Different expectations between homes - can it work?

[NotaDisneyMum]

I've posted about this before, and it has come up again - not completely unexpectedly, because DSS is with us for a week during the school holidays, so it's more noticable.

DSS is a young yr 4 (8 1/2). There are elements of his behaviour that DP and I feel are that of a much younger child - some of which are explained by a general regression due to diagnosed anxiety (that he is receiving intermittent counselling for), but there are aspects of his lack of abilities around personal care that are more to do with his lack of skill/ability/motivation, and the fact that he is not expected to take personal responsibility for them elsewhere.

For instance. DSS has a regular swimming lesson - and DP takes him one week in two as it falls during contact time. DP expects DSS to change before and after the lesson independently (he still goes into the changing room with DSS, though). DSS struggles to think about what he has to do, in what order, and to actually do it. In contrast, his mum takes him into the ladies changing rooms and undresses him, dries him etc. herself.

DSS has no table skills at all; he shovels food into his mouth as fast as possible, dropping it down himself, over the table and is often caked in it when he has finished his meal. DP and I have more or less resigned ourselves to the fact that this is not something we can change believe me, we've tried and my boundary about that is that I won't eat out with DSS.

But, the lack of table skills is linked to another issue, and that is that DSS is not capable of washing himself independently. He has not been able to grasp the concept that getting ready for bed/getting up involves going into the bathroom, brushing his teeth, washing his face/hands etc, and then putting his pyjamas or clothes on. On talking this through with him, DSS revealed that he is not expected to wash at his mums - he showers 3 times a week, but doesn't wash himself in between, and his mum directs him during the course of the evening to put his pyjamas on, then he'll go and watch TV or play, and then a bit later his mum will tell him to brush his teeth (if she doesn't ask, he doesn't brush them). the same happens in the mornings. Consequently, DSS can often be seen with days-old food on his face, and his nails/ears etc are often filthy!

Is there any chance of DP and I influencing this? DSS is with us 4 consecutive nights a fortnight and half of all school holidays - we've been trying to support him to become more independent for several months, but it seems every time he arrives, we are back to square one and have to start all over again! I appreciate that we can't influence what happens when he's at his mums, but is it possible to teach him personal care skills in such a short time, with intermittent reinforcement, and hope he decides to use them wherever he is?

[SidneyBristow]

Yes, I definitely think it's possible for you & your DH to set a standard for this sort of thing at your house, and your DSS can be helped to achieve those standards bit by bit. It sounds like he's being babied at his mother's and ultimately will suffer for it unfortunately, especially if his peers take notice of him being dirty.

Could you sit him down and explain that he's now old enough to start doing x, y and z on his own? Explain what's involved in "getting ready for school/bed", and make a list of those jobs & the order in which they're to be done. No breaks inbetween for TV/games, and once he's mastered a particular skill, add another one.

The eating situation is grim, and I can sympathize as my DF's older child used to be a real nightmare at the table. We started making a point of leading them through every single thing that went into 'eating nicely,' ie napkin in lap, waiting for everyone to be served to start eating, not speaking with food in your mouth, no grabbing etc., and although it was really (incredibly, endlessly, agonizingly) tedious, certain things have sunk in and now no longer need cuing. We've also instituted a daily allowance, and as a family made a list of house rules. Warnings are given once, but if another reminder is needed, the daily allowance is forfeited, with the understanding that everyone has a bad day sometimes and it's not the end of the world, but that when everyone makes an effort, we're all happier and the day is more fun.

Having a list of expected and agreed-upon behaviors has really been the turning point. "Eating nicely" seemed too vague a concept for his older child, but having specific behaviors to do was manageable, and now mealtimes are actually fun. Often she happily offers to clear the table or give a helpful reminder to her sibling, so that he doesn't lose his allowance. If your SS is anything like mine, it's not that he's truculent, more that he's just a bit absentminded and doesn't actually realize (or remember) that he's not doing what he should be.

[NotaDisneyMum]

How did your DSC react to the 'cuing' at the meal table?

DP has been doing this and DSS has begun to get sneaky and watches DP out of the corner of his eye - as soon as he thinks he can 'get away' with it, he reverts to poor manners - which I think indicates that its partly down to laziness

Any suggestions from DP as to how DSS might change his behaviour at the table leads to his total withdrawal - DP suggested that if DSS held his fork differently, less food would fall onto the floor (and demonstrated to show him) DSS didn't say another word at the table and refuses to get involved in family activities all afternoon - as if he had been given a telling off!

We've got house 'rules' and expectations - all agreed between the DCs and ourselves and DP has taken DSS through the basic steps of the simplest tasks -for instance, getting ready for bed; take your clothes off, run a bowl of warm water, wet the flannel etc etc. DSS just doesn't retain the information between visits - by the end of this week, he'll probably be able to remember the steps and do them while DP watches - but after two weeks at his mums, he'll have forgotten them all again! We've been trying for over a year to 'teach' him to prepare his own bowl of cereal for breakfast and he still stands in the kitchen waiting for someone to do it for him

His visits aren't fun for him when he is being reminded of things all the time - as much as we want to treat him as part of the family, is that realistic? Would treating him more like a regular guest who we expect to 'muck in' on request be better?

[SidneyBristow]

I feel for you; it sounds a terribly frustrating situation, for everyone. My DSC are with us 50% of the time so although it does take them a bit to 'remember' our routines etc, it doesn't eat up their entire stay. I have to admit, I am a bit strict, especially where mealtimes are concerned. Would sending your DSS from the table for a couple of minutes if he starts sulking help at all? We've brought that up, and luckily it's not been necessary (yet). It's always phrased as a "Hey, you seem to not be too happy with things right now; do you need a minute or two to yourself to change your attitude?" rather than a more explicitly punitive consequence. My DSC take the cuing pretty well; we don't harp on every single thing every single day, but mainly work on a couple of behaviors a week and then on to new ones once those are mastered. We remind them at the time that it's in an effort to help them, so that when they eat at school or at friends' houses, they know how to handle themselves. So far it's been treated as a family project, and it's working well for us, so far. It helps that my DSD, the messier eater of the two, is getting more concerned with what others think of her, and more aware of others' feelings and the unfairness of hurting them if she can prevent it. My DF has pointedly told her before he won't sit across from her because he can't bear watching her eat, and this had obviously never occurred to her before, and she didn't like it - so luckily she changed her behavior rather than becoming stubborn. Your DSS sounds a bit more difficult.

About the cereal at breakfast, does someone eventually pour him his cereal? How would he react if the rest of the family prepared their own breakfasts, and left him standing there with no food or drink? It might be worth a try. You could talk him through how to do what needs doing, and eventually have him write it all out, and leave it on the fridge.

Your DDS probably does feel like he's always being nagged at your house, because it's the complete opposite at his mum's - but that doesn't make her way the right way. She's going to raise him into a very lazy, entitled young man who eventually becomes resentful for not being taught how to manage himself. Is there any way to get her on board with helping him take more initiative?

[Kaluki]

I feel for you NADM. My DSC are so similar to yours.
Neither of them will clean their teeth or wash without being told to. DSD will avoid cleaning her teeth and says she doesn't have to at home (which I believe as her teeth are going brown already - she's only 7). DSS (10) will wet the bed unless he is told to go to toilet before bedtime and as for their table manners . I refuse to eat out with them too. Both of them will avoid a bath like the plague and I have to bribe DSD to have her hair brushed.
My DC (8 and 12) do all these things by themselves and we just hope that the DSC follow their example but it is such bloody hard work. Its like having 2 toddlers in the house at times.
When we have them for a week or a fortnight, after a few days they are washing, cleaning teeth and looking after themselves but then by the next access weekend they are filthy again
We have mentioned it to DPs ex but got told to F* off and I got called a snob!!! How can you deal with that mentality???

[MsIngaFewmarbles]

We have managed quite a lot of this with DSD who is 8. We have joint residency so we have an equal split of time which may have helped. At her Mums she wasn't expected to do anything, not tidying away toys, putting clothes in the basket, eat with her mouth closed, use both a knive and fork, was eating with her head in a hand at the table.

its taken time, but we've taught her all of these and she will now also join in with loading the dw after supper. We got soooo much grief from her Mum about all this (expectations too high/she's not a slave etc etc) but she had to learn that she isn't a baby any more. Also they are essential life skills, on top of which we have a large household and everyone needs to muck in.

perseverance, don't expect overnight changes, but you can have a huge influence if it matters enough to you and you have the patience.

[MsIngaFewmarbles]

and she will shower alone too now. Mostly down to some gentle ribbing from my DDs. Peer pressure can work better than adults sometimes.

[SidneyBristow]

Kaluki my heavens!!! I feel for you!

What I don't understand is why the biological moms aren't clamoring to push their kids to be more independent - wouldn't it just take one thing less off their to-do list a day, if their kids brushed their own teeth/bathed themselves/ate properly (less laundry) etc? I don't understand the bent towards infantilising children who are old enough to legitimately be helpful around the house. It's incomprehensible that teaching a child proper hygiene is 'snobby' or having an 8 yr old help out with chores is akin to slave labor, when surely picking up these skills would make everyone's lives better. I know my DSD has seemed a happier little girl since being given the opportunity to pitch in around the house, and praised for her efforts as a result. The allowance is icing on the cake, really. She likes feeling more a part of the house hold. Maybe that's why the BMs resist things like this, is that ultimately they don't really like the idea of the SC being contributing members of another household?

[lopsided]

As an aside my dentist said that up till 9 years old you should be giving their teeth a once over morning and night. Apparently until this age most children do a poor job.

[SparkleSoiree]

Sorry to hear that you are having this kind of stress Notadisneymum.

SidneyBristow your experience is almost identical to mine with a bit of Kaluki's thrown in. Mealtimes became tedious with constant direction and bath/bedtimes were a complete nightmare but we eventually got there.

We found it easier when the children were with us over longer periods which meant they could relax more and go with the flow. When it was shorter periods it was more difficult.

DH mentioned that his kids gums were bleeding each time they brushed their teeth to his EX at drop off and she told him to mind his own business. Another time he tried to discuss their table manners with him and her reply was 'they are boys - what do you expect?'. Every time he tried to discuss something with her he was dismissed immediately.

I think we knew we were on totally different levels when DH asked his eldest son how often he was bathing at his mums (he had a strange odour about him on this visit) and his eldest replied that they didn't really 'shower' but that they stood in the bath, bent over and mum showered their bits and that was it. They are 11 and 9.

Being a stepmum is the worst and best job in the world at times; the worst because the mere title is tainted and you are viewed as some kind of interloper who is always creating trouble but the best because there are a few moments in the child's life where you really feel like you have made a difference even if they only acknowledge it for a few seconds - you KNOW you made a difference to their happiness.

[Alltheseboys]

Have you ever considered that your ds' behaviour may be down to any special needs such as autism or dyspraxia? Even if it is mild it would explain something's such as lack of coordination, poor sequencing, forgetting instructions etc. it does sound like his mother doesn't want her baby to grow up but you can help with instruction boards that are used for sen children. These ask the children to break down into sequences what they should do when they wake up or go to bed. You can write these together then put these up in the bathroom or bedroom etc.
One thing that did trouble me op, if your child did have a special need would you refuse to take them for dinner and for what reason? You don't want him to make a mess in public but many children have developmental delay who need to learn how to act in social settings from experience.

[NotaDisneyMum]

allthese - As a NR stepmum, I've learnt the hard way that it is not my place to suggest 'labels' - DSS has had regular contact with a counsellor over the last year, both his parents are actively involved in the school and are intelligence professionals - if they don't feel that SN is an explanation, then it is certainly not my place to consider it.
I don't have any experience of SN - and to be honest, my experience with my own DD is so different than with DSS, I don't think I'm experienced enough as a parent to comment as to whether his behaviour is 'typical' or not

If he were diagnosed with SN then I would seek support to improve my understanding and tolerance of his behaviour and of course I would support DP in his role as a dad. As it is, some of DSS behaviour appears to be laziness rather than unable to behave in what I consider to be an age appropriate way, and I have very little tolerance for that.

[purpleroses]

Doesn't sound like SN to me. Sounds mainly like he's not taking a lot of personal responsibility because he's not had it pushed on him. Neither my DS, nor either of my DP's DSs take much unless you push it on them (though all our DDs effortlessly wash, dress, etc with much less help at the same age)

I think you can instigate different rules re bedtimes at different houses, but you'll probably need to make the routine very clear and the same each time, and then more or less walk him through it each time, and certainly on the first night of each visit. DP's DS is around the same age as your DSS and (contrary to what my DP believed until recently...) does not brush his teeth or wash his face unless someone stands over him telling him what to do next. TBH - I don't think my DS just did either until around 9 or 10 - even though he is with me most of the time.

With the table manners I am currently employing the same technique as I did with my two DCs with DP's youngest DS - awarding marks out of 10 for each forkful - with the other DCs joining in to agree marks. They seem to enjoy the game - though progress is hit and miss. I think that is a difficult one to get different habits in different houses really - though you can always do your bit to improve them overall.

[NotaDisneyMum]

*ooops - intelligent, not intelligence professionals - they don't work for MI5!!!!

[missduff]

I think things like bedtime routine, washing etc are mostly down to habbit, these things could take longer to change as it is hard to change a habit.
But as far as table manners go then this is down to what is expected I your house eg ''at dad's house I have to eat with my mouth closed'' which I think as long as you are on top of and are continuously picking him up on his lack of table manners then I would have thought he should eventually get.
My parents divorced when I was 3 and I remember that I behaved differently at my dad's house than I did at my mums. I knew that I had to be really tidy at my dad's but my mum's not so much. I knew that I always had to be home on time for my mum but my dad was always more relaxed about that.
So yes I'd say definitely children can have different boundaries and routines at different houses and as long as you are consistent with your rules they should accept them and learn to adapt between homes.

[NotaDisneyMum]

I think it's the idea of 'constantly picking him up' on his table manners that is bothering me tbh - he's only here 4 days every fortnight, and mealtimes are an important part of family life for us. We don't want him to dread every meal - but the alternative seems to be him growing up with abysmal manners and increasing indigestion for me as I turn a blind eye!

[Bonsoir]

NADM - I'll be brutally honest and say that I think you are expecting an awful lot of an 8.5 year old boy if you think he is going to wash his ears, nails, teeth etc without being prompted!

[Kaluki]

Bonsoir - my 8.5 year old does.

[MrsGypsy]

I think there's some boys that will brush their teeth, wash, change into pyjamas etc unprompted. And then there's the other 90%.....(which includes my DSS and my DS).

I think you and DP need to agree what is the most important thing to focus on, and then stick to one thing eg., table manners, otherwise DSS will be "nagged at" the entire time he's with you. My DSS had awful table manners, and we continually had to tell him "food to mouth not mouth to food", "slow down, no one's going to take your food away" and then my personal favourite "all joints on the table will be carved" and knock his elbow off the table. Sounds a bit brutal, but we were consistent and fair - rules applied to DS as well, and now we have two boys that we can take out for dinner.

If you have to give him a time out for bad table manners so be it. These are the rules for your house, and DSS has to live with them. He sounds young for his age, so I expect you will have to continue to remind him about cleaning etc., but that's practically normal at that age.

[purpleroses]

I've usually managed to make it quite lighthearted picking them up on table manners - both my DCs and DP's DS seem to quite enjoy the challenge of being awarded marks out of 10. They laugh when they get a really low mark - or even award themselves one if the food falls on their lap or somethhing, and smile when I give them a 10. And ocassionally they'll tell me (or DP!) that we get a 2 out of 10 or something if we make a mess of something. The other DCs join in with enthusiasm. I don't think if you keep it light hearted that they start dreading mealtimes.

[Kaluki]

"All joints on the table will be carved!"
I love that one - can't wait to use it

[purpleroses]

"All joints on the table will be carved!"
My granny used to say that one to me

[ladygagoo]

We just have DSS living with us - he is 7. Step-parenting aside I think boys develop at different rates and some will 'get' things later than others. DSS will do teeth and dress in the morning. He has an electric toothbrush which does 30 second timings for each quarter of the mouth - getting him this really made a difference in getting him to do teeth properly. Clothes I always put them out the night before - I can't abide the idea of him messing up all his stuff to find the elusive fave t-shirt. I know I will have to let him choose stuff soon.

As for meal-times, my DP is super hot on manners and eating nicely. So DSS has always had this drummed into him. I wouldn't hesitate on making threats of something being withdrawn if he wouldn't eat nicely (like pudding or a turn on the wii) but in all honesty it rarely comes up. Normally the main thing is trying to fit too large a morsel in at once - yuck.

I really feel for you NADM. I consider myself lucky in that DSS lives here apart from one overnight a fortnight, so we get to influence everything (apparently ex-MIL is unhappy that DSS is too polite ) so you can't win them all.

Maybe its worth trying an electric toothbrush (or timer) ; a sequence for washing with a flannel (laminated list stuck on the tiles?) and a points system for eating nicely and properly which leads to loss of pudding if score is too low. Do stick with it though however disheartening it feels. Imagine if you just let it all go, what sort of a child he would turn into with no positive influences at all.

[NotaDisneyMum]

we continually had to tell him "food to mouth not mouth to food", "slow down, no one's going to take your food away" and then my personal favourite "all joints on the table will be carved" and knock his elbow off the table. Sounds a bit brutal, but we were consistent and fair - rules applied to DS as well, and now we have two boys that we can take out for dinner.

If you have to give him a time out for bad table manners so be it. These are the rules for your house, and DSS has to live with them.

Both DP and I fear that if we did take this approach, DSS would "vote with his feet" and no longer visit.
His contact visits, despite being court ordered, are offered as an option by his mum - and his sister has already opted out, because DP dared to parent her

That's really the crux of the matter, I think - we are scared to parent the way we naturally would because DSS has a choice about whether to spend time with us or not, and why would he want to if we are disciplining him?

After one weekend when he was put in a timeout by DP for deliberately ignoring my simple request not to disturb his Dad while on the phone - he went home and described our house as a "child prison" to his mum, sister, grandma and teachers . Of course, he got the full sympathy treatment from them - and the option of never coming back. We were supposed to be grateful that he had decided to see us again, despite the way we treated him

[MrsGypsy]

Oh dear, NADM that does make it a bit more difficult! I completely understand where you're coming from - we had refusals later on when DSS was about 13, as he said he didn't have any friends where we live (I solved that, but DH was SO upset).

You can't ignore the table manners. You just can't, for two reasons: firstly, they won't improve by themselves, and you (and others) will always be appalled by them. Secondly, it's just not who you are - you clearly don't eat like that! So you have to think how to do it, without DSS having a hissy fit and a strop. Otherwise, you'll end up pandering to his every wish and desire, and you will indeed become Disney parents, afraid of upsetting the little darling.

One suggestion might be to make sure that each weekend DSS gets to do something different, or special. Maybe it's specific "Dad time" so that he and your DP go swimming/watch/play football/wash the car. And maybe it's "Family time", which means you go along too for bowling/the cinema/a local attraction - things that he can talk about as having done (not least of course, so that he can say them in front of his sister and maybe prompt her into having some kind of relationship with her Dad). That takes a bit of focus off him being pulled up for table manners.

A little bit of reinforcement is also a good idea. In the early days, when DSS had the irritating habit of saying "I'm bored" when in reality he couldn't be bothered to do anything, I would always say at the end of the weekend/holiday in an annoyingly bright and cheery voice "what was the best bit of the weekend/holiday?" and force the little bastard my DSS into admitting that the bowling/cinema/popcorn was good. We then would say something else was the best and force a little "argument" into which moment/activity was better. It's also a nice way to review the time spent together.

It's just a thought - it might help you not to be held for ransom by your DSS. I hope neither you nor your DP are treading on eggshells - you have to have a normal family life, or you're going to dread his visits.

[thewickedestSMinthewest]

I'm not t agood person to advise as DSD has voted with her feet but as an aside. I work full time and my DD is with her dad once a week and every other weekend. As a result I have four oppotunities a month to sit down with my DD at a table for dinner time. Her Childminder (whilst fabulous in many other ways) doesn't prioristise table manners and lord knows her dad doesn't so although i am the RP - I also struggle and feel like every meal time I do have with her is a constant barrage of nagging.

I think it's all about habits, children (and adults!) are creatures of habit and unless they have the opportunity to regularly carry out tasks such as eating properly ect it is very difficult for them