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What would you do? MMR and autism question

(63 Posts)
CeilingThomas Fri 05-Apr-13 20:54:10

Hi, I've being doing a lot of research into this but have ended up even more unsure what to do, so thought I'd ask for your thoughts.

My DS is 13months and I've just received the slip to get his MMR jab. I am generally pro vaccinations and my son has had all his to date. But DS's cousins (all 3) on my DH's side are on the autistic spectrum.

My concerns are:
Does the fact that all 3 are on the spectrum suggest a hereditary link?
If there is a hereditary link is it more likely that the MMR could trigger autism in my son if he is already predisposed to it?

I know medical science has concluded there is no link between the MMR and autism but I just don't think I'm convinced, there seems to be so much anecdotal evidence and a large number of compensation claims in the US that suggest vaccination does cause changes in some children.

In my position would you get the jab? Would waiting a year help?

Thanks!

You have to make your own mind up, sorry.

Hereditary link is a bit misleading. If you look at the the 3 the more important thing is do you see the broader autism phenotype (i.e. autism features) in the extended family. If so, then yes it may well be that the autism traits have been inherited.

However, I do know other families where more than one child has autism, but there are no signs of BAP in the family, but a lot of immune issues. So it may be that a susceptibility has been inherited.

Not all medical science has concluded there is no link between the MMR and autism and indeed I know various paediatricians (and other doctors) who think in some (not many, but that's not the same as none) cases the MMR has contributed. Unfortunately the whole thing has become very political.

If you ask people what they would do you will not get a consensus. In your shoes I would be happier vaccinating with MMR if I could see the broader autism phenotype in the family, than if I could see lots of immune type disorders. But that's just me.

Ultimately (and this was probably the best advice I was ever given) you have to do what you can live with.

CeilingThomas Fri 05-Apr-13 21:48:12

Thanks saintly, your post is very useful, I'll look further into the phenotype/immune disorders you raised. (I did genetics at uni but have forgotten most of it it was so long ago!).

I think you're right I have to decide what I can live with. Guess that's what I'm struggling with. Usually I would gather information to inform such a decision but the info isn't helping this time. This decision has a huge dollop of emotion involved too which is muddying things right now.

It's really hard because the information you need isn't really out there. Which is ultimately why you have to go with what you can live with.

I haven't vaccinated ds2 or ds3 because our family history is very much one of weird immune reactions and ds1 regressed after one such incident. But in the interests of balance I feel I should also point out that there is the largest measles outbreak for years at the moment (although I am seeking more figures on that as the last lot I saw appeared to be saying that 25% of those catching measles had been vaccinated- which seems remarkably high to me, they weren't very clear figures though).

sneezecakesmum Fri 05-Apr-13 21:57:16

If you are really worried the single measles and rubella vaccines are available, but no mumps as far as I know, but mumps not a major issue with very young children. We did this and then MMR at 4 1/2. Just a bit neurotic I guess! grin

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 00:10:03

There is a definite connection between vaccines triggering autism in kids who are genetically or hereditarily predisposed to autism. If you have 3 cousins on hubby,s side on spectrum, it means your son may be genetically. Susceptible. If I were you, I would NEVER take the chance, would never vaccinate.

silverfrog Sat 06-Apr-13 09:17:07

Saintly, could you point me in the direction of where to find (or even where to look for!) figures on the vaccination status of those affected by the recent epidemic?

It is the biggest unanswered (or unstated) question, to my mind. I am in a similar position to you, with my 2 youngest unvaccinated, and ds is only 8 months old...

Decent information to make a balanced choice is so hard to come by - doing what y

silverfrog Sat 06-Apr-13 09:17:39

you can live with really is the only way to go.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 06-Apr-13 09:24:24

'There is a definite connection between vaccines triggering autism in kids who are genetically or hereditarily predisposed to autism'

References please?
You have to make up your own mind, but having seen the lifelong damage and deaths caused by measles and rubella, I had both of mine vaccinated.
DS got his dx of AS at 9, I've always thought that the links are strongly hereditary and nothing to do with the MMR. That's only an opinion of mine though.

whenwilligetsomesleep Sat 06-Apr-13 09:27:37

I did vaccinate my son as i felt the risk of serious complications from measles was too great. It's a very difficult and personal choice.

CwtchesAndCuddles Sat 06-Apr-13 09:27:40

My ds has autism and severe learing difficulties, he was showing signs well before MMR. He has been vaccinated fully. I live within the Health Authority Bro Morganwg, this is where the big measles outbreak is at the momment - so many people who didn't vaccinate are very worried. I know of one family where all three children had it together, they were diagnosed early and had no complications

You have to decide what you think is best for your child but complications of measles can be life changing too.

whenwilligetsomesleep Sat 06-Apr-13 09:30:46

I should also have said my son showed signs of autism before MMR jab. I do not believe there was any link in his case

Agh it was in a report silver & said '75% of those catching measles in the current outbreak have no history of vaccination' & that was it! A broadsheet or BBC - that sort of reference. I haven't been A&E to find any other sort of figures.

Did you have measles? If so I wouldn't worry too much about your 8 month old as they should have passive immunity still. If you vaccinated at 8 months you would have to again post 13 months to protect during the toddler years.

Yes measles can be nasty, my mum is deaf in one ear from measles, but ds2 and ds3 are still unvaccinated (a decision my mother agrees with). Unfortunately it's just not a straight forward decision.

ABLE not A&E!!!

LalyRawr Sat 06-Apr-13 10:33:58

I made a similar thread for similar reasons a few weeks back. My brother had Fragile X Syndrome and I know I have the 'faulty' X chromosome so was worried about having passed it on to my daughter then having the MMR.

In the end, I figured that the MMR-Autism link was from (I believe) one piece of now discredited research. The MMR is probably the most tested vaccine, if there was a link, surely more evidence would have come to light?

In saying that, I do know people who swear blind the MMR 'gave' their child Autism (poor choice of words I know, but hopefully you get what I mean). Conversely, I know of parents who didn't give their child MMR and yet they still received an Autistic diagnosis.

Fact remains, it's your choice and yours alone. Whatever you decide you need to believe it was the genuine right thing to do.

For what it is worth, I gave my daughter the MMR. I watched her for weeks afterwards, terrified of noticing changes. So far (8 weeks later) I've noticed nothing at all.

cansu Sat 06-Apr-13 10:46:39

dd2 unvacinated ASD has just had measles, I have just had it and am now trying to recover from chest infection caused by pneumonia. I have an older ds ASD who was vacinated and thank god has not caught it. It is a really tough decision. I think I was wrong to not vaccinate dd as both my dc have asd and dh is definitely undiagnosed aspergers. It is a very personal and difficult decision if you have asd in the family. I personally now feel strongly that ASD is a genetic issue and that MMR is a red herring. However, I realise this is my personal view and others will disagree.

bigbluebus Sat 06-Apr-13 10:54:45

I started a thread the other day about whether people had had their children vaccinated after they knew they had a DX of ASD.

DS is 16 and unvaccinated against MMR. He was DX with HF ASD at 6. He was due to have the MMR just as the Wakefield report was published and it all kicked off. We tried to get him the single jabs, but just as our GP had sourced a supplier, the Government pulled the plug on single vaccines. He remians unvaccinated. We would have to travel 50 miles to get the single jabs privately.

I do not believe that MMR causes autism, but do wonder if there is some truth about the 'gut' issues. We do not know the origin of DSs ASD. There are no obvious cases in the wider family, so probably not hereditary. Apart from having severe eczema as a baby (which is now virtually non-existant) he does not have any allergies but there are a number of people on DH side of the family who have dairy 'intolerance'.

I have buried my head in the sand over this issue of MMR for years but once again with a further outbreak (which we are nowhere near) it starts up the issue all over again. I am torn about what to do as DS is coming up to his GCSE exams in a months' time and I think this, in a way, makes the decision tougher. I do not want him to get Measles and miss his exams, neither do I want him to have a reaction to the jab which may affect him. And because he is 16 now, the decision is really (partly) his, which is tough when his mother can't decide!

Which decision could I live with - probably neither!

Sorry , not much help OP, but you are not alone in this dilemma.

cansu MMR may well be a red herring in your family but I find it harder to see it as a red herring in the cases I know of where children ended up in HDU or ICU post vaccination, then regressed and are now severely autistic (and that's prob something different from the Wakefield style regressions, know a few of those as well).

I think there is such a need to recognise that autism is not one thing, rather it's a collection of different conditions and that what is appropriate for one child may not be for another. It's been on my mind this week because being Autism Awareness Month I've seen so many polarised opinions on Facebook and Twitter and it drives me mad because I'm sure these people are talking about different things. Neurodiversity for example is really not appropriate for my son, he isn't different, he is disabled, but the approach we take with him would not be appropriate for those who align with the neurodiversity movement, and recognising him as disabled doesn't mean I value him less. I've just been reading an article with a neurodiverse author complaining about videos showing severely autistic kids having meltdowns in which they self injure and scream and saying that's not what autism is, except for many people that is the reality.

Sorry, the above isn't aimed as you cansu, & I've gone off on a tangent based on my musings this week. But your red herring comment just made me think that part of the problem with this sort of decision is that it has to be made at an individual level rather than an 'autism' level. And autism is so ruddy political now it's very difficult to find professional help to unpick everything.

cansu Sat 06-Apr-13 13:23:18

saintly i dont disagree with you. As i said I can only really give an opinion based on the asd in our family. I dont know enough about it to say categorically that vaccinnes cant cause damage. I agree also that the lack of knowledge about the causes of ASD and its different presentations mean that its virtually impossible to get any good definitive professional advice. I think all parents can do is look at their own family and make a judgement call. I feel I got it wrong at the moment and as a result dd suffered a lot and I am also very ill myself. I do blame myself but I can understand why I got it wrong. I would not judge others for the decisions they make.

googlyeyes Sat 06-Apr-13 13:39:17

'There is a definite connection between vaccines triggering autism in kids who are genetically or hereditarily predisposed to autism'

Yes, I too would like to see references for this assertion. I have only given ds2 the single measles jab as I can't shake the tiny seed of doubt re MMR (although ds1 was patently autistic before his MMR, and DD was absolutely fine after hers), but it is important to point out that the vast majority of medical professionals would strongly disagree with your statement.

Be kind to yourself! We have chosen not to vaccinate knowing that my mum was left deaf in one ear from measles. I also know that if one of the kids was left deaf in one ear from measles (or worse) that I would still feel not vaccinating was the right decision, but I do feel very strongly there is no other option for us, and we have to take the risk of that at least until the children are old enough to decide for themselves.

I suppose you do have the advantage of knowing now that your kids all have good immunity (including vaccinated ds who will have had a nice little booster from being around measles). :bright side:

I had measles myself btw - aged 8, so was old enough to remember what it was like, for me anyway. Hope you're feeling better soon. Do you mind me asking whether you were vaccinated as a child, or had just never come into contact with it? I think I should be immune as I had measles, but I worry a bit about dh - (as complications are more common in adults - and he does tend to go a bit chesty at every opportunity). DH didn't have measles and we have no idea whether he ever had a vaccination.

I am trying to make sure ds2 and ds3 have good vitamin A levels at the moment.

Dunno googly - officially there is no link (although there is quite a bit wrong with pretty much every paper 'proving' no link -especially because they do meaningless things like look at MMR and 'autism' (no such thing) rates) but I do know a number of medics who have confessed they do believe MMR played a part in some cases.

Politically there is no link, for most medics talking professionally there is no link, for some researchers there is a heavily qualified potential link when presenting a paper which is never mentioned in the peer reviewed text version, but talk to the medics & researchers privately and you often get a different (still heavily qualified) opinion. IME at least.

lottieandmia Sat 06-Apr-13 13:57:49

I'm glad to see this thread - I've been wondering about this too. I have youngest two dcs unvaccinated - the oldest dd has severe autism and learning difficulties (I don't dare mess with her tbh as she has had odd responses to medicines and illnesses in the past). dc2 is 9 years old - I am thinking if she caught measles now it would be more risky than if she had caught it when she was little. Also I suppose she will certainly need rubella vaccine. dc3 is nearly 4 - she seems to be a bit slow for her age (language is a bit delayed and she was a late walker but I think she is NT) so I don't want to vaccinate her yet. But the outbreak is of concern.

What I am wondering is that although uptake rates for MMR have been lower than the authorities would like, won't many people have had singles anyway?

Yes that's very true lottie. The single vaccine rate is never included in the figures. Uptake is now over 90% for MMR in most regions (95% in some regions) - add in the single jabs that are unrecorded in the figures and coverage amongst younger age groups is very high. (Those 90% + figures are for current pre-schoolers)

Some reports I have seen have mentioned that travellers have been affected in the recent outbreaks - unsurprising as they tend not to vaccinate - along with teens. With the report that said that '75% had not been vaccinated' I do wonder about the 25% - had they just had one jab? which has worn off (bearing in mind the second jab isn't meant to be a booster, it's meant to catch first time vaccine failures - well that was why it was originally introduced) or had they had two? Should everyone who was vaccinated as a young child be getting boosters in teens/early adulthood?

Dunno, but theyre the sorts of questions I'm left with.

My understanding is that measles becomes more dangerous post puberty - so I think 9 is still within the 'childhood' bracket iyswim.

And yes some of the areas with low MMR coverage are exactly the areas where you might expect people to be forking out for singles.

lottieandmia Sat 06-Apr-13 14:17:55

Yes, any of us could catch it (if we haven't had measles) because no booster is given for teenagers? I had the vaccine at 9 - I am thinking it will have likely worn off by now. It's impossible to know how long vaccine protection 'lasts'.

cansu Sat 06-Apr-13 14:24:53

saintly mmr wasnt around when I was young, it came in about ten years later so i was basically unvaccinated and as neither myself or my sibling had measles I guess I had no immunity. I suppose it might be worth getting your dh vaccinated as an adult. I have always been incredibly healthy but have had complications with pneumonia and a chest infection. I suppose my other thought as an adult with two children with ASD is that I have woken up to taking care of myself finally because the whole house of cards collapses when I am not able to run this house. I have struggled because I have been unable to take care of children due to being so unwell. Haven't seen dd for four weeks now as had to send her to my mums while I was ill myself. If nothing else I have realised I need to prioritise my health after this!

I don't know about rates for single vaccines. When I tried to find out about it I was pretty effectively stone walled by doctors who didnt even want to discuss it. I was pretty unconfident in those days and just didnt push it though I wish I had now.

cansu Sat 06-Apr-13 14:26:49

lottie I think immunity is meant to be lifelong. My understanding was that the second dose is really to catch the ten percent who are not immune after the first dose. ds has only had the first dose and is clearly immune as both dd and I have been infected.

googlyeyes Sat 06-Apr-13 14:33:36

Yes, Saintly, as I said I couldn't bring myself to go ahead with the MMR for ds2, and I don't know if I ever will give it to him. I did crack re the measles jab though as there was a measles scare in our area at the time, and I had never heard anyone talk of a link with single jabs and asd.

DS1 is an anomaly as no-one on either side of our families has any autism or even any signs of the broader phenotype. And he is the only one with eczema and dairy allergies (as a baby), so the cause of his autism is a total mystery to us. In his case I do know the MMR made absolutely no difference to his condition, but I couldn't know 100pc that the same would be true for DS2 if there was a susceptibility there for whatever reason.

It's just that I felt it was a bit irresponsible to baldly state that there was a 'definite' link. As if it was a proven fact. Better imo to say there is a suspected link in some cases, or that the situation is inconclusive, or that you know of cases where there has been a link.

He sounds quite similar to my ds1 googly. He developed eczema (straight after baby jabs) then developed severe eczema herpecticum & regressed following that (although it was treated pretty aggressively - that's the short version, there were quite a lot of other potential factors as well). Now severely autistic (non-verbal as a teen etc etc). No autism or BAP in the family although lots of autoimmune conditions and the other kids have had weirdy inflammatory responses to things.

Thanks cansu - I wonder whether dh is similar (in that no vaccination, but didn't get it - not sure). We don't really vaccinate now unless something was very high risk (especially as his family is the one with all the autoimmune conditions) so he prob won't do that. Always tricky!

bochead Sat 06-Apr-13 14:49:39

The original research was about a specific sub-group of autistic kids who also had gut/immune response issues and concluded that for this tiny % of autistic kids it was worth doing further research re the MMR. saying somethings is worth taking a closer look at something is not the same same as saying something is a causal factor. That's NOT the same as saying MMR causes autism by a long shot, but the British media is never that good at accurate scientific reporting.

DS was failure to thrive due to gut/allergy issues . He wasn't given the MMR as I wanted to wait. He did have all the other jabs, including for TB, though I think some were slightly later than usual. The TB jab was a priority for me as he has relatives from parts of the world where drug resistant strains are a real issue, & even though the jab only gives 30% protection against these, I consider it better than nothing.

DS did get measles, when he was at with no lasting side effects. BUT DS has the immune response of an OX to the usual childhood flu/cold/bugs. His class mates will be off sick for a week in bed with flu, and he'll just get a day of sniffles. I'm more than aware that not every child will only need a day or two in bed for measles (keeping DS entertained during his 3 week measles quarantine has gone down in family legend as it was hard work!). Some will be left crippled for life & we are in the middle of an outbreak.

The single jabs for mumps has eluded me completely and this is horrible for males to catch post puberty. Mumps in an adult is no joke, and complications can be very serious. I intend that he gets his MMR shots before he starts secondary as a result.

Lastly are you likely to have more children. I'm celibate so don't have to worry about exposure to Rubella - which can cause serious disability during gestation.

Every child is different, with a different family history and a different set of risk factors. This is why noone can make the choice for you. You have to live with the consequences.

lottieandmia Sat 06-Apr-13 14:52:30

cansu - I think as parents we focus on the kids and don't always think of what would happen if we got ill! I hope you are feeling better soon.

Silver - Scoot down to assessing infant susceptibility (or something like that). Might be helpful if you know your vaccination/measles disease status.

I have two boys possibly on the spectrum. Dd had severe intolerances when she was younger, centred in her gut, but she has grown out of them. Ds1 had a milder version of one of those intolerance, also gone now. We also have autistic phenotype family members on both sides.

In our case I did give all 3 the mmr, albeit at closer to 2 than 1 to be safe. Only ds2 had a worrying reaction, he got mini measles and mini mumps. However he was completely non verbal at the time anyway, with significant behavioural issues so I couldn't honestly say if the jab made him worse.

I'm happy with my decision, although I don't think ds2 will be having the booster next year as I'm relatively confident he's immune to measles and mumps and he doesn't cope well with jabs so it seems unnecessary.

For me, the risks associated with measles and rubella far outweighed the possibility of triggering a worsening of their issues.

MummytoMog Sat 06-Apr-13 17:34:13

We delayed DD (not that we thought there was anything wrong with her at the time) because she was such a diddy thing, and was poorly when she should have had it. Didn't notice any difference in her at all afterwards. We have no history of autism in the family, although ADD on both sides.

CeilingThomas Sat 06-Apr-13 20:34:07

Sorry I haven't been on all day. But thanks for all the thoughts and perspectives. Getting separate vaccines is a strong contender I think as this would reassure me that he has immunity to measles in particular which is the one I'm most concerned about given the out break figures.

More thinking to do. I'm not going to rush this decision. xx

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 22:07:17

http://www.smartvax.com/images/PDF/autism_primer_from_safeminds_for_general_public.pdf

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 22:08:13

Since I hv been asked strongly for references, am providing them

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 22:10:24

http://www.tacanow.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/autism-studies-april-2008.pdf

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 22:11:13

http://www.smartvax.com/images/PDF/autism_primer_from_safeminds_for_general_public.pdf

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 22:20:29

It is well understood that "environmental triggers" plus genetic suspectibility combine to cause autism. Most medical papers state that premise right in the opening paragraph. What is under debate is whether vaccines are indeed that environmental trigger. The studies that would establish the connection beyond a shadow of doubt have not been done. For ex- there is no study of differences in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. Therefore, the proof of the connection between vaccines and autism still requires people to read and think for themselves. For those who are willing to read and capable of thinking for themselves, the Hannah polling story is a good place to start. The other links I have already posted.

zumbaleena Sat 06-Apr-13 22:23:20

I am personally strongly convinced that vaccines are definitely one of the environmental triggers. In your case OP, where there are 3 cousins on hubby.s side on the spectrum, that indicates genetic suspectibility to be present in your child and knowingly that vaccines MAY be an environmental trigger that MAY put your kid to risk to autism, if you still decide to go ahead...of course, it is your life and you are free to decide.

And while we're on vaccinations wearing off. If you read this from that hotbed of well known anti-vaccinaton propaganda - the health protection agency they say (page 8) 'The evidence indicates whilst infants of naturally immune mothers are likely to have protective antibodies (this is to measles) until 6 months of age, a significant number of those born to vaccinated mother may not have protective titres from birth'.

Why aren't they giving another MMR booster? I'm not sure I comprehend.

whoops wrong thread

We recently got our autism diagnosis for DS (6) who had his MMR at the suggested age. We also have autism in the family - my cousin, who started showing signs of regression at 18 months. He also had MMR.

However, my auntie did not believe the MMR caused his, I never knew why and I never asked either but will.

At our appointment the other day the paed wanted to know all the ins and outs of my pregnancy, his birth, how he fed, his temperament...etc.

From us telling him that DS was uninterested in feeding for the first 5 days to the point of having to be tube fed he concluded that this could have been the very first sign that DS had autism - where he lacked the sensory skills to carry out the most inbuilt reflex that every newborn baby should have - to suck.
We thought nothing of it at the time, just that he was lazy/tired, we had no reason to suspect autism!

What I'm saying is that whilst some people blame the mmr, sometimes if they recall everything that has happened, most autistic will have shown something that wasn't quite right during their first year - but it's not picked up because those parents are either dealing with the first child and know no different/or possibly have 2 young babies and are genuinely so tired and running on empty that that really good, quiet baby who never demands anything is a welcome relief (that was us!)

I don't believe the MMR caused my sons autism - the signs were there beforehand, I just didn't recognise them and if I could do it all over again I would because his autism is what makes him who he is and I'd rather he be autistic (although his is middle of the spectrum autism so i cant speak for those dealing with really severe autism) than risk serious life threatening illnesses or possible death caused by measles.

Ps that is just my own opinion - To be honest, if my auntie was then willing to allow her daughters to give their children the MMR that was enough reason for me to do it with mine, I didn't know about possible genetic links back then either - I had no reason to research all that, I had already had 2 NT children by then.

lirael Mon 08-Apr-13 00:55:20

Both mine had the first MMR jab but neither has had the second. DS2 (10) has autism with severe learning difficulties. He developed a life -threatening staphyloccocal skin infection at 10 days old, for which he had to have huge amounts of steroids and antibiotics. He then developed severe eczema as a baby/toddler, had horrendous toddler diarrohea, developed asthma in his second year (for which he still has a steroid inhaler) and has various food intolerances. DS1(11) has dyspraxia, but no allergy issues and had very little illness as a baby.We have some auto-immune conditions in the extended family and my brother's DS has also been diagnosed with HFA.

My own belief is that there may well be a genetic link, but that DS2's severe issues were environmentally triggered by the assault on his immune system as an infant, which includes vaccinations. He is now much healthier, but his food intolerances, asthma and eczema remain, though all are now under control. I've never questioned my decision not to give them the second jab (well I've questioned it, but not wavered) but now I find myself wondering. DS2's asthmatic profile means that measles might well hit him hard and although DS1 is very rarely ill, the two bouts of serious illness he's had in 11 years have both been chest infections.

Is there a way of testing for antibodies to see if they need the second jab?

lirael Mon 08-Apr-13 19:18:20

Bump

humblebumble Mon 08-Apr-13 19:34:21

I put my DS2 on a delayed schedule. I really struggled with making the decision to vaccinate, ultimately I went with how I felt and on the advice of our son's neurologist.

DS2 has a neurological condition where there is a v.high prevalence of autism, learning disorders, etc. Interestingly his first neurologist (we've since moved) noted as early as 9 months that it was unlikely he would be on the spectrum. DS is 3 now and is still not showing signs of being autistic although he does have some learning issues.

There is a test, a blood test, but administering it is more expensive than just giving the booster (and can be more traumatic!) You should be able to get it done privately.

zumbaleena Mon 08-Apr-13 19:36:19

hi ellen...what test are you referring to? what does this test "test"?

Not an expert! blush But I did ask our GP. Also when pregnant I had various bloods taken to test for rubella immunity etc, so I'm sure immunity to measles could also be checked.

labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/measles/tab/test

Quick google shows lots of serology tests for antigens.

zumbaleena Mon 08-Apr-13 20:06:24

oh ok! yes...i tend to agree...immunity to rubella an be checked. I got mine checked

lirael Mon 08-Apr-13 21:28:31

Thanks Ellen

BlackeyedSusan Tue 09-Apr-13 01:06:50

ds was showing signs of autism before he had the mmr. bloody fixation with wheels.

lirael Tue 09-Apr-13 18:54:47

Looking back, DS2 had a few signs too. Very self-reliant, hated going out, would scream in the car and the supermarket. But DS1 also had traits - his didn't develop into anything major, whereas DS2's did, which is what leads me to the environmental trigger theory

mrslaughan Tue 09-Apr-13 19:00:30

Your choice as to whether to vaccinate or not but if 75% are unvaccinated, 25% are.... What we are seeing is the effect of a largish proportion of the population unvaccinated, affecting the efficacy of vaccination.
Never under estimate how dangerous measles can be - my brother had weeks in hospital with seizures and a class mate of his died.

Mumps causes infertility, so is hardly innocuous .

But the efficacy of the vaccination is better with circulating disease (at least in terms of how long it confers immunity). Not sure what you mean mrslaughan. The 25% figure was not confirmed today during the webchat so maybe it's wrong.

OP I would say go and read the David Salisbury thread as one of the Lancet mothers was posting her story on there, but unfortunately her posts seem to have been deleted (no explanation as to why yet).

mymatemax Tue 09-Apr-13 19:24:46

Ds2 was vaccinated, his disabilities (including autism) were evident before vaccination & are as a result of prematurity & brain damage. Of the families we know with more severe autismthere seems to be an identifiable cause\link. Epilepsy, brain injury & in two cases hospitalisation following reaction to vaccine. In the vaccine families other children also havecsevere asthma & ecxema & one parent has a serious auto immune disorder (vargners grandula mitosis. (sp)). of the families I know that have more than one child with autism there seems to be nothing unusual to point to a cause but the children are hfa. Not sure if the families I know r are true reflection? Or even if it helps the op smile

bigbluebus Tue 09-Apr-13 19:29:06

Well, having discussed the issue of Measles and MMR jabs with DS(16), he has decided that he will have the vaccination - entirely his decision - I just gave him the facts of the case for and against.
I have phoned the GP and he has an appointment for tomorrow morning.
So please keep your fingers crossed for us that it all goes well and that he doesn't suffer any ill effects - especially as his GCSEs start in 4 weeks!

Interestingly, I was the 1st person to enquire about the MMR vaccination at our surgery in the wake of the current media coverage(other than for babies who are having scheduled jabs). They didn't even know if they had one in stock - but apparently they have got 1 )

mymate - very similar pattern amongst my circle of friends as well.

Fingers crossed for you bigblue! And yes ds2 and ds3 can make their own minds up when they're 16 as well. smile

Maisiemoo13 Tue 09-Apr-13 22:09:30

Hi everyone , I decided against the mmr for my son as he had horrible reactions toward his previous injections as a baby And i felt he couldnt handle having three live viruses being injected into him at one time This was around the time that concerns were being raised.
I paid for him to have the single vaccines and they were given three months apart at the time, if you are concerned you should trust your instincts , I wouldn't have liked him to not be covered at all , when I spoke to my health visitor to ask for help locating a private clinic I was told she wasn't allowed to give me information on that!!! Could not believe that she would rather see him unprotected against these viruses! I am so glad I went down the single vaccine route, I know they say no link has been found but its hard to ignore the numerous reports of parents who know there children

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