putting together a record of whats gone on, the contact he's had, a time line of events etc. If you don't want to throw away money on solicitors then represent yourselves, it looks like a fairly straightforward case and your partner won't be requesting anything much due to the distance so i'm pretty certain he will get the contact he wants. The only thing to watch out for is her future attitude, however DSS at 8.5 will not be as easy to manipulate as a very young child so that tactic might not work. There's a good book- Family courts without a lawyer - a guide for litigants in person by Lucy Reed.

[Stepmumliz]

Thanks for the response and advice scissors. Had been thinking of suggesting some sort of diary but definitely will now. Will also definitely check out that book, although it's not so much the paying for solicitors we're worried about, rather than the way she'll be in the interim. She really is quite vile to DF. I know I'm biased and he's by no means perfect but he's done his bloody best given how awful she is to him. What's weird though is that it's never been consistent. Sometimes she's vile on the phone/text/email and then all smiles when he's there and doesn't even mention whatever it was that had her so irate in the last communication.

Again...sigh...I have this horrible sicky feeling in my stomach that we are at the start of a very long and arduous process...on the plus side, hopefully we will sort proper contact with DSS who is adorable, despite his 'problems'. I said to DF that no court in the land would expect us to visit in her home while she's there (there has never been any question that he is a risk to his son), rather than take him out for the day or weekend or holidays. Am I right? Or could she have to be present/have say over others present during visits?

[IAmBooyhoo]

from what i gather the courts like to keep the staus quo. so if what has been happening is you having him on your own, staying at his grandparents' house (and yours?) and you and DF taking him out for the day without her then unless something has happened to suggest ds is at risk from this thenthe court will be very likely to order that it continues.

to give you my own personal experience. my ds visited his paternal grandparents on a saturday through a private arrangement between myself and them until he was 20 months old when there was a violent incident that i found out about. i immediately stopped contact (as you would) and i heard nothing from the family for 6 months. they had no contact at all with ds and didn't ask for any. then i got a court summons and was ordered to reinstate contact on a weekly basis as that had been the status quo until 6 months ago and that ds had been used to regular contact (never mind that he had forgotten who they were in the 6 months that they didn't see him as he was so young). i was able to arrange that the first 4 sessions were supervised but after that the court insisted that the weekly unsupervised contact happen. and this was with grandparents rather than a parent. so i reckon it would be pretty likely that a court would grant a contact order along the lines of what has already been happening.

[Stepmumliz]

Thanks Boo, that's really helpful. Must have been hard for you being forced to allow contact after violence. Not sure how I'd cope with that.

Out of interest how long do court orders etc. tend to take? Is it weeks, months or years? We know she'll be a nightmare while it's going on so we'd like to be able to estimate an end date! Plus it would be nice to have things sorted by the wedding (we're thinking March 2013) so there's no chance of us having to let her be there so that DSS can be part of it.

Thanks for your support guys.

[IAmBooyhoo]

i think our first court attendance was the end of september and the first supervised contact happend mid november so abour 6ish weeks. if FDSS' mum decides to be awkward it could take longer. she could not show up and if she decdied to be really malicious she could make things up but i hope for all your sakes she sees sense and doesn't even let it get to court. it is a horrible experience. i lost so much weight through it and my nerves were shot to pieces.

[Smum99]

Oh complete nightmare ex and court is really your only route. Remember it is the child's right in law to see his dad and courts will uphold that right on behalf of your dss.

DH's ex was very similar, rants via email and then will be all smiles and acts as if there are no issues and can't understand why DH isn't all smiley. It's very weird. Now after many years we ignore the rants as we realised the issues are within her life. DSS is now older and he is able to talk to us about his mum's erratic behaviour and I'm so glad that DH has fought hard to be a positive influence in his life. I suspect, sadly, your dss will have similar experiences as I'm sure her behaviour isn't just reserved for your partner.

We regret placating the ex for so long as it didn't really achieve anything. Court for us was a positive experience but I think your case might be a little more challenging due to the lack of PR. I would get legal advice asap, they will recommend mediation first so that has to be built into the timescales. If you then apply to court it takes typically 2-3 months from application and will be in the court local to where the child lives. A judge will make a determination on the day (i.e you get a court order prescribing contact) if the mum does not raise child protection issues. If she does want to block contact and raises concerns a judge will request a CAFCASS report. This takes time but is workload dependant.

The CAFCASS report is sent back to the court and judges usually agree with the report.

Keep all correspondence you have from the ex - either agreeing or blocking contact, make sure you have details of when you have dss and obviously keep records of the child maintenance payments. I hope the payments are in the form of Direct debit and marked for the maintenance of the child.

Good Luck - court may feel daunting but if you genuinely believe its in the best interests of DSS you will feel motivated to keep going. We have never regretted the decision to formalise the process as the stress of arranging contact has been reduced.

Do however be prepared for a backlash from the ex- not sure you can prevent it but you might need a strategy to contain it. The ex did try to alienate DSS from DH - we deliberately didn't involve dss in the process however the ex chose to share how horrid dh was for taking her to court. She lied about what happened in court - neglected to mention that the judge told her firmly that she was highly unreasonable.

[awingandaprayer]

YANBU

She's completely unreasonable and obviously got a lot of control issues.

Don't worry about the current lack of PR. Your fiance has an ongoing relationship with your stepson as his father and as his father is allowed to apply to the court for contact regardless of whether he currently has PR. He can apply for PR at the same time at no extra cost (though it is now a separate application form). He is almost entirely certain to get PR - it is only very very rarely that this would be refused.

I would start the legal process now. There are no welfare issues, contact has previously been established and once a month is very little time for your stepson to see his Dad so your chances of success should be high. I would think you could well end up with much better contact tgan you now in fact. But you aren't going to get anywhere without getting serious I fear. However, if you are lucky, you'll be able to resolve it without having to go through the whole court process to a final contested hearing.

Your fiancé will have to make the attempt to engage her in mediation before you are allowed to make the application. To give you an idea of the process and timescale, what we did was this:

Your partner writes formally to ex stating what contact he wants eg one weekend a month from Friday evening to Monday morning overnight with 50% holiday time at your home. Think about what you would ideally want for your stepson eg alternate Christmase are quite usual and can be included. He also suggests they attend mediation.

In our case this was declined by ex that week and so solicitor wrote repeating the same with request to reply within 2 weeks. Ex replied saying she was still not willing to attend mediation.

My DP attended mediation assessment session on his own and the mediator then contacted ex. She refused to attend. The mediation session was within the same week he requested the appointment and it took about a month for mediator to contact ex and for her to refuse.

At this point solicitor put in application for contact and PR. It took her about a week and we heard back from court the week after with first directions hearing for 6 weeks time. At this point ex got herself a solicitor who persuaded her told her she had no choice to mediate.

She attended a mediation meeting 2 weeks after receiving court papers and they both went to mediation. Not much was agreed in the first session but they met in 2 weeks time and agreed the contact pattern DP wanted. :)

We requested the court case was adjourned for 4 months to test out the agreement and a further mediation session was agreed in 3 months time to try to ensure things were kept on track (she had continued to be difficult about a couple of issues). The further mediation session went well, the court date was adjourned once more and eventually cancelled.

The whole thing took about 8 months but contact had improved drastically within even a few months. She got advice from her solicitor that she didn't have much of a leg to stand on I think :)

If you are unlucky enough that forcing mediation doesn't work then you will normally have a mediation session/discussion with a cafcass officer at the first directions hearing. With my ex partner (who also had contact issues with his children from his first marriage - I am destined to be a stepmum!) this is where things were largely resolved and a contact order was made then and there with a further review date being booked by the court. They never went to this as managed to fine tune the court order via mediation before that point. If you are unlucky enough to have to go to a final contested hearing then I believe it takes about 12 weeks from the directions hearing as CAFCASS are likely to have to make a report.

Most cases are resolved prior to this though. It doesn't sound like there are any welfare issues which can take longer to resolve fully. The courts do like the status quo so you should easily get back what you used to have. If you want an increase in time this should be possible too, given you only see him once a month but that may take a little more time with gradual increases in contact.

If it isn't resolved in good time for your wedding then you can ask for that as a separate order I think. There is no need for her to be there!

The trick with it is to see it as a slow gradual process and don't give up. Really try to give mediation a go too. Your partner doesn't have to agree to anything he feels uncomfortable with (and mustn't do this!) but it really is amazing how much progress you can make with the most unreasonable of people this way. I think everyone going into mediation says their ex is far too stubborn/unreasonable/crazy for it to work and we thought this too. Sometimes that is the case but it's much more common for it to work.

A good solicitor is invaluable although I understand it is pretty easy to do as a litigant in person too.

Good luck and congratulations on your engagement!

[Stepmumliz]

Thanks so much smum99 and awingandaprayer, your responses are really informative and gratefully appreciated. I'm sorry you guys have had to go through this, although I have to admit it is comforting to know we're not the only ones!

Update on the email(s) yesterday. She is blocking contact. DF was supposed to see DSS tomorrow. She won't allow it - citing that she doesn't trust DF and is ranting crazily about listing issues (at best exaggerated but mostly completely fabricated) going as far back as before DSS was even born.

The bombshell - two letters attached from local hospital paediatrician - apparently she (the Ex) did a 3Di interview in November, which shows an Aspergers diagnosis. DSS is yet to be assessed in person. Ex is now using the Aspergers diagnosis as the reason DF can't have him. DF has never had any problems coping with DSS in the past and even if he does have Aspergers, he hasn't just suddenly caught it like a cold! He has not changed just because she's answered some questions on a computer.

The only thing that has changed is our engagement. We both spent the day in her house between her 3Di interview and the engagement (delivering the Christmas presents) and things were fine then. It's a shame she didn't show us the letters from the paediatrician back then .

So, looks like we are going to have to go legal . Ugh. I use mediation in business and am 100% for it. I hope it works for all our sakes.

Thanks again everyone for your posts. I really appreciate them.

[awingandaprayer]

Only recent issues are important and anything dating years back will be irrelevant - she can't quote things that happened before he was born as important when she's been allowing contact without problems since that point. Also the only things a court will care about in terms of her 'trusting' your partner are safety issues ie violence or abuse not stuff like he doesn't feed him the food she thinks appropriate, arguments about bedtimes of 7.30 instead of 8.30 (though may have v slightly more relevance if DSS has Aspergers) and the usual sort of malarky you can get in these situations. Aspergers is not an adequate reason for withdrawing contact by the way - I work in mental health and that's rubbish. In fact you can use the fact she hasn't involved you in his health as a very good reason why your DP needs PR and if DSS has an ASD then you can point out that maintaing a predictable and regular contact pattern is going to be even more important than the random changes and sudden withdrawal of contact she seems to be insisting on. Find out what you can about ASD so your partner can be well informed and appear the reasonable parent he is. Work out the key important things for DSS, don't bother arguing about things that aren't important and don't delay! She's stopped contact so it is important for DSS, particularly in light of his diagnosis, to get contact reinstated asap. DPs ex backtracked immediately to the previous (though also inadequate) amount of contact as soon as the solicitor got involved after ex had stopped contact for spurious reasons. To get a proper contact agreement and increased time took longer.

[awingandaprayer]

I should also say im a firm believer that the courts, mediators, cafcass and solicitors have seen it all a hundred times before and they'll all work out almost instantly it's your engagement thats the real issue for your partners ex and that shes blocking contact. The process must be followed though properly though, be seen to listen to all arguments and be equal in its treatment of all parties as thats how the law has to work or where would we all be. As an important psychological side effect for dss mum: it's the fact that its a slow, unavoidable process that will eventually will seem to be increasingly inevitable. This is what will gradually convince DSS mum that it's in DSS best interest to see his Dad or, at the least, that she has does not have absolute control and limited choices in the matter. Ideally though, however much you end up disliking her, remember you still need to try to retain as much of a relationship between you as possible so you can effectively co-parent so be scrupulously reasonable yourselves.

[Smum99]

Now that she has blocked contact you don't have an option. It was similar for us, dss's mum blocked contact so DH didn't have option. The ex failed to speak at mediation so again court was the natural step.

Family court is not like a criminal court (more like council offices) and the judge made it clear that he was robust to all the invalid reasons why a child can't see the other parent. Reasonable people have no reason to fear the court process and you are being highly reasonable.

If DSS's Aspergers was a factor a fair mum would involve the dad and share information. Courts do know this so the fact that she has just produced this information and made no attempt to set-up contact shows she is unreasonable. For example, if he is able to go to school, see family members, meet up with friends etc then why shouldn't he meet his dad. If DSS has special requirements such as a routine why would she not share this?

Courts have experience of "he said/she said" so they disregard anything not directly welfare related.Keep the emails as they provide insight for your solicitor but a Resolution member solicitor will just keep to the main point i.e What are suitable contact arrangements. I would advise that you ignore the rants, there is no need to justify or respond even if the accusations are highly inflammatory. I learned that the rants were often an attempt by the ex to have some contact with DH. It was a lightbulb moment for us.

I dreaded the whole court process, when solicitors letters arrived I would feel ill but once we were finally at court it was straightforward. There was a lot of hanging around and the actual hearing was very short. The law gives your DSS the right to see his dad - the court's role is to protect his right. It will come as a shock to the mum who still believes she has complete control.

You might also want to look on the FNF site as they have lots of support for dads going through difficult contact arrangements.

[Stepmum395]

Thanks so much for the wise words and support. You guys are amazing!