Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Language for Thinking

(236 Posts)
lougle Fri 24-May-13 10:40:33

Poltergoose very kindly sent me LfT and I have been reading through it.

I have a question:

The assessment pages have shaded boxes in the different Language levels (ABC) next to various questions.

Are those shaded boxes indicating that the particular question is not scored for that level? Or that it is? Or something completely different? confused

There is no reference anywhere that I can see, to the significance of the shadings.

moondog Fri 24-May-13 15:55:47

If you PM me I can give you some more info.
LFT is great but the instructions are poor.

Ooh Moondog, can I trial your measurement system for that other book you mentioned please?

Lougle I agree that the instructions are rubbish. But I've got to know the book quite well now and have decided that regardless of the assessments there are enough individual scenarios that I will just go through all of them for all stages anyway, as even the easy ones are sometimes opportunities for further talking and discussions. I felt after assessment that ds could still benefit from doing the easier ones first iyswim.

lougle Fri 24-May-13 17:44:52

Thank you, Moondog - you have mail smile

Star, isn't it nice to see a resource that doesn't claim to be imbued with a magical potion which can only be squeezed out by an expensive rare-breed 'professional' over a period of 20 years, but instead empowers the reader to help the child themselves? grin

Handywoman Fri 24-May-13 18:14:10

I wouldn't mind having some instructions, moondog. You sent me the assessment sheet but am not even sure how to start using LFT -thought I was being thick... Then we started SaLT so Kinda shelved <lazy> but I know I need to get cracking with it as dd2 needs a LOT of help. Can I PM you too?

moondog Fri 24-May-13 20:14:35

Yes Handy.
Instructions for it were too vague for me and believe me, I am the sort of manual bore who has them by the side of the bed for fun. grin

lougle Fri 24-May-13 20:41:44

I think, having read your crib sheet, moondog (thank you again!) that it's a case of the process being so logical, that the authors perhaps didn't remember they had lived and breathed the process for months on end by the time they wrote the manual grin.

ouryve Fri 24-May-13 22:00:33

isn't it nice to see a resource that doesn't claim to be imbued with a magical potion which can only be squeezed out by an expensive rare-breed 'professional' over a period of 20 years, but instead empowers the reader to help the child themselves?

No experience of LfT but yes, I've noticed that resources like this are alarmingly thin on the ground. And still bloody expensive.

ouryve Fri 24-May-13 22:04:19

And, having read the blurb, I'm ordering it to use with DS1! He really struggles with inference.

starfish71 Fri 24-May-13 22:29:44

Hi moondog, have the book but would really appreciate instructions if you are willing.

DisAstrophe Fri 24-May-13 23:00:42

Just ordered the book too! Might be a bit advance for ds but he sometimes surprises me with his ability to answer questions about picture books.

Hope people post with how they are getting on. Will not get mine for a few days.

lougle Fri 24-May-13 23:08:59

I did DD2's first assessment today.

It's very interesting to see how her mind works. All her answers were 'logical' when you picked through them, but the focus was so far out of where the 'average' person would.

Some examples:

The assessment was about a boy who visited the cinema with his mum.
The picture shows the audience in front of the cinema screen, which is displaying a film that features aliens.

Q: "What are the children looking at?"
A: 'The screen.'

I think DD3 would have said that they were looking at the aliens. DD2 was literal - they were looking at the screen. The fact that it showed aliens was irrelevant to her.

Q: "What's the difference between an alien and a dog?"
A: 'An alien has a planet, a dog doesn't. It has a house.'

I mean...well, yes, but there are so many differences between aliens and dogs. She chose where they live as the key one!

Q: "Which is better, TV or Cinema?"
A: 'Cinema'
Q: "Why?"
A: 'Because you don't have to switch on any buttons.'

Just grin.


DS answered the difference between a dog and an alien as:

A dog only has two eyes.

So there you go.

In response to your previous post, yes it is very refreshing to have something that isn't presented as mysterious and incapable of being delivered by someone without years of in house tea drinking training., - and that hasn't been deliberately made to be complicated to pander to the egos of supposed 'professionals'.

lougle Fri 24-May-13 23:15:31

At least your DS focused on the alien itself and not the habitat! grin

moondog Sat 25-May-13 09:11:30

I'm not interested in interventions if they can't be administered by reasonable intelligent non speech and language therapists. Unless I end up in a job whereby I am with a very small group of children with communication issues for most of the day (highly unlikely) there is absolutely no point in me being the only one to know how to run something.

S/lts are encouraged to work to a consultancy model which is a good thing I think. However that means you have to give those who work with the child a detailed, data driven intervention that all parties can understand. When you do that, it works like a dream. I went to see a fantastic classroom assistant yesterday. The programme we have set up and the data kept means that within 5 minutes I could see exactly what the child had done, is doing and will do and how said child getting on every step of the way. Everyone is happy-me, assistant, child, SENCO, teacher, parents. I see this assistant and child about twice a term for about 30 minutes each time.

Star (and anyone else), message me for details of LFT tracker..

Ineedmorepatience Sat 25-May-13 09:21:31

Someone mentioned LFT to me a while ago and I tried to get school to buy it to do with Dd3 but they wouldnt sad

I might have to buy it myself. Dd3's higher language skills or lack of them are really holding her back now.

I love, love, love LfT. I used it at school for 3 years and my DS used it at his school. I found it extremely enlightening and it gave me so much insight into how my charge's mind worked and it gave me lots of direction on what areas to work on. My charge was very articulate and this masked his pretty serious deficits. At 10 this articulate and expressive child could only say that the difference between an alien and a dog was that a dog was a bit smaller. Give him odd one out cards and he could always choose the correct one. Ask him to explain why, he just couldn't. Lots of practice at describing similar features and uses and he slowly improved.

moondog Sat 25-May-13 18:17:41

I hope it went out to everyone who asked for it.
Had a lot of requests so it's gone out in groups of three or four.
Let me know if I missed anyone out who messaged me. smile

Handywoman Sat 25-May-13 18:32:26

thank you so much, moondog – absolutely brilliant x

starfish71 Sat 25-May-13 19:57:57

Thank you moondog, fantastic smile

moondog Sat 25-May-13 21:04:38

Ok, sent off the next batch.
Hope all arrived safely.
In throes of bbq and wine has been taken so cannot guarantee safe departure. grin

lougle Sat 25-May-13 21:29:25

The hardest thing for me, I think, is that I'm so used to interpreting DD2's language, that I have to stop myself and think 'would it make sense if I didn't know how DD2 uses language?' because most of it does make sense to me despite the grammar being painfully wrong.

moondog Sat 25-May-13 21:51:06

That's an important point. It has to be (if possible) robust enough to stand alone without Mum or Dad interpreting.

You could record each short session and then watch it later or get someone else to score it to check against yours?

You could send me a clip to score if you like (though I'm harsh on ds I think as I prefer to ensure gaps are filled rather than give the benefit of the doubt often).

moondog Sat 25-May-13 22:09:28

If you follow my protocol (assess then debrief up to three times) and also take notes on each answer on each assessment procedure, you will see responses improving.

lougle Sat 25-May-13 22:13:57

I'll do that, definitely. It's so useful to have a plan at last.

Star -I might do that, thank you.

lougle Sun 26-May-13 15:00:10

Link to video of assessment


Many thanks in advance, Star.

Anyone else who has a copy of LfT is welcome to take a look, too!

ouryve Sun 26-May-13 15:22:52

Thanks - I'll have to watch that later. DS2's blasting the Chuggington iPad app in my ear, at the moment, and I can't hear a thing!

someoneoutthere Sun 26-May-13 15:45:10

Thanks moondog. Lougle, I will be watching that too.

Handywoman Sun 26-May-13 16:11:01

Oh Lougle! It is like watching my dd2 right down to the response to your initial question (a sigh and a heart sink at needing to produce expressive language) and the content, length of responses and sort of sentence construction - breathtakingly similar. Your dd2 processes language a bit quicker than my dd2 though, my dd2 eould spend longer coming up with an answer. Sorry Lougle, I know I have said it before, I am honestly not some kind of weirdo stalker(!) it is so interesting to see another child with such similar language.

Handywoman Sun 26-May-13 16:16:04

Also the mannerisms and trying to distract with a ooooh boing.

Love the 'you don't have to press the buttons on a puppet show' answer.

Has she seen an SLT yet or still waiting/saving up?

lougle Sun 26-May-13 17:50:33

Still waiting for NHS SALT to visit school. I wonder if I should get her to watch these videos? Probably wouldn't have time.

lougle Sun 26-May-13 21:23:46

So, any offerings of a score? It will be interesting to see if we score the same smile

ouryve Sun 26-May-13 21:39:01

I can't score until mine arrives - probably Wednesday. Bloody bank holidays!

DS1's older than your DD, but he has days when he'd give similar answers (and try to wriggle out of a few) and days when "what's the difference between a puppet and a dog?" would have him waxing philosophical, and probably giggling hysterically, for the rest of the day. The question about whether the people watching were enjoying it or not - he'd be more likely to impose his own feelings on it. If he decided that he felt negatively about puppet shows as an idea, then there is no way the people in the picture would ever enjoy a puppet show, now matter how wide the grins.

I don't have access to the book til after half term, but from memory I'll have a go.

Ok, 17 questions, only scoring the Why? not the 'Which is better?' etc. I made it 32. I don't have the assessment example responses in front of me though, so I might have been a bit off. smile

lougle Sun 26-May-13 22:28:25

17 questions because I forgot to ask when they went to the puppet show blush

I marked her with 36 in total. My gut instinct is that you've marked her correctly, though, because I don't think she's level C language, I really don't.

Mmmm...that's another question in itself. What happens if the answer is linguistically plausible but just plain odd?

For example, her answer that a puppet show was better because you don't have to switch on any buttons. It's true. You don't. A completely barmy answer as to why it would be better. One that most children would never have spring to mind, but she isn't most children wink.

So, what happens then? Do you accept it because it is linguistically plausible, or do you try and give a more 'mainstream' suggestion?

Seemed a little irrelevant and off the wall to me! But that describes our DC quite well. I marked it as a 2.

As an assessment I wouldn't be suggesting answers unless she'd got really stuck. The other 2 assessments are very similar so I wouldn't want to put words in their mouth.

During the 50 scenarios, I'd generally write down the responses without much comment then, at the end use anything that came up to start a discussion about what other answers there could be. Without suggesting the answers given were wrong at all.

She's seems to me to be borderline level B/C just going on the DC I used it with, who was a little stronger than your DD but 9yo and was level C. I started with the picture and read the story but soon progressed to him reading the story, he was a very good decoder. It actually made it easier for him to remember the details.

lougle Sun 26-May-13 23:01:22

Thanks EllenJane.

Bless her heart, I don't know what all the flopping on the sofa was! Probably stress/distraction. She smiles even more when she's stressed; it's odd.

She is very cute, Lougle. She worked very well for her mum.

lougle Sun 26-May-13 23:09:47

She did grin She is cute. Very cute.

lougle Sun 26-May-13 23:55:34

Isn't it strange, Handywoman, that our children are so alike?

Handywoman Mon 27-May-13 00:04:54

So unbelievably strange. I think my dd2 is level B although I have not assessed yet.

Relevance is a BIG target for dd2 in SLT. I think it is down to pragmatics, giving an answer that would be commonly understood. NOT my dd2's forte at all.

So uncanny that they are so alike. My own dd2 also hsd the cuteness and this is definitely a barrier to understanding her problems, for many professionals we meet.

I feel I should video my dd2 now, Lougle for you to see!

lougle Mon 27-May-13 07:36:15

Oh do! that's the really useful thing about the video, I think. The transcript is useful, but the video shows all the little mannerisms which go with it. The thing that strikes me with dd2 is that she uses the same tone for certain phrases.. it's like listening to a recording.

ouryve Mon 27-May-13 11:15:04

DS1 was funny when he was acquiring language, since so much of his initial communication was echolalic phrases learnt elsewhere. I could tell exactly who he was quoting because he almost perfectly mimicked that accent and pitch of their voice.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 11:27:28

Yes, DD1 was very much like that. I used to say that it was like she had a 'phrase bank' with shelves that she picked the phrases from, then said them in order. She will say ' 'sides and for startis, you didn't....' She's heard those phrases and put them together.

With DD2 it's it's like she's echolaic of herself, if that makes sense. Once she's established a phrase, then every time she says it, she uses the same mannerisms and tone each time. She doesn't seem to pick it up from other people...she just gets stuck in a particular mannerism and tone. It's not natural. It's often 'older' in style, despite her being quite young for her age in general (she's almost 6).

For example, she says 'I guess you're doing <x>, hey?'. Every time she says it, she cocks her head to the left and puts her hand on her left hip.

moondog Mon 27-May-13 19:11:33

She's very sweet Lougle and you are very patient and calm which is always a good thing. I can't give professional guidance over the Internet but the discussions going on around this language sample are really useful and the way in which I encourage classroom assistants and teachers to think and discuss. The point with LFT is that no two people will come up with the exact same score but this is fine. It is the discussion and thoughts generated which are so useful.

You will make a decision to start at a level and as you progress through it, you will see how she gets on and will be able to adjust accordingly. This process empowers the person doing LFT. I really know things are going well when staff approach me and say they want to go up/down a language level and/or module. I get them to explain to me why and they do. Lo and behold, it's always a data driven decision.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 19:19:06

Moondog, thanks for your comments smile You give so much of yourself here, so please don't think that you are being asked to over step your professional boundaries!

It's very helpful to discuss our children in the light of this tool - it gives an objectivity to our hunches about our children.

I did the first scenario with DD2 today. She scored a sketchy 11/18 on language level B. I'm not sure if I was a bit generous. It was very useful. Some questions she clearly understood, but wasn't able to articulate her reply sufficiently ie. 'They'll walk away' instead of 'they'll cross the road' or 'They'll go to the other side.' More open ended questions (Tell me about the story) she was completely unable to do, but instead focused on why it would be bad not to use the crossing.

It was really useful to view it on video too - so much fiddling and diversion tactics. It must be quite stressful to her.

moondog Mon 27-May-13 19:42:26

Video is such a useful tool-for both the tested and the tester.
As Star says, better to be the tough cop and score meanly.
You will always be of more help if you under estimate what a child can do rather than over estimate. As well as having a brutally honest baseline, the only way to go then is upwards.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 19:55:31

Yes, I think I need to be meaner. I knew exactly what she meant when she said 'they'll walk away', but someone else wouldn't know that she knows they'll cross the road. If you look purely at the language, her answer didn't convey whether they would actually cross the road - they could (from her answer) change their minds and walk further along the same side.

We'll see...I'll repeat in a day or two and see if any of our discussion afterwards has sunk in.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 19:58:06

For anyone who is doing LfT and is going to video and transcribe, Google Chrome has a great transcription tool. You save your video to the computer, then load it in Google Chrome. It has command keys for starting and stopping the video audio (Escape), fastforward/rewind (F4/F3) and speed up/slow down (F1/F2).

Then you simply type in the page. From there, you can copy and paste to word.

moondog Mon 27-May-13 20:01:12

So Lougle, did you debrief after doing the first scenario with her?
Put to one side and do it again tomorrow.

Thanks for the info. on transcription.
Very useful.

moondog Mon 27-May-13 20:03:40

Crossed posts.
Yes, be meaner. grin

My main aim in using LFT with staff is to help them understand that by constantly interpreting/assuming/making allowances for the child they aren't helping in the long run. We can only help by methodically going through the quirky/incorrect responses, modelling more appropriate responses and reassessing at a later date to see if the therapeutic input has made a mark.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 20:16:27

Yes, which was very interesting in itself.

For example, with the question that said 'put the word 'dangerous' in your sentence.' She still seemed really unable to do it. She told me why it would be dangerous:

""If they could um cross over the road without even looking and if they run across the road they'll get killed."

So I said:

That's right, it would be dangerous. So it's dangerous to cross the road without using the crossing.

With the question about what they will do when the green man shows, I said:

"They walk across the road, dont' they?"

Then, DD2 volunteered: "To the other side."

So she knew they would go to the other side, but it seemed that she needed to hear 'across the road' to encourage her to volunteer that information.

I don't think it's so much that she doesn't have that language...just that she really thinks that I know what she's thinking. DH is very much like that - he uses any word that springs to mind, even if it's quite tangential, then I have to work out what he was trying to say. He finds language quite a difficult area too apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

ouryve Mon 27-May-13 20:42:06

Yep - DS1 still has stock phrases that he says in a certain way in certain situations - pretty much as if something has flicked a "say this" switch.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 21:04:21

What's most frustrating, is that this is a child who I have been told is 'fine' by two schools. Her current school is really lovely, and her teacher is very good for her. But her issues with language still haven't been picked up.

I just hope that when the SALT comes I get a chance to talk to her (here, I have been told, the only way I'd actually know she'd been is if DD2 tells me she's seen a SALT shock), and that she digs deeper than picture cards with objects on them.

ouryve Mon 27-May-13 21:08:06

I think "fine" is often code for compliant. (Not something either of my boys could ever be accused of!)

Handywoman Mon 27-May-13 21:13:29

Just done an assessment. dd2 is firmly language level C! Yet flummoxed by 'what is happening in the story', showing her language profile nicely. Mused a bit over the Q 'what's the difference between a dog and an alien?' A 'an alien doesn't exist' (not completely structured but succinct and fab vocab).

Really impressed with this resource. Thanks moondog for the helping hand.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 21:14:44

Yes. I went on a school trip a couple of weeks ago. DD2 got a bit upset that she got mud on her tights and raised her voice a bit. One of the LSAs commented on 'that's when you know they're really tired'. I said 'Oh, she's often like this at home...' and she said 'Really?? She's quiet as a mouse at school.'

Yep. Exactly. She's happy, but when she doesn't understand, she sits quiet.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 21:16:52

See, handywoman - an alien doesn't exist. That is a nice answer. Not flippin' 'An alien has a planet, a dog doesn't. It just has a house.' grin

moondog Mon 27-May-13 21:18:19

Remember to read the descriptions of the language levels in the manual.
Read it all if you feel up to it.
There are some hugely useful sections.
I devised the instructions to simplify and tighten up the scoring procedure but it is in no way exhaustive.
A lot of people can't/won't read manuals so I have to work out effective time efficient ways of getting key information over to them.

lougle Mon 27-May-13 21:24:56

I adore manuals blush My heart skipped a beat when I opened the envelope from Poltergoose - a shiny, pristine manual with thick, crisp pages and even a CD-ROM. grin

moondog Mon 27-May-13 21:26:34


Oh Lougle that video is brilliant. What a great therapist you are. Let me dig out my LFT and tell you how I would score it. Though I don't pretend to be an expert on anything other than ds

lougle Mon 27-May-13 22:11:59

If I'd known then what I do now, I'd have studied and become a SALT, to be honest. I love language and all that it encompasses. I feel passionate about empowering children to communicate, whatever their ability. I am stunned by how much the children with PMLD I see communicate despite never saying a <intelligible> word. I am fascinated by the lengths that my own children go to, to get their thoughts across.

I looked at the course at's an hour away. Not sure it's doable sad

vikinglights Tue 28-May-13 07:22:20

Wow, thanks everybody for this really interesting discussion.

I bought language for thinking to have something concrete to work on with my DD2 (5) who's english is hmm what can I say er 'interesting'.

We are bilingual and she is much stronger in her other language, although she's been a bit 'quirky' in her language development there as well IMO

The main issue seems to be expressive rather than receptive language, and its the grammar and syntax that are all over the place, sometimes she will use grammatical structures from her other language (which seems perfectly 'normal' to me) but she also has an awful lot of strange constructions that she uses that don't occur in the other language. I'm hoping that we will be able to use LfT to get some structured 'training' in as just modeling correct english is not working...

For what its worth I aksed her what is the difference between a dog and an alien (and after some vocab work to translate alien) her answer was 'a dogs got 2 eyes' grin

Handywoman Tue 28-May-13 12:46:40

'A dog's got 2 eyes'! Well derrrrrrr...... Love it smile

starfish71 Tue 28-May-13 13:31:21

This a great resource thank you so much for the extra information!

Have done the assessment with DS this morning, some interesting answers, what's the difference between an alien and a dog? They don't use bathrooms. What will happen after the film has finished? They have to pay for it.

Did the 1st scenario, going to film it next time. Am really excited about using this.

moondog Tue 28-May-13 14:20:42

I think it is fantastic to see parents empowering themselves and each other. So useful. Imagine the potential! smile

Grrrrrr, I want to be a part of the revolution but I can't find my LFT atm.

I've gone through several boxes containing such delights as numicon, headsprout readers, VB-Mapp etc. but my LFT must be well and truly buried.

Sorry Lougle. I will get down to it at some point (soon hopefully as it is half-term and raining so what better time to talk about the differences between aliens and dogs eh?)

lougle Tue 28-May-13 14:33:06

'Tis very exciting grin

Perhaps we need a 'roll call':

Using Lft:

Lougle - DD2 (5.9)
Starfish71 - DS
Handywoman - DD
vikinglights - DD2 (5)
DisAstrophe - DS
StarlightMcKenzie -DS
ouryve - DS

Considering Lft:

Poltergoose (thank you, lovely)

Encouraging and guiding, but absolutely not advising:

Thank you, everyone, for this - it's so much nicer doing it together!!

lougle Tue 28-May-13 14:36:25

x-posted with you Star. Don't stress - you'll find it smile

The aliens will be waiting for you.

Something to make you all chuckle:

DD3 pushed DD2 in the ribs. DD2 came running to me and said 'She hurt me in the bras!'


Oh I can join in that. DS is currently 'delivering' a pink and blue teddy bear from between dd's legs. They just gone married and won a dance competition and now they are having a baby.

Sometimes NOT doing LFT or anything for that matter is valuable beyond measurement (but don't tell any LA bods or schools that I said that please). grin

lougle Tue 28-May-13 15:34:27

DDs were enacting 'A little princess' today and DD2 was 'being the snotty two-faced bully but I'm actually not a bully'.

Handywoman Tue 28-May-13 18:03:28

'She hurt me in the bras' oh how brilliant!

I love these, life would be more dull without these gems.

LOL Lougle

vikinglights Tue 28-May-13 19:02:12

Loving she hurt me in the bras!

We got a bit further tonight, turns out a cinema is better than a television because you don't have to turn it on! I'm getting a sense of deja vu and wondering if dd's language use / thought patterns are more wonky than i thought......

lougle Tue 28-May-13 19:37:34

DD2 said the same, pretty much. Except she wasn't quite as clear. She said 'you don't have to switch any buttons.' But I interpreted that to mean that either you don't have to turn the cinema on, or that you don't have to press the buttons on the controller to choose what you're watching.

mumgoingcrazy Tue 28-May-13 21:04:01

I've been watching this thread and am so incredibly close to ordering this. Just wondered if I told you (briefly) about my dd whether you think it'd be useful.

She is 5.11, her vocab seems to be good. She's an above average reader however she lacks the comprehension behind what she's reading. Her social skills and communication are awful. At home with just us and her sister her communication is pretty good but the more distant the person the less they get. She's quite inappropriate with her language eg her teacher is telling her off so she sings gangnam style to her and calls her a sexy lady. Time out, being sent to the head doesn't bother her at all, no idea about hierarchy. She's often resorts to tears if its something she doesn't want to do. If she asks me a why question, if I was to turn it around and say 'why do you think that might be' she can't give me an answer, not even a guess and just gets cross.

Sorry that wasn't as brief as I thought. Tia

moondog Tue 28-May-13 21:08:59

I wouldn't hesitate to use it with a child with such a profile.
It should, if used regularly and appropriately, help you unpick and pinpoint a lot of specific areas with which she has problems.

mumgoingcrazy Tue 28-May-13 21:13:04

It's ordered! Thankyou moondog.

lougle Tue 28-May-13 21:13:35

DD2 is the same at home, mumgoingcrazy - doesn't recognise that she's being rude at all. She's very passive at school, so it doesn't come out there.

Go for it! I'll add you to our list grin

Using Lft:

Lougle - DD2 (5.9)
Starfish71 - DS
Handywoman - DD
vikinglights - DD2 (5)
DisAstrophe - DS
StarlightMcKenzie -DS
ouryve - DS

Considering Lft:

Poltergoose (thank you, lovely)

Encouraging and guiding, but absolutely not advising:

I use it with dd too btw.

It's interesting to see typical development alongside ds', but also, she appears to benefit just as much. She's 4.

lougle Tue 28-May-13 21:21:46

I assessed DD3, Star, also 4 grin.

Amazing to see how much more conventional her thoughts are.

Handywoman Tue 28-May-13 22:15:49

My dd2 is 8.2 yrs, for your roll call. Dd2 did well tonight, just needs to pull out more fully formed sentences to match her other skills.

lougle Tue 28-May-13 22:18:15

Do feel empowered to copy, edit and paste grin

ouryve Tue 28-May-13 23:16:41

It's DS1 I'll be using it with - mine arrived today, but I've been taking advantage of DH being off work trying to get his car sorted out (£400 for a new valve - ouch!) and elbow deep in paint and filler in the boys' room. Plus DS1's been off on one, all day. He'd have refused to participate and never wanted to see it again.

My hunch, looking at the descriptors and examples is that he's mostly level B - there's a few things in there that he can't achieve, but there's level C things he definitely does, if he is sufficiently motivated. Broken down cars were on his mind a lot, today and he asked me, out of the blue "what would happen if a car was stuck in reverse?" I went down the what do you think? what would be the consequence of that route with him and he postulated "What if it was on the motorway? It wouldn't be very good because the car would either have to go in the wrong lane or it would crash."

lougle Wed 29-May-13 12:36:38

How exciting ouryve smile Pick your moment wisely.

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 12:57:19

He's proved himself capable of this sort of abstract thought on a few occasions. It's such a shame that he is unable to put the same sort of thought into real life situations, or a situation that's presented to him, but not of his choosing. Quite often, his own fixed ideas take over. "how do you think DS2 feels when you pull his hair?" is met with "nothing" at best or usually "I don't pull his hair."

lougle Wed 29-May-13 13:00:35

It's a different process, I think.

DD1 can speak quite well spontaneously, on a subject of her choosing. Her ability to answer questions is markedly less competent.

Similarly, DD2 can wax lyrical (in her own unique grammar) about something, but finds it very hard to get the point of a scenario put to her.

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 13:03:52

It's definitely the skill he needs to work on. It should help him socially as well as with school work - his comprehension is holding him back. His technical language is excellent - he's just been very pedantic about the story Ceri just read out on CBeebies. There was a line "Four little field mice, like you and I." and every time she said it, he shouted out "ME!"

PolterGoose Wed 29-May-13 14:39:49

I asked ds the dog/alien question earlier:

Ds: Is this one of those jokes?
Me: No, seriously, what is the difference...
Ds: Err, a dog is a dog and an alien is an alien?
Me: That doesn't really answer the question (repeats questions stressing 'difference')
Ds: A dog lives on this planet and an alien lives on another planet
Me: What if we were on another planet and the dog was on this one, then what would the difference be?
Ds: Well, that can't happen because we've evolved from the same origins as dogs.


GoblinGranny Wed 29-May-13 14:52:05

I asked both of mine the question, separately.
DS 'It depends on which planet you are on, and if you'd ever seen a dog or an alien before. I mean if I met a Martian and I had a dog with me, we'd both be aliens to the Martian. If I'd never seen an alien or a dog before, they'd both be aliens to me.

DD went into a long monologue on the meaning of the word alien being strange, illegal aliens in the states, aliens depending on your perspective of what was different, Dr Xargle's books and ended up by pointing that Welsh meant strange or foreign originally in the same way as alien...etc etc
and wanted me to clarify exactly what I meant by 'difference' and 'alien' before she committed herself to an answer.
I haven't asked OH, his response would probably be along the same lines as DD.
There are rarely simple questions in this house. grin

lougle Wed 29-May-13 15:11:16

This is all too funny grin Perhaps I got the good end of the stick when DD2 said 'Aliens have planets and dogs just have houses.'

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 15:12:15

Polter and Goblin - both brilliant responses :D

Just asked DS2 (13) and he said, 'Is it a joke? Um, dogs walk on four feet and are down to Earth.' Not a brilliant answer and maybe too much time spent teaching him idioms, I think.

GoblinGranny Wed 29-May-13 15:33:31

I think it sounds a fascinating approach, the book is too expensive for me to buy at the moment, but come end of July I'll be investing. I think detailed unpicking is a very effective approach to aiding communication.
I've got a significant EAL/ESL background, and listening and thinking by the teacher should always be the first step IMO.
This sort of reminds me of that.

SingySongy Wed 29-May-13 15:55:47

I asked my two about aliens and dogs...

DS (age 11): Aliens supposedly live on other planets, and dogs live on earth. [narrows eyes] Why are you asking me? Is it one of those stupid aspergers things?

DD (age 5, not supposed to have any language issues, but starting to doubt myself after asking her this question): Aliens have heads wot go like this (random gesture), and dogs have heads wot go like this (almost identical random gesture).


zzzzz Wed 29-May-13 16:08:56

I use it too though "we are on a break" hmm grin

Brilliant book, simple and really helps me modify my language.

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 16:35:45

That sounds like a typical 5 year old response, singy!

Just asked ds1 what the difference between an alien and a dog (6, ASD and ADHD) and he screamed 'i don't know!'. He then started screaming and shouting and asking me what the answer is. Dd walked in and piped up 'a dog is an animal and an alien is a ' and then ds1 shouted 'creature!' over her.

He's still shouting at me... 'tell me all the differences. You haven't told me any more differences. You're stupid, you have to tell me the rest'

I think LfT might be a good idea for him too.

SingySongy Wed 29-May-13 16:57:56

I know Ouryve, she definitely doesn't have the pedantic exactness of her aspie brother does she! wink [understatement]

SingySongy Wed 29-May-13 16:59:48

A stiff drink might be in order before you start though SummerRain!

Singy grin

I'm so used to it at this point it doesn't faze me. As long as he doesn't hit me or throw something at me I count it a positive interaction!

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 17:52:12

Summer grin

Just posed the question to DS1 - will give his reply, later!

Just promised DH I'd email him this thread.

moondog Wed 29-May-13 18:14:33

Semantics (the ability to groups things according to certain characteristics) is a hugely important part of language use. Children start out with a shaky grasp (eg all men are 'daddy' and all four legged creatures are 'dogs') but typically this improves so fine discriminations and groupings can be made. Think of it as a massive number of circles, some of which overlap, like Venn diagrams, where different semantic groups share similar features.

ABA looks at this too and places huge importance on it. They talk about 'stimulus equivalence' and Sidman is one of your main blokes for this. Equally, knowing what something isn't as much as what it is really matter. This is demonstrated beautifully in the rather challenging aspect of Headsprout where the child gets the command

'Click on the word -/ If it does not say ---, click on the arrow'

You will see this demonstrated in PECS too at Phase 3 (picture discrimination) when there is a clear protocol to follow fi the child chooses the wrong picture.

There is lots of stuff out there on this stuff with my beloved Fun Decks

Stuff like 'What goes together' 'What doesn't belong' 'Opposites' and so on.

lougle Wed 29-May-13 18:20:51

Moondog, is there a specific 'part' of semantics that deals with whether the discriminations are prioritised? For instance, it's typical of DD2 to have her 'zoom' so far in that she decided the best thing about a cinema is that you don't have to press buttons.

moondog Wed 29-May-13 18:35:28

That would be unique to every person but very common for a child with quirky language to home in on a feature that was interesting or important to her, irrelevant of whether the world at large finds it useful.

I like her answers. grin
People I know who use LFT in schools say when they hear an adult having an amused chuckle, they generally know LFT is being done.

We all home in on stuff that we think is important and others less so (I remember my grandmother homing in on every seam/dart/buttonhole for example, such was her attention to detail with clothes) but we need to learn why the populating at large makes some choices-even if they are not ours. I was at the cinema yesterday and my dh and I find the habit of eating while watching films mystifying and rather slobby if truth be told, but we accept that this is what a large % of the population are into.

I suppose this is theory of mind territory

lougle Wed 29-May-13 18:43:15

DD2's just said a classic!

"Mum, will you believe me this?:

When I was watching Acrobat Supershow on CITV earlier, I saw three people in one coat but three nack-ed and that scared me. Believe me."

It's so DD2 - in one coat grin and nack-ed for 'necked'. Bless her.

lougle Wed 29-May-13 18:46:35

Ahh, interesting. So the goal isn't necessary to stop the thought processes which are a bit crooked, but for the child to come to an understanding that most people aren't going to be interested in a vast expanse of minute detail and in turn start to focus on the more 'mainstream' concepts which most people would see as important?

Also knowing which situations massive detail may be appropriate in, and which situations a broader answer is indicated.

If I've understood it correctly, that's nice, because it's not saying 'you can't think like this.' It's saying 'most people would be looking at 'x'.

Handywoman Wed 29-May-13 18:51:54

Me and Indie SaLT discussed dd2 and her issues with relevance, and general difficulty describing things. We discussed how semantic and pragmatic areas overlap and link in with theory of mind, ie 'what information is this person expecting' when e.g. Asked 'dd2, can you describe a cat?' ... Dd2's response (aged 7yrs 6mnths) '.... [pause].... Unmmmm .... [pause] it's good for smelling'... Very interesting stuff.

lougle Wed 29-May-13 18:58:55

I see...that's quite a crucial step, isn't it - we do so much of this stuff subconsciously - it's an absolute minefield for our children. Get just one step wrong and the whole thing falls apart.

lougle Wed 29-May-13 19:01:03
Handywoman Wed 29-May-13 19:06:07

Yes, it's that subtle difference between those kids who learn by osmosis what is the expected response or level of info and those who don't do it do well.

All kids get this stuff wrong along the way, but those with SCD get it wrong to a greater degree, more often and for longer.

lougle Wed 29-May-13 19:09:12

Do you know, DD1's school uses a resource called 'Rainbow Road' for OT. LSAs, etc. can use Rainbow Road to assess the child and then there are activities they can do that are clear and simple, to try and help the child. If they are struggling or unsure how to proceed, they can consult the OT who will either point them in the right direction, or give specific guidance.

I really think that's what's missing from SALT services. Parents think there's something amiss with their child. They go to some doctor, who says 'I'll refer you to SALT.' The message is sent "You need professional help*" and instantly, the bar is raised. Parents then sit, helpless, for 18 weeks, except that the Health Authority has made most of the secretaries redundant, so the referral letter doesn't get typed for 3 months. That means that the actual wait for the child is *30 weeks.

Wouldn't it be fabulous to have a resource pack that could be sent to children flagged for SALT, with simple checklists for what to work on, and simple activities which can help whilst waiting for the SALT.

Also, some sort of triage system. Clinics where parents can take their child, quick once over by a SALT to triage into 'clear difficulties which require intervention' 'mild issues which need guidance' and 'absolutely fine'.

Something like that...anyway.

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 19:13:40

Anyhow - chance to sit down properly for a moment:

Me: I've got a question for you, DS1. What's the difference between a dog and an alien?
DS1: Hurrrrr. (shrugging) I don't know.
I repeat the question - DS1 says he doesn't know again and sits back in his chair, looking wary.
DH: It's not a joke.
DS1: Well aliens don't even exist.
DH: How do you know that?
DS1: Aliens are fictional. They're only real in fiction. They don't exist in the real world, though.
Me: People are doing lots of work trying to find out if there is life on other planets.
DS1: Oh.

He then started asking lots of questions about space exploration and telling us lots of facts about other planets in the solar system, which made for quite a pleasant dinner table discussion.

DS2 hummed and wolfed down his chips!

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 19:19:26

And this is very typical of DS1. We don't get monologues from him, but he likes to collect facts and he is very rooted in the concrete. Needless to say he's an athiest!

lougle Wed 29-May-13 19:20:29

Nice discussion smile Poor DS, do you often trick him? grin

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 19:25:04

He's rather fond of jokes and I think he was waiting for the punchline. He's always had quite a sense of the ridiculous.

moondog Wed 29-May-13 19:49:29

Yes Lougle.
I don't think we are telling or forcing people to behave in certain ways but rather, pointing out to them quite explicitly that certain conventional ways of behaving will lead to better interaction and outcomes for them.
This is true of us all. I would like very much to stand up in the cinema and bellow 'Stop bloody guzzling and throwing your sticky popcorn all over my feet. And put your damned phones away!'
Of course, I don't.

I agree. A speedy triage system would send those who don't need help off with some kindly advice. They wouldn't be clogging up waiting lists as they are now. No shows are a huge problem (as in all areas of the NHS) and that must be tackled. This is the disadvantage of a clinic. The child doesn't turn up and an hour of s/lt's time is wasted. In a school (at least one with many kids with language problems) this never happens as you go and work with someone else.

I also think s/lts need to be less precious about sharing resources and rather, encourage people like yourselves to get on with helping themselves. If I was to observe you all carrying out LFT, I would be offering a lot of constructive criticism, like I would in real life on pace, delivery, eye contact, intonation, response to answers and so on, but even if you fumble a bit with it, so what? Noone is going to die.

Better that than sit back and wait for help which might not be what you want when you get it.

I am a great believer in arming myself to need as little input as possible from the helping professions as I believe that often, the bureaucracy, admin and red tape, eat up so much time and energy, the outcome is not worth it.

Ouryve, we had a similar conversation over dinner once he'd calmed down smile it was nice actually. Ds1 is a collector of information too.

If you mention an animal to him you have to be prepared to sit down for 20 minutes looking up pictures on the net and finding out about it. He takes in lots of information but if you ask him a slightly unusual question such as the dog/alien comparison he'll panic if he can't find an immediately obvious answer.

Moondog, although the waiting list is no better here in Ireland I have to say the salt team are phenomenally generous with resources and ds2s salt has spent years fine tuning a system of methods that work for him.

When I mentioned LAMH (Irish makaton) she immediately arranged classes, learned it herself and hunted down loads of resources for him. It turned out to be the trigger that got him talking smile

lougle Wed 29-May-13 20:17:14

DD1 has amazed me about her recollection of animal names. DD3 came home with some little rubber animal toys a week or two ago. Turns out our puppy adores them wink. SO, DD1 came running through and said 'Mum mum mum...he's got a warus!' Then I heard her say 'No, Patch, not stinray'.

She's a bright cookie under that learning disability.

lougle Wed 29-May-13 20:20:47

Hmm..perhaps some sort of research on a triage system and self-help resource pack would be a good research area if I get on that MSc grin

moondog Wed 29-May-13 20:24:24

She sounds great SR!
Often the kids who do well and a lot have more problems.
They often tend to dominate a conversation or an exchange which is a way of avoiding having someone else take at least partial control.
We aren't doing those kids any favours if we just let them bang on and on.
They have to learn to listen-both to the question asked and to the 'debrief' where they are given useful information which will help them answer it next time.

I can think of one individual in particular who LFT has really helped. Child would just go off on a huge monologue. The people who work with him had to be shown that this was not helpful and that this was his way of drowning out any two way interaction.
A few months into LFT he has undergone big changes (for the better) and moreover, asks to do LFT. I think he really understands that it helps him to regulate and challenge his receptive and expressive understanding in functional ways.

She is moondog... Ds2 has been seeing her since he was 12 months old and he adores her. He does things for her that he wont even attempt for me although the presents she buys him as rewards probably help with that!

She has also been a monumental help with ds1 in terms of advice and suggestions for who to hassle for referrals. We'd be lost without her.

The salt who covered her maternity leave was equally as fabulous though and when we bumped into her last year she made me cry with the lovely things she said... Apparently she'd been checking up on ds2s progress with our regular salt all this time and was so positive about his progress, it gave me a huge boost.

I know we've been incredibly lucky to have such a good team behind us smile

starfish71 Wed 29-May-13 21:21:08

This thread is giving me such a lift, did the first task yesterday, break today then going over it tomorrow. The guidelines from moondog and all the info on here are making this something I can do myself for DS, feel positive.

It is also nice to hear other posters talking about the responses from their DC, good to feel part of a team! smile

GoblinGranny Wed 29-May-13 21:21:27

This is truly fascinating, DS and I have been doing this for years and I never realised. All the analysing , and debriefing and learning how to listen and how to have a two way dialogue.
I've got to read that book to understand how our home spun version fits with LfT. I can only say that it has worked very well for us, and that DS is so much happier now he understands more about things fit together.

So the goal isn't necessary to stop the thought processes which are a bit crooked, but for the child to come to an understanding that most people aren't going to be interested in a vast expanse of minute detail and in turn start to focus on the more 'mainstream' concepts which most people would see as important?

Also knowing which situations massive detail may be appropriate in, and which situations a broader answer is indicated.'

'They have to learn to listen-both to the question asked and to the 'debrief' where they are given useful information which will help them answer it next time.'

ouryve Wed 29-May-13 23:05:48

So the goal isn't necessary to stop the thought processes which are a bit crooked, but for the child to come to an understanding that most people aren't going to be interested in a vast expanse of minute detail and in turn start to focus on the more 'mainstream' concepts which most people would see as important?

For a child who does monologue, yes, that seems to be an important focus. DS1's avoidance tactics are more blatant, plus he doesn't read situations very well. On a purely academic level, it was inference that kept him off a level 3 for literacy in year 2. Two years on, those skills are falling further behind his technical language skills. I'm not particularly precious about his NC levels, but this difficulty (plus a hatred of planning) is making him do everything he can to avoid literacy, or anything that looks to him like literacy, at school, which means that he's missing opportunities for direct support. His avoidance is also less than calm, so hopefully, LfT can help to decrease the anxiety he experiences in this respect.

DH is back at work, tomorrow, anyhow, so if he is calm enough, we'll do one of the assessments.

ouryve Thu 30-May-13 11:47:08

OK, I've just managed to do the first assessment with DS1. I did the cinema one, since that's first in the book and he likes going to the cinema. He was quite sullen, throughout and I had to press him to produce more than a don't know to some questions, including the alien and dog one! His answer today was "lots of things". I told him to pick an important one and he said "a dog has a tail but an alien doesn't"

Amazingly, he scored 36, which is just level C, but he scored zero or one on a couple of level B questions (eg, how you buy a cinema ticket "online", and the what happened in this story was met with a resolute "I don't know") so I think I'm going to start him gently at level B, anyhow. I can always shift him up if he's doing consistently well at that level.

Handywoman Thu 30-May-13 12:25:10

Ourvye sounds a bit like dd2, who could not answer 'what happened in the story' (no surprise to me, those kinds of Qs have always been a problem) but who did better sometimes with level C questions than level B (she scored firmly level C in assessment).

ouryve Thu 30-May-13 12:35:58

The "what happened?" question is very open ended. Apart from his mood (which is now at lunch refusal stage) I suspect his problem is one of not being able to relate the entire story to me and we need to work on picking one important thing (which is something that others can then draw out of him in real life situations) rather than completely stalling.

I also have a feeling that his language level might be a more firm C if he reads the text himself, rather than relies on listening to me. That's very much an ADHD thing. It's also something I have to do with DH. If I need to tell him something, he has to read it in an email or on a note, or else it doesn't stick.

moondog Thu 30-May-13 12:43:42

Again, just to say it's great to hear parents coming to an autonomous estimation of their child's ability with language. Obviously not everyone is equipped to do this , but for those parents who can manage, I think this is a great improvement on having to sit passively by for months and months before assessment by professionals in the hard pressed public sector.
For £40 there is an awful lot you can do yourself.
LFT has enough material to keep you involved in purposeful, carefully planned data driven intervention.
Can't get a better value deal than that eh!?

lougle Thu 30-May-13 12:50:04

I've come to see DD2's abilities differ so much situationally. DD2 can have a stab at answering my questions, and the answers are logical, if disordered in structure.

When she speaks spontaneously, her language is really quite unintelligible at times. Or at least, I have to unpick the meaning quite determinedly. For instance, she just said 'Mum, why is it you have your family but not your kids but you don't sleep with your family at night time?' After a lot of unpicking, she was saying 'why don't you sleep at your Mummy and Daddy's house?'.

moondog Thu 30-May-13 12:53:45

LFT has enough material to keep you involved in purposeful, carefully planned data driven intervention.

I meant to add 'for at least a year'

Yes, Lougle, so you have to unpick.
Next step is to model it back to her correctly.
Don't just do so hoping she will get it by osmosis (as seems to be fashion in some circles...)
Get her to repeat it back to you several times.
Point out to her that you know what she was trying to say and you will tell her how to say it more clearly.

lougle Thu 30-May-13 13:02:59

That's helpful. I do that, but not purposefully enough. More in a sort of 'you mean <xyz>?' and she says 'yes' then I say '<xyz>' but then she wanders off...

I will start doing that from today.

Oddly, I do it with DD3 quite instinctively. Probably because her grammatical errors are so minor and 'typical'. Also, she has the attention span and interest to hear my correction and instinctively repeats my correction to me.

She's ABAing me wink - she rewards me for my effort in correcting her, so I'm inclined to continue.

vikinglights Thu 30-May-13 13:04:15

you know lougle that actually sounds simillar to the sort of thing DD2 might come out with, although DD2 would probably be slightly simpler to interpret but with some extra grammatical irregularities thrown in for good measure.

As an example of the grammar mangling from earlier this week " I have swimmen in the lake when we did go to X" meaning "I swam in the lake when we went to X"

When I'm in a regularly using phase I find myself asking similar questions particularly on car journeys.

My favourite ATM is *DS, what is the difference between a cup and a plate'

DS 'Well a plate is an un-curled cup'!

lougle Thu 30-May-13 13:31:47

That is beautiful, Star! It's so true. I've never seen it like that, but it can't be denied that he's right smile

zzzzz Thu 30-May-13 13:33:50

"When I'm in a regularly using phase I find myself asking similar questions particularly on car journeys."

grin exactly!

vikinglights Thu 30-May-13 13:43:49

'Osmosis' certainly isn't working for DD2 grin. I have found that just modelling the correct sentence structure for her has zero effect, and it usually takes a couple of attempts for her to actually repeat back the correct structure.

Interestingly, whilst her use her first language has gone through some pretty bizzare phases it is now without these oddities without any dedicated input, just the 'osmosis' effect. So I guess its a question of degrees. Most kids do 'get it' without structured input, and if DD2 was a monoglot then I don't think the oddities would have been very apparent, but with a second language with limited exposure to 'osmosis' they are v. obvious.

DD1 (7) and DS (3) have had standard language development for both languages, so its not just a bilingual thing

WibbleBoy Thu 30-May-13 14:03:47

Further to OurYve's comments earlier. DS1 kept up the conversation for quite a while, he confirmed that the Earth was 93m miles from the sun.

Later we got a little bit silly after I pointed out that his grandmother was quite small, he told me I was as tall as the distance to the moon, and should be careful in case I bumped by head. Oh, and apparently my head is the size of the sun, and my brain the size of the moon. There's some crazy scaling going on there, but at least I'm one step closer to becoming Marvin the Paranoid Android.

ouryve Thu 30-May-13 14:05:53

Wibbleboy is Mr Yve, btw grin

PolterGoose Thu 30-May-13 14:29:10


grin Love it!

moondog Thu 30-May-13 22:39:42

'She's ABAing me wink - she rewards me for my effort in correcting her, so I'm inclined to continue.'

Lougle, this is so important.
Our behaviour is shaped and reinforced by those around us, even, if not especially by those we are trying to help.

It happens all the time and once you are aware of it, you can tackle it.
The kid with challenging behaviour who staff avoid because he hits them.
He gets less attentions so hits even more.

The cuddly chatty little child who is fun to play with.
Everyone rushes over to pick up and cuddle.

Think of the people in your life.
Who do you instinctively want to spend time with?
Who do you avoid?

Their behaviour shapes yours.
It is an intricate and non stop flow.

Love the uncurled cup Star! smile

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 22:21:07

Bumping to see how we're all doing?

DD2 is improving a little and actually recognised that when we crossed the road today, we were using the same crossing that Philip and Lisa used - happy days! grin

Handywoman Mon 10-Jun-13 22:51:47

Ah that is lovely. Slight hiatus here (dd2 has had an ear op, we are all out our routine) we will get back into it in the next couple of days.x

claw2 Mon 10-Jun-13 22:56:13

A few people have mentioned this to me, where do I get my hands on a copy? having googled, all I can find is an expensive book?

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 23:04:56

The expensive book is Language for Thinking - it contains all the assessments and scenarios, etc. Cheapest online is Amazon for £37.99 as far as I can see.

claw2 Mon 10-Jun-13 23:08:29

Thanks Lougle, I will have to order a copy.

I watched the link you provided earlier in the thread too of the little girl and her mum. Do they give advice in the book too as how to extend language once you have done the assessments?

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 23:19:24

Yes, they do. They give examples for each area of difficulty, so for example, if a child rambles on and on, they suggest saying 'you've given me lots of ideas there, tell me about the one you think is most important...'

claw2 Mon 10-Jun-13 23:22:38

Thanks Lougle, that tends to be an area of difficult for ds.

Will definitely order a copy, sounds really helpful

moondog Mon 10-Jun-13 23:25:29

Was wondering today how you are all getting on!
Great to hear the updates. smile

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 23:29:03

We have a convert from the Primary Education section of MN too - ordering a copy tomorrow...we'll conquer the world! wink

We're doing well, Moondog smile I definitely think functional language is the focus for DD2. It's ironic that she can absorb what homophones, adverbs and split digraphs are, yet couldn't describe what 'Green Club' was to DH, other than to say that "it's where you plant things that the person who helps you tells you what to do and where to put them." and who called a nappy 'plain' when she meant 'clean' hmm

starfish71 Mon 10-Jun-13 23:29:48

Just marking so I remember to come and give an update!

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 23:30:28

Great grin

claw2 Mon 10-Jun-13 23:33:27

Could I try the transcript without the picture or is having the picture in front of them a must?

moondog Mon 10-Jun-13 23:36:55

That's great Lougle.
I think a lot of kids with language issues focus on less apparent stuff. My dd has fantastic spelling (in two languages) and amazing phonological awareness-she can imitate an accent perfectly.

Yet other much more basic stuff is hard for her.
Claw, you can use LFT in a variety of different ways, which is one of the many reasons it is so great.
If you message me I can send you some simple instructions as the only problem with the manual is that instructions for use a little vague. Other MNers have used my instructions and I think they are getting on ok with it.

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 23:39:50

It's all so fascinating.

Claw, yes, module 3 is text only. LfT does suggest doing it in order (so picture and text first, then picture and child reading text themselves, then text alone) but it is not set in stone.

lougle Mon 10-Jun-13 23:40:41

Your DD sounds quite amazing, moondog smile I'd like to know two languages!

claw2 Mon 10-Jun-13 23:41:17

Thanks Moon, I don't have the book yet, but would be grateful of the instructions.

Lougle provided the link and the transcript of the little girl and her mum earlier in the thread, I was wondering if I could use the transcript just to see how ds gets on with it, while waiting for the book.

vikinglights Tue 11-Jun-13 06:45:07

I do think LfT is great, so let it conquer the world grin

I have a question about bilingual kinds if anyone has any ideas. English is not our community language and it is by far the waeker of DD2's languages (unlike my other 2 who are fairly even).

DD2's main problem seems to be totally mangled grammar and sentence structure. Do you think I'm right to 'worry less' about grammar/sentence structures that she has transposed from her first language than constructions which are completely random?

Hi all,

Finally uncovered my copy and we'll be back to 'home school' next week after a month off.

So might add my own vid?!

lougle Tue 11-Jun-13 09:18:02

Hoooray! Please do, Star. grin

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 11:15:45

I did the transcript about Ahmed and the puppet show with ds, I think we definitely need this book.

Tell me what happened in the story - 'Arnold or someone went to a puppet show'

Where are Ahmed and his mum - 'in a house'

Who went with his mum - 'Arnold'

did they like the puppet show - 'yes, they laughed at it'

why - 'doesn't make sense, the game is called why, you click on it and it takes you to the menu'

Those were just some his answers, he answered 'I don't know' to some of the questions. then got stressed because he didn't know at the end.

I think you need to do a whole bunch of 'getting it wrong' practice, with it being no big deal/funny/rewarded.

I have to revisit that with ds quite regularly.

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 11:59:14

YES Star, how do I go about that?

I told ds that its ok and 'I don't know' is a perfectly acceptable answer, he was getting quite stressed at the end.

Well you can model. DS can chose a card from two and if you get one right you get a sticker/tick whatever. If you don't you get nothing and you can ask DS what you can do?

If he doesn't know suggest you shrug and say 'oh we'll.

Then reverse the game. He has to guess the one you chose. If he does 'good getting it wrong I.e shrugging' he gets loads of praise and a small sweet.

Once mastered you can generalise to other situations where you practise 'getting it wrong' first and then introduce something he will get wrong, with a reward when he does it well.

Then you can explore other reactions such as 'oh no!, I'll get you next time ha ha ha' or 'you're just lucky' etc. Or even 'well done mummy, you got me there!.

And you stop the sweet thing just as soon as you feel praise is enough.

I mean from 2 cards DS chides one to hold and you guess what it is.

It is helpful if you can recognise from the back so you can control your responses.

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 12:49:14

Thanks Star, he has lots of cards, pokermon and moshi's etc, he would probably be quite interested in that 'game'.

Although his 'getting it wrong' does only seem to apply to questions or not being able to answer. He has no problem for example losing at a game or spilling a drink. although he used to, I suppose I have modelled how to react to those, spill a drink 'never mind, its an accident' you get a cloth, clean it up etc.

Im sure the 'getting it wrong' is school related. One of his IEP targets when all this 'getting it wrong started' was for ds 'to be able to own up when he was in the wrong' how they achieved this was by an adult telling ds he was wrong hmm Im sure this is where it stems from.


One of the great things about Moondog's 'way' of doing LFT involves coaching at the end and then trying again the next day with hopefully an improvement.

It's excellent for confidence-building but also showing quite quickly the benefit of 'practising' a skill. That you start not being so great but you get better.

Getting better is the important thing NOT being great from the start.

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 13:23:59

Bit skint at the mo, but will order the book as soon as I have the funds, im quite excited about it smile

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 14:01:37

Just ordered, cant wait!

lougle Tue 11-Jun-13 14:15:37

DD1's favourite phrase is 'accidents happen'. She always says it in a sing-song voice with her hands thrown up in the air. It took practice!

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 15:31:07

Ive just realised just how much I do modify my own language for ds too, without even realising I do it, which cant really be helpful for him, when he encounters the rest of population who don't. I also use my hands and gestures quite a bit too.

moondog Tue 11-Jun-13 16:59:06

It's very useful to teach kids a set response if they don't know.
Saves them flailing and giving up/guessing/getting angry/annoyed.
A very effective technique we use in Precision Teaching is to teach the kids to say 'pass' when they don't know something. We move on and then come back to the 'pass' problem later.

It's great to hear them say it confidently and calmly.#

Viking, English is not the first language of many of the kids I work with either. Yes, I worry much less about syntactic transpositions from other language than novel ones. For instance, lots of languages use an adjective after the noun so wouldn't worry about this. Obviously you need to be totally familiar with the other language (as I am).

We use LFT in another language though and this works just as well if you have someone who is confident about translating as they go along. I have been thinking of approaching LFT for a formal translation (when I get the time). It would work well in other languages too I am sure. I speak French and could easily envisage administering in French.

moondog Tue 11-Jun-13 17:01:11

'I've just realised just how much I do modify my own language for ds too, without even realising I do it, which cant really be helpful for him, when he encounters the rest of population who don't. '

Exactly Claw and although this is fine, we need to realise that this sort of scaffolding isn't always going to be there. When I do LFT with assistants, it gets them to see very quickly how much they interpret for the children they work with. Again, that's fine but in therapy we need to address areas of need and attack them according to protocol I set out. It works.

vikinglights Tue 11-Jun-13 17:32:47

Thanks moondog. It is good to have some reasurance that i am not completely off base with this. I am fluent in the community lang. So i am aware when dd is using 'appropriate in first language' oddities. I have tried her in the community language and she scores much better, although there was a time when that language was slightly 'odd' aswell. Seems appropriate now though, do i'm hoping some structured work with lft will improve her english.

Again many thanks for sharing your wisdom

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 17:37:06

Thanks Moondog, can I ask how do you get kids to understand words such as 'later'.

Ds has no concept of this and its causing him problems. Later is quite a common word used by adults when speaking to children, but when said to ds, it transpires in his mind to people being horrible to him and telling lies! For example ds "can I do whatever' adult 'later', because he has no concept of what this means, they are telling lies and being horrible!

Its not a word I would use, as I know ds has no understanding of it, we have always used 'after xxxxx' or how many sleeps instead of 'later'.

Aw Claw, Things like that are pretty fundamental and even generic-standard provision-wise for children with social communication difficulties.

sad How badly your ds has been failed!

When did he last see a SALT for therapy? Could you get the cerebra grant to cover a bit, even if it is a SALT to come and listen to your concerns and issues and give YOU some strategies, rather than work with him directly if he isn't up to it?

I would probably do lots of time-sequencing work, planning, Moondog calendar, even visual timetables and pointing to the 'later' activity, making sure it is one that isn't so important to him so he doesn't get anxious he might not get it. And then revisit and remind him.

And lots of pairing of the word. So he asks for an ice-cream I can say 'you can have one later, after dinner' etc.

That kind of thing!?

moondog Tue 11-Jun-13 18:10:26

You need to be more precise.
'Later' is an elastic term and one kids can't trust adults to use consistently.
Two key issues, understanding time in the short term and in the long term.
Short term, I recommend a Timetimer or Joseph Joseph pie timer.
Long term, the moondog calendar as sStar says.
I have posted at length on these in these section so do a search under my name and it should all be there.

These are the first things I make sure a child has. How will you understand language relating to time if you can't grasp time?
It's essential.

Daisyfield Tue 11-Jun-13 18:12:17

I've just ordered the language for thinking book that Lougle recommended last night. I hope it's ok to join in? I was hoping the instructions were in the book but having read the posts I'm thinking that I need to ask moondog for them?

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 18:23:19

Star he has never seen a SALT for therapy.

Last time he was assessed by NHS SALT in 2010, his sems and voc was 0.04 centile. She left some DIY work sheets, had no contact with school for over a year. There is absolutely no record of school having done any of the worksheets with him or any SALT programme.

Private SALT assessment in March 2011, his sems and vocab on 1st centile

When I complained NHS SALT re-assessed 7 months later and his sems and vocab were now on 75th centile! He was discharged from SALT service. (another story of saying they provided a service, although they cannot provide any evidence of this)

He hasn't had a SALT assessment since.

lougle Tue 11-Jun-13 18:36:14

Hi Daisyfield, glad you found us!

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 18:37:55

Thanks Star and Moondog, ds will not use timers or visual timetables, these are for 'babies'. He has no concept of time, past or present, doesn't know days of week etc. We still have to work in counting sleeps.

However I will not derail this thread any further, I will go and do a search of Moondogs previous threads, thanks guys.

I think you need some expert advice for some laid back games and therapy that you can implement yourself over the holiday tbh.

I suspect (though not a SALT, as you know) that many strategies that he might need can be very easily implemented and probably more effectively, by a parent anyway, but he'll probably need someone qualified to either assess him, or ask you questions to get an idea where to start.

If he doesn't mind, video yourself lots doing LFT with him. That could be very useful for you later as you learn more about his language difficulties (which it will highlight as well as support), and it is good evidence for other possible battles in the future.

Then YOU use a time-timer.

Use it lots. okay ds, - 15minutes tidying the kitchen for mummy and then I can have a nice break with ds where we will share a hot-chocolate and a biscuit. I can't wait until 15mins, better get started.

If you are busy on the computer and he wants you/something from you, you can ask him how long you are allowed to have and ask him to set the timer for you so that you don't overrun or get distracted etc.

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 18:59:34

Thanks Star, at the moment im a bit in limbo as you know. Im hoping new school, onsite SALT, will equal some sort of support or at least some identification of difficulties. Until then, im just going to go about as much self help as I can, with recorded results as you say. There seem like just so many areas I need to cover and not just SAL, I think the LFT will do for now.

Fair enough. There always feels like there is loads to do and so little time. That's because there is. So prioritising is really important.

I truly hope this school has the expertise to see your ds for who he is and is problems for what they are and at last give you some signposting.

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 19:12:00

I typed that and posted before I had seen your timer comments, that shouldn't be too much of a problem to fit in, especially the bit about him using the timer on me, if he can use it on me, it obviously isn't just for babies! I think he would love that!

claw2 Tue 11-Jun-13 19:30:05

Well trying to use pokemon cards has backfired on me! they simply cannot be used to play anything other than playing pokemon, I am now involved in a very lengthy, game of pokemon!

moondog Tue 11-Jun-13 20:04:53

Daisy, I'm happy to send if you message me. smile

Handywoman Tue 11-Jun-13 22:06:00

dd2 is loving LFT (since I started recording her responses surrepticiously) although I think we are having too much of a dialogue with it. But it is fun smile

today's highlights: why is Billy's mum sitting under the umbrella: 'in case someone throws something splodgy' hmm

In all seriousness, though, we got into quite an indepth discussion about the difference between a park and a beach (deceptively tricky!). dd2 and I both came up with an answer at the same time. She said: "I read your mind..... but I didn't really read your mind, it is just a phrase"!!!!

WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP <scuttles off to e-mail private SLT>

lougle Tue 11-Jun-13 22:20:20

That reminds me (as you know it would!) of when DD2 came out of school one day and said ''I ran around at playtime and my hands got frrrreeezing and turned to blocks of ice.' Then she turned to me and said 'Mum, my hands didn't really turn to blocks of ice, that was a joke, they were just cold.'

vikinglights Wed 12-Jun-13 04:52:53

Ooh handywoman, we did billy at rhe beach yesterday too and had a bit of a breakthrough I think.

When asked what would billys mum say if he ran into the water without telling her, I got 'billy, billy, where are you?' As an answer, so she understands that if billy didn't ask his mum wouldn't necessarily know where he is smile

she also said where ARE you not where IS you so I'm a v. Happy mummy smile

Handywoman Wed 12-Jun-13 07:20:06

Ah that is brilliant smile

Handywoman Wed 12-Jun-13 21:35:06

dd2 will not, not, not, repeat exercises. She will only do new ones. I am going to have to think about how to structure these.

lougle Thu 13-Jun-13 22:31:09

We did the icecream one today and she actually did quite well. Her answers were very limited in scope, but logical and fairly clear.

She didn't seem to grasp the concept of the vendor running out of strawberry icecream. She said 'she could wait until they make some more.'

Handywoman Thu 13-Jun-13 23:09:02

dd2 discounted strawberry info and went directly for 'can I have an ice cream?'

re the running out dd2 also said. 'wait til they get some more'

moondog Thu 13-Jun-13 23:43:28

Ah Lougle, as a behaviourist, I can't accept 'quite well' because it doesn't mean anything. smile
It's the kind of thing SEN types say in meetings to fob people off.

What was her score? How many times has she done it? Has score gone up or down?

Handy, if she won't repeat, you won't have any way of knowing whether she has taken in and retained any of your therapeutic input. Would suggest you think of a way to ensure she does repeat.

lougle Fri 14-Jun-13 07:31:12

blush scored 12/18, first time of doing it. Up on first score of the first scenario by one, but down on the repeated first scenario. I think my ' quite well' was Mitte towards the way she answered the questions. She was much calmer and more confident with answering, despite the actual score not being much higher.

lougle Fri 14-Jun-13 07:31:51

mitte?? more

claw2 Fri 14-Jun-13 13:25:10

Yay I my book arrived today, cant wait to get started.

claw2 Fri 14-Jun-13 13:25:48

Not sure where the 'I' came from!

Handywoman Fri 14-Jun-13 18:19:16

Thanks, moondog, I realise repeating scenarios is pretty Just a question of how hmm

Handywoman Fri 14-Jun-13 18:34:19

Pretty crucial even(!)

moondog Fri 14-Jun-13 19:25:44

I'll let you off in that case Lougle as harder to quantify that. wink
If it was a teacher though, I would urge them to think of how that could be measured-fewer episodes of turning away or attempts to derail the discussion maybe. Helpful to think like this as it stops one from sliding off into murky area of value judgements and stick instead to the facts.

Hope you work something out Handy and that you get on ok Claw.

lougle Fri 14-Jun-13 19:54:01

Ooh yes, I see your point. I think I could do that. We had fewer silly movements and eye rolls and dramatic sighs, so they could definitely be counted if I was videoing each session consistently.

vikinglights Fri 14-Jun-13 20:06:28

DD2 wasn't hugely enthused tonight but she was engaged, there was NO falling back on the sofa or any other such variations, which is a huge improvement. She also had a go at answering all the questions I asked grin

She also thought she had lost the LfT book and her response was 'oh no, its the best way for me to learn english, what can I do now' which was heartwarming (so long as we ignore her response when I suggested the solution might be looking for the book wink)

Handywoman Fri 14-Jun-13 20:51:06

dd2 has been off sch this week (following her ear op). And reminded me of how her language level dips when she is not, erm, using it quite as much. Some e.g.s:
(on the slide): mum, can you help me for some reason?
(telling me her next teacher is the current Y4 teacher) the one who teaches year four, at now
(about stones found in the park): I found them automatically
Nobody can explain why this happens.

lougle Fri 14-Jun-13 21:57:32

Hope she's recovering, handy.

DD2 had to tell her teacher that she had made a mistake in choosing her peers for next year (she did this last year too - beforehand she knows who she wants to write down, but at the last minute she writes down the nearest people she can see).

She walked into the classroom and said 'I putted the wrong names down!' Her teacher was doing the 'desperately trying to catch up with the conversation' thing and I had to step in and explain.

It's so DD2. She's thinking about something, so everyone else must know what we're talking about...

vikinglights Sat 15-Jun-13 06:41:39

hope your dd is feeling better Handywoman.

I've sometimes felt that if DD2 spends too much time 'thinking in her own head' as opposed to actually having a diologue where communication is required her language use gets more random. Almost like she knows what she's talking about so there no need to use language in a way that anybody else can follow, and then these random constructions sort of 'stick' so we get apparent language regressions when she hasn't been engaged in enough dialogue.

It feels a bit like she needs constant reinforcment/feedback to promote the 'standard' language patterns above her own constructions.....

Mind you that is very DD, she does have a tendency to opperate along the lines of 'that may be how you do it but I'm going to do it MY way' leading to many errm interesting moments, like the discussion about why is was important not to cycle in the road with your eyes closed........

Handywoman Sat 15-Jun-13 07:58:44

Oh vikinglights you don't know how brilliant it is to hear the same thing happens elsewhere!!!!

So relate to those 'interesting moments' too. As you say it's not a true regression. It is just the need to have language in use to keep it structurally in check.

In true dd2 style she managed this response (we managed to re-visit the spilled paint scenario. After the oft-repeated question 'how can you tell he feels X?' dd2 replied 'because of the expression on his face'. Erm.... top marks anyone? She sure can surprise, that dd2!


She is recovering well thanks peeps although has been pretty prone to anxiety and going back to school will be interesting

vikinglights Sun 16-Jun-13 07:32:25

glad she's recovering well

hope the return to school is as smooth as possible

'DS, what colour did you make your wings for the school play?'

(I need to get a marching t-shirt)

DS: 'Lots of colours. One is red, one is blue, one is purple, one is red, one is silver......'

Me: 'How many wings do you have?'

DS: '2' (concrete answer to concrete question).

Me: 'Oh, so what colour are they?'

DS: 'One is green, one is gold, one is pink, one is......

Me: 'You've got 2 wings!?'

DS 'I already TOLD you!'

Eventually stupid me worked out that he is saying what COLOURS he had painted his 2 wings. One COLOUR is pink, another colour is green.........

lougle Sat 22-Jun-13 17:34:41

Star grin

I am in a quandary. There are times when DD2's answer is very unconventional and misses what I think is the intention of the question, but her answer is logically correct. What score does that get?

2 examples:

Q: How did Ahmed knock over the paint?
A: "I don't know, because you didn't tell me."

Logically, I can't fault this. It doesn't actually tell you in the scenario. I'm sure the intention is for the child to say something plausible ie. "He might have been looking around instead of concentrating and knocked it with his arm.", but she is actually right. So, does it get a 3 or a 0?

Q: "What other things could you do in an art lesson?"
A: "You can accidentally knock the water over."

Well, yes you could. The question is clearly intended to encourage the child to talk about the types of 'art' they could use in a lesson (paint, clay, etc.) but you absolutely could knock over a pot of water.

That's the trouble. She is logical. It is just a bit...vulcan grin

Q: "What could be in the box?"
A: "A rosette."

Wellll...yes. In fact it could be anything that is small enough to fit in the box. It's unlikely to be a rosette, but I can't say it's not.

Bless her.

I would mark it down tbh, because whilst she is correct logically, she isn't socially.

Logic is fine but only if the social circumstances say that it is iyswim.

You're marking her understanding of what you are asking her, and that includes the unsaid stuff just as much as the said stuff.

At least, that is how I judge it because I think the unsaid stuff needs to be learnt too, so it needs to be marked as a gap to fill.

btw, DS is currently playing minecraft. Now I haven't got a clue what the game is about but I know you are supposed to dig for minerals and avoid being eaten by zombies.

But what is ds doing?

He's putting signs up by all the trees, labelling them, like they do in Kew gardens apparently.

I never knew he was paying attention to anything in Kew gardens except the promised ice cream at the end. confused

lougle Sat 22-Jun-13 17:58:03

He's a smart cookie!

I know I've said it before, but I just can't understand how DD2 can grasp the difference between a homophone and a homonym, identify them in everyday speech as she talks, yet can't describe something as simple as gardening club.

moondog Sat 22-Jun-13 19:08:04

Nice to hear how everyone is getting on.
Lougle, I'd go over more socially acceptable responses as part of the 'debrief'. You acknowledge her logic and plausibility but point out that most people would think about x,y or z.
I'd be marking answers like that as a 2. Ultimately the 'mark' is less important than you making a written or mental note of what she says that is quirky, helping her to render it less quirky and then reassessing to see if she has taken that on board.

Homophones/homonyms are concrete things.
Higher level language issues aren't.
That's the difference.

lougle Sat 22-Jun-13 19:56:38

Thanks moondog. So I need to be more explicit with her, instead of thinking 'what a bizarre thing to say.' That is very helpful.

I do that, a bit. I need to be more systematic and make sure that I am encouraging her, not crushing her.

On another note, people, DH is starting to reflect on his own behaviour! DD2 didn't respond at all when I told her that she had done x and it was upsetting. When I challenged her on it she said 'ok'. I said 'DD2, we normally say sorry.' She said 'sorry' and carried on doing what she was doing. DH was frustrated, then the penny dropped. Finally, he has seen why after 11 years of marriage I still get frustrated when he just gives a perfunctory 'sorry' if he hurts me grin

He has also realised that he relies on concrete definitions as DD2 does. When he was 21, he spent a good couple of weeks on crutches that a friend gave him. DD1 broke her ankle last week and I said 'she said she heard a crack.' We were talking about his injury and he suddenly said 'that's why I didn't go to hospital. I didn't hear a crack...' I said 'What??' and he told me that he had been told that if you break your ankle you hear a crack. He hadn't heard one, so he didn't go to hospital, even though he still couldn't weight bear after 2 weeks!

Language for Thinking is helping him to reflect on his areas of difficulty as I discuss DD2 with him, probably because they are so similar. I have tried so many times to discuss him with him and got nowhere. It's like DD2 is his 'video evidence'.


moondog Sat 22-Jun-13 20:05:28

That's interesting.
Yes, you need to be explicit but of course you can do that without crushing someone.
You need to teach, otherwise how will the person you are trying to help know for next time?

That's why I loathe the touchy feely throw it at the wall and see what sticks and God forbid we get explicit and actually try to measure and define' attitude endemic in education and the 'therapies' <shudder>.
It doesn't help anyone.

I don't share the scores with ds, so that I can remain encouraging. He knows the next day that he did better as he finds the answers both easier and my praise bigger iyswim.

I never say he has got anything wrong, it's just that the next time he did 'better' iyswim.

I will say. That's a great answer, but how about ......, would be even better because............ Often there is a joke to be had in considering the other view points and ds can find it silly, and I can agree though still making it clear that the silly answer is the one I'd like to see the next day iyswim.

moondog Sat 22-Jun-13 20:10:04

Gosh, of the scores of kids I have used, and seen use LFT, most love to see the scores! That's a good thing. If they are interested in how they got on, we have struck gold.

Using a colour coded system works so well. We can all rejoice and say 'Wow Luke! Look at all those greens! You are thinking so hard! Well done!'

moondog Sat 22-Jun-13 20:12:03

Pupil feedback is central to the notion of behaviourally based practice.
That's why a standard celebration chart is so fantastic.
Most kids get that a line going upwards means they are doing great.
If the teacher/therapist adjusts her practice according to the trajectory, then by God, it will go up.

'If the child hasn't learnt, the teacher hasn't taught'
Amen to that.

DS gets feedback about his performance and it is differentiated but atm an issue with numbers has popped up (not sure where from) and to talk in numbers makes the task aversive as ds refuses to try anything he can't get 100% for.

We're working on that though, but I'm not sure where it has come from, and whether it has come from school (I suspect it has something to do with his DF rating him overly generously with subjective ratings for his piano practising . He enjoyed it for Headsprout so I'm sure we can do that, but I think with LFT he doesn't understand the scoring system and it makes him anxious.

However I share the colours and he enjoys being good enough to do a 'new one'.

ouryve Tue 30-Jul-13 14:25:30

I don't believe it.

Have finally got around to starting this with DS1, after assessing on to be on the cusp of level C at half term. I had intended to start him on B for a week, but got distracted by a combination of him digging his heels in and saying that reading was boring and DS2 having free reign of the kitchen. Apart from having to remind him that the last question had asked for two things to do for a forgotten lunch, he gave very detailed and absolutely perfect responses.

vikinglights Tue 30-Jul-13 20:39:17


Handywoman Tue 30-Jul-13 21:41:31


Must admit having a break from LFT as undergoing marital split, annual leave and working out how to get inflexible dd2 to repeat exercises. But more the annual leave and marital stuff!

Having a break is important (our SALT is always saying this) right?!!!!

ouryve Tue 30-Jul-13 23:25:49

I'm not intending to repeat unless he really bombs out on one, Handywoman, and if it's clear that it's the subject matter that prompted him to disengage with a scenario, I'll leave it alone. If your DD is anything like DS1, my hunch would be to do a few and then go back on the premise of seeing if she can beat her high score, after a week.

And a break can be positive and provide time to assimilate - especially when other things are pressing on your minds flowers

My target for DS1, since at half term he would have struggled a bit with the level C questions is to see if he can consistently get full marks (which would involve him listening to all the questions carefully so he either needed no prompts or realised that he'd missed something and asked for clarification). I'll then assess him for module 3 and work out where to go from there.

PolterGoose Wed 31-Jul-13 08:04:17

Well done mini-ouryve grin

Handywoman hope you're ok flowers

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