Husband at wits end - how do i help?

[hellswelshy]

Hi, I just wanted to ask if anyone had any wisdom or any similar experiences with this. Me and my husband got together around 6months after he and his ex partner (not married) split up. They lived up North together with their 1yr old daughter and after the split returned to his hometown in Wales. We met during the months that followed the split, during which his ex wanted him back. He declined, and stayed with me. We have now been married for 4 years and have two children of our own.
She has always made things difficult for him, particuarly moneywise, as she is a spendthrift, frequently getting into debt then demanding more money from him. Payments were organised via csa from the start. My husband has always paid his way.

She has now married and moved even further North, and has another child. She didnt discuss or negotiate move with my husband, so now he has an even bigger journey than before to see his daughter. Apart from this his money via csa has been increased, as he has had a recent pay rise, and they have refused to help him with travel costs.

He is now in a situation that he is struggling to see how he can afford to visit his daughter on a regular basis, if his maintenance has increased and he has to pay the travel costs himself. We have a mortgage and we both work hard to get by for our children. HIs ex doesnt work, (she has decided to go back to college...)and i amm just so amazed at the lack of empathy she has for him. She would honestly not care if he never saw his daughter again, as long has she had the money in her pocket every month.

I am struggling with the situation, as even though its been tough over the years, and we have always had to deal with her demands and tantrums, we have always made it work for his daughters sake. Now he is lower than ive ever seen him and wants to 'give up' as he cant see a solution. He is exhausted by it all, and it hurts like mad as he is the kindest, loving man ive ever met and he adores his daughter. I dont know what to do for the best, am i causing more pain by encouraging him to fight on to see her? It becomes such an issue at times and affects us as a family but i hate to see him so upset. All he wants to do is see her as often as possible, but with the huge distance now plus travelling costs, i dont know what will happen. He is afraid of growing apart from her.
Any advice would be greatfully accepted, as i dont have any friends who have step children or are in this kind of situation. Thanks.

[catsmother]

There isn't a magic answer I'm afraid but we have had years of this (8 and counting). My DP's ex moved - not for work reasons, or for housing affordability reasons - 140 miles away from him when they split and though she initially agreed to meet halfway, she used the distance as "punishment" whenever she didn't get her own way and/or more money on demand. Eventually, this became "if you want to see them, come and get them" and we were lumbered with ALL the expense despite not being responsible for any part of the distance.

The CSA will, IIRC, make an "allowance" for travel under certain circumstances but as you already know it's crap. When we looked into it, it worked out to 5p in the pound ... and this concession was only awarded if you didn't already qualify for any other sort of reduction, e.g. for 52 or more overnight stays. This means that 2 men, on exactly the same salary but where 1 lives round the corner, and the other miles away - pay the same CSA payment, no matter what travel expense must be incurred if contact is to be maintained. They don't look at who moved away, or why (appreciate there can be genuine reasons for doing so) and if you do qualify for a travel reduction it's as good as useless. Quite obviously, with the best will in the world, you can't get blood out of a stone and it's no use the ex braying that "if you want to see them enough you'll find the money" when all your income is accounted for with essential bills. Inevitably, in order to maintain contact in situations like this where there isn't "spare" money - contact is either adversely affected, and/or, the second family's standard of living is adversely affected as cuts have to be made to pay for petrol and maintain a car which otherwise wouldn't be essential. I really do feel very strongly that there should be something in "the system" to address this particular issue .... I know it's a grey area and individual circumstances can differ hugely, but unless there is a genuine and compelling reason for children to be moved a significant distance from their "absent" parent, the parent with care should be compelled to help facilitate future contact, and if they're not prepared to do that, they should stay put. The fact there really isn't anything very much you can do is, IMO, akin to "the system" stating that the relationship bewteen a separated father (usually) and his children is less important than allowing the mother to do exactly as she wants.

The only thing your DH might be able to do is to apply for a contact order (he can self rep to avoid legal fees) in which he also requests that the ex meets him halfway so his expense is reduced. There's obviously no guarantee this would necessarily be granted - though I do know of some dads who've obtained such stipulations in their orders. He would also need to bear in mind that courts are notoriously lax in penalising mothers who break contact orders, so he might find that even if such an order was granted, she'd be making excuses not to meet him and he'd have to return to court in the hope a stern telling off would ensure her co-operation. (It's very rare for courts to impose other punishments).

I sympathise hugely with the issue of encouraging him - or not - to fight this sort of thing. Apart from the financial issues, it's also hugely emotionally draining and can go on for years, with no reward at the end. On one side you have the argument that it's important for him to try everything he can so his daughter - when she's older - can be reassured by the fact her dad was fighting for her all the while her mother was being obstructive/unhelpful .... but on the other hand, you also have to consider the human cost to him, to you and to your children. It's very very difficult sometimes to know what to do for the best.

It's not clear whether the ex in this case is deliberately obstructive (as ours was) or whether she's "just" lazy and irresponsible, and allows contact so long as your DH makes all the effort. If it's the latter, then that's slightly more encouraging as DH should at least be able to maintain some sort of contact even if it's much reduced in frequency. He may have to accept that he only sees his daughter a handful of times a year (depending on distance and expense) which I know is crap, but is still better than nothing. He would then still be able to write to her, call her, Skpe her etc. (In our case, all attempts by my DP at one stage to contact his kids was literally obstructed - messages not passed on, phones slammed down & left off the hook, letters which "disappeared" etc.)

[hellswelshy]

Hi, thanks so much for your reply catsmother, i really apppreciate your take on it. Its really interesting and comforting to know im not the only person to feel this way. Its hard to explain it to anybody else, as you dont want to moan all the time, and after all the person who it hits the hardest is the parent of the child - in this case my husband - but as i say, seeing him upset, just hurts me so much especially as i feel powerless to help.

His ex is a mixture of selfish, thoughtless, and very greedy. She is also bitter i think, at the way things turned out as the initial split was down to her (an affair) and i think she thought at the time my good natured husband would forgive and forget. It was a big shock to her when he didnt go back to her and she has used the situation ever since to portray herself as the single mother whose partner walked out on her and their small daughter. Not many people know the truth about their split, and my husband is too much of a gentleman to ever drag it all up again. She (his ex) feels as my husband left in the first place she has every right to do absolutely nothing to help maintain contact, apart from pick up the phone occasionally when he rings and 'let' him speak to his daughter!

Regarding the CSA, youre right, the system is very flawed indeed. I feel strongly about the fact that the financial side of things is the only factor involved, and contact has nothing at all to do with it. I also feel it very unfair that my husband is working hard in his work and obtaining promotions, to see her pocket extra money for his efforts. I dont begrudge my stepdaughter anything and have always agreed he should pay towards his daughters upbringing, but for the amount he has to pay to be measured on his hard work doesnt seem fair somehow. His ex is a student (her choice) with a working husband and another child too, so really we are in the same situation..apart from the fact i have to work to get by, which i am happy to do. I feel she is getting rewarded and making the maintenance payments a part of her lifestyle, whereas we are on a tight budget and dont spend huge amounts on our children. As you say, on top of the maintenance he has to now fork out for travel costs, and they just assume he can afford that.

As you say there is no magic solution, and in the end we just have to do our best, do what we can, and try not to dwell on it. I cant help thinking his ex inevitably will wear my husband down, he is not superman and can only do so much as well as work full time, and keep our family running too. My heart breaks though for him, and other families like us and you, it really does. Thank you again, i cant tell you how much it helped!!

[pleasechange]

"She would honestly not care if he never saw his daughter again, as long has she had the money in her pocket every month".

This sounds oh so familiar, as we've had much of the same with DH's ex from day one (she had an affair, and chucked him out, so no reason for this malice other than her own spite)

Any letters DH has written have been duly ignored, and she limits contact to the strict hours set in place by the courts 10 years ago, despite one of the children being 15.

I have no experience of the distance issue as catsmother has, and she makes a number of good points. Wanted to empathise though, as it must be very difficult indeed. Good luck

[catsmother]

This issue has been (one of) my biggest bugbears over the years because it's pure spite and so morally wrong, yet there really isn't anything you can do except appeal to the ex's better nature (ha ha ha ha) or apply to court (very long odds). As far as I'm concerned the thousands of pounds we've paid out in the last 8 years because the ex refuses to shift herself even one inch down the road equates to debt/lack of holiday/lack of house maintenance & decoration/lack of activities for our daughter (take your pick !). The skids' lifestyle doesn't suffer one bit, nor does the ex's ... life carries on as normal for them while we have had to watch the expense of fetching and carrying the skids increase year by year (I could weep at current petrol prices). However, we have invariably had to miss out (see list above) in order that DP still sees his kids.

No doubt the "you knew what you were getting into" brigade will think differently if they're reading this, but no actually, I did NOT know that the ex would take this stance when I first got together with DP - I never imagined she would be so selfish. On top of that, as a single mum myself for 7 years I had always tried to help my ex see our son even though he had moved away .... I was less concerned with scoring points and more concerned about meeting my ex at a suitable point so our son didn't end up travelling late at night. My DP's ex has no such qualms.

As if refusing to meet wasn't bad enough she has regularly added insult to injury over the years by sticking the boot in whenever possible. For example, a favourite was letting DP get to within 10 minutes drive of their house before texting him that they didn't want to come - thus a 240 mile round wasted trip. Another - when he understandably complained at her lack of help - was to tell him that if he cared "enough" he'd pay whatever it took to see the kids (with no regard whatsoever for our commitments) and passed that little gem onto the skids. Then there was the time when we discovered the ex was out for the day along the route DP used to take the skids home .... she refused to tell him exactly where she was so he could drop the skids off with her because that'd be doing him a "favour". Instead, you had the utterly ridiculous situation of 2 cars - probably 5 mins apart - making the same journey, along the same stretch of road, 1 of them completely unnecessarily. Another time, DP was passing the house on his way home from an overnight business trip up north and asked to collect the skids a day early as it was school holidays. The ex refused this because, again, it was seen as "helping" him and instead, he had to drive back the next day thus wasting more time and petrol due to her spite. I could write a bloody book about it !

Sorry for hijacking somewhat but I do feel very bitter about it because DP is completely over a barrel.

[Lasvegas]

hellswelshy here is our story. DH ex wife moved to be with her lover, so for last 9 years my DH has travelled 600 miles (round trip) every other weekend, and spent money on 2 nights in a hotel to see his kids. For last year it has been every three weeks.

Now finally he is going every 6 weeks.

It has taken a toll financially and physically on us. He travels internationally for work and commutes each day. The weekends when he was at home were spent doing loads in house and garden to accomodate the fact he was at home only half the weekends of the year. I work full time with awful commute so had to do shopping housework all by myself on weekends he was away. Instead of quality time with DD.

If I had my time again I wouldn't have encouraged him as I think all the stress had seriously affected his health. i also think ex wife (who doesn't work) would have brought kids to us if we had not given in.

[hellswelshy]

Thanks for your stories both. I cant believe what people have to go through, and of course while there are some who may say we knew what we were getting into - no this is not the case! Like you catsmother i just assumed that the inevitable split bitterness would fade, and some humanity would shine through...how wrong i was!! Despite of her having another child of her own my husbands ex totally disregards our life and plans and holidays, and expects my husband to prioritise travelling to fetch his daughter above everything else! I have had moments of pure rage, especially since having my children. She even made a fuss when my newborn daughter was in hospital, and my husband explained he couldnt make it due to the circumstances........

The only thing that keeps me going is the fact that my husband is a man in a million, and I value him more than any amount of money. As i pointed out to him, money will always get spent by spendthrifts such as she, but you cant buy happiness that we have.
I so sympathise with your situations, Lasvegas that sounds like you have been a rock for your partner. I hope time will make it easier for us all:)

[Greeninkmama]

Hellswelshy, that sounds very tricky. If your husband moved away first, then the ExW probably feels that the journeys are his problem. And since he had already moved away, she didn't feel an obligation to take his journeys into account when deciding where to live herself.

I can understand that way of thinking - you would have to be pretty saintly to do the driving if your DP moved away from you in the first place. I am not criticising, btw, because my DH did the same. We do ALL the driving.

I think if the ExW was really thinking about her DC's needs, then she would be facilitating the journeys. But the way things stand, your DH has to decide what is practical. That almost certainly means seeing his daughter less than he would like. You and he just need to work out what you can manage - half the holidays and once in addition per half term (when your DH gets a hotel room for a night) might work.

[cobbledtogether]

Speaking as someone whose DH used to do 4 x 150 mile trips every other weekend (pick up, bring back, drop off, come back) I can really sympathise as the costs really do add up, especially now fuel is so expensive. Not only that, but its exhausting as well.
When we had our own DCs we ended up relocating to be nearer DBD as it was just not practical to do that travelling when there was another baby around. Now she's a teenager I do wonder why we bothered as she's so busy with her social life, we don't see her that often.

[Steepedinalcohol]

Ok, I do sympathise as it is really hard when you aren't living near your child. But perhaps I could help with how his ex might be viewing things. I agree with Greeninkmama - it was him who put the distance there in the first place. Maybe she felt he moved away and left her with a baby to bring up largely on her own, and if he'd been putting his child first he would have stayed local.

And with the financial side of things, it's his responsibility as well as hers to provide for their daughter. And if that means that he gets promotions and earns more then I can totally see why she would expect him to increase his payments. I work really hard, I have three jobs - I'm doing that to provide for my dd, doesn't any parent? I don't really see the link between him working hard and your feeling that it's not right for him to do that and then pay some of it in maintenance. That money is for your dsd, not for her mum, so if you don't begrudge her anything I'm not sure I can relate to you feeling like you do.

She's not offering help with travelling costs - did he offer help with childcare costs when he moved away and wasn't available to help with that? Is she only now able to go to college because their child is older and she has some support or time available? Had she wanted to go to college or go to work when their child was little but couldn't because he'd moved away or wasn't helping with the costs?

I also feel the person this hits the hardest isn't either parent, it's the child. They're the one with truly no control over things.

I do think he should question the decision not to help with travel costs as I thought they did make an allowance for that. The CSA are notorious for getting things wrong. And I don't want to come across as being unsympathetic, because I know how hard it is to deal with a difficult ex-wife, but I'm not convinced at the moment that she is being entirely unreasonable, but appreciate that there may be lots more to the history that I know.

[pleasechange]

steepedinalcohol - I really don't get the point that there is a direct correlation between the amount of additional money earned and the amount of money spent on child (except at poverty levels obviously). If I earn an extra bonus for example, I am likely to save it/buy some nice cushions for front room etc etc.

If the child's father has extra money from a payrise, then I don't see what's wrong with giving him the opportunity to spend it on the child himself (as in this case, for example, it's clear the PWC has sufficient money not to work)

And what about the situation where the ex has other children as well. I doubt if she's day "well child 1's father is now contributing an extra £x for him, so I'll spend that on child 1 not also on children 2 and 3". Presumably she's giving them a similar lifestyle, so really any extra money the child's father gives her will be spent across her whole family. I don't see why the child's father should have to do this.

[Steepedinalcohol]

I think getting a bonus is very different. And I could see that in a less acrimonious setting an ex could say "well you earn more, but as I've moved further away it'll cost you more in petrol so we'll leave things as they are", but if he's earning more then his maintenance payments should increase accordingly as a general rule.

I think whether she has sufficient money not to work or otherwise is irrelevant, as are the other children. The way I always looked at it was that 15% (or whatever the figure is) of h's salary would go to dsd's mum as a minimum. What she did with it was down to her.

[pleasechange]

"What she did with it was down to her" - in law yes, but I wouldn't blame OP for having an issue with it

[Laulalou]

Hells welshy - it sounds an awful situation and I really admire that you do not resent a single penny of the money your husband pays towards his daughter, especailly when the wonderful CSA will think that child is 'worth' more than yours.

I have no advice at all for you but wish you luck.

A general comment though in response to some comments on this thread is this man is TRYING to be dad to his child and instead is - as most dad's are - being treated as this woman's personal banker. It is no wonder dad's have to dress up as Batman and protest to get their cases heard when for them, there is very little justice!!!

[hellswelshy]

Thanks all for your comments. Id just like to respond to some of the points raised here. My husband moved away from his daughter for the following reason: his daughter was born in HIS hometown originally, and when she was a few months old, his ex persuaded him to move to her hometown over 200miles away to be nearer her family. After being there 8 months she had an affair and the relationship ended. Naturally as my husband had no friends and no life in this place, he moved back to his hometown for his family and friends support and his old job. I must stress this wasnt an easy decision, but as you can imagine in a situation like this after a relationship ended so bitterly, he needed his family around him.
He has always provided for his daughter, initially paying the full mortgage whilst their property was up for sale, even though this left him homeless and lodging with family. He has also always bought clothes and anything needed on top of maintenance, as well as always paying travel costs. Bear in mind, his ex would never even travel half an hour outside her own town to help with access visit to avoid traffic queues even after my husband had travelled 3hours already. I dont see how that is putting her daughter first, to me that is selfishness on her part.
I appreciate you dont know the whole history of my situation, but i do not agree that my husbands promotions and hard work should justify his ex partner reaping the benefits of that for the next ten years - the csa system should be such that the amount of maintenance is calculated on how old the child is as well as the amount a person earns and be tapered accordingly. I dont begrudge his daughter anything, but i believe my husband is father to all his children, and this system seems to make sure more and more money is paid to non resident child (even though she has two parents supporting her also)and our other children arent really considered as much.

I can assure you he would do anything for his daughter - hence the reason despite such obstructive and difficult behaviour from her mother - he is still very close to her and sees her as often as he possibly can. There have been many very difficult moments, but throughout it all, he has remained calm and acted with dignity. He couldnt possibly do any more than hes doing, and he shouldnt be punished for the fact the relationship didnt work out and he wanted a new life too.

phew!! Its different for everyone, i respect that, and we all have different views. I dont for one minute think that all fathers are the innocent victims, but in this case i have certainly seen things from the mans point of view. Thanks guys!!

[Greeninkmama]

I don't think there is justice when it comes to split parenting, Laulalou - and it is really hard for everyone to rise above the negative parts and work together for the sake of the child. You definitely need a BM who acknowledges the importance of the father-child bond in order for things to work out well.

But in the end you have to deal with the situation you are in - and if the BM is unreasonable or doesn't care about the access, then it is really hard. Assessing honestly what you can practically do seems to be the best start - and the financial costs, length of journey and other obligations all have to be factored in. That probably means the NRP accepting seeing the child less often than they both need and want - a painful process.

[Greeninkmama]

Hellswelshy x-posted with. And do hope you noticed that in my post I pointed out my DH was the one to move away so I am definitely not criticising yours!

I gave up justifying my DH, btw, because people do tend to get terribly black and white about the man in these situations. And it annoys me too!

[hellswelshy]

Thanks Greeninkmama, i didnt at all think anybody was criticising honestly, its hard because everybodys situation is different. The bare facts are that my husband did move away but for very good reasons. Even though the maintenance payments increasing has been difficult to swallow, its not really the issue. If there were no travelling involved then the amount of maintenance wouldnt come into it, but paying travel costs on top is a serious financial burden.
I hope we can see my stepdaughter as often as possible, but the feeling i get is that now she has a stepfather, her mother isnt that bothered about her maintaining contact with my husband....sort of like now she has 'replaced' the father figure with her new husband, its not really important to her.
Difficult to know how to support your loved one, if you know deep down that his efforts are going to cost him dearly financially and emotionally.

[Steepedinalcohol]

I don't understand why the CSA have said they won't help with the travel costs, when their website quite clearly says they do. Have you taken this up with them?

[catsmother]

Steeped, when my partner enquired about this - admittedly 3 or 4 years ago, the CSA told him they couldn't award him a "variation" for his not inconsiderable travel exepnses because he was already getting a reduction in respect of his children staying 52 nights a year. Stupidly, he'd have got this exact same reduction if they lived round the corner, so I really don't see what that has to do with it. Clearly, parents who have to pay travel costs to actually see their kids have significant extra expense in addition to the cost of having them stay. He was also told, at that time, that if he was awarded a variation for travel it'd be 5p in the pound - which is an insult when you've effectively been forced to bear this cost.

The CSA site says this:



" What factors might we take account of for non-resident parents?
If you are a non-resident parent, we might look at the amount of child maintenance again if you have special expenses of more than £10 a week, or £15 if your income is £200 or more, for:

keeping in contact with your children (for example, if the parent with care has moved a long way away). "

... I think the important word to note is "might". I can't actually find anything concrete on the site which confirms the "5p in the £" suggestion is correct .... but from experience, it's also true to say that the info and action (or not) you get from the CSA is extremely haphazard and depends who you talk to on the day. Even asking for stuff in writing isn't failsafe ... my DP has had decisions made by managers completely tipped on their heads despite being assured they were "final" ... you end up not knowing who or what to believe.

I suspect in Hells' case, the CSA would probably fall back on the fact it was the parent without care who moved, not the parent with care. Sad but true .... in my partner's experience, it seems the CSA are extremely reluctant to get involved with any case that are even slightly oustide the "norm" and will put all sorts of barriers in the way to dissuade you from pressing home the issue. My partner has, in the past, had to cite their own literature to them in order to persuade them that something could and should be done. Mr Hells may have an outside chance of getting them to reconsider the travel reduction if he explained his circumstances surrounding the move (e.g. a specialised job relocation v staying put and being out of work) but I don't hold out a lot of hope as the formulaic system they use is so black and white and takes very little (if any) notice of individual backgrounds. In any event, if you're spending £200 a month on travel and get £10 back it's really not going to help very much is it ?

[Steepedinalcohol]

Although he did move when they split up, it's the ex who has moved even further away now and that's what's causing the financial pressure - that's my reading of it anyway.

That isn't a reduction of much is it? I'm always inclined to look on the positive and not give up before I've tried - but it almost doesn't seem worth the aggravation.

I know how incompetent they are. They refused to give xh a reduction for overnight stays as his ex refused to confirm that dsd was with us for overnights. Complete lies - but they were willing to take her at face value and not xh.

[elephantjelly]

I think if the dad moved so far away from his daughter in the first place that sends one message. It does not sound like the mother has been unreasonable to move to where she wants. Dad walked away. Mum is free to do as she pleases. Dad and family could always move closer to the daughter if they really care that much.

[catsmother]

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. If you read this story properly, the OP's DH and his ex wife split up as a result of her having an affair .... hardly him "walking away". The OP also mentioned that her DH moved back to his hometown for "very good reasons" (admittedly we don't know what). To blithely state that "dad and family could always move closer to the daughter if they really care that much" is insulting, over simplistic and ignorant. My partner's ex has said exactly the same thing to him when he protested about the time and money he now has to spend to see his kids, even though SHE moved the children 140 miles away .... it is nothing to do with caring "that much" and very often to do with employment and the cost of housing. There simply aren't the jobs close to my partner's children - not all skills and experience transfer easily anywhere else in the UK - certain jobs tend to be clustered in particular areas.

The OP has described her husband as an extremely caring dad who's exhausted and hurt because he can't easily see his child. I'm sure if there was a way to do so he'd have done it by now but there are any number of factors why people simply can't up sticks and move these days - negative equity is another one and never mind the upheaval on any other children or partners. When you have children you are not, morally, (or at least you shouldn't be) free to do what you please. Compassionate parents recognise that it's in a child's best interests to maintain a relationship with BOTH parents and the responsible ones set aside gripes they have with their exes and instead do all they can to help facilitate the relationship between father and child. The ex may want to live in a particular location but she has a responsibility to work with her ex to ensure their daughter doesn't lose contact with her dad. The women (and men) who refuse to do this are utterly selfish and care more about scoring points off their ex than the children IMO.

[Junction3]

I think my only reservation about this (and I'm trying to be careful that there isn't any of my own stuff in here) is that he did move away when the baby was little, and left her to cope on her own. How much did he see his dd, how much was he involved, what sort of problems did him not being around the corner to do shared parenting leave her with.

In a way it's irrelevant and maybe we shouldn't bang on about it because the issue is actually the op's dh not being able to afford the travelling costs now, but I'd agree that it might go some way to explain why his ex is like she is.

[hellswelshy]

Making the assumption that moving nearer his daughter would show he cares elephantjelly is short sighted, and offensive. Are you saying that my husband should live near his openly bitter and resentful ex partner so that he can see his daughter? To live in a part of the country that is unfamiliar, and he has no friends or family in? To move his children up there too? All because his ex had an affair and messed up the relationship and has been making him pay for him having the guts to walk away over 7 years ago? Quite obviously my husband cares deeply, otherwise he wouldnt have fought for the last 7 years to see his daughter!

Relationships end, break down, move on, thats life isnt it? It is not a crime to end a relationship, it is to continue that bitterness and spite for your own ends, without really thinking about whats best for the child. To the other positive contributions - and bear in mind i didnt come here to argue about whos right and wrong - thanks for the support, i just needed some advice to deal with the situation as i dont know anyone with any similar experiences..

[Junction3]

How far is the journey? And how often does he have to make it?