Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

I think I may have been offered a caring carrot today...

(136 Posts)
hazeyjane Mon 25-Feb-13 19:20:50

...ds was being observed by a learning disability nurse today at nursery, in the hope that she can help come up with a plan wrt ds's separation anxiety when he starts preschool in April.

Ds was having a good day, he has now had 2 of these since starting 16 months ago, it has been a long hard slog to even get him to look at his keyworker, or play without having a hand on my leg at all times, or scream for most of the session, and I can't leave the room without him going into a complete meltdown.

After watching him for the session, and listening to his keyworker explain the severity of his separation anxiety, her suggestion was, 'have you tried telling ds that you are just popping out to the loo, and will be back in a minute?.....'

Obviously all our problems are solved now, phew.

MerryCouthyMows Mon 25-Feb-13 19:21:49

grin. They can be so flipping condescending sometimes!!

BeeMom Mon 25-Feb-13 19:31:04

Yes, that is a stellar idea. Lie to your child and prove he cannot trust you.

And the next time you "pop out to the loo", he will be so terrified that you won't come back that you will not be able to peel him off for love or money.

I know where the nurse can put that carrot...


justaboutchilledout Mon 25-Feb-13 19:45:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TaggieCampbellBlack Mon 25-Feb-13 19:45:58

Did you ask to see her professional qualifications?

Blithing eejit.

TaggieCampbellBlack Mon 25-Feb-13 19:46:14

Her not you.

Ah the caring carrot approach, this woman is honestly about as useful as a chocolate teapot and full of hot air.

I hope you told her where she could stick that suggestion i.e where the sun does not shine!.

Would suggest you start applying for a Statement of special needs from the LEA asap if this has not already been done.

Strongecoffeeismydrug Mon 25-Feb-13 19:55:19

DS doesn't eat at school and the dietitian went in to observe then she called a meeting for all staff and us parents,her recommendation was the staff have to tell him about how his body needs food for energy and he can't leave the table till he's eaten everything on his plate!!!
Seriously thought one of the staff was going to hyperventilate she was so blooming angry

hazeyjane Mon 25-Feb-13 20:23:47

Well, whilst I didn't tell her to shove her blooming carrot, when she started explaining to me about how some working mothers have to leave their children at nursery crying or not, I did throw my hands up in the air, and say, 'and here we go again!' ( it is what the sn nursery manager said to me at the beginning when I tried to explain, just how clingy ds is). She apologised for upsetting me, and I said, 'I'm not upset,I'm angry' blush

Atilla, we have applied for a statement, the meeting is on Wednesday afternoon. 12 people coming and reports all written. I am crapping myself!

Ineedmorepatience Mon 25-Feb-13 22:25:59

I just cant get my head around the stupid comments these so called professionals make.

I have heard a couple of pearlers at work recently, which I cant share but how I didnt say something I dont know as I am not normally known for keeping my thoughts to myself.

Smile and nod hazey, smile and nod!!

zzzzz Mon 25-Feb-13 22:33:46

Ooh hazey I like "I'm no upset, I'm angry". grin

I think we should start posting carrots. It's utterly ridiculous to have to receive this crap.

Handywoman Mon 25-Feb-13 22:47:41

We should deffo have an award.....Caring Carrot of the month? BeeMom you are brilliant!

justaboutchilledout Mon 25-Feb-13 23:05:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

inappropriatelyemployed Mon 25-Feb-13 23:11:58

Ooooh, perhaps you could do a social story about it - about anything - they cure EVERYTHING doncha know?

WilsonFrickett Mon 25-Feb-13 23:16:58

HAHA! A SALT actually asked me if I'd <headtilt> 'heard of social stories' last week. Thank god DP was there, I think he thinks I make this stuff up grin

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 13:14:56

I am fully prepared to be offered a platter of caring carrots tomorrow, with 12 professionals around a table, the chances of the odd carrot being flung around is highly likely. I feel sorely tempted to make a carrot cake to pass around.

I must remember to breathe deeply, and count to 10.

KeepOnKeepingOn1 Tue 26-Feb-13 13:21:30

Maybe you should take a plate of biscuit with you and offer them around each time you hear one of these little gems grin

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 13:23:42

I am just hugely grateful for the mumsnet sn geese, because without them I wouldn't be prepared for all this stuff, and I wouldn't have anyone to vent to afterwards, who 'gets it' as well as you all do.

Bluebirdonmyshoulder Tue 26-Feb-13 13:37:30

2 weeks after bluechick was diagnosed, when we were still reeling and wondering where the life we'd planned had gone, her new paediatrician told me it was really important to stop worrying about her future and start enjoying life. I was beyond angry

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 13:45:41

I find it really frustrating when hcp are so relentlessly positive, at a time when you are in turmoil about the road that you are starting out on, Bluebird. Yesterday we saw a chest specialist who is making a decision about a ct scan for ds's lungs, he said to me, 'his chest sounds really good today, we will give it a month and then do a chest xray and make a decision then.', when I was leaving I said it was a huge relief to hear him say his chest sounded good, and he said, 'I want to point out that when I say it sounds good, I mean it sounds good for ds. It is still pretty full of noise, and there is still something going on there.' I wish they would just be a bit more forthright about things.

grinnbareit Tue 26-Feb-13 14:14:44

sorry to hijack with nothing useful to say other than.........what is a caring carrot??? grin

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 14:25:31

ooh, starlight you have just reminded me of body shop carrot oil, which i used to slather over my eczema and acne riddled skin in my youth. Turned me and my pillowcase an oily shade of orange (think Dale Winton with a high polish) and did fuck all else.

This is Moosemama's explanation of the 'caring carrot' (I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her!)

'the caring carrot thing came about because someone, sorry I've forgotten who, had some spectacularly patronising advice from a member of staff at her dc's school, about 'fixing' his speech issues by making him some carrot sticks - including how to make them - in considerable detail.

Since then, anyone who offers patronising advice to any of us, suggesting things we couldn't possibly of thought of ourselves to do to support our dcs development (eg zzzz's sister telling her that all she needs to do is read to her dcs every day) earns the title 'Caring Carrot'.

It can often be applied to well-meaning, yet clueless professionals who seem to think that we could fix our dcs if only we were better parents.'

inappropriatelyemployed Tue 26-Feb-13 14:43:30

Example, on a visit to see a secondary school, head says when I explain DS needs to work, occasionally, outside the classroom, 'I think you'll find that it is better for children to be taught by teachers in the classroom'.

Well, that shook the foundations of my world. I will remember that to tell next time he is hiding outside class, too anxious to go in. It's bound to work.

Why didn't I think of that before?

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 14:46:39

'twas me who was offered the original carrot baton preparation advice.

Bloody hell what a claim to fame. blush

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 14:50:23

everyone on the sn boards needs to be issued with some of these and some pins, for voodoo purposes.

SW: Mrs Starlight, you just have to MAKE time!


and 'that will be what your DLA is for!' <what? propping up LA services?>

ouryve Tue 26-Feb-13 14:53:31

Sterling advice! Even a completely NT child would end up mistrustful after that lie.

I still haven't got round to sending my boys into a field to climb trees in the 3 years since it was suggested.

But best of all (until I change my mind)

'You just have to be firm with him and TELL him to go to sleep!'

WilsonFrickett Tue 26-Feb-13 14:59:24

'I think you'll find that it is better for children to be taught by teachers in the classroom'.

Sorry inappropriate but that is the best quote, like, ever. No shit Sherlock! grin thanks

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 15:32:48

I was once asked by someone who had actively avoided doing anything with my child (and who failed to turn up to meetings-always mysteriously busy elsewhere) if I wanted to 'talk about it' and was reminded that 'we only want the best for her'

Complete with head tilt, squeeze of arm and patronising smile.

I told her that no, I didn't want to talk about it. What I wanted was for her to do something. (Then of course I realised she hadn't a bloody clue and withdrew my child from her noon existent service in any case)

OMG, this all brings back nightmares of Opportunity class!!!!

I always wondered why It was called thus but know now it meant simply an opportunity to patronise, ridicule and humiliate the parent whilst feeling smug and good about yourself!

TaggieCampbellBlack Tue 26-Feb-13 15:58:22

My carrots came ftom a psychologist who was supposed to be sorting out CBT for DD.
She was quite fixated on how 'brilliantly' we coped and what a 'wonderful' job we were doing and how 'marvelous' we were to have dealt with things.

We sat there like hmm as we were there because we weren't coping or managing and didn't know how to deal with her.

The bit when she cheerfully jumped up announcing 'you simply must have couple time' was the best bit.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 16:01:13

Opportunity class?
What the hell was that? grin angry

Funny. That was exactly what you said when I complained at the time!

EstherRancid Tue 26-Feb-13 16:04:36

thanks for explaining the history behind 'caring carrots' grin

i'm a long-time lurker, serial NCer and was always baffled but highly amused by the CC reference!

i've got a whole freaking veg rack of caring carrots - from the school nurse who advised me to get into a strict routine to get DD (ASD?SPD) to go to sleep and how I should just leave her to get dressed by herself if she was resistant grin

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 16:06:41

My feeling is that most of the SN industry is largely pointless.
I haven't come across one person who has been able to add something useful to my life or my child's-apart from those I have actively sought out and paid asnd myself. Obv. grin

grinnbareit Tue 26-Feb-13 16:20:52

starlightmckenzie I proper fell for that! the carrot stuff! sat here scratching my head until I noticed the next post by hazeyjane btw thanks hazey!

Can I contribute now?, please do not post another link starlight grin

previous teacher: "Mrs grin you need to talk to your Ds (aspergers) about controlling his childish outbursts during lesson time its simply unacceptable"

me: "I believe that something is bothering him in the class room, possibly the noise (from info I had been told), have you tried the strategies suggested by the outreach team?"

teacher: "The noise level is perfectly fine to me so it should be acceptable for xxxx, I'm afraid I will NOT be treating your son any different than any other child, after all I am only here for his education (which was non existant at the time). He just needs to learn to listen to instructions instead of constantly fidgeting in his chair"

wasuup3000 Tue 26-Feb-13 16:25:58

My son's teachers are in "yes, we do that" land at the moment...which is not much different from caring carrot and equally as patronising.

Bluebirdonmyshoulder Tue 26-Feb-13 16:36:17

Does this count - MIL told me that she thought all bluechick's problems were due to her small size and told me if I started weaning her she'd start to progress. This was at 3 months. So yes, all to do with being and nothing to do with the chromosome abnormality then MIL? hmm

WilsonFrickett Tue 26-Feb-13 17:29:24

bird that's a passive-agressive carrot in my book. A PArrot, if you will.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 17:35:18


grin. Sublime. thanks wilson

ROFL.... Parrot. Excellent.

BaggyKnickers Tue 26-Feb-13 17:47:26

Reminds me of a favourite joke - what's orange and sounds like a parrot?

A carrot!

ApplePippa Tue 26-Feb-13 18:13:13

I was advised by a SALT who specialised in ASD that all I had to do to get DS to do anything he didn't want to do was wave a PECS card at him.

Apparently PECS cards are magical that way....

Bluebirdonmyshoulder Tue 26-Feb-13 18:14:20

LOVE 'parrot' for passive aggressive carrot! Inspired wilson!

MIL has lobbed a few parrots my way actually, including implying that the major reason for my upset over bluechick's condition was that it would interfere with my plans to go back to work.

FWIW I decided pretty much straightaway not to go back to work and i haven't given it a second thought since, much less ever mentioned it to MIL!

Oh yes - PECS. The teacher at the Opportunity class, - supported by the SALT (who was flirting with the caretaker) refused to give ds a biscuit when he asked for it verbally in full sentence with 'please' on the end and TOLD him to use his PECS card.

He picked up the nearest one without looking at it and repeated his verbal request whist offering the card, to have the teacher look at his card, note it was a crisp and give him a crisp (which he didn't like).

They then put on his IEP that he needed to learn 'discrimination'.

That was when I signed up for PECS training because I didn't frigging understand it.

MummytoMog Tue 26-Feb-13 18:58:04

About a year ago I got a brilliant email from MIL basically explaining how I could fix DD's speech delay following a short visit - will probably work for all of you too...

*DD was great and seemed to have come on a lot in getting more words. I put all her electronic toys away and spent more time with her - getting her to look at me as much as possible when I spoke toher etc.

Playing with the dough, matching cards, and crayons - I kept chatting about what she was doing and asked her what she wanted etc . - she joined in here and there and got more *things to say. The books - like the nursery rhymes - caught her attention quickly too and you'll be able to get a lot of interaction with those I think. *If you can have time with her when she gets your full attention and doesn't have any other aural distraction she'll come on very quickly now. She needs a face to look into and a commentary that engages her in what she's trying to do - and responds to her needs. As *gets more words and phrases she'lll soon develop the 'negotiation' skills to get what she wants - and that's a great step forward in preparation for play groups and nursery.

If only I'd realised I needed to talk to her, spend time with her and let her look at my face. All those months I wasted ignoring her, staying late at work to avoid her and hiding my face when I had to speak to her. And reading - why on earth didn't I think of reading to her...

BaggyKnickers Tue 26-Feb-13 19:03:59

Caring carrot for our LA exclusions manager who, after I had let rip about a child with PDA being permanently excluded for 'persistently failing to follow instruction', said 'Oh,it is difficult isn't it?'. angry

ApplePippa Tue 26-Feb-13 19:06:12

Oh yes Starlight, PECS used properly is fantastic and has helped DS's communication enormously. But some proffs just seem to see waving a few pictures about as the be-all and end-all.

A cheers Mummy. I'll ditch the special school, put all his electronic toys away and send him to the local comp. That'll fix him.

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Tue 26-Feb-13 19:15:00

Click here

This is still my favourite caring carrot. grin

BaggyKnickers Tue 26-Feb-13 19:16:04

Perhaps we could have a communal whip round for this and whenever anyone has a meeting lend it out grin

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 19:23:32

I like that carrot too much to stick pins in, Ellen.

I have just burst out laughing (bad idea trying to get ds to sleep) at that costume - I will imagine everyone at the meeting wearing one, which should calm any panic!

BaggyKnickers Tue 26-Feb-13 19:24:46

And of course a TAC meeting is a team around the carrot smile
<shuffles off embarrassed>

Really? I thought it was 'Talking About the Carrot' for as much good as it did us.

EstherRancid Tue 26-Feb-13 19:43:34

oohhh! i've had a pArrot too then <preens>

'D'sis has recently told me all this reading i'm doing on t'internet is making DD worse, i'm looking into it far too deeply.

yeah, thanks for that 'D'sis, i'll be sure to remind her Psych/SALT/GP/OT that next time we meet hmm

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 19:49:04

The costume is fabulous. Perhaps MNHQ could buy it/employ someone to wear it and we could send them like ninja to profs who irritate.

Carrot Campaign.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 19:50:11

In family parrots should be BBQed.

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 19:52:18

ooh, me, me, I'll wear the carrot costume, I've always had a strange hankering to be someone in a costume handing out leaflets.

I've said too much haven't I.

Bluebirdonmyshoulder Tue 26-Feb-13 20:27:17

I would fully support a carrot and parrot campaign!

hazey I will pay you good money to dress as a carrot and go and harass my MIL! Name your price!

BaggyKnickers Tue 26-Feb-13 20:45:12

Maybe we could get a job lot of postcards made up and send to various prof's/LA's - 'Thanks a bunch for being a caring carrot. Love and honks MNSN'

EstherRancid Tue 26-Feb-13 20:48:24

Baggy grin

with a trademark 'goose in flight' insignia - ala Flashing Blade/Pink Panther?

Every year we could have the Carrot Oscars, where someone in that costume takes a baby carrot and presents it to the person with the most votes from the nominations.

They will have to say something like 'And the winner is X, for yyyyyyyy' with the actual yyyyyyy being the direct quote/performace they were nominated for with a certificate showing the text.

Bluebirdonmyshoulder Tue 26-Feb-13 20:57:54

Oh pleeeeeease can we do the carrot oscars???!!!!!

Thinking of nominees already!

EstherRancid Tue 26-Feb-13 20:59:46

or Star we could all send a mini-carrot to everyone who deserves one, then have a national count for the winner!

like collecting pokemon or moshi monsters grin

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 21:01:03

Lets have a nominees there'd and then vote for our favourate.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 21:01:50

Thread, not there'd.

I will buy a keyboard soon I promise.

marchduck Tue 26-Feb-13 21:34:23

Hazey, hope it goes well tomorrow and minimal carrots in attendance at your meeting.
I once got told that it was nice that DD was always well dressed....

hazeyjane Tue 26-Feb-13 22:05:42

Thankyou Marchduck. I can't wait to get it out of the way tbh!

I will let you know if I have any nominees for the carrot oscars.

Handywoman Tue 26-Feb-13 22:06:09

PARROT!!! :-) :-) :-)

MummytoMog Tue 26-Feb-13 22:24:11

I'm often told how beautiful DD is. After all, it doesn't matter that she can't talk, so long as she's ornamental.

bialystockandbloom Tue 26-Feb-13 22:34:35

Ooh love this thread grin

Can I give a retrospective carrot oscar to ds's previous Early Years intervention officer who reminded me that I "must remember to enjoy him"

PolterGoose Tue 26-Feb-13 23:25:09

*Can a parrot
Eat a carrot
Standing on his head?
If I did that my mum would send me
Straight upstairs to bed.*

Spike Milligan

WilsonFrickett Tue 26-Feb-13 23:27:04

Ooh MummyMog your MIL needs a whole different class of parrot. Sweet baby Cheesus shock

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 00:07:13

MummytoMog. I missed those pearls of wisdom! I think your MIL get the carrot.

Put away electronic toys, talk to child, read, show face ........... It's so obvious now she's said it!

MummytoMog Wed 27-Feb-13 00:11:46

I know. I couldn't believe how stupid I had been. Obviously, nearly a year later, having followed this careful treatment plan, DD is talking perfectly and reciting Shakespeare.

Actually she is doing the second one, but only because we have fun with echolalia ;)

justaboutchilledout Wed 27-Feb-13 00:56:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

inappropriatelyemployed Wed 27-Feb-13 10:28:34

I love this sort of passive aggressive mother-in-lawing.

Mine once told me that her eldest daughter - rich doctor, no children - was obviously a very good parent (??) because she refused to have children only to 'dump' them in child care (unlike me that is!).

See even a non-parent is a better parent than me! grin

What does get my goat about all this 'make sure you interact with them', 'no electronic toys malarkey' is that, although it is obvious common sense, it seems to be based on some warped idea of the perfection of the past. As if in the 1960s/70s, all mums were lovely cake-baking, Maria von Trapp like goddesses, singing and interacting with their children all day long. But then came nasty working mums and ipads and kids were fed their tea by televisions.

Have they not seen Mad Men? Seriously, the reality is women stayed at home sometimes because they thought they had not choice (it was the proper thing to do) and children were expected to be seen and not heard and stay out of the way. As children, we were kicked out of the house to play all day and each day in the hols and expected to do as we were told and not bother the 'grown ups'.

My MIL has never sat and played a game with her kids in her life.

Yet we all run around putting loads of pressure on ourselves to do the right thing. We were brought up by this generation but now have to listen to their crappy whimsical nostalgia about stuff they never did.

WilsonFrickett Wed 27-Feb-13 10:39:01

That is so true ^^
Even now (after approximately one million caring carrots of 'try turn-taking games') I still have to remind myself to buy DS board games at Christmas and birthdays. I used to get board games as a child, but no-one would ever play them with me (only child). At least my DM isn't caring carrot about that, she sat like this shock when DS played Guess Who with me on Boxing day.

porridgeLover Wed 27-Feb-13 11:35:51

Campaign for a carrot emoticon??

My most teeth grating comment was from my 'D'Sis. When I told her about his diagnosis, her reaction was 'but, he's fine really isn't he?'
Well, he is. Apart from an inability to read social cues, to cope with new sensory experiences, to handle new food (this was overseas where he wouldn't eat anything as it 'tasted funny').
Apart from all his movement problems which mean he cant ride a bike, use knife and fork together, has had huge problems learning to write.
Apart from his behaviour which can lead him to lash out at his sisters.

But, no, he's fine actually. No worries.

tabulahrasa Wed 27-Feb-13 11:38:39

My favourite one was DS's maths teacher a couple of years ago...

DS has had (specifically for his writing issues, he's had more intervention than just this) 4 years of OT, done 3 different handwriting programmes at primary and has done daily exercises with theraputty and what have you since he was 7, so he can now write his name legibly and possibly a short sentence after that...any more and he can't even read it back.

Obviously this impacts his maths, the teacher was complaining that the shaped pens DS has didn't write numbers evenly because he has a terrible pen grip and could we give him ordinary pens or pencils, I said yes, I gave him those pens because he finds them easier, but if it's not working for you that's fine.

He then said...

You know you get worksheets for handwriting, my son had messy handwriting so I spent a few weeks doing those with him and it's all sorted now. hmm

The reason it's my favourite is because I actually did lose my temper with him (he'd already annoyed me by only addressing DP and insisting that DS's lack of progress was fine) I told him that DS had had 4 years of OT, done 3 different handwriting programmes and that I'd spent years doing hand exercises with him - but no, I'd never done WORKSHEETS angry and with all due respect I don't think they're really likely to resolve it when nothing else is going to...

Usually I just nod and smile, not that saying any of that made any difference to the teacher, but it did make the student teacher he had with him look at him in absolute horror - which made it worth it.

inappropriatelyemployed Wed 27-Feb-13 11:38:47

Or, 'as long as he is happy' or 'I'm sure he is not even aware of it'.......Grrrrrr.

My MIL told me after reading the Ed Pysch report in to my DD which stated that it was difficult to get her to engage and focus on activities and that during carpet time she needed one on one support to stay on the carpet that pre school just needed to make things more interesting and then she would engage!


denial much? And she's a primary school teacher.

First line of ds' first proposed statement:

DS is a lovely looking boy with a winning smile.

I kid you not.

inappropriatelyemployed Wed 27-Feb-13 11:43:59

tabulahrasa - Grrrr for you!

It's the same mentality that allows a teacher to say to me when my Aspie 10 year old is refusing to go inside a class because of a bad day of anxiety, 'my daughter used to be clingy too, I had to put my foot down'.

If someone said that now I would say, here you go then, you get him in and best of luck with those methods!

bochead Wed 27-Feb-13 13:01:29

We do need a carrot of the month award - shall we start a thread for nominations! The best could then be posted on AIBU for giggles, (step away from the edge boc - you have a meeting later blush.

My sister gave me an IKEA carrot for Xmas. She thinks I should take it to all meetings and plonk it in the middle of the table and sing to it when it's obvious that I can't fix stupid. Song choice should be "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".

Caring carrot came about because apparently if I sliced DS's packed lunch carrots he'd have been miraculously cured of the severe anxiety & ASD traits that led to him wetting himself 3-4 times a day in reception. confused.

The BEST professionals I've come across have been the ones who were able to say "I'm not sure", or "I don't know" in response to a question. Those are the only types it's worth seeing a second time.

I've long been personally convinced you could cut out 3/4 of the names on the payroll of the SN industry and only see a marked improvement in outcomes for children as a result. As we can't do that I'd like to propose a motion that all meetings should have an a4 sheet sent out the week before listing the desired outcome, and be forbidden from lasting longer than 20 minutes. Oh and that meetings about meetings and any form of panel other than the Tribunal one should be forbidden outright.

oh and before anyone asks - yes I have tried lavender oil to help with my sons sleep issues, night waking and sleep walking. A saftey gate that's capable of holding his weight at the top of the stairs would still be of more benefit though.

WilsonFrickett Wed 27-Feb-13 13:24:19

Actually snorted at the thought of the carrot coming out when you realise you can't fix stupid boc Maybe we someone who is not me could embroider that on the green sticky-up bits of our award?

moondog Wed 27-Feb-13 15:23:55

Although I have been alternately grinnig and wincing at these, it must be said that many many people are not doing the bleeding obvious with their kids, so that must be flagged up. The folk seeing you do not know how you live your lives or what kind of person you are and remember, they are seeing hundreds of people.
Many are totally outrageous though.

Tabulah, I wonder why your ds did so many different things if progress was so limited? Why didn't the OT change tack?

PS Star, were you not aware that every single bloody report starts with Sion/David/Lisa/Jeremy is a delightful child?

It is so incredibly irrelevant and vacuous.

moondog Wed 27-Feb-13 15:24:46

'I've long been personally convinced you could cut out 3/4 of the names on the payroll of the SN industry and only see a marked improvement in outcomes for children as a result. As we can't do that I'd like to propose a motion that all meetings should have an a4 sheet sent out the week before listing the desired outcome, and be forbidden from lasting longer than 20 minutes. Oh and that meetings about meetings and any form of panel other than the Tribunal one should be forbidden outright.'

I'm with you all the way on this Bochead!

MummytoMog Wed 27-Feb-13 15:34:03

DD had a lovely 'report' written on her at her IEP update meeting yesterday. I will have to cut and paste some super awesomely helpful sections for you all to enjoy.

My favourite useful way to meet is to be presented with a report during the meeting and then have it read to me for fifteen minutes. DD can't read big words yet. I can.

shock mummymog

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 15:46:57

Ooo yes The very helpful.

tabulahrasa Wed 27-Feb-13 15:49:38

'Tabulah, I wonder why your ds did so many different things if progress was so limited? Why didn't the OT change tack?'

That was progress, honestly, lol...For a while there it looked like he'd not even be able to write that much and combine that with the fact that he can be a bit resistant to interventions, he's done pretty well.

bochead Wed 27-Feb-13 16:38:26

I really don't mind if a professional wants to brainstorm some stuff (done it several times to come up with suitable leisure activities in the area for DS with ASD outreach for instance).

I've just agreed to mentor some Mums for the indy charity that helped me keep my head on straight in the run up to Tribunal. Although I really, really want to pay it forward, I'm a little concerned that my increasingly beligerant attitude to "parenting support workers" and the like may do more harm than good. blush.

I'm taking my Ikea carrot to the first session on Friday, if only to raise a smile.

moondog Wed 27-Feb-13 17:10:30

Oh ok. Just interested as he certainly gets top marks for tenacity if he did all that! [smil]

tabulahrasa Wed 27-Feb-13 17:23:41

Oh he's stubborn tenacious, lol

Oh - one to wind up Moondog

DS' previous HT: Motivation needs to be intrinsic, not extrinsic!

moondog Wed 27-Feb-13 17:33:32

I'd be asking for the evidence for that particular assertion (oh and would also ask if she comes to work because yunno it's extrinsically reinforcing to be with kiddies.)

bialystockandbloom Wed 27-Feb-13 20:27:05

Our first paed's report did indeed start off with "ds is a delightful child"

But hahahahahahahhahahahahahaHA at "lovely looking with a winning smile"

grin grin grin <headdesk>

I got it changed to something like:

DS is a capable learner with the right support

or some such. It's a long time since I've looked at the statement and now he's at a special school, I'm probably the only one who ever has.

Also, ds' paed wrote in her report 'ds has some strengths. In particular, he is a visual learner'.

Got that taken out too. WTF is a visual learner?

What I saw when I read that was a lifetime full of badly delivered PECS and I was going to stop that in it's tracks.

bialystockandbloom Wed 27-Feb-13 20:45:26

More like 'now and next' boards!

But of course he's a visual learner - he has asd, right? You know they are always visual learners...

bochead Wed 27-Feb-13 22:14:52

Visual learner is a really wierd one for me as it's such a complex mix for DS.

DS is severely dyslexic cos of visual tracking and convergence issues yet going to a school where BSL is regularly used in PE, assembly and some mainstream lessons has been of amazing theraputic value for his receptive language and non-verbal skills. We use every kind of visual aid known to man for general organisation and planning as we are both scatty as fook. His handwriting & drawing skills are abysmal (LOTS of therapy) yet the 3D stuff he produces is outstanding.

His visual skills are both his greatest strength and one of his biggest weaknesses as far as school goes, yet I hear this phrase trotted out so often. leaves me well confuddled. I suppose I'm trying to say he's a child for whom visual aids can be of tremendous benefit, but the specific aids needed aren't often of the bog standard "ASD therefore he needs this stock kit item" variety.

Now and next boards had me in stitches - they were wheeled out at a time when DS had NO concept of time elapsed whatsoever - talk about useless. Moondogs clock and calender idea were the foundations needed before a now and next board could even be attempted - 2 years later lol!

Imagination - it's really lacking in the SN industry at times isn't it!

MummytoMog Wed 27-Feb-13 23:23:30

Oh yeah, the visual learner line. If I hear that one more time I might have to say something very rude. PECS was fine, but only really useful for about two months. Now they're onto colourful semantics, because shes such a visual learner and has an amazing 'almost photographic memory'. I have a photographic memory. It's not really all that useful to be honest. I'd rather they spent more time doing social groups and turn taking and less time wafting stupid bits of card in front of her that she just reads anyway

bochead Wed 27-Feb-13 23:40:45

My late Dad had a photographic memory, meant his logic/comprehension was sometimes a little "odd", especially if he was tired/unwell (we think now he would have qualified for a dyspraxic diagnosis had such things been around).

It's a VERY unsual savant-style skill that would scare the bejesus out of any caring carrot were they to come across it in RL. (A child or parent able to quote the SenCop in full at will anyone?) Never met anyone else with a true photographic memory.

MerryCouthyMows Thu 28-Feb-13 04:59:02

My latest one from the HV today : "Are you sure you are praising him for attempting to sign, because then he will start using more signs and be motivated to use other signs too".

No, oh wise HV who has been working with children for less time than I have had DC's with speech delays, I thought he would magically start using Makaton if I left the worksheet in front of him, ignored him continuously and didn't get him milk when he signs for it. Because that would make sense, wouldn't it...

<<Bashes head on desk>>

MerryCouthyMows Thu 28-Feb-13 05:04:16

And apparently they don't start 'proper' speech therapy until 3yo here now. Just Makaton worksheets until then. No answer as to WHAT their SALT difficulty is, no help on how to get them to talk (other than 7 pages FULL of caring carrot advice, containing such gems as 'play with your child', 'sit facing them', 'be sure to over exaggerate your speech')...

Basically a whole ton of no shit Sherlock for an entire year, all the while he is struggling to pick up the signs because of his Hypermobility, he is trying to eat the laminated PECS cards I have made and doing a surprisingly stellar job of it too, considering they're laminated, and bugger all else.

How many caring carrots should I give for 7 pages of no shit Sherlock advice?!

signandsmile Thu 28-Feb-13 08:04:43

oooo, just realised I was carroted by my SiL,
"why don't they teach him to speak instead of teaching him to sign?"

so that's what I was supposed to do Doh!

bochead Thu 28-Feb-13 08:08:04

I got a couple of sing and sign DVD's off ebay and used them as a guide for our own version every morning for 15 minutes. I'm not pretending in anyway it's akin to any sort of professional therapy but as a source of inspiration for your own DIY while you wait for the real deal it might act as a source of inspiration?

(If that's a Grandma suck eggs comment - forgive me).

Oh yes. DS did colourful semantics. I thought the idea was interesting so engaged with an open mind.

What a load of rubbish. Perhaps for other children it might be of benefit but honestly, I think it pure benefit was to give the SALT and then TA 'something to do'.

MummytoMog Thu 28-Feb-13 09:55:05

When they say 'photographic' they mean that she remembers stuff very easily, but it's not like she looks at a page and can reproduce it exactly. They mean like my memory, where I have ridiculously good short term recall, but I couldn't look at a page or a picture and reproduce it later (but it did make me very good at continuity when I worked in films). The thing is, like with me, is that it's not just visual. This is the child who picks up theme tunes and phrases in one hearing (and I think a lot of echolalic kids do the same) so she obviously is an aural learner as well. So what is the use of saying she's a visual learner?

Oh, and why do they always say shit like 'we think DD is really bright' when you know full well they don't. They're saying that to appease me, but there's no real way of gauging how bright she is at the moment, obviously I think she's bright, but I'm her mother.

I'm not mad keen on colourful semantics. They want to use a lot of photo cards as well and PECS died a very brutal death in our household (DS chewed up all the cards in DD's PECS book. Then put them in the woodburner). I don't think photo cards are really going to work any better.

I have masses of PECS cards that I laminated left over btw if anyone wants me to post them out.

Ah mummy yes professionals are always saying ds' is bright, just before they rattle off that they are working with him 3 levels below the national curriculum.

Indpendent professionals also have their moments. Both our SALT and EP have attempted to reassure me by stating that ds doesn't JUST have ASD, he also has a lot going for him because his dad is very intelligent.

Er - yeah. Thanks hmm

ouryve Thu 28-Feb-13 10:06:32

starlight - DS1's last statement started "DS1 is a happy boy"

I made them change that. He defaults to sullen and angry.

wasuup3000 Thu 28-Feb-13 10:57:33

I got 2 carrots today from the head at my daughters school:

"What about when she goes to train station, how is she going to cope then"?

^^DD doesn't like assemblies because of the noise, hustle, bustle, crowds and erm germs...Major meltdown today because she didn't want to go to school because of this.

"Does she get her own way when she has meltdowns"!

<<Headbangs again wall>> biscuit

zzzzz Thu 28-Feb-13 16:24:57

Smile just smile they will go away eventually.

bochead Thu 28-Feb-13 16:27:30

Star your "bright" comments really resonated here - got that one at parents evening yesterday just before being told that DS has been moved to the pivot levels on the NC (what they do in desperation when a kid is so far behind the expected NC levels that even referring to them in passing has become a waste of time yet "progress" still needs to be proven.).

He's so "bright" is right up there with "have you tried lavender oil" on my list of most despised caring carrot comments of all time. I'm at my wits end now over his lack of academic progress and they tell me he's "bright" angry confused angry

moondog Thu 28-Feb-13 18:42:54

Lavendar oil????

Unbloddy believable.
What numpty said that?

inappropriatelyemployed Thu 28-Feb-13 19:01:39

Well, if he is bright and far behind his peers, my question would be what the bloody hell are they doing to close the gap between ability and performance!

Because they don't mean that they think he is bright. What they are 'really' saying is:

'We have low expectations for your child but don't want to spend any money on him, so he isn't capable of anything, but can do everything without help'

or that he is bright for a child with ASD who we have been trained to have low expectations for.

inappropriatelyemployed Thu 28-Feb-13 19:23:44

Yes, that might be what they mean, but that is what I would be saying.

BaggyKnickers Thu 28-Feb-13 19:41:46

Talking of lavender reminded me of this old Sendist case about an exclusion here. The child had ASD and one of the strategies used by school was to spray him with lavender oil shock

PolterGoose Thu 28-Feb-13 19:47:28

I have suggested lavender for helping with sleep before (worked for us) should I be blush

bochead Thu 28-Feb-13 19:48:58

PIVATS (sorry got spelling wrong) actually looks like a massive investment of time and energy for the teacher.
To willingly take on this burden of paperwork is very admirable. In terms of actually WANTING to help DS generally this school deserves mucho kudos. I really do appreciate the effort, but am just not sure how it's going to improve the outcome iyswim.

It also really hurts to get the formal acknowledgement after spending the whole of KS1 being condescendingly told "he'll catch up" by every caring carrot in the system from the Ed Pysch to teachers to now see it being made official that actually no he won't. Unless of course you consider NC levels of 2ish by the end of Primary to be "caught up" in a child that everyone said for years had nothing wrong with him.

Bright to the general population means on course for medical school or Oxbridge, "bright" in SN terms means "presents as a having slightly higher intellectual capacity than a chicken".

The lavender oil is the standard caring carrot suggestion to hearing that DS has major sleep maintenance issues Moondog. Maybe it makes you "bright" enough to accept the caring carrots diabolically low expectations if you drink it? I dunno anymore.

BaggyKnickers Thu 28-Feb-13 19:49:57

No Polter, I am just surprised at a school spraying a child but maybe its a known strategy? Just never heard of it before.

moondog Thu 28-Feb-13 19:54:19

I've come to the conclusion that one is best off accepting from the outset that the best person to help your child is you yourself.

bochead Thu 28-Feb-13 20:18:15

moondog - yup gotta agree with you there. The buck stops at home.

moondog Thu 28-Feb-13 20:20:40

By chasing after help you end up stressing yourself out and wasting energy that could be better deployed elsewhere.
I haven't come across one person in the industry who could offer solid measurable help.
Not bloody one.

MareeyaDolores Thu 28-Feb-13 23:41:09

Ds now sees a very nice carrot for 30min/week, who listens to school woes.
My tally chart of morning meltdowns has demonstrated moderate effectiveness.

MerryCouthyMows Fri 01-Mar-13 01:27:27

Boch - apparently NC lvl 4 IS 'caught up' for DD. In Y10. Told to me by the caring carrot that is the HLTA that deals with her. Yes, because it's normal to be at a 10yo's lvl at 15, isn't it?!

"But she's made so much progress in her time here"

"Yes, but it's not going to get her a C in any of her GCSE's to get her into college like you told me her progress would in Y9 when we were deciding options, is it?!"

(Can you tell I've just had DD's half-year report tonight, with nothing higher than a D grade on there - and many E / F / G?! Even her catering is only an E, and that's what she wanted to go to college doing.)

<<Bangs head on brick wall>>

bochead Fri 01-Mar-13 10:12:50

To be fair I've come across a few people who were able to help - trouble is 99% of the time they are in the private sector and boy are there barriers to the two sectors working together! The finance is just one barrier.

I'm still in shock at the positive response DS's school had to an external EP going in a couple of years back(they implemented all her suggestions that didn't require outside expertise, eg all those it was in their power to do so). That however is very much the exception and NOT the norm, the common response is extreme defensiveness. DS's school suffered at Ofstead time, while others in the area that are horrible for SN kids got "outstanding" gradings.

DS's NHS SALT is A-fooking mazing, but she only sees him 3x a term and this year his TA is a bit dodgy, so her efforts are diluted to say the least. The state insists she spend all her time in meetings about meetings rather than DOING. Oh and she's surrounded by professionals from other disciplines who are carrots extraordinaire. How she stays sane I'll never know.

WilsonFrickett Fri 01-Mar-13 11:22:25

Oh YY to that boc. The reaction to my private ABA consultant at DS school couldn't have been bettered. So defensive! If I'd displayed those behaviours to anyone on a professional basis I would have been disciplined.

One of my favourites is when I mentioned that ds' had made NO progress in school to the Autism Advisory Teacher - Her response:

'Mrs Starlight, DS' autism isn't going to go away you know!'

No, but I'll bloody well make sure YOU do! That was the last time I saw her.

inappropriatelyemployed Fri 01-Mar-13 12:31:11

DS's school suffered at Ofstead time, while others in the area that are horrible for SN kids got "outstanding" gradings.

Beware the outstanding school - that is my experience too!

Caring carrot this morning: TA 'why don't you stay in class and watch the other children's presentations, that will be so nice for you'

DS hmm 'I don't care about the other children's presentations'

TA 'well I think it would be very nice for you to see them'

DS 'why? I don't care about their presentations'

TA 'well it would'

DS 'no it wouldn't'

Me 'if you watch their presentations and try and remember something about wch of them, we can go outside on the climbing frame for ten minutes after and chat about them'

DS 'ok'

While on climbing frame, we discuss the presentations and why people might want us to watch them.

Caring carrots deliver all they have got and think about what is nice for them to see happen with little SEN children - all lovely and included being forced to watch other people's presentations when they have NO motivation to do so.

I imagine this kind of conversation is repeated ad nauseum all day.

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