Here some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Moondog training - thank you

(37 Posts)
Bluebirdonmyshoulder Sun 24-Feb-13 10:44:40

Thanks to moondog and your colleague for a fascinating day yesterday, really enjoyed it. Thanks for the links you emailed me, haven't had a chance to look at them yet but I will.

And to messmonster for organising, and for the chat too!

moondog Sun 24-Feb-13 11:03:24

It was great to meet you all. My partner in crime and I had a blast.
Really interested to know how you get on. The stuff I am very into is TAGteach combined with Precision Teaching. There's mention of it in what I sent you.

Yes, thank you. It was excellent and gave me the boost I needed to get on with things.

The real difference I think between your 'advice' and ideas is that you were able to demonstrate that they work, and they don't need a leap of faith into something or someone without explanation. It's what makes it so positive.

I'm not sure I received an email though. Was I supposed to?

btw, can you clicker/PT picking up a pencil and making a mark to help with pencil grip? (suppose I could always try it, - data will tell me after all grin)

moondog Sun 24-Feb-13 11:52:31

Star, I sent a presentation on TAG to Bluebird as she is particularly into it.It includes data on PT and TAG. I can send it to you too if you like.Believe me, I can send you tonnes of stuff-it's more a case of how much you can cope with. grin

Yes you can. We do a lot of stuff like that. My dd (shameless boast) has beautiful cursive handwriting. Nowt to do with innate talent and everything to do with Precision Teaching

messmonster Sun 24-Feb-13 23:37:30

Hi Bluebird sorry, just seen this.

Lovely to meet you and the other MNers I managed to chat to yday. Was such a full on day, that I know I didn't chat to everyone which is a shame.

Thanks to Moondog and her colleague for another really inspiring day. I have loads of thoughts buzzing around and a plan of action for DD starting school which is brilliant smile

Was great to chat to you Bluebird your DD looked so sweet, I wish you all the very best with her smile

MerryCouthyMows Mon 25-Feb-13 01:23:24

Wish I could have come, but childcare was impossible. Story of my life. wink

Yes please. I'd like the contents of your head. Hoping to get at least a proportion of it next year......

Is there any chance of the Interactive Diary presentation though. I'm having a bit of a struggle with the school. Parents have very little credibility, even with well-meaning staff.

tryingtokeepintune Mon 25-Feb-13 11:13:03

Just want to say how much I learnt on the day. It was great to meet some of you but sorry there was no time to chat to more people - just so much going on.

So thanks again to messmonster for organizing it and to moondog and colleague for such an information packed day. I was exhausted when I got home- in fact, I nearly fell asleep on the train home.

Moondog may I pm you about PT and handwriting?

moondog Mon 25-Feb-13 13:41:04

Yes. Maybe ask here (if not private) so all can share?
Trying are you the signer par extraordinaire?
I wanted to talk to you more about this.
Can we here on MN?

I would have fallen asleep too on the train, had I not been seatless and surrounded by pissed up football fans all the way home. Made for some amusing interaction however. grin

moondog Mon 25-Feb-13 13:42:07

Yes Star.
Also working on article on this with a couple of teachers so hope to get that out there somewhere soon....

signandsmile Mon 25-Feb-13 19:54:37

Hi Moondog, not sure about 'par extrordinaire' signing, but think you might mean me?? hmm

the day was fabulous! I have already started to use some of the ideas, (and have been raving about the day to my PGCE Mentor too, wink)

am gonna bribe ds's SLT with a lunch invite, (as we have had our 'termly' visit sad) so after discussing with her I can say to school that SLT recommends the interactive diary.wink (and it would hit all of his language bits of his IEP and Annual Review, and give data to prove his progress!) Yay!

moondog Mon 25-Feb-13 20:12:47

I do!
You mentioned resistance from professionals in the past to signing.
I wanted to ask on what grounds this was? hmm

Fab that he has 400 signs.
Amazing!

messmonster Mon 25-Feb-13 21:30:06

400 signs - OMG! that's amazing.

My little DD has about 12 that she does reliably and another 30 or 40 that she's aware of and can approximate when modelled for her.

What's the secret smile?

tryingtokeepintune Tue 26-Feb-13 00:40:51

No, not private.

I just wanted to know how to use Precision Teaching for handwriting as the saying out loud bit would probably not apply?

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 08:24:04

The principle is that there are modalities in and out.
See page 38 of this u/g thesis (it's supervised by Jesus Rozales-Ruiz, one of the kings of PT hence inclusion)
Here
So for handwriting, the input would be maybe 'hear' (if someone dictating) or 'think'). The output is 'write'

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 08:29:00

If you are practicing letters on their own, think of criteria for correct and to begin with, you need to have one only. What will make the letter a 'correct' and what an LO (learning opp)
If you are practicing 'o' for example, it might be that the two ends join.
If a 't', that the horizontal stroke crosses each side of vertical line.

The one minute timings mean the child can produce a lot of output.
I combing PT and TAG so have done a lot of this sort of stuff with my own children. They hear the click if they have reached criteria but it's still happening in a minute.

I'm aware we moved very fast through these things but time was of the essence. There will be a day's PT workshop at the upcoming conference (I will be there, making a niusance of myself) so well worth attending.

Do not underestimate value of that lined paper, where you have a middle line and a top one so it's easier to see where letters start/finish. I cannot for the life of me work out why school's do not use this and yet then moan that kids have poor writing. They have no salient guides to help them! Bonkers! .

signandsmile Tue 26-Feb-13 12:06:42

INteresting... (our school uses the middle line paper for their 'handwriting' books. it really helps)

mess yeah, he developed them over about 2years, (we started signing with him when he was just under 2, [he had the same 7 spoken words from about 14 months to over 4] he was purely receptive for about the first 6 months, and then started to produce.. he was upto 3 and 4 sign 'sentences' by the time he was 4. We always used SSE (Sign supported English, so BSL signs but english word order and grammar, and we spoke at the same time.)

I am fluent, so just signed everything I said, and he picked up the signs he wanted/needed. (altho I was using short clear sentences only).

I just wanted to give him a method to communicate, but actually I think it benefitted him in other ways, using sign language means you have to look at the person who is 'talking', and I think he is more NT in this than he would have been without this... You are also using facial expression and body movement to emphasise emotion, which makes it easier to 'read' what someone is feeling.

moondog I am happy to discuss the professionals responses,(crappy as they were!) they fell into two catagories, basic ignorance; "signing slows aquisition of speech", "signing does not work with children with ASD, as it is transitory" and faux professional. "we don't use SSE, we use Signalong". Really funny thing is when I tounge in cheek asked them for the evidence behind the choice of signalong, as (of course) wink they must have made that decision on the basis of evidence of outcomes for kids like ds...??? it never arrived, but they stopped insisting we change what was clearly working for ds. (I knew they used signalong instead of makaton because it was cheaper, and they didn't expect kids like ds to be capable of using more complex signing systems like SSE).

Sorry huge post blush

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 15:18:51

It infuriates me when people spout nonsense like that based on nothing more then prejudice. How pgrimly pleasing it must have been for you when they shut up about it. grin

I think your point about having to look at the signer is very important. You don't have to loo kwhen someone speaks. What is so great about PECS-that mandatory physical approach and 'pester' for access to reinforcers.
Also why I am a bit dubious about PECS style apps. A danger that this will be bypassed.

signandsmile Tue 26-Feb-13 16:12:36

Indeed, I think the sad thing is that if i hadn't been a professional myself I probably wouldn't have the confidence to challenge their views, as the 'ignorance' was from the HT of a special school, and another HT from a MS school with an ASD unit.

It makes me soooo mad angry

it's interesting, now I think about it, that I found myself treating him like a Deaf child, which means if I touch him now (tap his shoulder for example) he tends to be more likely to give me attention.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 16:53:11

Which is why animal trainers are so fab at working with children with SN.
Minmal language, lots of gesture, unambiguous instruction, instantly reinforcing desired behaviour and so on...

'Which is why animal trainers are so fab at working with children with SN.'

But if you say that to any professional that I have come across, they'd be treating you as inhumane and possibly requesting SS take a look.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 17:49:03

Bluebird said she had decided to treat her dd like her rescue dogs.
Sounds great.

Incidently, I tried throwing a few free minstrels around yesterday and today. Boy have I found two very complient and happy children.

In fact they both did lost of work for NOTHING having already had the minstrels.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 17:55:51

grin
When B does her training the length and breadth of the county as she does, I always know as I hear people talking about 'that woman throwing sweets around'

I've also tried a couple of

'Shall we do headsprout now?'

Don't answer that, I have a better idea. How about we have a minstrel first, and then do Headsprout?

By mixing it up all over the place they just do as they're told because it's a good life.

Not sure how long it will last but it's good for now.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 18:37:40

Sounds great.
Just like Karen Pryor, lobbing the occasional fish at a reluctant dolphin.
You really must read DSTD.
Another fun read is 'What Shamu taught me about life love and marriage'.

People often focus on the EIBI aspect of ABA and forget (not you obviously) that these scientific principles are in action, all over the place and all of the time. It's the smart folk that harness them.

by the way, my life doesn't revolve around minstrels. I just had a packet to keep them in line on the journey to the meet up on friday. The fact I have any left is quite frankly a miracle.

moondog Tue 26-Feb-13 18:43:03

grin

tryingtokeepintune Wed 27-Mar-13 19:23:42

Moondog I just looked properly at the Basic Skills Checklists by Breitenbach and it is soooo good. Lots of ideas on where to go next. If only I had it before I struggled teaching ds to tell the time as I did not make sure he REALLY knew the hour hand and the minute hand.

However, what does (no regrouping) and (no renaming) on addition and subtraction mean?

Eg. Double digit numbers (one regrouping), double digit numbers (one renaming).

moondog Wed 27-Mar-13 21:41:38

It is very good indeed.
It should also give you the confidence to design your own task analyses.
We do these in two columns, these being 'Adult does' and 'Child does'

So if you were looking at having breakfast for example it would start with Adult to: Say to child ' It's time for breakfast'
Child to: Walk to the table

Time telling is one of my pet things to teach. It is so complex and most teachers haven't a clue how to break it down, nor do they realize what pre-requisites are needed to really get it (eg big and little hand discrimination, hands move clockwise, concept of counting in multiples of five and so on).
I went throguh it all with my children and even stuck a piece of blue paper over every big clock hand in the house (and a pink over every little one) to aid discrimination.

Regrouping just another term for carrying and borrowing.

tryingtokeepintune Thu 28-Mar-13 16:23:26

Thank you.

Wished I had thought of the blue and pick papers.

moondog Thu 28-Mar-13 19:31:42

That's the greatest gift ABA has given me.
Learning how to break a task down and consider each step and what might aid the child to learn it.
I had to work it out myself as none of those around my child have the slightest idea how to think like this (apart from those I have procured.).

Time. My 4 year old is quick, but I was able to fast realise that teaching half-past had to be broken into 'half past from 12-5' and 'half past from 6-11' because the little hand is below the number on the one side and above it on the other hmm.

And so what?

I have learned that a million tiny lessons is far better and quicker than banging on about a greater concept the child has no chance of learning and then giving up. If I had to spend a whole month on half-past 1 before moving on to half-past 2, so friggin what?

Inappropriatelyemployed Thu 28-Mar-13 21:36:34

But then many children don't learn to tell the time until they are 7 or 8 so perhaps it's a bit easier to introduce concepts like time more naturally at that age.

moondog Thu 28-Mar-13 21:37:52

If I did it again I would introduce only one hand at a time. Build-a-clock if you like. Still not sure whether I would start with big or little. Probably big actually.
Five...six...seven.
I wouldn't introduce 'past' at the outset as means nothing without he other hand.
Also would not go five..ten...fifteen,, quarter as assumes knowledge of multiples and fractions which probably not there (when teachers say they want to teach 'quarter past' I try to get them to understand they will be teaching it as a label and not to assume meaning of what 'quarter' is).

I'd have a clock with every minute labelled.

Only after that would introduce small hand and notion of 'past'

To polish to fluency, SAFMEDS and track on an SCC.
Then I'd introduce minute hand.

moondog Thu 28-Mar-13 21:42:24

Also a gerared clock vital eventually so kid can see how the hands work together and that they only go in one direction.
Timetimer and Joseph Joseph timers also better than egg times imho as they more closely approximate the look and workings of an analogue clock.

I agree IA. On reflection I would not be teaching her the time at all. But she is a competetive little minx and she is motivated by whatever her brother is doing which made me fall for it and get started, but with the luxury of not worrying about speed of acquisition iyswim.

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