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DH to give up work and claim benefits?

(173 Posts)
ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:00:50

We have 4 dcs 11,6,3 and 8m.

All dcs have a genetic condition. Dd1 also has a heart problem and ds1 has many issues as well as genetic prob (allergies/ migraine/speech probs)
All 3 older dcs have reduced mobility and suffer pain fatigue and frequent joint dislocations.
Dd1 and ds1 receive dla.

Dd2 was also diagnosed with t1 diabetes last week.dh has been off work with no pay as I can't manage everything-the appts/physio and now inj and caring for the baby.

I don't drive and have no family who can help.up untill now dh has always worked but now I really need him here to help me with dcs-if they all have a bad day I can't manage

Dh really doesn't want to give up his job but I can't see any other way we can manage with the dcs disabilities.he said he needs to work or he will go mad at home.he wants to go back next week but I want him to give up so we can care for dcs together full time.

I feel so desperate and I need him to help me

CloudsAndTrees Tue 08-Jan-13 10:05:31

YABVU. If your family can contribute to supporting itself then it should. It would be very irresponsible of you to rely on the state when you have chosen to have four children.

Things are bound to be harder for you at the moment because you still have a very young baby, but as your youngest child gets older, things will become easier. It would be very sad if your DH has given up his job and them finds himself unable to find employment because of such a long break when your baby is older.

ZillionChocolate Tue 08-Jan-13 10:06:43

Aren't there problems within your relationship? To do with money? I don't think I can answer this question without the context of all the other stuff that's going on.

He wouldn't get benefits if he gave up work voluntarily. Can you break down the tasks you need help with and come up with other solutions? For example, do you have home start in your area? They could offer you a volunteer for a couple of hours a week. Could you take driving lessons in the evening, to make hospital trips easier? Could you get a Saturday job to get out the house for a while?

I do sympathise, but it's at the end of the holidays when all four have been at home. Things might be easier when the older two are back at school. Your DH giving up work is not the answer, especially when he said he'd hate being at home. You sound overwhelmed, but there are other solutions.

Fakebook Tue 08-Jan-13 10:10:01

Sorry you're in this position, but I think YABU. Are the elder two children in school? Or are they off ill? Could you find a part time job too and share the time at home with your DH?

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 10:10:47

OK firstly I think you may get flamed here which I think would be cruel and unnecessary so maybe she's may be a better board?

Secondly I can see why you want him to but if he gives up work rather than losing his job you may not be eligible for some benefits? I don't know the ins and outs so get advice.

Many people in your situation end up having to have both parents at home to cope and that may be the case for you, but its early days with the diabetes diagnosis so maybe thast will get easier to manage?

Have you been in touch with your HV and as to see if they can offer any support? I know, I know its almost impossible to get any help but maybe even a home start volunteer would help? Or if dh continues to work could you afford to pay for a mothers help for a bit? Also some colleges need placements for childcare students etc, not great but its ASN extra pair of hands tho I understand the mothers help or a student may not be ideal given the extra needs your children have.

And thirdly (((ariane))) have a hug as I think you need it xxx

Sorry I can't be more helpful sad

TeWiSavesTheDay Tue 08-Jan-13 10:11:25

He wouldn't be unreasonable to become a carer, but financially you would probably be much worse off.

What about hiring a mother's help, or sn carer?

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:14:47

Yes there have been problems in the relationship but dd2 got v v unwell just after I posted about that so thing took a back seat as she was so ill.

I just can't cope by myself, the dcs dislocate joints all the time, dd1 faints a lot due to chest/heart issues, dd2 keeps having hypos.dcs can't walk far so we will be virtually housebound a lot of the time (we were struggling already). There are so many appts physio/gosh/speech therapy etc etc and I really can't see a way to cope on my own if I'm holding /feeding baby and dcs dislocate/faint/are in pain/hypo I don't have enough hands to deal with everything.

Benefits people said we would be allowed as ds1 on higher rate (dd2 would too) so effectively I would be carer for ds1 and dh carer for dd2 so wouldn't be forced to work but dh is unsure but I can't manage on my own dcs health needs too great.

If you're struggling so much why have another baby?. You need to take responsibility for your own choices, not expect the rest of us to pay for them because "you can't cope", and i speak as somone with two disabled children
YABU sorry

strumpetpumpkin Tue 08-Jan-13 10:16:52

is there any way he can find a job where he can work from home part time or reduce his hours or get something part time. It might be worth talking to the job centre or citizens advice about it.

I dont think youre unreasonable to want it. Its tough. Would you be able to go back to work and he do the childcare to see how much it is for one person.

Is there any way you can get respite or help. Is 2c3 at nursery?

HormonalHousewife Tue 08-Jan-13 10:17:53

can you learn to drive ?

get your Dh to teach you assuming he has a car and can drive.

This sounds really tough for you - but I'm not sure giving up a good job is the right way forward at this minute although I can see totally why you want him around.

expatinscotland Tue 08-Jan-13 10:17:59

I think given the economic climate and this government it would be very unwise for him to give up work.

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:18:51

Older dcs are part time school as so many appts/physio and health problems quite severe.

We tried to work out if we could afford a mothers help but it was too much so that's not an option.

Dh and I have the same condition as dcs (they are so severe as inherited from both of us) so I struggle with my own health which is making things even harder.

Up untill now I have struggled and dh gas worked but its too much now.ds2 still bf so I couldn't work at the moment.

This is very much the last resort we just don't know what else to do

Garnier Tue 08-Jan-13 10:20:26

Don't be ridiculous OP. Your DH is a very lucky man to have a job.

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:20:35

I tried driving lessons last year-many lessons cancelled due to dcs ill/in hosp so didn't get far.also I had problems with my neck so a lot of the time couldn't manage it was a disaster I thought itd help but its yet another thing I failed at.

How did you manage before??

squeakytoy Tue 08-Jan-13 10:21:45

Of course you are being unreasonable.

Floralnomad Tue 08-Jan-13 10:22:26

If you already have problems in your relationship it could be a recipe for disaster and you could end up finding yourself as a lone parent , I think you need to look at other ways of coping . Presumably they are not always ill and do go to school / nursery. I know a few people who have children with multiple disabilities and although it is hard work there is a lot of help out there if you can access it .

VinegarTits Tue 08-Jan-13 10:22:41

what sparklyvampire said

specialsubject Tue 08-Jan-13 10:24:38

I have to say that the fourth baby was not a great decision, and maybe the third. ( keep up with a blog from someone with two disabled children, and she says that much as she wanted four they had to recognise that it was not practical) What's done is done - so as you made this choice you must now do something about it.

is there a charity for the condition? Is there a local volunteer organisation who could help? Even someone round for a few hours a week would make a difference. Also are you claiming all the disability benefits for the children?

there is a solution out there. Good luck.

rubyslippers Tue 08-Jan-13 10:25:07

He shouldn't give up his job unless you would be able to go to work instead and swap roles

you do sound exhausted

practical things to do are checking you are getting all the benefits you are entitled to; home start volunteer could probably be a good idea seeing as you have such a young baby; speak to SS and see if you can get more support with all the various medical appts etc (maybe transport?)

BarredfromhavingStella Tue 08-Jan-13 10:25:16

This may sound cruel but I don't understand why with your own health problems & those of your DC that you decided to have 4 of them-agree with those who say YABU & should now take responsibility for those actions.

I appreciate how hard your life must be but it is in essence a situation of your own making.

VinegarTits Tue 08-Jan-13 10:25:40

just seen your last post

sorry by why did you go on the have 4 children knowing you both have a genetic condition that would be passed on? confused

TeWiSavesTheDay Tue 08-Jan-13 10:26:22

What does your DH do?

The problem with him quitting is it makes the family very, very vulnerable. The cuts are hitting families like yours very hard and just because benefits say you could both be carer doesn't mean there won't be a policy change in a few years time that leaves you totally fucked over.

If your DH stays in work he has a change to move his career further, earn more so that you can hire more help...

I think you would be better to post in SN children as posters there will have a better idea of what kind of support you might be able to ask for from the council/charities.

Is there a charity specific to your dcs condition? I would definitely start looking there for advice.

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:27:34

We were not really managing before as such, dh was taking a huge amount of time off for hosp appts or when dcs were in hosp like last week he was in for the week with dd2.

We have tried so hard and its not me being selfish its that I genuinely am concerned I alone cannot give dcs the care they need with their conditions.there need to be 2 of us to look after them properly.

Hammy02 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:28:05

vinegar I was going to say exactly the same thing. I can't believe anyone would do that.

This is totally the wrong board for this subject op. You are going to get flammed and get no practical support or advice.

Can you ask for this to be moved to Special Needs?

What you are going through is very difficult and there is not going to be a one fit solution.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 08-Jan-13 10:30:00

If you weren't managing before, then why did you choose to bring a fourth child into that, especially knowing that s/he is likely to have a genetic condition.

Sorry to be harsh, but that does sound selfish.

Fakebook Tue 08-Jan-13 10:30:42

Is breast feeding the only thing holding you back from taking a part time job to get out of the house? You can express or start bottle feeding to make things easier for yourself. Share the load of work between yourself and your DH.

aufaniae Tue 08-Jan-13 10:30:46

OP, I really think AIBU is the wrong place to post. You will get a load of arseholes agressive people who just want a fight flaming you, and I suspect it could end up bing quite upsetting.

They'll tell you it's all your own fault for having 4 kids, but really, what's the point in saying that? The kids exist now, what you're asking is for advice on what to do with your current situation, not whether you should have made the choices you did in before! You can't change the past!

If you genuinely want advice I suggest you post on the SN board or somewhere kinder.

And please, remember you don't need to justify yourself to anyone here. We are just randoms on the internet!

ILoveTIFFANY Tue 08-Jan-13 10:30:46

So you knew that all four children would inherit this illness you both have.... And that it would be MORE severe for them??

I'm speechless at that alone.....

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 10:31:18

I can understand him not wanting to give up work as he'd go crazy at home . . . but you must also be going crazy at home! Dealing with all that is so hard and it seems unfair that its all on you.

Is there any way you can get a break from it? A part time job perhaps with a nanny? Or would a nanny who would be willing to deal with all of the issues be impossible to find?

I realise you might not earn enough to cover the childcare but it might help save your sanity.

CheCazzo Tue 08-Jan-13 10:31:22

I'm so glad you've been asked shy on earth - just WHY - you had 4 children knowing you were passing on a lifetime of ill health. Why would you do that to them and yourself? Please explain to help me understand.

Nancy66 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:31:48

The fact is the OP HAS four children - so scolding her for a decision she can't reverse isn't very helpful.

sleepyhead Tue 08-Jan-13 10:32:12

What on earth is the point of questioning the op's decision (if it was one, contraception does fail etc etc) to have her children?

They are here now! She can't exactly send them back hmm.

Op, in light of your previous threads this sounds like it would be a really bad idea. Your relationship is shakey at best and iirc your dh works for his brother and has issues with letting down his family - he's never going to go for it.

aufaniae Tue 08-Jan-13 10:33:09

ILoveTIFFANY you're having a go at a family who are struggling with disabilities. Nice. hmm

quoteunquote Tue 08-Jan-13 10:34:00

hmm at some of the responses,

I think you need to get your HV round, and have a chat, get advice on putting a care plan together for each child, if done should highlight the areas which need extra energy.

You do need help, so that the children are getting the help that they need, one person is unlikely to be able to meet four children with disabilities needs,

I doubt your husband giving up work will end well, you will find it hard to maintain a relationship and be working together 24hr a day, It can be very stressful, even when it's not dealing your own children,

are you getting any respite?

strumpetpumpkin Tue 08-Jan-13 10:35:02

I think I would claim DLA for the children and use the money to help pay for a carer/nanny

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:35:10

With dd1 we had no idea there were genetic probs they tested dh (as he has some symptoms) after dd dx.ds1 being ill caused them to check again biopsy dh etc they said it was 50-50 chance. Dd2 was born with joints was then we found out I had same condition (I'm not as bad as dcs buts with both of us having it dcs are really poorly).
Ds2 not planned but that's another story.

The main concern in my mind is not will I be better/worse off.

Not am I right/wrong to have had 4 disabled dcs/claim benefits for this but can I meet their need/keep them safe on my own-and I can't I know if for example dd1 collapes I have the others as well to look after, sometimes dd1 uses a wheelchair yet others still have double buggy as can't walk far I can't push them all I don't know how I can manage.

In hindsight yes 4 dcs with problems too many but I can't go back in time can I.

zeeboo Tue 08-Jan-13 10:35:30

I'll answer the OP later but to be fair I have a genetic condition and we now know that 3 of the 4 definitely have it and the 4th probably will.
We didnt find out about the condition until after I'd had the 4th which triggered it in me and now the kids disabilities are becoming obvious.
It's not always as simple as knowing in advance and planning a family size around disability.

mindosa Tue 08-Jan-13 10:35:57

It wouldnt be wise to try and deny him the dignity of work and being at the mercy of the state is not a good position to be in, in the current climate.

I appreciate that you must find it terribly hard with the children and their various conditions but you probably need to try and get on top of your entitlements so I would contact your local HV first and go from there.

I would also contact a relevant charity and see if you can get some respite hours.

Your baby is 8 months so I would consider weaning to the bottle if you are finding that very time consuming.

TinyDancingHoofer Tue 08-Jan-13 10:36:12

YABU! And ridiculously irresponsible to have so many children when you can't even manage your own needs. You decided to have children and chances are you knew they would have this genetic condition so i kind of think you should suck it up.

yellowsheep Tue 08-Jan-13 10:37:21

Dh friend gave up work to be the carer for disabled son. They have a large family and he could register as the carer as he and his wife also had children under 5

There marriage has struggled significantly since he is at home all day and he resents his wife for that decision financially they are better off but emotionally they most certainly are not...

PutOnAHappyFace Tue 08-Jan-13 10:37:21

I have a DC with a genetic condition which has meant we wouldnt have more and watch them suffer so yes I do feel strongly like a few other posters about why OP has had 4.

Might not be the place to pull op up on this but it does cause a strong reaction in some people.

ILoveTIFFANY Tue 08-Jan-13 10:37:39

No I'm asking a question!

Because I was wondering what you were thinking of regarding a coping strategy whilst expecting these children, and how it differs to the position op is now in!!

For example... Had you planned on having Au pair? Had you thought a family member might help or a friend... Has the planned set up now changed?

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 10:37:39

There is no point questioning why she has four children and frankly its not anyones business but the op's.

As for saying she shouldn't have had them because they would have son's/genetic condition, who is anyone to judge?

Op I really think you will get better advice/support on the special needs boards.

I hope someone has some good ideas, I think HV is first port of call and if you have a social worker for the children?

purrpurr Tue 08-Jan-13 10:37:45

I also don't understand why you had 4 children. Are you planning to have more?

I thought DLA was to help contribute towards living costs - as two of your children have been awarded DLA, can you not combine these payments and use them to pay for a carer to come in a few times a week? What are these payments currently being used for?

If the true issue is that you are unable to cope, it may be more beneficial for you to return to a full-time role, and your DH should become the full-time carer. I know you said something about him feeling he'd go mad staying at home, which is really nice for him to say to you when you're the one stuck there, isn't it? Maybe you're going mad. Maybe you need the luxury of escaping to a job that lets you, I don't know, have a wee occasionally without having to worry, or sit and enjoy a nice cup of tea and a magazine at lunch.

You can't just give it all up and live on the state. It doesn't work like that.

NewYearNewNN Tue 08-Jan-13 10:38:49

I really think you should ask for this thread to be moved out of AIBU as you will get a lot of responses like ^^.

TinyDancingHoofer Tue 08-Jan-13 10:39:22

Maybe i came across a bit harsh. I think you can manage but you are just finding it hard. Sometimes life gets hard, especially when having to deal with shitty health stuff but your husband quitting work is not a solution.

Can you get respite care?

NewYearNewNN Tue 08-Jan-13 10:39:46

I mean TinyDancingHoofers btw.

NewYearNewNN Tue 08-Jan-13 10:40:13

Oh bums xposted. blush

I think with the benefit of hindsight there are lots of things the OP would do differently, but the children are all here now and have needs that need care.

I wouldn't ask your DH to give up work, purely because I think relying on the state right now makes your family very vulnerable. However, you do need support. I'd second contacting Home Start to see if they can help. And talking to your HV or GP to see if they can recommend any way of getting support for you.

ILoveTIFFANY Tue 08-Jan-13 10:41:14

Op.... An au pair is cheaper

Also, if he gives up work then it's no benefits for 26 weeks I think!! And even then, he will have to be searching for another if he went in jsa!

Or were you thinking he becomes a 'carer'?

ihearsounds Tue 08-Jan-13 10:42:03

Contact SS to find out what help is available.
contact homestart and hv to find out what help is available.
What type of school do the children attend? They should be able to put in referals for extra help.
Have you asked if physio can make home visits, if they wont why not, becuase they can.
There aree lots of things tthqt you can do before you ask hubby to give up work. That is a short term solution to a long term problem. Yes he might be able to get carers, but you do realise that there are changes coming to dla and carers?
If you cannot afford to pay for mumshelp or something for a few hours a week, hten this also suggests that if he gives up work you wont be in a finacially stable situation. He hass already said that he wont be able to cope being at home. This could lead to him leaving you because it does put stress onto an already stressful situation, and then how would you cope as a single parent who would be expected to look after the children and work?

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:42:27

Most of dla currently used for transport (taxis) to all tha appts dcs have.

My sister used to help me but she has epilepsy and has not been well so can no longer help.

Maybe I should move this to sn how do I do that.I just wanted some help not to be told off.
I just want to make sure dcs have level of care they need to be safe and kept well and with me on my own they are not.

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:43:07

i take its eds type 3? with pots?
very hard to deal with on a day to day basis

Feminine Tue 08-Jan-13 10:43:27

I understand that your children are here now etc...but why on earth did you have 4 didn't you say you knew they would inherit your disability?

Its seems you really need help and I'm sorry to hear things are so bad that you would consider living off the state confused

Please seek help from suggestions given here. smile

Good luck.

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 10:43:58

YANBU at all although I can understand your DH's reluctance.

I am a lone parent with an autistic son and recently gave up work after being employed for 30 years as I was finding it so hard. It was without doubt the best decision I have made. I am no longer exhausted all the time, DS gets support he needs from me and I can be at the school as soon as they need me if required.

All I will say is that being on benefits is not great, financially I am worse off but it's a trade off between that and constant exhaustion leading to work errors.

I would advise thinking it all through, I took 18months before deciding it was the only way of caring for my son effectively and maintaining some sanity.

Those of you flaming the OP need to wind your necks in.....try being in her shoes before hoiking up the judgey pants.

You DO know that accidents happen don't you? Don't be so judgemental.

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 10:44:55

Oh and fwiw when I did make the decision to give up work I didn't face any sanctions.....even the DWP could see why I was doing it.

akaemmafrost Tue 08-Jan-13 10:45:24

She's got four dc, she can't give them back. Asking why she had them is utterly pointless and judgemental. I am sure she loves her kids as much as any of you love yours and would not wish them not to be here. None of you have any right to ask that question. They are her CHILDREN and probably pretty happy to be here themselves.

Eg. "OPs dc, your parents had you and passed on a genetic condition to you, do you wish they hadn't bothered?". What do you imagine their answer will be?

They are here and they are children and asking that is a disgusting question to ask. There is also at least one poster on this thread whose history could mean they could be asked why THEY had so many dc in their circumstances.

My ds was being investigated for ASD which has a possible genetic component when I became pregnant with my second child. Anyone going to ask me the same?

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:45:31

its really hard to sort out all the appointments, i have been juggling appointments myself this morning, 3 in one day often happens, but at least i can drive. xxxxxxxxxxxx

AmberLeaf Tue 08-Jan-13 10:45:53

OP click on 'report' on your post and in the box that comes up ask MNHQ to move your thread into special needs section.

You need advice not judgement which is on the whole what you will get in AIBU.

squeakytoy Tue 08-Jan-13 10:46:03

Bad form for looking back at a posters history or not, it does help put a bit of perspective to a thread.

I would certainly not be looking further into ivf treatment.

I am also confused, as previously you were a single parent with 3 children, so is your husband the father of the fourth child as well? I ask this as it would be even more unreasonable for you to expect him to give up his job.

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:46:16

Yes eds 3 with pots she has awful problems and just collapses.

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:46:36

support is what you need, not being asked why she had 4. not helpful

PootlePosyPerkin Tue 08-Jan-13 10:47:31

Putting aside the issue of whether or not it was wise to have four children in the circumstances, I can totally understand why you want the extra help & support of your DH at home with you.

It must be very difficult coping with the severe ill-health of one child, let alone four whilst you have health problems yourself. I understand why, as a human being in a less than great situation, you need help.

However, jobs are hard to come by at the moment and the reality is that benefits do not make you rich (or even comfortable financially). Is it possible that being so much worse off financially each month could actually make things harder for you as a family?

I honestly would not judge your DH for giving up work to help care for the children - I can completely see how full-time care for four disabled/ill children would require two people (especially when those two people have health problems of their own).

Have you discussed this properly as a couple? You need to be entirely sure that you will manage on benefits & that your DH even wants to be a full-time Carer (not everyone can or does). If this were my family, I think I would prefer for either one of us to work full-time and keep the money coming in or for both of us to work part-time and be SAHP part-time. I think that if I had four DC who are going through lots of pain, illness, hospital appointments etc. I would want to be able to afford to treat them sometimes - IME benefits barely pay the essential bills.

Best of luck with it OP. I genuinely wish you & your family well.

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 10:47:36

Op to get your thread moved report it and ask mnhq, I am sure they will oblige smile

threesocksmorgan Tue 08-Jan-13 10:47:42

wow mn is weird flaming you.
I think a lot of people don't realise how hard it is to look after one ill/disabled child let alone 3

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:47:45

mine does too sad thought i recognised the symptoms. have you got good consultants support? Dr Ninis at st marys paddington is fab for pots

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 10:48:22

Jesus Christ some of the responses on this thread! Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves!

Ephiny Tue 08-Jan-13 10:49:01

I think it would be a bad idea to give up work. Living on benefits is a pretty uncertain lifestyle choice, you never know how the rules and amounts may change in the future, and it can be very difficult to get back into work after a period of unemployment.

threesocksmorgan Tue 08-Jan-13 10:49:14

if mn hq do move your thread, please make sure any post by me are removed first, I don't post in the sn topic

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 08-Jan-13 10:49:32

YABU. Sorry but you are.

I can see why you want him to though. I think speaking to a health visitor and getting some kind of care plan/home help might be very beneficial.

Vagaceratops Tue 08-Jan-13 10:49:58

I think some people have got their judgy pants on so tight its effecting the blood flow to their heads.

YANBU for him to want to give his job up OP, you must be bloody exhausted.

I really think you should post on the SN board, you will get support there rather than a flaming.

Chubfuddler Tue 08-Jan-13 10:50:25

Giving up paid employment to live on benefits, even with the very justified reasons you have, is a terrible idea in this economic climate. Asking your husband to do so when he doesn't want to and to do so would compound the stress you are both under is madness.

You need more assistance but it doesn't have to he from your husband. As your children are so young your HV should be first point of co tact.

Is there a charity related to the specific genetic disorder that could help you?

And I agree you should get this thread moved to SN.

Vagaceratops Tue 08-Jan-13 10:50:31

Have your spoken to SS about a carers assessment?

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 08-Jan-13 10:50:35

Also...what is the point is asking why OP has had 4 children. She can hardly return them can she!

CloudsAndTrees Tue 08-Jan-13 10:50:40

Of course the children can't be put back, but so many people wondering why OP and her DH have got themselves into this position might make them realise that they have to take responsibility for the choices they made.

You make your bed, you lie in it.

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:51:01

Yes we got back together and got married in june.

Things have been difficult we have had many many problems I'm not all means look at previous posts if it helps you to untangle the mess that is my life then give the appropriate response.

Booyhoo Tue 08-Jan-13 10:51:38

fucking hell. some real thick as shit responses to this thread!

OP i'd have this moved to SN or somehwere you might get proper advice.

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 10:51:39

Oh I see....they CHOSE to have disabled children. Riiiight!

How lovely you are Clouds.

Floggingmolly Tue 08-Jan-13 10:52:02

Op is looking into IVF treatment?????. Ffs hmm

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 10:52:38

Autism has a genetic component.....I chose to have a child....I am on benefits.....would you like to judge me too?

threesocksmorgan Tue 08-Jan-13 10:52:49

ffs how nasty.
mn is mad. some show off boasts about how much money she has and has sympathy.
here a poster is at the end of their tether and gets vile posts.

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 08-Jan-13 10:52:50

OP seriously,I think before your DH (congratulations on your marriage by the way) does give up work.all avenues should be explored. It may well be that the best thing is for him to care for the children alongside you,but SS may well be able to help you and he won't need to.

Feminine Tue 08-Jan-13 10:52:56

I think it is a valid point to ask why?

We all have compassion here (mostly) but as op had a taste of how trying her life was with 2/3 why make it more difficult?

I am really sympathetic to you op but there comes a point in life when you must take on board the fact that you also have to make sensible choices.

I genuinely don't believe 'accidents' happen that often.

Not saying that is in the case here, obviously but I'm sick of hearing it on MN.

akaemmafrost Tue 08-Jan-13 10:53:32

You sound really lovely clouds.

IMO there is no place for the phrase "you made your bed now lie in it" with regards to disabled children.


JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 10:53:38

The IVF is irrelevant as it might give them the chance of a child without a disability.....still wont change the fact that two children are disabled.

rubyslippers Tue 08-Jan-13 10:54:06

there has been some helpful suggestions but AIBU is never going to be a cake walk is it?

hopefully this will get moved and things will simmer down

CloudsAndTrees Tue 08-Jan-13 10:54:13

They didn't choose disabled children, but they chose to have a fourth child when by the OPs own admission she was already not coping.

The fact that I can see common sense doesn't have a bearing on how lovely I am or am not.

PaellaUmbrella Tue 08-Jan-13 10:54:16

The OP didn't ask if she had been unreasonable to have 4 children...

YANBU for wanting the extra support at home. But your DH has a job that he doesn't want to give up - I think he might regret it in the future should he resign and then find it difficult to re-enter the workplace.

Is there a halfway measure? Could he go part-time, or work from home? Have you explored all avenues of what other help may be available to you - charity grants to fund a carer for example?

Good luck

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:54:46

i had 3 not realising there was a problem or that it was was genetic, only got picked up after 3rd

akaemmafrost Tue 08-Jan-13 10:55:44

Using the phrase "you made your bed now lie in it" tells me the kind of person you are clouds.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 08-Jan-13 10:56:32

The sort of person that will take responsibility for her own actions perhaps?

ImAlpharius Tue 08-Jan-13 10:56:46

I do not think your DH giving up work would be a good idea in your situation, given the histroy, which I think is very important here, won't heis family just see it as more excuse to sponge money from your family, will he still be expected to help out at his db's business but with no financial recompense at all? I think looking for respite , outside help etc would be a much better idea, and if you learn to drive you will be able to free a lot of the money used for taxis, maybe find an evenming driving instuctor that won't affect hospital appointment times.

akaemmafrost Tue 08-Jan-13 10:56:54


IceTheChristmasKateMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 08-Jan-13 10:57:11

Hi everyone,

Thanks to all those who brought this thread to our attention. We're going to move this thread out of AIBU now, as we do not feel it's the best place for it.

imogengladhart Tue 08-Jan-13 10:57:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floggingmolly Tue 08-Jan-13 10:57:22

The IVF is not irrelevant, given that op is posting how she can't cope now, and proposing that her DH gives up work to live off the state in order to help her.
Who would decide to throw another baby into that mix?

Ephiny Tue 08-Jan-13 10:58:47

IVF, seriously? shock

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 10:58:50

As I said OP, don't do anything without looking at all the options. It took me 18 months of reduced hours etc before I realised that combining work with my son's support needs was not going to work. It's not great being on benefits but I don't have any doubt about the fact I made the right decision.

You and your DH need to make the decision which suits your family best. Do SS give you any support (I know it's hard to get this but might be worth asking)?

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 10:59:48

for support do please join the hypermoboility syndrome association and the pots uk and eds groups. lots of help there smile feel free to message me too. Its really hard having disabled kids and being poorly yourself. i have considered giving up my work, but i can work around the appointments and from home but it takes organisation worthy of the army planning!

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 11:00:17

Oh thank goodness its being moved smile

Thanks mnhq smile

imogengladhart Tue 08-Jan-13 11:00:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ILoveTIFFANY Tue 08-Jan-13 11:03:12

Are you trying for baby number 5 op?

I asked why and gave the resin I asked.... It shed light on the situation... Flame me if you like! Op answered my question but it got lost

Here it is.... Op went ahead with her pregnancies as at that time she had her sister for help/support. Her sister got sick and can no linger help

HecatePropolos Tue 08-Jan-13 11:03:22

Can you go to social services and tell them just how much you are struggling and ask them for help?

They are supposed to be there to help people in situations like yours!

Can you get direct payments? Are you getting all the help for the children that they are entitled to due to their disabilities? Are you having all the assistance you are entitled to?

You need to perhaps ask for a social worker, ask for assessments, etc. Find out if there are any voluntary groups out there. People who give a little of their time to help others, that sort of thing.

I don't think that your husband resigning will help you, given that he doesn't want to and there are relationship problems. You will probably find that being together all the time will actually make them worse, not better. And what if he's there but not helping? how will you feel then? Then of course there would be the money worries.

What you are saying is that you feel like you are drowning and you need help, and you've identified something you think may be a lifeline for you. I don't think it will be. I think you would be better served finding out what support is available outside the family.

I have a great deal of sympathy for you. I know how hard it is when you are a person with disabilities trying to be the carer for people with disabilities!

But him giving up work will create more problems than it is likely to solve.

mindosa Tue 08-Jan-13 11:04:22

OP I dont know anything about your life but please think long and hard about relying on the state - these allowances are only going one way and thats down. At least with one parent working you can be financially secure and that is no small thing.
Ignore the why did you have children posters but do consider whether having more is a good idea given your situation

PessaryPam Tue 08-Jan-13 11:04:57

5madthings There is no point questioning why she has four children and frankly its not anyones business but the op's.

This would be true 5mad apart from the small fact that we pay for it via our taxes.

I am also struggling as to why DC3 & 4 were conceived.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 11:05:40

Threesocks. What? You want your posts removed if this thread is put in special needs? Why!?

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:06:30

I am going just to offer hugs.

We also have 4 dcs: one has Aspergers and one Autism, they attend special schools; one has a genetic condition, significant language impiriment and possible ASD, he attend the local MS right now. The other seems OK disorder-wise.

I am their carer but DH has depression and at times I absolutely wish we could pack it all in and say sod it. DH was working FT and made redundant so set up self employed, he now works from home and studies and for now that works well- he's here to meet school taxis etc if I am on the long round of appointments and meetings, but still working and bringing in an income. Without that we'd end up in homeless accomodation which would probably mean putting 2 boys in foster until we were allocated social housing- no ta.

But you must be exhausted and I feel for you, hugs X

Oh- and we are just finding it's a genetic condition now, when ds1 is 13! Appointment due soon for final test results. We had no clue about that when the boys were all born (they are quite close together) but I don't think I would plan to have any more and have considered being sterilised, except 6 weeks without lifting or driving may as well be 6 weeks flying for all it is possible!

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 11:06:31

The ivf thing although irrelevant now was because ds2 was very ill and nearly didn't make it at birth and I had been sterilised at time of cs.

Had pnd and regretted op and pretty much had a breakdown as I had thought he would die and I'd never hold another baby that is why in my depressed state I was looking at ivf sad

akaemmafrost Tue 08-Jan-13 11:06:49

"I am also struggling as to why dc3 and 4 were conceived".

Tough. Get over it.

HecatePropolos Tue 08-Jan-13 11:06:56

Oh, but if you are thinking of another child, I would in the kindest way possible, really strongly advise you to put that on hold right now.

you aren't coping with what's on your plate right now. To add another item on to your plate may well tip you over the edge. Sort out what you're currently dealing with and then is a better time to start thinking about taking more things on.

HecatePropolos Tue 08-Jan-13 11:08:04


Have you thought about counselling? If you're not having it already. It sounds like you really need some support and a safe space to just let it all out.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 11:08:29

There's some right bitches on this thread!

WilsonFrickett Tue 08-Jan-13 11:09:25

I think you need to speak to SS and see if you can get access to a disability social worker. First thing is to check you're getting everything you're entitled to, including respite, etc. I completely understand the desire for DH to stop work, but if he doesn't want to, I can't see that working long term. (My DH would be useless at home full time, it's just not 'him'. It's not me either really, but have been able to find a compromise through freelancing.)

I also very much agree with pp who say giving up work will make your family incredibly vulnerable. Even if you can make the sums work now, there's no guarantee they'll continue to work in a few months time, the way things are going. Pushing your family into poverty won't help your situation. sad

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 11:10:34

Oh bollocks pessary most peoples taxes don't even cover their own coasts is schooling, NHS use, etc its not like you are subbing the op personally and ultimately the children are here now, the situation is what is is. Or perhaps you would like the op to give her children up to their state? That would cost far more of taxpayers money...

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:11:40

Oh and why do we have 4- £60k income (I live in Wales, that's quite good) looking as if it was only going to rise if anything..... so security to make our dream of a large family come true.

Then ds3's severe autism dx, meaning I have to be a Carer; then a redundancy

Life shits on people, sometimes. But I'd never wish my boys away, they are my joy and nothing but a blessing.

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 11:12:21

Hope you are okay OP, it sounds as though you are having a really crap time? Whereabouts in the country are you? There might well be local family friendly support groups you can go along to.

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:14:18

Also- more usefully- please feel free to PM me if you want a chat and I will if I can give advice or put you in touch with anyone as disability (specifically ASD but that means I know the systems well) is my field as well as most of my life X

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 11:15:57

hypermobility assocation uk and pots uk are on facebooksmile

Goldmandra Tue 08-Jan-13 11:15:58

Just to redress the balance a little I would like to point out that the OP's children have just as much right to exist as any other child, regardless of the disabilities they may have. People with disabling genetic conditions can and do make a positive contribution to our society.

To tell the OP that her offspring should not have been allowed to be born is unspeakably cruel. She is simply trying to work out how best to meet all of their needs for the short time that they are all very young.

OP this is a very difficult time for you and I am sure that the crass comments on here haven't helped you. I think you need to take a little time to get used to the new situation and then talk it over again with your DH. Things may look different in a month or so and you and your DH might both regret a decision made in the heat of the moment.

Contact your health visitor and ask her to refer you to Home Start or you can contact them and refer yourself.

I hope things start to feel more manageable soon smile

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 11:16:58

Nw london.

Looked for eds/pots/diabetes groups nearby but couldn't find any.

I just feel desperate its all too much.

akaemmafrost Tue 08-Jan-13 11:17:39

Great post Goldmandra.

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 11:17:48

Another shout for Home Start from me....they are fabulous.

LemonBreeland Tue 08-Jan-13 11:19:34

OP not sure if anyone has mnetioned already but is there surestart or similar in your area who could help you out. Someone to come to your house and help you with the DC a few hours a week.

Or as someone else said SS. There should be help you can get, and your HV could be good start to point you in the right direction.

YOur Dh giving up his job just does not seem the best solution right now.

Jenski Tue 08-Jan-13 11:20:56

I haven't read all the responses but guessing some not very kind.

If the problem is getting to appointments, would it not be cheaper in the long term for you to learn to drive than for your DH to give up work. Do you have a family car?

I think that you need to be looking long term rather than short term. It may be easier now if your Dh gives up work but claiming benefits will not be good for his self-esteem, or for when he might want to return to work.

I also think that your DH will be miserable and possibly blame you when you are all stuck in the house on a rainy day with no money.

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:21:29

I agree with Home Start- worked for them once and then ahd them to help until ds4 turned school age, was a massive help.

Also consider whether you may benefit from counselling etc. I am not ashamed to say that ADs changed everything for me. I'd either not be here now or have spent a long time in hospital without them, after ds4's SN was picked up.

And before packing in work, try part time; employers will have to at least consider his request to go part time, and it might well be enough of a compromise to keep you afloat. You might even find that if he gave up say 10 hours and you found some work for ten hours, the break for you was enough to keep you afloat: it's certainly something I hope to try this year if I can find the work.

Chubfuddler Tue 08-Jan-13 11:21:31

A national charity may be able to help you with applications for grants/DLA for the others or general advice though.

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:22:41

And my friend has EDS, I will ask her which group she sues as she goes off to conferences etc

fuzzpig Tue 08-Jan-13 11:23:07

It sounds like a really rough situation. But benefits are a trap - I think if your DH gives up work it could be really really hard to get out of that trap in the future.

I have considered similar recently - I was diagnosed with a disability last year and may give up my lovely job as soon as DH finds one (he has just had surgery and recovered from a 2 year injury) - but then I worry that I won't be able to physically cope with being a SAHM either, at least not while DS is still little and not in FT school. It's tempting to just want DH to stay home or maybe just get a PT job instead but I am scared about being solely dependant on benefits - as we were when DH first got injured before I found my job. Hopefully DH can get a management job for around £25k which will mean we are a bit better off than we are now (£16k, but lots of benefits) but is unlikely to get anything senior if only PT.

Sorry for waffling, I am not intending to hijack (I am planning to start my own thread on this when I feel stronger!) but I am just saying that regardless of any moral issues, benefits may not be the best choice, because it is not easy, and may make things more difficult in the long run. I sympathise though ((((hug))))

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 11:23:55

I agree, great post by gold

I had a lovely home start volunteer after I had ds4, they are fab ime.

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:24:17

Have sent her a link to this as she uses MN sometimes but also said if she doesn't want to join this thread due to it's nature, could she let me know who she uses X

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 11:24:52

Thankyou peachy that would be a great help.

And thankyou to everybody who has been kind and offered support.

Dawndonna Tue 08-Jan-13 11:25:22

Nice to see Eugenics is alive and well on Mumsnet.

JakeBullet Tue 08-Jan-13 11:25:25

ariane. Don't let the judgemental posts upset you, they are from people who don't understand and some of them never will.

Here we all have experience of caring for children with disabilities and have an understanding of how hard it is. In addition you sound in a particularly low place at the moment which is making things harder.....keep posting here and talking.

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 11:25:39

Part time work can avoid that trap of not being able to get back on the employment system though; it's NOT all or nothing.

mum382013 Tue 08-Jan-13 11:27:50

hypermobility association has local groups near you xxxx
look on facebook xxx

Dawndonna Tue 08-Jan-13 11:28:23

As for Ariane My only concern honey, is that with benefit changes there was an idea mooted at one point (it's in the corner of my mind and won't dig up for now) that at some point only one parent would be able to claim for one lot of Carer's allowance. Could be very wrong.
There have been some arses on this thread, but some good people too, look at some of the suggestions, there are some good ones. Home start are good.
Check out the school too, they may have a parent liason officer who can help with getting the older two to appointments or even in to school.
Good Luck!

imogengladhart Tue 08-Jan-13 11:35:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Congrats to the bigoted shitheads that got me FURIOUS enough to post when someone told me about this thread.

OP you must do what you feel you need to to get by. I'm looked upon as scum by Mumsnet because both me and my husband both care for our three disabled children, but there was no other way. If DH hadn't given up work I'd have killed myself by now (go on bigots tell me that's the preferable option, you know you want to).

However they are cutting our money by £4316 this year, we will struggle to survive financially but it's either that or the complete loss of my mental health.

It's the foul, disgusting posts the OP had directed at her that made me stop posting. If someone hasn't told me this was here I still wouldn't have done so but I will not stand by and see the OP ripped apart in the way she has been here.

Right that's it I'm out of this shit hole again. OP if you want to message me I'm always happy to talk and will read pms even if I don't read anywhere else.

Small minded, bigoted arseholian place.


hi Ariane sorry to see still hard .can reccomend Dr ninis as very good

peachy is right i was at national eds conference recently with sparkle .i would phone the eds national helpline and discuss options with them phone number 0208 736 5604 and pm away

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 12:31:50

Thankyou will contact them

ariane have pm you

Hi ariane check your inbox

oh and ds3 now has a dx of POTS so i really understand how your feeling

Peachy Tue 08-Jan-13 12:46:12

Ariane THC was the friend I mentioned.

Take care X

ICBINEG Tue 08-Jan-13 13:03:40

I think I was on one of your other threads...

If your DH gets benefits will you actually see any of it? Or is it more about having him around to help?

I think you need to be definitively financially separate from your DH and should not factor in money you may never see.

Apologies if that wasn't you!

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 13:09:34

Yes it was me-severe probs with dh family and money but actually I got a massive apology from mil 30pounds (not much I know) off the debt and a weeks shopping after dd2 was admitted to hospital last week.

Iam hoping things improve as I do need him to help me with dcs. He's considering working part time rather than giving up as a compromise but we are not sure yet.

ICBINEG Tue 08-Jan-13 13:20:20

Well I'm very glad to hear you have made some progress! Maybe your Daughters illness will refocus your (DH's) family on what is really important for a while. It makes me so angry to think what your MIL was spending your money on while you are scrabbling to make ends meet with a DD in hospital.

I still suspect it would be foolhardy to rely on money from your DH though, shocks to the system can change things but they tend to slide back to where they were....

wishing you all the best!

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 15:10:59

Was he giving his mum money then? That's crazy when you could use that money to pay for some help!

Is it possible for you both to work part time so that you both get a break?

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 15:12:57

Glitter. That's the reason i left too, the ridiculous sweeping daily mail judgements and opinions. Feck knows why i came back, nothings changed.

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 15:17:25

He was yes, I ended up taking his bank/credit cards and his wages went to my account but he kept on lending to family and the last lot I found out about virtually split us up-in fact dd2 getting ill was why he came back as she was in hosp tgen when home I needed the help.

Iam hoping and praying that is the end of it and he has learnt now but I will have to keep a very close eye on things.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 15:23:08

Bloody hell! Why do you think he does it? My dh has trouble saying no to his family as he seems desperate for their approval and they react very badly when they don't get their own way or if he stands up for himself. Is it like that?

Must make it so hard to trust! Are you still in control of the finances?

aufaniae Tue 08-Jan-13 15:23:16

Threesocks I am also wondering why you want your posts removed as you 'do not post on the SN boards'.

Are you scared you might catch SN?! hmm

I cannot fathom why someone would write such a thing?! Please enlighten us!

ariane5 Tue 08-Jan-13 15:29:30

Iam still in control of finances yes and some attempts at repaying have now been made by his family I think after seeing me at the weekend they have realised how bad things now are.

Iam hoping it all works out.dh wants to go part time so he can help with dcs I don't know if we will manage but we are going to talk about it.

threesocksmorgan Tue 08-Jan-13 15:36:05

aufaniae what the flying fuck do you mean.

Bramshott Tue 08-Jan-13 15:42:44

Could Rainbow Trust help with support and lifts to appointments? They're not necessarily just for terminally ill kids I think, but to support families whose kids have significant health probs.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 16:19:35

Threesocks. She means why did you say you wanted your posts removed if this thread was moved to sn.

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 16:27:02

three socks has a child with sn's I think but has been burnt on the sn's board, and no longer posts there's. Sorry this was mentioned on another thread and I may have misunderstood?

If I have misunderstood or three socks wants this post removed please tell me and I will report it.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 16:40:15

Oh! Id ask what happened but i don't suppose she wants it all dragged up again.

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 16:47:27

I don't know what happened just that she no longer posts on sn's boards and tbh I am not sure its even my place to say that. Which is why I am happy to get my last post and this one deleted.

But I wanted aufanie to know that it is not 'because she is scared it may be catching' and I can see why three socks was upset by that comment. Equally I can see that aufanie doesn't know three socks and doesnt realize when she asked for her posts to be removed she wasn't asking for spurious, prejudiced reasons iyswim?

Its just a bit of a misunderstanding.

threesocksmorgan Tue 08-Jan-13 17:01:19

5madthings no your ok, no need to be deleted. I am only still on this one as It is threads I am on.
I also feel the op needs support

5madthings Tue 08-Jan-13 17:20:02

Oh phew three socks I was a bit concerned as it wasn't my place to say but I didn't want things to get heated iyswim?

I agree the op needs support, I wish I could offer some helpful advice.

ariane5 Wed 09-Jan-13 00:07:22

Just an update: dh and I have talked things through, tried to see if any other friends/family could help so that dh can continue to work but nobody can.

Dh will be taking next week off work too (with no paysad) and will probably be giving up work after that untill the dcs health improves or I am able to drive/cope a bit better.
He works for his brother so he will have the option to return to work at some point but for now the only real option is for the two of us to concentrate fully on dcs needs to ensure they are all cared for properly.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 09-Jan-13 00:15:25

I am glad you have managed to reach a decision OP. It sounded as though you were struggling being the lone Carer. And as your DP works for his brother I am sure the option to work for him again will always be there.

Wish you and your family all the best.

ariane5 Wed 09-Jan-13 00:21:37

I have been struggling. I was doing my best and dh was working but with dd2 now having diabetes as well its just one thing too many.

Like you said, it doesn't have to be permanent dh can return to work if and when things settle down/improve.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 09-Jan-13 00:34:38

I really hope things do improve for you and your family. At the end of the day,you and your DH must do what is best for your children and your family as a whole. And nobody should judge you for that.

I know I said that you were being unreasonable initially,but only insofar as there could be other options available. But only you and your DH can decide what is right for yourselves and your children. I don't and wouldn't judge you or anyone else in the same position.

ariane5 Wed 09-Jan-13 00:42:00

I was struggling before and it was hard work but dh was working and we were just about managing.some days I complained and moaned about I wish I could go back now-i thought it was hard but nothing like the situation I find myself in now sad

I hate having to inject dd2 4 times a day. I hate all the hypos she keeps having and how thin and scared she looks.she has them during the night and I cannot sleep as I fear the worst could happen.

My life before was tough but I wish I could go back and for dd2 to be well again.the health problems although worrying and upsetting were not as terrifying as they are now.

achillea Wed 09-Jan-13 01:04:15

I think you are right to get help from your husband. There are times when work just has to come second and you have to pull together as your children are more important.

There is lots of support around and it may be that you are not finding it (for whatever reason) but I think you need to get support from elsewhere. Have you ever applied for respite care?

ICBINEG Wed 09-Jan-13 01:42:16

Anything I say will be patronising but bloody hell would I find your situation terrifying. I can't even imagine having to inect my DD. My heart goes out to you and I really hope this is a transient state of affairs and better things are around the corner for you and your family.

aufaniae Wed 09-Jan-13 02:18:11

Oh threesocks I'm so sorry I totally misunderstood, there were some really ignorant people back there having a go at the OP and I thought you were one of them, but I can now see i got the wrong end of the stick with your post!

Peachy Wed 09-Jan-13 19:21:38

Trust me, threesocks is a good guy!

Ariane5 glad you have reached a decision. It just takes one little thing doesn't it? If my Dh didn't work from home mainly I don't know how we'd manage. Stupid things like having to distribute the boys between 4 different schools to cope with different needs and then having a taxi and a collection each afternoon at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME.

Stupid stuff really, is all it takes.

take care X

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