Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

6.6 year old year 1 national curriculum level p7

(43 Posts)
JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 18:08:59

HI, my son is currently working at level p7 for reading and and writing, I am wondering if anyone knows how far behind he is based on this. He has an IEP that focuses on reading, he still struggles to read words such as cat and sit and tends to sound them out correctly but then say them backwards, for example cat is tac.

DS has a phonological speech disorder and sensory processing difficulties and we are awaiting results of ADOS.

He has also just had a movement ABC test and he is on the 9th percentile, and his visual integration is well below average. I am wondering if any of his difficulties could be causing the literacy problems or whether i should be looking into dyslexia or is it a bit too early for that?

MadameSin Sun 17-Mar-13 18:24:23

Are you England? ... doesn't sound like SAT levels they use in England .... unless I'm clueless, which is very possible .....

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 18:26:35

Yes I'm in England, I think it is because he is working below the national curriculum levels so they are using p scales, although I am unsure of what that actually means.

Strongecoffeeismydrug Sun 17-Mar-13 18:43:06

DS is on p levels ,they go up to p8 then move on to national curriculum levels.

delllie Sun 17-Mar-13 18:44:00

P levels go up to level 8, then move on to level 1 on the national curriculum

There is a kind of description of them here

http://www.suffolkmaths.co.uk/pages/1SEN_P%20Levels.htm

AgnesDiPesto Sun 17-Mar-13 19:17:47

In reception children would be assessed under EYFS - DS will never meet parts of this eg social etc due to his ASD
He is year 1 and also on P scales although I think quite a bit lower than P7 - although they have not been done for a while.
Children move onto NC in Year 1. Some children will initially still be on EYFS as not met all of this - but the majority would be expected to be 1C on entry to Year 1 or soon after and 'average' child would be 1b or 1a by end of Year 1
So I would say P7 is not hugely behind - perhaps 12 months?
However I am also not sure how useful P scales, EYFS etc is for children with ASD or traits because of the spiky profile eg DS often has huge gaps at each P scale level - so for eg he can't do the imaginative side of stories at all, no empathy and very limited understanding but his reading age is actually quite far ahead. So he can score highly on some parts of the P scale and not at all on other parts within the same band.

DS rote learns to read, he does not really sound out words so well. His memory is amazing so he gets away with it.

We haven't used it but Headsprout is a reading programme often recommended on here. If you have a look at it and are interested would be worth starting a thread. Its quite expensive and I am not sure DS is ready for it. There are other free reading schemes eg Starfall (if you can stand the American accents). Sometimes computer based programmes can appeal more. There is a BBC website 'words and pictures' (I can remember watching this at school in the 1970s!) Our school uses phonics play.

You could try something like communication in print / boardmaker where you can type words and have symbols next to each word (so its like writing in symbols). DS loves this - we use it mainly to aid understanding eg when he has to learn songs at school he can rote learn them but has no idea what he's saying so I do one with the pictures next to the word. We have CIP at our library but some schools have it or SLT may be able to help.

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 19:32:39

I will go and have a look at grassroots but it would depend on how expensive it actually is. Although we have just put in a claim for DLA so if it is successful that could be an option.

I did notice when she looked at her piece of paper with the levels on it that DS was the only one in his class on p levels. So I guess that worried me. At what point would they consider getting an educational psychologist in?

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 19:33:54

Headsprout even, autocorrect is at it again.

Flappingandflying Sun 17-Mar-13 20:10:24

It is quite a bit behind. Is he in year 1 or year 2? If he is in year 1 still then really he should be on 1a by now. Anywhere on level 1 would be okish. If he is in year 2 then this is serious. He should be at level 2b.

From what you have said, there are most certainly some barriers to learning and he might well have complex specific difficulties, ie, more than one. Push for ed psych asap. How much extra support is he getting? He should be on a specific reading programme and have some small group or individual support. Time to start getting the SEN mum bolshies methinks.

bochead Sun 17-Mar-13 20:29:10

P scales are the foundation stage measures prior to moving onto the NC.

A few children, like my son the move onto the PIVATS scales which breack down the NC levels into miniscule detail to facilitate more precision of teaching and assessment. This can be very useful for children with very spikey profiles e.g my son cannot write for toffee, BUT has a wide ranging vocab and good knowledge of grammer, so the PIVAT scales enable his teacher to ensure he is genuinely making progress to his full potential. His current NC level 2 grade doesn't accurately reflect his abilities iyswim & was frustrating his CT, who wanted quite right rightly to target her interventions to best effect. You may also find the PIVATS scales useful for both yourself and his teachers as he moves through school. Well worth asking about. Trouble is they are rarely used for children without statements, which is a shame as I think that especially for literacy they are potentially of fantastic value to primary aged ASD/dyslexic/dyspraxic kids (ABA by the back doorwink).

Don't be scared to ask what your child's predicted levels for the end of the academic year are at regular intervals. It reminds people that actually you do expect your child to make progress (sometimes school staff's low expectations of SN kids can become a horrid self-fulfilling prophecy).

I very get down about where my child is sometimes, (year 4) then I remember that he's gone from mid P level to a high NC 2 grade in less than 2 years with appropriate interventions in place. That progress rate was only made possible by staff ASD training, outreach, SALT, OT - all of which were only accessed via a statement. It also helps that he's now at a fanatastic school with very dedicated teachers and a HT who seems to be on a personal mission to see him make progress wink. Had he not changed to a good school and got a decent statement he'd still be on the P scales.

It is worth taking the time to take a look at the IPSEA website and having a think about applying for a statement of special educational needs. It is better for you the parents to apply, as you have a right of appeal if rejected which schools do not. You will also be made aware of what's happening at each stage of the process, which is so much more reassuring than feeling you have to "chase" the SENCO for updates.

A behavioral optometrist is something we do privately for DS to help resolve his visual tracking issues. He's a bad case so it's taking years, but without the OT & BO interventions he would possibly never have learnt to read. Some children can be "sorted out" in as little as 3-6 months. I use his DLA to fund the monthly appt. Again well worth looking into.

sazale Sun 17-Mar-13 20:39:08

Justpondering are you sure you're not talking about my son lol!

My son was 6 last month, in year 1 and is on p levels but I'm not sure which ones as school won't tell me!

He also has a phonological speech disorder and hypermobility which is bad in his hands and makes it difficult to write! He has social anxiety that manifests a selective mutism, some sensory processing issues and is having the ADOS in the morning!

Speech disorders put children at a higher risk of literacy difficulties particularly phonological speech disorders. The same phonological processes are used for reading so it can impact literacy. Phonological processing difficulties are also one of the different causes of dyslexia.

A bit of info here
www.thecommunicationtrust.org.uk/media/18907/communicating_phonics_phonological_delay.pdf

sazale Sun 17-Mar-13 21:39:35

There a bit more info about p levels and NC levels here

www.stokehilljunior.devon.sch.uk/downloads/National_Curriculum_Point_Scales.pdf

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 21:47:13

sazale my DS also has hypermobility in his fingers! We have put stickers on all his cutlery to help him to use them properly.

flappingandflying he is in year 1, he missed out from being in year 2 by less than a week which is probably for the best considering. He was in nursery for 2 years though.

He gets help in small groups with his reading and has one to one reading everyday but with not much progress, he isn't fulfilling what is on his IEP.

His teacher said that by the end of the year he needs to write 2 sentences that are understandable to others and that just seems impossible right now, he can write his name and mum and a couple of others, but no sentences at all.

Can I request an ed psych? The senco mentioned getting one in months ago but nothing seems to be happening. Can CAMHS request an ed psych?

lougle Sun 17-Mar-13 22:12:37

Hi JustPondering, DD1 goes to special school and is in year 2. She is on P7 for reading, IIRC.

P7 equals 5 National Curriculum (NC) points.

'Good progress' is 3 points per year.

On the link sazale gave, it says:

"Numbers shown in the grid below are National Curriculum Points [NCP]. To calculate the comparison (or difference) between a child’s attainment and their expected level, levels are converted to NCP. For example, a child at the end of Year 4 attaining 4C+ (26 NCP) is expected to attain 3B (21 NCP). Therefore, attainment difference is 26 – 21 = +5. "

So, if your DS is expected to be a level 1 by the end of year 1 - let's use 1B because that's the mid-point of level 1, that's 10 NC points.

IF he finishes the year on P7, that's 5 NC points.

5-10= -5 points.

That link shows -5 points as being at the high end of '1 year behind'. Just one point more and it would be '2 years behind'.

The difficult part is that progress expected is 3 points per year. That means, that to catch up, your DS has to not only make 3 points progress, but also 'make-up' the 5 points that he's behind. That means that he'd have to be progressing at a rate that is 2⅔ times his peers who don't have any difficulties sad

As another example, looking at those same charts, DD1 who is in year 2 and on P7:

Expected level at end of year 2: 2B = 15 points

Actual level: P7 = 5 points

5-15 = -10

Well, their pretty chart doesn't go beyond '-8', which is '2 or more years behind'.

lougle Sun 17-Mar-13 22:13:41

To be honest, I think that you should be applying for a Statement for him. It sounds like he's quite a complex little chap.

sazale Sun 17-Mar-13 22:31:47

I'm building up to applying for a statement justpondering so I would agree with lougles advice. My DS finished on an eyfs of 3 for writing and 4 for reading so he was already a year behind when entering year 1 and I think they were being generous!

The only reason I'm waiting is because the ed psych is coming in on the 26th but I fully intend to apply before the years out. The only reason they've brought in EP is because the OT recommended it in her report and stated he had a complex learning profile.

How's your DS doing with maths? Mine struggles to add 2+1 mentally and doesn't know his number bonds. The clinical psych we see did iq testing to rule out any learning disabilities that could be causing the mutism. It showed both non verbal and verbal abilities all within the average range so she says she thinks he probably has dyslexia and dyscalculia.

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 22:34:32

I will look into a statement but school have not suggested one, so not sure if it will be successful. I really don't want him falling further and further behind though.

Also he is currently on school action at my request but should he actually be on school action plus seeing as he has an OT going into school advising them on how to help him and doing a program with him in school, also the local special school have been in observing him and gave the school suggestions with things like visual timers.

lougle Sun 17-Mar-13 22:37:55

I had to pursue DD1's statement myself when she was 3. I was told she'd go to mainstream, but the LA offered special school. It isn't as simple as 'school haven't suggested one.' You are just as entitled to request one as any school is.

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 22:41:15

Well school said he is OK with his maths strangely, he can add numbers with his fingers up to ten but struggles with number bonds. I don't actually know what is expected in year 1 though.

They said he is confident and enthusiastic apart from he is losing confidence in reading. They have problems with him taking turns, sitting still and not blurtng the answers out in class. And he is too loud and interrupts. But they are implementing the sand timers to help him see when he has to wait. The teacher seems to think he is fine but I disagree based on the evidence of his difficulty in learning.

sazale Sun 17-Mar-13 22:45:35

I know school would never support one especially since he is quiet and well behaved. Even the EP said to us (to excuse the SENCO delaying referring to her) that the SENCO does have her hands full as the school has numerous challenging pupils and ofsted breathing down the schools neck!!

Boch, can parents get hold of those PIVATS?

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 23:45:34

I will try for a statement tomorrow I think, do I need to inform school and what information will I need, do I need his level for numeracy too?

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 23:53:06

sazale that could quite well be the case with this school, they are in a disadvantaged area and are very low down the league tables, might not be the case of course but you never know.

My 11 year old is having problems in school, with behaviour and rudeness they have just referred him to CAMHS as they
think he has aspergers, yet they haven't put him on school action despite him having multiple detentions per week. It may be because academically he is doing great though, he is currently working at level 6.

JustPondering Sun 17-Mar-13 23:53:40

Both children are in the same primary.

bochead Mon 18-Mar-13 03:00:15

I've asked the school Star and will be happy to pass it on to you, (hopefully on Friday). I'm hoping that I can use them as a guide for academic stuff at home now in the same way I did the VBMAPP for social stuff back in the daywink.

OP I've met one too many parents of teens who bitterly regret not applying for a statement themselves in a timely manner. Contrary to popular belief, many schools only apply for statements for the violent chair throwers - if your child doesn't come into this category they may well be overlooked. It's very, very unjust but often only the children of parents who are prepared to fight hard for provision get anywhere near close to an adequate education.

It takes 5 mins to use one of the model letters provided on the IPSEA website + the cost of a recorded delivery stamp yet could potentially change your child's whole future. Do it as you really have nothing to lose.

sazale Mon 18-Mar-13 06:57:56

Just pondering, I have a dd 14 who was diagnosed ASD last year and now has a statement and attends special school for non academic reasons. Academically she is in front. She attended the same primary school and was completely missed. The lust if difficulties she has is growing by the day and the special school are not meeting her needs. I am about to take on the battle for pushing for an ASD specialist school.

I knew nothing of statements etc until about 2 years ago and I'm determined my DS won't miss out on early intervention like my dd did. Academics make up only one part of the reasons for a statement. If you let me have your email address I'll email you a document of useful links I created for some family rights information sessions I was part of recently,

I learned lots from searching old posts on here. Some of the people on here are so knowledgeable it's amazing.

someoneoutthere Mon 18-Mar-13 07:04:11

Bochead, could I also have a copy of the PIVATS? Just want to see where DS 7 is, as he is definitely not on NC levels.

someoneoutthere Mon 18-Mar-13 07:04:55

I will send you my email address if you say yes.

sazale Mon 18-Mar-13 07:26:57

There's some info on pivats here in case it helps

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?PIVATS/14588

Justpondering I'll try to copy and paste the links when I get to my PC as may be useful for others as well x

sazale Mon 18-Mar-13 07:27:15

'I've asked the school Star and will be happy to pass it on to you, (hopefully on Friday). I'm hoping that I can use them as a guide for academic stuff at home now in the same way I did the VBMAPP for social stuff back in the day.'

That's exactly it Boch. More than happy to reiburse any photocopying or postage costs, plus time if it can't be passed on electronically.

I might also contact the people wot make it and see if they have any process for issuing to non-schools. I know that these organisations can be a bit funny about parents!

bochead Mon 18-Mar-13 10:07:48

someoneoutthere- PIVATS is the NC levels - just broken down further beyond the standard level 1a, 1b, 1c.

my Mum is contacting the people wot make it just in case wot the school give me is too "parent friendly" iykwim. between us we should come up with the goods ; ) There should be a professional guidance book in existence somewhere.

someoneoutthere Mon 18-Mar-13 11:04:28

Same here, happy to reimburse any cost you incur.

sazale Mon 18-Mar-13 11:46:51

Links to useful websites:

Education

SEN code of practice
https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/publicationDetail/Page1/DfES%200581%202001

SEN a guide for parents and carers
https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/publicationDetail/Page1/DCSF-00639-2008

How to appeal against a SEN decision
www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/tribunals/special-educational-needs-and-disability/HowToAppealAgainstSENDdecision_Jan11.pdf

Home to school travel and transport guidance
https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/publicationdetail/page1/DFES-00373-2007

www.ipsea.org.uk/Apps/Content/html/?fid=89 (has lots of information including template letters). They also have a helpline but you can also book a telephone appointment online for them to ring you www.ipsea.org.uk/How-we-can-help/Advice-Line-Call-Back-Service.aspx

www.ace-ed.org.uk/

www.sossen.org.uk/

www.autism.org.uk/living-with-autism/education-and-transition.aspx

Details of the NAS education rights line:
www.autism.org.uk/advocacy

An example statement of SEN
www.ambitiousaboutautism.org.uk/lib/liDownload/208/What_does_the_statement_look_like.pdf?CFID=8323891&CFTOKEN=14608577

More info about checking a statement including the “weasel” words you don’t want in it!
www.sossen.org.uk/reports/Check_statement.pdf

How to get a copy of your child's school records.
www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/sector_guides/~/media/documents/library/Data_Protection/Detailed_specialist_guides/technical_guidance_note_access_to_pupils_information_held_by_schools_in_england.ashx


Might be useful for anyone wanting to know how to gather their own evidence to prove their child needs a statement.
www.ipsea.org.uk/AssetLibrary/Downloadable%20documents/IPSEA%20R2A%20pack%20evidence%20about%20your%20child.doc

Social Care and Benefits

www.nhs.uk/CarersDirect/guide/assessments/Pages/disabled-child-assessment.aspx

www.dls.org.uk/advice/factsheet/community_care/assessments_and_services_for_disabled_children/Assessments%20and%20Services%20for%20Disabled%20Children.pdf

www.autism.org.uk/living-with-autism/benefits-and-community-care.aspx

A really good guide to completing a DLA form
www.cerebra.org.uk/English/getinformation/publications/Pages/DLAGuide.aspx

This is the current statutory guidance for local authority children’s services, setting out the representations and complaints procedures that they should use.
https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/publicationDetail/Page1/DFES-2055-2006

The local authority ombudsman
www.lgo.org.uk/

Other sites

The cerebra site has lots of useful information for families with a child with a disability
www.cerebra.org.uk/English/Pages/home.aspx
They offer grants for equipment, therapy etc. This includes speech and language therapy. All children on the spectrum have some difficulties with speech and/or language as it also covers social skills and none verbal communication amongst other things. www.cerebra.org.uk/English/gethelp/grants/Pages/whatcanIapplyfor.aspx

The Family Fund also offer grants to families with a child with a disability.
www.familyfund.org.uk/grants

Contact a family have a variety of useful information sheets about numerous things including health, social care, education and benefits.
www.cafamily.org.uk/

Ambitious about autism have a variety of information as well
www.ambitiousaboutautism.org.uk/page/index.cfm

Disabled Children: A Legal Handbook is available to read for free here
www.councilfordisabledchildren.org.uk/resources/cdcs-resources/disabled-children-a-legal-handbook

sazale Mon 18-Mar-13 11:47:27

I've just copied and pasted it all just in case it might help anyone.

Badvoc Mon 18-Mar-13 13:34:17

Hi op.
Check out the tinsley house support thread.
You could also look at engagingeyes.co.uk to help your sons visual problems.
Good luck.
It's very hard when your child is obv bright but not progressing sad

Badvoc Mon 18-Mar-13 13:37:52

Oh, and my son was scoring low level 1s in year 3 so I know how upsetting and worrying it is.
He is now in year 5 and getting high 3s and 4s smile
As bochead says, it's all about getting the right intervention for your child and as early as possible.

ouryve Mon 18-Mar-13 14:16:48

Like Bochead's son, DS2, who is a couple of months older than yours, so in year 2, is being assessed on PIVATS. He's only really anywhere up the p scales in maths and even then, the jumps are simply too big for him.

Badvoc Mon 18-Mar-13 14:51:06

Some of the jumps are huge though, aren't they?
From a comprehension perspective I mean.
Took ds a long time to get from a level 2 to a 3 for example.

lougle Mon 18-Mar-13 19:51:11

Our Local Authority uses CASPA (Comparison and Analysis of Special Pupil Attainment), which is along the same lines as PIVATS. You can also get a CASPA-PIVAT conversion table.

CASPA can be downloaded in an evaluative form Here. The only restriction is on import/export of data.

The help files gives some nice examples of sub-level descriptors.

I think it does make a difference. One teacher at special school told me that sometimes pupils come in from MS with incredibly low p-levels, and by using CASPA and sub-levels, the teachers can demonstrate that actually, they are achieving more than it seems, even if the profile is spikey and the overall picture would be flattened by the peaks and troughs cancelling each other out.

lougle Tue 19-Mar-13 09:35:46

bumping for you - the CASPA might be worth checking out for people who want to do data tracking?

2006hildy Tue 19-Mar-13 10:36:15

Hello everybody,

We are in a virtually identical situation too. Very interesting reading.

DS dx High functioning ASD DOB Aug 2006 so just made it into year 2. Averaging p7 to p8 across all subjects. So technically our son is doing worse than yours being in year 1. Still the LEA argue that he is making good progress.

Like somebody said though, it is very rarely, that just the academic side makes it through the statementing process.

So we are taking, the angle, at the moment, for tribunal - date July 2013, that:

His triad of impairments are being neglected, as they have not been monitoring them, the strategies to help him have hardly changed over three years and the descriptors of progress are not transparent.

They have to be making "adequate progress" SEN Cop para 5.42 in ALL their areas of need not just academic, so this includes SALT of which there is a P scale as well as social interaction and rigidity of thinking.

I am working on the Autism Advisory service to give me clear progress quantifiable values for social interaction and rigidity of thinking. If anybody knows what they may be, please do share.

Hope this helps your situation.

JustPondering Tue 19-Mar-13 17:07:58

I'm going to go look at all those links now.

Just come back from appointment with CAMHS, who say that it isn't autism that he has its adhd, they want to give him medication, is the medication helpful though? I think I need to look into the side effects before the next appointment. Oh dear, I have been looking into the wrong disorder it seems.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now