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Please help me deal with DS manipulation.

(52 Posts)
youarewinning Fri 26-Jul-13 21:17:13

Hi all, my DS (8.11) is becoming more and more manipulative in his behaviours (for want of a better word). He has been referred to Camhs and it's suspected he has some kind of ASD (AS or HFA).

His behaviour is generally good but he can manipulate things to get what he wants. I first thought this showed he couldn't have ASD but after a quick google see this isn't uncommon in children with this dx. It does say it's because they are anxious and need to control their world - which is DS to a T.

It also says about using direct questions but I have no idea what this means and there appears to be a lack of advice on how to deal with this. He does do the slight change in conversation to lead it towards what he wants - not bad for a child who cannot open or sustain a conversation. grin

I am using the "when you have (we have) done X, then we/ you can do Y" but then he doesn't want to do Y argggggggggggggg.

At times I feel like I'm living with Sheldon Cooper for those who watch TBBT and the next 6 weeks are gonna be lloooooonnnggggg!

Please help - any advice welcome.

ouryve Fri 26-Jul-13 22:24:55

I have one of those. He's 9 and has diagnoses of ASD and ADHD. He often quite forcefully pushes things onto his own agenda because he needs to feel in control.

Google PDA (pathological demand avoidance) for some more useful pointers!

The answer to him not wanting to do something any more is "that's such a shame", accompanied by a nonchalant shrug, btw. It takes away the heat quite quickly and gives him nothing ot argue with.


Ineedmorepatience Sat 27-Jul-13 16:36:32

I agree with ouryve dont let him see that it bothers you because that gives him even more control, iyswim.

I have 2 Dd's like this and they will try pretty much anything to manipulate a situation to their advantage.

Dd1 has no diagnosis but I believe she has aspergers (and probably ADHD).

She was a good teacher for me and by the time Dd3 came along with Asd I had learned how to stay very calm, choose my battles and pretend not to care about lots of things.

It is hard and he will work extremely hard to stay in control but you will hopefully find a way to get him to do what you need him to do without to much trauma!

I use lots of visual for Dd3, she needs to see what is expected of her rather than me issuing instructions verbally. When I do use verbal instructions I keep them very short and too the point. I never ask her to do anything which could be answered with "No", think carefully about how you word things to avoid being told "no".

Good luck smile

PolterGoose Sat 27-Jul-13 17:12:41

Agree with the others, stay calm, consider your questions or demands before you speak, reframe demands positively (say what you want not what you don't), reduce/simplify your language and also look at ways to reduce anxiety. I keep recommending it but 'The Explosive Child' is brilliant for children who want control and are demand avoidant. Ds has also responded really well to Huebner's 'What to do when you worry too much' which is a short CBT programme/workbook you can do at home. A piece of advice that has stuck with me is try not to respond to your child by saying 'no' instead try responding with something positive like 'yes, we can do that after you've done...' It's hard and means you have to really stop and think, but it can stop the battles.

youarewinning Sat 27-Jul-13 18:50:26

Thanks all - great advice.

We do use visual timetables - however atm they aren't working because DS still needs the specifics spelt out to him - eg get dressed still needs to be in clean underwear, in clean clothes with 3-4 get up off the floor and continue getting dressed DS thrown in!

I try to talk to him positively and try to always say things in the "you can...." tense - but totally agree that it takes so much time and energy and sometimes this lapses - especially when he starts talking me in circles. grin He often starts a sentence with no so I'm very conscious of not doing this as try to model the behaviour - it would be easier if he could read social clues! I'm also getting him to say things correctly - eg he'll say "can you not change the channel over" and I'll repeat do you mean "can we continue to watch this channel". I have no idea why he says things in the negative. I can only guess that because when he doesn't get what he wants that's the way he hears it? So when I'm watching TV and he comes in and picks up the controls to change it I'll say "please leave this channel on DS, I'm watching this programme" but he hears "don't change the channel" as he sees the fact he can't change it as a negative - especially as he knows the TV guide better than the BBC and will know he's missing something!

He actually cried this morning sad He'd just realised a Top Gear had finished and wanted to put it on Dave deja vu. I wanted him to have a shower as i'd just got out and it was running. Cue me annoying him because I interrupted his plans, I said it started in 5 minutes (was corrected to it being 4 hmm) and so he could jump in shower quick. When he came out he realised Dave deja vu has gone off of freeview - cue his ordered world collapsing.

PolterGoose Sat 27-Jul-13 18:56:06

It is all bloody hard work, having to think through everything we say, this is the bit the outside world don't see, the relentlessness of planning to the teeniest degree and the constant state of alert, so very exhausting. None of us get it right all the time though, we can only do our best.

youarewinning Sat 27-Jul-13 19:17:09

That's the thing - to the outside world DS is just a very smart little boy. It's only when you look closely you see just how the smartness is control.

I pride myself on being a consistent parent and not giving in to whinging/ tantrums etc and people think I'm overly strict. But what they don't realise is that I have to be that way - give DS an inch and he expects a mile. He needs such closed boundaries to cope despite the fact he's always trying to manipulate the order of the day grin

If I allowed negotiation with DS we'd never get anything done and he'd spend morning til night on minecraft with headphones on ignoring the world.

Ineedmorepatience Sat 27-Jul-13 19:35:32

Yes we have alot of issues with repeats on tv and showers. We always give Dd3 plenty of notice about going in the shower, she struggles with the sensoryness of getting clean!!

She basically controls the tv and I must admit I do just leave her to get on with it. Most of the time she is my only one at home now so I just watch something when she has gone to bed.

We use a very precise visual timetable for showering it is broken into tiny steps, it has really helped lately and means that I can stay out of the way and avoid conflict.

Dd3 does quite alot of wailing and lying on the floor but I must admit I do just step over her and carry on. If she misses something nice well so be it. She generally stops if she thinks she is going to miss out on something though. I find that if I say "If you do this you will get ....."she will usually say she doesnt want it anyway but if I say "If you dont do this you wont get......" she usually does it. I know this is the wrong way round really as it is negative but it works for us.

I am also very strict and agree about not being able to give an inch. Dd3 has got easier in the last 12 months since she has begun to understand more about her Asd, she is less frustrated and more able to compromise a tiny bit so long as she is sure she will get what she wants in the end.

I actually find her slightly easier to live with than my NT teen as at least she is predictably obsessive and doesnt keep moving the goalposts.

She is nearly 11 by the way smile

youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 11:13:15

Thanks for all the advice.

I went for a 2 day - no computer. Simply told DS he can have 1 hour a day and then extra time would be earnt. He persuaded me to let him have the weekends time on Friday as well - I agreed on the understanding that he accepted he wouldn't have it at all over the weekend. He asked but I had a get out clause on the fact we'd discussed it. Also when the computer wasn't there he was able to handle as that wasn't his sole focus. We spent the day yesterday with friends at an open event - he tried go karting, gymnastics, various sports and played on a bouncy slide. He even came second in a rowing machine competition - amazingly as he couldn't do it at first and fell off!

He also made me grin this morning. He was told he could have computer time today as weather crap and I have housework to do. It needed charging and one of the things we have been working on is the social nicety of asking not assuming before moving/ touching others stuff.
He asked me if he could unplug my laptop as the house laptop needs to be plugged in to move. (btw we only have 2 because I know have a work one so DS has adopted the other as 'his own' !) I said yes.

Bless him - he then began to explain to me why he'd asked - instead of a simple thankyou. But at least he's beginning to understand and 'get it'

Trigglesx Mon 29-Jul-13 14:22:06

I have learned the hard way about bargaining - DS1 is now constantly doing the "if you do this, then I'll do that...."


youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 16:23:22

Oh gawd I never thought of that shock

So my allowing him to bargain I'm likely teaching him to do it back <goes to rethink> grin

PolterGoose Mon 29-Jul-13 17:10:29

Same here, I've worked really hard on negotiation skills with ds, he uses them very well with me grin

claw2 Mon 29-Jul-13 17:22:37

I use

1. Say what I want him to do (not what I don't want)
2. Give him choices, but I control the choices.
3. Ask questions that cannot result in a 'no' ie a choice of two things
4. Positive reinforcement for making the right choice.
5. Rules stuck up on the wall.
6. 5 minute warning for when something is about to happen or come to an end (he has no idea how long 5 minutes is, however he knows it means not long)
7. Markers throughout the day ie AFTER breakfast, AFTER lunch, AFTER dinner as ds has no concept of time

youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 18:36:23

Sadly my DS has too much of a concept of time.

He knows he can't have laptop until 9am - so until then constantly checks the time and cannot do anything else for more than about 10 seconds in case he misses it. Same when there's a TV programme he has to watch again!.

He gets on very well with placid children but those who have the ability to manipulate them selves - you know the ones I mean I hope! - he just gets so frustrated with.

He was sobbing his heart out earlier because his friend who came round wouldn't take his shoes off - we have a no shoes in house rule here. He kept coming to me asking what to say and it took all my resistence not to do it for him - whilst thinking about other DC's I know who would just have shouted - "You are NOT allowed in the house with shoes on and take them off now" to DS if he accidentally took a step too far wearing his. Sometimes I wish DS frustration would mean he gets upset at the child and not in himself iyswim? I think what I'm trying to say is I wish DS had the ability to be forceful not get frustrated as I believe children would treat him better if he could.

Sadly now they are all 8 and 9 they have realised he cannot defend himself verbally and take advantage sad

Trigglesx Mon 29-Jul-13 18:54:02

claw2 that's very similar to what we use here for the most part. Although some days it all falls spectacularly apart. grin

youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 19:36:19

That is a great list claw2

1. I do (or try to do!)
2. I do - but he always tries to add his own options! Need to get the bored parrot voice out!
3. as for 2 <sigh>
4. Brilliant - I really think I need to actively do more of this.
5. Love it grin Need to come up with some now!
6. do this - but need to be more consistent EG if I say 5 minutes left we are going out then he comes off in 5 minutes even if I'm not quite ready to go out!
7. DS is too aware of time so need to be sure something is definatly happening at x time if I give a time!

claw2 Mon 29-Jul-13 20:50:57

Triggles I think we all have days like that grin


2. Let him add his own options (within reason) let him help you draw up 'the rules', then agreed to rules can be stuck up on the wall.

3. I had to get tough, otherwise ds wouldn't do anything. Its 2 choices, there isn't a 3rd option of 'no'. Computer/xbox time for example his 2 choices, after being given his 5 minute warning are do you want to switch it off or shall I!

"He knows he can't have laptop until 9am - so until then constantly checks the time and cannot do anything else for more than about 10 seconds in case he misses it. Same when there's a TV programme he has to watch again!"

Ds was exactly the same, its not that he doesn't know when 9am is, I could tell him when little hand is on 9 etc, however he doesn't know how long he has to wait iyswim?

So if I say at 7.30am, you can do it at 9am, how long is 9am? is it 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes etc, etc. So he will ask every few minutes.

We have used timers in the past, so he can see the time passing (for babies now according to ds, now he is the grand old age of 9!) , now we have our AFTER rule, so 9am would be AFTER breakfast.

youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 21:59:04

Ah that makes sense - the after rule thingy.

I have suggested timers at school as DS asks exactly how much he has to write and how many questions he has to answer. I reckon this is a timing issue iyswim? I said telling him means he won't ever do more than expected so tell him as much as he can in x amount of time - eg timer. I've then said if he does what you'd expect for his ability to reward him. But to keep expecting more. And to add reward for neat handwriting, good spelling, using punctuation etc. They do a raffle ticket system do easy to reward instantly in his new class.

youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 22:00:53

I'm not sure if DS understands how ling he'd have to wait? He will ask me what time x starts, I'll tell him, he'll say how long is that, if I say quarter of an hour he'll correct me to the fact its 19 minutes to so in 4 minutes he'll have to wait quarter of an hour. hmm

claw2 Mon 29-Jul-13 22:58:23

Ds is very good at mental maths and would have no problem knowing 30 mins take away 5 mins leaves 25 minutes etc. He knows that 60 seconds make a minute and if I ever say 'hold on a minute' he will sit and literally count to 60 in his head and then say minute is up! However ds just has no idea how long 30 mins or 25 mins or 5 mins actually takes. Its more time elapsing, he has difficulties with (not the actually numbers, just the concept).

Ds worries about not having time to finish what he has started. Ds also needs a beginning and an end, especially if its something he finds difficulty. Ds likes to know exactly what is expected of him. He likes order. Do you think your ds might be similar?

youarewinning Mon 29-Jul-13 23:50:10

claw2 what your saying makes absolute sense and is helping me understand my DS more. He is another who literally counts the time and then says a minute is up. Or if I say a few needs to clarify I mean 3 (usually when talking biscuits grin). His teacher even moaned about about the minute thing. I told her be glad at least one student listens to her every word blush I have NOT liked this years teacher

claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:25:53

His teacher doesn't sound very helpful! At least your ds is telling you what the problem is and has even given his own solution to what would make him feel better ie he wants to know how long he has and how much he has to write!

These are good, they actually show time elapsing and time remaining. We used one and it really helped. So ds didn't have to keep asking is it time yet, he could literally see when it was time.

I don't see why his teacher cannot show him (not tell him) how long he has and how much he has to write. She/he could start off with a small amount, which is really easy to achieve, so he is successful, then increase it gradually.

We have also used visuals timetables, planners, checklists and sequencing charts. Really helped to give ds more structure and not feel so out of control.

The word a 'few' is similar to the word 'later', ds struggles with 'later', when is later exactly, what is a few exactly!

I have to use concrete language with ds. You try picturing the words cat, house, biscuit for example, its easy. Then try picturing the words, later, few, when etc. These words are harder to understand as there is no hook or link to picture.

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 10:35:27

She was less than helpful!

I suggested visual timetable over conversations about him saying he needs to go to violin now, her telling him to wait and then him needing the toilet. I told her it was his 'escape' because he was anxious because he thought he'd be late - in fact he was late every week until I asked the violin teacher to tell the teacher his lesson was 9.30am, I paid for a lesson from 9.30am so to make sure he got there at 9.30am instead of playing control games with an 8yo. blush

When meeting with HT one day I asked her how visual time table was working - apparently it wasn't needed so she never set one up . Of course his problems disappeared over night after them pissing her off for the previous 2 terms. hmm

I'm hanging off your every word here claw2 Its helping me make so much more sense of DS and the things he says and does. and why. grin

claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 11:04:24

Glad im being helpful and not sounding like a know it all grin

Visuals cost nothing and are really easy for any school to use, I despair, I really do! No wonder your ds feels so out of control, he has no structure in school. The less structure he has the more he will try to get some control back.

Ds's first school I found out what worked well for ds at home and made my own and took them into school. Bought a cheap laminator and even laminated them myself.

Ds had sequencing charts to help him get dressed, as you said earlier lots of rolling on the floor (for ds that's a sensory/anxiety thing the rolling on the floor)

I used to roll him up in the quilt BEFORE getting dressed (quite roughly) to provide some feedback before attempting to get dressed. Then sequencing chart, as when faced with too many choices ds would get confused as to what to put on first, then next etc. Its weird as ds likes choices to feel in control, but when faced with too many, it really confuses him!

He struggled with getting dressed/undressed for PE, so I made one for school too.

You could even ask school for a copy of his daily lessons ie what happens first, then next in school and make your own visual timetable or checklist.

Try things out at home first, such as the timer, if it works, then send into school.

claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 11:20:49

This might be helpful. You can also book 20 minute telephone appointments with the NAS behaviour specialist. They then send you their advice in writing via email, with targets, strategies, plans etc, which you could print off and show their recommendations to school. Might carry a bit more weight, coming from an ASD 'expert'.

Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 13:21:54

The word a 'few' is similar to the word 'later', ds struggles with 'later', when is later exactly, what is a few exactly!

Yes, exactly! DS1 doesn't "do" vague. Only precise. It is not a "few" it is 2 or 3 and he has to know exactly how many a "few" is. And then a "few" always has to be that number.

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 14:11:00

Yep, triggle he has to know if by a few I mean 3, but if I say no 2 then he says but that's a couple a few is 3, or if I say four he says 3 is a few. I've never worked out why he has to quantify a few when he will only ever see it as 3. Except now I just know to use a number!

claw2 You are being helpful, tell me all you know! Not all will be the same here or work with my DS but with any advice I can either try it or discard it because I know it won't work. You certainly don't come across as a know it all - just someone who clearly knows, or more to the point, understands it all better than me. grin

Loving the laminated lists. Thinking I may make some for DS with 'things to remember!' eg - what to out in bag to go to school and what to bring home again! Then a list for when he gets home - hang up coat, put shoes away, empty bag, give mum letters, put lunchbox in kitchen, make a drink THEN minecraft! At least then the computer bit is tangible and doesn't feel like its one of those 'later' things that he can't work out how much later is. He does always do these jobs when we get in but all they are to him is inconveniences stopping his minecraft time he's been waiting for since he got up!

claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 15:45:29

All that I know, shouldn't take too long grin Exactly, you can give some a try, adjust some or discard. You know your ds best and what is/isn't worth a try. Good luck.

and oh yes minecraft, or youtube watching others playing minecraft is ds's latest obsession too!

Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 17:32:06

We have laminated lists around the house. I've had a few comments about the toileting instructions from guests. grin

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 21:11:55

Oh need toileting instructions - things like pull your clothes up and wash your hands before you leave the bathroom grin

Do any of your DC's frequently talk to themselves? DS does it all the time and even had a conversation with himself him Tesco this evening blush


claw2 Tue 30-Jul-13 21:32:55

Oh yes Youarewinning!

Ds used to have lots of imaginary friends, a whole family of them, including a dog and he spoke to them constantly. I felt sure this must be a good sign of ds not having ASD and a very good imagination and was telling paed about his imaginary friends.

Later during the same appointment paed asked me 'does your ds talk to himself much'. I replied 'no' to which he reminded me talking to imaginary friends would be talking to yourself! blush

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 21:45:18

DS just does not stop chatting to himself at times! Even today whilst his swimming teacger is addressing the group you can see his mouth moving - I'm thinking she's gonna tell him in a mo to stop talking over her. But in fact realise he's not - he is just chatting to himself! Either that or was just doing one of his random facial things he does.

Yet today car went in for MOT, mum picked us up from garage with my Dnephew 21 months and took us to my cousins for an hour. My aunt and cousins DD (20 months) there.

DS is full of it in car making DN laugh really hard. Get into cousins and he is quiet, find microwave toy and keeps putting things in and loving watching the food spin round inside - I know because he told me how great it was hmm Then they out on TV and DS sat glued to something. My Auntie commented he was quiet asked him how he was - no response from DS. I prod him and say auntie is talking to you, she repeats the question - he just looked at her, said fine and got up to walk away. She tried tickling his side saying you can smile you know. He just looked confused gave a smile and walked off.

He comes across as so rude blush Got back in car and he started really playing with DN again and didn't shut up until he went to bed (except when swimming as he couldn't talk with face in water grin)

Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 21:47:15

Yep - our toileting instructions are step by step. grin Very clear.

And yes, DS1 talks to himself all the time. And to me all the time. And to his brother all the time. He pretty just talks all the time. And god help you if you don't answer, because he will not stop until you do. And then he STILL doesn't stop. grin

It's not imaginary stuff or imaginary friend though. He's reciting facts, figures, car makes, whatever current obsession he has.

youarewinning Tue 30-Jul-13 22:03:15

Yes that's what DS is reciting - oh that's a BMW, that's a Audi, which is your favourite, I prefer the BMW, when I grow up I'm going to drive one of those, Jeremy Clarkson says BMW's are......<insert fact>, I'm going to design a car that does..........<insert idea, do you think that's possible, why is that called a roundabout when it's not round, the speed limit along here is............

It would appear I'm not actually required to answer thank fuck grin

Trigglesx Tue 30-Jul-13 22:37:30

Not fair. I have to answer ALWAYS.... or he will say over and over "Mum? Mum?? Did you hear me?? I saw an Alfa Romeo!! and a Bentley!! Mum?? MUM??? ....." hmm Yes, yes, alfa romeo, Bentley, yes. And he's already on the next sentence. grin

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 00:53:14

I always thought ds had a brilliant imagination, the imaginary friends etc. It has become clearer as he has got older, its not so much imagination but more an extension of his 'jargon' speech when he was younger. He doesn't know something or the words to use, so he just makes it up.

Its more separating fantasy and reality he has difficulties with. Ds doesn't so much quote facts, he makes up his own or puts his own slant on the facts he does know and he can talk for hours about his made up facts!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 09:02:31

Haha triggle DS is always on the next sentence before he finishes the previous one I have time to answer grin

claw2 On the surface DS has a fantastic imagination - but like your DS it based on what he knows as facts. For example he'll play with his cars and have them all lined up out on the car mat. The police cars are doing all sorts of stopping other cars - but he's just reinacting episodes of traffic cops or the police car can only do what police cars actually do. He's never been into Ben 10 or Star Wars or anything else his peers have had an interest in. Except bloody minecraft!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 13:21:41

YAHOOOOOOOOO claw2 the giving timings such as after breakfast and after lunch is working sort of grin

Wanted minecraft this morning - told him he knows no computer before 9am. So he plans whats on TV until then - no mention of breakfast, so I say at 8.30am he needs breakfast and to wash/dress before computer time (so before 9am). He went and made his breakfast in such a hurry half the coco pops ended up on the floor, over the worktop and in the cutlery drawer and did his teeth for 30 seconds unprompted.

He had his hour. Told him he could have another half hour in the afternoon. 12noon he asks for it - will I ever learn?!

I said after lunch he could have half hour before he goes swimming with his friend and then back to friends house.

Make him lunch - 4 mouthfuls later he's full up hmm

So I said he could use computer half hour from the time he started his lunch. OK he said, waited 5 minutes then scoffed the lot. grin

So I've realised I'm going to have to be very specific about time, when that time comes and whats expected of him during this time. It's not fair to him for me to keep moving goalposts like today but I was testing what you said against his reactions to see exactly where I was at and how to solve it.

lougle Wed 31-Jul-13 13:54:42

Can you use an alarm clock with him? Often we see the intense time watching as a negative thing because it's so debilitating - he can't do anything else because he's watching the time.

Well, we don't do that if we have an important meeting, do we? We set an alarm clock.

If you can demonstrate that the alarm clock absolutely will go off when he sets it, then he can be free to use every other bit of time constructively.

So, you could start by doing a 'dummy run' for a non important time. Say, 'let's set the alarm clock for 2.45pm.' When it goes off, you have confirmed it works.

Then, he can set the alarm clock for Top Gear, or whatever, and knows that he doesn't have to fret.

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 14:16:45

Youarewinning Great!! Im sure with a bit of fine tuning from you to what suits him best, you will have it sorted smile

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 19:05:46

lougle that's a good idea. I can tell him what he needs to do before the alarm goes off, as when the alarm goes off X is happening and he needs to be ready.

I have to say I'm proud of him this afternoon. We met a friend and him and her DD (8) went swimming. They can go in alone and we watched. Then we went back to friends and he played out with both hers DD's and some of the neighbourhood kids. (by play I mean mostly on the outside but he was there being social!)
He seemed really calm, and despite getting upset in the car on the way home because he wasn't sure how to deal with some of the things he played well. grin

lougle Wed 31-Jul-13 19:12:43


youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 21:57:29

Oh FFS spoke to soon!

This this evening I had my friends 2 DD's whilst she took her DSD home.
DS was getting annoyed because he couldn't sit on the sofa where he always sits and therefore would have to turn head an inch to watch TV - so I gave him bean bag on floor. I won't give in to his strops! Younger DD2 (8) then suggested DS sat next to her and she'd move over a bit - queue the fussing of who's sitting an inch or 2 the wrong way.
Watch film, eat dinner whilst watching and then decide to watch another. Friends younger DD2 is clever in that she knows when the answer to something will be no and so gets DS to ask - still no!
DS was doing his random commenting out loud and mimicking lines he knows with the film and they kept telling him to shut up - fair enough! and I took the control away as he kept trying to flick back and forth over and to bits he likes!
So second film the older DD1 (9) sits in corner - other 2 moan but I say its fair as they sat there before and she was on one end of sofa - we have a huge corner sofa btw! So the DD2 suggests sitting on floor, DS moves with her and get's comfy, then she suggests sitting on the box so he moves, she then wants him to swap places as she wants the TV side, he does, then he decides he's not comfy so lays on floor. The DD2 gets up and askes in the ever so nicely sickly sweet voice "DS, please can you move so I can sit on the floor" I can see DS getting annoyed at this point and we'd already had tears as they'd asked too many questions of him at one point so I said "You'll have to sit on sofa or the box, it's not on for him to keep moving for you" She wasn't impressed. hmm So anyway DS moved a bit over where he was lying and she laid in front of him - he got cross because he couldn't see but she did actually move over a bit.
So anyway I knew by this point DS would be holding it together - and was doing a fab job grin

So they leave, DS asks me where the little and I mean 2x2 inch bit of paper with carraiges on is that he gave me the other day. We'd had maggots in the kitchen bin shock and he'd become anxious about sleeping and rubbish so emptied his bed of all the crap important to him bits he has to sleep with! He'd told me it was rubbish so I'd binned it.

Cue floods and I mean distraught tears. sad I was trying to find out what leaflet he'd got it from to find a replacement (was going to do a MN help me thread!) 20 minutes of tears and I searched the recycling bin - which I'd recently emptied. Anyway eventually found it in the bin in his room - and he's now collapsed in bed exhausted clutching his piece of paper.

God love him - he really can only handle short bouts of socialness before he gets himself overwhelmed sad

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 21:58:48

Might add was the same friend we'd spent this afternoon with and the trip is a 3 hr round trip so I'd offered to have them all at mine if they/she wanted.

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 22:09:49

Wow quite a lot happening for your ds today and a busy social day, he did amazing.

My ds would have managed about 10 minutes of being in the company of other kids, in his house and withdrew to youtube vids on his ipod, with his face 2 inches away from it, doing his little head shake thing or shut in his room, lining things up.

Ds would also have no qualms telling them all to go home now, if they spoke to him!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 22:46:57

Oh DS has been known to shout "I want them to GO HOME NOW" or at others "I want to GO HOME NOW" when things have bothered him.

He's getting older - 9 in 3 weeks and so is beginning to control his emotions.
He generally starts withdrawing when it gets overwhelming - hence why I did DVD - an easy way of making sure as we had visitors that DS didn't actually have to play anymore iyswim?
He holds most of it in and then something else will set him over the edge - but I'm beginning to understand it is just the overwhelmingness (is that a word?) of being around others.

We have a day at the beach tomorrow (11am til prob 4ish). So he can have minecraft for an hour in morning and then will probably shut himself off on it for 2 hours or so when we get home. I'll let him if he behaves himself wink Beach is usually a good one as he can play alone and get much needed space if he needs it.

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:17:41

Im still working on it, ds just doesn't get why it is rude to say it out loud, no matter how I explain it. I get 'but I do want them to go home'! If I say they wont want to come again, I get 'good, I don't want them to'. We have more success with meeting 'friends' outside of the house, ds is much more tolerable of others on neutral ground.

You have a good understanding, Im not sure if overwhelmingness is a word, if not it should be smile

Beach sounds lovely and looks like you will certainly have the weather for it tomorrow. We are planning a 'pool' day, in the massive paddling pool in the garden, filled with cold water and inflatable sitting on things, which I will have to get into too, oh joy!

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 23:28:24

I have been having a think over the past few days as need to get everything down to tell Camhs in September.

I remember calling a HV when I returned to UK (DS was 2) as felt things weren't right - that he existed in his own hyperactive bubble and never seemed to relax. She told me to cut out sodium benzoate and seemed uninterested beyond this. I use to describe him as like the Tazmanian devil on speed. grin

Then when he was 4ish I mentioned I wondered if it was his hearing because he really did not seem to notice others around him talking to him. Also he spoke (and still does) is quite a loud and aggressive sounding tone. Turned out he did have fluid in his ears and was referred to ENT who said his hearing itself was fine.

Turns out the fluid in ear is probably related to the fact he has allergies. Which only really began to show up at 4/5 leading to his idiopathic (in that no allergen was identified) anaphylactic reaction when he was 6.

I do think DS copes better out of the house than in - he seems more anxious and withdrawn but definitely is less frustrated. Your really testing my brain but making me realise so much. thanks

Pool day sounds great grin

youarewinning Wed 31-Jul-13 23:29:11

Im still working on it, ds just doesn't get why it is rude to say it out loud, no matter how I explain it. I get 'but I do want them to go home'! If I say they wont want to come again, I get 'good, I don't want them to'. Have been there!

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:50:50

We have had fluid in the ears and this was blamed for his speech delay when younger. It is more to do with his audio processing and/or his level of interest, he is not going to interact if you don't interest him, he can take or leave you.

Im not convinced, at developmental hearing test at HV's, which ds failed miserably, he sat on my lap twisting his shoe laces, while she stood behind ringing bells and shouting his name. He was totally ignoring her, he had no interest in her and was blocking her out. That kid could hear a sweet wrapper open from 100 miles!

I was told oh he must have a cold, bring him back next month. He failed the same standing behind you hearing test, again and again and again and I was told he had glue ear and talk of grommets, which I refused.

He eventually passed a hearing test, ages later, one of those where you don't have to respond, they just bounce some frequencies through head phones and measure it electronically.

His speech delay of not being able to pronounce certain sounds, resolved once he could read. McDonalds for example was called 'HcDonalds'. I used to try and try to get him to pronounce it properly. Then one day we went to McDonalds, he looked at the sign, read it and asked 'why didnt you tell me its called McDonalds and not HcDonalds'! So now he doesn't have to rely on hearing sounds, he can read them, its resolved!

claw2 Wed 31-Jul-13 23:58:44

Ds also speaks very loudly when relaxed and i have to remind him to turn the volume down and very quietly and mumbles when anxious and I have to remind him to speak up and complete silence when overwhelmed!

Im off to bed, I wont be around for a couple of weeks, have lots of things planned, its been lovely chatting and I hope you have a great day tomorrow smile

youarewinning Thu 01-Aug-13 00:17:56

Thanks. Enjoy your couple of weeks out and about.

Your help and advice has been invaluable - thanks again

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