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Mumsnet/KIDS support session on challenging behaviour: Thursday September 20, 9pm

(122 Posts)
RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 17-Sep-12 10:01:09

Hello there,

We're pleased to announce that the third support session with members of KIDS staff will be held on Thursday September 20 between 9pm amd 10pm (in the hope that this will avoid most kids' bed-times!). The topic will be challenging behaviour. (You can see the first session here and the second session here.)

KIDS is a national charity working with disabled children, young people and their families across England. The KIDS representative at this session will be Kim Steele (KIDS Development Coordinator for the south-east).

The idea of these support sessions is to complement the advice and support that Special Needs posters already give each other with the insight and experience of people working for an organisation in the field. We hope that the session will pull together perspectives and advice from MNers and from KIDS staff, and that the thread will serve as a reference point for posters looking for advice about behaviour.

It would be great to have as many of you as possible join us 'live' on Thursday evening, but if you can't make it, please also post up any advance questions for here.

We'd really appreciate your feedback on these sessions, so if you can find the time to fill in a survey after the session, that would be great - it's open to lurkers as well as posters - to everyone who has seen the thread.

Thanks,
MNHQ

justaboutiswarm Wed 19-Sep-12 05:25:44

"Okay, so I suppose the first thing I'd like to discuss is what is challenging behaviour. Is it restricted to behaviour someone else can't manage, or behaviour that a child themselves can't manage, or are both the same thing but just dealt with differently?"

Interesting question, Star. I think challenging behaviour is whatever makes a child hard to manage in a social or group setting.
That's very different from educational difficulties or developmental delay.

justaboutiswarm Wed 19-Sep-12 07:08:03

(and by social I include family)

HotheadPaisan Wed 19-Sep-12 07:27:56

Hitting, kicking, spitting, verbal aggression, needling DS2 and never going out have been our main issues.

Then there's all the mainstream inclusion meaning do what everyone else does discussion.

Challenging behaviour is behaviour which may put themselves or others at risk, or which may prevent the use of ordinary community facilities or a normal home life. This behaviour may include aggression, self injury, stereotyped behaviour or disruptive and destructive behaviours. These behaviours are not under the control of the individual concerned and are largely due to their lack of ability to communicate.

Challenging behaviour is defined as:

“Culturally abnormal behaviour(s) of such an intensity, frequency or duration that the physical safety of the person or others is likely to be placed in serious jeopardy, or behaviour which is likely to seriously limit use of, or result in the person being denied access to, ordinary community facilities.”

HTH x

justaboutiswarm Wed 19-Sep-12 11:49:03

That's a great definition, devient, where is it from?

charlieandlola Wed 19-Sep-12 19:31:50

I'm in ! Dd is always awful at transitions, so takes about half aterm to settle. Her TA's and I compare bruises.

colditz Wed 19-Sep-12 20:41:30

To be honest, the bigger challanging behavior problems are the quiet ones .... Biting his own arms, not engaging, ignoring conversational topics in order to talk about video games... Getting teachers to recognise this as a real problem is very hard. If he hit other people as often as he hurts himself, he would have a one to one at school, but because its only him, he's left to it

redwhiteandblueeyedsusan Wed 19-Sep-12 22:43:27

why do they behave at school (not hitting and screaming but not fully participating) and exhibit challenging behaviour at home? (despite using the same strategies i would use in school?)
why is it they sometimes work and at other times they are as much use as a chocolate teapot. and why is it always our fault? (bad parents/bad homelife/mother works full time/mother at home babying child)

SurvivalOfTheUnfittest Wed 19-Sep-12 22:43:49

Devient have you got lots of symbols/photos (depending on your DS's level of development) for schedules? Do you have rewards for completing small tasks shown in symbol/photo form (Now: socks, next: bubbles - or whatever is the best motivator at the time) and repeat for the next item of clothes. Is it noise of the activity that DS can not tolerate? If so, have you tried ear defenders? I'm sure you've been through all these ideas, but feel free to PM me if you think I can offer any more as it's part of my job.

BumptiousandBustly Thu 20-Sep-12 06:14:37

I want to ask how I teach him impulse control. I.e. he knows absolutely about crossing roads and won't cross without holding my hand, BUT half way across he could see a leaf and it would wipe out all thoughts of the road, cars etc and he would just run to get it, in front of traffic.

He does things like that a lot and also self edits instructions, so don't lock the door becomes 'don't lock the door but try it and if it's not stiff it's fine'

There seems to be no learning about these things and they put him in danger, I would really appreciate any suggestions. Ds is 4 and asd.

BumptiousandBustly Thu 20-Sep-12 06:18:42

Also HOW do you explain strangers and not talking to them to a child who can only understand absolutes? I can't say never talk to anyone mummy hasn't told you is ok, as that would exclude most teachers at school and he can't cope with more complex definition than that! This is a serious problem as he is very passive and goes off and talks to strangers all the time! So is very vulnerable! (NB I do watch him and stop him talking to these people but nothing stops him trying!)

PipinJo Thu 20-Sep-12 09:07:16

What can be done to educate all professionals and families/carers involved with our ASD children to learn pre warning triggers, esculation stage and de-esculation techneques and not end up in crisis and as I have read one horror story on mumsnet i.e. 6 year old being restrained because the CB was handled so wrongly and esculated to man handling (not even correct safe restraint) by lack of knowledge in this area when working with ASD dc on daily basis! Prevention is the key but professionals only seem to respond to crisis and 3-4 staff restraining a child is not only dangerous to the health (physical and psychological) of the dc but could be avoided initially with correct training and plans in place for each child.
We need national Policies...national training and make it law so the child has a legal right and ensuring protection and safety of the dc is paramount...possibly a NICE type guidlines written to cover health/education and social settings, ensuring consistency accross all settings.

whatthewhatthebleep Thu 20-Sep-12 10:30:16

totally agree pipinjo A thorough, intensive program nationally which addresses ASD and associated areas of difficulty for our kids. Just being listened to about possible triggers and behaviours for an individual child.
I have discussed, exhaustively, the idiosyincracies of my DS, his possible triggers, environmental needs, what upsets him, etc , etc. It seems to fall on deaf ears too often and I get the call to pick him up or come into school to sort things out...again and again. Or he comes home and has a horrible day and difficulty going to move his bowels because he was unable to at school and held it in, causing many issues with behaviour for him and leading to huge distress and upset for him, that nobody has listened to me when I explained this trigger area and not recognised this possible for him when in school...(he needs to strip off and often sit in the loo for 20mins or more)...just the behaviour and ending up in negative situations because of the lack of attention to triggers, difficulties, etc
Managing behaviour but lacking the wherewithall to identify (or even try) to address the actual issue for the child. The lack of understanding or any respect for our kids is huge.
Our kids don't want to behave badly, they don't seek to be difficult. It too often does eventually lead to just feeling anger because the lack of understanding and support has built up to unmanageable levels. My DS is refusing school entirely now and this is a big part of why he is feeling so defeated and lost there, with nobody he has been able to identify with who has tried to understand him.

He is scared of being there, has nobody to turn to, nobody understanding him and he is totally lost and very vulnerable. (He told me he had asked the staff to use quieter voices because he was finding it hard to listen...they laughed at him and walked away!!!)His anxieties are at unmanageable levels and he's now having to take medication for this!!
The schools focus is his behaviour...my focus is the lack of understanding and inability of the school to support him or respect his differences.
Every child needs balance within any situation. It doesn't seem to happen and I believe many of my DS issues outwith our home are entirely due to ignorance and lack of knowledge...never mind basic respect for him and his needs.
The damage to our kids is huge imo and needs serious thought and deed if it is ever to improve for them.

HotheadPaisan Thu 20-Sep-12 11:37:21

Being impulsive is still an issue here, it comes from nowhere of course so difficult to predict/ prevent. Constant vigilance and intervention is the only answer atm. Also, transitions can be hyper despite preparation.

Totally agree about de-escalation, people tend to plough on upping the ante, this has completely the opposite of the desired effect, just makes everything worse.

Can I ask a question for discussion?

Two children find concentrating difficult and a particular maths makes them anxious. Child A mutters through it, tuts, flicks another child's ear, rips another child's work and spits at the teacher to try and avoid the work. Child B keeps quiet, says very little, tunes out but tries to give the illusion of compliance and gets away with minimum.

Which one has challenging behaviour?

What if child B subsequently went home and trashed his bedroom?

Could the strategies for dealing with child A and B ever be the same and if so, what could they be?

PipinJo Thu 20-Sep-12 13:41:38

CB is any behaviour that stops learning in this situ so both.
different triggers as one attention maintained other sensory to zone out to cope with overload behaviour
I wouldnt like to guess as not a BCBA

Yes I think so too Pipin, but Child B's behaviour tends not to be dealt with in my experience, or at least assumed to be due to lack of intelligence with outbursts at home being supported by sending the parents on parenting courses.

PipinJo Thu 20-Sep-12 16:32:33

What happens do someone come and answer questions...never taken part in anything before?

Yes my ds was the NV dc always laughing (anxiety) in class...HT said he would love 30 ds's in class as so well behaved! Did the HT know if my ds was NV and unable to learn in that MS setting?

Ds ex GM a HT of a Primary school for over 40 years wept when she learnt about ABA as it dawned on her how many of her dc she let down (through no fault of her own of course).

Anther dc who sat there twiddling string in air that was so well behaved was dc a challenge too?

In poverty area by me every parent gets sent on a parenting course...discrimination or what! I would have loved to have gone and learnt a few bits and challenged back their ideas but my postcode was wrong even though I am in worse poverty forced by SNs...but that is another thread.

LynetteScavo England Thu 20-Sep-12 18:55:17

Marking my place. I maybe posting under a different name later on. smile

Harrypie Thu 20-Sep-12 19:19:42

Thanks. Will watch with interest. My challenging behaviour is quite low level. An absolute refusal at times to do what is bein asked eg. Get dressed. Answer, no. She is 6 and I find her attitude impossibly difficult at times. Have taken her to childminder in Pjs twice this term and dd does not seem to care at all.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 20-Sep-12 20:32:42

Hi PipinJo - yes, the idea is that Kim will come on at 9pm and get stuck in to the questions.

Thanks
MNHQ

KimSteele Thu 20-Sep-12 20:42:54

test

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 20-Sep-12 20:58:14

Welcome to Kim, who'll be ready to dive in to your questions soon.

Hi Kim! smile

KimSteele Thu 20-Sep-12 21:01:44

Hi mumsnet I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself and my colleague. I am Kim Steele and I am the developemnt co-ordinator for KIDS south east region and Heather Penhaligon who is KIDS short breaks co-ordinator. Within our organisation part of Heather and my role is to support our various respite services for disabled children and young people. This includes teaching behaviour support strategies and implementation of behaviour plans which aim to meet individual needs whilst in our care.
We look forward to joining this live chat and answer as many questions as we can.

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