Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.
private school with full statement-but will LA pay for TA?(61 Posts)
I'm in a fortunate position where my mother has come into money as my nan passed away. Mainstream is failing my dd because of the class sizes. The private school not far from us has a max of 8 in a class.
But would the lea pay for a TA in the private setting?
I have a full school statement for 32.5 hours 1:1 for my dd.
Anyone know if this is possible?
I forgot to say, I understand I would be responsible for the school fees
Generally no. The money is to support within the state system. You might however find you can get a reduced amount of money for lsa support if you fight for it.
apologies, excuse my ignorance what does Isa stand for?
sorry, Learning Support Assistant. They might have changed the name tho. I used to be one, and ds has dyspraxia. The little boy I looked after had a full statement, but the school were crap, and his parents were thinking of moving him to private, but were told he couldn't take his statement with him.
I also moved ds from state to private for a couple of years, but he was on school action so no money. I did find that the local services such as OT and SALT would be happy to support him at any school in borough. Otherwise the parent has to pay for all support being delivered in school. I paid privately for this.
This is why I am broke as a broke thing from broketown. (sold flat to pay for it).
somebody might well have more up to date info tho, and it can vary from LEA to LEA.
I thought a statement automatically lapsed when a pupil voluntarily transferred to an indie school.
What the OP is describing is different to the sceario where the LA determines that for a child with a Statement, an indie school is required.
In the OP's case the LA has determined that he requires full-time TA in his current school but could determine that the lower ratio of pupils renders TA unnecessary.
Word of warning - you don't say how old your son is. IF he has been determined to need a fulltime TA his needs would seem to be quite severe. Just transferring to an indie school will not lessen those needs. You may find that, as he gets older, his condition worsens and he may require a special school. That could set a huge amount each year in specailist school fess. Plus you wouldn't automatically see Ed Pysch etc for free.
I was under the impression that unless money was absolutely no object at all a child with severe needs should really stay in the state sector.
Thanks MadameDefarge, i also pay for private speech therapy and private OT so no doubt they would go to any school. It just seems that the school pays for a good TA for 1:1 for the week which is great, its been a 2 year fight for this, but nothing else.
But i think she struggles with the class sizes (according to OT) and her sensory needs have really increased also.
If you make a good case for an independent special school you can negotiate down to them just funding a 1:1 and you covering fees at a school of your choice.
That seems to be pretty much the only way people get it granted IME.
Then OT needs such as class size shoukd be written in her tatement.
Thanks WetAugust. She's only just 4 and you're right, its an open book really as to whether a specialist school may be necessary as the learning element of school hasn't really started.
i did think mainstream state would be the best way as going into the private sector may mean we would have to start again if we wanted to go back into mainstream and i don't think i could start the fight all over again.
Thanks for all your advice- its really making me think about all alternatives.
hmmm, maybe just making sure that absolutely everything is in the statement is the best way. I just guess i want to make sure i've thought about every alternative and option before going down the special school route should the MS school decide my DD cannot be educated there.
I just wanted to research every option out there but wetaugust is right, her needs are quite severe to warrant a full time TA so class sizes will probably make little difference in reality.
If you can prove that the private school can meet your dd's needs and the state school can't, (hard to do but not impossible by any means) then you can get the private school named in part 4 and then the LA pay for everything within the statement.
Statements don't lapse at private schools - many specialist schools are private so just because a child has severe needs doesn't exclude them from the private sector. National Autistic Society schools are a prime example - not state, but the vast majority of their pupils come with state funding.
Have you considered a ss if mainstream is failing your dd? Classes are usually under 10 and the staff are specialists.
Private isn't always best - it depends on the needs of the child. Is your local private school likely to be able to offer your dd a place?
ds2 and ds3 both had statements, one went to ss from 3-17 the other to ms primary and a private secondary. It really does depend on the individual school and how they meet your dd's particular needs.
I wouldn't be too sure that statements don't lapse under the circumstances described by the OP. What you have described Eatyourveg is the LA deciding an indie is required - in this case the statement remains in force.
the parent deciding quite voluntarily to pay for indie school does not mean the statemnet automatically goes with the child - I think you'll find the statemnet is ceased.
I think i'm starting to realise that a ss is a very real option. They are specialists, you're right -the class sizes are small.
I guess coming from such an academic background i wanted my child to have that chance, but that says more about me coming to terms with this then the needs of my child. In summary, if a MS primary isn't the answer, a private one with just a small class size probably isn't going to be the next option realistically for us.
Maybe my effort is best spent finding the best ss should this MS fail to meet my DD's needs in my area.
Thanks to all of you for contributing. If only i could buy you all a glass of something fizzy - i'd love to have friends like all of you x
Some dc do so well with a few years of SS that they transfer back into mainstream needing much less support than they did to start with. In some mainstream early years, dc need lots of 1-1 cos they're a fish out of water, and the 'ordinary' staff have no clue. In many SS, all staff know what they're doing so there's less need for a babysitter. Or there's the middle ground of a 'unit' attached to a mainstream primary: the good ones are excellent, the rubbish ones are dreadful.
I've heard that about SS being great for the first years of school. It really does come down to the staff and qualified approaches, i'm tired of trying to "think" up strategies" in order for my child to access an education and we're only in the first term!
Stick around Lesley. I think you'll find many on here with the same issues trying to access a suitable education.
Early Years and Junior school are usually small setting with just one class teacher who is familiar with their class.
It's transition to secondary school when many problems arise as they leave that relatively safe environment and are thrown in with children from other schools and a different teacher for each class. That's when many simply cannot cope.
That's when I would transfer ti indie if I had to but I'd try to make a case for the LA to fund it. By secondary stage you'll also have a much better indication of her potential and what she needs to achieve it.
In my experience, many indie mainstream schools are not geared up for very young SEN children. They might be able to cope with the child in reception/y1/y2 but the cracks start to show in year 3. From year 3 onwards many indie schools expect a lot from very young children. By year 3, many indie schools introduce subject teachers and start to stream Maths and English. Also very young children no longer use their class room as a base for all lessons, but are regularly moving around the school from room to room for each different lesson.
For my DS, he coped in reception/y1/y2 but year 3 was a disaster. Not just in terms of learning but also things like moving around the school. He simply could not handle moving from class to class and all that entailed - eg making sure he had the correct books/pens etc for the correct lesson. Also, my DS (by no means a "runner") got lost twice in his school in year 3 - a school he had been at by then for 4 years. One time the staff knew he had gone missing, and after calling me to ask if he was with me(!!) found him. The other time he went missing, noone knew he had gone until I worked out that he'd gone missing for an entire afternoon. I still to this day don't know where he was on both these occasions. His maths, always a very strong point for him and something that motivated him, nose-dived to the bottom of the bottom because he was "streamed" into the very bottom set (because of his dyslexia) and left with a maths teacher who simply did not know how to teach maths to a severely dyslexic child. When I home ed'ed him, it took a year for specialist dyslexia teacher to bring his maths (and motivation) back up to where it was before that school's teacher tried to teach my DS.
Tbh, if I had my time again, I would use my money to finance fighting proper support in a proper ss and not subject my DS through the trauma of a prestigious indie school that didn't know the first thing about how to support my DS. But more importantly, they didn't know that they didn't know, so in their process of trying to "fix" him, did immeasurable damage to him with their methods.
OP - my DS's experience of indie school is extreme. I didn't know he had SEN when I put him in that school. If I had known, I would have asked other parents with SEN children and ask of their experience of the school before placing him there. I would never ever rely on the Ofsted report - this school was "outstanding" for its SEN. Since I've removed him from the school, I discovered that my experience of the school wasn't unique.
wetaugust I don't see why you think the statement would cease. ds3 still has a statement even though he's at a private school and we fund it. The statement actually names a state school but the LA come to all his reviews to make sure the private school are meeting his needs. The OP could do the same, name the state school the LA want but take the statement to the private school and pay yourself (we have never paid for the SALT who comes in to see him).
There might and it is only a might be the possibility that the LSA OT and the SALT being covered by the new regs that came in last year whereby a school can't charge for additional aids and services. See here
sorry Towiela, when you say an indie mainstream school - do you mean a state school, not a private one?
Eatyourveg I said it in response to the OP's query about transferring to an indie school funded by herself. I presumed she meant mainstream indie and the thread appears to bear this out.
If you look at the SEN COP you'll find it's applicable in the folowing settings:
This guidance applies to;
• Free Schools (including University Technical Colleges and Studio Schools);
• maintained schools;
• pupil referral units;
• all interested parties; and
• non-maintained special schools
So, going by the above, a Statement would not be maintained in a non-maintained indie non-special school.
So you either have a very generous LA that is interpreting @all interested parties' as applying to your self-funded indie mainstream school or your child is in an indie special school.
Thanks eatyourveg, good to have in my file to refer to.
Im currently appealing our statement mainly because it misses out (conveniently) all the OT and ST needs.
I do sometimes wonder what happens to sen kids who start at private school at primary level and are later diagnosed. We know that private schools all have special needs coordinators..
Do they stay on but get help from the school and pay extra for this?
I guess it depends on the severity but i do wonder what part the local education authority plays here.
Lesley - indie = independent. He was in a private mainstream school - a very well known one in my area. To your question I do sometimes wonder what happens to sen kids who start at private school at primary level and are later diagnosed. - that is exactly what happened to him. His (and my) experience was awful. I sometimes wonder if anyone from that school reads my posts and realises that I am talking about them.
This private school totally failed my DS. I removed him, home ed'ed him for a year whilst I fought with my LA to the bitter death. He is now in an indie ss fully funded by the LA, as ordered by a Tribunal. My LA hated the indie school he was in - I have a lot of documentary evidence of this. Because of this private school, they hated me from the very start when I first applied and was turned down for SA. But they hate me even more now as I fought them to the death to get the correct provision for him.
I should imagine that the situation for parents putting their children with SEN into Indie MS is probably similar to those deregistering and opting to home educate. The COP pretty much says that if you do that and provide what is deemed an adequate education then you clearly don't need the statement and if you fail to provide an adequate education, then you're not meeting your part of the bargain, so the statement may be withdrawn.
Gosh TOWIELA, your post really makes me think. I've heard some private schools (before my DD was diagnosed) say things like "you don't want a label", or "everyones on the spectrum" etc etc. And i admit that really bothered me. I just wanted to make sure i was looking at all the alternatives should MS fail. But your post really has just sort of stopped my thinking in its tracks as by your own admission you would never have chosen this option had you known your child did have additional needs.
In my case i know my DD has a lot of support so her needs are not mild- tough as it is to admit at her young age. Putting her in a private school would, now i see, probably be more about me then her.
I shall commence the start for a SS i think. I live in a wide authority so i should count my blessings in that respect that i will have more Special schools to choose from as to what fits her needs.
Lesley - I have been told by an indie EP that if my DS had been in a state school, the severity of his needs would have been identified years ago and he would have had a Statement and fully supported by the time he was in year 1. Instead, he is now year 5 and only has just got a Statement after a massive fight with my LA.
I had it all from this indie school - from the original "you don't want a label, I can handle him" - from the SENCO who refused to let me get him privately dx for dyslexia but then promptly retired and handed over her SENCO job to her daughter (this will out me!). This then changed to "we need a diagnosis, he must be tested", and "we want him to repeat year 1" (when the year 1 teacher didn't know what to do), and then onto "we still don't know what to do", and "we want him tested again". Even the outright question from me "is your school the right school for my DS" was met with blank faces and "we don't know". That, in a nutshell, is the story of 4 years of hell as we lurched from term to term - he had SALT, OT and 1:1 support but it still wasn't enough.
I was left not knowing if this school could not cope, or didn't want to cope or my son was even more severe than they ever admitted. It turned out it was all three.
He's at the right school now - primary need is severe dyslexia but with other co-morbid problems. The LA argued at Tribunal that dyslexia was actually a speech and language problem
Good god . Don't worry about being "outted", your post has helped me put things into perspective, thank you for that. I know of many mums in this predicament so know that this could help so many other parents.
Besides, the teachers involved in your story should hang their heads in shame. Your LA should do the same. I hope this isn't the part where I realise we have the same LA!!
Lesley - it's common knowledge on this board that my LA is in my nickname - The Only Way really Is Essex LA
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
"8:97 Parents may choose to place a child with a statement in an independent school (whether or not approved under section 347) or a non-maintained special school at their own expense. If parents choose to make such provision for their child, the LEA must be satisfied that the school is able to make special educational provision for the child that
meets their special educational needs before they are relieved of their duty to arrange provision in an appropriate school. The LEA is not required to specify the name of a school in part 4 of the child’s statement where they are satisfied that the child’s parents have made suitable arrangements but they must, in those circumstances, state the type
of provision. Parents should not be treated as having made suitable arrangements if the arrangements do not include a realistic possibility of funding those arrangements for a reasonable period of time. The LEA are, whether or not a school is named in the statement, still under a duty to maintain the child’s statement and to review it annually, following the procedures set out in Chapter Nine." Pg 119
Lesley, I think you have to be a bit disbelieving here, almost cynical. Private schools are varied and deal with a great variety of children. Within the private sector schools are pretty clearly segregated between high achievers and those who are not. The private schools that where you pay for nurturing and care over academic ability do a great job. But you will still as a parent pay for the extra support your dc needs.
Any selective school, even with feeders, will manage out the children who will not contribute to their results. The only way they will keep them is if their parents will commit to support funded by the parents, if they can see a good result at the end for them.
I also speak as a sister of a child who was in a 'special school' (shows my age) where there was no secondary provision. My mum moved to the south west where LEA provisional was more generous, and my DB was sent to a specialist boarding school, funded by the lea.
The problem with that lougle, is that if there as a specialist secondary school in borough, with spaces, very few LEAs would elect to spend the extra money on funding support in the private sector, whether or no that school is appropriate for that child.
Madame, I don't think they will fund the extra support. However, I don't think that's what 8:97 implies.
I think the Statement would show that support as needed, but the parents would need to fund the support because they've elected to fund her education.
I was just quoting the SEN CoP para which shows that a statement must still be maintained, in answer to those who queried if it would be ceased on those grounds.
There was someone on this board (can't remember who tho) who was doing precisely as lougle quotes from the SEN CoP. Their child had a Statement in a private school, the parents funded all the fees & provision and the LA just turned up for Annual Reviews. So the Statement was maintained but at no cost to the LA.
'Lesley - I have been told by an indie EP that if my DS had been in a state school, the severity of his needs would have been identified years ago and he would have had a Statement and fully supported by the time he was in year 1. Instead, he is now year 5 and only has just got a Statement after a massive fight with my LA.'
TOWIELA I understand it was an Indie EP that made this claim but I honestly doubt it is true of your LA. The behaviour of your private school is no different to a number of state schools that I know of and supported in this behaviour by an LA determined be obstructive I really don't think your outcome would have been any different. I think you needn't have regrets about this, at least not in the context of where you live.
Star, the only regrets I have is that I didn't swing everything into action years and years earlier and that I believed the indie mainstream school when they repeated to me year after year that "they could handle it". The final few meetings I had with them (year 3) when, by then, it had all gone pear-shaped but they hadn't told me it had, were unbelievable. If he had been in the state system, it would have been picked up much much earlier and he would have been in the "system" from a younger age.
With regards to the LA, yes, their behaviour would have been the same state or private because of exactly who the LA is.
'If he had been in the state system, it would have been picked up much much earlier and he would have been in the "system" from a younger age.'
This. See, I just don't believe this. Not in a school in your LA. They are
brainwashed trained by the LA and would have denied needs and insisted things were okay for as long as they could get away with it too.
It is farily usual for schools all over the country to deny need until around year 3. The biggest flow of children from mainstream to special schools occurs in years 3 and 4, mainly imo because the children are not small enough for teachers to be able to wield their power over them any longer, not because they ever coped particularly up until that age.
INdeed starllight. my ds' dyspraxia was not picked up at all at state primary, even though he was on action plus. How many pointless IEPs I had to sit through with his targets focussed on him improving his handwriting by 'trying harder'. In fact he was bullied by his teacher for his slow handwriting. poor little sod.
To be fair (not that I remotely want to be fair!) my dd was picked up in year 1 in the state system and same LA. She was totally supported on SA+ throughout primary. But then at secondary, all support was dropped. This was in the days before the Internet (and mumsnet!) so, as I didnt know better, I accepted it. The "system" kicked back in again when she went to FE and my LA were very good - but then as she was a young adult, she came under another part if the "system", not the lying school department of SEN in my LA
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
TOWIELA* that was me (only jst logged on) ds is in a mainstream independent school - the LA has a duty to make sure he receives appropriate education, however there is no duty on the LA to actually provide it themselves (thats the same with any child statemented or not). There is no duty on the private school to provide what is set out in the statement as part 4 names another school so in effect it holds no weight and I couldn't challenge the school if they weren't giving him the provision set out in the statement. (That is why it is really important for the OP to have the private school on board before she enrols her dd - my school is fab in that they will follow the statement) The LA's duty to ensure ds receives appropriate education is just the same as it would be if he was HE but they don't seem to be so keen to check up on HE dc.
1996 Education Act as amended by SENDA 2001 Part IV Chapter 1 section 324 (5) (a) (i) (ii) is where it says you can have a statement but the parents decide the provision relinquishing the LA of their duty to arrange it - it would also come under the bit in the COP that WetAugust mentioned yesterday. The COP itself isn't legally binding the law just says providers should have "regard to the code"
The LA officer comes along to the reviews to make sure he's getting what they deemed he needs, our particular LA officer covers all the private mainstream schools on my side of the county. By ceasing to maintain the statement the LA would effectively be saying ds no longer has any of the needs set out in part 2 and 3. that would be ludicrous. Statements only lapse when dc move from school onto college and then the students have an LDA which contains much of the same information but without the legal status the statement affords. Its worked for us, ds is now in Y11 and the school have always been more than happy to accommodate him. I wouldn't have considered it had they not been so welcoming as they could easily just turn around and decide not to bother.
Private schools are no longer allowed to charge for some types of support, so all those who are paying through their noses should check the legislation - its quite complex and there are several get out clauses but worth seeing if you qualify under the new requirements . See here for a general synopsis
yes you can have statement provision eg one to one provided by LEA but within independent school setitng.
jsut arrange to meet with LEA oficer an explain that you will fund the school fees, but you want LEA to fund what is in the statement. so long as the independent school happy with this too.
had this for dd in early years (she later didnt need the support so withdrew statement) and also currently a friend has this exact situation with a child with recognized syndrome - attending indep school paid for by parents but full time LSA funded by LEA under her statement .
I am in the same boat. I want to send ds to an independent private school. He has 25 hours 1-1 at nursery. We would have been given medical hours last year in my county, but now need a statement as the rules have changed which we are applying for. I have no idea what will happen next. Ds is bright but disabled and we just want the money he'd have for his 1-1 in the state system in the private school.
We've been in this position. Ds spent his time from yr 1 to yr 7 in a private prep. Till yr 4 things were ok. Some teachers really went above and beyond for ds. Then his peer group started to outstrip him academically and developmentally. With hindsight we would have used money to push for a full statement instead and ds should have gone to a specialist school from the beginning.
Like others have said private schools tend to either ignore the special needs kids or get rid of them. My ds got refused from one school. Many parents never get a diagnosis as they know that their child won't even get into the school. DS's school coursed us into dropping his statement on accepting him into the school. Wind on a few years later we had to go though the whole process again, this time with all an ot,salt and ed psyc.
The sad thing that happened over time was ds got left out of things. Now in his current school he is amongst his equals. We don't have to explain to the teachers how to help ds and he is taught in a group of 5.
I feel it's highly unlikely you'll get funding for a 1-1 in the situation. You want it. I would say save yourself heartache and go for a decent set of professionals to get the statement you want.
you see I really struggle with this. DS is unusual in that his needs are physical not educational. He will be disabled wherever he is but large groups physically knock him over/ignore him. I want a school with small rooms not just small class sizes.
The school I want has a high percentage of disabled children but they all had medical hours.
I really struggle with the fact that because DS has a disability affecting his ability to walk he can't go to the private school I would chose for him. It's his legs which are the issue.
Lesley hven't read all of thread but ... yes, it is possible to have LEA fund statment in private school. I know parents who have achieved this, but not without one hell of a fight. Lots of evidence needed that it would be the only school that could meet needs etc etc ...
Thanks ladies, I have to be honest, what does scare me is the age and severity of my DC's autism and if this does get worse -then pulling her out of private school to start the whole Mainstream process would just too soul destroying for our family.
I'm now going to start researching special schools in our area- private or LA funded and view each of them. I think my funds with a solicitor are best placed getting her into a ss should that be deemed necessary.
I'm really aware that a lot of the posts reiterate the same theme - about mainstream failing their children once they move into year 3 ,and beyond. A lot of special schools seem to take from age 8 onwards so we have time...unless her MS primary throw her out that is...
Have you considered a split placement? ds2 was in a special school and integrated into our local RC primary for afternoon a week in YR that went up to two afternoons in Y1 and 2 but reverted to one afternoon when in Y3 when the curriculum got too much, he carried on until Y6 and I'm so grateful the ms head suggested it when I wasn't sure which way to go. The statement had both schools on it.
Start out with the full time specialist input and add the mainstream on a gradual basis as and when ready, far better for the dc's self confidence too. Wouldn't have worked for ds3 but it was ideal for ds2 and I'm so glad the ms head suggested it when I was in two minds which way to go after his split nursery placement
Sorry folks - didn't mean to mislead. Had always thought that the LA had no duty to maintain a Statement if the parent voluntarily transferred to indie mainstream. It seems I was wrong.
No worries wet, I valued your insight into the indie ms if my
DC's ASD got worse. I'd never thought about that point till then.
my DS has recently started in an indie school with full statement, and full funding for support and SLT and OT- we pay for fees. It can be done provided you negotiate with LA and prove that state mainstream cannot meet your child's needs.
Good luck in your search for a good special school, Lesley. Split placement sounds like a great idea.
Why can't your son go to the private school you would choose for him, muchado? I don't understand.
Hi bunnybb- is that an independent school (open to all NT children) - or an independent special school. And can i ask if the LA also pay the SLT,OT 1:1 support straight to the independent school?
Also did you have to go through an appeal process to get this?
He can, but I am concerned that the la will say they won't provide the 1-1 funding in private when they would in state. He will definitely qualify for help because of his cp, but the equality act really fails in this instance, as the law currently is if you have a statement and that provides the hours, if the school is also private they should pay the fees if it is the appropriate school. Technically there is no basis to split. My la always did but are very concerned about the changes to the law on medical (rather than educational provision). Oh well will wait and see.
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